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Statutes and Regulations in all six FA, in six countries emerged from Ex-Yugoslavia (Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia), are the same to the letter !
All six FA retained the same Statute and Regulations, which they all inherited from their once common organization "FSJ", or as it was called Ex-Yugoslav FA, and only those changes which FIFA/UEFA specifically initiated and ordered since then are today in place in every of these organizations, respectively.
Those of you who are able to read Serbo-Croatian should visit following links and find and read specific articles, regarding this issue, in documents given in pdf. You will notice that all these leagues are based on the same Statute and regulations, almost identical in language and formulations - which, basically, brings us to the following dilemma: are these leagues, all six of them, all professional leagues or not, and if one of them is "voted" here in discussion as "not-so-professional", then non of them is !
I already did, dived in these documents, hanged on each FA website, respectively. I also know that Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian, Montenegrin and Bosnian statute and regulations are identical. They all inherited the old statute and the old regulations, which gave "Prva Savezna Liga Jugoslavije" professional status - they all inherited same regulations, not just Serbian FA.
That create problem here - if these leagues are all professional, as their documents show, then they must be, since they are bound by UEFA regulations, and they have to meet them in full, not as they chose.
But as always, what's important here is consensus, and in such manner that number of votes supersede fact(s). This is Wikipedia, after all.
Nonetheless, some of these editors, and that is painfully obvious, confusing economical prowess and financial strength of these smaller leagues with professionalism. Instead of drawing conclusions from the facts and informations, or any kind of sources, they vote if league is professional or not. Not to mention that it's generally accepted that if four or five people show up to vote and reach consensus, it's considered enough, as if that's somehow representative of general public - mention of facts is pointless at this point. Anyway, this gives them impression that they are doing something absolutely correctly, and that decision reached on the basis of personal preferences, personal opinion and hunch is still OK, as long as it's resulting in consensus.
However, these leagues exists and operate as professional under UEFA umbrella, they are bound by FIFA/UEFA regulations, which gives them credibility.
And yes, froward removal of Bosnian league from the list, as it is completely baseless, seems to me troubling-- Santasa99 ( talk) 05:18, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
I asked Sir Sputnik following:
"Help me to understand - are you saying that you derived your conclusions from the facts, and reached consensus by deliberation, as you dwell upon the documents or other source of facts and informations for some period of time ? Or you are simply confirming that you reached the decision by vote, indeed, based on a hunch and your personal preference ? Are you saying that I have to outmuscle you with more votes ? Despite the fact that I know the league is professional, that it's based on identical statute and regulations as Serbian, Croatian and Montenegrin, and that, most importantly, you can read it for yourself in the documents given in refs ?"
Hopefully, facts still matter more to encyclopedia then bunch of votes -- Santasa99 ( talk) 03:08, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
I need a clarification on the above subject. I want to know if Benin Premier League is a fully professional league. Am aware that Nigeria Premier League is a fully professional League and was listed at WP:FPL but Benin Premier League was not listed. Could it be as a result of the fact that the league is not a fully professional league or the article about the league was created lately because am aware that both league are equivalent. Wikic¤l¤gy t@lk to M£ 01:16, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
Why is this not considered fully professional? See [1] or search for LPF2 on google-- 109.100.41.154 ( talk) 13:14, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Armenia is not listed anywhere (not as fully pro or as "not fully pro") so I wanted to open a discussion on where to put them.
The information I can find is that on the homepage at the football associations, under section "regulations", it says 2014-2015 RA professional football clubs tournaments regulations [2] (note the word "Professional"). Under section licensing it says Starting from 2002 the Football Federation of Armenia has been implementing the requirements of the UEFA club licensing system... [3] which is a sign that they are professional?
Fully pro or not? Qed237 (talk) 15:17, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Division 1 Féminine is listed as semi-professional at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues yet I have some doubts about this. This article describes how forward Lindsey Horan is making a hefty wage, while here Laure Boulleau & Amandine Henry are shown to make a respectable income as well. Granted all the players mentioned play for the top two clubs and are the star performers of their teams, but is it time to reconsider Division 1 Féminine's place in Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues? Inter&anthro ( talk) 21:02, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
What is the status of the Salvadoran Primera División? I don't see it listed here. Joeykai ( talk) 06:39, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Hi,
According to CBF: Somente poderão participar do Campeonato os atletas que tenham sido registrados na DRT e cujos nomes constem do BID publicado até o último dia útil que anteceder a cada partida. (art. 5)
Which means that every player who appears in Série C needs to be registered professionally. Also, this was mentioned in art. 22 ([...] a atleta profissional registrado, ficará sujeito à perda de 03 (três) pontos por partida a ser disputada, depois de reconhecida a mora e o inadimplemento por decisão do Superior Tribunal de Justiça Desportiva (STJD).).
What do you guys think?
Cheers, MYS 77 ✉ 02:20, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
I've added it in. Any ideas about Serie D? Abcmaxx ( talk) 17:29, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
No the source on Macedonia makes it clear the players were ILLEGALLY signed up as amateurs, and it's illegality stems from the fact it is a fully pro league, otherwise, why would it be illegal? It makes it clear that the players and clubs ARE pro, just the clubs have failed to obey the laws - failure to complete paperwork/dodgy dealings do not suddenly make this a different matter. As for Serie C, the re is a reliable source, in fact the same one used for Serie A and B. Also where in the Bosnian article does it say it allows registration of amateurs? Abcmaxx ( talk) 07:15, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Due to the persistent reverting, I've locked the main page for a week. In the meantime, please try and reach a consensus on whether these three leagues should be added to the FPL list. Number 5 7 09:17, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
I am making a case now, on basis of illegality is not a sufficient reason to suddenly deem a fully pro league suddenly semi-pro, especially as 1 occurrence reported in 2007; no-one suddenly claimed Italian Serie A and B is suddenly semi-pro because teams fixed matches, i'm sure these kind of dodgy contracts are given in many a league anyway. No international interest that's hardly applicable to any more than 5-6 top leagues. There's little international interest for English League 2 outside the UK I'd say, it's still fully pro league. Can we agree at least on Serie C, given that a reliable source (same one used for Series A & B) was given? Abcmaxx ( talk) 22:32, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Sorry to bring it up again, but I've been researching the subject of professionalism in Israeli football, and found the following (most links are in Hebrew, but I'll summarize them):
Having said that, according to official data (in this short Hebrew article), in 2013, 36% of the professional footballers in Israel earned less than 50,000 NIS (roughly 13,200 USD) a year, which would force them to be semi-professionals.
Therefore, I would suggest amending the list so that the Israeli top division (Liga Leumit until 1999, Premier League afterwards) would count as Professional starting with 1991, Second division, starting from 1999 and onwards (updating the data beyond 2009, as it appears now), and Third Division, Liga Artzit, between 1999 and 2009, since it was regarded as professional and was treated as such by the IFA.-- Eranrabl ( talk) 20:41, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 |
Statutes and Regulations in all six FA, in six countries emerged from Ex-Yugoslavia (Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia), are the same to the letter !
All six FA retained the same Statute and Regulations, which they all inherited from their once common organization "FSJ", or as it was called Ex-Yugoslav FA, and only those changes which FIFA/UEFA specifically initiated and ordered since then are today in place in every of these organizations, respectively.
Those of you who are able to read Serbo-Croatian should visit following links and find and read specific articles, regarding this issue, in documents given in pdf. You will notice that all these leagues are based on the same Statute and regulations, almost identical in language and formulations - which, basically, brings us to the following dilemma: are these leagues, all six of them, all professional leagues or not, and if one of them is "voted" here in discussion as "not-so-professional", then non of them is !
I already did, dived in these documents, hanged on each FA website, respectively. I also know that Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian, Montenegrin and Bosnian statute and regulations are identical. They all inherited the old statute and the old regulations, which gave "Prva Savezna Liga Jugoslavije" professional status - they all inherited same regulations, not just Serbian FA.
That create problem here - if these leagues are all professional, as their documents show, then they must be, since they are bound by UEFA regulations, and they have to meet them in full, not as they chose.
But as always, what's important here is consensus, and in such manner that number of votes supersede fact(s). This is Wikipedia, after all.
Nonetheless, some of these editors, and that is painfully obvious, confusing economical prowess and financial strength of these smaller leagues with professionalism. Instead of drawing conclusions from the facts and informations, or any kind of sources, they vote if league is professional or not. Not to mention that it's generally accepted that if four or five people show up to vote and reach consensus, it's considered enough, as if that's somehow representative of general public - mention of facts is pointless at this point. Anyway, this gives them impression that they are doing something absolutely correctly, and that decision reached on the basis of personal preferences, personal opinion and hunch is still OK, as long as it's resulting in consensus.
However, these leagues exists and operate as professional under UEFA umbrella, they are bound by FIFA/UEFA regulations, which gives them credibility.
And yes, froward removal of Bosnian league from the list, as it is completely baseless, seems to me troubling-- Santasa99 ( talk) 05:18, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
I asked Sir Sputnik following:
"Help me to understand - are you saying that you derived your conclusions from the facts, and reached consensus by deliberation, as you dwell upon the documents or other source of facts and informations for some period of time ? Or you are simply confirming that you reached the decision by vote, indeed, based on a hunch and your personal preference ? Are you saying that I have to outmuscle you with more votes ? Despite the fact that I know the league is professional, that it's based on identical statute and regulations as Serbian, Croatian and Montenegrin, and that, most importantly, you can read it for yourself in the documents given in refs ?"
Hopefully, facts still matter more to encyclopedia then bunch of votes -- Santasa99 ( talk) 03:08, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
I need a clarification on the above subject. I want to know if Benin Premier League is a fully professional league. Am aware that Nigeria Premier League is a fully professional League and was listed at WP:FPL but Benin Premier League was not listed. Could it be as a result of the fact that the league is not a fully professional league or the article about the league was created lately because am aware that both league are equivalent. Wikic¤l¤gy t@lk to M£ 01:16, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
Why is this not considered fully professional? See [1] or search for LPF2 on google-- 109.100.41.154 ( talk) 13:14, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Armenia is not listed anywhere (not as fully pro or as "not fully pro") so I wanted to open a discussion on where to put them.
The information I can find is that on the homepage at the football associations, under section "regulations", it says 2014-2015 RA professional football clubs tournaments regulations [2] (note the word "Professional"). Under section licensing it says Starting from 2002 the Football Federation of Armenia has been implementing the requirements of the UEFA club licensing system... [3] which is a sign that they are professional?
Fully pro or not? Qed237 (talk) 15:17, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Division 1 Féminine is listed as semi-professional at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues yet I have some doubts about this. This article describes how forward Lindsey Horan is making a hefty wage, while here Laure Boulleau & Amandine Henry are shown to make a respectable income as well. Granted all the players mentioned play for the top two clubs and are the star performers of their teams, but is it time to reconsider Division 1 Féminine's place in Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues? Inter&anthro ( talk) 21:02, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
What is the status of the Salvadoran Primera División? I don't see it listed here. Joeykai ( talk) 06:39, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Hi,
According to CBF: Somente poderão participar do Campeonato os atletas que tenham sido registrados na DRT e cujos nomes constem do BID publicado até o último dia útil que anteceder a cada partida. (art. 5)
Which means that every player who appears in Série C needs to be registered professionally. Also, this was mentioned in art. 22 ([...] a atleta profissional registrado, ficará sujeito à perda de 03 (três) pontos por partida a ser disputada, depois de reconhecida a mora e o inadimplemento por decisão do Superior Tribunal de Justiça Desportiva (STJD).).
What do you guys think?
Cheers, MYS 77 ✉ 02:20, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
I've added it in. Any ideas about Serie D? Abcmaxx ( talk) 17:29, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
No the source on Macedonia makes it clear the players were ILLEGALLY signed up as amateurs, and it's illegality stems from the fact it is a fully pro league, otherwise, why would it be illegal? It makes it clear that the players and clubs ARE pro, just the clubs have failed to obey the laws - failure to complete paperwork/dodgy dealings do not suddenly make this a different matter. As for Serie C, the re is a reliable source, in fact the same one used for Serie A and B. Also where in the Bosnian article does it say it allows registration of amateurs? Abcmaxx ( talk) 07:15, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Due to the persistent reverting, I've locked the main page for a week. In the meantime, please try and reach a consensus on whether these three leagues should be added to the FPL list. Number 5 7 09:17, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
I am making a case now, on basis of illegality is not a sufficient reason to suddenly deem a fully pro league suddenly semi-pro, especially as 1 occurrence reported in 2007; no-one suddenly claimed Italian Serie A and B is suddenly semi-pro because teams fixed matches, i'm sure these kind of dodgy contracts are given in many a league anyway. No international interest that's hardly applicable to any more than 5-6 top leagues. There's little international interest for English League 2 outside the UK I'd say, it's still fully pro league. Can we agree at least on Serie C, given that a reliable source (same one used for Series A & B) was given? Abcmaxx ( talk) 22:32, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Sorry to bring it up again, but I've been researching the subject of professionalism in Israeli football, and found the following (most links are in Hebrew, but I'll summarize them):
Having said that, according to official data (in this short Hebrew article), in 2013, 36% of the professional footballers in Israel earned less than 50,000 NIS (roughly 13,200 USD) a year, which would force them to be semi-professionals.
Therefore, I would suggest amending the list so that the Israeli top division (Liga Leumit until 1999, Premier League afterwards) would count as Professional starting with 1991, Second division, starting from 1999 and onwards (updating the data beyond 2009, as it appears now), and Third Division, Liga Artzit, between 1999 and 2009, since it was regarded as professional and was treated as such by the IFA.-- Eranrabl ( talk) 20:41, 14 July 2015 (UTC)