This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
The main page proclaims:
I don't see the bias. We are following NPOV rules in all of our articles. As long as we continue to do so, we will be fine. All of our articles may be seen as being biased towards Conservative and Modern Orthodox Judaism, due to the fact that the intellectual leaders of these movements have policies similar to NPOV rules. In contrast, most ultra-Orthodox Jews, (Hasidic and Non-Hasidic) are virtulently anti-historical, and view all historical research as anti-Semitic and heretical. But that is always a complaint made by fundamentalists about all non-religious encyclopedias. Wikipedia has a long history of being attacked by fundamentalist Muslims as being biased against their interpretation of Islam; Wikipedia has a long history of being attacked by fundamentalist Jews as being biased against their interpretation of Judaism; and Wikipedia has a long history of being attacked by fundamentalist Christians as being biased against their interpretation of Christianity. What they offer instead is a total violation of NPOV methodology. Their objections merely prove that the historical survery, NPOV style of writing which we currently have in our articles is the correct one to have. RK 13:37, Jul 14, 2004 (UTC)
If the project branches out endlessly it will have more trouble defining its subject matter and will attract more edit warring that is warranted. The secret of keeping this project succesful and viable is limiting its scope for the time being. JFW | T@lk
(See Category:Jewish texts)
(See Category:Rabbis)
(See Category:Jewish law and rituals)
(See Category:Jewish law and rituals)
(See Category:Jewish holy days)
(See Category:Jewish history)
(See Category:Mishnah and Category:Talmud)
(See Category:Torah and Category:Hebrew Bible/Tanakh
See:
I would like to make a radical suggestion related to the above two points, and to the next one. Every culture and religion on WP has its its literature discussed objectively and fairly (hopefully), but nevertheless merits articles presenting it as part of that culture. In the case of Judaism and Christianity, however, because the canon is partially shared, there is a great deal of conflict, implied bias, and a deep sense that a meaningful picture is hard to paint within some of the articles. This is especially true for the biblical books.
What was that Jewish news box that appeared in the Jews and Judaism article? How is it maintained? Who decides what goes in it? Jayjg 15:29, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Jewish News |
* Haaretz: Disengagement imminent! |
Hebrew Calendar |
August 6, 2005 - Rosh Chodesh Av - Beginning of The Nine Days of mourning |
August 14, 2005 - Tisha B'Av - Fast commemorating the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem |
Parsha |
Massei |
August 6, 2005 - 1 Av 5765 |
Devarim |
August 13, 2005 - 8 Av 5765 |
Va'etchanan |
August 13, 2005 - 15 Av 5765 |
Eikev |
August 27, 2005 - 22 Av 5765 |
Ezra Wax has taken it upon himself to insert this into many articles. On their own, many other Wikipedia editors removed it. I agree with the removal. Not that I am against having Jewish news, but it seems inappropriate to have Jewish news in all of our Judaism articles, Christian news in our Christianity articles, etc. We're an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. RK
On many articles Pronunciations are extremely, IMO, wacked up with "scientific" transliterations. Wikipedia is not the Scientific Weekly, or a Hardvard Research project. 90% of the people reading them would not have any clue as to what they were reason. For example, the Josiah page transliterates my name as "Yošiyyáhu" - why not keep it simple so everyone can understand it - "Yoshiyahu"?-- Josiah 02:36, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The Hebrew column in both parts of the dictionary is given in plene spelling, in accordance with the latest rules of the Hebrew Language Academy. All the relevant additional letters yod and vav have been inserted so that the user cann identify the word in the form in which he will encounter it in all modern books and newspapers. On the other hand the full and precise pointing has been aded (except for the silent sh'va) thus ensuring the precise pronunciation of each word.
I see mentioned "Israeli Sefardi transliteration" and "Artscroll quasi Ashkenazi transliteration" but I can't seem to find articles on Wikipedia about either of them? Where should I be looking? — Hippietrail 02:01, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The documentary hypothesis has nothing to do with Christianity; that is a strawman attack used by some Orthodox Jewish writers to delegitimize it within the traditional Jewish community. In fact, most Christians don't accept it at all. Similarly, the modern form of the documentary hypothesis, which has been developed over the last century, does not rely on the early and anti-Jewish ideas of Julius Wellhausen. That too is is a strawman attack used by a few Orthodox writers to delegitimize it within the traditional Jewish community. I don't know of a modern-day single adherent of Wellhausen's specific views. RK 00:25, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)
This is how it started, see: Higher Criticism and Radical Criticism: "Higher criticism originally referred to the practice of a group of German Biblical scholars centered in Tübingen, including Friedrich Schleiermacher (1768-1834), David Friedrich Strauss (1808-1874), and Ludwig Feuerbach (1804-1872), who began in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries to analyze the historical records of the Middle East from Christian and Old Testament times, in search of independent confirmation of the events related in the Bible. They are the intellectual descendants of John Locke, David Hume, Immanuel Kant, Gotthold Lessing, Gottlieb Fichte, Georg Hegel, and the French rationalists." On Wikipedia IZAK 05:22, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
What's with the "outright lie" business? All of them were Christian theologians, were steeped in the Christianity of their present day culture in Germany and had their roots in it. Otherwise why would they be so fanatically and "fundamentally" obsessed with the Bible of all things, they could have pursued hunting or something full time instead no? Why is it important to defend them, by checking on their level of Christain observance, when what they did is indefensible Judaicly speaking? You lack an understanding of how permeated with (the Christian) religion Western society was at that time. IZAK 05:58, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I realize now that it was probably unwise to do all the work to migrate the category name without discussing it, and for this I am sorry. I moved Category:Israel geography to Category:Israel-Palestine Geography when I noticed that many of the entries in the category were places in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. To me, it seemed like a clear-cut task of NPOVing it, and so I went to each article, one by one, and changed the geographical category from "Israel" to "Israel-Palestine", and then moved the category page itself. But now it's appearing that this term — in my experience commonly used in neutral context to refer to the geographical region of Israel and the Palestinian regions — is confusing some people who think that it's trying to imply that Israel-Palestine is a political enetity rather than a geographical one. To this blunder I attribute my autism and lack of theory of mind, things that often get me into trouble without ever seeing it. The only contention I ever predicted was IZAK, which I thought acceptable since he contests virtually everything. What really surprised me was contention from Nyh, with very reasonable arguments. And now...well, my act of rational centrist NPOV seems to have developed into a logistical fiasco, and I have only my shortcomings of consideration to blame. IZAK's category did need to be NPOVed, but I feel I may have made an error in trying to do so, though it seemed perfectly logical at the time. I'd like to request help and discussion in ways the category can be adequately NPOVed in respect to the messy political issues regarding Israel and Palestine issues. I plunged head first into an edit spree, and I'm not sure how to clean this up properly. - Gilgamesh 13:48, 22 July 2004 (UTC)
You fellows must be having bad hair days, what can I say. Gilgamesh I will work it out, no problem. And as for Josiah, your silliness again reveals that you have nothing of substance to say and just resort to crazy misunderstandings of things that were never meant nor said. Get a life and do some real work on Wikipedia, and stop "shadowing" and waiting to pounce when I am not even addressing you, and stop parroting and echoing negative things that are said. IZAK 05:53, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I'll try to avoid decision-making in Israel-Palestine naming issues. You must realize I intended absolutely no offense by it. If someone is always going to dispute "Israel", and someone is always going to dispute "Palestine" and "Palestinian territories", and apparently people are also going to dispute "Israel-Palestine", and alternative names like "Canaan", "Levant", "Holy Land", etc., then what the heck does one call the geographical region in NPOV fashion? If "Israel-Palestine" is not an option, then what on earth is? I can't think of a more neutral and compromising term than that. - Gilgamesh 06:43, 23 July 2004 (UTC)
Gilagamesh, don't think in terms of ancient history, you must realize that due to the current conflict some may want to enter into emotional disputations that have no place within the framework that Israel is a sovereign and independent country and that places (towns, cities etc) that are either within its boders or points that border on it must be listed as Category:Israel geography which is accurate and is NPOV. If there are some legitimate disputes based on reason and not on terror, then some boderline places can have Category:Palestinian Cities or simply Category:Palestine placed at the bottom of the relevant page/s. Having now gone and checked each article carefully I have delisted some places that have become purely Palestinian controlled, and where there is some known doubt (as based on the political situation) placed them in, or added to their pages, Category:Palestine so as to be as NPOV about it as possible. You must always remember that even though Israel and the Palestinian Arabs share some territory, yet they remain two opposite and hostile entities that one cannot just "redefine" by creating "categories" that simply reflect wishfull thinking and not anything that is real in the world as it is, or as it is known to be. IZAK 09:49, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
See related discussions at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Gilgamesh#Re_Category:Israel_geography
Yet somehow, Gilgamesh cannot let go of this subject and insists on creating an article in Wikipedia on the subject : Israel-Palestine. IZAK 10:47, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
How ridiculous to contest such an article. There are 382000 Google results for "Israel-Palestine"! It is a term, not an endorsement! Do you enjoy making life difficult? My patience is thin, and my Wikistress is at level 4. You are seeing the approaching end limits of my diplomacy. - Gilgamesh 11:13, 23 July 2004 (UTC)
I wanted to let people know that I am currently inverstigating and learning about a possibility that might be useful to many of us: Setting up a Hebrew WikiSource. I've announced it on the Hebrew Wikipedia as well. Those interested in working together on this, please contact me. Dovi 09:03, Jul 23, 2004 (UTC)
In my attempt to learn about setting up a Hebrew Wikisource, I learned some things that may be useful here. Specifically, there may be a legitimate need in certain articles to present a limited amount of Hebrew text. (This should not be overused - it could also get messy in a similar way to what we've already seen with overuse of transliteration - but it certain contexts it is justified, as are the various transliterations.)
Here is what I learned: To add Hebrew text in a LTR environment such as this English Wikipedia, and to make sure that paragraph formatting and punctuation appear correctly (as in a RTL environment), use the following code: <div dir="rtl"></div>.
For instance:
מאימתי קורין את שמע בערבין? משעה שהכוהנים נכנסין לאכול בתרומתן, עד סוף האשמורת הראשונה - דברי רבי אליעזר. וחכמים אומרין: עד חצות. רבן גמליאל אומר: עד שיעלה עמוד השחר.
(the first Mishnah in Berakhot). The typing is not so easy to do within the edit box in a LTR environment, which is why a Hebrew wikisource in its own domain (just like the Hebrew Wikipedia) would be preferable. Anyone who is interested in setting that up can let me know. Dovi 03:46, Jul 26, 2004 (UTC)
You only need the div tags to accomplish the kind of function called "format paragraph" in your word-processor, when you want the paragraph formatted RTL or LTR. In you placed just a word or two of Hebrew within an English paragraph you don't use this, because you want the paragraph formatted LTR. But if you include Hebrew text as a separate paragraph, as in my example above, then you want it formatted RTL and you need the div tag. Dovi 03:53, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC)
I wrote a new section in the main project page about how we should deal with anti-Semitism on Wikipedia. Jfdwolff noted that it may be outside the scope of this Wikiproject, so did Jayjg. Ok, if so, then where would it be appropriate? RK 15:04, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)
Jayjg further writes "Actually it deals with alleged anti-semitism, which is both technically and actually outside of the scope of this project. I recommend it be removed from here. "
I am in agreement with your points. However, I believe that I have been misunderstood. Nowhere did I write that we should get together and attack someone as being an anti-Semite. What good what that do? Rather, I was talking about something different: Sometimes anti-Semitic edits occur, so the practical question is this: How do we respond, and restore Wikipedia articles to a factual and NPOV status free of anti-Semtism (and free of any other form of bigotry). Step one is to recognize the most common forms of bias, and I noted cases that have occured on literally hundreds of websites. Step two is to mention what we view is a problem on the article's Talk page, and step three is to replace bigoted text and/or racist sterotypes with the high quality factual and NPOV material that should be in Wikipedia articles. RK
Shalosh regalim (The three pilgrimage festivals)
We don't need an article on this, as there is no such holiday; this is merely a phrase about the three Biblical pilgrimmage festivals, and these festivals already have articles. We could, of course, describe the useage of this phrase in the main article on Jewish holidays, and within each of the three articles on the pilgrimmage festivals. Appearing as an article by itself, however, would only be confusing to the non-Jewish reader. RK
Chol Hamoed (The "Intermediate days")
We don't need an article on this, as there is no such holiday; these are merely specific days within other holdiays, Sukkot and Pesach. These festivals already have articles. We could, of course, describe chol hamoed in the main article on Jewish holidays, and within each of the articles where it applies. Appearing as an article by itself, however, would only be confusing to the non-Jewish reader. RK
Fast of the First Born (Ta'anit Bechorim)
Acharon shel Pesach (Last days of Passover)
We should not have a separate article on every single aspect of Pesach (Passover.) These are just specific days within Pesach, which already has as article. We should, of course, describe these days within the Pesach article. Appearing as an article by itself, however, would only be confusing to the non-Jewish reader. RK
I just wanted to point out a new resource available on Jewish Thought that may be a valuable aid to some of our articles in that area. Go to [2] where there are some very fine e-lectures (which will hopefully be added to in the future, it seems). Dovi 03:20, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC)
Would it be a good idea to reference the traditional source material where appropriate, or would this depart from encyclopedia norm? Additionally, if appropriate might we standardise a template?
Balaam - I've stumbled on this yesterday and it needs a LOT of work. I've started by adding headings and removing an anti-Rabbinic reference. What should be done about the article? It intertwines documentary hypothesis, the Torah narrative, a strong Christian POV etc. I think this needs to be separated. Frikle 00:57, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
See User talk:Gilgamesh: "Invitation for Hebrew linguistics project participation" for the following: Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism is trying to decide all Hebrew linguistics issues for Wikipedia by themselves. But Hebrew is not purely the realm of Judaism; it is also the realm of Samaritans, Christians and Abrahamic religion as a whole, and also secular Canaanite languages studies. I'm trying to challenge mono-cultural mono-sectarian dominance over a linguistic field that we all should be sharing together. I invite you to participate in trying to pluralize Hebrew language conventions for Wikipedia. In particular, not only is Tiberian Hebrew transliteration challenged, but also Standard Hebrew transliteration, as some people want to use only Israeli Hebrew colloquial transliteration or Ashkenazi Hebrew liturgical transliteration. I think these are perfectly valid and worthy of participation, but not at the total expense of every other Hebrew linguistics study concern. Please support a multi-religious multi-cultural scientific NPOV mandate for studying Hebrew linguistics on Wikipedia. - Gilgamesh 03:00, 18 July 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the invitation, I would be happy to participate. I was just thinking last night that we need something like this. Where do I sign up? Zestauferov 05:32, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, so? That was actually more of an argument between Yoshiah_ap and I. That argument has been largely put to rest. Surprise, IZAK wasn't involved. :P - Gilgamesh 09:15, 22 July 2004 (UTC)
At the risk of stepping into another minefield, may I suggest that we tone down the rhetoric? It seems to me that the problem is not really as great as you describe it, and that all the options are legitimate.
The people who are tossing around suggestions for Israeli or Ashkenazi transliteration are mostly concerned about being both useful and user-friendly on articles about Judaism and Jews, especially in the relevant context of a living tradition among a live community and nation. I think that is a legitimate concern (though it should be argued respectfully). These people are not much concerned with historical linguistics, nor with the relevance that Hebrew may have to others in different fields, and that is also OK. Instead of being so dogmatic, I suggest allowing Hebrew to be transliterated based upon the context of the article in question. General guidelines wouldn't hurt, as long as they remain suggestions and not laws. Articles specific to Jews and Judaism may need a different style of transliteration that an article on the Samaritan Torah or Christian Bible study. It is wonderful that WP is built to allow this kind of pluralism, so let's take advantage of it instead of arguing about it.
So I think an additional Hebrew linguistics project would be wonderful, and I want to sign up! (I personally have an interest in both areas. I just hope I'll have time for all of this.)
PS: Gilgamesh, pluralism isn't only a secular concept. In fact, if it's only secular, it's not pluralistic :-)
Dovi 14:07, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC)
In the past few days, User:Gilgamesh inserted some confusing information (changing guidelines he agreed to about only two "types" of Hebrew), by adding "Caananite" to Hebrew names in articles such as:
This leaves the reader with the perculiar impression, that "Hebrew" letters are "Canaanite" whereas Hebrew as it is known to almost everyone TODAY is written in that bizarre "Latin" font. Why do these Hebrew-associated articles have to be so bombarded with User:Gilgamesh's innundations of multiple (up to four!) examples of the words? Would this be tolerated in Wikipedia English articles were they to be started with the different "American", "British", "Australian", and "Latin", or "Old English", pronounciations? Obviously NOT, so why do Hebrew words have to be explained in: "Canaanite"; TWO forms of "Hebrew"; "Arabic"; and now even "Latin"?! (Does the Arab version on Wikipedia also carry "Hebrew", "Latin", and "Canaanite"??? Do Latin words list "Hebrew" translations etc ad nauseam?) What is the purpose of all this visual clutter? Is it meant to confuse the exact meanings of SINGLE Hebrew word/s when it should be called "Hebrew" which it is, and not "Canaanite" which no-one has a clue what that is. One Hebrew word would be quite sufficient without four other linguistic variations, and NOT "Canaanite" since the "Canaanites - are defunct. Should articles be focused on linguistics or getting the basic information across? IZAK 07:45, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I am not the one who is "playing around" with the definitions and names of Hebrew, as for example, you have now taken the above, and made it into something new yet again, reaching into the bag of linguistic names that academics never tire of inventing as they go along (today it's one thing, and next year another) (What's the next "surprize" gonna be? Aramaic words cause it's a cousin language too?): Ashqelon or Ashkelon ( Hebrew alphabet אשקלון, Standard Hebrew Ašqəlon, Tiberian Hebrew ʾAšqəlôn; Arabic عسقلان ʿAsqalān; Latin Ascalon Jaffa, Israel ( Hebrew alphabet יפו, Standard Hebrew Yafo, Tiberian Hebrew Yāp̄ô; Arabic يافا Yāfā; also Japho, Joppa)
Your "assertion" that "It is a Canaanite alphabet (as the Hebrews adopted the Canaanite language while in Canaan).." is not accepted by everyone, certainly not by traditionalist Bible scholars, and their views have as much right to be represented here as any other group's, and is no less "scientific" as all of this stuff relates to things that took place thousands of years ago and cannot be "measured" in a lab as one would do working with chemicals!
You are furthermore making a serious error by interpreting Wikipedia's inherent openess and inclusiveness as a "license" to flood a Wikipedia article with all sorts of TANGENTIAL nonsensical information that does NOT help the reader learn anything. You could do the same to all English language Wikipedia articles by adding five alternates to each word from each of the following (take your pick) and dwelling on the fact that first there was the Old English language (I'm not sure what came before it? Hominids who spoke in Cave-man grunts? Does that deserve mention too?) that came from the Germanic language and was related to the Old Norse language and lived side by side with the Celtic languages which then became Middle English when it encountered the Norman language or Langue d'oïl which is one of the Romance languages of the Italic languages which was influenced by the Greek language when it became an Anglo-Norman language enriched by Classical Latin.....etc etc etc ad nauseam to become just plain old ENGLISH...and now take your pick from: American English, Australian English, British English, Canadian English, Caribbean English, Hiberno-English, Indian English, Middle English, Modern English, Old English, Pakistani English !!!! Phew, what a work-out...why would anyone want to put a reader through all of that I ask you unless they were looking to major in Linguistics?
You see we would never dream of doing such a foolish thing as it would CONFUSE the reader. So, when someone is reading the Hebrew name of a town in present-day Israel, such as Ashkelon or Jaffa / Yafo), the reader should NOT be subjected to a torturous and silly "academic exercise" (and that is being charitable) of confusing words that allude to histories/opinions/interpretations/political opposites/pseudo-scientific/and just plain old ridiculous verbiage that not only does NOT help describe and explain the subject, but instead induces in the reader a desire to "flip to the next page because this page is too confusing" as it tries to throw in everything, including the proverbial kitchen sink just because Wikipedia is a nice and tolerant place. Come on now, how about a little practical common sense? IZAK 09:28, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
To Gilgamesh: As far as the first part of your comments above, I shall always try to keep calm and open lines of communication with you going. However, as for the substance of this debate, it's not "trolling" when I point out that it is YOU that has been making arbitrary changes in very delicate areas that are always "strewn with mines" such as when you changed "Category:Israel geography" into "Category Israel-Palestine Geography", or insisting that Hebrew must be purely a "Canaanite" language when in fact those who adhere to a more classical Biblical interpretation, and also have their equal rights to be represented by an acceptable NPOV here, do not share this view, and your recent attempt to call Hebrew alphabet letters "Canaanite" in the Ahkelon and Jaffa articles. These are issues concerning Hebrew, a well-established classical language as well as being one that is spoken primarily by millions of Jews today, that you seem to feel you can change with the "flip of an article" on Wikipedia. One could perhaps have used this group here at Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism with people who probably know something about the subject as well, as a resource, but, no, in your eyes, this group is also a big problem. Instead, earlier, you went so far as to attack this group (and I repeat what you wrote because of its seriousness): " Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism is trying to decide all Hebrew linguistics issues for Wikipedia by themselves. But Hebrew is not purely the realm of Judaism; it is also the realm of Samaritans, Christians and Abrahamic religion as a whole, and also secular Canaanite languages studies. I'm trying to challenge mono-cultural mono-sectarian dominance over a linguistic field that we all should be sharing together. I invite you to participate in trying to pluralize Hebrew language conventions for Wikipedia. In particular, not only is Tiberian Hebrew transliteration challenged, but also Standard Hebrew transliteration, as some people want to use only Israeli Hebrew colloquial transliteration or Ashkenazi Hebrew liturgical transliteration. I think these are perfectly valid and worthy of participation, but not at the total expense of every other Hebrew linguistics study concern. Please support a multi-religious multi-cultural scientific NPOV mandate for studying Hebrew linguistics on Wikipedia. - Gilgamesh 03:00, 18 July 2004 (UTC)." As for your other comments about me personally I will not get into a shouting match, since we are trying to be polite right? But I will say that, yes, I do tend to write clearly and respond unambiguously to issues and articles that are dear to my heart from the Category:Jews and Judaism, and if what you hear is the "barking of a hound" then maybe I am either being a good "watch-dog" or you need to adjust your antenna and get the true drift of my written words which I tend not to cloud up with academic jargon even though I hold three secular academic degrees in my own specialty of world history (but that is another subject.) IZAK 04:15, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
To Gilgamesh: When you say: "Also, that part of the world is still highly disputed in different ways by hundreds of millions of people, so it only makes sense to calm anxieties by adding Hebrew and Arabic linguistic detail for every place in Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights, and nearby places (such as Damascus) of religious significance." "Calm anxieties"??? By adding Arab names to Israeli cities? Who exactly is getting "anxious" here? As far as is known, Israel is a legitimate democratic country. It is being "disputed" by suicide bombers and dictatorships such as Saudi Arabia and Libya. So it makes me very "worried". Which "hundreds of millions" of people are you talking about? Are you saying that you, Gilgamesh, have set yourself up as a "judge" of the Arab-Israeli struggle? So let me ask you, to prove your even-handedness are you also editing any article about Arab countries in Category:Arab and inserting Jewish and Hebrew words and letters IN HEBREW of places and people in all the articles of Arab countries since MILLIONS of Jews lived in those countries and their cities for thousands of years? In fact, the source of the Arabic language is Hebrew itself according to some scholars ( Maimonides). It seems that it is only this area of Jews, Judaism, Bible and Hebrew that is getting this unfair one-sided POV splatterings of names in multiple languages in three forms of Hebrew, Arabic, Latin, (no Greek yet, but it could always be squeezed in) because YOU want to "calm anxieties". Tell that to the marines. IZAK 04:42, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
To Gilgamesh: Just when one thinks there was perhaps some clarity settling in, as when recent articles on Jaffa, Israel and Ashqelon were switched from (newly introduced) Canaanite languages to the VERY CLEAR Hebrew alphabet for the given Hebrew lettering, now it is being switched yet again to the once again confusing definition of Hebrew languages and on that page take your pick from Ammonite language, Moabite language, Edomite language, Biblical Hebrew language, Samaritan Hebrew language, Mishnaic Hebrew language, Tiberian Hebrew language, Mizrahi Hebrew languages, Yemenite Hebrew language, Sephardi Hebrew language, Ashkenazi Hebrew, Modern Hebrew language, all in the name of a "better linguistics convention I had previous used for Jericho" (taken from User:Gilgamesh's changes, as an example, at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Jaffa%2C_Israel&action=history ). So now what is happening is that the name appears initially in a Wikipedia article, and immediately it comes up in Hebrew LETTERS but instead of the explanatory link going to Hebrew alphabet which lists all the letters clearly and beautifully on one page, rather, the reader is now being sent to Hebrew languages, as if the reader needs to know that once upon a time the Ammonites, Moabites, Edomites also "spoke it" which is hypothetical, and that there are at least EIGHT other brands of Hebrew to choose from since then, when in fact ONLY ONE, the common spoken and most used one today would be expected according to all logical and practical assumptions. So far many articles are being subjected to this unfortunate regimen, such as Haifa, Beersheba, Jaffa, Israel, Ashqelon, Ramla. IZAK 05:25, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I see that for all your talk, you would rather revert to name-calling and slander and self-righteousness rather than stick to the points under discussion. All that has happened thus far between us here is that I have been bringing to light the zigs and zags of YOUR editing of Hebrew words as you refuse to remain with one clear definition of a Hebrew word that will be universally understood but instead prefer to introduce confusion rather than clarity. YOU keep on making constant CONTROVERSIAL changes and you accuse me of all sorts of wierd things. What a pity. IZAK 06:26, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
The main page proclaims:
I don't see the bias. We are following NPOV rules in all of our articles. As long as we continue to do so, we will be fine. All of our articles may be seen as being biased towards Conservative and Modern Orthodox Judaism, due to the fact that the intellectual leaders of these movements have policies similar to NPOV rules. In contrast, most ultra-Orthodox Jews, (Hasidic and Non-Hasidic) are virtulently anti-historical, and view all historical research as anti-Semitic and heretical. But that is always a complaint made by fundamentalists about all non-religious encyclopedias. Wikipedia has a long history of being attacked by fundamentalist Muslims as being biased against their interpretation of Islam; Wikipedia has a long history of being attacked by fundamentalist Jews as being biased against their interpretation of Judaism; and Wikipedia has a long history of being attacked by fundamentalist Christians as being biased against their interpretation of Christianity. What they offer instead is a total violation of NPOV methodology. Their objections merely prove that the historical survery, NPOV style of writing which we currently have in our articles is the correct one to have. RK 13:37, Jul 14, 2004 (UTC)
If the project branches out endlessly it will have more trouble defining its subject matter and will attract more edit warring that is warranted. The secret of keeping this project succesful and viable is limiting its scope for the time being. JFW | T@lk
(See Category:Jewish texts)
(See Category:Rabbis)
(See Category:Jewish law and rituals)
(See Category:Jewish law and rituals)
(See Category:Jewish holy days)
(See Category:Jewish history)
(See Category:Mishnah and Category:Talmud)
(See Category:Torah and Category:Hebrew Bible/Tanakh
See:
I would like to make a radical suggestion related to the above two points, and to the next one. Every culture and religion on WP has its its literature discussed objectively and fairly (hopefully), but nevertheless merits articles presenting it as part of that culture. In the case of Judaism and Christianity, however, because the canon is partially shared, there is a great deal of conflict, implied bias, and a deep sense that a meaningful picture is hard to paint within some of the articles. This is especially true for the biblical books.
What was that Jewish news box that appeared in the Jews and Judaism article? How is it maintained? Who decides what goes in it? Jayjg 15:29, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Jewish News |
* Haaretz: Disengagement imminent! |
Hebrew Calendar |
August 6, 2005 - Rosh Chodesh Av - Beginning of The Nine Days of mourning |
August 14, 2005 - Tisha B'Av - Fast commemorating the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem |
Parsha |
Massei |
August 6, 2005 - 1 Av 5765 |
Devarim |
August 13, 2005 - 8 Av 5765 |
Va'etchanan |
August 13, 2005 - 15 Av 5765 |
Eikev |
August 27, 2005 - 22 Av 5765 |
Ezra Wax has taken it upon himself to insert this into many articles. On their own, many other Wikipedia editors removed it. I agree with the removal. Not that I am against having Jewish news, but it seems inappropriate to have Jewish news in all of our Judaism articles, Christian news in our Christianity articles, etc. We're an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. RK
On many articles Pronunciations are extremely, IMO, wacked up with "scientific" transliterations. Wikipedia is not the Scientific Weekly, or a Hardvard Research project. 90% of the people reading them would not have any clue as to what they were reason. For example, the Josiah page transliterates my name as "Yošiyyáhu" - why not keep it simple so everyone can understand it - "Yoshiyahu"?-- Josiah 02:36, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The Hebrew column in both parts of the dictionary is given in plene spelling, in accordance with the latest rules of the Hebrew Language Academy. All the relevant additional letters yod and vav have been inserted so that the user cann identify the word in the form in which he will encounter it in all modern books and newspapers. On the other hand the full and precise pointing has been aded (except for the silent sh'va) thus ensuring the precise pronunciation of each word.
I see mentioned "Israeli Sefardi transliteration" and "Artscroll quasi Ashkenazi transliteration" but I can't seem to find articles on Wikipedia about either of them? Where should I be looking? — Hippietrail 02:01, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The documentary hypothesis has nothing to do with Christianity; that is a strawman attack used by some Orthodox Jewish writers to delegitimize it within the traditional Jewish community. In fact, most Christians don't accept it at all. Similarly, the modern form of the documentary hypothesis, which has been developed over the last century, does not rely on the early and anti-Jewish ideas of Julius Wellhausen. That too is is a strawman attack used by a few Orthodox writers to delegitimize it within the traditional Jewish community. I don't know of a modern-day single adherent of Wellhausen's specific views. RK 00:25, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)
This is how it started, see: Higher Criticism and Radical Criticism: "Higher criticism originally referred to the practice of a group of German Biblical scholars centered in Tübingen, including Friedrich Schleiermacher (1768-1834), David Friedrich Strauss (1808-1874), and Ludwig Feuerbach (1804-1872), who began in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries to analyze the historical records of the Middle East from Christian and Old Testament times, in search of independent confirmation of the events related in the Bible. They are the intellectual descendants of John Locke, David Hume, Immanuel Kant, Gotthold Lessing, Gottlieb Fichte, Georg Hegel, and the French rationalists." On Wikipedia IZAK 05:22, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
What's with the "outright lie" business? All of them were Christian theologians, were steeped in the Christianity of their present day culture in Germany and had their roots in it. Otherwise why would they be so fanatically and "fundamentally" obsessed with the Bible of all things, they could have pursued hunting or something full time instead no? Why is it important to defend them, by checking on their level of Christain observance, when what they did is indefensible Judaicly speaking? You lack an understanding of how permeated with (the Christian) religion Western society was at that time. IZAK 05:58, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I realize now that it was probably unwise to do all the work to migrate the category name without discussing it, and for this I am sorry. I moved Category:Israel geography to Category:Israel-Palestine Geography when I noticed that many of the entries in the category were places in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. To me, it seemed like a clear-cut task of NPOVing it, and so I went to each article, one by one, and changed the geographical category from "Israel" to "Israel-Palestine", and then moved the category page itself. But now it's appearing that this term — in my experience commonly used in neutral context to refer to the geographical region of Israel and the Palestinian regions — is confusing some people who think that it's trying to imply that Israel-Palestine is a political enetity rather than a geographical one. To this blunder I attribute my autism and lack of theory of mind, things that often get me into trouble without ever seeing it. The only contention I ever predicted was IZAK, which I thought acceptable since he contests virtually everything. What really surprised me was contention from Nyh, with very reasonable arguments. And now...well, my act of rational centrist NPOV seems to have developed into a logistical fiasco, and I have only my shortcomings of consideration to blame. IZAK's category did need to be NPOVed, but I feel I may have made an error in trying to do so, though it seemed perfectly logical at the time. I'd like to request help and discussion in ways the category can be adequately NPOVed in respect to the messy political issues regarding Israel and Palestine issues. I plunged head first into an edit spree, and I'm not sure how to clean this up properly. - Gilgamesh 13:48, 22 July 2004 (UTC)
You fellows must be having bad hair days, what can I say. Gilgamesh I will work it out, no problem. And as for Josiah, your silliness again reveals that you have nothing of substance to say and just resort to crazy misunderstandings of things that were never meant nor said. Get a life and do some real work on Wikipedia, and stop "shadowing" and waiting to pounce when I am not even addressing you, and stop parroting and echoing negative things that are said. IZAK 05:53, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I'll try to avoid decision-making in Israel-Palestine naming issues. You must realize I intended absolutely no offense by it. If someone is always going to dispute "Israel", and someone is always going to dispute "Palestine" and "Palestinian territories", and apparently people are also going to dispute "Israel-Palestine", and alternative names like "Canaan", "Levant", "Holy Land", etc., then what the heck does one call the geographical region in NPOV fashion? If "Israel-Palestine" is not an option, then what on earth is? I can't think of a more neutral and compromising term than that. - Gilgamesh 06:43, 23 July 2004 (UTC)
Gilagamesh, don't think in terms of ancient history, you must realize that due to the current conflict some may want to enter into emotional disputations that have no place within the framework that Israel is a sovereign and independent country and that places (towns, cities etc) that are either within its boders or points that border on it must be listed as Category:Israel geography which is accurate and is NPOV. If there are some legitimate disputes based on reason and not on terror, then some boderline places can have Category:Palestinian Cities or simply Category:Palestine placed at the bottom of the relevant page/s. Having now gone and checked each article carefully I have delisted some places that have become purely Palestinian controlled, and where there is some known doubt (as based on the political situation) placed them in, or added to their pages, Category:Palestine so as to be as NPOV about it as possible. You must always remember that even though Israel and the Palestinian Arabs share some territory, yet they remain two opposite and hostile entities that one cannot just "redefine" by creating "categories" that simply reflect wishfull thinking and not anything that is real in the world as it is, or as it is known to be. IZAK 09:49, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
See related discussions at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Gilgamesh#Re_Category:Israel_geography
Yet somehow, Gilgamesh cannot let go of this subject and insists on creating an article in Wikipedia on the subject : Israel-Palestine. IZAK 10:47, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
How ridiculous to contest such an article. There are 382000 Google results for "Israel-Palestine"! It is a term, not an endorsement! Do you enjoy making life difficult? My patience is thin, and my Wikistress is at level 4. You are seeing the approaching end limits of my diplomacy. - Gilgamesh 11:13, 23 July 2004 (UTC)
I wanted to let people know that I am currently inverstigating and learning about a possibility that might be useful to many of us: Setting up a Hebrew WikiSource. I've announced it on the Hebrew Wikipedia as well. Those interested in working together on this, please contact me. Dovi 09:03, Jul 23, 2004 (UTC)
In my attempt to learn about setting up a Hebrew Wikisource, I learned some things that may be useful here. Specifically, there may be a legitimate need in certain articles to present a limited amount of Hebrew text. (This should not be overused - it could also get messy in a similar way to what we've already seen with overuse of transliteration - but it certain contexts it is justified, as are the various transliterations.)
Here is what I learned: To add Hebrew text in a LTR environment such as this English Wikipedia, and to make sure that paragraph formatting and punctuation appear correctly (as in a RTL environment), use the following code: <div dir="rtl"></div>.
For instance:
מאימתי קורין את שמע בערבין? משעה שהכוהנים נכנסין לאכול בתרומתן, עד סוף האשמורת הראשונה - דברי רבי אליעזר. וחכמים אומרין: עד חצות. רבן גמליאל אומר: עד שיעלה עמוד השחר.
(the first Mishnah in Berakhot). The typing is not so easy to do within the edit box in a LTR environment, which is why a Hebrew wikisource in its own domain (just like the Hebrew Wikipedia) would be preferable. Anyone who is interested in setting that up can let me know. Dovi 03:46, Jul 26, 2004 (UTC)
You only need the div tags to accomplish the kind of function called "format paragraph" in your word-processor, when you want the paragraph formatted RTL or LTR. In you placed just a word or two of Hebrew within an English paragraph you don't use this, because you want the paragraph formatted LTR. But if you include Hebrew text as a separate paragraph, as in my example above, then you want it formatted RTL and you need the div tag. Dovi 03:53, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC)
I wrote a new section in the main project page about how we should deal with anti-Semitism on Wikipedia. Jfdwolff noted that it may be outside the scope of this Wikiproject, so did Jayjg. Ok, if so, then where would it be appropriate? RK 15:04, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)
Jayjg further writes "Actually it deals with alleged anti-semitism, which is both technically and actually outside of the scope of this project. I recommend it be removed from here. "
I am in agreement with your points. However, I believe that I have been misunderstood. Nowhere did I write that we should get together and attack someone as being an anti-Semite. What good what that do? Rather, I was talking about something different: Sometimes anti-Semitic edits occur, so the practical question is this: How do we respond, and restore Wikipedia articles to a factual and NPOV status free of anti-Semtism (and free of any other form of bigotry). Step one is to recognize the most common forms of bias, and I noted cases that have occured on literally hundreds of websites. Step two is to mention what we view is a problem on the article's Talk page, and step three is to replace bigoted text and/or racist sterotypes with the high quality factual and NPOV material that should be in Wikipedia articles. RK
Shalosh regalim (The three pilgrimage festivals)
We don't need an article on this, as there is no such holiday; this is merely a phrase about the three Biblical pilgrimmage festivals, and these festivals already have articles. We could, of course, describe the useage of this phrase in the main article on Jewish holidays, and within each of the three articles on the pilgrimmage festivals. Appearing as an article by itself, however, would only be confusing to the non-Jewish reader. RK
Chol Hamoed (The "Intermediate days")
We don't need an article on this, as there is no such holiday; these are merely specific days within other holdiays, Sukkot and Pesach. These festivals already have articles. We could, of course, describe chol hamoed in the main article on Jewish holidays, and within each of the articles where it applies. Appearing as an article by itself, however, would only be confusing to the non-Jewish reader. RK
Fast of the First Born (Ta'anit Bechorim)
Acharon shel Pesach (Last days of Passover)
We should not have a separate article on every single aspect of Pesach (Passover.) These are just specific days within Pesach, which already has as article. We should, of course, describe these days within the Pesach article. Appearing as an article by itself, however, would only be confusing to the non-Jewish reader. RK
I just wanted to point out a new resource available on Jewish Thought that may be a valuable aid to some of our articles in that area. Go to [2] where there are some very fine e-lectures (which will hopefully be added to in the future, it seems). Dovi 03:20, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC)
Would it be a good idea to reference the traditional source material where appropriate, or would this depart from encyclopedia norm? Additionally, if appropriate might we standardise a template?
Balaam - I've stumbled on this yesterday and it needs a LOT of work. I've started by adding headings and removing an anti-Rabbinic reference. What should be done about the article? It intertwines documentary hypothesis, the Torah narrative, a strong Christian POV etc. I think this needs to be separated. Frikle 00:57, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
See User talk:Gilgamesh: "Invitation for Hebrew linguistics project participation" for the following: Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism is trying to decide all Hebrew linguistics issues for Wikipedia by themselves. But Hebrew is not purely the realm of Judaism; it is also the realm of Samaritans, Christians and Abrahamic religion as a whole, and also secular Canaanite languages studies. I'm trying to challenge mono-cultural mono-sectarian dominance over a linguistic field that we all should be sharing together. I invite you to participate in trying to pluralize Hebrew language conventions for Wikipedia. In particular, not only is Tiberian Hebrew transliteration challenged, but also Standard Hebrew transliteration, as some people want to use only Israeli Hebrew colloquial transliteration or Ashkenazi Hebrew liturgical transliteration. I think these are perfectly valid and worthy of participation, but not at the total expense of every other Hebrew linguistics study concern. Please support a multi-religious multi-cultural scientific NPOV mandate for studying Hebrew linguistics on Wikipedia. - Gilgamesh 03:00, 18 July 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the invitation, I would be happy to participate. I was just thinking last night that we need something like this. Where do I sign up? Zestauferov 05:32, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, so? That was actually more of an argument between Yoshiah_ap and I. That argument has been largely put to rest. Surprise, IZAK wasn't involved. :P - Gilgamesh 09:15, 22 July 2004 (UTC)
At the risk of stepping into another minefield, may I suggest that we tone down the rhetoric? It seems to me that the problem is not really as great as you describe it, and that all the options are legitimate.
The people who are tossing around suggestions for Israeli or Ashkenazi transliteration are mostly concerned about being both useful and user-friendly on articles about Judaism and Jews, especially in the relevant context of a living tradition among a live community and nation. I think that is a legitimate concern (though it should be argued respectfully). These people are not much concerned with historical linguistics, nor with the relevance that Hebrew may have to others in different fields, and that is also OK. Instead of being so dogmatic, I suggest allowing Hebrew to be transliterated based upon the context of the article in question. General guidelines wouldn't hurt, as long as they remain suggestions and not laws. Articles specific to Jews and Judaism may need a different style of transliteration that an article on the Samaritan Torah or Christian Bible study. It is wonderful that WP is built to allow this kind of pluralism, so let's take advantage of it instead of arguing about it.
So I think an additional Hebrew linguistics project would be wonderful, and I want to sign up! (I personally have an interest in both areas. I just hope I'll have time for all of this.)
PS: Gilgamesh, pluralism isn't only a secular concept. In fact, if it's only secular, it's not pluralistic :-)
Dovi 14:07, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC)
In the past few days, User:Gilgamesh inserted some confusing information (changing guidelines he agreed to about only two "types" of Hebrew), by adding "Caananite" to Hebrew names in articles such as:
This leaves the reader with the perculiar impression, that "Hebrew" letters are "Canaanite" whereas Hebrew as it is known to almost everyone TODAY is written in that bizarre "Latin" font. Why do these Hebrew-associated articles have to be so bombarded with User:Gilgamesh's innundations of multiple (up to four!) examples of the words? Would this be tolerated in Wikipedia English articles were they to be started with the different "American", "British", "Australian", and "Latin", or "Old English", pronounciations? Obviously NOT, so why do Hebrew words have to be explained in: "Canaanite"; TWO forms of "Hebrew"; "Arabic"; and now even "Latin"?! (Does the Arab version on Wikipedia also carry "Hebrew", "Latin", and "Canaanite"??? Do Latin words list "Hebrew" translations etc ad nauseam?) What is the purpose of all this visual clutter? Is it meant to confuse the exact meanings of SINGLE Hebrew word/s when it should be called "Hebrew" which it is, and not "Canaanite" which no-one has a clue what that is. One Hebrew word would be quite sufficient without four other linguistic variations, and NOT "Canaanite" since the "Canaanites - are defunct. Should articles be focused on linguistics or getting the basic information across? IZAK 07:45, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I am not the one who is "playing around" with the definitions and names of Hebrew, as for example, you have now taken the above, and made it into something new yet again, reaching into the bag of linguistic names that academics never tire of inventing as they go along (today it's one thing, and next year another) (What's the next "surprize" gonna be? Aramaic words cause it's a cousin language too?): Ashqelon or Ashkelon ( Hebrew alphabet אשקלון, Standard Hebrew Ašqəlon, Tiberian Hebrew ʾAšqəlôn; Arabic عسقلان ʿAsqalān; Latin Ascalon Jaffa, Israel ( Hebrew alphabet יפו, Standard Hebrew Yafo, Tiberian Hebrew Yāp̄ô; Arabic يافا Yāfā; also Japho, Joppa)
Your "assertion" that "It is a Canaanite alphabet (as the Hebrews adopted the Canaanite language while in Canaan).." is not accepted by everyone, certainly not by traditionalist Bible scholars, and their views have as much right to be represented here as any other group's, and is no less "scientific" as all of this stuff relates to things that took place thousands of years ago and cannot be "measured" in a lab as one would do working with chemicals!
You are furthermore making a serious error by interpreting Wikipedia's inherent openess and inclusiveness as a "license" to flood a Wikipedia article with all sorts of TANGENTIAL nonsensical information that does NOT help the reader learn anything. You could do the same to all English language Wikipedia articles by adding five alternates to each word from each of the following (take your pick) and dwelling on the fact that first there was the Old English language (I'm not sure what came before it? Hominids who spoke in Cave-man grunts? Does that deserve mention too?) that came from the Germanic language and was related to the Old Norse language and lived side by side with the Celtic languages which then became Middle English when it encountered the Norman language or Langue d'oïl which is one of the Romance languages of the Italic languages which was influenced by the Greek language when it became an Anglo-Norman language enriched by Classical Latin.....etc etc etc ad nauseam to become just plain old ENGLISH...and now take your pick from: American English, Australian English, British English, Canadian English, Caribbean English, Hiberno-English, Indian English, Middle English, Modern English, Old English, Pakistani English !!!! Phew, what a work-out...why would anyone want to put a reader through all of that I ask you unless they were looking to major in Linguistics?
You see we would never dream of doing such a foolish thing as it would CONFUSE the reader. So, when someone is reading the Hebrew name of a town in present-day Israel, such as Ashkelon or Jaffa / Yafo), the reader should NOT be subjected to a torturous and silly "academic exercise" (and that is being charitable) of confusing words that allude to histories/opinions/interpretations/political opposites/pseudo-scientific/and just plain old ridiculous verbiage that not only does NOT help describe and explain the subject, but instead induces in the reader a desire to "flip to the next page because this page is too confusing" as it tries to throw in everything, including the proverbial kitchen sink just because Wikipedia is a nice and tolerant place. Come on now, how about a little practical common sense? IZAK 09:28, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
To Gilgamesh: As far as the first part of your comments above, I shall always try to keep calm and open lines of communication with you going. However, as for the substance of this debate, it's not "trolling" when I point out that it is YOU that has been making arbitrary changes in very delicate areas that are always "strewn with mines" such as when you changed "Category:Israel geography" into "Category Israel-Palestine Geography", or insisting that Hebrew must be purely a "Canaanite" language when in fact those who adhere to a more classical Biblical interpretation, and also have their equal rights to be represented by an acceptable NPOV here, do not share this view, and your recent attempt to call Hebrew alphabet letters "Canaanite" in the Ahkelon and Jaffa articles. These are issues concerning Hebrew, a well-established classical language as well as being one that is spoken primarily by millions of Jews today, that you seem to feel you can change with the "flip of an article" on Wikipedia. One could perhaps have used this group here at Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism with people who probably know something about the subject as well, as a resource, but, no, in your eyes, this group is also a big problem. Instead, earlier, you went so far as to attack this group (and I repeat what you wrote because of its seriousness): " Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism is trying to decide all Hebrew linguistics issues for Wikipedia by themselves. But Hebrew is not purely the realm of Judaism; it is also the realm of Samaritans, Christians and Abrahamic religion as a whole, and also secular Canaanite languages studies. I'm trying to challenge mono-cultural mono-sectarian dominance over a linguistic field that we all should be sharing together. I invite you to participate in trying to pluralize Hebrew language conventions for Wikipedia. In particular, not only is Tiberian Hebrew transliteration challenged, but also Standard Hebrew transliteration, as some people want to use only Israeli Hebrew colloquial transliteration or Ashkenazi Hebrew liturgical transliteration. I think these are perfectly valid and worthy of participation, but not at the total expense of every other Hebrew linguistics study concern. Please support a multi-religious multi-cultural scientific NPOV mandate for studying Hebrew linguistics on Wikipedia. - Gilgamesh 03:00, 18 July 2004 (UTC)." As for your other comments about me personally I will not get into a shouting match, since we are trying to be polite right? But I will say that, yes, I do tend to write clearly and respond unambiguously to issues and articles that are dear to my heart from the Category:Jews and Judaism, and if what you hear is the "barking of a hound" then maybe I am either being a good "watch-dog" or you need to adjust your antenna and get the true drift of my written words which I tend not to cloud up with academic jargon even though I hold three secular academic degrees in my own specialty of world history (but that is another subject.) IZAK 04:15, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
To Gilgamesh: When you say: "Also, that part of the world is still highly disputed in different ways by hundreds of millions of people, so it only makes sense to calm anxieties by adding Hebrew and Arabic linguistic detail for every place in Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights, and nearby places (such as Damascus) of religious significance." "Calm anxieties"??? By adding Arab names to Israeli cities? Who exactly is getting "anxious" here? As far as is known, Israel is a legitimate democratic country. It is being "disputed" by suicide bombers and dictatorships such as Saudi Arabia and Libya. So it makes me very "worried". Which "hundreds of millions" of people are you talking about? Are you saying that you, Gilgamesh, have set yourself up as a "judge" of the Arab-Israeli struggle? So let me ask you, to prove your even-handedness are you also editing any article about Arab countries in Category:Arab and inserting Jewish and Hebrew words and letters IN HEBREW of places and people in all the articles of Arab countries since MILLIONS of Jews lived in those countries and their cities for thousands of years? In fact, the source of the Arabic language is Hebrew itself according to some scholars ( Maimonides). It seems that it is only this area of Jews, Judaism, Bible and Hebrew that is getting this unfair one-sided POV splatterings of names in multiple languages in three forms of Hebrew, Arabic, Latin, (no Greek yet, but it could always be squeezed in) because YOU want to "calm anxieties". Tell that to the marines. IZAK 04:42, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
To Gilgamesh: Just when one thinks there was perhaps some clarity settling in, as when recent articles on Jaffa, Israel and Ashqelon were switched from (newly introduced) Canaanite languages to the VERY CLEAR Hebrew alphabet for the given Hebrew lettering, now it is being switched yet again to the once again confusing definition of Hebrew languages and on that page take your pick from Ammonite language, Moabite language, Edomite language, Biblical Hebrew language, Samaritan Hebrew language, Mishnaic Hebrew language, Tiberian Hebrew language, Mizrahi Hebrew languages, Yemenite Hebrew language, Sephardi Hebrew language, Ashkenazi Hebrew, Modern Hebrew language, all in the name of a "better linguistics convention I had previous used for Jericho" (taken from User:Gilgamesh's changes, as an example, at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Jaffa%2C_Israel&action=history ). So now what is happening is that the name appears initially in a Wikipedia article, and immediately it comes up in Hebrew LETTERS but instead of the explanatory link going to Hebrew alphabet which lists all the letters clearly and beautifully on one page, rather, the reader is now being sent to Hebrew languages, as if the reader needs to know that once upon a time the Ammonites, Moabites, Edomites also "spoke it" which is hypothetical, and that there are at least EIGHT other brands of Hebrew to choose from since then, when in fact ONLY ONE, the common spoken and most used one today would be expected according to all logical and practical assumptions. So far many articles are being subjected to this unfortunate regimen, such as Haifa, Beersheba, Jaffa, Israel, Ashqelon, Ramla. IZAK 05:25, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I see that for all your talk, you would rather revert to name-calling and slander and self-righteousness rather than stick to the points under discussion. All that has happened thus far between us here is that I have been bringing to light the zigs and zags of YOUR editing of Hebrew words as you refuse to remain with one clear definition of a Hebrew word that will be universally understood but instead prefer to introduce confusion rather than clarity. YOU keep on making constant CONTROVERSIAL changes and you accuse me of all sorts of wierd things. What a pity. IZAK 06:26, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)