![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 45 | ← | Archive 50 | Archive 51 | Archive 52 | Archive 53 | Archive 54 | Archive 55 |
As many Project members will remember, three of us conducted a pilot assessment exercise, using articles within the scope of Wikipedia:WikiProject Richard Wagner, a few months ago. We reported here at the end of the pilot, and the report can be viewed here. If anyone would like to sample the Wagner assessments that were done, the place to start is here.
Kleinzach and I would like to start extending assessment to articles covered by the Opera Project (i.e. articles with the Project banner on their Talk pages). The first step will be to commission a Bot to automatically give a "Start" rating to nearly all articles which are not already classified as Stub. Articles which have been promoted to Good Article, Featured Article or Featured List will show those ratings on the banner.
This may take some time, particularly if any problems are encountered. Once it has been completed satisfactorily, there will need to be further discussion here about how the actual assessments will be done.
Any comments or questions at this stage?
-- GuillaumeTell ( talk) 01:30, 14 March 2008 (UTC) and -- Kleinzach ( talk) 01:41, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Singer categories have been discussed in the past: see [1] and [2] also the cfd discussions: [3] and [4]. It's generally been agreed that the categorization is unsatisfactory. We're unable to count (process, or indeed find) our singer articles because of inconsistencies.
The project page at present explains here that:
I propose we change this to:
If the proposal is agreed, we can create the necessary new categories, (bot) move the articles into the new categories - which I think is now manageable - and remove the non-opera singers. (The effect of this will be to depopulate the top voice categories of soprano, tenor etc., and put all the articles in sub-categories.)
I believe this proposal is in line with the views that most people have expressed in the past. Please give an aye or a nay! -- Kleinzach ( talk) 08:17, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
This has remained on the project Talk page for two weeks so if there are no more questions or comments I'll go ahead and archive it. Thanks. -- Kleinzach ( talk) 06:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Having just looked at the Nellie Melba article, I was impressed that it lacked any description of her voice despite the fact that an opera singer's voice is the most important factor in differentiating them from other singers. The articles on Joan Sutherland, Maria Callas, and Giuseppe Di Stefano all have solid discussions of their voices. Even in articles where the voice is not given much mention, such as Enrico Caruso, Renata Tebaldi, and Montserrat Caballé, it is at least discussed briefly. Strangely, the article on Luciano Pavarotti has only two sentences that I could see describing his voice. What about a standard heading in articles on opera singers such as "Descriptions of his (her) voice" which could use quotes and criticisms and which could be used to differentiate them from other singers? -- CloudSurfer ( talk) 02:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I have nominated these two pages for deletion as they are not terms that I have found in any music dictionary or music pedagogy book (at least as a standardized term low C is used as a reference term but it changes from instrument to instrument). Please contribute to the deletion discussion on these pages: Deep C and Low C. Nrswanson ( talk) 22:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I happened upon this article recently and discovered that there is a possible errror in the informantion on the modern world premiere of this production. The article says the modern world premiere was held on 21 September 2005 in Düsseldorf as part of the Altstadtherbst Kulturfestival, in a production by Uwe Schmitz-Gielsdorf, designed by Paolo Atzori, with l’Orchestra Modo Antiquo conducted again by Sardelli. However, I have come acroos another source that says it was at the De Doelen Centre in Rotterdam in 2005. That is at least what is on the biographical account of singer Marie-Nicole Lemieux who was in the production says. It also says that on her bio at the following [5] . What is the truth? Anyone know? Nrswanson ( talk) 14:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Hello,
there are currently 11 articles in the scope of this project which are tagged with notability concerns. I have listed them here. (Note: this listing is based on a database snapshot of 12 March 2008 and may be slightly outdated.)
I would encourage members of this project to have a look at these articles, and see whether independent sources can be added, whether the articles can be merged into an article of larger scope, or possibly be deleted. Any help in cleaning up this backlog is appreciated. For further information, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Notability.
If you have any questions, please leave a message on the Notability project page or on my personal talk page. (I'm not watching this page however.) Thanks! -- B. Wolterding ( talk) 16:46, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
We have not yet discussed the The Dreamers (opera). Opera News did review the work, although only briefly. However, Sonoma City Opera is a very minor company. Not sure about notability. Nrswanson ( talk) 01:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Did we want to create cats for sub types? Such as Category:Coloratura Sopranos? Nrswanson ( talk) 06:41, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I've put this up for Afd here. Most of it is previously deleted listcruft from Pagliacci. -- Kleinzach ( talk) 10:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, for the lateness. How did March go by so fast??? I'm adding a suggestion below, but I'm going to be travelling for a large part of April, and can't help much in the articles on whatever singer(s) are chosen. So please feel free to suggest anything else that you find more appealing....
"The García Clan"
Any other suggestions? Best, Voceditenore ( talk) 10:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
"Charpentier and Campra's singers"
Here's the list gleaned from the role creators in
Les arts florissants and
Médée. (None of Campra's operas have articles). Do any of the following seem do-able?
Jacqueline-Geneviève de Brion,
Antoinette Talon,
Marie Guilbault de Grandmaison,
Pierre Beaupuis,
Elisabeth "Isabelle" Thorin,
Mlle de Guise (aka
Marie de Lorraine, duchesse de Guise
[9]),
Marthe Le Rochois (of whom the wacky and wonderful
Julie d'Aubigny was allegedly enamoured),
Dumesnil (already has a short article from the 1911 Brittanica),
Jean Dun,
Fanchon Moreau,
Germain Carlier. Best,
Voceditenore (
talk) 11:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Casting the net wider
Here are 3 more from that period are already red-linked: Marie Verdier, Pierre Jélyotte, Sophie Arnould
Re the Dumesnil (above) - that article is actually for a French actress of the period. The haute-contre I think we're looking for doesn't have an article. And to make matters worse, his name seems to spelled zillions of ways: Louis Gaulard Dumesny (or Dumeny, or Dumeni, or du Mesny, or Dumesnil, or Duménil )
A few others that keep popping up but aren't red-linked: Claude Chassé and Marie-Jeanne Chevalier
I'd suggest putting the whole lot up and people can pick and choose depending which ones they can get information for. Best, Voceditenore ( talk) 17:20, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I wanted to higlight this link which I've just added to Online research. Those of you working on baroque operas might find if useful:
Best, Voceditenore ( talk) 16:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm new to this so hope I'm in the right place and not putting my foot in it!. How about somthing on (the late) Joyce Barker? I know of her career through studies in South African universities where she was born. Her roles in Aida and Turandot are enthusiasticaly remebered as is her career as a teacher in the years before she passed. I have some contact with her family and could access and share much information possibly not previously published. Any thoughts? Precinctwebgeoff ( talk) 12:15, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Should we discuss articles on non-existent operas? By nonexistent I mean operas that were lost, never written or so little developed they are unperformable. An examples is the new Maître Pierre, (also Verdi's Re Lear though that is now toned down to an article about a libretto and, unlike Maître Pierre, is not listed in a navigation box).
The problem with listing nonexistent operas - for example in navigation boxes - is that it's misleading, but also serves to discredit WP with readers who know better ("silly Wikipedia!" etc). Obviously unrealized projects should be mentioned in biographical pages - the question is whether they should be made into independent articles? What do you think?-- Kleinzach ( talk) 07:09, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
OK. I guess this one will come up again - and it will be useful to refer to this discussion. I remain a bit wary - I'd prefer to see more even development of our coverage - but we can see whether this becomes more of an issue in the future. Thanks for your thoughts. -- Kleinzach ( talk) 12:58, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Do you think we should have our own portal? I know we can also put on opera related info in Portal:Classical music, but I think it is also good if we have our own. What do you guys think? I have make the intro and added the tag at opera article. However, if majority disagree, please remove it - Jay ( talk) 12:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Nice work, Jay. -- Folantin ( talk) 11:14, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 45 | ← | Archive 50 | Archive 51 | Archive 52 | Archive 53 | Archive 54 | Archive 55 |
As many Project members will remember, three of us conducted a pilot assessment exercise, using articles within the scope of Wikipedia:WikiProject Richard Wagner, a few months ago. We reported here at the end of the pilot, and the report can be viewed here. If anyone would like to sample the Wagner assessments that were done, the place to start is here.
Kleinzach and I would like to start extending assessment to articles covered by the Opera Project (i.e. articles with the Project banner on their Talk pages). The first step will be to commission a Bot to automatically give a "Start" rating to nearly all articles which are not already classified as Stub. Articles which have been promoted to Good Article, Featured Article or Featured List will show those ratings on the banner.
This may take some time, particularly if any problems are encountered. Once it has been completed satisfactorily, there will need to be further discussion here about how the actual assessments will be done.
Any comments or questions at this stage?
-- GuillaumeTell ( talk) 01:30, 14 March 2008 (UTC) and -- Kleinzach ( talk) 01:41, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Singer categories have been discussed in the past: see [1] and [2] also the cfd discussions: [3] and [4]. It's generally been agreed that the categorization is unsatisfactory. We're unable to count (process, or indeed find) our singer articles because of inconsistencies.
The project page at present explains here that:
I propose we change this to:
If the proposal is agreed, we can create the necessary new categories, (bot) move the articles into the new categories - which I think is now manageable - and remove the non-opera singers. (The effect of this will be to depopulate the top voice categories of soprano, tenor etc., and put all the articles in sub-categories.)
I believe this proposal is in line with the views that most people have expressed in the past. Please give an aye or a nay! -- Kleinzach ( talk) 08:17, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
This has remained on the project Talk page for two weeks so if there are no more questions or comments I'll go ahead and archive it. Thanks. -- Kleinzach ( talk) 06:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Having just looked at the Nellie Melba article, I was impressed that it lacked any description of her voice despite the fact that an opera singer's voice is the most important factor in differentiating them from other singers. The articles on Joan Sutherland, Maria Callas, and Giuseppe Di Stefano all have solid discussions of their voices. Even in articles where the voice is not given much mention, such as Enrico Caruso, Renata Tebaldi, and Montserrat Caballé, it is at least discussed briefly. Strangely, the article on Luciano Pavarotti has only two sentences that I could see describing his voice. What about a standard heading in articles on opera singers such as "Descriptions of his (her) voice" which could use quotes and criticisms and which could be used to differentiate them from other singers? -- CloudSurfer ( talk) 02:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I have nominated these two pages for deletion as they are not terms that I have found in any music dictionary or music pedagogy book (at least as a standardized term low C is used as a reference term but it changes from instrument to instrument). Please contribute to the deletion discussion on these pages: Deep C and Low C. Nrswanson ( talk) 22:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I happened upon this article recently and discovered that there is a possible errror in the informantion on the modern world premiere of this production. The article says the modern world premiere was held on 21 September 2005 in Düsseldorf as part of the Altstadtherbst Kulturfestival, in a production by Uwe Schmitz-Gielsdorf, designed by Paolo Atzori, with l’Orchestra Modo Antiquo conducted again by Sardelli. However, I have come acroos another source that says it was at the De Doelen Centre in Rotterdam in 2005. That is at least what is on the biographical account of singer Marie-Nicole Lemieux who was in the production says. It also says that on her bio at the following [5] . What is the truth? Anyone know? Nrswanson ( talk) 14:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Hello,
there are currently 11 articles in the scope of this project which are tagged with notability concerns. I have listed them here. (Note: this listing is based on a database snapshot of 12 March 2008 and may be slightly outdated.)
I would encourage members of this project to have a look at these articles, and see whether independent sources can be added, whether the articles can be merged into an article of larger scope, or possibly be deleted. Any help in cleaning up this backlog is appreciated. For further information, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Notability.
If you have any questions, please leave a message on the Notability project page or on my personal talk page. (I'm not watching this page however.) Thanks! -- B. Wolterding ( talk) 16:46, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
We have not yet discussed the The Dreamers (opera). Opera News did review the work, although only briefly. However, Sonoma City Opera is a very minor company. Not sure about notability. Nrswanson ( talk) 01:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Did we want to create cats for sub types? Such as Category:Coloratura Sopranos? Nrswanson ( talk) 06:41, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I've put this up for Afd here. Most of it is previously deleted listcruft from Pagliacci. -- Kleinzach ( talk) 10:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, for the lateness. How did March go by so fast??? I'm adding a suggestion below, but I'm going to be travelling for a large part of April, and can't help much in the articles on whatever singer(s) are chosen. So please feel free to suggest anything else that you find more appealing....
"The García Clan"
Any other suggestions? Best, Voceditenore ( talk) 10:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
"Charpentier and Campra's singers"
Here's the list gleaned from the role creators in
Les arts florissants and
Médée. (None of Campra's operas have articles). Do any of the following seem do-able?
Jacqueline-Geneviève de Brion,
Antoinette Talon,
Marie Guilbault de Grandmaison,
Pierre Beaupuis,
Elisabeth "Isabelle" Thorin,
Mlle de Guise (aka
Marie de Lorraine, duchesse de Guise
[9]),
Marthe Le Rochois (of whom the wacky and wonderful
Julie d'Aubigny was allegedly enamoured),
Dumesnil (already has a short article from the 1911 Brittanica),
Jean Dun,
Fanchon Moreau,
Germain Carlier. Best,
Voceditenore (
talk) 11:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Casting the net wider
Here are 3 more from that period are already red-linked: Marie Verdier, Pierre Jélyotte, Sophie Arnould
Re the Dumesnil (above) - that article is actually for a French actress of the period. The haute-contre I think we're looking for doesn't have an article. And to make matters worse, his name seems to spelled zillions of ways: Louis Gaulard Dumesny (or Dumeny, or Dumeni, or du Mesny, or Dumesnil, or Duménil )
A few others that keep popping up but aren't red-linked: Claude Chassé and Marie-Jeanne Chevalier
I'd suggest putting the whole lot up and people can pick and choose depending which ones they can get information for. Best, Voceditenore ( talk) 17:20, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I wanted to higlight this link which I've just added to Online research. Those of you working on baroque operas might find if useful:
Best, Voceditenore ( talk) 16:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm new to this so hope I'm in the right place and not putting my foot in it!. How about somthing on (the late) Joyce Barker? I know of her career through studies in South African universities where she was born. Her roles in Aida and Turandot are enthusiasticaly remebered as is her career as a teacher in the years before she passed. I have some contact with her family and could access and share much information possibly not previously published. Any thoughts? Precinctwebgeoff ( talk) 12:15, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Should we discuss articles on non-existent operas? By nonexistent I mean operas that were lost, never written or so little developed they are unperformable. An examples is the new Maître Pierre, (also Verdi's Re Lear though that is now toned down to an article about a libretto and, unlike Maître Pierre, is not listed in a navigation box).
The problem with listing nonexistent operas - for example in navigation boxes - is that it's misleading, but also serves to discredit WP with readers who know better ("silly Wikipedia!" etc). Obviously unrealized projects should be mentioned in biographical pages - the question is whether they should be made into independent articles? What do you think?-- Kleinzach ( talk) 07:09, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
OK. I guess this one will come up again - and it will be useful to refer to this discussion. I remain a bit wary - I'd prefer to see more even development of our coverage - but we can see whether this becomes more of an issue in the future. Thanks for your thoughts. -- Kleinzach ( talk) 12:58, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Do you think we should have our own portal? I know we can also put on opera related info in Portal:Classical music, but I think it is also good if we have our own. What do you guys think? I have make the intro and added the tag at opera article. However, if majority disagree, please remove it - Jay ( talk) 12:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Nice work, Jay. -- Folantin ( talk) 11:14, 30 March 2008 (UTC)