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I'm sure we should not use the French title of an Italian opera as an example for anything; I doubt we should use the unEnglish La bohème at all. We should use what the general reader will recognize: La Bohème. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:20, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
What Voceditenore said. We already have an established system based on reliable sources. "Really folks, there are far more useful and interesting things for the Opera Project members to do on Wikipedia than flogging a dead horse". Well put. This project has always been more about content creation rather than pointless pedantry. Sorry, but I've got better things to do with my life than engage in endless discussions about the colour of the bikeshed. -- Folantin ( talk) 07:52, 3 May 2008 (UTC) There are two objections here:
Pmanderson: I suggest you either explain what system of opera title names you think we should have, or if you can't do this then remove the dispute tag and the RFC. It's unreasonable to challenge something you don't understand, when you have nothing to offer as a substitute. -- Kleinzach ( talk) 15:43, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Look, Pmanderson, you're confusing capitalization conventions used in English speaking countries for English words and titles (there is no dispute about those) with the capitalization conventions used in English language publications ('publications' broadly interpreted) for rendering foreign titles of works (where there's a fair amount of variation). That's what style sheets are for and why they can differ. However, both the Chicago Manual of Style and the Yale library system follow the same convention used by Grove. You are also confusing cultural practices (e.g. whether an opera is (or should be) widely called by its original language name or some translation into the language of the target culture), with written language style conventions. They are not the same thing. This issue has nothing to do with defending "your" or "my" language" from some kind of attack by the Opera project and/or Oxford University press. I wonder if Oxford University knows that is failing to defend the English language. ;-) In any case, all of the participants in this discussion so far are native speakers of English, albeit of different varieties, including standard British English and standard American English. And where is this RfC you're all talking about? Voceditenore ( talk) 16:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
This whole discussion is laughably pointless. The only good way to decide what foreign-language titles to use in the English Wikipedia is to reflect what is used in the majority of reliable sources. How hard is that? We're not getting a flood of complaints as to what we've done so far...so what ain't broke, don't fix. Moreschi ( talk) ( debate) 14:45, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
1. The Opera Project's clearly stated policy is to use the English language title for foreign language operas when this is what the opera is most commonly known by, and to follow the standard capitalization usage for English titles, e.g. The Marriage of Figaro. That usage for capitalizing English titles is likewise the one followed by Grove for titles in English.
2. When the work is more commonly known and performed with its original non-English title, we title the article as such – a widespread general editorial policy to be found both in Wikipedia and elsewhere. In that case, we follow an editorial style for the rendering of foreign language titles which preserves the accents, diacritics, and title capitalization of the original language. We have illustrated that style here. La bohème, which seems to be the only title so far being objected to here, is a foreign language title. Neither "la" nor "boheme" nor "bohème" are words in the English language nor are they loan words. Note also that how foreign language titles are rendered typographically is not the same issue as whether an article should have an English language title in the first place.
3. To characterize this as a debate about "encyclopedias which ignore English usage", and specifically Grove, as Pmanderson has done both here and in a discussion elsewhere completely misses the point. The style we use for rendering original language titles and when to use them is also used by the Yale University library system and The Chicago Manual of Style, amongst others. It also happens to be the style used in:
Are The Chicago Manual of Style, Routledge, Viking Press, Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press, Duke University Press, Yale University libraries, University of California Press, University of Virginia Press etc. etc. also "ignoring English usage" and therefore to be disregarded by the Opera Project as reliable sources in our naming conventions? Anyone who answers "yes" has a highly idiosyncratic notion of both "usage" and "reliable sources".
4. Johnbod has not "made the case" for Pmanderson's views here. All he said above was: "I tend to agree [with Pmanderson], although the Italian and Dutch articles use "b", but it is "B" in German and Spanish. Can anyone produce an Anglo sleeve or programme using "b"?" (Note when this issue was simultaneously raised by Pmanderson at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English), his approach was not supported by the two other users who have contributed so far to that discussion). In response to Johnbod's query, we provided multiple examples of the same foreign language title rendering that we follow from major opera companies in English speaking countries on three continents, and specifically for La bohème. We also pointed out that just about every combination of capitalization and use of è/e for La bohème can be found in English (and non-English) sources (and sometimes even within the same source) - with the reasons varying from differing in-house or publishers' style requirements, to typographical demands, to faulty proof-reading, to ignorance, etc.
5. To keep singling out Grove as some kind of culprit here is both wrong and disingenuous, as is the complete disregard for all the other reliable sources that we've cited who use the same style for the rendering of foreign language titles in English language publications. Grove did not invent that style. Grove follows the conventions widely used by a variety of English language publishers in the area, as we've pointed out above.
To sum up... The Opera Project has a clearly stated and detailed policy in place for rendering opera titles. It is based on the editorial policy of numerous reliable sources and is consistent with Wikipedia naming conventions as they are currently written. Unlike many, if not most, projects at Wikipedia which regularly deal with foreign language works, we apply that policy consistently to avoid confusion between articles. We also provide numerous redirect pages for various possible versions of the spelling and/or capitalization to aid readers in finding the article, and as we have pointed out above, the capitalization and use of diacritics does not affect the Google search results. Voceditenore ( talk) 10:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 50 | ← | Archive 53 | Archive 54 | Archive 55 | Archive 56 | Archive 57 | → | Archive 60 |
I'm sure we should not use the French title of an Italian opera as an example for anything; I doubt we should use the unEnglish La bohème at all. We should use what the general reader will recognize: La Bohème. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:20, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
What Voceditenore said. We already have an established system based on reliable sources. "Really folks, there are far more useful and interesting things for the Opera Project members to do on Wikipedia than flogging a dead horse". Well put. This project has always been more about content creation rather than pointless pedantry. Sorry, but I've got better things to do with my life than engage in endless discussions about the colour of the bikeshed. -- Folantin ( talk) 07:52, 3 May 2008 (UTC) There are two objections here:
Pmanderson: I suggest you either explain what system of opera title names you think we should have, or if you can't do this then remove the dispute tag and the RFC. It's unreasonable to challenge something you don't understand, when you have nothing to offer as a substitute. -- Kleinzach ( talk) 15:43, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Look, Pmanderson, you're confusing capitalization conventions used in English speaking countries for English words and titles (there is no dispute about those) with the capitalization conventions used in English language publications ('publications' broadly interpreted) for rendering foreign titles of works (where there's a fair amount of variation). That's what style sheets are for and why they can differ. However, both the Chicago Manual of Style and the Yale library system follow the same convention used by Grove. You are also confusing cultural practices (e.g. whether an opera is (or should be) widely called by its original language name or some translation into the language of the target culture), with written language style conventions. They are not the same thing. This issue has nothing to do with defending "your" or "my" language" from some kind of attack by the Opera project and/or Oxford University press. I wonder if Oxford University knows that is failing to defend the English language. ;-) In any case, all of the participants in this discussion so far are native speakers of English, albeit of different varieties, including standard British English and standard American English. And where is this RfC you're all talking about? Voceditenore ( talk) 16:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
This whole discussion is laughably pointless. The only good way to decide what foreign-language titles to use in the English Wikipedia is to reflect what is used in the majority of reliable sources. How hard is that? We're not getting a flood of complaints as to what we've done so far...so what ain't broke, don't fix. Moreschi ( talk) ( debate) 14:45, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
1. The Opera Project's clearly stated policy is to use the English language title for foreign language operas when this is what the opera is most commonly known by, and to follow the standard capitalization usage for English titles, e.g. The Marriage of Figaro. That usage for capitalizing English titles is likewise the one followed by Grove for titles in English.
2. When the work is more commonly known and performed with its original non-English title, we title the article as such – a widespread general editorial policy to be found both in Wikipedia and elsewhere. In that case, we follow an editorial style for the rendering of foreign language titles which preserves the accents, diacritics, and title capitalization of the original language. We have illustrated that style here. La bohème, which seems to be the only title so far being objected to here, is a foreign language title. Neither "la" nor "boheme" nor "bohème" are words in the English language nor are they loan words. Note also that how foreign language titles are rendered typographically is not the same issue as whether an article should have an English language title in the first place.
3. To characterize this as a debate about "encyclopedias which ignore English usage", and specifically Grove, as Pmanderson has done both here and in a discussion elsewhere completely misses the point. The style we use for rendering original language titles and when to use them is also used by the Yale University library system and The Chicago Manual of Style, amongst others. It also happens to be the style used in:
Are The Chicago Manual of Style, Routledge, Viking Press, Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press, Duke University Press, Yale University libraries, University of California Press, University of Virginia Press etc. etc. also "ignoring English usage" and therefore to be disregarded by the Opera Project as reliable sources in our naming conventions? Anyone who answers "yes" has a highly idiosyncratic notion of both "usage" and "reliable sources".
4. Johnbod has not "made the case" for Pmanderson's views here. All he said above was: "I tend to agree [with Pmanderson], although the Italian and Dutch articles use "b", but it is "B" in German and Spanish. Can anyone produce an Anglo sleeve or programme using "b"?" (Note when this issue was simultaneously raised by Pmanderson at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English), his approach was not supported by the two other users who have contributed so far to that discussion). In response to Johnbod's query, we provided multiple examples of the same foreign language title rendering that we follow from major opera companies in English speaking countries on three continents, and specifically for La bohème. We also pointed out that just about every combination of capitalization and use of è/e for La bohème can be found in English (and non-English) sources (and sometimes even within the same source) - with the reasons varying from differing in-house or publishers' style requirements, to typographical demands, to faulty proof-reading, to ignorance, etc.
5. To keep singling out Grove as some kind of culprit here is both wrong and disingenuous, as is the complete disregard for all the other reliable sources that we've cited who use the same style for the rendering of foreign language titles in English language publications. Grove did not invent that style. Grove follows the conventions widely used by a variety of English language publishers in the area, as we've pointed out above.
To sum up... The Opera Project has a clearly stated and detailed policy in place for rendering opera titles. It is based on the editorial policy of numerous reliable sources and is consistent with Wikipedia naming conventions as they are currently written. Unlike many, if not most, projects at Wikipedia which regularly deal with foreign language works, we apply that policy consistently to avoid confusion between articles. We also provide numerous redirect pages for various possible versions of the spelling and/or capitalization to aid readers in finding the article, and as we have pointed out above, the capitalization and use of diacritics does not affect the Google search results. Voceditenore ( talk) 10:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)