![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | ← | Archive 32 | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 | Archive 36 | → | Archive 40 |
The Category:Operas is now reconstituted and has been checked against The opera corpus. There are 1,027 articles which compares to approx. 1,635 titles liasted in The opera corpus and 1,800 articles in the New Grove Dictionary of Opera. This means that one third of the articles here are on operas, arguably the strongest area of our coverage. -- Kleinzach 02:55, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
We've also now found a way of counting red links on The opera corpus. According to the figures a total of 727 opera and 15 composer red-linked articles remain to be written - approximately one third of the complete list. -- Kleinzach 03:20, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Quoted from this. - Does it means I have to remove the images in List of recordings by Plácido Domingo article? I was hoping if I could keep them. The article and the images are pretty much related. What do guys think? It looks empty without the CD or DVD covers. Please.. and thank you. - Jay 18:11, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
What we need on the project page is a simple, unambiguous text. We are not trying to refine or develop any WP policy. We are simply trying to explain how it works for us. The first paragraph (as agreed here) presents no problem, but the second paragraph is unclear. Would you like to revise it? (It's not necessary to cover special cases like galleries, sound media etc. in any case this section is about images.) Or alternatively I can write it if you prefer.
I published many photographs on my website between 1999 and 2005. I always obtained permission first and in almost every case the usage was conditional. (In WP-speak it was 'non-free'.)
The way it works is that a company (an agent, recording company, or opera company) pays a photographer to take some photos. The images are then used by the company, under an implied licence, for a particular purpose (e.g. pictures of a Met Tosca are used to promote Tosca at the Met). The company make the images available to other parties (magazines etc.) on the basis that usage remained strictly within the terms of the licence (with required credits). The photographer normally retains the copyright in the hope of being able to use the images a second time, perhaps for an exhibition, or a book or whatever.
In the case of WP, almost all the images are being lifted from other websites without anyone having the courtesy to contact the owners. They are uncredited and are being used outside the terms of the licence because we are not reviewing or promoting anything here. This is in contrast to the use of, say CD covers on Amazon, where everything is perfectly legal and straighforward because they are selling the recordings (not to mention receiving the images from the record companies).
The situation on WP is chaotic. Everyone knows that huge numbers of 'non-free' images are being published. However legal action to establish violations would be extremely difficult and expensive for the copyright holders. So the real issue here is Wikipedia's reputation. It looks shoddy - and it is shoddy - to have all this stuff on WP.
IMO if we want to have images we should contact the owners, ask for it and if we are successful put the material in WikiCommons. Final thought: if we are strict about not using non-free content we are more likely to get permission to use good material. (And if you've got this far thanks for reading this!) -- Kleinzach 01:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes I agree, except possibly for the sentence, "Even on long articles, no more than 5 fair use images are really permissible (as a rough guide), and fair use media should not be used when free media will do." which seems to imply that using fair use images is OK after all. I think it's worth trying to nail this down otherwise people won't follow it. How about the following version of the text:
We welcome contributions of good quality photographs for articles about operas, singers and composers etc. Images must either be already in the public domain or have written permission from the photographers (or copyright holders) to release them under a free license. Under this arrangement the holder (who would be credited) retains the copyright of the work, but grants permission to others to freely use and publish the image.
Regrettably we are unable to use photos of opera singers etc. on a 'fair use'/'fair dealing' basis in articles on the singers themselves. 'Fair use'/'fair dealing' images may only be acceptable in articles about actual publications, recordings etc. When it is necessary, fair use rationales must be provided. Fair use images cannot be used for purely decorative purposes and they must be closely tied to the article text ( a good example is at Concerto delle donne). (Galleries, i.e. collections of fair use material, whether visual or audio, are not permitted under any circumstances.)
Please note that this is an attempt at consensus, rather than my own interpretation of WP policy! -- Kleinzach 11:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Jay we are all trying to follow the basic WP policies here. It's not for me or anybody else here to arbitrate or tell you what to do. It's really for you to understand how copytright works and how it applies to WP. The text on the project page - and I have just posted a new version (in the absence of any objections!) which I hope will be clearer - gives links to the various documents. If it still isn't clear then please say so. If it is clear then let's follow it. OK? Is that reasonable? -- Kleinzach 00:22, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
In my peregrinations to find opera singer articles that needed portraits, I removed the OP banner from Hayley Westenra (added by bot). I left it on Cinderella Liao for now, but plastered the article with several other tags, for obvious reasons, and have put friendly warnings on the (sole) editor's talk page, User talk:Blo, again for obvious reasons.
As for real sopranos, I managed to add public domain portraits for Nancy Storace, Elisabeth Olin, and Faustina Bordoni. Best, Voceditenore 08:29, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Update re Cinderella Liao. The article is currently up for deletion [1] But whether it stays or not, I've removed the Opera Project banner. She's never sung in an opera (although I guess she's hoping to some day). So far she has only sung a few arias in concerts with youth and student orchestras. Best, Voceditenore 07:41, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi everyone. I just started the page for Salieri's opera La cifra. I've only been able to find one good resource on the web for the opera (and it's in Dutch). I'd appriciate help from anyone who may know of more resources. Nrswanson 05:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi everyone. I created a page for another Salieri opera Europa Riconosciuta. Nrswanson 07:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately the synopsis is still substantially the same as the La Scala text. I don't think that changing the odd word here and there makes it usable on WP. I don't wish to be difficult about this, but IMO if we start taking texts and put them up with small changes it's going to cause us problems in the future. If we write our own synopses, instead of using other people's, then we'll be alright. I think we have to delete this one. -- Kleinzach 13:22, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately we still have the problem of the synopsis. I'm disappointed that Nrswanson hasn't addressed this. Here is an example of the problem - from the introduction - comparing the WP article Europa Riconosciuta with the text on the La Scala website. Text which is in common is in bold:
Wikipedia Europa Riconosciuta version:
La Scala website version:
It's obvious that our version is a re-hash of Scala's. -- Kleinzach 07:05, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Achieving balance. Despite my caveats, I do think we have to avoid being too picky about this. If I had never seen La Scala's English synopsis and instead worked directly from the stage directions in the original libretto, I'm sure my translation would show considerable similarities to La Scala's, simply because there is often only one optimal way to translate a phrase or sentence into idiomatic English. Best Voceditenore 07:41, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | ← | Archive 32 | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 | Archive 36 | → | Archive 40 |
The Category:Operas is now reconstituted and has been checked against The opera corpus. There are 1,027 articles which compares to approx. 1,635 titles liasted in The opera corpus and 1,800 articles in the New Grove Dictionary of Opera. This means that one third of the articles here are on operas, arguably the strongest area of our coverage. -- Kleinzach 02:55, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
We've also now found a way of counting red links on The opera corpus. According to the figures a total of 727 opera and 15 composer red-linked articles remain to be written - approximately one third of the complete list. -- Kleinzach 03:20, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Quoted from this. - Does it means I have to remove the images in List of recordings by Plácido Domingo article? I was hoping if I could keep them. The article and the images are pretty much related. What do guys think? It looks empty without the CD or DVD covers. Please.. and thank you. - Jay 18:11, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
What we need on the project page is a simple, unambiguous text. We are not trying to refine or develop any WP policy. We are simply trying to explain how it works for us. The first paragraph (as agreed here) presents no problem, but the second paragraph is unclear. Would you like to revise it? (It's not necessary to cover special cases like galleries, sound media etc. in any case this section is about images.) Or alternatively I can write it if you prefer.
I published many photographs on my website between 1999 and 2005. I always obtained permission first and in almost every case the usage was conditional. (In WP-speak it was 'non-free'.)
The way it works is that a company (an agent, recording company, or opera company) pays a photographer to take some photos. The images are then used by the company, under an implied licence, for a particular purpose (e.g. pictures of a Met Tosca are used to promote Tosca at the Met). The company make the images available to other parties (magazines etc.) on the basis that usage remained strictly within the terms of the licence (with required credits). The photographer normally retains the copyright in the hope of being able to use the images a second time, perhaps for an exhibition, or a book or whatever.
In the case of WP, almost all the images are being lifted from other websites without anyone having the courtesy to contact the owners. They are uncredited and are being used outside the terms of the licence because we are not reviewing or promoting anything here. This is in contrast to the use of, say CD covers on Amazon, where everything is perfectly legal and straighforward because they are selling the recordings (not to mention receiving the images from the record companies).
The situation on WP is chaotic. Everyone knows that huge numbers of 'non-free' images are being published. However legal action to establish violations would be extremely difficult and expensive for the copyright holders. So the real issue here is Wikipedia's reputation. It looks shoddy - and it is shoddy - to have all this stuff on WP.
IMO if we want to have images we should contact the owners, ask for it and if we are successful put the material in WikiCommons. Final thought: if we are strict about not using non-free content we are more likely to get permission to use good material. (And if you've got this far thanks for reading this!) -- Kleinzach 01:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes I agree, except possibly for the sentence, "Even on long articles, no more than 5 fair use images are really permissible (as a rough guide), and fair use media should not be used when free media will do." which seems to imply that using fair use images is OK after all. I think it's worth trying to nail this down otherwise people won't follow it. How about the following version of the text:
We welcome contributions of good quality photographs for articles about operas, singers and composers etc. Images must either be already in the public domain or have written permission from the photographers (or copyright holders) to release them under a free license. Under this arrangement the holder (who would be credited) retains the copyright of the work, but grants permission to others to freely use and publish the image.
Regrettably we are unable to use photos of opera singers etc. on a 'fair use'/'fair dealing' basis in articles on the singers themselves. 'Fair use'/'fair dealing' images may only be acceptable in articles about actual publications, recordings etc. When it is necessary, fair use rationales must be provided. Fair use images cannot be used for purely decorative purposes and they must be closely tied to the article text ( a good example is at Concerto delle donne). (Galleries, i.e. collections of fair use material, whether visual or audio, are not permitted under any circumstances.)
Please note that this is an attempt at consensus, rather than my own interpretation of WP policy! -- Kleinzach 11:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Jay we are all trying to follow the basic WP policies here. It's not for me or anybody else here to arbitrate or tell you what to do. It's really for you to understand how copytright works and how it applies to WP. The text on the project page - and I have just posted a new version (in the absence of any objections!) which I hope will be clearer - gives links to the various documents. If it still isn't clear then please say so. If it is clear then let's follow it. OK? Is that reasonable? -- Kleinzach 00:22, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
In my peregrinations to find opera singer articles that needed portraits, I removed the OP banner from Hayley Westenra (added by bot). I left it on Cinderella Liao for now, but plastered the article with several other tags, for obvious reasons, and have put friendly warnings on the (sole) editor's talk page, User talk:Blo, again for obvious reasons.
As for real sopranos, I managed to add public domain portraits for Nancy Storace, Elisabeth Olin, and Faustina Bordoni. Best, Voceditenore 08:29, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Update re Cinderella Liao. The article is currently up for deletion [1] But whether it stays or not, I've removed the Opera Project banner. She's never sung in an opera (although I guess she's hoping to some day). So far she has only sung a few arias in concerts with youth and student orchestras. Best, Voceditenore 07:41, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi everyone. I just started the page for Salieri's opera La cifra. I've only been able to find one good resource on the web for the opera (and it's in Dutch). I'd appriciate help from anyone who may know of more resources. Nrswanson 05:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi everyone. I created a page for another Salieri opera Europa Riconosciuta. Nrswanson 07:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately the synopsis is still substantially the same as the La Scala text. I don't think that changing the odd word here and there makes it usable on WP. I don't wish to be difficult about this, but IMO if we start taking texts and put them up with small changes it's going to cause us problems in the future. If we write our own synopses, instead of using other people's, then we'll be alright. I think we have to delete this one. -- Kleinzach 13:22, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately we still have the problem of the synopsis. I'm disappointed that Nrswanson hasn't addressed this. Here is an example of the problem - from the introduction - comparing the WP article Europa Riconosciuta with the text on the La Scala website. Text which is in common is in bold:
Wikipedia Europa Riconosciuta version:
La Scala website version:
It's obvious that our version is a re-hash of Scala's. -- Kleinzach 07:05, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Achieving balance. Despite my caveats, I do think we have to avoid being too picky about this. If I had never seen La Scala's English synopsis and instead worked directly from the stage directions in the original libretto, I'm sure my translation would show considerable similarities to La Scala's, simply because there is often only one optimal way to translate a phrase or sentence into idiomatic English. Best Voceditenore 07:41, 27 June 2007 (UTC)