This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 45 | ← | Archive 49 | Archive 50 | Archive 51 | Archive 52 | Archive 53 | → | Archive 55 |
Back to the question of Category:Soldiers and its kin: since the attempt at renaming these has met with massive opposition, I think we need to figure out what the best option for these is. There are, as I can see, several basic approaches:
Option 1 would thus create a structure like:
Option 2 would instead have:
If we go with either of the first two options, we can place the soldiers categories under Category:Military personnel by branch, either as a sub-category of Category:Army personnel (if we use option 2) or as a replacement for it (if we use option 1).
A related issue if we go with option 1 would be the naming. Would we want to:
One of the objections was that "personnel" didn't really lend itself to being used for ancient warfare, so it may be worthwhile to retain the "soldiers" designation; but that means we need to consider the consistency issue.
Any comments, ideas, criticisms, etc. would be very welcome! Kirill Lokshin 17:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I would also suggest keeping the category system flexible enough to cope with differences in terminology. As long as the category is recognisable as a military personnel category, you don't have to use terms like 'personnel' and 'enlisted'. Terms like 'sailor', 'soldier', 'marine', 'officer', 'general', etc, should be used, as people will be looking for terms they recognise. Also, don't forget to come up with something for the historical categories (eg. keep the Roman soldiers one as soldiers). Oh, and I think some or all of the categories still have the renaming tags of them, despite the nomination being withdrawn. Carcharoth 02:36, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Whilst I'm thinking generally, I would suggest that it is better to have cats which use the name of the armed service, rather than just the nationality. For example Category:British Army personnel is clearer than Category:British soldiers, not just because of the different uses of the term soldier, but also because someone who is British might serve in the French Foreign Legion etc - they might or might not be included in the British soldiers cat, but they would not belong in the British Army personnel cat. Greenshed 18:05, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
<RESTART INDENTS> In essence I agree; "Fooian military personnel" is ambiguous and we should use two trees. We could go for:
and
In the above, I have put the "soldiers" choice before the "army personnel" choice. I hope that you can see that in order to come up with a consistent scheme, the "soldiers" choice leads to other problems. Perhaps we should classify ancient and modern military personnel in a different way. PS This is becoming the most complex categorization problem I've looked at to date. Greenshed 20:19, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Please let everyone know if you agree with the proposed strategy. Greenshed 19:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, as a starting point, a (very) rough sketch of what the top level of the tree (under Category:Military personnel) might look like:
The obvious branches: these mirror the categorization scheme for units; I don't really see any reason why the same idea shouldn't carry over to personnel. The major structural question remaining here is whether we need one set of by-country categories or two (to deal with the country of birth/country of service issue).
The somewhat obvious branches:
The strange branches:
Miscellaneous: a bunch of categories that don't seem to fit in cleanly to the other branches
I've probably missed a few here; please feel free to add any that I overlooked.
Comments/criticisms/ideas? Kirill Lokshin 04:30, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I think that's a good summary of where we are and our next steps. Working from the top down, we do as Kirill Lokshin says, need to resolve the major structural question of whether we need one set of by-country categories or two (to deal with the country of birth/country of service issue). I suggest we deal with this first. Greenshed 13:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Yikes - any chance some of you brainiacs here can do a repair job on T-34 in under a few days? <grin> [1] SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 21:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
The article was peppered with {{ fact}} templates during its main page stay. These still need prompt fixing. Circeus
The Castle article has been nominated for an Article Improvement Drive by Dweller. As the main article for the related Castles WikiProject, and a key article for this project, I would encourage people to get involved. -- Grimhelm 14:31, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Believe it or not, rather then linking here or to a separate article about the participants of the Crusades, this un-ambiguated titled actually goes to an article about a Rugby team. Now unfortunately this means that many of the 200+ links that are actually meant to go to the Crusades article are linking there. Now there is a page move request to move the Rugby team article to one that actually makes a link of sense and to have the Crusaders redirect here but assuming that doesn't go through, it might be helpful to have some folks take a look at these misdirected links so we can get them pointing to a more appropriate article. 205.157.110.11 15:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
There was brief discussion a month or two back about starting a Southeast Asian task force... I'd be happy to head the thing as much as anyone heads any task force, and to do the grunt work of actually creating the page, though I do suppose we'd need some sort of discussion as to what to use as a project banner icon. So - shall we start a vote/discussion here to ask for support? Is there any particular number of supporters we need in order to start it? Or shall I simply go ahead and make the page, and we'll go from there even with only 2-5 members? LordAmeth 14:01, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Seeing some of the reactions to T-34, which is on the Main Page right now—in particular, people not noticing the Harvard-style citations at all—I wonder if it might not be a good idea to recommend the use of footnotes in our citations guidelines. I don't think that Harvard-style should be prohibited, but I'd like to see footnotes encouraged in cases where people don't have a set preference, since they're likely to be more familiar to readers of historical articles, and tend to be more convenient for the sort of extensive citation that's becoming typical now. Comments? Kirill Lokshin 17:34, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
work? Kirill Lokshin 16:17, 6 February 2007 (UTC)In general, an article may use either footnotes or Harvard-style references; footnotes may be more convenient when the level of citation is very dense, or where the citations include additional commentary. Harvard-style references generally should not be used if the article has a significant number of other items in parentheses; however, the final choice of which style to follow is left to the discretion of an article's editors.
Just wanted to add the Greek War of Independence is also there. Kyriakos 06:05, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Castle is also nominated. -- Dweller 23:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm a newcomer, started in December 06. I'm learning how to get around in the Wiki environment. One thing I've noticed, is despite some conflicts and namecalling at times, this project is overall really well organized, and I recommend other editors to come here to look around. I'll be pitching in as I get more skills coming up on line. Richiar 23:58, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I couldn't find much on our project page on bios. Do we (or do we need) standards on infoboxes, ranks capitalized or not, topical organization, treatment of awards and honors, etc.? I'm helping with the bio of Wesley Clark, and trying to figure out the best way to go. Also, it has become rather a long article that needs some trimming. There is a short list of key awards at the end of the text, and a fuller treatment in a separate list. Which is preferred — and if only "notable" awards should be included, what might those be? TIA, Askari Mark (Talk) 04:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Hoping to avoid making WP:LAME here...another user keeps removing the infobox from the Turkish Air Force page claiming that it's "ugly" and sarcastically referring to it as "very important", reverting it to a rather disorganised version (with the Turkish Armed Forces navbar at the top of the page not the bottom) to make it "in line with other branches..."; and also saying "don't use my pictures in it" - which were uploaded under a relase-all-rights license (and (at least) one of them by a sock puppet). - Aerobird Target locked - Fox One! 21:19, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I've redesigned {{ Turkish Armed Forces}} so that it can now function as a "top of the page at right" navbox. It now appears at top right on all the pages it links, so people can click between the different articles quickly and easily. I prefer things this way (try it for yourself). But I can also see why some people like to have links like this available at the end of an article, instead of the top. Ideally, it would be a floating box that you could click on anytime you wanted, at the beginning, middle or end of an article. But that would be like a website with frames... Carcharoth 02:21, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I've picked up some nice references on the US Naval administration in American Samoa and am looking to write some articles on the missing ones (see Edwin Taylor Pollock for one I'm just about done with). The big thing I'm missing is photographs. I found a handful, but relatively few on US Navy sources, so copyright status is unclear. Is there any really good reference book or yearbook or similar that you can recommend where I can find photographs of these people? (I'm taking WWI figures mostly, so I recognize that references may be difficult.) I've found some in old newspapers, but the archives online tend to destroy the pictures. JRP 02:43, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
While I normally work with WP:AIR, I have edited a number of other types of articles. Recently, the anon IP User:203.10.224.60 has been assesing arttcles for the MilHist Project. On Nov. 27, 2006, his methods were called into queston on his talk page, but he never answered the issues addressed.
However, his assessment of the Ticonderoga class aircraft carrier came to my attention, assed he assessed it as a "B" class article. However, I merged that article with the Essex class aircraft carrier almost four months ago. Makes it kind of obvious he is not even bothering to read the articles. I have posted a note pointing this out to him (her?) on his talk page. I just wanted to make the project aware of what he did on this page. Thanks from WP:AIR. - BillCJ 04:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, now that makes a little more sense. I have seen this IP assess other articles before, primarily helicopter pages, if my memory serves correctly. As the one who merged the page, I negelcted to merge the talk page also, as I was still fairly new at the time. I've converted the talk page to a redirct now. THanks for the explanation. - BillCJ 05:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Just to keep everyone in the loop: there are a number of ideas being discussed here regarding the size and appearance of WikiProject banners, and different options for controlling the proliferation of various talk-page templates (of which said project banners are a major part). Things haven't really settled down yet, but there are a number of interesting possibilities being considered; for example:
I'll make an announcement if/when something's actually decided that would need to be implemented with regards to {{ WPMILHIST}}; but, in the meantime, if anyone has any ideas regarding this, please feel free to wander over to the discussion and throw in your two cents! :-) Kirill Lokshin 06:13, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I think that the Big Red One (1st Infantry Division) article should be reviewed for GA status. I think that if we improve it, it will be a great FA.-- Pupster21 14:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't like GA too much. I just thought that may work better and not take too long. A-class is fine. I need help on doing it though.-- Pupster21 16:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I have nominated it for A-class. Please join in and back me.-- Pupster21 17:18, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I moved that to 27th Engineer Battalion (United States) because of capitalization. -- Pupster21 16:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
lol-- Pupster21 17:07, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I noticed a completed {{ ArticleHistory}} template for a Good Article had its current status parameter changed to A-class, based on a MilHist assessment. In the past—with all the templates cluttering talk pages—it wasn't possible to incorrectly change a GA template. Now it is possible to incorrectly enter A-class into the "current status" field on articlehistory. Just wanted to call this to folks' attention, so that when assessments are upgraded to A-class, the articlehistory template stays at GA. Talk:T-26 (now corrected). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 01:44, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Just to let anyone that misses the various messages elsewhere know: we will be selecting seven coordinators to serve for the next six months from a pool of sixteen candidates. Please vote here by February 25! Kirill Lokshin 00:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 45 | ← | Archive 49 | Archive 50 | Archive 51 | Archive 52 | Archive 53 | → | Archive 55 |
Back to the question of Category:Soldiers and its kin: since the attempt at renaming these has met with massive opposition, I think we need to figure out what the best option for these is. There are, as I can see, several basic approaches:
Option 1 would thus create a structure like:
Option 2 would instead have:
If we go with either of the first two options, we can place the soldiers categories under Category:Military personnel by branch, either as a sub-category of Category:Army personnel (if we use option 2) or as a replacement for it (if we use option 1).
A related issue if we go with option 1 would be the naming. Would we want to:
One of the objections was that "personnel" didn't really lend itself to being used for ancient warfare, so it may be worthwhile to retain the "soldiers" designation; but that means we need to consider the consistency issue.
Any comments, ideas, criticisms, etc. would be very welcome! Kirill Lokshin 17:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I would also suggest keeping the category system flexible enough to cope with differences in terminology. As long as the category is recognisable as a military personnel category, you don't have to use terms like 'personnel' and 'enlisted'. Terms like 'sailor', 'soldier', 'marine', 'officer', 'general', etc, should be used, as people will be looking for terms they recognise. Also, don't forget to come up with something for the historical categories (eg. keep the Roman soldiers one as soldiers). Oh, and I think some or all of the categories still have the renaming tags of them, despite the nomination being withdrawn. Carcharoth 02:36, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Whilst I'm thinking generally, I would suggest that it is better to have cats which use the name of the armed service, rather than just the nationality. For example Category:British Army personnel is clearer than Category:British soldiers, not just because of the different uses of the term soldier, but also because someone who is British might serve in the French Foreign Legion etc - they might or might not be included in the British soldiers cat, but they would not belong in the British Army personnel cat. Greenshed 18:05, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
<RESTART INDENTS> In essence I agree; "Fooian military personnel" is ambiguous and we should use two trees. We could go for:
and
In the above, I have put the "soldiers" choice before the "army personnel" choice. I hope that you can see that in order to come up with a consistent scheme, the "soldiers" choice leads to other problems. Perhaps we should classify ancient and modern military personnel in a different way. PS This is becoming the most complex categorization problem I've looked at to date. Greenshed 20:19, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Please let everyone know if you agree with the proposed strategy. Greenshed 19:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, as a starting point, a (very) rough sketch of what the top level of the tree (under Category:Military personnel) might look like:
The obvious branches: these mirror the categorization scheme for units; I don't really see any reason why the same idea shouldn't carry over to personnel. The major structural question remaining here is whether we need one set of by-country categories or two (to deal with the country of birth/country of service issue).
The somewhat obvious branches:
The strange branches:
Miscellaneous: a bunch of categories that don't seem to fit in cleanly to the other branches
I've probably missed a few here; please feel free to add any that I overlooked.
Comments/criticisms/ideas? Kirill Lokshin 04:30, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I think that's a good summary of where we are and our next steps. Working from the top down, we do as Kirill Lokshin says, need to resolve the major structural question of whether we need one set of by-country categories or two (to deal with the country of birth/country of service issue). I suggest we deal with this first. Greenshed 13:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Yikes - any chance some of you brainiacs here can do a repair job on T-34 in under a few days? <grin> [1] SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 21:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
The article was peppered with {{ fact}} templates during its main page stay. These still need prompt fixing. Circeus
The Castle article has been nominated for an Article Improvement Drive by Dweller. As the main article for the related Castles WikiProject, and a key article for this project, I would encourage people to get involved. -- Grimhelm 14:31, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Believe it or not, rather then linking here or to a separate article about the participants of the Crusades, this un-ambiguated titled actually goes to an article about a Rugby team. Now unfortunately this means that many of the 200+ links that are actually meant to go to the Crusades article are linking there. Now there is a page move request to move the Rugby team article to one that actually makes a link of sense and to have the Crusaders redirect here but assuming that doesn't go through, it might be helpful to have some folks take a look at these misdirected links so we can get them pointing to a more appropriate article. 205.157.110.11 15:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
There was brief discussion a month or two back about starting a Southeast Asian task force... I'd be happy to head the thing as much as anyone heads any task force, and to do the grunt work of actually creating the page, though I do suppose we'd need some sort of discussion as to what to use as a project banner icon. So - shall we start a vote/discussion here to ask for support? Is there any particular number of supporters we need in order to start it? Or shall I simply go ahead and make the page, and we'll go from there even with only 2-5 members? LordAmeth 14:01, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Seeing some of the reactions to T-34, which is on the Main Page right now—in particular, people not noticing the Harvard-style citations at all—I wonder if it might not be a good idea to recommend the use of footnotes in our citations guidelines. I don't think that Harvard-style should be prohibited, but I'd like to see footnotes encouraged in cases where people don't have a set preference, since they're likely to be more familiar to readers of historical articles, and tend to be more convenient for the sort of extensive citation that's becoming typical now. Comments? Kirill Lokshin 17:34, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
work? Kirill Lokshin 16:17, 6 February 2007 (UTC)In general, an article may use either footnotes or Harvard-style references; footnotes may be more convenient when the level of citation is very dense, or where the citations include additional commentary. Harvard-style references generally should not be used if the article has a significant number of other items in parentheses; however, the final choice of which style to follow is left to the discretion of an article's editors.
Just wanted to add the Greek War of Independence is also there. Kyriakos 06:05, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Castle is also nominated. -- Dweller 23:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm a newcomer, started in December 06. I'm learning how to get around in the Wiki environment. One thing I've noticed, is despite some conflicts and namecalling at times, this project is overall really well organized, and I recommend other editors to come here to look around. I'll be pitching in as I get more skills coming up on line. Richiar 23:58, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I couldn't find much on our project page on bios. Do we (or do we need) standards on infoboxes, ranks capitalized or not, topical organization, treatment of awards and honors, etc.? I'm helping with the bio of Wesley Clark, and trying to figure out the best way to go. Also, it has become rather a long article that needs some trimming. There is a short list of key awards at the end of the text, and a fuller treatment in a separate list. Which is preferred — and if only "notable" awards should be included, what might those be? TIA, Askari Mark (Talk) 04:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Hoping to avoid making WP:LAME here...another user keeps removing the infobox from the Turkish Air Force page claiming that it's "ugly" and sarcastically referring to it as "very important", reverting it to a rather disorganised version (with the Turkish Armed Forces navbar at the top of the page not the bottom) to make it "in line with other branches..."; and also saying "don't use my pictures in it" - which were uploaded under a relase-all-rights license (and (at least) one of them by a sock puppet). - Aerobird Target locked - Fox One! 21:19, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I've redesigned {{ Turkish Armed Forces}} so that it can now function as a "top of the page at right" navbox. It now appears at top right on all the pages it links, so people can click between the different articles quickly and easily. I prefer things this way (try it for yourself). But I can also see why some people like to have links like this available at the end of an article, instead of the top. Ideally, it would be a floating box that you could click on anytime you wanted, at the beginning, middle or end of an article. But that would be like a website with frames... Carcharoth 02:21, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I've picked up some nice references on the US Naval administration in American Samoa and am looking to write some articles on the missing ones (see Edwin Taylor Pollock for one I'm just about done with). The big thing I'm missing is photographs. I found a handful, but relatively few on US Navy sources, so copyright status is unclear. Is there any really good reference book or yearbook or similar that you can recommend where I can find photographs of these people? (I'm taking WWI figures mostly, so I recognize that references may be difficult.) I've found some in old newspapers, but the archives online tend to destroy the pictures. JRP 02:43, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
While I normally work with WP:AIR, I have edited a number of other types of articles. Recently, the anon IP User:203.10.224.60 has been assesing arttcles for the MilHist Project. On Nov. 27, 2006, his methods were called into queston on his talk page, but he never answered the issues addressed.
However, his assessment of the Ticonderoga class aircraft carrier came to my attention, assed he assessed it as a "B" class article. However, I merged that article with the Essex class aircraft carrier almost four months ago. Makes it kind of obvious he is not even bothering to read the articles. I have posted a note pointing this out to him (her?) on his talk page. I just wanted to make the project aware of what he did on this page. Thanks from WP:AIR. - BillCJ 04:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, now that makes a little more sense. I have seen this IP assess other articles before, primarily helicopter pages, if my memory serves correctly. As the one who merged the page, I negelcted to merge the talk page also, as I was still fairly new at the time. I've converted the talk page to a redirct now. THanks for the explanation. - BillCJ 05:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Just to keep everyone in the loop: there are a number of ideas being discussed here regarding the size and appearance of WikiProject banners, and different options for controlling the proliferation of various talk-page templates (of which said project banners are a major part). Things haven't really settled down yet, but there are a number of interesting possibilities being considered; for example:
I'll make an announcement if/when something's actually decided that would need to be implemented with regards to {{ WPMILHIST}}; but, in the meantime, if anyone has any ideas regarding this, please feel free to wander over to the discussion and throw in your two cents! :-) Kirill Lokshin 06:13, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I think that the Big Red One (1st Infantry Division) article should be reviewed for GA status. I think that if we improve it, it will be a great FA.-- Pupster21 14:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't like GA too much. I just thought that may work better and not take too long. A-class is fine. I need help on doing it though.-- Pupster21 16:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I have nominated it for A-class. Please join in and back me.-- Pupster21 17:18, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I moved that to 27th Engineer Battalion (United States) because of capitalization. -- Pupster21 16:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
lol-- Pupster21 17:07, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I noticed a completed {{ ArticleHistory}} template for a Good Article had its current status parameter changed to A-class, based on a MilHist assessment. In the past—with all the templates cluttering talk pages—it wasn't possible to incorrectly change a GA template. Now it is possible to incorrectly enter A-class into the "current status" field on articlehistory. Just wanted to call this to folks' attention, so that when assessments are upgraded to A-class, the articlehistory template stays at GA. Talk:T-26 (now corrected). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 01:44, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Just to let anyone that misses the various messages elsewhere know: we will be selecting seven coordinators to serve for the next six months from a pool of sixteen candidates. Please vote here by February 25! Kirill Lokshin 00:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)