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I've expanded the guidance on sources - identifying some sources that are standard in biblical research and adding some information about modern trends in biblical criticism. The material needs citations but I've got a wiki backlog and its going to take time for me to get around to preparing proper footnotes. I thought it was important though to add them even sans citations since they largely support what should be a truism from 4th grade on - don't write an essay relying on a single source.
I also think my writing is a bit wordy and complex. I'd be grateful if someone wanted to copy edit what I've written. Egfrank 06:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
There seem to be a number of places where editors have used the phrase "reliable Torah sources". In some cases, it seems simply to be an attempt to define "what's Jewish". No one would object to a more neutral definition using secular terminology. In other cases, I wonder if the author really wants Wikipedia to focus on "the Truth" and wants to protect the reader from being mislead.
In this case I replaced the phrase because I think the editor meant the former. However, I think there is a larger issue here that needs to be addressed. Torah and Wikipedia reliability standards are not necessarily synonymous. Torah standards of reliability have as much to do with the goal of study ( mitzvot, yirat hashem, ahavat Israel, tikkun olam, etc) as they do the content of study. As a (former) Hebrew school teacher, I would not want to use up some of my precious classroom time discussing every single view point that Wikipedia (or even the academic world) considers relevant. I would choose to focus on those that deepened my students understanding of Torah and their obligations as and joy in being Jews. I don't think I am alone in this.
I realize it is easy to confuse the goals of Torah and the goals of Wikipedia. It is impossible to ignore the thought that Wikipedia is the likely first stop for an uneducated Jew wishing to learn more about their Judaism. But Wikipedia isn't designed as a kiruv tool, it is an encyclopedia. There are many fine kiruv tools out there - let's let them do their job and lets focus on ours. Egfrank 07:06, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
From the
User_talk:egfrank page:
Hi! I appreciate your efforts on the Manual of Style but beg to disagree with you on one issue. You recently made a change from a reference to all sources reflecting the "Torah" viewpoint (admittedly rather badly worded) to a reference to medieval commentators. My personal view has been that reliability of a source is determined within a field of expertise. Orthodox Judaism regards itself as a field of expertise and, whether or not one agrees with its outcomes, it has a self-correcting peer review process for determining which individuals are considered experts and which viewpoints are considered notable and acceptable within that community. Accordingly, the community's position has always been that sources that have been published and are considered reliable within the "Torah community" are reliable for Wikipedia purposes because they reliably articulate a notable viewpoint and have been vetted by experts in that viewpoint. This has been the position of all administrators from the Orthodox community and has historically been the position of the Judaism WikiProject. Although the statement of this position could be better and more neutrally worded, I don't recommend unilaterally departing from it without discussion. I particularly disagree with changing to a reference to "medieval commentators". It's vitally important for this community to have the ability to explain its contemporary situation and offer contemporary viewpoints, and we have to have the ability to have the sources generally used to articulate notable contemporary viewpoints considered reliable for Wikipedia purposes. Wikipedia guidelines provide some flexibility to support this; for example, the fine print in the verifiability and reliable sources say that it's OK to quote a self-published work (such as a letter from a figure like Moshe Feinstein or the website of a well-known Yeshiva) if the author has been determined to be a notable expert in the field through published sources. Part of my job in dealing with the general Wikipedia community has been to advocate for the need for this leeway continuing and to explain the special sourcing problems of religious topics and editors. I also don't believe that undercutting the ability of the Orthodox community to have its sources for articulating its contemporary positions considered reliable creates any general advantage for the purposes of the Encyclopedia or benefits anyone else. Once again, doubtless this special need of the Orthodox community could be articulated in better and more neutral language that more closely tracks existing flexibility in the guidelines. Best, -- Shirahadasha 13:38, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
added it to a couple of places but maybe too prominently. perhaps it should just be included in the list of medieval commentaries? I hope others will figure ou the best thing to do, Slrubenstein | Talk 16:42, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi there. Some articles on Jewish matters use "G-d" rather than "God". Obviously that's correct in quoted material, but otherwise, I feel this violates WP:NOTCENSORED. The G-d article-section would suggest it does. Any comments? Regards, jnestorius( talk) 18:23, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This idea is in the
brainstorming stage. Feel free to add new ideas; improve, clarify and classify the ideas already here; and discuss the merits of these ideas. |
As I, an outsider, see things, there are basically only a few types of biographies to be considered:
Ultimately, my own favored solution to this matter would be to create one parent project which encompasses within its scope the scope of all the related more focused projects, have the more focused groups determine their scope, and allocate accordingly. John Carter ( talk) 20:07, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Judaism#Capitalization_of_messiah —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mzk1 ( talk • contribs) 15:33, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
I am disputing the Gregorian calendar dates section that cites WP:NPOV to support the idea that BCE/CE should be used in articles related to Judaism. Firstly, this isn't very specific, because many articles that could be considered related to Judaism are also related to other Abrahamic religions (i.e. Christianity), and I'd also like to hear a good argument as to why BCE/CE is more "neutral point of view" than BC/AD in the first place.
I see these two notations as directly comparable to the pagan days of the week and the Quakers' "neutralized" alternatives. While the pagans' Wednesday is based on the religious deity Odin and the Quaker alternative of "Fourth Day" is arguably more "neutral", we still do not use the latter because it is not notable enough, and because we do not even consider Wednesday to be POV because it is a commonality in the English language. I think BC/AD should be treated the same, and that BCE/CE are just as biased, because they claim that the Christian/western-centric Gregorian calendar and era based on Jesus' birth should be considered "common" to all people on Earth, regardless of the fact that there are dozens of other calendars and epochs to choose from. If that's not biased POV, I don't know what is.
Thoughts? I know the BCE bit was added by one mere user in 2007 without any prior discussion, but it has now influenced the MOS ( WP:ERA) and I'd like to see it removed here so the bit added to the MOS can also be removed. I'd like to have some discussion on it before just boldly removing it. — CIS ( talk | stalk) 08:36, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
I have added WP:EN, a little concerned that the Manual of Style as it stands is actally counter general Wikipedia guidelines. Also other sections appear to need a review in regard to whether the Manual promotes CONTENTFORKS vs other Abrahamic religions, which is okay, or tends to POVFORKS? But it's mainly WP:EN which was missing In ictu oculi ( talk) 05:57, 7 November 2011 (UTC) .
The policy on the usage of "Yahweh", "G-d" and "Jeho-va" etc. is not very consistent in my opinion. Reading one of the only other religious manual of style, the one on Islam, we read:
""Allah" should be replaced with its translation, "God", unless used as part of an English-language quote. Also, the first occurrence of "God" in the article should be something to the effect of the following: God. When referencing a deity by a personal pronoun (e.g. "he" or "his"), the pronoun should not be capitalized except as demanded by standard grammar (i.e. in the beginning of a sentence, but not in the middle of one). Refer to the Manual of Style's section on capital letters."
Currently it seems like we have some double standards here - Islam articles mustn't have "Allah" (except in quotes) whilst Judeo-Christian articles use "Yahweh" or names of God with letters missing, which may I add is done for religious reasons (respect) similar to the Muslim honorifics AS, SA etc. that they give to their prophets.
So my opinion is we should adopt the same policy as MOS: Islam, i.e. we must use the word "God" without missing letters and without using "Yahweh" etc. unless the page is about that name of God or unless it is used as part of a quote. I see no reason to uphold these different standards - in my opinion the usage of both Islamic honorifics and Jewish literary jurisprudence has no place on Wikipedia (again, outside pages on those topics, or quotes) as they connote non-neutrality. Hesnotblack ( talk) 09:19, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=User:Shirahadasha
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).
![]() | Judaism Project‑class | ||||||
|
I've expanded the guidance on sources - identifying some sources that are standard in biblical research and adding some information about modern trends in biblical criticism. The material needs citations but I've got a wiki backlog and its going to take time for me to get around to preparing proper footnotes. I thought it was important though to add them even sans citations since they largely support what should be a truism from 4th grade on - don't write an essay relying on a single source.
I also think my writing is a bit wordy and complex. I'd be grateful if someone wanted to copy edit what I've written. Egfrank 06:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
There seem to be a number of places where editors have used the phrase "reliable Torah sources". In some cases, it seems simply to be an attempt to define "what's Jewish". No one would object to a more neutral definition using secular terminology. In other cases, I wonder if the author really wants Wikipedia to focus on "the Truth" and wants to protect the reader from being mislead.
In this case I replaced the phrase because I think the editor meant the former. However, I think there is a larger issue here that needs to be addressed. Torah and Wikipedia reliability standards are not necessarily synonymous. Torah standards of reliability have as much to do with the goal of study ( mitzvot, yirat hashem, ahavat Israel, tikkun olam, etc) as they do the content of study. As a (former) Hebrew school teacher, I would not want to use up some of my precious classroom time discussing every single view point that Wikipedia (or even the academic world) considers relevant. I would choose to focus on those that deepened my students understanding of Torah and their obligations as and joy in being Jews. I don't think I am alone in this.
I realize it is easy to confuse the goals of Torah and the goals of Wikipedia. It is impossible to ignore the thought that Wikipedia is the likely first stop for an uneducated Jew wishing to learn more about their Judaism. But Wikipedia isn't designed as a kiruv tool, it is an encyclopedia. There are many fine kiruv tools out there - let's let them do their job and lets focus on ours. Egfrank 07:06, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
From the
User_talk:egfrank page:
Hi! I appreciate your efforts on the Manual of Style but beg to disagree with you on one issue. You recently made a change from a reference to all sources reflecting the "Torah" viewpoint (admittedly rather badly worded) to a reference to medieval commentators. My personal view has been that reliability of a source is determined within a field of expertise. Orthodox Judaism regards itself as a field of expertise and, whether or not one agrees with its outcomes, it has a self-correcting peer review process for determining which individuals are considered experts and which viewpoints are considered notable and acceptable within that community. Accordingly, the community's position has always been that sources that have been published and are considered reliable within the "Torah community" are reliable for Wikipedia purposes because they reliably articulate a notable viewpoint and have been vetted by experts in that viewpoint. This has been the position of all administrators from the Orthodox community and has historically been the position of the Judaism WikiProject. Although the statement of this position could be better and more neutrally worded, I don't recommend unilaterally departing from it without discussion. I particularly disagree with changing to a reference to "medieval commentators". It's vitally important for this community to have the ability to explain its contemporary situation and offer contemporary viewpoints, and we have to have the ability to have the sources generally used to articulate notable contemporary viewpoints considered reliable for Wikipedia purposes. Wikipedia guidelines provide some flexibility to support this; for example, the fine print in the verifiability and reliable sources say that it's OK to quote a self-published work (such as a letter from a figure like Moshe Feinstein or the website of a well-known Yeshiva) if the author has been determined to be a notable expert in the field through published sources. Part of my job in dealing with the general Wikipedia community has been to advocate for the need for this leeway continuing and to explain the special sourcing problems of religious topics and editors. I also don't believe that undercutting the ability of the Orthodox community to have its sources for articulating its contemporary positions considered reliable creates any general advantage for the purposes of the Encyclopedia or benefits anyone else. Once again, doubtless this special need of the Orthodox community could be articulated in better and more neutral language that more closely tracks existing flexibility in the guidelines. Best, -- Shirahadasha 13:38, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
added it to a couple of places but maybe too prominently. perhaps it should just be included in the list of medieval commentaries? I hope others will figure ou the best thing to do, Slrubenstein | Talk 16:42, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi there. Some articles on Jewish matters use "G-d" rather than "God". Obviously that's correct in quoted material, but otherwise, I feel this violates WP:NOTCENSORED. The G-d article-section would suggest it does. Any comments? Regards, jnestorius( talk) 18:23, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This idea is in the
brainstorming stage. Feel free to add new ideas; improve, clarify and classify the ideas already here; and discuss the merits of these ideas. |
As I, an outsider, see things, there are basically only a few types of biographies to be considered:
Ultimately, my own favored solution to this matter would be to create one parent project which encompasses within its scope the scope of all the related more focused projects, have the more focused groups determine their scope, and allocate accordingly. John Carter ( talk) 20:07, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Judaism#Capitalization_of_messiah —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mzk1 ( talk • contribs) 15:33, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
I am disputing the Gregorian calendar dates section that cites WP:NPOV to support the idea that BCE/CE should be used in articles related to Judaism. Firstly, this isn't very specific, because many articles that could be considered related to Judaism are also related to other Abrahamic religions (i.e. Christianity), and I'd also like to hear a good argument as to why BCE/CE is more "neutral point of view" than BC/AD in the first place.
I see these two notations as directly comparable to the pagan days of the week and the Quakers' "neutralized" alternatives. While the pagans' Wednesday is based on the religious deity Odin and the Quaker alternative of "Fourth Day" is arguably more "neutral", we still do not use the latter because it is not notable enough, and because we do not even consider Wednesday to be POV because it is a commonality in the English language. I think BC/AD should be treated the same, and that BCE/CE are just as biased, because they claim that the Christian/western-centric Gregorian calendar and era based on Jesus' birth should be considered "common" to all people on Earth, regardless of the fact that there are dozens of other calendars and epochs to choose from. If that's not biased POV, I don't know what is.
Thoughts? I know the BCE bit was added by one mere user in 2007 without any prior discussion, but it has now influenced the MOS ( WP:ERA) and I'd like to see it removed here so the bit added to the MOS can also be removed. I'd like to have some discussion on it before just boldly removing it. — CIS ( talk | stalk) 08:36, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
I have added WP:EN, a little concerned that the Manual of Style as it stands is actally counter general Wikipedia guidelines. Also other sections appear to need a review in regard to whether the Manual promotes CONTENTFORKS vs other Abrahamic religions, which is okay, or tends to POVFORKS? But it's mainly WP:EN which was missing In ictu oculi ( talk) 05:57, 7 November 2011 (UTC) .
The policy on the usage of "Yahweh", "G-d" and "Jeho-va" etc. is not very consistent in my opinion. Reading one of the only other religious manual of style, the one on Islam, we read:
""Allah" should be replaced with its translation, "God", unless used as part of an English-language quote. Also, the first occurrence of "God" in the article should be something to the effect of the following: God. When referencing a deity by a personal pronoun (e.g. "he" or "his"), the pronoun should not be capitalized except as demanded by standard grammar (i.e. in the beginning of a sentence, but not in the middle of one). Refer to the Manual of Style's section on capital letters."
Currently it seems like we have some double standards here - Islam articles mustn't have "Allah" (except in quotes) whilst Judeo-Christian articles use "Yahweh" or names of God with letters missing, which may I add is done for religious reasons (respect) similar to the Muslim honorifics AS, SA etc. that they give to their prophets.
So my opinion is we should adopt the same policy as MOS: Islam, i.e. we must use the word "God" without missing letters and without using "Yahweh" etc. unless the page is about that name of God or unless it is used as part of a quote. I see no reason to uphold these different standards - in my opinion the usage of both Islamic honorifics and Jewish literary jurisprudence has no place on Wikipedia (again, outside pages on those topics, or quotes) as they connote non-neutrality. Hesnotblack ( talk) 09:19, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=User:Shirahadasha
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).