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Does anyone have any good ideas as to how best to write this section of the main opera article? Any good sources to look at? The other section-stub, "Contemporary trends", has now been written up fairly decently, half by an anon and half by me forgetting to sign in. I don't know if any of what I or the anon said is controversial or wrong, but all comments are welcome on this as well. Moreschi 12:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
-- GuillaumeTell 17:54, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I've asked Mr. Silvers to comment. The whole thing's his area, not mine. If he wants a separate article, that's fine by me; if a new (but short!!!) section, then I don't really mind either. His contributions seem to show that he isn't editing at the moment, so we might not get a comment for a couple hours/until tomorrow.
Re elderly audiences: I'm a Londoner (Britain, not Texas), and here the main opera audience isn't particularly geriatric - usually middle aged, and upper middle-class. However, I'm youthful myself (I'll not be saying how young), and I simply adore the music as well. Wikipedia, for me, is a wonderful way of expressing that, as well as doing some practical good to the world. In my opinion, the main barrier to the youth of Britain as regards opera (and classical music in general) is the lack of new masterpieces being written that are actually performed more than once. For them, opera is a moribund museum art form, and on bad days I often feel like agreeing. Whether serialist excesses are to blame is another question. How can you reasonably expect people, and youths especially, to take interest in what is lamentably a dead art genre. Since the deaths of Britten and Shostakovich, who has stepped forward as a composer of lasting works of genius? When GuillameTell suggested as an annotation "last opera composed with a foothold in the standard repertory", (concerning Britten's A Midsummer Night's Dream) he was entirely correct, but talking about an opera premiered in 1960! How wretched is that? Moreschi 19:11, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi, all!
We're just getting
WikiProject Musicals off the ground, and we've recently questioned whether or not operettas would be under our umbrella. As of now, we're considering them yours -- if you would like us to handle them, that's cool, too.
I'm sure we'll have other questions as we grow.
If there's any way we can work together, please let us know. I see you've recently had the "cross-over" discussion on your talk page; if we can help at all, by all means let us know.
—
Music
Maker
08:27, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Who should we have in August? Some candidates: Gluck, Offenbach, Rossini, Richard Strauss and Verdi. Any preferences? (If I am allowed a vote myself it will be for Gluck - not well-served at the moment.)
BTW Fireplace has done a terrific job putting up stubs for all the Donizetti operas. All the basic facts are there and the articles are ready for those who have seen the operas (or have recordings) to fill out the pages. - Kleinzach 14:23, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I’d like to note some ‘false friends’ mistranslations I’ve been finding recently:
1. Melodramma as “melodramatic opera”: the Italian word Melodramma means opera, so a ‘‘melodramma tragico’’ just means a tragic opera. Melodrama (with two ‘m’s) has two meanings. The commonly-understood meaning (explained in the Wikipedia article) but also a technique of using the spoken voice to heighten the drama, is used by Beethoven in Fidelio and Weber in Der Freischütz.
2. Tragedia lirica as “lyrical tragedy”: it simply means tragic opera.
3. Opéra comique as “comic opera”: opéra comique is a genre that is often far from comic e.g. Carmen. It should remain in French.
Actually a lot of trouble can be avoided by not translating! If it is left alone it will be correct! Hope this is helpful. Best. - Kleinzach 11:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Shall we put this list just underneath the current list of featured articles? Do people think that this is a good idea? Dido and Aeneas would be the first entrant that I know of, although The Fairy-Queen might be joining it soon. I think that it gives us something to aim at that is a little less difficult than the lofty heights of FA. Cheers, Moreschi 15:22, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
On a separate note, does anyone else have an opinion to proffer about my proposal for a good articles section to be created just above the featured articles section on the main project page? So far we have one "aye" and one "nay" (all reasons detailed above). Moreschi 18:36, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
The project page has a list of well-known contemporary singers lacking articles (Can you help?). Ssilvers has just added these names: Nico Castel, Muriel Costa-Greenspon, Robert Hale, and Frank Porretta. Robert Hale is indeed a notable bass-baritone who has had an international career, but what about the others? Who are they and why are they notable? - Kleinzach 23:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Apologies for the intrusion, I just figure this is the most direct route to getting some good advice. Kleinzach (who I see is a member here) posted Category:Impressionistic operas for deletion at WP:CFD here. I'm active at CFD, but I don't know... well, much of anything about the subject matter, so I was hoping some of you might have something to add to the discussion. The most important question is probably: how many operas could be categorized this way? In other words, is the article empty because the articles haven't been written, or because there really isn't much to say about it? Thanks for your time, wish you all well in your continued efforts. Luna Santin 09:56, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
A year or so ago someone made a series of overlapping descriptive categories for opera including: 1. Category:Children's operas (9 items), 2. Category:Fairy opera (11 items), 3. Category:Folk opera (4 items), 4. Category:Lyric fairy tale (3 items), 5. Category:Lyric legend (3 items). How many of these are really viable? Which should we keep and which should we merge? Any opinions? - Kleinzach 17:14, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I have also put Category:Grotesque operas, Category:Modernist operas, Category:Morality plays and Category:Surrealist drama up for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 July 8. I hope that is acceptable to everybody. Modernism in opera is extremely difficult to define and morality plays and surrealist drama are not very useful either. - Kleinzach 23:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
There are others, but these are a start. My definition of folk opera would be not only an opera that has a nationalistic theme, but that also uses the traditional musical traditions of that country. Cheers, Moreschi 16:43, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
A search for the word "alto" goes to a disambig page, rather than the article on the voice type. I think this is wrong: the other stuff on that disambig page isn't nearly so important. I would prefer to see the search go straight to the page that most people will want, with a link provided to the disambig page at the top. What do other people think? The same is true for bass, but the articles on that disambig page are much more important and relevant than those on the alto disambig page. Best to all, Moreschi 18:53, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
There is a category Operas. It has sub-categories for:
Many (but not all) operas with their own Wikipedia articles are categorized in Category:Opera. Usually, they are also categorized in the appropriate composer, genre, and language sub-categories, although the pages are far from consistent about it.
According to WP:CG, an article should not normally be in both a category and that category's parent. Yet, in various spot-checks, I have seen many opera articles that are in both Category:Operas and the relevant sub-category of "Operas by <so-and-so>". Same story for the language and genre sub-categories.
Is this an error, or was there a Project Opera policy decision to put all operas in Category:Operas as well as all relevant sub-categories? Marc Shepherd 22:58, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
Does anyone have any good ideas as to how best to write this section of the main opera article? Any good sources to look at? The other section-stub, "Contemporary trends", has now been written up fairly decently, half by an anon and half by me forgetting to sign in. I don't know if any of what I or the anon said is controversial or wrong, but all comments are welcome on this as well. Moreschi 12:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
-- GuillaumeTell 17:54, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I've asked Mr. Silvers to comment. The whole thing's his area, not mine. If he wants a separate article, that's fine by me; if a new (but short!!!) section, then I don't really mind either. His contributions seem to show that he isn't editing at the moment, so we might not get a comment for a couple hours/until tomorrow.
Re elderly audiences: I'm a Londoner (Britain, not Texas), and here the main opera audience isn't particularly geriatric - usually middle aged, and upper middle-class. However, I'm youthful myself (I'll not be saying how young), and I simply adore the music as well. Wikipedia, for me, is a wonderful way of expressing that, as well as doing some practical good to the world. In my opinion, the main barrier to the youth of Britain as regards opera (and classical music in general) is the lack of new masterpieces being written that are actually performed more than once. For them, opera is a moribund museum art form, and on bad days I often feel like agreeing. Whether serialist excesses are to blame is another question. How can you reasonably expect people, and youths especially, to take interest in what is lamentably a dead art genre. Since the deaths of Britten and Shostakovich, who has stepped forward as a composer of lasting works of genius? When GuillameTell suggested as an annotation "last opera composed with a foothold in the standard repertory", (concerning Britten's A Midsummer Night's Dream) he was entirely correct, but talking about an opera premiered in 1960! How wretched is that? Moreschi 19:11, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi, all!
We're just getting
WikiProject Musicals off the ground, and we've recently questioned whether or not operettas would be under our umbrella. As of now, we're considering them yours -- if you would like us to handle them, that's cool, too.
I'm sure we'll have other questions as we grow.
If there's any way we can work together, please let us know. I see you've recently had the "cross-over" discussion on your talk page; if we can help at all, by all means let us know.
—
Music
Maker
08:27, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Who should we have in August? Some candidates: Gluck, Offenbach, Rossini, Richard Strauss and Verdi. Any preferences? (If I am allowed a vote myself it will be for Gluck - not well-served at the moment.)
BTW Fireplace has done a terrific job putting up stubs for all the Donizetti operas. All the basic facts are there and the articles are ready for those who have seen the operas (or have recordings) to fill out the pages. - Kleinzach 14:23, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I’d like to note some ‘false friends’ mistranslations I’ve been finding recently:
1. Melodramma as “melodramatic opera”: the Italian word Melodramma means opera, so a ‘‘melodramma tragico’’ just means a tragic opera. Melodrama (with two ‘m’s) has two meanings. The commonly-understood meaning (explained in the Wikipedia article) but also a technique of using the spoken voice to heighten the drama, is used by Beethoven in Fidelio and Weber in Der Freischütz.
2. Tragedia lirica as “lyrical tragedy”: it simply means tragic opera.
3. Opéra comique as “comic opera”: opéra comique is a genre that is often far from comic e.g. Carmen. It should remain in French.
Actually a lot of trouble can be avoided by not translating! If it is left alone it will be correct! Hope this is helpful. Best. - Kleinzach 11:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Shall we put this list just underneath the current list of featured articles? Do people think that this is a good idea? Dido and Aeneas would be the first entrant that I know of, although The Fairy-Queen might be joining it soon. I think that it gives us something to aim at that is a little less difficult than the lofty heights of FA. Cheers, Moreschi 15:22, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
On a separate note, does anyone else have an opinion to proffer about my proposal for a good articles section to be created just above the featured articles section on the main project page? So far we have one "aye" and one "nay" (all reasons detailed above). Moreschi 18:36, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
The project page has a list of well-known contemporary singers lacking articles (Can you help?). Ssilvers has just added these names: Nico Castel, Muriel Costa-Greenspon, Robert Hale, and Frank Porretta. Robert Hale is indeed a notable bass-baritone who has had an international career, but what about the others? Who are they and why are they notable? - Kleinzach 23:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Apologies for the intrusion, I just figure this is the most direct route to getting some good advice. Kleinzach (who I see is a member here) posted Category:Impressionistic operas for deletion at WP:CFD here. I'm active at CFD, but I don't know... well, much of anything about the subject matter, so I was hoping some of you might have something to add to the discussion. The most important question is probably: how many operas could be categorized this way? In other words, is the article empty because the articles haven't been written, or because there really isn't much to say about it? Thanks for your time, wish you all well in your continued efforts. Luna Santin 09:56, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
A year or so ago someone made a series of overlapping descriptive categories for opera including: 1. Category:Children's operas (9 items), 2. Category:Fairy opera (11 items), 3. Category:Folk opera (4 items), 4. Category:Lyric fairy tale (3 items), 5. Category:Lyric legend (3 items). How many of these are really viable? Which should we keep and which should we merge? Any opinions? - Kleinzach 17:14, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I have also put Category:Grotesque operas, Category:Modernist operas, Category:Morality plays and Category:Surrealist drama up for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 July 8. I hope that is acceptable to everybody. Modernism in opera is extremely difficult to define and morality plays and surrealist drama are not very useful either. - Kleinzach 23:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
There are others, but these are a start. My definition of folk opera would be not only an opera that has a nationalistic theme, but that also uses the traditional musical traditions of that country. Cheers, Moreschi 16:43, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
A search for the word "alto" goes to a disambig page, rather than the article on the voice type. I think this is wrong: the other stuff on that disambig page isn't nearly so important. I would prefer to see the search go straight to the page that most people will want, with a link provided to the disambig page at the top. What do other people think? The same is true for bass, but the articles on that disambig page are much more important and relevant than those on the alto disambig page. Best to all, Moreschi 18:53, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
There is a category Operas. It has sub-categories for:
Many (but not all) operas with their own Wikipedia articles are categorized in Category:Opera. Usually, they are also categorized in the appropriate composer, genre, and language sub-categories, although the pages are far from consistent about it.
According to WP:CG, an article should not normally be in both a category and that category's parent. Yet, in various spot-checks, I have seen many opera articles that are in both Category:Operas and the relevant sub-category of "Operas by <so-and-so>". Same story for the language and genre sub-categories.
Is this an error, or was there a Project Opera policy decision to put all operas in Category:Operas as well as all relevant sub-categories? Marc Shepherd 22:58, 11 July 2006 (UTC)