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If you read both articles from the top to the end, you may find that they are actually talking about the same “place”, which is the opera house. The beginning of the Royal Opera, London article (the company), is heading to the correct direction (talking about the company) but as you read further, you can see that many of the points are all about the opera house, not much about the company itself.
One example, unlike other opera house articles, Music directors list for ROH is written in Royal Opera, London article (the company), not in the ROH article. Both of the external links in Royal Opera, London are pointing to the opera house and not to the opera company.
And many more, including opera singers that performed there etc. Why must names of operatic singers who performed in ROH were mentioned at the company article but not the opera house itself? (Read paragraph under the header: Covent Garden Opera Company. The whole paragraph is about performances, singers etc at the opera house but the header says "Company")
I am currently doing the translation for ROH and found that both articles can actually be used for the opera house. I know it is good to separate the company and the opera house but I do not see any good point having 2 separate articles if the info about the company is too little and has to be prolonged by putting the opera house history and events while those info supposed to be in the opera house article. Not only the names are almost the same, the “story” is about the same, don’t you think it can easily confused readers? To be frank, not all the people in this world know what is Royal opera house vs Royal Opera, London vs Covent Garden. To some people out there, those 3 represent the opera house, not to mentioned after reading the article. Can someone please revise the company article to sound more like the company, so then it shows clearly that the article is about the company instead of the opera house? - Jay 17:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Changed my mind. I've now had time to read the two articles much more carefully. I think I agree with Jay now. It's a bit of a mess. Separating the ballet company makes more sense since it has a much more independent history, and as an entity predates 1945.
The opera company is so intertwined with the opera house that it makes separating the two much harder. But even so, much of the administrative stuff currently in the 'company' article really belongs in the 'house' article, along with a much clearer explanation of how the place is organized. (I'm referring especially to the section Management, funding and politics, but also to the Chief Administrators at Covent Garden since 1945) For one thing the administrators mentioned ran the house not the company and the music directors have (and had) a wider brief than just the opera - the orchestra does work independent of opera perfs. The 'company' article needs to concentrate much more of the administration of the company itself in addition to post-1945 artistic 'highlights'.
I see from the talk page, that there was some controversy when the 'company' article was split off, with some editors quite opposed to it. Maybe all this should be taken to the talk pagess for the articles. In the meantime, I'll continue to link to the 'house' article in articles about singers and operas. Best, Voceditenore 20:33, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
The following statement in the article, "Now that opera companies (with a fixed cast) are a thing of the past," is untrue.
Most European opera companies still have a fixed staff of singers (sometimes on a salary), which are sometimes, but not always, joined by better-known guest artists. The terms "Prima Donna" and "Primo uomo" are still frequently used (either in the native language or in Italian), without negative connotation, to denote the most able or successful singers on staff. Miklósfai 12:25, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Since we sort of agreed to alternate male and female singers wherever possible, December would be the ladies' turn. Just to remind you of the suggestions so far...
Sparafucil suggested filling a gap he noticed in coverage of the New Music Divas " Dawn Upshaw and Meredith Monk have articles well underway, but Bethany Beardslee, Joan LaBarbara, Cathy Berberian, Judith Bettina, Jane Manning and others who have shaped the music of our own age all have rather skimpy stubs (if that)."
Kleinzach's suggestion was Great Contraltos: e.g. Clara Butt, Louise Homer, Ernestine Schumann-Heink, Kathleen Ferrier, Marian Anderson. "Taking existing (fairly long) articles on some major figures and bringing them up to project standard would give us benchmarks for future articles."
Any 'votes' or further suggestions? Best, Voceditenore 07:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
For those of you who don't belong to Opera-L, an interesting proposal surfaced the other day. [2] Voceditenore 10:46, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I have finished entering titles and authors, so all the data is there, much of it waiting to be further wikified. If someone has a nice idea of better organization, I'm interested in hearing it. 19:41, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
As I see it, "bibliography" includes works (i.e. discussions and analyses) about opera in fiction. This list is definitely not that. I'm the first to admit the name I chose is inelegant, but I could not think of one that was more specifically accurate as to what the list contains. The original name, "Opera in Fiction" would not do since all kinds of media would be implied. In any case, here it is on Wikipedia, so anyone can do anything to it. Now to start work on the "opera terms." kosboot ( talk) 04:30, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
We now have 3,892 articles about opera. (These are articles displaying the Opera Project banner.)
Here are some more figures to illustrate the development of the Opera Project to date:
From The opera corpus:
Category: Operas:
Articles about people:
Articles on voice types (almost all opera singers):
Total in voice categories above = 937
Articles about institutions etc.:
Technical articles about opera:
Descendant projects:
-- Kleinzach 06:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Is this really an opera as the article claims? Rmhermen 05:29, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Someone has posted a bio of this soprano in Greek. She is definitely notable (she played the part of Juno in René Jacobs' recording of La Calisto). My modern Greek is not too hot, but I will try to translate some of it. If anyone has any info in English, maybe we could add that and create at least a stub on her. Cheers. -- Folantin ( talk) 13:46, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to Jay's indefatigable work (and GuillaumeTell's original prototypes) we now have about 40 navigation boxes, designed as narrow columns on the top right of the pages.
However we also have a couple of other boxes with a different design: Template:Krenek operas and Template:Kurt Weill. These are neither dated, nor in alphabetical order, but they are collapsible and have the 'v.d.e' editing buttons.
Should the Krenek and Weill be redesigned as long column boxes? Should they go in dated, chronological order? Should we consider giving the whole series the 'v.d.e' buttons? Perhaps on a bar at the bottom of the box? (It's technically tricky but the Infobox Project would probably be happy to do it for us.) Any ideas? Best. -- Kleinzach 01:38, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I've now discovered how to put the 'v.d.e' on the bottom of the boxes. Here is an example: Template:Adams operas. Any comments? -- Kleinzach ( talk) 07:39, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
{{ Janacek operas}}
Sparafucil: I'd be happy to consider this (myself) if you can demonstrate how to do it. Could you rework the Template:Krenek operas? Position top right as agreed, chronological with dates (please remember to put these in as requested above), collapsed by default. Once we have a prototype it can be copied easily enough. On the other hand if it's not feasible, I suggest we go with the proven Adams model. -- Kleinzach ( talk) 23:46, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, I fiddled with changing "collapsable" to "expandable" in the code and other experiments before hitting on this: Template:Weill operas. Btw, my impatience to do anything tends to be inversely proportional to the chances of someone else beating me to it, but the dates will someday be added. I changed the order temporarily to group by genre, again with an eye to interesting others in taking on articles; I really don't intend to do anything about Jonny, though it obviously is an important article. Sparafucil ( talk) 11:51, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I put opera banner in all the talkpages - It is because, before we added “v.d.e”, some people may not know how to access or amend the template, but now they easily change it by hitting “e”. For protection, I believe the banner is important, so then people know that they should discuss with peopl in Opera Project before make any changes. - Jay 01:45, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Thought ye might like this - Adam Cuerden 18:39, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 40 | ← | Archive 43 | Archive 44 | Archive 45 | Archive 46 | Archive 47 | → | Archive 50 |
If you read both articles from the top to the end, you may find that they are actually talking about the same “place”, which is the opera house. The beginning of the Royal Opera, London article (the company), is heading to the correct direction (talking about the company) but as you read further, you can see that many of the points are all about the opera house, not much about the company itself.
One example, unlike other opera house articles, Music directors list for ROH is written in Royal Opera, London article (the company), not in the ROH article. Both of the external links in Royal Opera, London are pointing to the opera house and not to the opera company.
And many more, including opera singers that performed there etc. Why must names of operatic singers who performed in ROH were mentioned at the company article but not the opera house itself? (Read paragraph under the header: Covent Garden Opera Company. The whole paragraph is about performances, singers etc at the opera house but the header says "Company")
I am currently doing the translation for ROH and found that both articles can actually be used for the opera house. I know it is good to separate the company and the opera house but I do not see any good point having 2 separate articles if the info about the company is too little and has to be prolonged by putting the opera house history and events while those info supposed to be in the opera house article. Not only the names are almost the same, the “story” is about the same, don’t you think it can easily confused readers? To be frank, not all the people in this world know what is Royal opera house vs Royal Opera, London vs Covent Garden. To some people out there, those 3 represent the opera house, not to mentioned after reading the article. Can someone please revise the company article to sound more like the company, so then it shows clearly that the article is about the company instead of the opera house? - Jay 17:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Changed my mind. I've now had time to read the two articles much more carefully. I think I agree with Jay now. It's a bit of a mess. Separating the ballet company makes more sense since it has a much more independent history, and as an entity predates 1945.
The opera company is so intertwined with the opera house that it makes separating the two much harder. But even so, much of the administrative stuff currently in the 'company' article really belongs in the 'house' article, along with a much clearer explanation of how the place is organized. (I'm referring especially to the section Management, funding and politics, but also to the Chief Administrators at Covent Garden since 1945) For one thing the administrators mentioned ran the house not the company and the music directors have (and had) a wider brief than just the opera - the orchestra does work independent of opera perfs. The 'company' article needs to concentrate much more of the administration of the company itself in addition to post-1945 artistic 'highlights'.
I see from the talk page, that there was some controversy when the 'company' article was split off, with some editors quite opposed to it. Maybe all this should be taken to the talk pagess for the articles. In the meantime, I'll continue to link to the 'house' article in articles about singers and operas. Best, Voceditenore 20:33, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
The following statement in the article, "Now that opera companies (with a fixed cast) are a thing of the past," is untrue.
Most European opera companies still have a fixed staff of singers (sometimes on a salary), which are sometimes, but not always, joined by better-known guest artists. The terms "Prima Donna" and "Primo uomo" are still frequently used (either in the native language or in Italian), without negative connotation, to denote the most able or successful singers on staff. Miklósfai 12:25, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Since we sort of agreed to alternate male and female singers wherever possible, December would be the ladies' turn. Just to remind you of the suggestions so far...
Sparafucil suggested filling a gap he noticed in coverage of the New Music Divas " Dawn Upshaw and Meredith Monk have articles well underway, but Bethany Beardslee, Joan LaBarbara, Cathy Berberian, Judith Bettina, Jane Manning and others who have shaped the music of our own age all have rather skimpy stubs (if that)."
Kleinzach's suggestion was Great Contraltos: e.g. Clara Butt, Louise Homer, Ernestine Schumann-Heink, Kathleen Ferrier, Marian Anderson. "Taking existing (fairly long) articles on some major figures and bringing them up to project standard would give us benchmarks for future articles."
Any 'votes' or further suggestions? Best, Voceditenore 07:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
For those of you who don't belong to Opera-L, an interesting proposal surfaced the other day. [2] Voceditenore 10:46, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I have finished entering titles and authors, so all the data is there, much of it waiting to be further wikified. If someone has a nice idea of better organization, I'm interested in hearing it. 19:41, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
As I see it, "bibliography" includes works (i.e. discussions and analyses) about opera in fiction. This list is definitely not that. I'm the first to admit the name I chose is inelegant, but I could not think of one that was more specifically accurate as to what the list contains. The original name, "Opera in Fiction" would not do since all kinds of media would be implied. In any case, here it is on Wikipedia, so anyone can do anything to it. Now to start work on the "opera terms." kosboot ( talk) 04:30, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
We now have 3,892 articles about opera. (These are articles displaying the Opera Project banner.)
Here are some more figures to illustrate the development of the Opera Project to date:
From The opera corpus:
Category: Operas:
Articles about people:
Articles on voice types (almost all opera singers):
Total in voice categories above = 937
Articles about institutions etc.:
Technical articles about opera:
Descendant projects:
-- Kleinzach 06:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Is this really an opera as the article claims? Rmhermen 05:29, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Someone has posted a bio of this soprano in Greek. She is definitely notable (she played the part of Juno in René Jacobs' recording of La Calisto). My modern Greek is not too hot, but I will try to translate some of it. If anyone has any info in English, maybe we could add that and create at least a stub on her. Cheers. -- Folantin ( talk) 13:46, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to Jay's indefatigable work (and GuillaumeTell's original prototypes) we now have about 40 navigation boxes, designed as narrow columns on the top right of the pages.
However we also have a couple of other boxes with a different design: Template:Krenek operas and Template:Kurt Weill. These are neither dated, nor in alphabetical order, but they are collapsible and have the 'v.d.e' editing buttons.
Should the Krenek and Weill be redesigned as long column boxes? Should they go in dated, chronological order? Should we consider giving the whole series the 'v.d.e' buttons? Perhaps on a bar at the bottom of the box? (It's technically tricky but the Infobox Project would probably be happy to do it for us.) Any ideas? Best. -- Kleinzach 01:38, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I've now discovered how to put the 'v.d.e' on the bottom of the boxes. Here is an example: Template:Adams operas. Any comments? -- Kleinzach ( talk) 07:39, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
{{ Janacek operas}}
Sparafucil: I'd be happy to consider this (myself) if you can demonstrate how to do it. Could you rework the Template:Krenek operas? Position top right as agreed, chronological with dates (please remember to put these in as requested above), collapsed by default. Once we have a prototype it can be copied easily enough. On the other hand if it's not feasible, I suggest we go with the proven Adams model. -- Kleinzach ( talk) 23:46, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, I fiddled with changing "collapsable" to "expandable" in the code and other experiments before hitting on this: Template:Weill operas. Btw, my impatience to do anything tends to be inversely proportional to the chances of someone else beating me to it, but the dates will someday be added. I changed the order temporarily to group by genre, again with an eye to interesting others in taking on articles; I really don't intend to do anything about Jonny, though it obviously is an important article. Sparafucil ( talk) 11:51, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I put opera banner in all the talkpages - It is because, before we added “v.d.e”, some people may not know how to access or amend the template, but now they easily change it by hitting “e”. For protection, I believe the banner is important, so then people know that they should discuss with peopl in Opera Project before make any changes. - Jay 01:45, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Thought ye might like this - Adam Cuerden 18:39, 23 November 2007 (UTC)