![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
Rondane National Park has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. -- RelHistBuff 16:04, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Back in Sep 2006, RedWolf put in a guideline that mountain photo captions should have the month and year. I hadn't noticed this until Justin.Johnsen started to implement this guidance.
Shall we discuss? I'm not sure if this is a good idea: it's certainly generally not implemented. Comments? hike395 07:01, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I was checking out the Sierra Nevada in Google Earth, and noticed that many of the major peaks didn't link to their Wikipedia articles. I thought I remembered some of the same peaks working not long ago.
It looks like pages created with an old version of the infobox template no longer feed into Google Earth. But those with the current template create working links. The difference seems to be the coordinate template; the current version {{coord}} with the display=inline,title tag works. Older coordinate templates ({{coor dms}}, {{coor ds}}, etc) do not. I've updated most of the Sierra Nevada articles, and a few Los Angeles are mountains. -- Justin 14:30, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Should we be using {{ convert}} or {{ unit ft}} in our infobox? I like the latter, because it is somewhat easier to use. Perhaps we should allow both? hike395 06:07, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I notice that on many Italian wiki pages for the Alps they have put a map below the infobox, eg http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%A4schhorn. This seems pretty useful. Anyone know whether it would be possible to put these below - or in - our template? Cheers. Ericoides 09:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Has anyone else noticed that the little globe icon that takes a reader to an interactive map causes bad line breaks in many instances of Infobox Mountain? Can this be fixed somehow? Ideas? hike395 21:49, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Right now the lists parameter in the infobox links to Hill lists in the British Isles (e.g. see Mount Whitney). I assume this was implemented by our mates at WP:British and Irish hills. However this would be useful as a universal category for all of WP:Mountains, as evidenced by Hike395's using it for the SPS Emblem Peaks. Your thoughts? -- Justin 14:46, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree that not all mountain lists are peak-bagging lists. This is a general encyclopedia, not specifically a reference for hikers/climbers/peak-baggers. I agree with hike395 that it's important to adhere to Wikipedia's notability policy on mountain lists; assessing the notability of lists is a long-term project. -- Spireguy 14:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I want to bring up a related issue that has been bothering me for a while. User:Buaidh has been putting in a lot of good work on creating various mountain lists, such as Mountain peaks of North America and Mountain peaks of the Rocky Mountains, among others. However I'm concerned about one of the statistics that Buaidh includes in the tables, namely the product of Topographic prominence and elevation, which Buaidh refers to as "summit eminence." In my opinion, both the inclusion of this statistic and the term "summit eminence" are original research. Note that WP:NOR excludes material if "it defines new terms" or if "it introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor." The former covers the term "eminence" and the latter covers the concept itself and its inclusion in the tables, which implies an importance for the particular combination prom*elev which is not justified by any reliable source.
I've noted to Buaidh that I personally like ranking mountains by prom*elev, but that doesn't matter, since it isn't done in any source that I know of. Rather than being bold and deleting much of the info in Buaidh's tables, which I thought would be rather rude, I wanted to get some more input from this group on the issue. So it would be great if people took a look at the relevant lists and gave their opinion. Thanks -- Spireguy 14:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Are seamounts part of this project? Black Tusk 13:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
{{ Infobox Mountain}} | Name = | Photo = | Caption = | Elevation = | Location = | Range = | Prominence = | Coordinates = | Topographic map = | Type = | Volcanic_Arc/Belt= | Age = | Last eruption = | First ascent = | Easiest route = | Grid_ref_UK = | Grid_ref_Ireland = | Listing = | Translation = | Language = | Pronunciation = }}
{{ Outlying Island}} |name = |map = |flag = |locate = |locale = |claimed = |island_type = |discovered = |claimed_by = |discovered_by = |area = |population = |transportation = |major_settlements = |island_group = |uses = |additional_claims = |location = |projection = |FIPS = |ccTLD = }}
Okay, I did a version 1.0: {{
Infobox Seamount}}. What need changing? (The color, I suppose.)
—wwoods
07:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
By the way, any thoughts on making the 'Depth' figures positive or negative? No real chance of misunderstanding either way, but consistency would be a good thing.
—wwoods
22:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Would anyone here care to give this article a rating? Cheers! Murderbike 07:46, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I have changed one of the pictures on Mount Everest from a jpeg to an imagemap (you will see the difference when you move your cursor overit - its the one taken from the ISStation). Obviously I think this is an improvement and plan to replace other instances of this popular picture - this will effect several articles that I imagine this project thinks of as "top" importance ... hence my note here.
Note - my interest is not in mountains so apologies for any errors. Victuallers 18:16, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback Viewfinder. Did you notice that the "enlarge image" button at the bottom right of the image still works? I too however would click on the main amage and expect it to expand. I am going to experiment to see if I can get this to happen when you are not on a hyperlink. Would that help? Victuallers 15:42, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
There's been a change in the Infobox style, by User:Duja, who says that the changes make the infobox look more modern. As an example of the change, the old infobox is on the left, while the new infobox is on the right: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mountains/Archive 5/old infobox Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mountains/Archive 5/new infobox
The infobox has changed in the following way:
What do other participants think? (I'll withhold my comments for a while) hike395 05:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mountains/Archive 5/tweaked infobox
Here's a slightly different proposal (below and to the right), just like the box that everyone (mostly) likes, except with 110% title font and no brown background for photo. Thoughts? hike395 21:59, 15 September 2007 (UTC) Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mountains/Archive 5/proposal 3
I prefer the one proposed by hike395. I don't like the brown background for the image (hike395 makes a good point on this) and I don't see the point of having such a large font size for the name. It's already in bold in both the infobox and opening paragraph of the text. I'm still trying to adjust to the smaller font size but I guess it's okay (I echo the concern of DRoll though). I do have one additional proposal: what about removing the dividing lines for the rows below the image? Similar to what {{ Geobox Mountain Range}} does — see Canadian Rockies for an example. Hmm, then again maybe it won't look too great with the brown background on one side versus the white background used on both sides for the Geobox. I'll look into making a template of this proposal. RedWolf 01:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I like the new design, I always the thought the caption font was too big anyway. I am all for the change. Mick Knapton 19:28, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
User:Mark J added a new row to the infobox: "Parent_peak" (the topographic prominence parent). Comments? Thoughts? hike395 17:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I am not an avid editor of mountains, but I don't recall any previous mentions of this subject in the context of the UK at least. I see that Ben Macdui's 'parent' is Ben Nevis. I understand the logic, but how is it to be calculated for lesser peaks (e.g. Clisham). It provides information, but is it useful information. Yours etc., (unintentional humour looming), Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:19, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
You are making perfect sense, although I am by no means convinced that this idea is useful or that it is not OR. You are of course correct that these parent are listed in various places. However, List of Marilyns in the Northern Highlands does not seem to provide a specific citation. Can you point to the external source which verifies, for example, Ben More Assynt's 'parent' being Sgurr Mor (Fannichs) (which should probably be Sgurr Mor (Fannich), but that's another story). Ben MacDui (Talk) 13:11, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Fair enough on the sources. The question of relevance remains and it's hard to evaluate for the Munro's (with which I am more familiar) without seeing a list. For example, I can see that listing Macdui as the parent of the Cairngorms, and Sgurr Mor for the Fannichs might have a meaningful purpose, as they are clearly the highest peaks in their districts. It is however hard to see how Sgurr Mor is any sense other than the logic of whatever arithmetic is involved, the 'parent' of Ben More Assynt. 'Ben', after all, tends to be a designation given to the highest peak in a given area. If there are lots of examples of the former kind I'd tend to support the idea. If however it is mostly a fairly artificial set of geometrical relationships, I can't see the point. Ben MacDui (Talk) 14:51, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
(joke) (I can understand that you're a little surprised and shocked to discover, after all this time, that Ben Nevis is actually your dad. I suggest a little family reconciliation is in order. Maybe you should invite his other children Carn Eige, Ben Alder, Snowdon etc.)
Whew. Mark J 08:36, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Mark J: please note that the same infobox is used for mountains all across the globe: the row in the infobox can be used by any editor for any peak. In my Wiki-experience, if there is a parameter or feature available in a template, it will get used in ways that the template editor did not intend. I predict this row will be used for peaks outside Britain.
I think we're trying to figure out whether the row is of value to many readers. In fact, this corresponds to the advice given in the manual of style, which cautions against infoboxes that have a large number of optional fields and asks whether an infobox field is of value, and will it be used in a large number of articles.
I, for one, have never worried about prominence parent of a WP peak --- I mentally situate a peak based on its Location and Range rows, and if I am confused, I click through the Coordinates link and look at a topo map. But, if enough editors think that prominence parent is useful for readers, I can see leaving it in.
Well, if people are sufficiently taken with the idea to want to start using it for peaks in other countries, I think we should let them, as long as they cite sources. I know I've said this already, but IMO one of the most useful features of the row is the ability to navigate up through the hierarchy of peaks, thus placing each peak carefully within the system. I think that some people will find this option appealing.
I suggest a trial period - maybe a week or two. If by the end of that period we are overwhelmed by confused readers, alarmed editors, bitter internal disputes over the meaning of parent, and rampant use of the row in other countries, then I'll certainly rethink. But so far as I can see, none of the four above have happened yet. Mark J 09:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Would someone who knows more than me tell me how to add peaks to double-column tables such as Mont Blanc Massif and Pennine Alps? There are lots of mountains that need adding, but I can't see how to do it without reordering every single pair of entries, which can't be right. Thanks. Ericoides 11:22, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
Rondane National Park has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. -- RelHistBuff 16:04, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Back in Sep 2006, RedWolf put in a guideline that mountain photo captions should have the month and year. I hadn't noticed this until Justin.Johnsen started to implement this guidance.
Shall we discuss? I'm not sure if this is a good idea: it's certainly generally not implemented. Comments? hike395 07:01, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I was checking out the Sierra Nevada in Google Earth, and noticed that many of the major peaks didn't link to their Wikipedia articles. I thought I remembered some of the same peaks working not long ago.
It looks like pages created with an old version of the infobox template no longer feed into Google Earth. But those with the current template create working links. The difference seems to be the coordinate template; the current version {{coord}} with the display=inline,title tag works. Older coordinate templates ({{coor dms}}, {{coor ds}}, etc) do not. I've updated most of the Sierra Nevada articles, and a few Los Angeles are mountains. -- Justin 14:30, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Should we be using {{ convert}} or {{ unit ft}} in our infobox? I like the latter, because it is somewhat easier to use. Perhaps we should allow both? hike395 06:07, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I notice that on many Italian wiki pages for the Alps they have put a map below the infobox, eg http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%A4schhorn. This seems pretty useful. Anyone know whether it would be possible to put these below - or in - our template? Cheers. Ericoides 09:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Has anyone else noticed that the little globe icon that takes a reader to an interactive map causes bad line breaks in many instances of Infobox Mountain? Can this be fixed somehow? Ideas? hike395 21:49, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Right now the lists parameter in the infobox links to Hill lists in the British Isles (e.g. see Mount Whitney). I assume this was implemented by our mates at WP:British and Irish hills. However this would be useful as a universal category for all of WP:Mountains, as evidenced by Hike395's using it for the SPS Emblem Peaks. Your thoughts? -- Justin 14:46, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree that not all mountain lists are peak-bagging lists. This is a general encyclopedia, not specifically a reference for hikers/climbers/peak-baggers. I agree with hike395 that it's important to adhere to Wikipedia's notability policy on mountain lists; assessing the notability of lists is a long-term project. -- Spireguy 14:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I want to bring up a related issue that has been bothering me for a while. User:Buaidh has been putting in a lot of good work on creating various mountain lists, such as Mountain peaks of North America and Mountain peaks of the Rocky Mountains, among others. However I'm concerned about one of the statistics that Buaidh includes in the tables, namely the product of Topographic prominence and elevation, which Buaidh refers to as "summit eminence." In my opinion, both the inclusion of this statistic and the term "summit eminence" are original research. Note that WP:NOR excludes material if "it defines new terms" or if "it introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor." The former covers the term "eminence" and the latter covers the concept itself and its inclusion in the tables, which implies an importance for the particular combination prom*elev which is not justified by any reliable source.
I've noted to Buaidh that I personally like ranking mountains by prom*elev, but that doesn't matter, since it isn't done in any source that I know of. Rather than being bold and deleting much of the info in Buaidh's tables, which I thought would be rather rude, I wanted to get some more input from this group on the issue. So it would be great if people took a look at the relevant lists and gave their opinion. Thanks -- Spireguy 14:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Are seamounts part of this project? Black Tusk 13:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
{{ Infobox Mountain}} | Name = | Photo = | Caption = | Elevation = | Location = | Range = | Prominence = | Coordinates = | Topographic map = | Type = | Volcanic_Arc/Belt= | Age = | Last eruption = | First ascent = | Easiest route = | Grid_ref_UK = | Grid_ref_Ireland = | Listing = | Translation = | Language = | Pronunciation = }}
{{ Outlying Island}} |name = |map = |flag = |locate = |locale = |claimed = |island_type = |discovered = |claimed_by = |discovered_by = |area = |population = |transportation = |major_settlements = |island_group = |uses = |additional_claims = |location = |projection = |FIPS = |ccTLD = }}
Okay, I did a version 1.0: {{
Infobox Seamount}}. What need changing? (The color, I suppose.)
—wwoods
07:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
By the way, any thoughts on making the 'Depth' figures positive or negative? No real chance of misunderstanding either way, but consistency would be a good thing.
—wwoods
22:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Would anyone here care to give this article a rating? Cheers! Murderbike 07:46, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I have changed one of the pictures on Mount Everest from a jpeg to an imagemap (you will see the difference when you move your cursor overit - its the one taken from the ISStation). Obviously I think this is an improvement and plan to replace other instances of this popular picture - this will effect several articles that I imagine this project thinks of as "top" importance ... hence my note here.
Note - my interest is not in mountains so apologies for any errors. Victuallers 18:16, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback Viewfinder. Did you notice that the "enlarge image" button at the bottom right of the image still works? I too however would click on the main amage and expect it to expand. I am going to experiment to see if I can get this to happen when you are not on a hyperlink. Would that help? Victuallers 15:42, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
There's been a change in the Infobox style, by User:Duja, who says that the changes make the infobox look more modern. As an example of the change, the old infobox is on the left, while the new infobox is on the right: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mountains/Archive 5/old infobox Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mountains/Archive 5/new infobox
The infobox has changed in the following way:
What do other participants think? (I'll withhold my comments for a while) hike395 05:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mountains/Archive 5/tweaked infobox
Here's a slightly different proposal (below and to the right), just like the box that everyone (mostly) likes, except with 110% title font and no brown background for photo. Thoughts? hike395 21:59, 15 September 2007 (UTC) Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mountains/Archive 5/proposal 3
I prefer the one proposed by hike395. I don't like the brown background for the image (hike395 makes a good point on this) and I don't see the point of having such a large font size for the name. It's already in bold in both the infobox and opening paragraph of the text. I'm still trying to adjust to the smaller font size but I guess it's okay (I echo the concern of DRoll though). I do have one additional proposal: what about removing the dividing lines for the rows below the image? Similar to what {{ Geobox Mountain Range}} does — see Canadian Rockies for an example. Hmm, then again maybe it won't look too great with the brown background on one side versus the white background used on both sides for the Geobox. I'll look into making a template of this proposal. RedWolf 01:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I like the new design, I always the thought the caption font was too big anyway. I am all for the change. Mick Knapton 19:28, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
User:Mark J added a new row to the infobox: "Parent_peak" (the topographic prominence parent). Comments? Thoughts? hike395 17:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I am not an avid editor of mountains, but I don't recall any previous mentions of this subject in the context of the UK at least. I see that Ben Macdui's 'parent' is Ben Nevis. I understand the logic, but how is it to be calculated for lesser peaks (e.g. Clisham). It provides information, but is it useful information. Yours etc., (unintentional humour looming), Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:19, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
You are making perfect sense, although I am by no means convinced that this idea is useful or that it is not OR. You are of course correct that these parent are listed in various places. However, List of Marilyns in the Northern Highlands does not seem to provide a specific citation. Can you point to the external source which verifies, for example, Ben More Assynt's 'parent' being Sgurr Mor (Fannichs) (which should probably be Sgurr Mor (Fannich), but that's another story). Ben MacDui (Talk) 13:11, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Fair enough on the sources. The question of relevance remains and it's hard to evaluate for the Munro's (with which I am more familiar) without seeing a list. For example, I can see that listing Macdui as the parent of the Cairngorms, and Sgurr Mor for the Fannichs might have a meaningful purpose, as they are clearly the highest peaks in their districts. It is however hard to see how Sgurr Mor is any sense other than the logic of whatever arithmetic is involved, the 'parent' of Ben More Assynt. 'Ben', after all, tends to be a designation given to the highest peak in a given area. If there are lots of examples of the former kind I'd tend to support the idea. If however it is mostly a fairly artificial set of geometrical relationships, I can't see the point. Ben MacDui (Talk) 14:51, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
(joke) (I can understand that you're a little surprised and shocked to discover, after all this time, that Ben Nevis is actually your dad. I suggest a little family reconciliation is in order. Maybe you should invite his other children Carn Eige, Ben Alder, Snowdon etc.)
Whew. Mark J 08:36, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Mark J: please note that the same infobox is used for mountains all across the globe: the row in the infobox can be used by any editor for any peak. In my Wiki-experience, if there is a parameter or feature available in a template, it will get used in ways that the template editor did not intend. I predict this row will be used for peaks outside Britain.
I think we're trying to figure out whether the row is of value to many readers. In fact, this corresponds to the advice given in the manual of style, which cautions against infoboxes that have a large number of optional fields and asks whether an infobox field is of value, and will it be used in a large number of articles.
I, for one, have never worried about prominence parent of a WP peak --- I mentally situate a peak based on its Location and Range rows, and if I am confused, I click through the Coordinates link and look at a topo map. But, if enough editors think that prominence parent is useful for readers, I can see leaving it in.
Well, if people are sufficiently taken with the idea to want to start using it for peaks in other countries, I think we should let them, as long as they cite sources. I know I've said this already, but IMO one of the most useful features of the row is the ability to navigate up through the hierarchy of peaks, thus placing each peak carefully within the system. I think that some people will find this option appealing.
I suggest a trial period - maybe a week or two. If by the end of that period we are overwhelmed by confused readers, alarmed editors, bitter internal disputes over the meaning of parent, and rampant use of the row in other countries, then I'll certainly rethink. But so far as I can see, none of the four above have happened yet. Mark J 09:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Would someone who knows more than me tell me how to add peaks to double-column tables such as Mont Blanc Massif and Pennine Alps? There are lots of mountains that need adding, but I can't see how to do it without reordering every single pair of entries, which can't be right. Thanks. Ericoides 11:22, 25 September 2007 (UTC)