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I just discovered an article on the soprano Diletta Rizzo Marin. It looks like a puff piece to me. What do you all think? Is this another "Bright Young Thing" article? Nrswanson ( talk) 23:02, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed the PROD tag as I felt that, following the addition of further references and material, the subject was sufficiently notable for an article. However, it has now been nominated for deletion via AfD by Nrswanson. The deletion discussion page is here for any project members who may wish to comment. Best, Voceditenore ( talk) 15:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Marleau, who seems to have started editing on Wikipedia about 3 weeks ago, has created (or significantly expanded) quite a lot of new articles, mainly on Italian or Italian American singers, many of whom were prominent at the Met. The articles are very well-written... er... perhaps too well-written. The editor's first language is not English and you can see this in the leads he writes for the articles. But then in the body of the article, the writing switches to very polished prose, e.g. Sesto Bruscantini, Mario Sereni. Quite a few of the articles list these as sources:
They're not online, so I suppose if they were copied by hand from the books, no one will notice, or will they? Voceditenore ( talk) 18:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Doesn't the Renee Fleming infobox violate the Opera Project rule? How is it this has survived while all others appear to have been expunged? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nickbigd ( talk • contribs) 21:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Here's some more I've found that have pop music infoboxes (leaving out the cross-over/popera crowd). I'll list them here, because I've not got the time to remove them myself right now and besides I hate the occasionally ensuing kerfuffle on the talk pages which is even more time consuming.
Best, Voceditenore ( talk) 09:17, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
A number of (to me) unfamiliar pitch names have been placed under the OP banner, such as Low C (my middle C) ' Deep C' and Soprano C (???), the last a result of splitting high C. The only one referenced, Tenor C, certainly seems a non-standard name, though it at least bears directly on opera. If it can be shown that any of these have some currency, I think they should at least be mentioned in note and/or the articles on Scientific pitch notation and Helmholtz pitch notation, but otherwise it might be best to make a verifiable article out of high C and dump the rest. Any better ideas? Sparafucil ( talk) 08:11, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Question: On the subject of notes... originally the climactic note in Nessun Dorma was listed as B4 in the article. Then someone changed it to B5. Then someone changed it back to B4 pointing out that B5 was a soprano note. Then someone else changed it to a B3 on the basis of an "opera Karaoke" web site. [1]. So which is it? Best, Voceditenore ( talk) 10:07, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I've just moved La reine de Saba to La Reine de Saba but cant remember where I read the thread on La Juive vs. La juive which spelt out the rule. In any case the Project page, which now reads "in Italian and French, only proper names are capitalized" should be updated to something like "in French unlike Italian, a noun refering to a character is capitalized; thus Il barbiere di Siviglia but Le Barbier de Seville" Sparafucil ( talk) 01:07, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the link to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (operas), which is clear enough; I've clarified the project page to avoid confusion. I dont have any insight into why Grove does this; clearly it is a house style, since Steven Huebner's Grove articles follow it while his own publications (including The Operas of Gounod) do not. It seems to me this is not a long term solution unless we can convince the rest of anglophone WP to go along... Sparafucil ( talk) 01:08, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I did not "change" any guideline, but reworded a section that implies French and Italian capitalization are the same, after proposing the same above. Do you have a reasoned objection? Sparafucil ( talk) 21:59, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
For now we follow Grove in treating French the same way: 'La reine de Saba', 'Les Indes galantes', 'La Juive', 'L'Africaine' (note however that it is standard in French to capitalize nouns referring to a character: La mère coupable (the opera) but La Mère coupable, (the play); likewise ' Il trovatore' becomes 'Le Trouvère'
The reason La Reine de Saba is moved is that this contributor was confused by the text as it stands. Would you have a go yourself at wording the guidelines so they dont invite "corrections" to Grove capitalization? Sparafucil ( talk) 21:31, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Um... The 'system' for title capitalization in French that Sparafucil is referring to isn't to capitalize nouns referring to a character. It's to capitalize the first word + the first noun (any noun) if the first word isn't a noun. It's the most commonly used system and also the one used in the French Wikipedia [2] and by the Paris Opera. [3] But... there seem to be at least 3 competing 'systems' used in France for titles: (a) first word + first noun if the first word isn't a noun (as above), (b) First word only, even if it's not a noun (a la Grove), (c) all important nouns. The most common is (a) and the least common is (c). I once ran a check on several French opera house sites and French newspapers to see how they capitalized the opera titles and found both Le Trouvère and Le trouvère, La Fille du régiment and La fille du régiment, etc.
However, given the inconsistency even in French usage, the fact that the Grove does use one of the actual French systems, and the vast number of references to French operas in Wikpedia, it's better to stick to only one system. And... not get into discussions of French grammar on the guidelines page, and certainly not to start randomly changing the titles of existing articles. So yes, Sparafucil, please change them back to the titles used in Grove. Best, Voceditenore ( talk) 08:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm. I see this might run and run, after noticing a recent series of changes in French opera titles with accompanying page moves etc., e.g. [5], [6], [7], and the ensuing kerfuffles on the talk pages. Anyhow, the guidelines we use are currently stated here as:
But... I think they should be reworded to make it clear that we are not stating a categorical rule about capitalization rules in various languages but we are stating the Grove rules, which we follow. Thus, reword simply to:
Voceditenore ( talk) 09:08, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Comment "Chaotic" is putting it mildly. First of all the 'rule' for capitalization on the French Project page on the English Wikipedia is at variance with the Manual of Style for the French Wikipedia. The French Wikipedia does not treat the indefinite article (un, une) the same way as the definite article (le, la, les) and also capitalizes any pre-posed adjectives or adverbs. See [8] But frankly, the Manual of Style on the French Wikipedia is itself at variance with both Le Petit Robert, and the Dictionnaire de citations françaises which treat all determiners (articles, numbers, demonstratives, etc.) the same.
Secondly, if you actually look at the way titles of works are rendered on the French Wikipedia, there is massive inconsistency, even according to their own rules. Below is a small sample of titles of works (operas, novels, paintings, etc.) as given in the French Wikipedia:
The system we use is one of the 'systems' used in France, albeit less commonly, and it is also the system used by the Bibliographie nationale française in their catalogue. Here's a sample page. [9] Note the following:
Look, no one here is trying to argue as to which of the sytems used in France (or on the French Project or on the French Wikipedia or on the Opera Project) is the "correct one". Or that "we know better" about the French language than anyone else. For one thing, the anyone else's don't seem to know themselves nor do they agree with each other. What we use is one of the systems used in France, and a system that gives a consistent guidance and format for opera titles. Note also that the Wikipedia French project only "suggests" a particular system. Voceditenore ( talk) 09:41, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
PS It's not just hundreds of articles that are involved, it's literally thousands. In addition to the 226 French language operas which have their own Wikpedia articles, those operas (and others which don't have their own article) are multiply mentioned and linked in articles about other operas, opera composers and librettists (French and otherwise), in singers' biographies, and in opera house histories. And I should point out that the French Project's suggestion is currently not followed consistently in their non-opera articles on the English Wikpedia either. Just a few out of hundreds of examples: The Red and the Black (French title given as Le Rouge et le Noir, which capitalizes both nouns not just the first one), The Black Tulip (French title given as La Tulipe Noire). Not to mention the multiple inconsistencies of capitalization for the French title in The Lady of the Camellias. Ditto the list of works in Alexandre Dumas, fils and in Stendhal, and the French painting titles in Jean-Honoré Fragonard. Voceditenore ( talk) 10:58, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Can we archive this now? -- Kleinzach ( talk) 04:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 45 | ← | Archive 47 | Archive 48 | Archive 49 | Archive 50 | Archive 51 | → | Archive 55 |
I just discovered an article on the soprano Diletta Rizzo Marin. It looks like a puff piece to me. What do you all think? Is this another "Bright Young Thing" article? Nrswanson ( talk) 23:02, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed the PROD tag as I felt that, following the addition of further references and material, the subject was sufficiently notable for an article. However, it has now been nominated for deletion via AfD by Nrswanson. The deletion discussion page is here for any project members who may wish to comment. Best, Voceditenore ( talk) 15:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Marleau, who seems to have started editing on Wikipedia about 3 weeks ago, has created (or significantly expanded) quite a lot of new articles, mainly on Italian or Italian American singers, many of whom were prominent at the Met. The articles are very well-written... er... perhaps too well-written. The editor's first language is not English and you can see this in the leads he writes for the articles. But then in the body of the article, the writing switches to very polished prose, e.g. Sesto Bruscantini, Mario Sereni. Quite a few of the articles list these as sources:
They're not online, so I suppose if they were copied by hand from the books, no one will notice, or will they? Voceditenore ( talk) 18:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Doesn't the Renee Fleming infobox violate the Opera Project rule? How is it this has survived while all others appear to have been expunged? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nickbigd ( talk • contribs) 21:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Here's some more I've found that have pop music infoboxes (leaving out the cross-over/popera crowd). I'll list them here, because I've not got the time to remove them myself right now and besides I hate the occasionally ensuing kerfuffle on the talk pages which is even more time consuming.
Best, Voceditenore ( talk) 09:17, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
A number of (to me) unfamiliar pitch names have been placed under the OP banner, such as Low C (my middle C) ' Deep C' and Soprano C (???), the last a result of splitting high C. The only one referenced, Tenor C, certainly seems a non-standard name, though it at least bears directly on opera. If it can be shown that any of these have some currency, I think they should at least be mentioned in note and/or the articles on Scientific pitch notation and Helmholtz pitch notation, but otherwise it might be best to make a verifiable article out of high C and dump the rest. Any better ideas? Sparafucil ( talk) 08:11, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Question: On the subject of notes... originally the climactic note in Nessun Dorma was listed as B4 in the article. Then someone changed it to B5. Then someone changed it back to B4 pointing out that B5 was a soprano note. Then someone else changed it to a B3 on the basis of an "opera Karaoke" web site. [1]. So which is it? Best, Voceditenore ( talk) 10:07, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I've just moved La reine de Saba to La Reine de Saba but cant remember where I read the thread on La Juive vs. La juive which spelt out the rule. In any case the Project page, which now reads "in Italian and French, only proper names are capitalized" should be updated to something like "in French unlike Italian, a noun refering to a character is capitalized; thus Il barbiere di Siviglia but Le Barbier de Seville" Sparafucil ( talk) 01:07, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the link to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (operas), which is clear enough; I've clarified the project page to avoid confusion. I dont have any insight into why Grove does this; clearly it is a house style, since Steven Huebner's Grove articles follow it while his own publications (including The Operas of Gounod) do not. It seems to me this is not a long term solution unless we can convince the rest of anglophone WP to go along... Sparafucil ( talk) 01:08, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I did not "change" any guideline, but reworded a section that implies French and Italian capitalization are the same, after proposing the same above. Do you have a reasoned objection? Sparafucil ( talk) 21:59, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
For now we follow Grove in treating French the same way: 'La reine de Saba', 'Les Indes galantes', 'La Juive', 'L'Africaine' (note however that it is standard in French to capitalize nouns referring to a character: La mère coupable (the opera) but La Mère coupable, (the play); likewise ' Il trovatore' becomes 'Le Trouvère'
The reason La Reine de Saba is moved is that this contributor was confused by the text as it stands. Would you have a go yourself at wording the guidelines so they dont invite "corrections" to Grove capitalization? Sparafucil ( talk) 21:31, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Um... The 'system' for title capitalization in French that Sparafucil is referring to isn't to capitalize nouns referring to a character. It's to capitalize the first word + the first noun (any noun) if the first word isn't a noun. It's the most commonly used system and also the one used in the French Wikipedia [2] and by the Paris Opera. [3] But... there seem to be at least 3 competing 'systems' used in France for titles: (a) first word + first noun if the first word isn't a noun (as above), (b) First word only, even if it's not a noun (a la Grove), (c) all important nouns. The most common is (a) and the least common is (c). I once ran a check on several French opera house sites and French newspapers to see how they capitalized the opera titles and found both Le Trouvère and Le trouvère, La Fille du régiment and La fille du régiment, etc.
However, given the inconsistency even in French usage, the fact that the Grove does use one of the actual French systems, and the vast number of references to French operas in Wikpedia, it's better to stick to only one system. And... not get into discussions of French grammar on the guidelines page, and certainly not to start randomly changing the titles of existing articles. So yes, Sparafucil, please change them back to the titles used in Grove. Best, Voceditenore ( talk) 08:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm. I see this might run and run, after noticing a recent series of changes in French opera titles with accompanying page moves etc., e.g. [5], [6], [7], and the ensuing kerfuffles on the talk pages. Anyhow, the guidelines we use are currently stated here as:
But... I think they should be reworded to make it clear that we are not stating a categorical rule about capitalization rules in various languages but we are stating the Grove rules, which we follow. Thus, reword simply to:
Voceditenore ( talk) 09:08, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Comment "Chaotic" is putting it mildly. First of all the 'rule' for capitalization on the French Project page on the English Wikipedia is at variance with the Manual of Style for the French Wikipedia. The French Wikipedia does not treat the indefinite article (un, une) the same way as the definite article (le, la, les) and also capitalizes any pre-posed adjectives or adverbs. See [8] But frankly, the Manual of Style on the French Wikipedia is itself at variance with both Le Petit Robert, and the Dictionnaire de citations françaises which treat all determiners (articles, numbers, demonstratives, etc.) the same.
Secondly, if you actually look at the way titles of works are rendered on the French Wikipedia, there is massive inconsistency, even according to their own rules. Below is a small sample of titles of works (operas, novels, paintings, etc.) as given in the French Wikipedia:
The system we use is one of the 'systems' used in France, albeit less commonly, and it is also the system used by the Bibliographie nationale française in their catalogue. Here's a sample page. [9] Note the following:
Look, no one here is trying to argue as to which of the sytems used in France (or on the French Project or on the French Wikipedia or on the Opera Project) is the "correct one". Or that "we know better" about the French language than anyone else. For one thing, the anyone else's don't seem to know themselves nor do they agree with each other. What we use is one of the systems used in France, and a system that gives a consistent guidance and format for opera titles. Note also that the Wikipedia French project only "suggests" a particular system. Voceditenore ( talk) 09:41, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
PS It's not just hundreds of articles that are involved, it's literally thousands. In addition to the 226 French language operas which have their own Wikpedia articles, those operas (and others which don't have their own article) are multiply mentioned and linked in articles about other operas, opera composers and librettists (French and otherwise), in singers' biographies, and in opera house histories. And I should point out that the French Project's suggestion is currently not followed consistently in their non-opera articles on the English Wikpedia either. Just a few out of hundreds of examples: The Red and the Black (French title given as Le Rouge et le Noir, which capitalizes both nouns not just the first one), The Black Tulip (French title given as La Tulipe Noire). Not to mention the multiple inconsistencies of capitalization for the French title in The Lady of the Camellias. Ditto the list of works in Alexandre Dumas, fils and in Stendhal, and the French painting titles in Jean-Honoré Fragonard. Voceditenore ( talk) 10:58, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Can we archive this now? -- Kleinzach ( talk) 04:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC)