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I've been finding a number of copyviols on light opera articles. The latest one is a synopsis of La poupée, an operetta by Edmond Audran has been taken in its entirety from Boosey and Hawkes. (We just had a similar problem with Les cloches de Corneville.)
We've been through this problem before with a series of editors who exclusively use online sources and don't take copyright seriously. In this case the editor is Ssilvers. I've suggested to him that he shouldn't copy and paste, that he should start using proper sources instead of unrealiable tertiary online ones, make sure articles are NPOV and not overhelmingly Anglo-American-centric etc. etc. but he doesn't agree. Perhaps it would be better if he put his case here rather than on obscure talk pages?
(Many of the articles on the lighter French and German rep. are sub-standard and need attention - if anyone has the time and inclination.) -- Kleinzach 02:19, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
At La poupée, I inadvertently neglected to finish my task of rewriting the summary, when I first set up the stub long ago, but I have done this now. If anyone can improve it, please do. Thanks to Kleinzach for pointing this out. As far as I know, I have not made a similar mistake anywhere else, and I will certainly correct it if it comes to my attention. I have written several hundred full-blown articles on Wikipedia (not just stubs, like La poupée) and expanded hundreds more, and I am sure I have made some errors along the way. Please assume good faith. In the meantime, I believe that Kleinzach's premise, that complete descriptions of extremely successful English-language adaptations of European operettas should not be given, is wrong. These operettas were often as successful, or more successful in their English-language adaptations than they were in the original languages. In the case of La poupée, the operetta ran for over 500 consecutive performances in London and many revivals. Les cloches de Corneville was the most successful English-language work of musical theatre in its time. So, obviously, these translations and adaptations need to be described on Wikipedia. I think Kleinzach has been wrong in trying to prevent these articles from being expanded, and having the English-language translations and adaptations fully described. Please see the talk page at Les cloches de Corneville for a good discussion of this debate. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 13:05, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I do not agree that the recordings are invariably in the original language. Also, where I have given the English-language song list, in nearly every case, it conforms to the song list at the Midi webpage that is referenced at the bottom of the articles, and that webpage contains links to complete midi files and often all the accompanying lyrics, as well as, often, cast lists from the extremely successful and obviously notable London productions. A marvellous resource! I originally though that it was obvious to the reader that the English language song-names were taken from the English-language versions, but on reflection, I agree that the articles should specify that the lyrics are taken from the English-language versions. -- Ssilvers 18:54, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
If Kleinzach would work to improve these articles instead of merely criticizing the (I think) very useful information that I have added to these articles (or the fact that I have created them at all), it would be far more constructive. In every case, I have done my utmost to satisfy any concerns that he has raised. I wish he would stop making these accusations, and I think that an examination of Kleinzach's talk-page messages on all these various operettas, and his various edit summaries, will demonstrate are merely meanspirited. -- Ssilvers 18:54, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I made a sincere (and, I think, very productive) effort to help out with the Opera Project's Jacques Offenbach collaboration of the month and continued to improve those articles afterwards. If one examines the edit history of Jacques Offenbach and the various blue-linked Offenbach operettas up to and about July 13 (the date of my above-bolded unsuccessful attempt at humor), I think it will be very clear that Kleinzach reacted adversely first, to some edits in the Offenbach article that were not even mine, and second, to my copying of a French song list into an article, where the source did not have proper French punctuation. If Kleinzach didn't think that the song list that I found was helpful, he could simply have deleted it, noting the problem and that the clean-up would be too time-consuming. Instead, he did the clean-up, and the above-bolded quote was my unsuccessful attempt at humor. His and my efforts together (and also the efforts of GT) resulted in significant improvement in the Offenbach and related articles on Wikipedia over the course of a couple of months. Nevertheless, he was so unpleasant about it that, since July, I have done my best to minimize any work on Wikipedia that might put me in contact with Kleinzach. However, the operettas that were extremely successful on the London stage in the Victorian and Edwardian eras are of interest to me, and I have created or expanded articles on many of the most successful ones. It is not easy to create or expand these articles, because there is often a limited amount of information available about them. As Kleinzach pointed out, Grove's hard copy versions do not even have an entry on some of them, despite their great popularity on the London stage. Kleinzach has identified some mistakes that I have made, and I have done my best to correct those mistakes. Let's try to to live in peace. -- Ssilvers 02:06, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
One of the problems in this... er... 'discussion' is that copy vio has been mixed in with criticisms about the article's focus, emphasis or whatever. The latter is potentially a moot point. But the former is a not. I'm just going to confine my comments to the copy vio issue:
All the best. Voceditenore 11:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Marc Shepherd. I have been collaborating with Ssilvers since I joined Wikipedia in the beginning of April. The accusations made about him are just wrong. All of the material in Wikipedia comes from other sources - otherwise it would be WP:OR. What is research and what is copyvio depends on how the sources are used. Ssilvers finds and uses many sources that I have not been able to find, and he has helped me to improve many articles. His research, as far as I can see, is generally of very high quality. The fact that he made a mistake in the La Poupee article only proves that he is a very busy editor who has contributed a wealth of information to Wikipedia. He corrected that error as soon as Kleinzach pointed it out. I also disagree that there was any copyright violation in the Les cloches article. It is clear that Ssilvers is very concerned with a high level of quality in wikipedia articles. I recently collaborated with him on articles about Florence St. John, Letty Lind, Nellie Farren, Maritana, and Phyllis Dare, to name just a few. He has added dozens and dozens of articles about Edwardian musical comedies, composers, writers, and producers of the Victorian and Edwardian eras when there were no articles about these things at all a year ago. I am glad to see that people have put a stop to this witch hunt. Broadwaygal 15:28, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
As soon as the restriction period over, it has been 4 edits done by 24.222.2.179 and 84.44.145.179 to mess-up the whole article and change of his birth year again. What shall I do? Is it possible to ask for permanent restriction to protect the article? - Jay 14:16, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Just a note that this is moving towards FA, with any luck. Feel free to contribute, either to the peer review or more directly. Adam Cuerden talk 00:38, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 35 | ← | Archive 40 | Archive 41 | Archive 42 | Archive 43 | Archive 44 | Archive 45 |
I've been finding a number of copyviols on light opera articles. The latest one is a synopsis of La poupée, an operetta by Edmond Audran has been taken in its entirety from Boosey and Hawkes. (We just had a similar problem with Les cloches de Corneville.)
We've been through this problem before with a series of editors who exclusively use online sources and don't take copyright seriously. In this case the editor is Ssilvers. I've suggested to him that he shouldn't copy and paste, that he should start using proper sources instead of unrealiable tertiary online ones, make sure articles are NPOV and not overhelmingly Anglo-American-centric etc. etc. but he doesn't agree. Perhaps it would be better if he put his case here rather than on obscure talk pages?
(Many of the articles on the lighter French and German rep. are sub-standard and need attention - if anyone has the time and inclination.) -- Kleinzach 02:19, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
At La poupée, I inadvertently neglected to finish my task of rewriting the summary, when I first set up the stub long ago, but I have done this now. If anyone can improve it, please do. Thanks to Kleinzach for pointing this out. As far as I know, I have not made a similar mistake anywhere else, and I will certainly correct it if it comes to my attention. I have written several hundred full-blown articles on Wikipedia (not just stubs, like La poupée) and expanded hundreds more, and I am sure I have made some errors along the way. Please assume good faith. In the meantime, I believe that Kleinzach's premise, that complete descriptions of extremely successful English-language adaptations of European operettas should not be given, is wrong. These operettas were often as successful, or more successful in their English-language adaptations than they were in the original languages. In the case of La poupée, the operetta ran for over 500 consecutive performances in London and many revivals. Les cloches de Corneville was the most successful English-language work of musical theatre in its time. So, obviously, these translations and adaptations need to be described on Wikipedia. I think Kleinzach has been wrong in trying to prevent these articles from being expanded, and having the English-language translations and adaptations fully described. Please see the talk page at Les cloches de Corneville for a good discussion of this debate. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 13:05, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I do not agree that the recordings are invariably in the original language. Also, where I have given the English-language song list, in nearly every case, it conforms to the song list at the Midi webpage that is referenced at the bottom of the articles, and that webpage contains links to complete midi files and often all the accompanying lyrics, as well as, often, cast lists from the extremely successful and obviously notable London productions. A marvellous resource! I originally though that it was obvious to the reader that the English language song-names were taken from the English-language versions, but on reflection, I agree that the articles should specify that the lyrics are taken from the English-language versions. -- Ssilvers 18:54, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
If Kleinzach would work to improve these articles instead of merely criticizing the (I think) very useful information that I have added to these articles (or the fact that I have created them at all), it would be far more constructive. In every case, I have done my utmost to satisfy any concerns that he has raised. I wish he would stop making these accusations, and I think that an examination of Kleinzach's talk-page messages on all these various operettas, and his various edit summaries, will demonstrate are merely meanspirited. -- Ssilvers 18:54, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I made a sincere (and, I think, very productive) effort to help out with the Opera Project's Jacques Offenbach collaboration of the month and continued to improve those articles afterwards. If one examines the edit history of Jacques Offenbach and the various blue-linked Offenbach operettas up to and about July 13 (the date of my above-bolded unsuccessful attempt at humor), I think it will be very clear that Kleinzach reacted adversely first, to some edits in the Offenbach article that were not even mine, and second, to my copying of a French song list into an article, where the source did not have proper French punctuation. If Kleinzach didn't think that the song list that I found was helpful, he could simply have deleted it, noting the problem and that the clean-up would be too time-consuming. Instead, he did the clean-up, and the above-bolded quote was my unsuccessful attempt at humor. His and my efforts together (and also the efforts of GT) resulted in significant improvement in the Offenbach and related articles on Wikipedia over the course of a couple of months. Nevertheless, he was so unpleasant about it that, since July, I have done my best to minimize any work on Wikipedia that might put me in contact with Kleinzach. However, the operettas that were extremely successful on the London stage in the Victorian and Edwardian eras are of interest to me, and I have created or expanded articles on many of the most successful ones. It is not easy to create or expand these articles, because there is often a limited amount of information available about them. As Kleinzach pointed out, Grove's hard copy versions do not even have an entry on some of them, despite their great popularity on the London stage. Kleinzach has identified some mistakes that I have made, and I have done my best to correct those mistakes. Let's try to to live in peace. -- Ssilvers 02:06, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
One of the problems in this... er... 'discussion' is that copy vio has been mixed in with criticisms about the article's focus, emphasis or whatever. The latter is potentially a moot point. But the former is a not. I'm just going to confine my comments to the copy vio issue:
All the best. Voceditenore 11:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Marc Shepherd. I have been collaborating with Ssilvers since I joined Wikipedia in the beginning of April. The accusations made about him are just wrong. All of the material in Wikipedia comes from other sources - otherwise it would be WP:OR. What is research and what is copyvio depends on how the sources are used. Ssilvers finds and uses many sources that I have not been able to find, and he has helped me to improve many articles. His research, as far as I can see, is generally of very high quality. The fact that he made a mistake in the La Poupee article only proves that he is a very busy editor who has contributed a wealth of information to Wikipedia. He corrected that error as soon as Kleinzach pointed it out. I also disagree that there was any copyright violation in the Les cloches article. It is clear that Ssilvers is very concerned with a high level of quality in wikipedia articles. I recently collaborated with him on articles about Florence St. John, Letty Lind, Nellie Farren, Maritana, and Phyllis Dare, to name just a few. He has added dozens and dozens of articles about Edwardian musical comedies, composers, writers, and producers of the Victorian and Edwardian eras when there were no articles about these things at all a year ago. I am glad to see that people have put a stop to this witch hunt. Broadwaygal 15:28, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
As soon as the restriction period over, it has been 4 edits done by 24.222.2.179 and 84.44.145.179 to mess-up the whole article and change of his birth year again. What shall I do? Is it possible to ask for permanent restriction to protect the article? - Jay 14:16, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Just a note that this is moving towards FA, with any luck. Feel free to contribute, either to the peer review or more directly. Adam Cuerden talk 00:38, 16 October 2007 (UTC)