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I just removed this from the to-do box, the rationale being that within a week or so, we're going to move it to Infobox Musical. Rather than placing it in a bunch of articles that would eventually have to be fixed, just don't put it on anything for awhile. — Music Maker 06:38, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Allow me to explain a little. Template:Infobox Musical was deleted, and then Template:Infobox Musical 2 moved to Template:Infobox Musical. -- ChoChoPK (球球PK) ( talk | contrib) 23:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
{{Broadway-show| image=[[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg|200px]]| name=Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?| theatre=[[Billy Rose]] Theatre| opening=[[October 13]] [[1962]]| tony nominations=7| tony awards=6| author(s)=[[Edward Albee]]| director=[[Alan Schneider]]| stars=[[Uta Hagen ]]<br> [[Arthur Hill]]<br> [[Melinda Dillon]]<br> [[George Grizzard]]| closing=[[May 16]] [[1964]]| }}
Broadway Show | |
Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? | |
---|---|
Theatre | Billy Rose Theatre |
Opening night | October 13 1962 |
Tony nominations | 7 |
Tony awards | 6 |
Author(s) | Edward Albee |
Director | Alan Schneider |
Leading original cast members |
Uta Hagen Arthur Hill Melinda Dillon George Grizzard |
Closing night | May 16 1964 |
-- ChoChoPK (球球PK) ( talk | contrib) 19:01, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Please check the template sandbox for some updates to {{ Broadway-theatre}}. — Music Maker 08:10, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I must admit that I don't even know what this template is for. Is it an infobox for theatre buildings? I thought theaters were outside the scope of this project? -- Ssilvers 23:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Can you put it on one article so we can see what it looks like there? BTW, an editor listified a lot of information on the various broadway theatres over the past year and also deleted a lot of information about productions at the same time. Take a look at the edit history of a few of them, and I think you'll see what I mean. I'd be interested in your opinion of what he did, and whether you think the information should be restored. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 02:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Again, not sure if anyone cares, but I added a "Previous Names" field, as many theaters have been known by other names. — Music Maker 15:51, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
...has been nominated for deletion. You can weigh in Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Template:Infobox Musical 3. — Music Maker 22:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
A number of images at Wicked (musical) are slated for deletion. The images say that they are "promotional" images. Weren't they released by Disney with permission for people to use them in a non-commercial site like Wikipedia? If we don't provide some explanation soon, they'll all go bye-bye. Does anyone know whether these images can be justified, or whether they really ought to be deleted? -- Ssilvers 22:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Would you kindly try to add a summary of the use rationale to the images? It would be great if we can save these images! Thanks, and best regards, -- Ssilvers 23:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. -- Ssilvers 01:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Everyone, please take a look at the newest edits to our flagship article. Is this bad listifying, or good formatting? I'm on the fence, but maybe I just need some sleep. -- Ssilvers 05:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Crystallina. Thanks for the message, but you did not understand my question. In the past few days, someone has made edits to the early sections of the musical theatre article, adding bulleted lists. I understood that this was not consistent with WP:EMBED. Should we revert? Please take a closer look at the recent edit history. Thanks! -- Ssilvers 06:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Done. -- Ssilvers 13:50, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Can someone please put in the infobox at Guys and Dolls. Thanks! -- Ssilvers 14:16, 27 June 2007 (UTC) (the technophobe)
Thanks! -- Ssilvers 07:23, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
This is the show that I chose out of the 10 trial shows. I have worked pretty hard on it for a week or two, and I have taken it about as far as I can. Can we now peer review it and see how my revisions worked under the new guidelines and what else can be done? Does anyone else have sources that can be added to reference any unreferenced assertions? What is the next step? -- Ssilvers 07:21, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree. It's not even for the original cast album. Thanks. -- Ssilvers 17:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your changes to the intro. I see now what you meant by "three whole tones", but the phrase is ambiguous, and the reader of this phrase might think that the tritone is composed of three separate notes, instead of just two. I think that, actually the word "interval" will be difficult to understand for many readers with no musical education. I tried to clarify further, and I would also suggest deleting the sentence about "common harmonious intervals". I don't think it adds anything to the discussion and is either too complicated for non-musicians or too elementary for musicians. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 01:51, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with deleting the Character list (and character lists in general where they give more information than simply the names of the characters) because it explains things that are awkward to put into a plot summary. I don't agree with the attitude that readers know these characters already. The purpose of the article is to give an introduction about the show to people who know nothing about it, and also people who want to learn more about it. We must satisfy more than one type of reader. Also, you cannot tell from the plot summary which characters sing which songs. A song list noting which characters sing each song would, IMO, add to the usefulness of the article.
Therefore, I think that an important lesson learned so far from this "First 10 articles" exercise is that we should say in the Article structure guidelines that where there is a Character list that describes useful information about the characters that cannot be gleaned from the synopis, that character list should not be deleted. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 01:51, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments, but I must disagree with you, as I explained above. And I do not know of *any* Synopses on Wikipedia that give a complete understanding of which characters sing each number. They may imply the answer, especially for solos, but I think your first assertion above is simply wrong. Anyhow, it is clear that you and I disagree on this point. What do other people have to say? -- Ssilvers 02:43, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually, my opinion is a little different: if the reader needs to know who sings what for any specific song, it'll be in the synopsis. (Otheriwise it's a bad synopsis). Otherwise, there isn't much need for the reader to know the specifics of who sings what song when. They can go out and buy the cd for that if they need to. In articles about films, they don't do scene by scene breakdowns of who's in what scene (a bad parallel I know, but still). I would say that, unless a character listing or song listing adds more than just the connection between the two, it's really unneeded. Just my opinion. :-D -- omtay38 03:22, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree. However, a musical is more complicated than a film in this regard. In a film, there is generally only one cast member for each character. For a musical, there may be many productions, with many different cast lists. So I think we need one character list that lists the names of all the principal characters, and next to it either the name of who played the character in the original cast, or a historical casting table, like we use at the G&S project. The character list can also give vocal ranges for the more musically complex musicals. See, e.g., Iolanthe. Separately, is the question of the Song list or List of musical numbers, which, as SandyGeorgia notes above, should show the name of the song and which characters sing it. What I am saying is that deleting either of these lists removes information from the article that is of historical/encyclopedic interest. I do not believe that the Synopsis section can adequately cover these issues as clearly or in as useful a way for people interested in this information "at a glance". If an article is to be improved to GA or FA status, I think it needs this information. -- Ssilvers 14:10, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I absolutely concur with Broadwaygal - particularly the second point. It seems to me as natural (and helpful) as listing the ingredients in a cookery recipe before going into the details of cooking them. Tim Riley 16:18, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
The collaboration of the month page has yet to receive any nominations. But then again, that's understandable with all the work we've been doing around here. If it dosen't get any by the first, I'll just roll the selection date too next month (when things may have settled down a bit). Cheers! -- omtay38 03:50, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi all, Just stopping by to say I'm disappointed/confused as to why original cast lists are being deleted from some Broadway show articles. Casts are listed for movie and television show articles. And personnel is listed for record albums. Why exclude them from stage events? J. Van Meter 15:00, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Opinions aside, it is the Wikipedia policy not to add "Laundry Lists". If you look at the style guidelines it clearly states not to creat cast lists. Instead to incorporate the cast into the plot section of film, television and stage shows. A list can be placed in the info box. "Laundry Lists" are being deleted as part of Wikipedias drive to clean these up. Sorry that this has not been stressed more to everyone.-- Amadscientist 05:29, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Heyo everybody. So here's what I think (and again, only my personal opinoin). Basicaly: Lists have their place. Cast lists, song lists, character lists, and production lists can be very helpful to the wikipedia reader. Now, allow me to qualify:
In short, here is my proposed action: Have no "ruling" (on the Article Structure page or otherwise) that says lists are bad, delete them. Instead have something that says "Lists are a helpful communication tool if they are not intrusive, or space consuming and add in as much information as possible. Lists are not to be deleted simply because lists are not allowed. No list from an existing article should be deleted unless the "important" (we should define what is "important") will still exist in the list-free article. Likewise, Lists should not be added unless they add as much information as possible to an article without repeating any information or impeding the easy readability of an article." As always, just my two cents. BTW, as much as we sometimes get heated in our discussions in this project, I am very glad about the detail in which we discuss things. I always know that when we do land on something, it was well thought out and received much input. Cheers! -- omtay38 06:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Omtay, as to your suggestion, I think that we need specific guidelines, rather than principles, to guide editors on the three basic types of lists that we are talking about. It is a very finite group of issues, so lets deal with them specifically in our guidelines. I do agree, as a principal, that lists with other information in them are more useful than naked lists.
Hey, guys. Sorry I was away this weekend; my internet has been spotty at best. First, I want to apologize if I ruffled any feathers. I was deleting cast lists because that's what I thought had been decided in the article structure. Please don't make it sound like that's all I was doing -- I've been adding infoboxes to at least four times the number of articles whose cast list I deleted, and doing general cleanup and assessment. Second, if we want to have cast lists of some sort, fine, but I would suggest we use a concrete number or characters like "6 or so". (Well, I guess that's not really concrete....) Or we find some way to define what constitutes a "lead". The thing I don't like about cast lists is that they rarely have any ACTUAL information in them. In some of the ones I deleted, there were thirty names and maybe two bluelinks. In some of the older shows, no one this side of 1949 has even heard of some of those actors. I really don't see the point in including their names -- especially when we link people to ibdb. Also, it would seem to me that a cast list and a character list can be consolidated into one list:
(Yes, I know it wasn't Sam Waterston, but I can't think of the guy's name right now....) One of the things, too, that I think we should discourage is this "replacement cast history" popping up in some of the articles. If a notable actor has taken the role, this can be noted in prose, but a historical account of every person who has played the part is simply useless. — Music Maker 22:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, and that's why I recommend a full list of the original Principal B'way or West End cast (people with significant speaking, singing, or solo dancing roles), supplemented by the people who played the "starring" roles in other major productions, even if not bluelinked, supplemented by pretty much anyone else who is bluelinked (if we decide they're not notable, we should put them up for AfD). Then, if it turns out that someone notable gets a new article later, they can be added. See the new language I put into the Article structure guideline. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 01:32, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree that it's somewhat subjective, but I don't think this needs to be an exact science. My suggestion is that if you are writing an article, you don't have to add the Krupkes of musical theatre to your list, but if another editor decides to add him, I don't think you should delete him. But, if someone adds a character that is clearly chorus/ensemble, then, yes, we should all delete it. There are 1,000 musicals articles, and someday there will be much more than that; but there are only a handful of us. So why argue about stuff at the subjective margins. Since we can agree on the core principles (deleting cast list from the Kalamazoo production; adding info to articles with no synopsis or missing other essential and easily accessed info; columnizing song lists and long character lists; deleting info on amateur/school productions; etc.), it should be easy for us to make the musicals articles *much* more uniform than they are right now and improve many of the stubs to starts and starts to B-class (at the same time, we should try to get a few articles up to GA or even FA - an exercise from which we might learn some interesting things about our guidelines). So, let's agree on what we *can* agree on easily, take care of those important things, and then, if we're all still alive at the end of that, come back to the finer points for debate and a beer. -- Ssilvers 05:25, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
(If this note belongs better on a different Talk page, feel free to move it.) There is at present no article for Michael Mayer (director). There was a single article named "Michael Mayer," but that was an article about a well-known electronica musician; I think most theater and film people were simply wikilinking "Michael Mayer" and assuming it was the man most of us consider the Michael Mayer, without realizing that other arenas have their own "the" Michael Mayer. So I created a disambiguation page for the name (there was a third Michael Mayer who sometimes goes by Mike) and just now finished going back and making the links about the theatrical MM direct to the not-yet-created article. I thought I'd post a message here, as I suspect once people realize that the Tony-winning MM has no article after all, there will be one tout suite. Lawikitejana 11:54, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Why is there a redirect to Stagecraft for a search for Theatrical Production? They are NOT the same thing. Also there should be a page for Stage show as well since not all stage shows are theatrical productions. Come on, we do want a full and comprehensive listing don't we?-- Amadscientist 05:24, 2 July 2007 (UTC)-- Amadscientist 05:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Just a random thought as I go through these articles: I think we should advise against numbering the musical numbers, and, instead, just bulleting them. It's nitpicking, I know, but, as I'm sure we all know, the musical pieces in the score are usually numbered, and, if we're not going to use the numbers from the score (which would create difficulty), we probably should just leave them unnumbered. — Music Maker 00:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
If anyone is looking for articles to create, Michael Gore and Dean Pitchford are both conspicuous redlinks. They're the guys who wrote Fame, Carrie, the screenplay for Footloose and some of the songs, and about a zillion other things. If someone gets to them, great, if not, I can do it when I'm done infoboxing.... — Music Maker 04:55, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Should we list the nominations, too? I think almost every article I've seen lists the nominations and notes the winners. However, after working on Mary Poppins (musical), I don't know how great an idea that is. It was nominated (by my count) for 50 awards, and only won 7, so there's this gargantuan list at the end of the article, with only the errant (WINNER). And the infobox page lists an obscene number of awards that are appropriate for the infobox, which, therefore, would make production-specific awards of these types eligible for entry under this section. The structure says "If this list becomes too long, it may be shortened to the more notable awards," but what does that mean? The more notable award or the less production-specific category? — Music Maker 05:28, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think film versions should be listed as productions in the infobox for the musical. Can we add that to the guidelines? What about the TV recordings of a musical? Shouldn't we limit infobox productions to major stage productions? See, e.g., Carousel (musical) -- Ssilvers 15:21, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
This guy is undoing MusicMaker's edits!: [See User:209.247.22.164 -- Ssilvers 16:07, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
It is clear that the user is a sockpuppet for User:SFTVLGUY2. How do we make a complaint? For background, see the discussion at Talk:New Girl in Town. -- Ssilvers 18:08, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Also thanks to Bibliomaniac15 and others who helped. -- Ssilvers 18:32, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Came across a dupe article of one that was deleted previously for Menopause The Musical. You can weigh in here. — Music Maker 22:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi, have just joined this project after lurking for awhile. I have been rating a load of articles this afternoon and hope ive been doing alright. I have tried to stick to guidelines the best I can.
Found a problem with the "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang" page. It linked to the book which had a small bit of info on the musical. I deleted the project tag on this page and put it into the article about the musical version. Not sure if this was right so just checking, and the book page will probs need to be changed.
Also added the "List" tag to all of the list articles. Was wondering whether the tony award specific awards should also go in this catagory as there is not much to talk about individual awards rather than who has won them right?
Also the page "Zuleika" (Yeah, trust me to browse the very last page :P) needs disambiguating or more information on it but I thought id leave that to someone else as id probably mess it up.
Hope you guys can keep me right but been having fun so far :D. -- Mark E 16:43, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
About the tony award pages I just mean should they be given a "List" rating rather than a "Start" rating, because there is only limited information that can be given for them. Mark E 18:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
DONE!!!!! Rated all articles.. Phew that was interesting. Mark E 15:20, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Can we add Reality Musical Tv Shows to the project. I mean programmes like How Do You Solve a Problem Like Maria?. Any thoughts? Mark E 10:01, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Thats what im thinking Omtay38, the more articles on Musical Theatre the better! Due to that tv show a production sold out months in advance is now playing at the London Palladium. With the Any Dream will do programme it was a highly watched programme and created alot of buzz. Mark E 15:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
While those shows turn my stomach and make me want to vom on anything within reach, I think that, unfortunately, they fall under our scope. — Music Maker 20:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted to let everyone know that I just revised the stub tag slightly. It said "See Wikiproject Musical Theatre," and I'm not sure why. I wouldn't want to imply that someone would have to check in with us before they expand a stub, so I took it out. If anyone disagrees, they can revert. — Music Maker 22:26, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I thought we deserved one so I got it up and running. I'm still doing a few tweaks here and there, but feel free to take a look. All comments are well apprecieated. I plan on adding it to the active list of portals before the end of the night. Cheers! -- omtay 38 01:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
A load of information has been added to the Avenue Q article (I follow it closely as it is one of my fave shows) and its about a Manila production, Tel Aviv production, Licensing and school editions etc and it has messed up the article and now has TWENTY sections to it. Anyone want to attempt to clean it up? I would but im still only just starting to get used to wikipedia editing and don't want to mess it up lol. Mark E 11:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
That looks a hell of alot better! Good Work!
Have went through most of the "B" rated articles and found some I thought could (with a bit of work) become Good article status. What do you think? It's about time we had another "Good" musical article.
Yeah I see what you mean now about the musical theatre article, i never gave it much thought and just thought it looked very good and had alot of relevant information. I have alot left to learn about wikipedia, and since I know nothing about Bernadette Peters except that she was in Into the Woods at one point i don't think I could update the article, but I must say it is very well written. The Musical theatre project as a whole seems to be very unrepresented in terms of Good/FA status, so even trying to get some more can't be a bad thing. Mark E 21:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
She certainly is within the scope of this project. I added the project tag to her talk page. Does anyone know how to do the nifty thing that combines all the project tags into a smaller multi-tag? -- Ssilvers 05:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Crystallina, do you know of any other musical theatre actors whose articles are missing the project tag? Thanks! -- Ssilvers 05:43, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Rick Lyon, Natalie Venetia Belcon, Jordan Gelber, Ann Harada and Jennifer Barnhart were all in the original cast of avenue q. Most of them have worked in other musical theatre, Ann Harada was in the original seussical cast but dunno what others were in, and i think Jennifer Barnhart is still performing in avenue q on broadway. None of them are tagged, and this is the same for musical theatre actors who have performed in other shows too, and some have really good articles. Since the project covers some very minor musicals that have tiny articles should we try to add ALL notable (notable enough to have a wikipedia page) to the project? Mark E 08:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Optional :) How many tags can the poor article support: Film project, Bio project, etc., etc. I'd say that if the person is really a TV or film star just dabbling in MT, like Joey Lawrence, then no. But both Hyde Pierce and NPH have spent a lot of time on stage in the past few years, so sure, tag 'em if you want. And people whose fame is tied to their MT work, like Bernadette Peters, *definitely*. -- Ssilvers 16:07, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Hey kids -- Having worked with this infobox more or less nonstop for the past week or two, I think there's something we should change. There's no way to make the Drama Desk awards fit on their own line, and it's been bothering me. I could just change the name of the award from "outstanding" to "best", but, frankly, I can't bring myself to do it. I've been piping "Drama Desk Award" to simply "Drama Desk", but the award for Outstanding New Musical (even when "New" is left out) still takes up two lines. I was thinking that if we put the word "Awards" centered on its own line, and allowed the awards to center as well beneath it, those award names would fit and it would still look okay. I'll try to work on a mock-up when I'm less half-asleep (or more half-awake for you optimists out there....). If anyone has any other ideas (like fiddling with the current code), I'm certainly open to them. — Music Maker 07:56, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
If anyone has a recording of Sweet Smell of Success (musical), could you go over to that article and see if the synopsis is lifted directly from the liner notes? It seems a little spurious.... — Music Maker 17:05, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
If you're looking for untagged musical theatre actors, Category:American musical theatre actors is a great place to start. Crystallina 02:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
If you do redirect song titles to the show (I don't know if that's a good idea), make sure they are not bluelinked in the songlist. -- Ssilvers 18:52, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I didn't say they were a bad I idea. I said I didn't know. My main point, is that if you do redirect song titles to the show, make sure they are not bluelinked in the songlist. -- Ssilvers 20:47, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I just removed this from the to-do box, the rationale being that within a week or so, we're going to move it to Infobox Musical. Rather than placing it in a bunch of articles that would eventually have to be fixed, just don't put it on anything for awhile. — Music Maker 06:38, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Allow me to explain a little. Template:Infobox Musical was deleted, and then Template:Infobox Musical 2 moved to Template:Infobox Musical. -- ChoChoPK (球球PK) ( talk | contrib) 23:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
{{Broadway-show| image=[[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg|200px]]| name=Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?| theatre=[[Billy Rose]] Theatre| opening=[[October 13]] [[1962]]| tony nominations=7| tony awards=6| author(s)=[[Edward Albee]]| director=[[Alan Schneider]]| stars=[[Uta Hagen ]]<br> [[Arthur Hill]]<br> [[Melinda Dillon]]<br> [[George Grizzard]]| closing=[[May 16]] [[1964]]| }}
Broadway Show | |
Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? | |
---|---|
Theatre | Billy Rose Theatre |
Opening night | October 13 1962 |
Tony nominations | 7 |
Tony awards | 6 |
Author(s) | Edward Albee |
Director | Alan Schneider |
Leading original cast members |
Uta Hagen Arthur Hill Melinda Dillon George Grizzard |
Closing night | May 16 1964 |
-- ChoChoPK (球球PK) ( talk | contrib) 19:01, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Please check the template sandbox for some updates to {{ Broadway-theatre}}. — Music Maker 08:10, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I must admit that I don't even know what this template is for. Is it an infobox for theatre buildings? I thought theaters were outside the scope of this project? -- Ssilvers 23:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Can you put it on one article so we can see what it looks like there? BTW, an editor listified a lot of information on the various broadway theatres over the past year and also deleted a lot of information about productions at the same time. Take a look at the edit history of a few of them, and I think you'll see what I mean. I'd be interested in your opinion of what he did, and whether you think the information should be restored. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 02:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Again, not sure if anyone cares, but I added a "Previous Names" field, as many theaters have been known by other names. — Music Maker 15:51, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
...has been nominated for deletion. You can weigh in Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Template:Infobox Musical 3. — Music Maker 22:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
A number of images at Wicked (musical) are slated for deletion. The images say that they are "promotional" images. Weren't they released by Disney with permission for people to use them in a non-commercial site like Wikipedia? If we don't provide some explanation soon, they'll all go bye-bye. Does anyone know whether these images can be justified, or whether they really ought to be deleted? -- Ssilvers 22:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Would you kindly try to add a summary of the use rationale to the images? It would be great if we can save these images! Thanks, and best regards, -- Ssilvers 23:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. -- Ssilvers 01:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Everyone, please take a look at the newest edits to our flagship article. Is this bad listifying, or good formatting? I'm on the fence, but maybe I just need some sleep. -- Ssilvers 05:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Crystallina. Thanks for the message, but you did not understand my question. In the past few days, someone has made edits to the early sections of the musical theatre article, adding bulleted lists. I understood that this was not consistent with WP:EMBED. Should we revert? Please take a closer look at the recent edit history. Thanks! -- Ssilvers 06:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Done. -- Ssilvers 13:50, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Can someone please put in the infobox at Guys and Dolls. Thanks! -- Ssilvers 14:16, 27 June 2007 (UTC) (the technophobe)
Thanks! -- Ssilvers 07:23, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
This is the show that I chose out of the 10 trial shows. I have worked pretty hard on it for a week or two, and I have taken it about as far as I can. Can we now peer review it and see how my revisions worked under the new guidelines and what else can be done? Does anyone else have sources that can be added to reference any unreferenced assertions? What is the next step? -- Ssilvers 07:21, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree. It's not even for the original cast album. Thanks. -- Ssilvers 17:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your changes to the intro. I see now what you meant by "three whole tones", but the phrase is ambiguous, and the reader of this phrase might think that the tritone is composed of three separate notes, instead of just two. I think that, actually the word "interval" will be difficult to understand for many readers with no musical education. I tried to clarify further, and I would also suggest deleting the sentence about "common harmonious intervals". I don't think it adds anything to the discussion and is either too complicated for non-musicians or too elementary for musicians. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 01:51, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with deleting the Character list (and character lists in general where they give more information than simply the names of the characters) because it explains things that are awkward to put into a plot summary. I don't agree with the attitude that readers know these characters already. The purpose of the article is to give an introduction about the show to people who know nothing about it, and also people who want to learn more about it. We must satisfy more than one type of reader. Also, you cannot tell from the plot summary which characters sing which songs. A song list noting which characters sing each song would, IMO, add to the usefulness of the article.
Therefore, I think that an important lesson learned so far from this "First 10 articles" exercise is that we should say in the Article structure guidelines that where there is a Character list that describes useful information about the characters that cannot be gleaned from the synopis, that character list should not be deleted. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 01:51, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments, but I must disagree with you, as I explained above. And I do not know of *any* Synopses on Wikipedia that give a complete understanding of which characters sing each number. They may imply the answer, especially for solos, but I think your first assertion above is simply wrong. Anyhow, it is clear that you and I disagree on this point. What do other people have to say? -- Ssilvers 02:43, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually, my opinion is a little different: if the reader needs to know who sings what for any specific song, it'll be in the synopsis. (Otheriwise it's a bad synopsis). Otherwise, there isn't much need for the reader to know the specifics of who sings what song when. They can go out and buy the cd for that if they need to. In articles about films, they don't do scene by scene breakdowns of who's in what scene (a bad parallel I know, but still). I would say that, unless a character listing or song listing adds more than just the connection between the two, it's really unneeded. Just my opinion. :-D -- omtay38 03:22, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree. However, a musical is more complicated than a film in this regard. In a film, there is generally only one cast member for each character. For a musical, there may be many productions, with many different cast lists. So I think we need one character list that lists the names of all the principal characters, and next to it either the name of who played the character in the original cast, or a historical casting table, like we use at the G&S project. The character list can also give vocal ranges for the more musically complex musicals. See, e.g., Iolanthe. Separately, is the question of the Song list or List of musical numbers, which, as SandyGeorgia notes above, should show the name of the song and which characters sing it. What I am saying is that deleting either of these lists removes information from the article that is of historical/encyclopedic interest. I do not believe that the Synopsis section can adequately cover these issues as clearly or in as useful a way for people interested in this information "at a glance". If an article is to be improved to GA or FA status, I think it needs this information. -- Ssilvers 14:10, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I absolutely concur with Broadwaygal - particularly the second point. It seems to me as natural (and helpful) as listing the ingredients in a cookery recipe before going into the details of cooking them. Tim Riley 16:18, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
The collaboration of the month page has yet to receive any nominations. But then again, that's understandable with all the work we've been doing around here. If it dosen't get any by the first, I'll just roll the selection date too next month (when things may have settled down a bit). Cheers! -- omtay38 03:50, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi all, Just stopping by to say I'm disappointed/confused as to why original cast lists are being deleted from some Broadway show articles. Casts are listed for movie and television show articles. And personnel is listed for record albums. Why exclude them from stage events? J. Van Meter 15:00, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Opinions aside, it is the Wikipedia policy not to add "Laundry Lists". If you look at the style guidelines it clearly states not to creat cast lists. Instead to incorporate the cast into the plot section of film, television and stage shows. A list can be placed in the info box. "Laundry Lists" are being deleted as part of Wikipedias drive to clean these up. Sorry that this has not been stressed more to everyone.-- Amadscientist 05:29, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Heyo everybody. So here's what I think (and again, only my personal opinoin). Basicaly: Lists have their place. Cast lists, song lists, character lists, and production lists can be very helpful to the wikipedia reader. Now, allow me to qualify:
In short, here is my proposed action: Have no "ruling" (on the Article Structure page or otherwise) that says lists are bad, delete them. Instead have something that says "Lists are a helpful communication tool if they are not intrusive, or space consuming and add in as much information as possible. Lists are not to be deleted simply because lists are not allowed. No list from an existing article should be deleted unless the "important" (we should define what is "important") will still exist in the list-free article. Likewise, Lists should not be added unless they add as much information as possible to an article without repeating any information or impeding the easy readability of an article." As always, just my two cents. BTW, as much as we sometimes get heated in our discussions in this project, I am very glad about the detail in which we discuss things. I always know that when we do land on something, it was well thought out and received much input. Cheers! -- omtay38 06:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Omtay, as to your suggestion, I think that we need specific guidelines, rather than principles, to guide editors on the three basic types of lists that we are talking about. It is a very finite group of issues, so lets deal with them specifically in our guidelines. I do agree, as a principal, that lists with other information in them are more useful than naked lists.
Hey, guys. Sorry I was away this weekend; my internet has been spotty at best. First, I want to apologize if I ruffled any feathers. I was deleting cast lists because that's what I thought had been decided in the article structure. Please don't make it sound like that's all I was doing -- I've been adding infoboxes to at least four times the number of articles whose cast list I deleted, and doing general cleanup and assessment. Second, if we want to have cast lists of some sort, fine, but I would suggest we use a concrete number or characters like "6 or so". (Well, I guess that's not really concrete....) Or we find some way to define what constitutes a "lead". The thing I don't like about cast lists is that they rarely have any ACTUAL information in them. In some of the ones I deleted, there were thirty names and maybe two bluelinks. In some of the older shows, no one this side of 1949 has even heard of some of those actors. I really don't see the point in including their names -- especially when we link people to ibdb. Also, it would seem to me that a cast list and a character list can be consolidated into one list:
(Yes, I know it wasn't Sam Waterston, but I can't think of the guy's name right now....) One of the things, too, that I think we should discourage is this "replacement cast history" popping up in some of the articles. If a notable actor has taken the role, this can be noted in prose, but a historical account of every person who has played the part is simply useless. — Music Maker 22:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, and that's why I recommend a full list of the original Principal B'way or West End cast (people with significant speaking, singing, or solo dancing roles), supplemented by the people who played the "starring" roles in other major productions, even if not bluelinked, supplemented by pretty much anyone else who is bluelinked (if we decide they're not notable, we should put them up for AfD). Then, if it turns out that someone notable gets a new article later, they can be added. See the new language I put into the Article structure guideline. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 01:32, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree that it's somewhat subjective, but I don't think this needs to be an exact science. My suggestion is that if you are writing an article, you don't have to add the Krupkes of musical theatre to your list, but if another editor decides to add him, I don't think you should delete him. But, if someone adds a character that is clearly chorus/ensemble, then, yes, we should all delete it. There are 1,000 musicals articles, and someday there will be much more than that; but there are only a handful of us. So why argue about stuff at the subjective margins. Since we can agree on the core principles (deleting cast list from the Kalamazoo production; adding info to articles with no synopsis or missing other essential and easily accessed info; columnizing song lists and long character lists; deleting info on amateur/school productions; etc.), it should be easy for us to make the musicals articles *much* more uniform than they are right now and improve many of the stubs to starts and starts to B-class (at the same time, we should try to get a few articles up to GA or even FA - an exercise from which we might learn some interesting things about our guidelines). So, let's agree on what we *can* agree on easily, take care of those important things, and then, if we're all still alive at the end of that, come back to the finer points for debate and a beer. -- Ssilvers 05:25, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
(If this note belongs better on a different Talk page, feel free to move it.) There is at present no article for Michael Mayer (director). There was a single article named "Michael Mayer," but that was an article about a well-known electronica musician; I think most theater and film people were simply wikilinking "Michael Mayer" and assuming it was the man most of us consider the Michael Mayer, without realizing that other arenas have their own "the" Michael Mayer. So I created a disambiguation page for the name (there was a third Michael Mayer who sometimes goes by Mike) and just now finished going back and making the links about the theatrical MM direct to the not-yet-created article. I thought I'd post a message here, as I suspect once people realize that the Tony-winning MM has no article after all, there will be one tout suite. Lawikitejana 11:54, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Why is there a redirect to Stagecraft for a search for Theatrical Production? They are NOT the same thing. Also there should be a page for Stage show as well since not all stage shows are theatrical productions. Come on, we do want a full and comprehensive listing don't we?-- Amadscientist 05:24, 2 July 2007 (UTC)-- Amadscientist 05:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Just a random thought as I go through these articles: I think we should advise against numbering the musical numbers, and, instead, just bulleting them. It's nitpicking, I know, but, as I'm sure we all know, the musical pieces in the score are usually numbered, and, if we're not going to use the numbers from the score (which would create difficulty), we probably should just leave them unnumbered. — Music Maker 00:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
If anyone is looking for articles to create, Michael Gore and Dean Pitchford are both conspicuous redlinks. They're the guys who wrote Fame, Carrie, the screenplay for Footloose and some of the songs, and about a zillion other things. If someone gets to them, great, if not, I can do it when I'm done infoboxing.... — Music Maker 04:55, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Should we list the nominations, too? I think almost every article I've seen lists the nominations and notes the winners. However, after working on Mary Poppins (musical), I don't know how great an idea that is. It was nominated (by my count) for 50 awards, and only won 7, so there's this gargantuan list at the end of the article, with only the errant (WINNER). And the infobox page lists an obscene number of awards that are appropriate for the infobox, which, therefore, would make production-specific awards of these types eligible for entry under this section. The structure says "If this list becomes too long, it may be shortened to the more notable awards," but what does that mean? The more notable award or the less production-specific category? — Music Maker 05:28, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think film versions should be listed as productions in the infobox for the musical. Can we add that to the guidelines? What about the TV recordings of a musical? Shouldn't we limit infobox productions to major stage productions? See, e.g., Carousel (musical) -- Ssilvers 15:21, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
This guy is undoing MusicMaker's edits!: [See User:209.247.22.164 -- Ssilvers 16:07, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
It is clear that the user is a sockpuppet for User:SFTVLGUY2. How do we make a complaint? For background, see the discussion at Talk:New Girl in Town. -- Ssilvers 18:08, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Also thanks to Bibliomaniac15 and others who helped. -- Ssilvers 18:32, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Came across a dupe article of one that was deleted previously for Menopause The Musical. You can weigh in here. — Music Maker 22:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi, have just joined this project after lurking for awhile. I have been rating a load of articles this afternoon and hope ive been doing alright. I have tried to stick to guidelines the best I can.
Found a problem with the "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang" page. It linked to the book which had a small bit of info on the musical. I deleted the project tag on this page and put it into the article about the musical version. Not sure if this was right so just checking, and the book page will probs need to be changed.
Also added the "List" tag to all of the list articles. Was wondering whether the tony award specific awards should also go in this catagory as there is not much to talk about individual awards rather than who has won them right?
Also the page "Zuleika" (Yeah, trust me to browse the very last page :P) needs disambiguating or more information on it but I thought id leave that to someone else as id probably mess it up.
Hope you guys can keep me right but been having fun so far :D. -- Mark E 16:43, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
About the tony award pages I just mean should they be given a "List" rating rather than a "Start" rating, because there is only limited information that can be given for them. Mark E 18:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
DONE!!!!! Rated all articles.. Phew that was interesting. Mark E 15:20, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Can we add Reality Musical Tv Shows to the project. I mean programmes like How Do You Solve a Problem Like Maria?. Any thoughts? Mark E 10:01, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Thats what im thinking Omtay38, the more articles on Musical Theatre the better! Due to that tv show a production sold out months in advance is now playing at the London Palladium. With the Any Dream will do programme it was a highly watched programme and created alot of buzz. Mark E 15:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
While those shows turn my stomach and make me want to vom on anything within reach, I think that, unfortunately, they fall under our scope. — Music Maker 20:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted to let everyone know that I just revised the stub tag slightly. It said "See Wikiproject Musical Theatre," and I'm not sure why. I wouldn't want to imply that someone would have to check in with us before they expand a stub, so I took it out. If anyone disagrees, they can revert. — Music Maker 22:26, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I thought we deserved one so I got it up and running. I'm still doing a few tweaks here and there, but feel free to take a look. All comments are well apprecieated. I plan on adding it to the active list of portals before the end of the night. Cheers! -- omtay 38 01:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
A load of information has been added to the Avenue Q article (I follow it closely as it is one of my fave shows) and its about a Manila production, Tel Aviv production, Licensing and school editions etc and it has messed up the article and now has TWENTY sections to it. Anyone want to attempt to clean it up? I would but im still only just starting to get used to wikipedia editing and don't want to mess it up lol. Mark E 11:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
That looks a hell of alot better! Good Work!
Have went through most of the "B" rated articles and found some I thought could (with a bit of work) become Good article status. What do you think? It's about time we had another "Good" musical article.
Yeah I see what you mean now about the musical theatre article, i never gave it much thought and just thought it looked very good and had alot of relevant information. I have alot left to learn about wikipedia, and since I know nothing about Bernadette Peters except that she was in Into the Woods at one point i don't think I could update the article, but I must say it is very well written. The Musical theatre project as a whole seems to be very unrepresented in terms of Good/FA status, so even trying to get some more can't be a bad thing. Mark E 21:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
She certainly is within the scope of this project. I added the project tag to her talk page. Does anyone know how to do the nifty thing that combines all the project tags into a smaller multi-tag? -- Ssilvers 05:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Crystallina, do you know of any other musical theatre actors whose articles are missing the project tag? Thanks! -- Ssilvers 05:43, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Rick Lyon, Natalie Venetia Belcon, Jordan Gelber, Ann Harada and Jennifer Barnhart were all in the original cast of avenue q. Most of them have worked in other musical theatre, Ann Harada was in the original seussical cast but dunno what others were in, and i think Jennifer Barnhart is still performing in avenue q on broadway. None of them are tagged, and this is the same for musical theatre actors who have performed in other shows too, and some have really good articles. Since the project covers some very minor musicals that have tiny articles should we try to add ALL notable (notable enough to have a wikipedia page) to the project? Mark E 08:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Optional :) How many tags can the poor article support: Film project, Bio project, etc., etc. I'd say that if the person is really a TV or film star just dabbling in MT, like Joey Lawrence, then no. But both Hyde Pierce and NPH have spent a lot of time on stage in the past few years, so sure, tag 'em if you want. And people whose fame is tied to their MT work, like Bernadette Peters, *definitely*. -- Ssilvers 16:07, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Hey kids -- Having worked with this infobox more or less nonstop for the past week or two, I think there's something we should change. There's no way to make the Drama Desk awards fit on their own line, and it's been bothering me. I could just change the name of the award from "outstanding" to "best", but, frankly, I can't bring myself to do it. I've been piping "Drama Desk Award" to simply "Drama Desk", but the award for Outstanding New Musical (even when "New" is left out) still takes up two lines. I was thinking that if we put the word "Awards" centered on its own line, and allowed the awards to center as well beneath it, those award names would fit and it would still look okay. I'll try to work on a mock-up when I'm less half-asleep (or more half-awake for you optimists out there....). If anyone has any other ideas (like fiddling with the current code), I'm certainly open to them. — Music Maker 07:56, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
If anyone has a recording of Sweet Smell of Success (musical), could you go over to that article and see if the synopsis is lifted directly from the liner notes? It seems a little spurious.... — Music Maker 17:05, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
If you're looking for untagged musical theatre actors, Category:American musical theatre actors is a great place to start. Crystallina 02:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
If you do redirect song titles to the show (I don't know if that's a good idea), make sure they are not bluelinked in the songlist. -- Ssilvers 18:52, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I didn't say they were a bad I idea. I said I didn't know. My main point, is that if you do redirect song titles to the show, make sure they are not bluelinked in the songlist. -- Ssilvers 20:47, 14 July 2007 (UTC)