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Archive 95 | ← | Archive 100 | Archive 101 | Archive 102 | Archive 103 | Archive 104 | Archive 105 |
I've just added a section on the operas and music-theatre of the Belgian composer
Kris Defoort. I've ended up in knots trying to phrase the sentences for the two operas based on eponymous novels. I'm not (yet?) intending to break these out into separate articles, so the title of the work can only link to the source novel. Here are the two key sentences:
This first has the advantage of clearly telling us the title of the opera, but the disadvantage of no link to the source work. The second is the opposite case. I've now reworked both of these into a dozen different forms, and my brain has melted. What is the 'best practise' for eponymous operas???? If this was straight HTML, I'd convert the phrsae "the novel of the same name" in the first example into a link to the source novel, but I sense that this is not a usual WP tactic. Scarabocchio ( talk) 15:41, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
I have begun to gather material for an article on the Munich Biennale, and I'm struck by the number of opera composers who are coming up without bios on English WP. I'd say around 10 of them (from 15 so far) are worth an entry: Detlev Glanert, Jens Joneleit, Jan Müller-Wieland, Gerd Kühr, Enno Poppe, Mauricio Sotelo, plus Sandeep Bhagwati, Aureliano Cattaneo, Márton Illes .... I'm less acquainted with Philipp Maintz, André Werner and Arnulf Herrmann but they (like most of the others in this list) have won the Ernst von Siemens Composers Prize. I have the publishers and personal websites for most of these people, so I could quite easily create brief articles of basic biographical data, a few sentences paraphrasing the key life details and possibly a list of works, backed up with links to the source websites. The sort of thing I am thinking of is this: José María Sánchez-Verdú.
Is this a worthwhile exercise, or will these be too brief? Scarabocchio ( talk) 13:10, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Any suggestions for April? Voceditenore ( talk) 14:35, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
I think the March OoM which had the non-complex but vital task of providing references for completely unsourced articles has worked well. They will probably all be completed by the end of the month, and some very erroneous information has been corrected in the process for at least one of them, Jocelyn. A couple of them also got cleaned up in the process. Shall I pick another selection of unreferenced operas for the April OoM? Voceditenore ( talk) 14:35, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
Thomas Beecham has been nominated for FAC here. Comments on the article may be made there. Best regards, -- Ssilvers ( talk) 05:50, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
Just thought that some of you might be interested to know that Lists of operas is now, er, listed (under O) in the List of lists of lists. "I'm not making this up, you know!" (© Anna Russell.) -- Guillaume Tell 18:15, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
(My first article ... be gentle! :-) Please cast an eye over User:Scarabocchio/Munich_biennale and see if it's ready for release into the wild. It's typical of this imperfect world, but I have a couple of busy weeks coming up, and I'd like to clear my in-tray a little... Scarabocchio ( talk) 12:39, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
This request to provide a citation for the date and place of the premiere of Don Giovanni leaves me speechless. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 07:16, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Here is a question recently posed on my talk page, which I've taken the liberty of copying (and answering) here, because the discussion is relevant to the wider project. Simon the Likable ( talk) 15:44, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
May I ask why are you changing opera article titles to italics? Has there been some WP-wide decision to do this? Has the Opera project been told about it? -- Klein zach 22:46, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
That's the "why". Answering your second question: yes (see WP:ITALICTITLE, although the policy change appears to be controversial). And thirdly, no, I didn't discuss this at the Opera project until now. I now realise it would have been polite to have done so earlier.
Personally, I'm pro-italics because... well for many of the reasons well rehearsed at the RFC. Fundamentally, I'm interested in packing as much communication into the text we write as possible: if we write "Tosca" readers know we're talking about the character (a thing); when "Tosca", then we're discussing the opera (a work about a thing, or if you prefer, a meta-thing). This thinking applies to article titles as much as to any other text. Also, I like consistency, so the old rule that says "use italics for the names of works of art (but not in article titles)" makes me uncomfortable. I prefer the simple: follow WP:ITALIC for all text.
What should happen now? This needs to be addressed at two levels:
This is a typical WP case where a discussion of multiple ambiguous alternatives with no clear consensus, ended up with one of the alternatives becoming an unambiguous "must" in the Manual of Style anyway. Now that vast numbers of articles have been switched over by editors who were simply following the "revised" MoS in good faith, it will become virtually impossible to shift via an RfC. I highly doubt that any members here would initiate such a time-sink. I also agree with Folantin, that while they are unencyclopedic and undesirable, at least they do not mislead the reader. So faced with the current reality, we could take the stance in the OP article guidelines that we do not recommend italic titles and cite the unclear outcome of the RfC, will not be italicising titles ourselves, but will not revert an italic title once it has been added (another time sink). Or some such formulation. Voceditenore ( talk) 08:19, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
I just want to point out that The New Grove Dictionary of Opera uses italics for specific opera articles, both in the title and in the page headers. Since we follow Grove's capitalization rules, it seems to me perhaps we should also follow their practice regarding italics. -- Robert.Allen ( talk) 20:39, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
I tried this: "{{italic title|force={{#ifeq:{{lc:{{{italic title|}}}}}|force|true}}}}", and it seemed to work. I'm confused by the "force|true" option and wonder whether it would be operative. This was my . We also use Template:Infobox operas for some composers, so that would probably have to be changed as well. And then operas which have no composer template would have to be changed individually. I have no idea how many of those there are or how we could identify them. -- Robert.Allen ( talk) 10:50, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
|italic title=no
is required, similarly to how
Template:Infobox album interacts with
Template:Infobox. --
Michael Bednarek (
talk)
12:36, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Found a soundfile for this. A little over-processed, but pretty good. Article's not very good at all, though. Adam Cuerden ( talk) 00:06, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Credo Reference is offerring 400 free accounts to active Wikipedians, subject to certain criteria. There's also an overspill list for anyone not meeting the criteria. So far there are more accounts available than takers, so the secondary list may be successful too. See Wikipedia:Credo for how to sign up. Voceditenore ( talk) 08:20, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Composer Lee Hoiby died today. His article is in poor shape and a nice tribute to him by the project would be to improve his article's referencing and content. 4meter4 ( talk) 00:05, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Category:Metropolitan Opera performers was just created by User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ). I personally think this is overcategorization and should be deleted. We already have a useful list at the List of performers at the Metropolitan Opera. 4meter4 ( talk) 00:37, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
How come Argentine operas get a look in, but French opera, German opera, Russian opera and Italian opera are apparently missing from all the navigation templates?
Which kind of indirectly leads to my next proposal: Perhaps we should do a drive to improve some of the general articles. Featured Sounds and Featured Pictures have produced a lot of useful illustrative content which could be added, and a good burst of concentrated work may well get some of them to FA, and hence on the main page. If you wanted, I could try to bring Featured sounds in. Adam Cuerden ( talk) 01:19, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
It would be great if we could have an article on critic and opera scholar Peter G. Davis of The New York Times and New York magazine. He's also contributed many articles to The Times of London and Opera News and is the author of the book The American opera singer: the lives and adventures of America's great singers in opera and concert, from 1825 to the present (Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group, 1999). He is currently referenced in more than 40 wikipedia articles in the english wiki; most of which are in our project's scope. 4meter4 ( talk) 14:19, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
This article has been expanded, and is now at reer review, here. Any comments or suggestions would be welcomed. Brianboulton ( talk) 11:25, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Following this note on my talk page, it would be a good idea to keep an eye on this article. I've the left the editor some guidance, but am not sure how much of it will sink in. Voceditenore ( talk) 04:10, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
Any of you able to do something on Rudolf Friml's Katinka? I found a good sound file for it if you do. Adam Cuerden ( talk) 14:56, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
I've been adding a bit to John Fryatt. I see that the Gilbert and Sullivan people have put their banner on the Talk page, but he sang more roles in non-G&S operas for a longer period. I'm highly inclined to add the Opera Project banner as well. And, looking at Category:Gilbert and Sullivan performers, I can't help thinking that, for example, Charles Mackerras, Richard Van Allan, Beverly Sills, Valerie Masterson, and quite a few others who one doesn't immediately associate with nothing but G&S, ought also (IMNSHO) to have our banner too. G&S is theoretically a sub-project of ours, but I'm wondering whether they ought to be cut loose so that both projects can do their own thing. Comments? -- Guillaume Tell 00:50, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
Hi. G-Tell just alerted me to this discussion. I think that each project should have its own banner. That is important to the G&S project in helping us to keep track of the articles that we maintain. I agree that the "no double-bannering" rule, however, caused a few interesting results. As to G-T's list above, I'd put both banners on Fryatt, Masterson and Thomas Lawlor, since their G&S was essential to their careers. I think we can leave ONLY the opera banner on Mackerras, Sills and Van Allen, since the G&S is a relatively small part of their careers. By the way, we have about 450 articles under the G&S banner, and I watch all of them. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 15:32, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Suggestion: Sarah Hibberd's book 'French Grand Opera and the Historical Imagination' cites four five-acters premiered at the Paris Opera but for some reason not normally included in the Grand Opera canon - Bertin's La Esmeralda (1836), Niedermeyer's Stradella (1837), Niedermeyer's Marie Stuart(1844) and Balfe's L'Etoile de Seville........All lacking WP articles, even (suprisingly) Esmeralda.......-- Smerus ( talk) 16:17, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone know much about opera in Spain? The Spanish Ministry of Culture awards two prizes for music every year, generally one for creation (composition) and one for interpretation (work by an individual artist or ensemble, or a musicologist). I've copied the list of award winners to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Scarabocchio/es to prepare an article (basically a translation of the Spanish Wiki page). The problem is that name used within Spain rarely matches the name used outside Spain. We know Victoria de los Ángeles López García as Victoria de los Ángeles, Cristóbal Halffter Jiménez-Encina as Cristóbal Halffter and so on, and so on ... (compounded by differences of Catalan and Castillian spelling differences). Is there anyone in the group who could help out on the above page? Thanks! Scarabocchio ( talk) 23:20, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
I've entered a lot of wiki-linked names in the two articles that I have worked on today ( Giorgio Battistelli and Schwetzingen Festival), and I'm suffering an increasing temptation to set the links to show just the surnames for the DWEMs, the Dead White European Males -- Haydn, Paisiello, Handel, Gluck, Diderot, Pasolini, Shelley, Garcia Marquez, Shakespeare. Is this up to the conscience of the individual Wikipedian, or am I subject to MOS police? Scarabocchio ( talk) 21:48, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
To make referring to Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/Article styles and formats easier, I created the shortcut WP:WPOMOS, and added the appropriate template at the top of that article. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 04:27, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
When did Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera#Operas: capitalisation and diacritics get disendorsed? See a string of edits by Urhixidur ( talk · contribs) regarding La bohème (Puccini & Leoncavallo). -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 15:35, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
For Italian, French, Spanish, and Portuguese opera titles, capitalize only the first word and any proper nouns (names of particular people or places) in that language, e.g. Il diluvio universale, Ugo, conte di Parigi, Le nozze di Figaro, Les mamelles de Tirésias, Les Indes galantes, Les contes d'Hoffmann, La vie parisienne, Margarita la tornera, La vida breve, Florencia en el Amazonas, Veinticinco de agosto, 1983.
For Italian, French, Spanish, and Portuguese opera titles, the aforementioned Dictionaries and Guide capitalize only the first word and any proper nouns [...] Veinticinco de agosto, 1983. Note that this will usually be different from the capitalization rules of the languages in question.
Scarabocchio, in answer to your first question: "Why do YOU think that the topic of title capitalisation has been repeatedly raised by francophones?". The first time it was raised was by someone who spoke neither French nor Italian and argued that La bohème was an English title and should be capitalised as such. The second time (re La reine de Saba) was by an editor claiming to be "fairly fluent" in French and German but a native speaker of neither, who cited an alleged rule that in French "a noun refering to a character is capitalized". Another editor who is a native speaker of German and claims an "intermediate level" of French" and "near-native" level of English joined in that discussion to say that we shouldn't use the CMoS/Grove system because it is "wrong" and we should do what the French Wikipedia does. The third time was by someone who may or may not be a native French speaker, who objected to us using the CMoS system instead of the French system because the CMoS is "wrong". In my view, the main reason people keep bringing it up is that for most other laguages the CMoS system is quite congruent with those used in Italian and German, while it is not with the main French usage, and well, they don't like it and "need to set us straight". No amount of tweaking in the guidelines will forestall this type of editor.
Apart from the fact that only one of the above editors was (possibly) a native French speaker, the arguments haven't always been about French either. Here someone is complaining about how titles are capitalised in Brazilian Portuguese and that we are "wrong" to use the CMoS system. This one was slightly different as it concerned whether nationality nouns are capitalised in Italian sentences, and hence in titles.
In your and Urhixidur's case, you seemed to think that our guidelines and examples purport to describe the title case rules recommended by the Académie française and that this is causing the confusion/inconsistency. Instead they are demonstrating how to format non-English opera titles using the Chicago Manual of Style system. Can you please explain how the current wording of the guideline would lead someone to think otherwise? What do you suggest for a wording which would make this even clearer, apart from adding that the CMoS sytem is not the same as the Académie française system for French titles? We're open to suggestions.
Urhixidur, re Italian capitalisation in Italian language printed matter, I'm a fluent Italian speaker, but that is neither here nor there. Although the Italian standard is to use sentence capitalisation for titles, there is a fair amount of flux in modern Italian re capitalisation in general, and titles in particular, particularly if the title is a very short and very famous. Thus, fluctuation will be found more often with La bohème and La traviata, but rarely with La clemenza di Tito. This is is complicated by the fact that in Italian, the first two are often shortened to a single word, Bohème and Traviata, examples here and here. These vagaries are precisely why we have chosen the CMoS/Grove system for rendering all foreign titles. Voceditenore ( talk) 10:57, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
I can't read all the above and don't speak French, but would like to discuss why the lead of Le temps L'horloge says what Le temps l'horloge is. I created a redirect for now. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 20:17, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
As requested some time ago, I expanded Internationale Maifestspiele Wiesbaden and started the theater (as in German and Commons) Hessisches Staatstheater Wiesbaden, nominated both for the premiere of Lolita (opera) on Saturday, any help is welcome, -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 11:55, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
In particular: the list of conductors lacks people and dates. I would not know how to explain/link State Theatre or Staatstheater. The German articles came without refs, as usual, and the theater is all architecture, no performances, -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 15:01, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
An anon IP changed the premiere date of this opera in List of operas by Rossini from 24 October 1819 to 24 September 1819. I reverted this change twice yesterday, but (s)he has now re-reverted. The opera's article has October (from the Viking Guide), and so has Grove (where the details for the List came from). However, Richard Osborne's Rossini (1986 - I don't have the revised version) has September, so does Casaglia's Almanacco, and I've just discovered that the Oxford Dictionary of Opera has September. So that's 3-2 to September (and Italian Wikipedia has September). Is there a definitive source? -- Guillaume Tell 10:59, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
What's the name of his piece now, Le Temps l'horloge (article, + the strange ') or Le temps l'horloge (publisher, composer's article)? -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 16:11, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 95 | ← | Archive 100 | Archive 101 | Archive 102 | Archive 103 | Archive 104 | Archive 105 |
I've just added a section on the operas and music-theatre of the Belgian composer
Kris Defoort. I've ended up in knots trying to phrase the sentences for the two operas based on eponymous novels. I'm not (yet?) intending to break these out into separate articles, so the title of the work can only link to the source novel. Here are the two key sentences:
This first has the advantage of clearly telling us the title of the opera, but the disadvantage of no link to the source work. The second is the opposite case. I've now reworked both of these into a dozen different forms, and my brain has melted. What is the 'best practise' for eponymous operas???? If this was straight HTML, I'd convert the phrsae "the novel of the same name" in the first example into a link to the source novel, but I sense that this is not a usual WP tactic. Scarabocchio ( talk) 15:41, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
I have begun to gather material for an article on the Munich Biennale, and I'm struck by the number of opera composers who are coming up without bios on English WP. I'd say around 10 of them (from 15 so far) are worth an entry: Detlev Glanert, Jens Joneleit, Jan Müller-Wieland, Gerd Kühr, Enno Poppe, Mauricio Sotelo, plus Sandeep Bhagwati, Aureliano Cattaneo, Márton Illes .... I'm less acquainted with Philipp Maintz, André Werner and Arnulf Herrmann but they (like most of the others in this list) have won the Ernst von Siemens Composers Prize. I have the publishers and personal websites for most of these people, so I could quite easily create brief articles of basic biographical data, a few sentences paraphrasing the key life details and possibly a list of works, backed up with links to the source websites. The sort of thing I am thinking of is this: José María Sánchez-Verdú.
Is this a worthwhile exercise, or will these be too brief? Scarabocchio ( talk) 13:10, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Any suggestions for April? Voceditenore ( talk) 14:35, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
I think the March OoM which had the non-complex but vital task of providing references for completely unsourced articles has worked well. They will probably all be completed by the end of the month, and some very erroneous information has been corrected in the process for at least one of them, Jocelyn. A couple of them also got cleaned up in the process. Shall I pick another selection of unreferenced operas for the April OoM? Voceditenore ( talk) 14:35, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
Thomas Beecham has been nominated for FAC here. Comments on the article may be made there. Best regards, -- Ssilvers ( talk) 05:50, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
Just thought that some of you might be interested to know that Lists of operas is now, er, listed (under O) in the List of lists of lists. "I'm not making this up, you know!" (© Anna Russell.) -- Guillaume Tell 18:15, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
(My first article ... be gentle! :-) Please cast an eye over User:Scarabocchio/Munich_biennale and see if it's ready for release into the wild. It's typical of this imperfect world, but I have a couple of busy weeks coming up, and I'd like to clear my in-tray a little... Scarabocchio ( talk) 12:39, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
This request to provide a citation for the date and place of the premiere of Don Giovanni leaves me speechless. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 07:16, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Here is a question recently posed on my talk page, which I've taken the liberty of copying (and answering) here, because the discussion is relevant to the wider project. Simon the Likable ( talk) 15:44, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
May I ask why are you changing opera article titles to italics? Has there been some WP-wide decision to do this? Has the Opera project been told about it? -- Klein zach 22:46, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
That's the "why". Answering your second question: yes (see WP:ITALICTITLE, although the policy change appears to be controversial). And thirdly, no, I didn't discuss this at the Opera project until now. I now realise it would have been polite to have done so earlier.
Personally, I'm pro-italics because... well for many of the reasons well rehearsed at the RFC. Fundamentally, I'm interested in packing as much communication into the text we write as possible: if we write "Tosca" readers know we're talking about the character (a thing); when "Tosca", then we're discussing the opera (a work about a thing, or if you prefer, a meta-thing). This thinking applies to article titles as much as to any other text. Also, I like consistency, so the old rule that says "use italics for the names of works of art (but not in article titles)" makes me uncomfortable. I prefer the simple: follow WP:ITALIC for all text.
What should happen now? This needs to be addressed at two levels:
This is a typical WP case where a discussion of multiple ambiguous alternatives with no clear consensus, ended up with one of the alternatives becoming an unambiguous "must" in the Manual of Style anyway. Now that vast numbers of articles have been switched over by editors who were simply following the "revised" MoS in good faith, it will become virtually impossible to shift via an RfC. I highly doubt that any members here would initiate such a time-sink. I also agree with Folantin, that while they are unencyclopedic and undesirable, at least they do not mislead the reader. So faced with the current reality, we could take the stance in the OP article guidelines that we do not recommend italic titles and cite the unclear outcome of the RfC, will not be italicising titles ourselves, but will not revert an italic title once it has been added (another time sink). Or some such formulation. Voceditenore ( talk) 08:19, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
I just want to point out that The New Grove Dictionary of Opera uses italics for specific opera articles, both in the title and in the page headers. Since we follow Grove's capitalization rules, it seems to me perhaps we should also follow their practice regarding italics. -- Robert.Allen ( talk) 20:39, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
I tried this: "{{italic title|force={{#ifeq:{{lc:{{{italic title|}}}}}|force|true}}}}", and it seemed to work. I'm confused by the "force|true" option and wonder whether it would be operative. This was my . We also use Template:Infobox operas for some composers, so that would probably have to be changed as well. And then operas which have no composer template would have to be changed individually. I have no idea how many of those there are or how we could identify them. -- Robert.Allen ( talk) 10:50, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
|italic title=no
is required, similarly to how
Template:Infobox album interacts with
Template:Infobox. --
Michael Bednarek (
talk)
12:36, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Found a soundfile for this. A little over-processed, but pretty good. Article's not very good at all, though. Adam Cuerden ( talk) 00:06, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Credo Reference is offerring 400 free accounts to active Wikipedians, subject to certain criteria. There's also an overspill list for anyone not meeting the criteria. So far there are more accounts available than takers, so the secondary list may be successful too. See Wikipedia:Credo for how to sign up. Voceditenore ( talk) 08:20, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Composer Lee Hoiby died today. His article is in poor shape and a nice tribute to him by the project would be to improve his article's referencing and content. 4meter4 ( talk) 00:05, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Category:Metropolitan Opera performers was just created by User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ). I personally think this is overcategorization and should be deleted. We already have a useful list at the List of performers at the Metropolitan Opera. 4meter4 ( talk) 00:37, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
How come Argentine operas get a look in, but French opera, German opera, Russian opera and Italian opera are apparently missing from all the navigation templates?
Which kind of indirectly leads to my next proposal: Perhaps we should do a drive to improve some of the general articles. Featured Sounds and Featured Pictures have produced a lot of useful illustrative content which could be added, and a good burst of concentrated work may well get some of them to FA, and hence on the main page. If you wanted, I could try to bring Featured sounds in. Adam Cuerden ( talk) 01:19, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
It would be great if we could have an article on critic and opera scholar Peter G. Davis of The New York Times and New York magazine. He's also contributed many articles to The Times of London and Opera News and is the author of the book The American opera singer: the lives and adventures of America's great singers in opera and concert, from 1825 to the present (Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group, 1999). He is currently referenced in more than 40 wikipedia articles in the english wiki; most of which are in our project's scope. 4meter4 ( talk) 14:19, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
This article has been expanded, and is now at reer review, here. Any comments or suggestions would be welcomed. Brianboulton ( talk) 11:25, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Following this note on my talk page, it would be a good idea to keep an eye on this article. I've the left the editor some guidance, but am not sure how much of it will sink in. Voceditenore ( talk) 04:10, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
Any of you able to do something on Rudolf Friml's Katinka? I found a good sound file for it if you do. Adam Cuerden ( talk) 14:56, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
I've been adding a bit to John Fryatt. I see that the Gilbert and Sullivan people have put their banner on the Talk page, but he sang more roles in non-G&S operas for a longer period. I'm highly inclined to add the Opera Project banner as well. And, looking at Category:Gilbert and Sullivan performers, I can't help thinking that, for example, Charles Mackerras, Richard Van Allan, Beverly Sills, Valerie Masterson, and quite a few others who one doesn't immediately associate with nothing but G&S, ought also (IMNSHO) to have our banner too. G&S is theoretically a sub-project of ours, but I'm wondering whether they ought to be cut loose so that both projects can do their own thing. Comments? -- Guillaume Tell 00:50, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
Hi. G-Tell just alerted me to this discussion. I think that each project should have its own banner. That is important to the G&S project in helping us to keep track of the articles that we maintain. I agree that the "no double-bannering" rule, however, caused a few interesting results. As to G-T's list above, I'd put both banners on Fryatt, Masterson and Thomas Lawlor, since their G&S was essential to their careers. I think we can leave ONLY the opera banner on Mackerras, Sills and Van Allen, since the G&S is a relatively small part of their careers. By the way, we have about 450 articles under the G&S banner, and I watch all of them. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 15:32, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Suggestion: Sarah Hibberd's book 'French Grand Opera and the Historical Imagination' cites four five-acters premiered at the Paris Opera but for some reason not normally included in the Grand Opera canon - Bertin's La Esmeralda (1836), Niedermeyer's Stradella (1837), Niedermeyer's Marie Stuart(1844) and Balfe's L'Etoile de Seville........All lacking WP articles, even (suprisingly) Esmeralda.......-- Smerus ( talk) 16:17, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone know much about opera in Spain? The Spanish Ministry of Culture awards two prizes for music every year, generally one for creation (composition) and one for interpretation (work by an individual artist or ensemble, or a musicologist). I've copied the list of award winners to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Scarabocchio/es to prepare an article (basically a translation of the Spanish Wiki page). The problem is that name used within Spain rarely matches the name used outside Spain. We know Victoria de los Ángeles López García as Victoria de los Ángeles, Cristóbal Halffter Jiménez-Encina as Cristóbal Halffter and so on, and so on ... (compounded by differences of Catalan and Castillian spelling differences). Is there anyone in the group who could help out on the above page? Thanks! Scarabocchio ( talk) 23:20, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
I've entered a lot of wiki-linked names in the two articles that I have worked on today ( Giorgio Battistelli and Schwetzingen Festival), and I'm suffering an increasing temptation to set the links to show just the surnames for the DWEMs, the Dead White European Males -- Haydn, Paisiello, Handel, Gluck, Diderot, Pasolini, Shelley, Garcia Marquez, Shakespeare. Is this up to the conscience of the individual Wikipedian, or am I subject to MOS police? Scarabocchio ( talk) 21:48, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
To make referring to Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/Article styles and formats easier, I created the shortcut WP:WPOMOS, and added the appropriate template at the top of that article. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 04:27, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
When did Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera#Operas: capitalisation and diacritics get disendorsed? See a string of edits by Urhixidur ( talk · contribs) regarding La bohème (Puccini & Leoncavallo). -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 15:35, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
For Italian, French, Spanish, and Portuguese opera titles, capitalize only the first word and any proper nouns (names of particular people or places) in that language, e.g. Il diluvio universale, Ugo, conte di Parigi, Le nozze di Figaro, Les mamelles de Tirésias, Les Indes galantes, Les contes d'Hoffmann, La vie parisienne, Margarita la tornera, La vida breve, Florencia en el Amazonas, Veinticinco de agosto, 1983.
For Italian, French, Spanish, and Portuguese opera titles, the aforementioned Dictionaries and Guide capitalize only the first word and any proper nouns [...] Veinticinco de agosto, 1983. Note that this will usually be different from the capitalization rules of the languages in question.
Scarabocchio, in answer to your first question: "Why do YOU think that the topic of title capitalisation has been repeatedly raised by francophones?". The first time it was raised was by someone who spoke neither French nor Italian and argued that La bohème was an English title and should be capitalised as such. The second time (re La reine de Saba) was by an editor claiming to be "fairly fluent" in French and German but a native speaker of neither, who cited an alleged rule that in French "a noun refering to a character is capitalized". Another editor who is a native speaker of German and claims an "intermediate level" of French" and "near-native" level of English joined in that discussion to say that we shouldn't use the CMoS/Grove system because it is "wrong" and we should do what the French Wikipedia does. The third time was by someone who may or may not be a native French speaker, who objected to us using the CMoS system instead of the French system because the CMoS is "wrong". In my view, the main reason people keep bringing it up is that for most other laguages the CMoS system is quite congruent with those used in Italian and German, while it is not with the main French usage, and well, they don't like it and "need to set us straight". No amount of tweaking in the guidelines will forestall this type of editor.
Apart from the fact that only one of the above editors was (possibly) a native French speaker, the arguments haven't always been about French either. Here someone is complaining about how titles are capitalised in Brazilian Portuguese and that we are "wrong" to use the CMoS system. This one was slightly different as it concerned whether nationality nouns are capitalised in Italian sentences, and hence in titles.
In your and Urhixidur's case, you seemed to think that our guidelines and examples purport to describe the title case rules recommended by the Académie française and that this is causing the confusion/inconsistency. Instead they are demonstrating how to format non-English opera titles using the Chicago Manual of Style system. Can you please explain how the current wording of the guideline would lead someone to think otherwise? What do you suggest for a wording which would make this even clearer, apart from adding that the CMoS sytem is not the same as the Académie française system for French titles? We're open to suggestions.
Urhixidur, re Italian capitalisation in Italian language printed matter, I'm a fluent Italian speaker, but that is neither here nor there. Although the Italian standard is to use sentence capitalisation for titles, there is a fair amount of flux in modern Italian re capitalisation in general, and titles in particular, particularly if the title is a very short and very famous. Thus, fluctuation will be found more often with La bohème and La traviata, but rarely with La clemenza di Tito. This is is complicated by the fact that in Italian, the first two are often shortened to a single word, Bohème and Traviata, examples here and here. These vagaries are precisely why we have chosen the CMoS/Grove system for rendering all foreign titles. Voceditenore ( talk) 10:57, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
I can't read all the above and don't speak French, but would like to discuss why the lead of Le temps L'horloge says what Le temps l'horloge is. I created a redirect for now. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 20:17, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
As requested some time ago, I expanded Internationale Maifestspiele Wiesbaden and started the theater (as in German and Commons) Hessisches Staatstheater Wiesbaden, nominated both for the premiere of Lolita (opera) on Saturday, any help is welcome, -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 11:55, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
In particular: the list of conductors lacks people and dates. I would not know how to explain/link State Theatre or Staatstheater. The German articles came without refs, as usual, and the theater is all architecture, no performances, -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 15:01, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
An anon IP changed the premiere date of this opera in List of operas by Rossini from 24 October 1819 to 24 September 1819. I reverted this change twice yesterday, but (s)he has now re-reverted. The opera's article has October (from the Viking Guide), and so has Grove (where the details for the List came from). However, Richard Osborne's Rossini (1986 - I don't have the revised version) has September, so does Casaglia's Almanacco, and I've just discovered that the Oxford Dictionary of Opera has September. So that's 3-2 to September (and Italian Wikipedia has September). Is there a definitive source? -- Guillaume Tell 10:59, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
What's the name of his piece now, Le Temps l'horloge (article, + the strange ') or Le temps l'horloge (publisher, composer's article)? -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 16:11, 6 May 2011 (UTC)