This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
I noticed that DrG just changed the first paragraph of the La bohème article to list the title as La bohème. [1] We need to have a discussion over which is the correct form to use for Italian and French operas; having both words capitalized as often seen in America (and other English speaking countries, I would imagine) or just the first word capitalized. A quick glance at Category:Italian-language operas shows that we have both occurring Il rè pastore, Il tabarro, La forza del destino but La Bohème, Le Donne Curiose, Il Trovatore. I don't have an opinion on this yet, but I think we should set one standard. -- BaronLarf 18:31, May 25, 2005 (UTC)
DrG, there is no question that we want to use "correct" capitalization; the issue is determing what that is. The conventions which are used in other languages may not necessarily apply to English. "La bohème" may be correct in Italian, but I have an English-language book here, the Penguin Anthology of Opera, in which it is written "La Bohème". And "Aida" without the diaresis. On the other hand, it has "Il tabarro". I find "La bohème" debatable, and it would have been far better to have a discussion about it before you renamed it in fifty-plus articles.
We have to arrive at a concensus about these things, otherwise Wikipedia would descend into pure chaos. That often takes time, as you can see from the many long dicussions which take place over stylistic issues such as layout, naming conventions, spelling, typography titles, etc, before they eventually get codified in the manual of style. You wrote above: I don't want to stop working while this is debated, so please help me. You must understand that this attitude is incompatible with the way things work here; we are not ~2,000 individual editors working in parallel, this is a collaborative effort, and concensus-building is very time-consuming. If something hasn't been agreed upon yet, work on something else; there is plenty to do here. It is an especially bad idea to go on a rename binge while these things aren't settled.
"I Lombardi alla prima crociata" is the full name, but it is often referred to simply as "I Lombardi", hence it would be appropriate to use that for the article name (shorter is better) and indicate the full name at the top of the page (ie, I Lombardi alla prima crociata is an Italian opera by...). This is quite common on Wikipedia.
If the English name is common, use that, otherwise Les vêpres siciliennes would be fine, with redirects from the unaccented name Les vepres siciliennes (facilitates searching) and the Italian name, I vespri siciliani.
Is there general consensus, then, to go with the following:
-- BaronLarf 19:06, May 26, 2005 (UTC)
There will be a few more changes like the one that just went through for Marriage of Figaro. "Die Zauberflöte" should be next. After the page is moved, check the category indexing. (Marriage of Figaro was still alphabetized using Nozze di Figaro). I'd like to propose an additional idea. In cases like this where the page is titled in English, we use a soft redirect, (for the original title only, hard redirects for all others). This allows indexers to choose which title they what to index on. This way when you choose Category:Italian-language operas, you will see the Italian title, but in Category: Compositions by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart you see the English title. I did this with The Marriage of Figaro only, as a test case. See if you like it. -- DrG 05:20, 2005 May 27 (UTC)
I saw that the article Hary Janos could not be moved to Háry János, and DrG asked that the title should be used without diacritics ( Talk:Hary Janos). He refers to Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera#Operas: original vs English translation, but I'm afraid the policy is mistaken, since it is not at all in accordance with the overall Wikipedia usage. See for example the case of people or geographical names related to non-English-speaking countries. In fact, according to the current practice, all names used in Wikipedia retain their diacritics if these letters are present in the Latin-1 encoding. For example see Category:Cities, towns and villages in Hungary or Category:Hungarian people (with all its subcategories), or see these articles from different languages:
See also the topics
I really don't see why a specific exception should be made in the case of opera titles. Adam78 22:01, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Shouldn't the "Scope" section also mention: Articles on individual operas? Deb 11:23, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Without knowing that there was a WikiProject on operas, I've recently been doing lots of work on operas and opera singers.
After that's all done, then I'll start working on fleshing out some of the articles one by one. Any feedback on this is welcome.-- BaronLarf 03:24, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
The Queen of Spades and Eugene Onegin (opera) could use some work after apparently being updated by a non-native speaker. -- BaronLarf 22:16, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
José Carreras has been marked for cleanup. -- BaronLarf 22:26, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
I just got an obsessive-looking (to an outsider, or just me) list of operas I've never heard of from someone who knows I'm sort of into sailing off on these sorts of musical explorations. Would anyone want the list for ideas for writing something about lesser-known operas? I don't actually know that the works on the list are particularly unknown to folks who've spent some time getting into it, but... it's free information in list form! -- chaizzilla 02:19, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
For documentary purposes, I have copied here the following text from Talk:Royal Opera, London -- Viajero 14:42, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Oliver Chettle, could you explain why you just reverted my merge of this article with Royal Opera House? Having two separate articles complicates things for those of us writing articles on operatic topics, particularly biographies of singers. The only case I found it to be necessary is Paris, where the Opéra National de Paris has been associated with more than one venue (Opera Bastille and Paris Opera). In all the other articles, the company and the house are dealt with together on one page since they are for all practical purposes one. Viajero 10:31, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've found that Porgy and Bess is listed for peer review. If we want to get an opera to attain featured article status, this is probably our best bet; it has a good deal of information already, has a number of interested editors already involved, and it's an English-language opera, which means it should be more readily accessible for English-language editors. Cheers. -- Baron Larf 15:57, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)
This article is now at the crucial WP:FAC stage. Please, state your opinion at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Porgy and Bess/archive1. The only current objections seem to stem around photographs; one person doesn't think there are enough, another believes that the photographs currently on the page stretch the definition of fair use. Any assistance would be appreciated. -- Baron Larf 01:56, July 25, 2005 (UTC)
We did it! Porgy and Bess is now a featured article. -- Baron Larf 01:56, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
I'm planning on starting a whole bunch of new opera articles (and expanding some of the stubs and shorter articles already in existence) when I get home from vacation in a week or two. Most of my plan is simply to work my way through the OperaGlass archive alphabetically, going to Grove and to the collections at the UTexas Fine Arts Library for the content.
I have already familiarized myself with the categorization schemes for opera. Hopefully, I won't be stepping on anyone's toes. Microtonal 29 June 2005 04:14 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music/Notability and Music Guidelines#Vocal profile controversy which may be of interest to participants. -- Baron Larf 20:47, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
What do you think of making an opera "to do" list. That way people would know what things need to be done. Such as opera's that need pages, composers that need catagories... and so on. Further, if we have a to do list, should it go on the project opera page itself, or on this page? Captbaritone 23:56, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
After the success of the collaboration on Porgy and Bess I feel we should choose an article each week/month/period for collaboritive effort, particularly those concerned with individual operas. Most of these pages are just a short paragraph with a synopsis, but if we could take the effort that has gone into Porgy and Bess, we could have a respectable number of featured articles. -- Alexs letterbox 07:38, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
As some of you may have noticed, I have been working on the Carmen page. I have added about five recordings to the Recordings section, but I know that there are more famous ones than those presented. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find them using the Internet, and really need people with better General Knowledge than me. If you know of any more notable recordings (or consider the ones that I have put on the page as not so) then please add it using the format I have given. Thanks. -- Alexs letterbox 06:28, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
I noticed that DrG just changed the first paragraph of the La bohème article to list the title as La bohème. [1] We need to have a discussion over which is the correct form to use for Italian and French operas; having both words capitalized as often seen in America (and other English speaking countries, I would imagine) or just the first word capitalized. A quick glance at Category:Italian-language operas shows that we have both occurring Il rè pastore, Il tabarro, La forza del destino but La Bohème, Le Donne Curiose, Il Trovatore. I don't have an opinion on this yet, but I think we should set one standard. -- BaronLarf 18:31, May 25, 2005 (UTC)
DrG, there is no question that we want to use "correct" capitalization; the issue is determing what that is. The conventions which are used in other languages may not necessarily apply to English. "La bohème" may be correct in Italian, but I have an English-language book here, the Penguin Anthology of Opera, in which it is written "La Bohème". And "Aida" without the diaresis. On the other hand, it has "Il tabarro". I find "La bohème" debatable, and it would have been far better to have a discussion about it before you renamed it in fifty-plus articles.
We have to arrive at a concensus about these things, otherwise Wikipedia would descend into pure chaos. That often takes time, as you can see from the many long dicussions which take place over stylistic issues such as layout, naming conventions, spelling, typography titles, etc, before they eventually get codified in the manual of style. You wrote above: I don't want to stop working while this is debated, so please help me. You must understand that this attitude is incompatible with the way things work here; we are not ~2,000 individual editors working in parallel, this is a collaborative effort, and concensus-building is very time-consuming. If something hasn't been agreed upon yet, work on something else; there is plenty to do here. It is an especially bad idea to go on a rename binge while these things aren't settled.
"I Lombardi alla prima crociata" is the full name, but it is often referred to simply as "I Lombardi", hence it would be appropriate to use that for the article name (shorter is better) and indicate the full name at the top of the page (ie, I Lombardi alla prima crociata is an Italian opera by...). This is quite common on Wikipedia.
If the English name is common, use that, otherwise Les vêpres siciliennes would be fine, with redirects from the unaccented name Les vepres siciliennes (facilitates searching) and the Italian name, I vespri siciliani.
Is there general consensus, then, to go with the following:
-- BaronLarf 19:06, May 26, 2005 (UTC)
There will be a few more changes like the one that just went through for Marriage of Figaro. "Die Zauberflöte" should be next. After the page is moved, check the category indexing. (Marriage of Figaro was still alphabetized using Nozze di Figaro). I'd like to propose an additional idea. In cases like this where the page is titled in English, we use a soft redirect, (for the original title only, hard redirects for all others). This allows indexers to choose which title they what to index on. This way when you choose Category:Italian-language operas, you will see the Italian title, but in Category: Compositions by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart you see the English title. I did this with The Marriage of Figaro only, as a test case. See if you like it. -- DrG 05:20, 2005 May 27 (UTC)
I saw that the article Hary Janos could not be moved to Háry János, and DrG asked that the title should be used without diacritics ( Talk:Hary Janos). He refers to Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera#Operas: original vs English translation, but I'm afraid the policy is mistaken, since it is not at all in accordance with the overall Wikipedia usage. See for example the case of people or geographical names related to non-English-speaking countries. In fact, according to the current practice, all names used in Wikipedia retain their diacritics if these letters are present in the Latin-1 encoding. For example see Category:Cities, towns and villages in Hungary or Category:Hungarian people (with all its subcategories), or see these articles from different languages:
See also the topics
I really don't see why a specific exception should be made in the case of opera titles. Adam78 22:01, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Shouldn't the "Scope" section also mention: Articles on individual operas? Deb 11:23, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Without knowing that there was a WikiProject on operas, I've recently been doing lots of work on operas and opera singers.
After that's all done, then I'll start working on fleshing out some of the articles one by one. Any feedback on this is welcome.-- BaronLarf 03:24, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
The Queen of Spades and Eugene Onegin (opera) could use some work after apparently being updated by a non-native speaker. -- BaronLarf 22:16, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
José Carreras has been marked for cleanup. -- BaronLarf 22:26, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
I just got an obsessive-looking (to an outsider, or just me) list of operas I've never heard of from someone who knows I'm sort of into sailing off on these sorts of musical explorations. Would anyone want the list for ideas for writing something about lesser-known operas? I don't actually know that the works on the list are particularly unknown to folks who've spent some time getting into it, but... it's free information in list form! -- chaizzilla 02:19, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
For documentary purposes, I have copied here the following text from Talk:Royal Opera, London -- Viajero 14:42, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Oliver Chettle, could you explain why you just reverted my merge of this article with Royal Opera House? Having two separate articles complicates things for those of us writing articles on operatic topics, particularly biographies of singers. The only case I found it to be necessary is Paris, where the Opéra National de Paris has been associated with more than one venue (Opera Bastille and Paris Opera). In all the other articles, the company and the house are dealt with together on one page since they are for all practical purposes one. Viajero 10:31, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've found that Porgy and Bess is listed for peer review. If we want to get an opera to attain featured article status, this is probably our best bet; it has a good deal of information already, has a number of interested editors already involved, and it's an English-language opera, which means it should be more readily accessible for English-language editors. Cheers. -- Baron Larf 15:57, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)
This article is now at the crucial WP:FAC stage. Please, state your opinion at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Porgy and Bess/archive1. The only current objections seem to stem around photographs; one person doesn't think there are enough, another believes that the photographs currently on the page stretch the definition of fair use. Any assistance would be appreciated. -- Baron Larf 01:56, July 25, 2005 (UTC)
We did it! Porgy and Bess is now a featured article. -- Baron Larf 01:56, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
I'm planning on starting a whole bunch of new opera articles (and expanding some of the stubs and shorter articles already in existence) when I get home from vacation in a week or two. Most of my plan is simply to work my way through the OperaGlass archive alphabetically, going to Grove and to the collections at the UTexas Fine Arts Library for the content.
I have already familiarized myself with the categorization schemes for opera. Hopefully, I won't be stepping on anyone's toes. Microtonal 29 June 2005 04:14 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music/Notability and Music Guidelines#Vocal profile controversy which may be of interest to participants. -- Baron Larf 20:47, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
What do you think of making an opera "to do" list. That way people would know what things need to be done. Such as opera's that need pages, composers that need catagories... and so on. Further, if we have a to do list, should it go on the project opera page itself, or on this page? Captbaritone 23:56, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
After the success of the collaboration on Porgy and Bess I feel we should choose an article each week/month/period for collaboritive effort, particularly those concerned with individual operas. Most of these pages are just a short paragraph with a synopsis, but if we could take the effort that has gone into Porgy and Bess, we could have a respectable number of featured articles. -- Alexs letterbox 07:38, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
As some of you may have noticed, I have been working on the Carmen page. I have added about five recordings to the Recordings section, but I know that there are more famous ones than those presented. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find them using the Internet, and really need people with better General Knowledge than me. If you know of any more notable recordings (or consider the ones that I have put on the page as not so) then please add it using the format I have given. Thanks. -- Alexs letterbox 06:28, 27 October 2005 (UTC)