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Hi, I thought I'd discuss the matter here, rather than WP:MMA. Good work on this draft. My thoughts are as such:
Organisations
Yeah, I totally agree with the criteria, though I'd add a few examples in:
Events
I'm not sure how this is defined. Would you have the UFC/WEC/Strikeforce/DREAM events or not? I'd say there is definitely the need for them.
The deletion criteria:
One other point I'd make is that there's no mention given here about The Ultimate Fighter. How many of these are classed as notable? How do they pass it by the majority's standards?
Paralympiakos (
talk)
18:50, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Papaursa, I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to reply at the bottom, just so that it doesn't become all confused later on.
Your first point: MFC, I'd say is no more a feeder league than Bellator is. The last MFC event, I believe, featured a main event of Thales Leites vs. Jesse Taylor, two former UFC competitors; one of which who competed in a main event, for the UFC MW title. While not HUGE names, they are certainly notable in my opinion. I'm not going to push MFC adamantly, but I'd say it's worth investigation as to whether it could be included.
Second point: I think personally that all events from the BIG organisations, as I previously mentioned deserve note. Every WWE pay-per-view, if we use this as a basis for comparison, has its each article and I believe the two fall under similar categorisation.
Third point: Shooto, I had no idea about. You mention an "amateur" title. Yeah, absolutely not notable in my opinion. Worth a mention in articles, but not something that should be wholly relied on for notability. However, I would be interested in your opinion on my previous Cage Rage example.
Fourth point: I get your point about 1/2 fight contracts and I'd say that for most organisations, that's largely true. I'd say all though, but UFC. With UFC being the highest level of competition, I wouldn't quite classify it as a tryout under the classic definition as I understand. I would say that by definition, taking on any fighter is a gamble, as they could be a massive flop (e.g. Rolles Gracie), but that doesn't mean that they are taken on as a tryout, because some of the fighters sign 2 fight contracts, lose both and stay on, e.g. Jacob Volkmann. I think it would be stubborn of me to dig my heels in and request 2, so yeah, neither of us would be particularly happy with it, but I guess 3 has to be the way forward.
As for TUF, I still maintain that competitors are notable, by virtue of WP:ATHLETE, though I guess the parameters we're looking to set in place completely go against that. As such, I'm not entirely sure the right way to go with this. I'd definitely say that those invited back to the live finale should be notable, as though they potentially don't have 2/3/however many fights, they have the combination of at least that one live fight at the TUF Finale, as well as participation in a highly notable show (owing to its Zuffa banner).
One final point/question: are we including anything about having fighters that haven't competed in notable events, BUT have competed against many notable opponents? Paralympiakos ( talk) 22:48, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Truth be told, I wasn't that keen on including Bellator but went with it based on comments on the MMA project talk page. I'm inclined to leave MFC off right now, but if they continue to draw notable fighters they can be added. My inclination is to add and remove organizations slowly. If I had the information, I'd look at how international the fighters are to help determine an organization's notability. Fighters' paychecks would be another criteria I'd use, if I could (both for organizations and the fighters themselves). However, lacking that information I'm trying to find easy to use reference points.
I'd argue the WWE events shouldn't have their own pages either. I stick with what WP:N says.
As for the Cage Rage example, I go back to the WP:ATH standard of world championships and Olympics. However, since we've reduced the number of fights to 3, this shouldn't be an issue. If you're fighting for a championship and you don't have two previous fights yet, I'd say it's not much of a championship.
I'd be willing to count the TUF finale as a fight.
As for fighters that haven't competed in notable events, but have fought notable fighters--that probably means they didn't fight them in their prime. Think of the baseball analogy--minor leaguers compete against players who go on to be major leaguers or who were major leaguers all the time, but they're not notable. If they're good enough they become major leaguers themselves.
Finally, there are meant to be guidelines--they're not Wikipedia policy. Each fighter should be looked at on their own merits, it's possible there could be circumstances that might make a fighter notable who doesn't match the criteria we've discussed. I just want to get something down that people can refer to that's more objective and agreed upon than one person's opinion. Papaursa ( talk) 00:03, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm also thinking about the reinstatement of Zak Jensen, especially since he's currently being investigated for homicide. Gives an extra layer to this article. Paralympiakos ( talk) 13:06, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
No problem about MFC. We'll just see how it goes then.
I think having event pages for the most notable organisations is justified, but even if I didn't, you'd find it impossible to battle this as you'll face a backlash from disgruntled IPs.
To be honest, there could be examples of fighters competing for a title despite not having lots of prior experience, e.g. Brock Lesnar. I can see where you're coming from, but that would have to be a case-by-case basis.
Finally, I'd say I'm fairly happy wit h this draft. If you want to put it up, that would be great. Good work! Paralympiakos ( talk) 08:55, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Let me all a bit to the roster.
USA-MMA: Currently runs about 4 cards a year- all sellout, and recently had Ricco take thier Heavyweight title, Ken Shamrock is expected to sign after the Impact tour. They have had several larger card fighters come through thier ranks, and considering a good many of them have fought on Shine and Bellator came from that organization, big things are coming.
Ring Rulers: I still need to finish this page- but its the largest amatuer organization in the country, running about 20 events a year in 6 states. Will Campuzano (WEC) might be the biggest name from there so far- but 6 of the Bellator 18 fighters came from there. Fighters that turned pro from there have fought in Dream, Shine, Bellator and TUF.
Speaking of- We also need to add Impact to the Oceanic portion.
Other than that- awesome job! David.snipes ( talk) 14:05, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Hey guys,
Good job getting this all organized. I don't have the time to edit on Wikipedia as much as I used to, but I've been in this project for a while now and wanted to give my quick thoughts:
-It seems to me that the Criteria supporting notability is a little too restrictive. When a fighter makes it to the big time (UFC), even if they only fight once, that seems to be the consensus for notability among the Wikipedia Sports community: Most atheltes in the major North American sports leagues that have played for at least one season seem to have a Wikipedia page (and often more extensive than the majority of MMA fighters' pages). In my experience the community needs to make more pages regarding MMA fighters. Also, MMA is lucky when it receives any coverage at all from the national media (either than the MMA media).
-The Current list of notable MMA organizations is missing World Victory Road, the parent company of Sengoku Raiden Championship (formerly just Sengoku) (I think someone got it mixed it with Shooto on the WP:MMA page). WVR is definitely one of the Top 10 MMA Promotions in the world- and I could make the argument that it is Top 5.
I will try to keep checking up on this project, keep up the good work. ( Justinsane15 ( talk) 02:03, 4 June 2010 (UTC))
Justinsane15 I most definitely agree with you that the criteria is way too strict and that it needs loosening to allow the growth of other MMA promotions and their fighters. I have put a suggested layout at the bottom which follows similar aspects of the current criteria but it allows much more freedom on the slightly lesser known promotions who are still making their names and getting recognition. Please feel free to comment and suggest any more changes to your heart's content. I would also like your opinion of having BAMMA, Cage Rage and EliteXC being pushed to top tier. I feel that each has/have done enough to earn that spot due to their popularity, recognition (Cage Rage is recognised across the UK, even to those who simply can't stand the sport) and what they have accomplished, such as BAMMA signing Nate Marquardt (a Top 10 Middleweight in ranking systems such as Sherdog) and EliteXC currently hold the highest ratings a MMA event has had in the USA ( Kimbo Slice vs. James Thompson). BigzMMA 16:01, 19 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BigzMMA ( talk • contribs)
I think we should keep discussions about changes, additions, subtractions, on the MMA project's talk page. That said, any comments that improve these guidelines are good.
Let me put in my 2 cents on some of the recent comments. Given that most professional MMA circuits don't make the cut, it's hard to see how an amateur circuit operating in 6 states can be considered notable. Also, when I looked at the World Victory Road page I saw champions given in only 2 divisions. I can't see how an organization can be notable and have champions in only 2 divisions.
I also don't agree with the comparison of 1 MMA fight to a season in other sports leagues. Leagues have 1 season a year--an MMA fighter can fight a number of times in a year. Papaursa ( talk) 19:00, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
As per above, I added Sengoku. Not sure how that one was missed out.
Anyway, I've added a list of potentials, that while aren't as notable as UFC, PRIDE etc, could, in my eyes, play a small part in establishing notability.
I disagree with the new changes, in the way that I perceive them. There is now a second tier (which I actually like, as UFC is obviously far more notable than Adrenaline MMA), but there's no provision for how many 2nd tier fights = notability.
For example, at the moment, Jim Wallhead fails criteria on the basis that he's never fought in the TOP promotions, despite being highly notable. Previously, his Cage Rage career (I'm working off memory here, so I think he passed via that) saw him comfortably pass these guidelines, but now I'm not so sure. Are we going to discuss new rules? Paralympiakos ( talk) 18:36, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
In my opinion, as many promotions and fighters as possible should be covered. Apart from notability one should pay attention to neutrality - not only in individual articles but also in regard to the selection of articles.
At the moment MMA pages in Wikipedia look as if they had been written by the PR department of the UFC. UFC fighters and fights are described in great detail and they are also hyped way too much. I think Wikipedia is one of the main reasons why many people think that MMA is the same as UFC. 130.235.3.161 ( talk) 09:50, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Got a slight problem with
Bitetti Combat MMA being considered second tier when they don't even HAVE A PAGE - It redirects to the event log.
Fighters: Basically, we are looking to wipe out every football player that never played 3 seasons in the NFL or The Major Leagues
Ring Rulers, Cage Rulers, GFA, USA-MMA have all had shows that outdrew the Bellator shows that have been here the last 2 years. This is like tossing the Ivy League out of the NCAA because no one sees their stuff on Fox and few of the fighters (as of yet) have gotten to the Big Time. David.snipes ( talk) 15:05, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
I would like to point out that given the recent changes to the notability guidelines,
Bas Rutten would only be on the cusp of being considered notable. There are clearly articles about him,. But,
Pancrase is listed as a second-tier organization and he only fought twice in the
UFC (even though one fight won him the heavyweight belt), so he would seemingly not meet the criteria if every one of them has to be rigidly satisfied. Are these characteristics supposed to be indicators of notability or requirements for notability? I'm not sure the page as it currently exists makes this clear.
Osubuckeyeguy (
talk)
17:18, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
I would like to propose the following additional changes to the criteria supporting notability and deletion for organizations. I suspect these changes will be much less controversial than the new criteria for fighters (of course, I could be wrong).
Osubuckeyeguy (
talk)
17:43, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
1. Subject of multiple independent articles/documentaries--articles should be from national or international media, not just local coverage 2. Promotes a large number of events--the more fights it has sanctioned, the more notable 3. Has actively been in business for several years--the longer the organization has been around, the better 4. Large number of well-known and highly ranked fighters
1. Short history 2. Few notable fighters fight in their events 3. Primarily regional fighters compete at events. 3. Promoted fights are not licensed by state or regional governing bodies 4. Fights are no-holds-barred, or rules are much less restrictive than the unified rules of martial arts
Someone has added the list of current champions to each of the weight class articles (see Heavyweight (MMA) as an example). I believe that this is a good idea. However, I also believe that only the top tier promotions should be included in this list. An IP keeps adding King of the Cage to the list, which is a second tier promotion. Can we set a precedent for this? ( Justinsane15 ( talk) 23:47, 19 July 2010 (UTC))
I'm just wondering, how do people regard CFC in Australia presently? They've had a few fighters that pass MMANOT compete at their events. Less than a year ago, Hector Lombard was competing in the organisation. Would people be opposed to adding it to the second tier? Paralympiakos (talk) 14:50, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Konfrontacja_Sztuk_Walki aka KSW and Superior Challenge seems to be putting on cards with decent international talent, worth being considered for Tier 2? 2.220.196.175 ( talk) 16:36, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
Anyone think they should be added to the list of notable promotions? They were pretty significant during the 1990s. I could see a case for either first or second tier, but IMO they should definitely be one or the other... - Hit bull, win steak (Moo!) 21:55, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
What are people's thoughts on including either DEEP and/or ZST to the second tier? Osubuckeyeguy ( talk) 02:10, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
Again I'm not too sure about ZST, I haven't heard anything about them but it could just be because they are a Japanese promotion and Asian MMA promotion are not my best strong-suit, for this reason, I'd say we need to look them up and see how well known they are, and then make a decision within a few short weeks. (BigzMMA 15:24, 18 November 2011 (UTC))
This is why I disagree with a lot of things with WP:MMANOT, they say that your only really notable IF you have competed for companies like the UFC, Strikeforce, Pride etc, when fighters like Paul Daley, Jim Wallhead and Neil Grove had their pages way before they competed for a top tier promotion. I find that the criteria for it makes it impossible for anyone who competes for promotions such as BAMMA, Cage Warriors, Cage Rage UK, Shark Fights virtually impossible to be accepted as a notable fighter, when they are probably the most recognised person in the area they fight in, like Tom Watson, who has never fought for companies like UFC or Strikeforce, has competed for Cage Rage and BAMMA and he is one of the most recognised faces in the UK MMA scene. It is also because of this that if it isn't recognised as a big enough promotion the guys who fight for them can't keep their pages unless they already competed for a major promotion, which means that the promotion actually has less 'well known' fighters in their ranks even though, using Tom Watson again as my example, are probably the most recognised people in the area/country they fight for, and then the promotion comes into question and then people are voting for that promotion to be deleted under criteria which is actually tears apart the promotion from the beginning. If promotions are not able to build themselves up not entirely on guys who have been in Pride or the UFC then no promotion can be nominated as a top tier promotion. If this was the case then promotions like Bellator, who hardly uses any recognised faces from the 'major promotions' has established themselves as one of them. In the end of the day, no-one can predict how long a 'major' promotion will stick around for, as Pride did over 10 years worth of events before selling up to the UFC, and we know how that ended, and Affliction, who only did two events and yet they are called a major promotion just because they has all major names who were not competing for the UFC at the time competed for their two only events (which by reading over criteria supporting deletion, it meets one or two of these due to having a really short history and only showing two events). EliteXC is considered a second tier promotion, yet they had many recognised faces fighting for them, they had the highest ratings an MMA event has to date has ever produced with Kimbo Slice's MMA debut taking place within an EliteXC event. To make this very long paragraph shorten to one simple sentence, this page is a total MESS, and disallows any growth of any MMA promotion and any fighter who competes for them. Because of all this I want to see the guides for MMA Notability to be completely rewritten so that it can any promotion/s that shows promise can be consider a top tier promotion, with promotions such as BAMMA being included as part of the conversation!
In fact, I may start by suggesting some improvements to the criteria for fighters and promotions on here, I feel that a fighter can meet criteria when he has fought multiple times for what is considered a second tier promotion/s, at leasts 3-5 times without having to compete for what is considered a major promotion like the UFC? The fighter would also meet criteria if he holds the highest title of a 'second tier' promotion at least once, especially if he is the first to hold the belt, such as
Alan Omer, who won the first BAMMA World Featherweight Championship.
I think that due to how rapid an MMA promotion can grown within 3 years, I say that with promotion criteria to keep it on Wikipedia, I say that a top/second tier promotion that is/has kept in business for a minimum of 3 years to the date of their first event is considered to have met criteria. Also the amount of well known fighters should not matter for whether or not a promotion is successful or even to meet criteria should be dissolved, as without the smaller promotions no-one would have heard of the fighter, and no matter how many pieces of criteria he does not meet, as long as he has fought for the UFC at least once he is safe.
Travis Fulton is a brilliant example of how wrong this system is right now, he has only competed in the UFC just twice out of his 300+ fights yet
Alan Omer, who has competed over 10 times, including twice for BAMMA, and won the world championship there can be considered for deletion yet Fulton can remain on here even though he has competed for the UFC only 2 times and seems nowhere near going back there, nor does he seem actually be recognised (I don't think people actually knows he has fought for the UFC before).
My biggest issue is how poorly is the list of what a top tier organisation is to what a second tier organisation is is laid out with companies that has only had two events be consider a 'top' promotion whereas EliteXC and Cage Rage, who have just as many recognised fighters as they do and have/had way more events than them be considered a 'second' tier promotion.
No matter what happens I want to see this page's criteria and standards to be lowered and rewritten Immediately!!! (BigzMMA 11:55, 15 November 2011 (UTC))
Why should MMA be different? lets look over what I just say above and break down a certain content to a simple sentence. The worse of the division gets de-promoted down to a lower league whilst the best of the lower leagues get promoted. The same is currently used in MMA, even at this moment as you read this. If your not able to beat enough of your competition at the stage your fighting on, then Dana White will give you your P45 (same as a pink slip in Britain) and tell you if you want back in, you gotta beat the competition that stands below them first. Both very similar so far right? Well there is always gotta be somewhere someone can fight elsewhere in otherwise we all may as well say the UFC has turned the business side of MMA into a lottery. And where-ever they end up, there is always going to be guys there who have never been to the UFC who want to get there so badly, and some of them do go to the UFC from that promotion. So what we got there is MMA's version of the Football League Championship, except there isn't just one Football League Championship, there are dozens of them, scattered across the world, some of them are similar size and stature, some bigger than others, none without their flaws yet they are the divisions that shares both fighters who competed at the highest level and want to get back there and fighters who are talented and are working their way to get there for the first time, and for some, do get through and gets to fight for the UFC.
So to answer your question 'Why should MMA be different?' Its because without them, we may not even have a UFC, talent has to come from somewhere and the UFC can't just be expected to find it without having seen them compete before. Even in the earliest days of the UFC, the talent was only one disciplined, yet the UFC was looking for the best from each discipline to compete in their tournament, and how did they know they were the best? They looked for Black Belts in some disciplines like BJJ, Judo and Karate, National Champions in Wrestling, Boxing and Kickboxing, and I can go on with this until the sky turns green with purple stripes but my point is currently clear enough for you to see that the UFC wants the best talent fighting for them, and they need to look somewhere for it. These promotions and the guys fighting for them are just as vital for the UFC's growth as is the UFC putting on the best fights possible with the best fighters they have got.
You cannot possibly say that everything written down on here and called 'criteria' that all MMA promotions/fighters needs to match on this page is the best system to use and treat it like it was calved out by the hands of god. I simply cannot see how a compromise was made when someone/some people wanted to see Affliction Entertainment be made into a top tier promotion, - it clearly fails in one or two criteria to support it's position on Wikipedia and meets two criteria that supports it deletion, whereas Cage Rage, an MMA organisation that meets ALL criteria supporting its notability for both it's fighters and its events can still be considered a 'second tier' promotion. Matter of fact I will put the list of all the 'notable' fighters that have competed for Cage Rage here -
The following fighters (in alphabetical order) have won titles in Cage Rage and are well-known in the world of MMA.
Non-titleholders who have competed in Cage Rage and in other top-level promotions.
I got this off the Cage Rage page, I have updated it slightly by adding in the last champions of the company that have made it in companies like the UFC, but it may not be completely accurate, as there may be around 10+ more people from Cage Rage that has made it to the 'top tier' leagues and have not been recorded.
I find it a disgrace that promotions like this are (or were if they are no longer running) considered second tier when they are the most recognised promotions in the world, even people who despise MMA in the UK all recognised the Cage Rage name, and I'm sure that the Americans know about Cage Rage also. If that doesn't spell 'Top Tier Promotion' clear enough, then well I must be the only sane person who uses and writes for Wikipedia.
Like I said, I think it's time for this page to be rechecked and rewritten. It is also like I said before, there are element that need improving, changing, updating and deleted, but EVERYTHING needs rewriting. (BigzMMA 10:51, 16 November 2011 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BigzMMA ( talk • contribs)
It is because of this that one of Britain top three MMA promotions, along side BAMMA and Cage Warriors is deleted on wikipedia, even though it is as notable as you can get, as they have a Sky Sports TV deal, the biggest sporting channel in the UK and the same one used as their orginal MMA promotion - Cage Rage, used until its demise. I think its time we really do chage many things on this page!! (BigzMMA 11:55, 15 November 2011 (UTC))
Well if the boot fits Astudent0 ... Look if you really think that UCMMA is un-notable, then either you don't bother digging for information on them or you just don't bother going further than a Google search, but either way anyone who looks into UCMMA/Cage Rage UK properly can see that it has a place on Wikipedia (which by the way was long on here before I began editing). I don't claim to know better, but I do know that this system is so flawed that it badly needs changing pronto. I have not been a 'shill for this organization' as you so claim, I have already talked about this, which clearly didn't get around otherwise you would not be accusing me of this. I did the editing on my own, at my own expense with no assistance nor offered any by the Head of Media of Cage Rage UK. The person behind the UCMMA Facebook page kept saying there was no need for me doing the Wikipedia pages, so how can I be a 'shill' when they didn't even want my help. All of the messages I sent about this are on their Facebook group Wall page, which of course with the time gone pass now you would have to keep going down to the bottom of the page and click 'older posts' to find everything to do with the Wikipedia page. Again clearly no-one pays attention to that as you just shown. Let get real for one minute about this promoting thing. Anything to type into Google with have a Wikipedia page in the first page of the search, so its not as if it wouldn't attract the attention of people who see this as a way of getting information about that organisation. Who said it isn't happening for, say, the UFC's page, or Bellator's? I'm the only one that has the balls to admit my motives on here and you call me an unreliable person for that? try hounding down the person/people who does other MMA related pages and see who exactly they are. Whos says that Alistair Overeem's brother isn't editing his page? Is Georges St Pierre's cousin making small edits about his personal life on here? You really don't know anyone's true motives on here, yet you can be assured when I say that if I'm on here for the sport's best interests, believe me, that's exactly why I am on here. And as far as that last thing you said, I'm not even going to address it because it is such a pathetic thing you said. What I will say is that everyone on Wikipedia should be looking to keep information up-to-date and notable, and I did my fair part for it.
In fact, I may start by suggesting some improvements to the criteria for fighters and promotions on here, I feel that a fighter can meet criteria when he has fought multiple times for what is considered a second tier promotion/s, at leasts 3-5 times without having to compete for what is considered a major promotion like the UFC? The fighter would also meet criteria if he holds the highest title of a 'second tier' promotion at least once, especially if he is the first to hold the belt, such as Alan Omer, who won the first BAMMA World Featherweight Championship. I think that due to how rapid an MMA promotion can grown within 3 years, I say that with promotion criteria to keep it on Wikipedia, I say that a top/second tier promotion that is/has kept in business for a minimum of 3 years to the date of their first event is considered to have met criteria. Also the amount of well known fighters should not matter for whether or not a promotion is successful or even to meet criteria should be dissolved, as without the smaller promotions no-one would have heard of the fighter, and no matter how many pieces of criteria he does not meet, as long as he has fought for the UFC at least once he is safe. Travis Fulton is a brilliant example of how wrong this system is right now, he has only competed in the UFC just twice out of his 300+ fights yet Alan Omer, who has competed over 10 times, including twice for BAMMA, and won the world championship there can be considered for deletion yet Fulton can remain on here even though he has competed for the UFC only 2 times and seems nowhere near going back there, nor does he seem actually be recognised (I don't think people actually knows he has fought for the UFC before). (BigzMMA 11:16, 16 November 2011 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BigzMMA ( talk • contribs)
My biggest issue is how poorly is the list of what a top tier organisation is to what a second tier organisation is is laid out with companies that has only had two events be consider a 'top' promotion whereas EliteXC and Cage Rage, who have just as many recognised fighters as they do and have/had way more events than them be considered a 'second' tier promotion. No matter what happens I want to see this page's criteria and standards to be lowered and rewritten Immediately!!! (BigzMMA 11:55, 15 November 2011 (UTC))
Please feel free to add to this (BigzMMA 11:16, 16 November 2011 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BigzMMA ( talk • contribs)
Please try not to freak out Astudent0 but I moved your paragraph just above this one here because I already had a paragraph written before yours there and would confuse anyone readying them. Those 250 wins, with only TWO UFC fights and ONE WEC fight? staticically that isn't even 1% of all his MMA fights. In those 250 wins, I hardly see many notable fighters, but I can't possibly say it can be more than 5. I do not see any information on him being a Vale Tudo Champion and even if he was, it means nothing towards his position on Wikipedia, imagine a kickboxer on Wikipedia who is hardly known and doesn't much criteria to keep him on here and he has a Muay Thai title, it means nothing towards his case. I've had a look at his whole MMA record, and towards the top he has fought and beat Mike Kofoot SIX TIMES - STRAIGHT apart. He basically beat a nobody 6 times in a row for organisations even the local people may not have heard of. The total number of notable fighters he has fought wouldn't even cover 10% of his total fight record, the guy's only claim to face is 1-1 UFC record, in a time which the UFC calls 'The Dark Ages'. Its a joke he can still keep his spot on here. Alan Omer is the first BAMMA World Featherweight Champion, he has there twice out of his 19 fights but at least he has won a major title, according to Travis's page he has never won any championships, even from a deserving minor league within his 250+ wins. Again I don't claim to know better, but I do know when something isn't right, and any idiot with the gift of sight can see the flaws of this page. The criteria is set specifically to allow just the 'top tier' organisations to remain here and anyone else is put on shaky grounds, even if it's promotions like Cage Rage, EliteXC and BAMMA, who have clearly proved that their spot as a major promotion is/was truly earned. (BigzMMA 10:55, 17 November 2011 (UTC))
I am very confused by what you meant when you said 'If we only kept athletes who were current champions, we'd have to get rid of a lot of athlete's pages.' I really don't how to approach this line as it makes absolutely no sense what-so-ever. I have not implied that only champions should keep their positions on here. If a guy has won a top/second tier major title, then that person rightfully deserves to keep his position on here, a point that your using at this minute to defend Travis Fulton from facing deletion, but what I have written above, I don't think you'd doubt me at all nor keep the same standpoint if you actually read it all, and gone over it with a fine tooth comb. In the end, if you won a title for any of the top/second tier organisations that you have listed on here, then you'd know that anyone who wins any of those promotions major belts are instantly notable for Wikipedia, no matter how few time they fought for them, or even how short their reign was. They would be a key point to bring up every time the promotion discusses their divisions and the champion, past and present. That is something you cannot diminish just by saying 'it was too early into the promotion's/fighter's history' Once they done it, they are always going to be recognised. The same can be said about Maurice Smith, who beat Mark Coleman to become the second UFC Heavyweight Champion, yet he lost it right away to Randy Couture, does that mean he's irrelevant? No, he is relevant because he is in the UFC's history, so no matter how many, or few times he's mentioned, he will always be mentioned. The same applies for Alan Omer
BAMMA is growing very rapidly, they are listed as the biggest European MMA promotion in the world, they have been nominated for the Promotion Of The Year award at the Fighters Only World MMA Awards (an award with other nominations including DREAM, Strikeforce, Bellator and the UFC), they have been mentioned on ESPN MMA Live on multiple occasions (if you seen the show, you'd know they only mention all top tier promotions only), they have top ranked fighters in their roster, there is always plenty of reliable articles for their events AND when they make big announcements, such as recently, when they announced their partnership with HDNet in America, Randy Couture is to appear at their next event to sign copies of his new book, the signings of Nate Marquardt and Jimi Manuwa, they have sponsorship deals with companies like Lonsdale. Unlike any other European promotions such as Konfrontacja Sztuk Walki (KSW) or even M-1 Global, BAMMA seems to be getting bigger and bigger in terms of popularity in the United States, outgrowing the two examples I just used. They meet ALL criteria supporting their notability on here. What more is there to say that can convince you that BAMMA's true place lies with the top tier organisations right now? Because I don't think it can be ignored, or pushed aside anymore when I say that BAMMA IS TOP TIER. If this still doesn't convince you that BAMMA's current position needs pushing up, the tell me exactly what is it that is not convincing you?
Just occurred to me that many interesting points I made whenever you commented about them (from either me saying them pointing them out or you saying them first) have gone unanswered, do I detect that you don't know how to address them, or is it that your agreeing with me by leaving them out of the conversations now? Not trying to make it sound like a 'personal attack' or anything of the sort but you do look weak right by not saying anything about my comments, especially the ones where I answered your comments. (BigzMMA 10:32, 18 November 2011 (UTC))
Its just when you said things like 'an athlete have competed at the highest level of their sport' and 'It's not about how many minor league games you played in, it's about whether you were good enough to reach the top level.' and I brought up that brilliant comparison about that to what English Football (Soccer) does with the leagues here, you have not brought up an argument against what I said about that. If you just haven't read that yet, please scroll up the page and read what I have to say about this. As well as this you still haven't answered my question, why aren't EliteXC, Cage Rage and BAMMA considered top tier promotions? As I stated they meet ALL criteria supporting their presents on Wikipedia, they are/were clearly popular and media-friendly, lets be honest, way more recognised than the likes of 'Tachi Palace Fights' and 'Ring of Combat'. (BigzMMA)
Here is what I have in mind as a possible change to the current system, which at the moment is currently flawed and could do with a major shake up. I doubt that it will answer all the problems with the system at the moment or even create new problems, however, the good thing about this talk page is that we call get together and make it more accurate before finalising it. Please imagine from what you read on is actually on the page and everything you see is meant to be there
Now some people are wondering what I mean by a 'Trump Card System', well it simple really, everyone knows the Top Trump card game, where theres always a card that statically beats another card in one area of the stats of the card (for example, say theres a Brock Lesnar card and a Alistair Overeem card, Brock would have a higher score on grappling but Overeem would have a higher striking score).
Well this system is currently being used to decide whether a promotion/fighter is notable or not through the criteria, and it seems that certain criteria are used to decide if they are more notable because of a certain criteria. I have noticed that fighters/promotion who meet at least one criteria to keep it on Wikipedia, for example, a fighter has been 'Subject of multiple independent articles/documentaries--articles should be from national or international media, not just local coverage or press releases from organizations', yet they may not of competed in, say, the UFC and they haven't won a major title in MMA and they can be considered for deletion. Now if a fighter has not had multiple articles written about him nor won any major world titles, yet they have competed in the UFC at least once, they seem to be immune from any conversation that calls for the page to be deleted. This make me think that, despite all these criteria are set clearly to say whos notable, there seems to be some criteria that is more notable than others, which is unacceptable. I strongly disagree with this system and that any promotion or fighter who meets at least one criteria to keep them should make them just as immune. Remember Wikipedia isn't runned on limited space so it isn't as if we need to cut back on space, even if there was limited space on here, I don't think MMA topics is running the highest bill right now. Anything that meets at least one criteria and doesn't meet too many criteria for deletion shouldn't be considered for deletion, even if the promotion isn't UFC or the fighter isn't there or hasn't been there yet. BigzMMA 08:19, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Okay let's see:
Criteria supporting notability:
That is according to this project page. Now what about fighters like
Papy Abedi ?? He has only ONE (1) fight in the
UFC yet has an article. Hell, the article was made even before he got in. So what makes him notable with simply one fight, if we're gonna follow this?
KING GRIM LOL YO WHATS UP ( talk) 08:10, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
FIANLLY, someone whos talking sense :D well then, if users want to follow this system to the T, then I say lets follow every point to meet criteria then? So KING GRIM LOL YO WHATS UP, if you'd like to nominate some pages to begin with I will gladly put my input into it, and decide if it meets ALL criteria set on this page. BigzMMA ( talk) 10:13, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
And yet he can be nominated for deletion through this system Hasteur, if the AfD cases I showed you before doesn't prove that people are putting WP:MMANOT over other, more important systems like WP:GNG, then does this? He has had only one UFC fight, and it is simply because of this and the articles that relates to him through only this event that can still make him considered to keep him on here through GNG, yet MMANOT says otherwise, but people are choosing rather than following the system they want to imply on the fighter. There are users out there who actually don't give much consideration for policies, guidelines and rules outside the ones they accept the most, and this is one that people are choosing to follow the most!
This is exactly what I mean when I say this guideline is very misleading and strict, as it doesn't allow all pages to remain on here, yet similar pages in terms of accomplishments, how many times they fought or even how many articles are there on him/her, because as I said before, a trump card system is very much in place and people are currently choosing a page that has just one single top tier promotion fight as the winning card over another page that has multiple articles on the person. BigzMMA ( talk) 11:34, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
It should be noted that some organisations are bigger in other countries than you know, such as Cage Rage, who is recognised overall as the biggest MMA promotion in the UK and have been in national newspapers and mainstream sports channels, whereas the United States may not have heard of it, so please look fully for information on a promotion carefully before deciding yourself whether that MMA promotion really is un-notable.
Criteria supporting notability
If a promotion meets at least half of these, then they will be considered notable.
Criteria supporting deletion
If the page in question meets WP:GNG, then there is no need to look at this section.
Again, fighter can be more popular at different parts of the world to the country you live in, such as Tom 'Kong' Watson is very well known across the UK, whereas the United States may not of heard much/anything about him.
Amateur MMA fighters are not considered notable (unless they can pass WP:GNG under other criteria).
Criteria supporting notability
If a fighter meets at least half of these, they will be recognised as notable.
Also worth noting that any fighter who makes his name from a second tier orgaisation, that has reliable, independent information available for him/her can be considered a notable fighter.
Criteria supporting deletion
If the page in question meets WP:GNG, then there is no need to look at this section.
Keep in mind again that some promotions you may not have heard of nor can watch or get coverage for can be every well known in different parts of the world, such as Bellator, who does not get shown in the UK, but is strongly considered a top tier MMA organisation by Americans.
Top Tier
Second Tier
This is the best system I have, which again I will state will not be perfect, but the great idea about what I'm doing is that we can all get together and make it better so that we can end up putting it up as the official system to check MMA promotions/fighters notability. Thank you for reading this, hope we can all work to improve this page (BigzMMA 16:03, 17 November 2011 (UTC))
So basically it wasn't researched and no-one particularly looked into it, so I ask of you to look up the promotion again, this time use all the names used by the promotion, and to look under the 'News' search, which is on the right column where it says 'Everything' and look under that until you see 'News'. Also make sure whatever you type, before you click on 'News', to add " at the beginning of the first word and the end of the last word so it will look for the full name collected for more accurate results. I promise you that you will find many results on UCUK/UCMMA/Cage Rage UK. Matter of fact, I will give you the link to save you time -
Remember, the promotion doesn't have to be the most well known, nor the most recognised, so long as there is plenty of reliable and notable sources on them they can have a spot on Wikipedia, enjoy reading them. BigzMMA 20:40, 21 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BigzMMA ( talk • contribs)
Okay then I will do that, however, I will say when it is ready to be seen, so then you and other editors will be able to read it. BigzMMA 09:49, 22 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BigzMMA ( talk • contribs)
I have reverted the change to the event section as it could be interpreted to change the meaning, while I can see where the editor is coming from, I think we need a discussion on expanding the section to make it clearer, in line with other Event notability guidelines that just having sources is not in and of its self sufficient, an article needs to demonstrate the events historical and encyclopaedic significance. Mt king (edits) 22:39, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
if possible, can we get a neutral party informal mediation or something for this issue? Teamsleep ( talk) 00:12, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
There is some merit to throwing everything into the main omnibus article as a short term solution until the sub articles are created for each organization. Anna and others have been wanting this, and it will solve a few problems, particularly since many are warming up to the omnibus article now that they see it really is better. In the long run, we want the primary omnibus article to be shorter than that and have more summary and prose than stats, but this will preserve the info and it can then be merged into the sub articles. This supports the idea I have been talking about since the beginning: The top omnibus article will eventually be very general and cover links to all subpages and have prose that talks about the year in general, plus touch on the most notable matches, ie: a summary of the year overall in the sport (but likely not the future events unless they are properly sourced). The subpages for each organization will eventually have all the tables and stats plus other detailed information, and future events. I won't argue one way or the other, just saying I see the logic in doing this. The top article talks about the most important events in that year in the sport, the subs talk about the actual events in detail, and this will keep the pages a manageable size, yet still pretty big. Then the exact design and layout ideas can be worked out based on the content, and it will allow a little more time for discussion anyway. It appears that tempers are simmering down a bit and that more real work is getting done, which is great. The key at this point is get the main omnibus article DONE with the info, then create the subs for the different organizations. You already have 2012 started, and once the main and subs are done, that can be used as a template for the other ideas. There are some bugs to work out, such as using flag icons or not ( WP:MOSFLAG says don't use them, but I'm going to stay out of that and let the regular editors discuss that among themselves, as that is more about content than policy). The above discussions look like everyone is starting with a clean slate, which is exactly what is needed. We are all on the same side, even if our ideas are different, and it looks like everyone is beginning to work with that in mind. Since I don't edit content here and came to help the transition, I would like to step back just a little and let you guys work out the details, but feel free to ask me anything on my talk page if you like. Dennis Brown ( talk) 11:58, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Here is what I'm thinking, which is in line with the other conversations above. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about the names of the articles or how you should break them down, just the raw structure.
And again...I'm not stuck on this, I just think it makes sense to have some kind of structure that gets more detailed as you move toward the more specific articles. The main and Level 1 articles will have many more events listed, so keeping the information shorter and more general keeps the articles from getting too large and confusing, and they link to the sub level 2 articles, which have the fewest events but the highest level of details, all on one convenient page. This is exactly what you have above, I'm just defining the rolls of the different levels. It can be tweaked or completely changed from what I have here, but having each level clearly defined will keep it consistent across years and give the entire system better flow and readability. Consistency is the key here. Dennis Brown ( talk) 14:25, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
This is what I came up with:
Weight Class | Round | Time | Method | |||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Featherweight Championship |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
1 | 4:59 | Knockout (knees and punches) |
Middleweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
1 | 4:49 | Submission (rear-naked choke) |
Middleweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
1 | 1:03 | Submission (knee switch) |
Middleweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
1 | 0:29 | Disqualification (blows to the neck) |
Lightweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
3 | 2:02 | Knockout (head kick) |
The first problem I have is I don't know how I can incorporate fighter payout, and the second problem I have is I don't know how to align the fighter's names to the left of the boxes they are in. Gamezero05 ( talk) 17:22, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Here is another way to do it so that all of the fights are on one table:
Televised | Weight Class | Round | Time | Method | |||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
PPV | Featherweight Championship |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
1 | 4:59 | Knockout (knees and punches) |
PPV | Middleweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
1 | 4:49 | Submission (rear-naked choke) |
PPV | Middleweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
1 | 1:03 | Submission (knee switch) |
PPV | Middleweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
1 | 0:29 | Disqualification (blows to the neck) |
PPV | Lightweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
3 | 2:02 | Knockout (head kick) |
FX | Lightweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
3 | 5:00 | unanimous decision (29-28, 29-28, 29-28) |
FX | Heavyweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
1 | 3:22 | Submission (rear-naked choke) |
FX | Featherweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
3 | 5:00 | unanimous decision (30-27, 29-28, 30-27) |
FX | Welterweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
1 | 1:22 | TKO (knees and punches) |
Featherweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
3 | 5:00 | unanimous decision (29-28, 29-28, 29-28) |
Gamezero05 ( talk) 20:07, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Here is a table for the upcoming UFC on Fuel TV card that has yet to be filled in with results:
Televised | Weight Class | Round | Time | Method | Notes | |||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Fuel TV | Light Heavyweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
||||
Fuel TV | Middleweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
||||
Fuel TV | Welterweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
||||
Fuel TV | Featherweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
||||
Fuel TV | Welterweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
||||
Fuel TV | Bantamweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
||||
Welterweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
|||||
Light Heavyweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
|||||
Middleweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
|||||
Lightweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
|||||
Welterweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
|||||
Featherweight |
![]() |
vs |
![]() |
Any suggestions? Thoughts?
Gamezero05 (
talk)
21:17, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
I agree with adding a notes column. But I disagree about moving the weight class and televised columns to the right of the fighters. I think it makes the most sense how it is since we read from left to right. You should get smaller as you move to the right. So televised shows the order of the card. Weight class gets smaller to show the more specific weights that are fighting. Then it gets more specific to show which fighters. Then it gets more specific to show which round the fight was won. Then more specific to show the time the round ended. Then more specific to show what ended the fight. Gamezero05 ( talk) 01:23, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Just to get a feel where everyone's head is. This is non binding and informal ONLY, the goal isn't a debate yet, just a straw poll and will not decide anything. We can have a formal !vote later if needed, so you aren't bound to what you vote here. Just say Support under the one you prefer and sign, leaving the others blank. If you have a better idea, put that idea under the Other section instead. I would let this run several days before drawing any conclusions. Dennis Brown ( talk) 00:56, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Hi, I thought I'd discuss the matter here, rather than WP:MMA. Good work on this draft. My thoughts are as such:
Organisations
Yeah, I totally agree with the criteria, though I'd add a few examples in:
Events
I'm not sure how this is defined. Would you have the UFC/WEC/Strikeforce/DREAM events or not? I'd say there is definitely the need for them.
The deletion criteria:
One other point I'd make is that there's no mention given here about The Ultimate Fighter. How many of these are classed as notable? How do they pass it by the majority's standards?
Paralympiakos (
talk)
18:50, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Papaursa, I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to reply at the bottom, just so that it doesn't become all confused later on.
Your first point: MFC, I'd say is no more a feeder league than Bellator is. The last MFC event, I believe, featured a main event of Thales Leites vs. Jesse Taylor, two former UFC competitors; one of which who competed in a main event, for the UFC MW title. While not HUGE names, they are certainly notable in my opinion. I'm not going to push MFC adamantly, but I'd say it's worth investigation as to whether it could be included.
Second point: I think personally that all events from the BIG organisations, as I previously mentioned deserve note. Every WWE pay-per-view, if we use this as a basis for comparison, has its each article and I believe the two fall under similar categorisation.
Third point: Shooto, I had no idea about. You mention an "amateur" title. Yeah, absolutely not notable in my opinion. Worth a mention in articles, but not something that should be wholly relied on for notability. However, I would be interested in your opinion on my previous Cage Rage example.
Fourth point: I get your point about 1/2 fight contracts and I'd say that for most organisations, that's largely true. I'd say all though, but UFC. With UFC being the highest level of competition, I wouldn't quite classify it as a tryout under the classic definition as I understand. I would say that by definition, taking on any fighter is a gamble, as they could be a massive flop (e.g. Rolles Gracie), but that doesn't mean that they are taken on as a tryout, because some of the fighters sign 2 fight contracts, lose both and stay on, e.g. Jacob Volkmann. I think it would be stubborn of me to dig my heels in and request 2, so yeah, neither of us would be particularly happy with it, but I guess 3 has to be the way forward.
As for TUF, I still maintain that competitors are notable, by virtue of WP:ATHLETE, though I guess the parameters we're looking to set in place completely go against that. As such, I'm not entirely sure the right way to go with this. I'd definitely say that those invited back to the live finale should be notable, as though they potentially don't have 2/3/however many fights, they have the combination of at least that one live fight at the TUF Finale, as well as participation in a highly notable show (owing to its Zuffa banner).
One final point/question: are we including anything about having fighters that haven't competed in notable events, BUT have competed against many notable opponents? Paralympiakos ( talk) 22:48, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Truth be told, I wasn't that keen on including Bellator but went with it based on comments on the MMA project talk page. I'm inclined to leave MFC off right now, but if they continue to draw notable fighters they can be added. My inclination is to add and remove organizations slowly. If I had the information, I'd look at how international the fighters are to help determine an organization's notability. Fighters' paychecks would be another criteria I'd use, if I could (both for organizations and the fighters themselves). However, lacking that information I'm trying to find easy to use reference points.
I'd argue the WWE events shouldn't have their own pages either. I stick with what WP:N says.
As for the Cage Rage example, I go back to the WP:ATH standard of world championships and Olympics. However, since we've reduced the number of fights to 3, this shouldn't be an issue. If you're fighting for a championship and you don't have two previous fights yet, I'd say it's not much of a championship.
I'd be willing to count the TUF finale as a fight.
As for fighters that haven't competed in notable events, but have fought notable fighters--that probably means they didn't fight them in their prime. Think of the baseball analogy--minor leaguers compete against players who go on to be major leaguers or who were major leaguers all the time, but they're not notable. If they're good enough they become major leaguers themselves.
Finally, there are meant to be guidelines--they're not Wikipedia policy. Each fighter should be looked at on their own merits, it's possible there could be circumstances that might make a fighter notable who doesn't match the criteria we've discussed. I just want to get something down that people can refer to that's more objective and agreed upon than one person's opinion. Papaursa ( talk) 00:03, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm also thinking about the reinstatement of Zak Jensen, especially since he's currently being investigated for homicide. Gives an extra layer to this article. Paralympiakos ( talk) 13:06, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
No problem about MFC. We'll just see how it goes then.
I think having event pages for the most notable organisations is justified, but even if I didn't, you'd find it impossible to battle this as you'll face a backlash from disgruntled IPs.
To be honest, there could be examples of fighters competing for a title despite not having lots of prior experience, e.g. Brock Lesnar. I can see where you're coming from, but that would have to be a case-by-case basis.
Finally, I'd say I'm fairly happy wit h this draft. If you want to put it up, that would be great. Good work! Paralympiakos ( talk) 08:55, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Let me all a bit to the roster.
USA-MMA: Currently runs about 4 cards a year- all sellout, and recently had Ricco take thier Heavyweight title, Ken Shamrock is expected to sign after the Impact tour. They have had several larger card fighters come through thier ranks, and considering a good many of them have fought on Shine and Bellator came from that organization, big things are coming.
Ring Rulers: I still need to finish this page- but its the largest amatuer organization in the country, running about 20 events a year in 6 states. Will Campuzano (WEC) might be the biggest name from there so far- but 6 of the Bellator 18 fighters came from there. Fighters that turned pro from there have fought in Dream, Shine, Bellator and TUF.
Speaking of- We also need to add Impact to the Oceanic portion.
Other than that- awesome job! David.snipes ( talk) 14:05, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Hey guys,
Good job getting this all organized. I don't have the time to edit on Wikipedia as much as I used to, but I've been in this project for a while now and wanted to give my quick thoughts:
-It seems to me that the Criteria supporting notability is a little too restrictive. When a fighter makes it to the big time (UFC), even if they only fight once, that seems to be the consensus for notability among the Wikipedia Sports community: Most atheltes in the major North American sports leagues that have played for at least one season seem to have a Wikipedia page (and often more extensive than the majority of MMA fighters' pages). In my experience the community needs to make more pages regarding MMA fighters. Also, MMA is lucky when it receives any coverage at all from the national media (either than the MMA media).
-The Current list of notable MMA organizations is missing World Victory Road, the parent company of Sengoku Raiden Championship (formerly just Sengoku) (I think someone got it mixed it with Shooto on the WP:MMA page). WVR is definitely one of the Top 10 MMA Promotions in the world- and I could make the argument that it is Top 5.
I will try to keep checking up on this project, keep up the good work. ( Justinsane15 ( talk) 02:03, 4 June 2010 (UTC))
Justinsane15 I most definitely agree with you that the criteria is way too strict and that it needs loosening to allow the growth of other MMA promotions and their fighters. I have put a suggested layout at the bottom which follows similar aspects of the current criteria but it allows much more freedom on the slightly lesser known promotions who are still making their names and getting recognition. Please feel free to comment and suggest any more changes to your heart's content. I would also like your opinion of having BAMMA, Cage Rage and EliteXC being pushed to top tier. I feel that each has/have done enough to earn that spot due to their popularity, recognition (Cage Rage is recognised across the UK, even to those who simply can't stand the sport) and what they have accomplished, such as BAMMA signing Nate Marquardt (a Top 10 Middleweight in ranking systems such as Sherdog) and EliteXC currently hold the highest ratings a MMA event has had in the USA ( Kimbo Slice vs. James Thompson). BigzMMA 16:01, 19 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BigzMMA ( talk • contribs)
I think we should keep discussions about changes, additions, subtractions, on the MMA project's talk page. That said, any comments that improve these guidelines are good.
Let me put in my 2 cents on some of the recent comments. Given that most professional MMA circuits don't make the cut, it's hard to see how an amateur circuit operating in 6 states can be considered notable. Also, when I looked at the World Victory Road page I saw champions given in only 2 divisions. I can't see how an organization can be notable and have champions in only 2 divisions.
I also don't agree with the comparison of 1 MMA fight to a season in other sports leagues. Leagues have 1 season a year--an MMA fighter can fight a number of times in a year. Papaursa ( talk) 19:00, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
As per above, I added Sengoku. Not sure how that one was missed out.
Anyway, I've added a list of potentials, that while aren't as notable as UFC, PRIDE etc, could, in my eyes, play a small part in establishing notability.
I disagree with the new changes, in the way that I perceive them. There is now a second tier (which I actually like, as UFC is obviously far more notable than Adrenaline MMA), but there's no provision for how many 2nd tier fights = notability.
For example, at the moment, Jim Wallhead fails criteria on the basis that he's never fought in the TOP promotions, despite being highly notable. Previously, his Cage Rage career (I'm working off memory here, so I think he passed via that) saw him comfortably pass these guidelines, but now I'm not so sure. Are we going to discuss new rules? Paralympiakos ( talk) 18:36, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
In my opinion, as many promotions and fighters as possible should be covered. Apart from notability one should pay attention to neutrality - not only in individual articles but also in regard to the selection of articles.
At the moment MMA pages in Wikipedia look as if they had been written by the PR department of the UFC. UFC fighters and fights are described in great detail and they are also hyped way too much. I think Wikipedia is one of the main reasons why many people think that MMA is the same as UFC. 130.235.3.161 ( talk) 09:50, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Got a slight problem with
Bitetti Combat MMA being considered second tier when they don't even HAVE A PAGE - It redirects to the event log.
Fighters: Basically, we are looking to wipe out every football player that never played 3 seasons in the NFL or The Major Leagues
Ring Rulers, Cage Rulers, GFA, USA-MMA have all had shows that outdrew the Bellator shows that have been here the last 2 years. This is like tossing the Ivy League out of the NCAA because no one sees their stuff on Fox and few of the fighters (as of yet) have gotten to the Big Time. David.snipes ( talk) 15:05, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
I would like to point out that given the recent changes to the notability guidelines,
Bas Rutten would only be on the cusp of being considered notable. There are clearly articles about him,. But,
Pancrase is listed as a second-tier organization and he only fought twice in the
UFC (even though one fight won him the heavyweight belt), so he would seemingly not meet the criteria if every one of them has to be rigidly satisfied. Are these characteristics supposed to be indicators of notability or requirements for notability? I'm not sure the page as it currently exists makes this clear.
Osubuckeyeguy (
talk)
17:18, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
I would like to propose the following additional changes to the criteria supporting notability and deletion for organizations. I suspect these changes will be much less controversial than the new criteria for fighters (of course, I could be wrong).
Osubuckeyeguy (
talk)
17:43, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
1. Subject of multiple independent articles/documentaries--articles should be from national or international media, not just local coverage 2. Promotes a large number of events--the more fights it has sanctioned, the more notable 3. Has actively been in business for several years--the longer the organization has been around, the better 4. Large number of well-known and highly ranked fighters
1. Short history 2. Few notable fighters fight in their events 3. Primarily regional fighters compete at events. 3. Promoted fights are not licensed by state or regional governing bodies 4. Fights are no-holds-barred, or rules are much less restrictive than the unified rules of martial arts
Someone has added the list of current champions to each of the weight class articles (see Heavyweight (MMA) as an example). I believe that this is a good idea. However, I also believe that only the top tier promotions should be included in this list. An IP keeps adding King of the Cage to the list, which is a second tier promotion. Can we set a precedent for this? ( Justinsane15 ( talk) 23:47, 19 July 2010 (UTC))
I'm just wondering, how do people regard CFC in Australia presently? They've had a few fighters that pass MMANOT compete at their events. Less than a year ago, Hector Lombard was competing in the organisation. Would people be opposed to adding it to the second tier? Paralympiakos (talk) 14:50, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Konfrontacja_Sztuk_Walki aka KSW and Superior Challenge seems to be putting on cards with decent international talent, worth being considered for Tier 2? 2.220.196.175 ( talk) 16:36, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
Anyone think they should be added to the list of notable promotions? They were pretty significant during the 1990s. I could see a case for either first or second tier, but IMO they should definitely be one or the other... - Hit bull, win steak (Moo!) 21:55, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
What are people's thoughts on including either DEEP and/or ZST to the second tier? Osubuckeyeguy ( talk) 02:10, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
Again I'm not too sure about ZST, I haven't heard anything about them but it could just be because they are a Japanese promotion and Asian MMA promotion are not my best strong-suit, for this reason, I'd say we need to look them up and see how well known they are, and then make a decision within a few short weeks. (BigzMMA 15:24, 18 November 2011 (UTC))
This is why I disagree with a lot of things with WP:MMANOT, they say that your only really notable IF you have competed for companies like the UFC, Strikeforce, Pride etc, when fighters like Paul Daley, Jim Wallhead and Neil Grove had their pages way before they competed for a top tier promotion. I find that the criteria for it makes it impossible for anyone who competes for promotions such as BAMMA, Cage Warriors, Cage Rage UK, Shark Fights virtually impossible to be accepted as a notable fighter, when they are probably the most recognised person in the area they fight in, like Tom Watson, who has never fought for companies like UFC or Strikeforce, has competed for Cage Rage and BAMMA and he is one of the most recognised faces in the UK MMA scene. It is also because of this that if it isn't recognised as a big enough promotion the guys who fight for them can't keep their pages unless they already competed for a major promotion, which means that the promotion actually has less 'well known' fighters in their ranks even though, using Tom Watson again as my example, are probably the most recognised people in the area/country they fight for, and then the promotion comes into question and then people are voting for that promotion to be deleted under criteria which is actually tears apart the promotion from the beginning. If promotions are not able to build themselves up not entirely on guys who have been in Pride or the UFC then no promotion can be nominated as a top tier promotion. If this was the case then promotions like Bellator, who hardly uses any recognised faces from the 'major promotions' has established themselves as one of them. In the end of the day, no-one can predict how long a 'major' promotion will stick around for, as Pride did over 10 years worth of events before selling up to the UFC, and we know how that ended, and Affliction, who only did two events and yet they are called a major promotion just because they has all major names who were not competing for the UFC at the time competed for their two only events (which by reading over criteria supporting deletion, it meets one or two of these due to having a really short history and only showing two events). EliteXC is considered a second tier promotion, yet they had many recognised faces fighting for them, they had the highest ratings an MMA event has to date has ever produced with Kimbo Slice's MMA debut taking place within an EliteXC event. To make this very long paragraph shorten to one simple sentence, this page is a total MESS, and disallows any growth of any MMA promotion and any fighter who competes for them. Because of all this I want to see the guides for MMA Notability to be completely rewritten so that it can any promotion/s that shows promise can be consider a top tier promotion, with promotions such as BAMMA being included as part of the conversation!
In fact, I may start by suggesting some improvements to the criteria for fighters and promotions on here, I feel that a fighter can meet criteria when he has fought multiple times for what is considered a second tier promotion/s, at leasts 3-5 times without having to compete for what is considered a major promotion like the UFC? The fighter would also meet criteria if he holds the highest title of a 'second tier' promotion at least once, especially if he is the first to hold the belt, such as
Alan Omer, who won the first BAMMA World Featherweight Championship.
I think that due to how rapid an MMA promotion can grown within 3 years, I say that with promotion criteria to keep it on Wikipedia, I say that a top/second tier promotion that is/has kept in business for a minimum of 3 years to the date of their first event is considered to have met criteria. Also the amount of well known fighters should not matter for whether or not a promotion is successful or even to meet criteria should be dissolved, as without the smaller promotions no-one would have heard of the fighter, and no matter how many pieces of criteria he does not meet, as long as he has fought for the UFC at least once he is safe.
Travis Fulton is a brilliant example of how wrong this system is right now, he has only competed in the UFC just twice out of his 300+ fights yet
Alan Omer, who has competed over 10 times, including twice for BAMMA, and won the world championship there can be considered for deletion yet Fulton can remain on here even though he has competed for the UFC only 2 times and seems nowhere near going back there, nor does he seem actually be recognised (I don't think people actually knows he has fought for the UFC before).
My biggest issue is how poorly is the list of what a top tier organisation is to what a second tier organisation is is laid out with companies that has only had two events be consider a 'top' promotion whereas EliteXC and Cage Rage, who have just as many recognised fighters as they do and have/had way more events than them be considered a 'second' tier promotion.
No matter what happens I want to see this page's criteria and standards to be lowered and rewritten Immediately!!! (BigzMMA 11:55, 15 November 2011 (UTC))
Why should MMA be different? lets look over what I just say above and break down a certain content to a simple sentence. The worse of the division gets de-promoted down to a lower league whilst the best of the lower leagues get promoted. The same is currently used in MMA, even at this moment as you read this. If your not able to beat enough of your competition at the stage your fighting on, then Dana White will give you your P45 (same as a pink slip in Britain) and tell you if you want back in, you gotta beat the competition that stands below them first. Both very similar so far right? Well there is always gotta be somewhere someone can fight elsewhere in otherwise we all may as well say the UFC has turned the business side of MMA into a lottery. And where-ever they end up, there is always going to be guys there who have never been to the UFC who want to get there so badly, and some of them do go to the UFC from that promotion. So what we got there is MMA's version of the Football League Championship, except there isn't just one Football League Championship, there are dozens of them, scattered across the world, some of them are similar size and stature, some bigger than others, none without their flaws yet they are the divisions that shares both fighters who competed at the highest level and want to get back there and fighters who are talented and are working their way to get there for the first time, and for some, do get through and gets to fight for the UFC.
So to answer your question 'Why should MMA be different?' Its because without them, we may not even have a UFC, talent has to come from somewhere and the UFC can't just be expected to find it without having seen them compete before. Even in the earliest days of the UFC, the talent was only one disciplined, yet the UFC was looking for the best from each discipline to compete in their tournament, and how did they know they were the best? They looked for Black Belts in some disciplines like BJJ, Judo and Karate, National Champions in Wrestling, Boxing and Kickboxing, and I can go on with this until the sky turns green with purple stripes but my point is currently clear enough for you to see that the UFC wants the best talent fighting for them, and they need to look somewhere for it. These promotions and the guys fighting for them are just as vital for the UFC's growth as is the UFC putting on the best fights possible with the best fighters they have got.
You cannot possibly say that everything written down on here and called 'criteria' that all MMA promotions/fighters needs to match on this page is the best system to use and treat it like it was calved out by the hands of god. I simply cannot see how a compromise was made when someone/some people wanted to see Affliction Entertainment be made into a top tier promotion, - it clearly fails in one or two criteria to support it's position on Wikipedia and meets two criteria that supports it deletion, whereas Cage Rage, an MMA organisation that meets ALL criteria supporting its notability for both it's fighters and its events can still be considered a 'second tier' promotion. Matter of fact I will put the list of all the 'notable' fighters that have competed for Cage Rage here -
The following fighters (in alphabetical order) have won titles in Cage Rage and are well-known in the world of MMA.
Non-titleholders who have competed in Cage Rage and in other top-level promotions.
I got this off the Cage Rage page, I have updated it slightly by adding in the last champions of the company that have made it in companies like the UFC, but it may not be completely accurate, as there may be around 10+ more people from Cage Rage that has made it to the 'top tier' leagues and have not been recorded.
I find it a disgrace that promotions like this are (or were if they are no longer running) considered second tier when they are the most recognised promotions in the world, even people who despise MMA in the UK all recognised the Cage Rage name, and I'm sure that the Americans know about Cage Rage also. If that doesn't spell 'Top Tier Promotion' clear enough, then well I must be the only sane person who uses and writes for Wikipedia.
Like I said, I think it's time for this page to be rechecked and rewritten. It is also like I said before, there are element that need improving, changing, updating and deleted, but EVERYTHING needs rewriting. (BigzMMA 10:51, 16 November 2011 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BigzMMA ( talk • contribs)
It is because of this that one of Britain top three MMA promotions, along side BAMMA and Cage Warriors is deleted on wikipedia, even though it is as notable as you can get, as they have a Sky Sports TV deal, the biggest sporting channel in the UK and the same one used as their orginal MMA promotion - Cage Rage, used until its demise. I think its time we really do chage many things on this page!! (BigzMMA 11:55, 15 November 2011 (UTC))
Well if the boot fits Astudent0 ... Look if you really think that UCMMA is un-notable, then either you don't bother digging for information on them or you just don't bother going further than a Google search, but either way anyone who looks into UCMMA/Cage Rage UK properly can see that it has a place on Wikipedia (which by the way was long on here before I began editing). I don't claim to know better, but I do know that this system is so flawed that it badly needs changing pronto. I have not been a 'shill for this organization' as you so claim, I have already talked about this, which clearly didn't get around otherwise you would not be accusing me of this. I did the editing on my own, at my own expense with no assistance nor offered any by the Head of Media of Cage Rage UK. The person behind the UCMMA Facebook page kept saying there was no need for me doing the Wikipedia pages, so how can I be a 'shill' when they didn't even want my help. All of the messages I sent about this are on their Facebook group Wall page, which of course with the time gone pass now you would have to keep going down to the bottom of the page and click 'older posts' to find everything to do with the Wikipedia page. Again clearly no-one pays attention to that as you just shown. Let get real for one minute about this promoting thing. Anything to type into Google with have a Wikipedia page in the first page of the search, so its not as if it wouldn't attract the attention of people who see this as a way of getting information about that organisation. Who said it isn't happening for, say, the UFC's page, or Bellator's? I'm the only one that has the balls to admit my motives on here and you call me an unreliable person for that? try hounding down the person/people who does other MMA related pages and see who exactly they are. Whos says that Alistair Overeem's brother isn't editing his page? Is Georges St Pierre's cousin making small edits about his personal life on here? You really don't know anyone's true motives on here, yet you can be assured when I say that if I'm on here for the sport's best interests, believe me, that's exactly why I am on here. And as far as that last thing you said, I'm not even going to address it because it is such a pathetic thing you said. What I will say is that everyone on Wikipedia should be looking to keep information up-to-date and notable, and I did my fair part for it.
In fact, I may start by suggesting some improvements to the criteria for fighters and promotions on here, I feel that a fighter can meet criteria when he has fought multiple times for what is considered a second tier promotion/s, at leasts 3-5 times without having to compete for what is considered a major promotion like the UFC? The fighter would also meet criteria if he holds the highest title of a 'second tier' promotion at least once, especially if he is the first to hold the belt, such as Alan Omer, who won the first BAMMA World Featherweight Championship. I think that due to how rapid an MMA promotion can grown within 3 years, I say that with promotion criteria to keep it on Wikipedia, I say that a top/second tier promotion that is/has kept in business for a minimum of 3 years to the date of their first event is considered to have met criteria. Also the amount of well known fighters should not matter for whether or not a promotion is successful or even to meet criteria should be dissolved, as without the smaller promotions no-one would have heard of the fighter, and no matter how many pieces of criteria he does not meet, as long as he has fought for the UFC at least once he is safe. Travis Fulton is a brilliant example of how wrong this system is right now, he has only competed in the UFC just twice out of his 300+ fights yet Alan Omer, who has competed over 10 times, including twice for BAMMA, and won the world championship there can be considered for deletion yet Fulton can remain on here even though he has competed for the UFC only 2 times and seems nowhere near going back there, nor does he seem actually be recognised (I don't think people actually knows he has fought for the UFC before). (BigzMMA 11:16, 16 November 2011 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BigzMMA ( talk • contribs)
My biggest issue is how poorly is the list of what a top tier organisation is to what a second tier organisation is is laid out with companies that has only had two events be consider a 'top' promotion whereas EliteXC and Cage Rage, who have just as many recognised fighters as they do and have/had way more events than them be considered a 'second' tier promotion. No matter what happens I want to see this page's criteria and standards to be lowered and rewritten Immediately!!! (BigzMMA 11:55, 15 November 2011 (UTC))
Please feel free to add to this (BigzMMA 11:16, 16 November 2011 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BigzMMA ( talk • contribs)
Please try not to freak out Astudent0 but I moved your paragraph just above this one here because I already had a paragraph written before yours there and would confuse anyone readying them. Those 250 wins, with only TWO UFC fights and ONE WEC fight? staticically that isn't even 1% of all his MMA fights. In those 250 wins, I hardly see many notable fighters, but I can't possibly say it can be more than 5. I do not see any information on him being a Vale Tudo Champion and even if he was, it means nothing towards his position on Wikipedia, imagine a kickboxer on Wikipedia who is hardly known and doesn't much criteria to keep him on here and he has a Muay Thai title, it means nothing towards his case. I've had a look at his whole MMA record, and towards the top he has fought and beat Mike Kofoot SIX TIMES - STRAIGHT apart. He basically beat a nobody 6 times in a row for organisations even the local people may not have heard of. The total number of notable fighters he has fought wouldn't even cover 10% of his total fight record, the guy's only claim to face is 1-1 UFC record, in a time which the UFC calls 'The Dark Ages'. Its a joke he can still keep his spot on here. Alan Omer is the first BAMMA World Featherweight Champion, he has there twice out of his 19 fights but at least he has won a major title, according to Travis's page he has never won any championships, even from a deserving minor league within his 250+ wins. Again I don't claim to know better, but I do know when something isn't right, and any idiot with the gift of sight can see the flaws of this page. The criteria is set specifically to allow just the 'top tier' organisations to remain here and anyone else is put on shaky grounds, even if it's promotions like Cage Rage, EliteXC and BAMMA, who have clearly proved that their spot as a major promotion is/was truly earned. (BigzMMA 10:55, 17 November 2011 (UTC))
I am very confused by what you meant when you said 'If we only kept athletes who were current champions, we'd have to get rid of a lot of athlete's pages.' I really don't how to approach this line as it makes absolutely no sense what-so-ever. I have not implied that only champions should keep their positions on here. If a guy has won a top/second tier major title, then that person rightfully deserves to keep his position on here, a point that your using at this minute to defend Travis Fulton from facing deletion, but what I have written above, I don't think you'd doubt me at all nor keep the same standpoint if you actually read it all, and gone over it with a fine tooth comb. In the end, if you won a title for any of the top/second tier organisations that you have listed on here, then you'd know that anyone who wins any of those promotions major belts are instantly notable for Wikipedia, no matter how few time they fought for them, or even how short their reign was. They would be a key point to bring up every time the promotion discusses their divisions and the champion, past and present. That is something you cannot diminish just by saying 'it was too early into the promotion's/fighter's history' Once they done it, they are always going to be recognised. The same can be said about Maurice Smith, who beat Mark Coleman to become the second UFC Heavyweight Champion, yet he lost it right away to Randy Couture, does that mean he's irrelevant? No, he is relevant because he is in the UFC's history, so no matter how many, or few times he's mentioned, he will always be mentioned. The same applies for Alan Omer
BAMMA is growing very rapidly, they are listed as the biggest European MMA promotion in the world, they have been nominated for the Promotion Of The Year award at the Fighters Only World MMA Awards (an award with other nominations including DREAM, Strikeforce, Bellator and the UFC), they have been mentioned on ESPN MMA Live on multiple occasions (if you seen the show, you'd know they only mention all top tier promotions only), they have top ranked fighters in their roster, there is always plenty of reliable articles for their events AND when they make big announcements, such as recently, when they announced their partnership with HDNet in America, Randy Couture is to appear at their next event to sign copies of his new book, the signings of Nate Marquardt and Jimi Manuwa, they have sponsorship deals with companies like Lonsdale. Unlike any other European promotions such as Konfrontacja Sztuk Walki (KSW) or even M-1 Global, BAMMA seems to be getting bigger and bigger in terms of popularity in the United States, outgrowing the two examples I just used. They meet ALL criteria supporting their notability on here. What more is there to say that can convince you that BAMMA's true place lies with the top tier organisations right now? Because I don't think it can be ignored, or pushed aside anymore when I say that BAMMA IS TOP TIER. If this still doesn't convince you that BAMMA's current position needs pushing up, the tell me exactly what is it that is not convincing you?
Just occurred to me that many interesting points I made whenever you commented about them (from either me saying them pointing them out or you saying them first) have gone unanswered, do I detect that you don't know how to address them, or is it that your agreeing with me by leaving them out of the conversations now? Not trying to make it sound like a 'personal attack' or anything of the sort but you do look weak right by not saying anything about my comments, especially the ones where I answered your comments. (BigzMMA 10:32, 18 November 2011 (UTC))
Its just when you said things like 'an athlete have competed at the highest level of their sport' and 'It's not about how many minor league games you played in, it's about whether you were good enough to reach the top level.' and I brought up that brilliant comparison about that to what English Football (Soccer) does with the leagues here, you have not brought up an argument against what I said about that. If you just haven't read that yet, please scroll up the page and read what I have to say about this. As well as this you still haven't answered my question, why aren't EliteXC, Cage Rage and BAMMA considered top tier promotions? As I stated they meet ALL criteria supporting their presents on Wikipedia, they are/were clearly popular and media-friendly, lets be honest, way more recognised than the likes of 'Tachi Palace Fights' and 'Ring of Combat'. (BigzMMA)
Here is what I have in mind as a possible change to the current system, which at the moment is currently flawed and could do with a major shake up. I doubt that it will answer all the problems with the system at the moment or even create new problems, however, the good thing about this talk page is that we call get together and make it more accurate before finalising it. Please imagine from what you read on is actually on the page and everything you see is meant to be there
Now some people are wondering what I mean by a 'Trump Card System', well it simple really, everyone knows the Top Trump card game, where theres always a card that statically beats another card in one area of the stats of the card (for example, say theres a Brock Lesnar card and a Alistair Overeem card, Brock would have a higher score on grappling but Overeem would have a higher striking score).
Well this system is currently being used to decide whether a promotion/fighter is notable or not through the criteria, and it seems that certain criteria are used to decide if they are more notable because of a certain criteria. I have noticed that fighters/promotion who meet at least one criteria to keep it on Wikipedia, for example, a fighter has been 'Subject of multiple independent articles/documentaries--articles should be from national or international media, not just local coverage or press releases from organizations', yet they may not of competed in, say, the UFC and they haven't won a major title in MMA and they can be considered for deletion. Now if a fighter has not had multiple articles written about him nor won any major world titles, yet they have competed in the UFC at least once, they seem to be immune from any conversation that calls for the page to be deleted. This make me think that, despite all these criteria are set clearly to say whos notable, there seems to be some criteria that is more notable than others, which is unacceptable. I strongly disagree with this system and that any promotion or fighter who meets at least one criteria to keep them should make them just as immune. Remember Wikipedia isn't runned on limited space so it isn't as if we need to cut back on space, even if there was limited space on here, I don't think MMA topics is running the highest bill right now. Anything that meets at least one criteria and doesn't meet too many criteria for deletion shouldn't be considered for deletion, even if the promotion isn't UFC or the fighter isn't there or hasn't been there yet. BigzMMA 08:19, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Okay let's see:
Criteria supporting notability:
That is according to this project page. Now what about fighters like
Papy Abedi ?? He has only ONE (1) fight in the
UFC yet has an article. Hell, the article was made even before he got in. So what makes him notable with simply one fight, if we're gonna follow this?
KING GRIM LOL YO WHATS UP ( talk) 08:10, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
FIANLLY, someone whos talking sense :D well then, if users want to follow this system to the T, then I say lets follow every point to meet criteria then? So KING GRIM LOL YO WHATS UP, if you'd like to nominate some pages to begin with I will gladly put my input into it, and decide if it meets ALL criteria set on this page. BigzMMA ( talk) 10:13, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
And yet he can be nominated for deletion through this system Hasteur, if the AfD cases I showed you before doesn't prove that people are putting WP:MMANOT over other, more important systems like WP:GNG, then does this? He has had only one UFC fight, and it is simply because of this and the articles that relates to him through only this event that can still make him considered to keep him on here through GNG, yet MMANOT says otherwise, but people are choosing rather than following the system they want to imply on the fighter. There are users out there who actually don't give much consideration for policies, guidelines and rules outside the ones they accept the most, and this is one that people are choosing to follow the most!
This is exactly what I mean when I say this guideline is very misleading and strict, as it doesn't allow all pages to remain on here, yet similar pages in terms of accomplishments, how many times they fought or even how many articles are there on him/her, because as I said before, a trump card system is very much in place and people are currently choosing a page that has just one single top tier promotion fight as the winning card over another page that has multiple articles on the person. BigzMMA ( talk) 11:34, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
It should be noted that some organisations are bigger in other countries than you know, such as Cage Rage, who is recognised overall as the biggest MMA promotion in the UK and have been in national newspapers and mainstream sports channels, whereas the United States may not have heard of it, so please look fully for information on a promotion carefully before deciding yourself whether that MMA promotion really is un-notable.
Criteria supporting notability
If a promotion meets at least half of these, then they will be considered notable.
Criteria supporting deletion
If the page in question meets WP:GNG, then there is no need to look at this section.
Again, fighter can be more popular at different parts of the world to the country you live in, such as Tom 'Kong' Watson is very well known across the UK, whereas the United States may not of heard much/anything about him.
Amateur MMA fighters are not considered notable (unless they can pass WP:GNG under other criteria).
Criteria supporting notability
If a fighter meets at least half of these, they will be recognised as notable.
Also worth noting that any fighter who makes his name from a second tier orgaisation, that has reliable, independent information available for him/her can be considered a notable fighter.
Criteria supporting deletion
If the page in question meets WP:GNG, then there is no need to look at this section.
Keep in mind again that some promotions you may not have heard of nor can watch or get coverage for can be every well known in different parts of the world, such as Bellator, who does not get shown in the UK, but is strongly considered a top tier MMA organisation by Americans.
Top Tier
Second Tier
This is the best system I have, which again I will state will not be perfect, but the great idea about what I'm doing is that we can all get together and make it better so that we can end up putting it up as the official system to check MMA promotions/fighters notability. Thank you for reading this, hope we can all work to improve this page (BigzMMA 16:03, 17 November 2011 (UTC))
So basically it wasn't researched and no-one particularly looked into it, so I ask of you to look up the promotion again, this time use all the names used by the promotion, and to look under the 'News' search, which is on the right column where it says 'Everything' and look under that until you see 'News'. Also make sure whatever you type, before you click on 'News', to add " at the beginning of the first word and the end of the last word so it will look for the full name collected for more accurate results. I promise you that you will find many results on UCUK/UCMMA/Cage Rage UK. Matter of fact, I will give you the link to save you time -
Remember, the promotion doesn't have to be the most well known, nor the most recognised, so long as there is plenty of reliable and notable sources on them they can have a spot on Wikipedia, enjoy reading them. BigzMMA 20:40, 21 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BigzMMA ( talk • contribs)
Okay then I will do that, however, I will say when it is ready to be seen, so then you and other editors will be able to read it. BigzMMA 09:49, 22 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BigzMMA ( talk • contribs)
I have reverted the change to the event section as it could be interpreted to change the meaning, while I can see where the editor is coming from, I think we need a discussion on expanding the section to make it clearer, in line with other Event notability guidelines that just having sources is not in and of its self sufficient, an article needs to demonstrate the events historical and encyclopaedic significance. Mt king (edits) 22:39, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
if possible, can we get a neutral party informal mediation or something for this issue? Teamsleep ( talk) 00:12, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
There is some merit to throwing everything into the main omnibus article as a short term solution until the sub articles are created for each organization. Anna and others have been wanting this, and it will solve a few problems, particularly since many are warming up to the omnibus article now that they see it really is better. In the long run, we want the primary omnibus article to be shorter than that and have more summary and prose than stats, but this will preserve the info and it can then be merged into the sub articles. This supports the idea I have been talking about since the beginning: The top omnibus article will eventually be very general and cover links to all subpages and have prose that talks about the year in general, plus touch on the most notable matches, ie: a summary of the year overall in the sport (but likely not the future events unless they are properly sourced). The subpages for each organization will eventually have all the tables and stats plus other detailed information, and future events. I won't argue one way or the other, just saying I see the logic in doing this. The top article talks about the most important events in that year in the sport, the subs talk about the actual events in detail, and this will keep the pages a manageable size, yet still pretty big. Then the exact design and layout ideas can be worked out based on the content, and it will allow a little more time for discussion anyway. It appears that tempers are simmering down a bit and that more real work is getting done, which is great. The key at this point is get the main omnibus article DONE with the info, then create the subs for the different organizations. You already have 2012 started, and once the main and subs are done, that can be used as a template for the other ideas. There are some bugs to work out, such as using flag icons or not ( WP:MOSFLAG says don't use them, but I'm going to stay out of that and let the regular editors discuss that among themselves, as that is more about content than policy). The above discussions look like everyone is starting with a clean slate, which is exactly what is needed. We are all on the same side, even if our ideas are different, and it looks like everyone is beginning to work with that in mind. Since I don't edit content here and came to help the transition, I would like to step back just a little and let you guys work out the details, but feel free to ask me anything on my talk page if you like. Dennis Brown ( talk) 11:58, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Here is what I'm thinking, which is in line with the other conversations above. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about the names of the articles or how you should break them down, just the raw structure.
And again...I'm not stuck on this, I just think it makes sense to have some kind of structure that gets more detailed as you move toward the more specific articles. The main and Level 1 articles will have many more events listed, so keeping the information shorter and more general keeps the articles from getting too large and confusing, and they link to the sub level 2 articles, which have the fewest events but the highest level of details, all on one convenient page. This is exactly what you have above, I'm just defining the rolls of the different levels. It can be tweaked or completely changed from what I have here, but having each level clearly defined will keep it consistent across years and give the entire system better flow and readability. Consistency is the key here. Dennis Brown ( talk) 14:25, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
This is what I came up with:
Weight Class | Round | Time | Method | |||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Featherweight Championship |
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vs |
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1 | 4:59 | Knockout (knees and punches) |
Middleweight |
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vs |
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1 | 4:49 | Submission (rear-naked choke) |
Middleweight |
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vs |
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1 | 1:03 | Submission (knee switch) |
Middleweight |
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vs |
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1 | 0:29 | Disqualification (blows to the neck) |
Lightweight |
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vs |
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3 | 2:02 | Knockout (head kick) |
The first problem I have is I don't know how I can incorporate fighter payout, and the second problem I have is I don't know how to align the fighter's names to the left of the boxes they are in. Gamezero05 ( talk) 17:22, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Here is another way to do it so that all of the fights are on one table:
Televised | Weight Class | Round | Time | Method | |||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
PPV | Featherweight Championship |
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vs |
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1 | 4:59 | Knockout (knees and punches) |
PPV | Middleweight |
![]() |
vs |
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1 | 4:49 | Submission (rear-naked choke) |
PPV | Middleweight |
![]() |
vs |
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1 | 1:03 | Submission (knee switch) |
PPV | Middleweight |
![]() |
vs |
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1 | 0:29 | Disqualification (blows to the neck) |
PPV | Lightweight |
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vs |
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3 | 2:02 | Knockout (head kick) |
FX | Lightweight |
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vs |
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3 | 5:00 | unanimous decision (29-28, 29-28, 29-28) |
FX | Heavyweight |
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vs |
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1 | 3:22 | Submission (rear-naked choke) |
FX | Featherweight |
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vs |
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3 | 5:00 | unanimous decision (30-27, 29-28, 30-27) |
FX | Welterweight |
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vs |
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1 | 1:22 | TKO (knees and punches) |
Featherweight |
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vs |
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3 | 5:00 | unanimous decision (29-28, 29-28, 29-28) |
Gamezero05 ( talk) 20:07, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Here is a table for the upcoming UFC on Fuel TV card that has yet to be filled in with results:
Televised | Weight Class | Round | Time | Method | Notes | |||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Fuel TV | Light Heavyweight |
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vs |
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||||
Fuel TV | Middleweight |
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vs |
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||||
Fuel TV | Welterweight |
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vs |
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||||
Fuel TV | Featherweight |
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vs |
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||||
Fuel TV | Welterweight |
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vs |
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||||
Fuel TV | Bantamweight |
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vs |
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||||
Welterweight |
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vs |
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|||||
Light Heavyweight |
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vs |
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|||||
Middleweight |
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vs |
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|||||
Lightweight |
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vs |
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|||||
Welterweight |
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vs |
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|||||
Featherweight |
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vs |
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Any suggestions? Thoughts?
Gamezero05 (
talk)
21:17, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
I agree with adding a notes column. But I disagree about moving the weight class and televised columns to the right of the fighters. I think it makes the most sense how it is since we read from left to right. You should get smaller as you move to the right. So televised shows the order of the card. Weight class gets smaller to show the more specific weights that are fighting. Then it gets more specific to show which fighters. Then it gets more specific to show which round the fight was won. Then more specific to show the time the round ended. Then more specific to show what ended the fight. Gamezero05 ( talk) 01:23, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Just to get a feel where everyone's head is. This is non binding and informal ONLY, the goal isn't a debate yet, just a straw poll and will not decide anything. We can have a formal !vote later if needed, so you aren't bound to what you vote here. Just say Support under the one you prefer and sign, leaving the others blank. If you have a better idea, put that idea under the Other section instead. I would let this run several days before drawing any conclusions. Dennis Brown ( talk) 00:56, 3 April 2012 (UTC)