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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Hi, I'm a member of the Wikipedia:Version_1.0_Editorial_Team, which is looking to identify quality articles in Wikipedia for future publication on CD or paper. We recently began assessing using these criteria, and we are looking for A-Class and good B-Class articles, with no POV or copyright problems. Can you recommend any artcles on languages? I don't know if you've had any FAs, but we're looking for those as well. Please post your suggestions here. Cheers!-- Shanel 02:47, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks!-- Shanel 22:51, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
The article on the
Albanian language is having a
peer review. This article is currently at
Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages#Pages using the template needing attention, so obviously something must be wrong with it. It has undergone vast improvement over the past few days. Please comment, so that we can know what to improve. Thank you.
Rex(
talk)
22:03, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
hi. after looking at the language map that uses these proposed colors, i have 2 suggestions concerning the current colors which i have also posted here: Image talk:Human Language Families Map (Wikipedia Colors .PNG#color. here they are:
thank you. – ishwar (speak) 09:34, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
ok. so, i'll switch them until someone objects.
i'll looking into switching Nadene with Native American. – ishwar (speak) 03:51, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
I've been persuaded to use {{{familycolor}}} instead of introducing a new parameter. If you think that by typing |familycolor=gold in a {{ language}} call makes it gold, you'd be wrong. It does actually turn out as gold, but it refers the call to the central array: {{ language/familycolor}}. If you set |familycolor=brown, it'll turn out white now! The advantage of the array are:
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
See also | Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages |
---|
The little quilt is at {{ language/quilt}}. If you look at the source text, you'll see that it's set to auto-update to changes made in the arrays. This syntax could be used in other places that use these colours (like maps), so that they auto-update to changes in the array. -- Gareth Hughes 13:31, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Great work on the familycolor array. I was going to suggest a mechanism to allow specifying logical (rather than physical) colours in the language template, but you've beaten me to it (and your mechanism is better than the one I was going to suggest). Martin.Budden 13:33, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the large number of articles on dialects of English in which there are either no sources cited or only unscientific sources cited, or which seem to be written entirely based on original research (specifically, people with no linguistic training writing amateurishly and largely in stereotypes about the way they notice people talking around them). Some of the worst offenders are:
Some of these just need a little work on them to bring them up to snuff; others are probably AFD-worthy. Any suggestions on what we can do with all of these? -- User:Angr/ talk 18:21, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I've re-written Hayna Valley English based on data from PEAS and ANAE, though a lot is still unsourced. I've also tried to improve the encyclopedic tone of the article. Take a look and let me know what you think. -- Angr ( t· c) 07:09, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
I've been writing a lot of infoboxes for languages but I still don't understand one thing: What exactly are regions? Are they meant to be geographical like Western Europe or administrative like Quebec? Aleksei 06:02, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
an easy look up for the "iso3" variable in the template is http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/codes.asp?order=name&name=name&letter=n
change the last letter in this url to what you need.
ISO 639-3 has codes for macrolanguages see for example http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=ara click on 'scope: "macrolanguage"' to learn more.
So for Arabic language instead of offering 30 codes in the template it could be considered to use the macro-code. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 12:49, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Right now there is a vote to move Hindi to Hindi language. Some of us should get involved in the discussion and voting at Talk:Hindi. — Tox 00:03, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I wonder if you could take a look at Proto-Euphratean. It has some style problems, but most importantly, it sounds too speculative and has no sources. I've already tagged it as unreferenced. Searching for "Proto-Euphratean" in the web gives me very few links, mostly directing to email conversations in specialized email lists, and some obscure personal pages. It sounds like a fringe theory to me. -- Pablo D. Flores ( Talk) 10:42, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
What should we do with Hmong-Mien languages? I think only Iu Mien has the infobox at the moment, and it's using familycolor=Hmong-Mien, which renders as white. Should we have an extra colour for these languages, or should we use familycolor=Sino-Tibetan? The latter choice doesn't have to display that language family: it just gives the box the same colour as that used for those langauges. -- Gareth Hughes 21:54, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
The language template has to go through some changes to comply to WP:AUM. There is no clear way to do this. Netoholic has developed template:Infobox Language independantly and tried to add it to articles without discussion anywhere. There have been complaints that his template does not work and looks ugly. I am fed up with telling this guy that his approach is not wanted. Can we use this page to build a clear, quotable consensus against this approach? -- Gareth Hughes 03:29, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Bottom line. The current Template:language template is a convoluted meta-template and needs to be changed under the meta-templates policy. I have reduced the problem slightly by changing the way Template:Language/familycolor works (though I initially missed updating a few calls to it on talk pages - sorry) and there are other ways in which it's reliance on meta-templates could be reduced. However, I believe it would actually be easier to update the version Netoholic created to include the same functionality as the current version with NO meta-templates involved. Netoholic has reverted my changes in this regard, but examples can be seen at User:CBDunkerson/Sandbox2. I've only tested the new template with three examples there (boxes on the left are new template / on the right are current template) so many additional tweaks will likely be required, but I think it demonstrates that a single template (no forks) can still cover all the languages and make use of the color coding system. -- CBD ☎ ✉ 13:14, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Does the term actually exist? When I merged postposition and preposition into adposition, I ignored the entry circumposition, which gave a bad example in German and one I couldn't verify in Pushtu. Ruakh has brought to my attention an example of a putative circumposition in Kurdish, but it is questioned by reviewers. Should "circumposition" be mentioned at all, or is it just part of a a bad analysis. Please weigh in with any sources, info or suggestions at talk:adposition.
Peter Isotalo 09:03, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
The Template:Infobox Language I presented does work in that it displays all of the information that it should. The color is so engrained in the meta-template (in that the familycolor parameter is matched to a color) that there is simply no way to support that, in a reasonable way, in the new template. It comes down to the article level where, if you look at any language article, there is no "color" parameter. There is only "familycolor" which for most articles has the main language family, not the name of a color. There are only two solutions that come to mind - individual templates for each family (ugh, bad idea) or to hit every article and take familycolor and split that into "family" and a matching "color". That's the technical side of the reasoning.
On my view of the practical side, neither solution is appropriate and we should just use one template for spoken languages with one single color choice throughout. Using the family & color approach doesn't guarantee consistency because a drive-by author could change the color to anything they might like. The color also does not provide any "new" information. Would an average reader even realize what the colors meant or that they related to anything in particular? Would their first thought be that it relates to the Family or something else, like the "spoken in:" or "region"? Would an average reader see limegreen and know immediately that it's an Indo-European language? Can any of you even recite the various color-family relationships without looking?
On a more policy-driven side, the choice of which colors match to which language family is entirely our (Wikipedia's) creation. These colors are not official, but we've designed a complex structure around them. I'm sure in your circles that linguists dispute language families, but at least we can cite a source for using what we do in the genetic classification. We can't do the same for the colors, so on an article like Chuvash language, we really are taking a side in the dispute by so prominently displaying that color.
The genetic classification gives the language family already. The technical, practical, and other concerns about color make implementing that without meta-templates very hard/impossible/impractical, at least for now. I want to work with your group on getting beyond the meta-templates, but it can't happen right now with the colors. Maybe in the future, but we shouldn't wait. -- Netoholic @ 16:15, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Many of the difficulties around converting Template:Language into something manageable, but that doesn't use nested meta-templates, is that its function has to cover constructed languages. Your group has established specific row headings and content for conlangs. I'd like to propose that all of the contructed language be moved to this new template, because it is lighter and can be changed without impacting the spoken languages. Maintaining a consistent look between the templates should not be difficult, and in fact, splitting the signed languages into their own template would reap the same benefits. Please take a look at the example here and on Fasile perm link, and provide any feedback/requests on Template talk:Infobox Conlang. -- Netoholic @ 07:15, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
(moved from
Template talk:Language)
BTW, as can be seen at Template talk:Language/newdraft, the alternate non-meta draft of this template now handles natural spoken, signed, and constructed languages. Both the template call and results are very close (and in many cases identical) to the current template. There are still details to iron out here and there (e.g. how to handle template:Language/genetic and sign-languages without a specified genetic origin), but it is in pretty close to 'finished' form. -- CBD ☎ ✉ 01:37, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I imagine that template:Infobox Sign language will be new to you: that is, of course, because Netoholic decided to impose his own template once more. Same story... -- Gareth Hughes 23:24, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I am happy to announce the following polls:
As I'm not looking forward to the next time Netoholic decides to spread these all over the article space, I thought we might as well vote them out of use. -- Gareth Hughes 14:42, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I just learned about a CSS hack being added to a number of templates, including template:Infobox Language, to compensate for a changed policy on template transclusion. I understand that there is an alternative way of recoding these templates ("weeble method"), but the CSS hack is being implemented because it is slightly easier for editors. This hack injects junk code into the body of the page, then hides it from most visual browsers using CSS. This is already in use in several templates, and is being added to many more.
This makes Wikipedia less accessible for users of assistive technologies, like web page readers for the handicapped, and text readers. This is sloppy programming and bad practice from the point of view of web page accessibility, web page usability, and standards implementation. Wikipedia is an open encyclopedia; please lets not start treating the minority who has the most difficult time reading like second-class citizens. Main discussion on this is at Wikipedia talk:No meta-templates. Please make your opinion heard there. — Michael Z. 2006-01-16 19:02 Z
EVERYONE - in order to quash this
ForestFire, please follow-up discussion at
MediaWiki talk:Common.css#CSS hack reduces accessibility. --
Netoholic
@
19:15, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
It has been mentioned before (by Angr or Mark Dingemanse) that we might think about using Linguasphere codes in language articles. The codes provide a more coherent classification system than that used by Ethnologue, but the latter have become more mainstream by their inclusion in the draft of ISO 639-3. The major drawback with Linguasphere codes is that they look like nonsense (e.g. Turoyo is 12-AAA-ae) unless you take time to learn how the system works (it's a bit like a library classification scheme). I've started referencing PDFs of the codes at user:garzo/lala#Linguasphere codes. If they are used, they probably should have a link to an explanation of how they work. They could either be included in the infobox or somewhere appropriate in the article. -- Gareth Hughes 21:57, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Are we ready for an infobox for language families and groupings? I've seen a few places where template:language has been suggested for a group of languages, and one place ( Gallo-Italic) where it is used. Obviously, in spite of the difficulty in distinguishing a language with many prominent dialects from a group of related languages, the infobox we have is designed for a relatively unique variety or homogeneous group of varieties. I propose a new infobox designed for classificatory groups of languages. Some of the Austronesian language groups have something a little like this already. I propose that we colour code it to match the language articles (i.e. use template:language/familycolor). I propose that we keep it simple and small: the main focus would be the genetic descent from larger groups, followed by immediate divisions of that group. The only other information I would propose would be geographical distribution and number of speakers of languages in that group (or information on the extinction of the group). Any thoughts? -- Gareth Hughes 17:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Tobias Conradi (Talk) 05:35, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I've just been using simple pink boxes at Continental Celtic languages, Insular Celtic languages, Goidelic languages, and Brythonic languages. I lifted them from North Germanic languages, East Germanic languages, and West Germanic languages. Angr/ talk 13:30, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Why doen't we use the same infobox as for languages? it has signers, constructed langs and it can have groupings/families too. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 00:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The languages have the iso codes. why can't the families not use the Linguasphere codes? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 00:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Some minimal instructions are up on the talk page, and a few editors seem to be using it (or is it just Mark, Angr and me?). Do you think we should place it at the top of articles as we do with Infobox Language? If so, do we want to have the option of strapping a map to the bottom of it too? I realise that, when we get to the top of the tree of language families, the infobox will default to printing the name of language family twice in bold. The way to get around this is by using the back-up {{{family}}} parameter. You could use a text something like "one of the world's major language families; although links with other families have been proposed, none of these has received mainstream acceptance". -- Gareth Hughes 14:20, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
That would be great. Such as French Alphabet/Latin or Gothic Language Alphabet/Gothic, Arabic, etc, etc... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infobox#Languages Ksenon 05:41, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Writing systems | {{{script}}} |
-- Gareth Hughes 14:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
If an ancient language of one country (Lets say Country A) is not spoken now anywhere, not even in that specific country?? Do you think that language must be included in the Category:Languages of "Country A"? I will apreciate a lot any answer to me in my talk page, especially to those who belong to the Languages Wikiproject. User:KRBN 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Currently, there are two language articles up for peer review: Nobiin language ( request) and Welsh language ( request). While Welsh did get some reviews, Nobiin I think suffers a bit from its relative obscurity (although it's not much smaller than Welsh in number of speakers). If you have the time, please consider reviewing! — mark ✎ 09:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Mandarin (linguistics) has been nominated for removal as an FA and has so far one vote in favor of doing just so. I was the one who pointed out the discrepancy between its FA status and the actual quality, but I think this can be fixed rather easily. Please help out in any way you can if any of you feel up to it.
Peter Isotalo 07:23, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I've been a member of the Wiki community for some time now, and I still can't figure out which type of English (e.g. International, British, U.S.) is considered standard for use in Wikipedia. I would guess that it should be the international version, but the article seems to suggest that International English is a term used by most of the world to refer to Commonwealth English (i.e. British). What is the standard?? I just can't figure it out. Let me know on my talk page. Thanks. Fuzzform 19:50, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I wonder how many people are aware that there is a Portal:Language now since the end of December. I only recently discovered it, and only one user, JonMoore, has been active at all in maintaining it. There is also a Portal:Linguistics, which is still very much under construction. IMO we don't need both; Portal:Language can serve as a portal to linguistics as well. Angr/ talk 10:17, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
I have requested that the new British language (Celtic) article be merged into the Welsh language article. Contribute at Talk:Welsh language. -- Mais oui! 11:02, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
As an anonymous editor rightfully noted on Talk:Sound symbolism, 'this article is a mess (see further discussion there). I have remedied the most egregious errors, but the subject is worth a well-referenced and well-written article and for that, I thought, we have to turn to Wikiproject Languages. If you feel like diving into the literature on phonosemantics, phonaesthemes, ideophony, Japanese phenomimes and psychomimes and sound symbolism, it's all there waiting for you! — mark ✎ 19:37, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I've tagged the list in Mutually intelligible languages as containing potential original research. Could someone please point to some reliable references dealing with this subject? Zeneize 20:55, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
At the moment, some articles have (disputed) in the classification section of their infobox, e.g. Chechen, Japanese. If we're going to be putting such families in the infobox ( Template talk:Infobox language says we shouldn't), I think it would be a good idea to make it clearer that there's a lack of concensus in the linguistic community—at the moment it looks like it's referring to a Wikipedian's dispute à la Template:Disputed. -- Ptcamn 12:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Just looking for some advice on the use of the IPA and unicode templates. At Hausa language#Writing system someone has just removed the IPA template from /r/ and added it to the orthographic letters Ɓɓ, Ɗɗ, Ƙƙ and Ƴƴ. I believe I've read that the IPA template should be used for all IPA characters, including basic ASCII ones, to give a standard appearance. (Can anyone point to a reference for that, please? I can't now find it.) Should it be used for the orthographic characters or not? Should the unicode template be used for those instead? Should the unicode template in fact be used for everything which isn't basic ASCII and isn't IPA, or only for certain things? Thanks for any advice. Gailtb 09:14, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure that English isn't the only language whose grammar can fill an entire textbook, so why not build on and expand the articles on the grammars of other languages? I've noticed that many of them have only one page for their entire grammars. Foxjwill 00:54, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
The decision to subsume all Arabic languages and dialects under " varieties of Arabic" was IMO inadequate and inappropriate. Far from being clear, the distinction in some countries is regularly debated. See Egyptian Arabic and Talk:Egyptian Arabic as an example. Also, two varieties of Arabic, Maltese and Hassaniya, are officially recognized languages, therefore one article would not capture such nuances. Most Arabic vernacular articles that exist are in pretty bad shape and could actually use to be converted into professionally written linguistics-articles. The rest are either stubs ( Iraqi Arabic is shocking, IMO, considering the current events) or they don't exist at all ( Syrian Arabic)! I have broken down the list into the major branches of Arabic and included articles that have more substantial writing. — Zerida 07:54, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I want to clarify that the issue does not concern any one particular language, nor simply the NPOV-ness of the articles. As I mentioned before, there are articles that need inclusion because they don't exist or need substantial expansion. Varieties of Arabic, while excellent comparative linguistics, is not the solution. As to whether it concerns the project, I suppose it was made a project issue when the topic of Arabic languages/dialects was included under "Pages awaiting conversion to the template". Initially, they were broken down into each separate language until a decision was made that, in a nutshell, the issue was "too controversial" and the break-down was replaced with varieties of Arabic (discussion is in the archives.) This is what I disagree with. A project like this is in fact perfect for a linguistic topic that clearly gets little attention on Wikipedia. — Zerida 06:59, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I didn't know if anyone here wanted to, but it would be nice to get some help for this portal, maintaining and such. Right now I just used previous featured content for the Language and topic of the month. Also, it would be nice to get some input on whether the incomplete Portal:Linguistics should be merged into it, maybe Portal:Language and linguistics? Please let me know. Jon Moore 18:12, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
maybe have a look at Category:Redirects from ISO 639. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 11:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
This grouping does not agree with Richard Strand Nuristani classification:
Which one is now correct? I think ethnologue.com is a good idea / website, but they make also errors. -- lorn10 16:11 20. June 2006 (CEST)
The time is running, if nobody says a clear logical fact / argument against the better organization from Richard Strand, I will overtake his systematic. This means, that the actual “Kamviri” and “Kata” (Kati) language would be summarized to “Kamkataviri” language. --
lorn10 11:54, 29. June 2006 (CEST)
he has kamviri and katavari. if Kati is katavari then don't merge. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 21:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Richard Strand's classification has only 5 main Nuristani language groups, if you look on his page, there are only 2 northern groups, kâmk'ata-viri (Kamviri, Kati) & vâsi-vari (Prasuni). Ethnologue uses 6 main and 3 northern Nuristani Groups:
At second, Richard Strand uses the much clearer and logical native language names, not the legacy descriptions from 1890. -- lorn10 21:06, 30. June 2006 (CEST)
The migration to the new language names is now finished. -- lorn10 12:35, 8. Juli 2006 (CEST)
I've added a guideline to the language template on naming language histories because of the somewhat odd tendency to give these articles the much bulkier name format "History of XXX language" rather than the more compact "History of XXX." The use of the former is especially superfluous when applied to articles like history of Latin and Esperanto.
Peter Isotalo 15:46, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
There's a dispute going on at Talk:General American about a paragraph asserting (without any sources to back it up) a connection between German Americans and the General American accent. It's turning into a revert war; outside opinions are welcome. User:Angr 14:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Vulgar Latin is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy 20:36, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Scripts can be coded with ISO 15924. To avoid confusion with ISO 639-3 language codes I also suggested to move some stuff in WP, "User cyr" to "User Cyrl":
On script articles the code maybe could be included as is the lang code on lang articles. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 11:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Although I can't help regularly, I made a few suggestions for the section "Did you know?" at Portal:Language/Did you know/Nominate. If you agree, I can update that part of the portal. Ι have created and I am looking after the Portal:Language of the greek wikipedia (under the username "Valentin"). -- Michkalas 16:35, 30 August 2006 (UTC) [Better to answer to the talkpage of the portal and let me know by leaving a message to my talkpage]
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Hi, I'm a member of the Wikipedia:Version_1.0_Editorial_Team, which is looking to identify quality articles in Wikipedia for future publication on CD or paper. We recently began assessing using these criteria, and we are looking for A-Class and good B-Class articles, with no POV or copyright problems. Can you recommend any artcles on languages? I don't know if you've had any FAs, but we're looking for those as well. Please post your suggestions here. Cheers!-- Shanel 02:47, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks!-- Shanel 22:51, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
The article on the
Albanian language is having a
peer review. This article is currently at
Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages#Pages using the template needing attention, so obviously something must be wrong with it. It has undergone vast improvement over the past few days. Please comment, so that we can know what to improve. Thank you.
Rex(
talk)
22:03, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
hi. after looking at the language map that uses these proposed colors, i have 2 suggestions concerning the current colors which i have also posted here: Image talk:Human Language Families Map (Wikipedia Colors .PNG#color. here they are:
thank you. – ishwar (speak) 09:34, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
ok. so, i'll switch them until someone objects.
i'll looking into switching Nadene with Native American. – ishwar (speak) 03:51, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
I've been persuaded to use {{{familycolor}}} instead of introducing a new parameter. If you think that by typing |familycolor=gold in a {{ language}} call makes it gold, you'd be wrong. It does actually turn out as gold, but it refers the call to the central array: {{ language/familycolor}}. If you set |familycolor=brown, it'll turn out white now! The advantage of the array are:
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
See also | Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages |
---|
The little quilt is at {{ language/quilt}}. If you look at the source text, you'll see that it's set to auto-update to changes made in the arrays. This syntax could be used in other places that use these colours (like maps), so that they auto-update to changes in the array. -- Gareth Hughes 13:31, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Great work on the familycolor array. I was going to suggest a mechanism to allow specifying logical (rather than physical) colours in the language template, but you've beaten me to it (and your mechanism is better than the one I was going to suggest). Martin.Budden 13:33, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the large number of articles on dialects of English in which there are either no sources cited or only unscientific sources cited, or which seem to be written entirely based on original research (specifically, people with no linguistic training writing amateurishly and largely in stereotypes about the way they notice people talking around them). Some of the worst offenders are:
Some of these just need a little work on them to bring them up to snuff; others are probably AFD-worthy. Any suggestions on what we can do with all of these? -- User:Angr/ talk 18:21, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I've re-written Hayna Valley English based on data from PEAS and ANAE, though a lot is still unsourced. I've also tried to improve the encyclopedic tone of the article. Take a look and let me know what you think. -- Angr ( t· c) 07:09, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
I've been writing a lot of infoboxes for languages but I still don't understand one thing: What exactly are regions? Are they meant to be geographical like Western Europe or administrative like Quebec? Aleksei 06:02, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
an easy look up for the "iso3" variable in the template is http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/codes.asp?order=name&name=name&letter=n
change the last letter in this url to what you need.
ISO 639-3 has codes for macrolanguages see for example http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=ara click on 'scope: "macrolanguage"' to learn more.
So for Arabic language instead of offering 30 codes in the template it could be considered to use the macro-code. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 12:49, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Right now there is a vote to move Hindi to Hindi language. Some of us should get involved in the discussion and voting at Talk:Hindi. — Tox 00:03, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I wonder if you could take a look at Proto-Euphratean. It has some style problems, but most importantly, it sounds too speculative and has no sources. I've already tagged it as unreferenced. Searching for "Proto-Euphratean" in the web gives me very few links, mostly directing to email conversations in specialized email lists, and some obscure personal pages. It sounds like a fringe theory to me. -- Pablo D. Flores ( Talk) 10:42, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
What should we do with Hmong-Mien languages? I think only Iu Mien has the infobox at the moment, and it's using familycolor=Hmong-Mien, which renders as white. Should we have an extra colour for these languages, or should we use familycolor=Sino-Tibetan? The latter choice doesn't have to display that language family: it just gives the box the same colour as that used for those langauges. -- Gareth Hughes 21:54, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
The language template has to go through some changes to comply to WP:AUM. There is no clear way to do this. Netoholic has developed template:Infobox Language independantly and tried to add it to articles without discussion anywhere. There have been complaints that his template does not work and looks ugly. I am fed up with telling this guy that his approach is not wanted. Can we use this page to build a clear, quotable consensus against this approach? -- Gareth Hughes 03:29, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Bottom line. The current Template:language template is a convoluted meta-template and needs to be changed under the meta-templates policy. I have reduced the problem slightly by changing the way Template:Language/familycolor works (though I initially missed updating a few calls to it on talk pages - sorry) and there are other ways in which it's reliance on meta-templates could be reduced. However, I believe it would actually be easier to update the version Netoholic created to include the same functionality as the current version with NO meta-templates involved. Netoholic has reverted my changes in this regard, but examples can be seen at User:CBDunkerson/Sandbox2. I've only tested the new template with three examples there (boxes on the left are new template / on the right are current template) so many additional tweaks will likely be required, but I think it demonstrates that a single template (no forks) can still cover all the languages and make use of the color coding system. -- CBD ☎ ✉ 13:14, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Does the term actually exist? When I merged postposition and preposition into adposition, I ignored the entry circumposition, which gave a bad example in German and one I couldn't verify in Pushtu. Ruakh has brought to my attention an example of a putative circumposition in Kurdish, but it is questioned by reviewers. Should "circumposition" be mentioned at all, or is it just part of a a bad analysis. Please weigh in with any sources, info or suggestions at talk:adposition.
Peter Isotalo 09:03, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
The Template:Infobox Language I presented does work in that it displays all of the information that it should. The color is so engrained in the meta-template (in that the familycolor parameter is matched to a color) that there is simply no way to support that, in a reasonable way, in the new template. It comes down to the article level where, if you look at any language article, there is no "color" parameter. There is only "familycolor" which for most articles has the main language family, not the name of a color. There are only two solutions that come to mind - individual templates for each family (ugh, bad idea) or to hit every article and take familycolor and split that into "family" and a matching "color". That's the technical side of the reasoning.
On my view of the practical side, neither solution is appropriate and we should just use one template for spoken languages with one single color choice throughout. Using the family & color approach doesn't guarantee consistency because a drive-by author could change the color to anything they might like. The color also does not provide any "new" information. Would an average reader even realize what the colors meant or that they related to anything in particular? Would their first thought be that it relates to the Family or something else, like the "spoken in:" or "region"? Would an average reader see limegreen and know immediately that it's an Indo-European language? Can any of you even recite the various color-family relationships without looking?
On a more policy-driven side, the choice of which colors match to which language family is entirely our (Wikipedia's) creation. These colors are not official, but we've designed a complex structure around them. I'm sure in your circles that linguists dispute language families, but at least we can cite a source for using what we do in the genetic classification. We can't do the same for the colors, so on an article like Chuvash language, we really are taking a side in the dispute by so prominently displaying that color.
The genetic classification gives the language family already. The technical, practical, and other concerns about color make implementing that without meta-templates very hard/impossible/impractical, at least for now. I want to work with your group on getting beyond the meta-templates, but it can't happen right now with the colors. Maybe in the future, but we shouldn't wait. -- Netoholic @ 16:15, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Many of the difficulties around converting Template:Language into something manageable, but that doesn't use nested meta-templates, is that its function has to cover constructed languages. Your group has established specific row headings and content for conlangs. I'd like to propose that all of the contructed language be moved to this new template, because it is lighter and can be changed without impacting the spoken languages. Maintaining a consistent look between the templates should not be difficult, and in fact, splitting the signed languages into their own template would reap the same benefits. Please take a look at the example here and on Fasile perm link, and provide any feedback/requests on Template talk:Infobox Conlang. -- Netoholic @ 07:15, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
(moved from
Template talk:Language)
BTW, as can be seen at Template talk:Language/newdraft, the alternate non-meta draft of this template now handles natural spoken, signed, and constructed languages. Both the template call and results are very close (and in many cases identical) to the current template. There are still details to iron out here and there (e.g. how to handle template:Language/genetic and sign-languages without a specified genetic origin), but it is in pretty close to 'finished' form. -- CBD ☎ ✉ 01:37, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I imagine that template:Infobox Sign language will be new to you: that is, of course, because Netoholic decided to impose his own template once more. Same story... -- Gareth Hughes 23:24, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I am happy to announce the following polls:
As I'm not looking forward to the next time Netoholic decides to spread these all over the article space, I thought we might as well vote them out of use. -- Gareth Hughes 14:42, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I just learned about a CSS hack being added to a number of templates, including template:Infobox Language, to compensate for a changed policy on template transclusion. I understand that there is an alternative way of recoding these templates ("weeble method"), but the CSS hack is being implemented because it is slightly easier for editors. This hack injects junk code into the body of the page, then hides it from most visual browsers using CSS. This is already in use in several templates, and is being added to many more.
This makes Wikipedia less accessible for users of assistive technologies, like web page readers for the handicapped, and text readers. This is sloppy programming and bad practice from the point of view of web page accessibility, web page usability, and standards implementation. Wikipedia is an open encyclopedia; please lets not start treating the minority who has the most difficult time reading like second-class citizens. Main discussion on this is at Wikipedia talk:No meta-templates. Please make your opinion heard there. — Michael Z. 2006-01-16 19:02 Z
EVERYONE - in order to quash this
ForestFire, please follow-up discussion at
MediaWiki talk:Common.css#CSS hack reduces accessibility. --
Netoholic
@
19:15, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
It has been mentioned before (by Angr or Mark Dingemanse) that we might think about using Linguasphere codes in language articles. The codes provide a more coherent classification system than that used by Ethnologue, but the latter have become more mainstream by their inclusion in the draft of ISO 639-3. The major drawback with Linguasphere codes is that they look like nonsense (e.g. Turoyo is 12-AAA-ae) unless you take time to learn how the system works (it's a bit like a library classification scheme). I've started referencing PDFs of the codes at user:garzo/lala#Linguasphere codes. If they are used, they probably should have a link to an explanation of how they work. They could either be included in the infobox or somewhere appropriate in the article. -- Gareth Hughes 21:57, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Are we ready for an infobox for language families and groupings? I've seen a few places where template:language has been suggested for a group of languages, and one place ( Gallo-Italic) where it is used. Obviously, in spite of the difficulty in distinguishing a language with many prominent dialects from a group of related languages, the infobox we have is designed for a relatively unique variety or homogeneous group of varieties. I propose a new infobox designed for classificatory groups of languages. Some of the Austronesian language groups have something a little like this already. I propose that we colour code it to match the language articles (i.e. use template:language/familycolor). I propose that we keep it simple and small: the main focus would be the genetic descent from larger groups, followed by immediate divisions of that group. The only other information I would propose would be geographical distribution and number of speakers of languages in that group (or information on the extinction of the group). Any thoughts? -- Gareth Hughes 17:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Tobias Conradi (Talk) 05:35, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I've just been using simple pink boxes at Continental Celtic languages, Insular Celtic languages, Goidelic languages, and Brythonic languages. I lifted them from North Germanic languages, East Germanic languages, and West Germanic languages. Angr/ talk 13:30, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Why doen't we use the same infobox as for languages? it has signers, constructed langs and it can have groupings/families too. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 00:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The languages have the iso codes. why can't the families not use the Linguasphere codes? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 00:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Some minimal instructions are up on the talk page, and a few editors seem to be using it (or is it just Mark, Angr and me?). Do you think we should place it at the top of articles as we do with Infobox Language? If so, do we want to have the option of strapping a map to the bottom of it too? I realise that, when we get to the top of the tree of language families, the infobox will default to printing the name of language family twice in bold. The way to get around this is by using the back-up {{{family}}} parameter. You could use a text something like "one of the world's major language families; although links with other families have been proposed, none of these has received mainstream acceptance". -- Gareth Hughes 14:20, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
That would be great. Such as French Alphabet/Latin or Gothic Language Alphabet/Gothic, Arabic, etc, etc... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infobox#Languages Ksenon 05:41, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Writing systems | {{{script}}} |
-- Gareth Hughes 14:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
If an ancient language of one country (Lets say Country A) is not spoken now anywhere, not even in that specific country?? Do you think that language must be included in the Category:Languages of "Country A"? I will apreciate a lot any answer to me in my talk page, especially to those who belong to the Languages Wikiproject. User:KRBN 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Currently, there are two language articles up for peer review: Nobiin language ( request) and Welsh language ( request). While Welsh did get some reviews, Nobiin I think suffers a bit from its relative obscurity (although it's not much smaller than Welsh in number of speakers). If you have the time, please consider reviewing! — mark ✎ 09:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Mandarin (linguistics) has been nominated for removal as an FA and has so far one vote in favor of doing just so. I was the one who pointed out the discrepancy between its FA status and the actual quality, but I think this can be fixed rather easily. Please help out in any way you can if any of you feel up to it.
Peter Isotalo 07:23, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I've been a member of the Wiki community for some time now, and I still can't figure out which type of English (e.g. International, British, U.S.) is considered standard for use in Wikipedia. I would guess that it should be the international version, but the article seems to suggest that International English is a term used by most of the world to refer to Commonwealth English (i.e. British). What is the standard?? I just can't figure it out. Let me know on my talk page. Thanks. Fuzzform 19:50, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I wonder how many people are aware that there is a Portal:Language now since the end of December. I only recently discovered it, and only one user, JonMoore, has been active at all in maintaining it. There is also a Portal:Linguistics, which is still very much under construction. IMO we don't need both; Portal:Language can serve as a portal to linguistics as well. Angr/ talk 10:17, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
I have requested that the new British language (Celtic) article be merged into the Welsh language article. Contribute at Talk:Welsh language. -- Mais oui! 11:02, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
As an anonymous editor rightfully noted on Talk:Sound symbolism, 'this article is a mess (see further discussion there). I have remedied the most egregious errors, but the subject is worth a well-referenced and well-written article and for that, I thought, we have to turn to Wikiproject Languages. If you feel like diving into the literature on phonosemantics, phonaesthemes, ideophony, Japanese phenomimes and psychomimes and sound symbolism, it's all there waiting for you! — mark ✎ 19:37, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I've tagged the list in Mutually intelligible languages as containing potential original research. Could someone please point to some reliable references dealing with this subject? Zeneize 20:55, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
At the moment, some articles have (disputed) in the classification section of their infobox, e.g. Chechen, Japanese. If we're going to be putting such families in the infobox ( Template talk:Infobox language says we shouldn't), I think it would be a good idea to make it clearer that there's a lack of concensus in the linguistic community—at the moment it looks like it's referring to a Wikipedian's dispute à la Template:Disputed. -- Ptcamn 12:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Just looking for some advice on the use of the IPA and unicode templates. At Hausa language#Writing system someone has just removed the IPA template from /r/ and added it to the orthographic letters Ɓɓ, Ɗɗ, Ƙƙ and Ƴƴ. I believe I've read that the IPA template should be used for all IPA characters, including basic ASCII ones, to give a standard appearance. (Can anyone point to a reference for that, please? I can't now find it.) Should it be used for the orthographic characters or not? Should the unicode template be used for those instead? Should the unicode template in fact be used for everything which isn't basic ASCII and isn't IPA, or only for certain things? Thanks for any advice. Gailtb 09:14, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure that English isn't the only language whose grammar can fill an entire textbook, so why not build on and expand the articles on the grammars of other languages? I've noticed that many of them have only one page for their entire grammars. Foxjwill 00:54, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
The decision to subsume all Arabic languages and dialects under " varieties of Arabic" was IMO inadequate and inappropriate. Far from being clear, the distinction in some countries is regularly debated. See Egyptian Arabic and Talk:Egyptian Arabic as an example. Also, two varieties of Arabic, Maltese and Hassaniya, are officially recognized languages, therefore one article would not capture such nuances. Most Arabic vernacular articles that exist are in pretty bad shape and could actually use to be converted into professionally written linguistics-articles. The rest are either stubs ( Iraqi Arabic is shocking, IMO, considering the current events) or they don't exist at all ( Syrian Arabic)! I have broken down the list into the major branches of Arabic and included articles that have more substantial writing. — Zerida 07:54, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I want to clarify that the issue does not concern any one particular language, nor simply the NPOV-ness of the articles. As I mentioned before, there are articles that need inclusion because they don't exist or need substantial expansion. Varieties of Arabic, while excellent comparative linguistics, is not the solution. As to whether it concerns the project, I suppose it was made a project issue when the topic of Arabic languages/dialects was included under "Pages awaiting conversion to the template". Initially, they were broken down into each separate language until a decision was made that, in a nutshell, the issue was "too controversial" and the break-down was replaced with varieties of Arabic (discussion is in the archives.) This is what I disagree with. A project like this is in fact perfect for a linguistic topic that clearly gets little attention on Wikipedia. — Zerida 06:59, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I didn't know if anyone here wanted to, but it would be nice to get some help for this portal, maintaining and such. Right now I just used previous featured content for the Language and topic of the month. Also, it would be nice to get some input on whether the incomplete Portal:Linguistics should be merged into it, maybe Portal:Language and linguistics? Please let me know. Jon Moore 18:12, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
maybe have a look at Category:Redirects from ISO 639. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 11:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
This grouping does not agree with Richard Strand Nuristani classification:
Which one is now correct? I think ethnologue.com is a good idea / website, but they make also errors. -- lorn10 16:11 20. June 2006 (CEST)
The time is running, if nobody says a clear logical fact / argument against the better organization from Richard Strand, I will overtake his systematic. This means, that the actual “Kamviri” and “Kata” (Kati) language would be summarized to “Kamkataviri” language. --
lorn10 11:54, 29. June 2006 (CEST)
he has kamviri and katavari. if Kati is katavari then don't merge. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 21:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Richard Strand's classification has only 5 main Nuristani language groups, if you look on his page, there are only 2 northern groups, kâmk'ata-viri (Kamviri, Kati) & vâsi-vari (Prasuni). Ethnologue uses 6 main and 3 northern Nuristani Groups:
At second, Richard Strand uses the much clearer and logical native language names, not the legacy descriptions from 1890. -- lorn10 21:06, 30. June 2006 (CEST)
The migration to the new language names is now finished. -- lorn10 12:35, 8. Juli 2006 (CEST)
I've added a guideline to the language template on naming language histories because of the somewhat odd tendency to give these articles the much bulkier name format "History of XXX language" rather than the more compact "History of XXX." The use of the former is especially superfluous when applied to articles like history of Latin and Esperanto.
Peter Isotalo 15:46, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
There's a dispute going on at Talk:General American about a paragraph asserting (without any sources to back it up) a connection between German Americans and the General American accent. It's turning into a revert war; outside opinions are welcome. User:Angr 14:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Vulgar Latin is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy 20:36, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Scripts can be coded with ISO 15924. To avoid confusion with ISO 639-3 language codes I also suggested to move some stuff in WP, "User cyr" to "User Cyrl":
On script articles the code maybe could be included as is the lang code on lang articles. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 11:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Although I can't help regularly, I made a few suggestions for the section "Did you know?" at Portal:Language/Did you know/Nominate. If you agree, I can update that part of the portal. Ι have created and I am looking after the Portal:Language of the greek wikipedia (under the username "Valentin"). -- Michkalas 16:35, 30 August 2006 (UTC) [Better to answer to the talkpage of the portal and let me know by leaving a message to my talkpage]