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Working through my opera programmes, I discovered I had the text and programme notes for this Turnage piece that ENO performed with From the House of the Dead about ten years back, describing it as a Monodrama. However I don't detect a clear narrative thread, rather it seems to be the reminiscences of an imprisoned woman who killed her violent husband. SO... what does the hosue think? -- Peter cohen 23:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I've just noticed a minor addition by the above user to the Wieland Wagner page and, having looked at his contributions which seem to be mainly about opera singers, I decided to encourage him this way. With luck he might even know somethign about those singers we want articles on.-- Peter cohen 07:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Could someone look at Rossini’s Tancredi. Someone added "For the fictional characters of the series Prison Break, see Sara Tancredi and Frank Tancredi". May I know what is the connection between those last name and the opera? It doesnt look "right" to me. - Jay 14:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Is here, for those who may not be watching the page. Fireplace 20:50, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
This project used to be friendly - that's why it was successful, that's why we all enjoyed being here. In the last month we have seen edit warring over infoboxes, preemptive editing and warring over categories, and this morning I see there is a new edit war breaking out over lists, see List of opera houses.
I think we should make it clear that this is not the way we want it. I propose we put the following on the Project page.
The Opera Project believes in collaboration. Proposals regarding major or controversial issues are made on the Talk Page. They are then discussed by interested editors and contributors. Consensus is reached, if necessary through compromise. Only then are decisions implemented. The project deplores preemptive editing and edit warring.
All comments, criticisms, alternative ideas and rewording most welcome - but it's time to do something about this. Thanks. -- Kleinzach 02:31, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Thank you to everybody. This is not meant to retrospective. 'Preemptive editing' is perhaps an awkward phrase. What I was referring to was editing before discussion. IMO we have been successful when we talked first, defined an objective and all worked together to an agreed standard of accuracy. An excellent example of collaboration was the List of opera librettists. Anyway I hope we can agree a text expressing our values to go on the project page. -- Kleinzach 11:11, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Suggested rephrase:
Edit warring is evil and strongly deplored, so don't. Be bold, and encourage others to be so, but if you encounter opposition discuss matters calmly, either with the user in question on the article's talk page, or here if preferred. Do not continue reverting in a revert-war.
That's in line with policy. There's no reason why we can't have our own abbreviation of it. I find suggestions of any hostility to newcomers rather misplaced. Newcomers are usually welcomed, and on several occasions we've fixed up copy-editing arrangements for those for whom English is not their first language. I do not recognise large portions of the above criticism as being in touch with the record. Moreschi Talk 11:44, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Edit warring is disruptive and deplored, so don't. Be bold, and encourage others to be so, but if you encounter opposition discuss matters calmly, either with the user in question on the article's talk page, or here if preferred. Do not continue reverting in a revert-war. Please remember to be WP:CIVIL at all times, and remember that you may be wrong; do not assume that someone with whom you disagree misunderstands what they are talking about.
I have largely stayed away from the Opera project for the last year because of one editor's unpleasantness. Perhaps if this editor were kinder to everyone, newbies would feel more welcome. I notice that this editor is very civil to some people, but caustic and unpleasant to others. I'm just mentioning my own experience here, since you brought up the subject. -- Ssilvers 13:51, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
We've been diverted. Is there agreement on using Moreschi's version on the project page? Here it is again:
Edit warring is evil and strongly deplored, so don't. Be bold, and encourage others to be so, but if you encounter opposition discuss matters calmly, either with the user in question on the article's talk page, or here if preferred. Do not continue reverting in a revert-war.
But is it adequate as a reference to use when an edit war starts, bearing in mind that aggressive behavoiur almost always precedes the socializing experience here? Here is an alternative:
The Opera Project believes in collaboration and compromise. Edit warring is evil and strongly deplored, so don't do it. Take the initiative and be bold, but if you encounter opposition discuss matters calmly, either with the user in question on the article's talk page, or here if a wider audience is desirable. Do not indulge in a revert-war.
(Hoping we can cut the WTF? OMG! TMD TLA. ARG! to a minimum. The text above also doesn't deal with bots and AWB editing so I am going to make a separate suggestion to cover these later.) -- Kleinzach 03:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I'll be away for a chunk of August so I've been doing some work on the composers agreed for then in advance. Note for those writing Salieri articles: our German friends appear to have excellent coverage of Salieri's operas, as can be seen here, where there are plenty of bluelinks. There's no reason why we can't translate their material for use over here, and when writing articles here we should remember to do the interwiki links (format: [[de:Article title over there/Name of opera]]. Cheers, Moreschi Talk 12:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I wrote about Catherine Malfitano, the existing article was too short with only 2 lines. BTW, do we have any standard format for operatic performers to follow? It would be great if any of you could put up a photo to her article. - Jay 15:29, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I have now created a working list of categories to give to Satyrbot.
The conversation on the bot has got a bit fragmented and it will make life easier for me, now that the list has been created if all the talk happens in this topic. Below are a number of topics for discussion or decisions I've made. Please comment under each. So I have only one place to look.
In a reply to a question above, please note that there is Category:Opera oratorios. This is the obvious place to put all those awkward cases. It belongs both to the operas and oratorios categories. I've included it in the list, but not oratorios.
G&S tagged items will be ignored. I have removed Category:Operas by Arthur Sullivan, and categories with G&S in the name from the list for the bot.
I am including Wagner in the list for the bot. Last time I looked there were only two of us signed up for it. Category:Richard Wagner has been included, but I have pruned the subcategories such as Wagnerites and anti-Wagnerites.
I notice that Category:Operettas by Johann Strauss II appears in the list of operas by composers, but a similar list for Lehar does not. Given the name, I would prefer to position it under Category:Operettas. What do others think?
I agree. Operas by composername will make sense for all the operetta composers (but shouldn't there be a minimum number of operas by each composer with his/her own category?). -- Ssilvers 14:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I have now gone and done the deed and repalced with Operas by JS2
I have explicitly included categories with opera or operatic in their names, e.g. category:Welsh operatic baritones. I have excluded more general categories such as category:sopranos, as they might not all sing opera. I have decided, however, to include category:divas, as they are more or less by definition operatic.
If you create a new category or have done so after 12 on today's datestamp, then please let me know, as I shan't be keeping an eye out for new categories. I have noticed, for example, that not all the opera by year categories exist. If new ones get added and I don't know, then the bot won't know either. Similarly, I shall at some point be creating a category for operas by John Metcalf. I shall have to remind myself to add it to the bot list.
As for the singer categories, should we perhaps have operatic sopranos etc.? If other music projects decide that it is sensible and appropriate to classify e.g. jazz singers by voice range, then without our name on the class, we'll have little argument for keeping them out.-- Peter cohen 11:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Can we please review it before we set things going. In particular, are we going to include ratings? And as we have a bot tagging articles have just created with their own sweat and tears, is it politer to change the opening to "This article falls within the scope of WikiProject:Opera" which strikes me as less aggressive.
I look forward to comments -- Peter cohen 16:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | → | Archive 30 |
Working through my opera programmes, I discovered I had the text and programme notes for this Turnage piece that ENO performed with From the House of the Dead about ten years back, describing it as a Monodrama. However I don't detect a clear narrative thread, rather it seems to be the reminiscences of an imprisoned woman who killed her violent husband. SO... what does the hosue think? -- Peter cohen 23:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I've just noticed a minor addition by the above user to the Wieland Wagner page and, having looked at his contributions which seem to be mainly about opera singers, I decided to encourage him this way. With luck he might even know somethign about those singers we want articles on.-- Peter cohen 07:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Could someone look at Rossini’s Tancredi. Someone added "For the fictional characters of the series Prison Break, see Sara Tancredi and Frank Tancredi". May I know what is the connection between those last name and the opera? It doesnt look "right" to me. - Jay 14:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Is here, for those who may not be watching the page. Fireplace 20:50, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
This project used to be friendly - that's why it was successful, that's why we all enjoyed being here. In the last month we have seen edit warring over infoboxes, preemptive editing and warring over categories, and this morning I see there is a new edit war breaking out over lists, see List of opera houses.
I think we should make it clear that this is not the way we want it. I propose we put the following on the Project page.
The Opera Project believes in collaboration. Proposals regarding major or controversial issues are made on the Talk Page. They are then discussed by interested editors and contributors. Consensus is reached, if necessary through compromise. Only then are decisions implemented. The project deplores preemptive editing and edit warring.
All comments, criticisms, alternative ideas and rewording most welcome - but it's time to do something about this. Thanks. -- Kleinzach 02:31, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Thank you to everybody. This is not meant to retrospective. 'Preemptive editing' is perhaps an awkward phrase. What I was referring to was editing before discussion. IMO we have been successful when we talked first, defined an objective and all worked together to an agreed standard of accuracy. An excellent example of collaboration was the List of opera librettists. Anyway I hope we can agree a text expressing our values to go on the project page. -- Kleinzach 11:11, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Suggested rephrase:
Edit warring is evil and strongly deplored, so don't. Be bold, and encourage others to be so, but if you encounter opposition discuss matters calmly, either with the user in question on the article's talk page, or here if preferred. Do not continue reverting in a revert-war.
That's in line with policy. There's no reason why we can't have our own abbreviation of it. I find suggestions of any hostility to newcomers rather misplaced. Newcomers are usually welcomed, and on several occasions we've fixed up copy-editing arrangements for those for whom English is not their first language. I do not recognise large portions of the above criticism as being in touch with the record. Moreschi Talk 11:44, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Edit warring is disruptive and deplored, so don't. Be bold, and encourage others to be so, but if you encounter opposition discuss matters calmly, either with the user in question on the article's talk page, or here if preferred. Do not continue reverting in a revert-war. Please remember to be WP:CIVIL at all times, and remember that you may be wrong; do not assume that someone with whom you disagree misunderstands what they are talking about.
I have largely stayed away from the Opera project for the last year because of one editor's unpleasantness. Perhaps if this editor were kinder to everyone, newbies would feel more welcome. I notice that this editor is very civil to some people, but caustic and unpleasant to others. I'm just mentioning my own experience here, since you brought up the subject. -- Ssilvers 13:51, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
We've been diverted. Is there agreement on using Moreschi's version on the project page? Here it is again:
Edit warring is evil and strongly deplored, so don't. Be bold, and encourage others to be so, but if you encounter opposition discuss matters calmly, either with the user in question on the article's talk page, or here if preferred. Do not continue reverting in a revert-war.
But is it adequate as a reference to use when an edit war starts, bearing in mind that aggressive behavoiur almost always precedes the socializing experience here? Here is an alternative:
The Opera Project believes in collaboration and compromise. Edit warring is evil and strongly deplored, so don't do it. Take the initiative and be bold, but if you encounter opposition discuss matters calmly, either with the user in question on the article's talk page, or here if a wider audience is desirable. Do not indulge in a revert-war.
(Hoping we can cut the WTF? OMG! TMD TLA. ARG! to a minimum. The text above also doesn't deal with bots and AWB editing so I am going to make a separate suggestion to cover these later.) -- Kleinzach 03:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I'll be away for a chunk of August so I've been doing some work on the composers agreed for then in advance. Note for those writing Salieri articles: our German friends appear to have excellent coverage of Salieri's operas, as can be seen here, where there are plenty of bluelinks. There's no reason why we can't translate their material for use over here, and when writing articles here we should remember to do the interwiki links (format: [[de:Article title over there/Name of opera]]. Cheers, Moreschi Talk 12:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I wrote about Catherine Malfitano, the existing article was too short with only 2 lines. BTW, do we have any standard format for operatic performers to follow? It would be great if any of you could put up a photo to her article. - Jay 15:29, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I have now created a working list of categories to give to Satyrbot.
The conversation on the bot has got a bit fragmented and it will make life easier for me, now that the list has been created if all the talk happens in this topic. Below are a number of topics for discussion or decisions I've made. Please comment under each. So I have only one place to look.
In a reply to a question above, please note that there is Category:Opera oratorios. This is the obvious place to put all those awkward cases. It belongs both to the operas and oratorios categories. I've included it in the list, but not oratorios.
G&S tagged items will be ignored. I have removed Category:Operas by Arthur Sullivan, and categories with G&S in the name from the list for the bot.
I am including Wagner in the list for the bot. Last time I looked there were only two of us signed up for it. Category:Richard Wagner has been included, but I have pruned the subcategories such as Wagnerites and anti-Wagnerites.
I notice that Category:Operettas by Johann Strauss II appears in the list of operas by composers, but a similar list for Lehar does not. Given the name, I would prefer to position it under Category:Operettas. What do others think?
I agree. Operas by composername will make sense for all the operetta composers (but shouldn't there be a minimum number of operas by each composer with his/her own category?). -- Ssilvers 14:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I have now gone and done the deed and repalced with Operas by JS2
I have explicitly included categories with opera or operatic in their names, e.g. category:Welsh operatic baritones. I have excluded more general categories such as category:sopranos, as they might not all sing opera. I have decided, however, to include category:divas, as they are more or less by definition operatic.
If you create a new category or have done so after 12 on today's datestamp, then please let me know, as I shan't be keeping an eye out for new categories. I have noticed, for example, that not all the opera by year categories exist. If new ones get added and I don't know, then the bot won't know either. Similarly, I shall at some point be creating a category for operas by John Metcalf. I shall have to remind myself to add it to the bot list.
As for the singer categories, should we perhaps have operatic sopranos etc.? If other music projects decide that it is sensible and appropriate to classify e.g. jazz singers by voice range, then without our name on the class, we'll have little argument for keeping them out.-- Peter cohen 11:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Can we please review it before we set things going. In particular, are we going to include ratings? And as we have a bot tagging articles have just created with their own sweat and tears, is it politer to change the opening to "This article falls within the scope of WikiProject:Opera" which strikes me as less aggressive.
I look forward to comments -- Peter cohen 16:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)