Crime and Criminal Biography: Organized crime Project‑class | ||||||||||
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Hi. I'd to join your project in formation. I spent a summer interning at a law firm involved in organized crime work, and subsequently performed some academic work on the subject and have read very widely. This is a very interesting project and I think I can make a contribution.
Incidentally, the article on the National Crime Syndicate troubles me somewhat. I have attempted to improve it but it requires work and I wonder whether it should exist at all. There are no citations, but it appears to be based on old theories of organized crime, advanced by Hank Messick and a few others, that are unsubstantiated and based largely on conjecture. Messick's work on Lansky has been largely discredited as you know.
While it is certainly true that in the 1920s-1940s there were large non-Italian crime groups that worked together, the theory that there was a formal organization, along the lines of the Mafia Commission which of course was very much a reality, seems to be largely unproven.-- Mantanmoreland 15:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for adding. Speaking of pre-Prohibition -- have you read the Cornelius Willemse books -- Behind the Green Lights and A Cop Remembers? Which reminds me, I should check to see if there is an article on Willemse.-- Mantanmoreland 13:27, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
There wasn't any so I added an article on Willemse. I have to check the names of the gang members mentioned to be sure they conform to other Wiki articles.-- Mantanmoreland 14:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I just wandered through the FBI FOI Reading Room database, with all the files of Zwillman, Dutch Schultz and others, and I have to say that in general it is pretty useless stuff. Mostly news clips. Hoover just was not on the ball when it came to OC. There are references to a "crime syndicate" but it is mostly glommed from news clips.
Speaking of the Times, you can get early Times clips fairly inexpensively as you may know.-- Mantanmoreland 20:16, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
An issue regarding the nessessity of alphabetising lists has been brought up on Talk:List of Irish-American mobsters. It's been proposed the section headers be deleted, given the relatively small size of the list, or reformat the list altogether. Should this be proposed for the other lists ? MadMax 19:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Max, you may want to take a look at the Louis Buchalter article, which is a real mess. First of all it is totally unsourced. I just put a tag on that. Secondly it has statements in it that are dubious at best, such as saying that his birth name was "Buckhouse," which is not true I do believe, and that he was a member of the "Amboy Dukes" street gang, ditto.
The date of birth was contradicted by his FBI file, which is online, so I corrected it. However, I have held off on fixing other stuff before determining exactly where all that stuff came from. Though I have done a fair amount of reading on Buchalter in the past, the only source material that I have at present are those FBI files, which of course are problematic under WP:NOR.
Lepke was one of the most important crime figues of the century and it is a shame that this article, with all its statements of questionable accuracy, is being promulgated and distributed on the net. I really hope some editors with expertise on this, such as yourself, could take a look. Meanwhile I'll try digging out some source materials and also stick some "citation needed" tags on the thing.-- Mantanmoreland 15:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
As I noted previously, this article was a complete mess. It was completely unsourced, and above all it was inaccurate. It confused the NCS -- which was a supposed multi-ethnic crime combine in the 1930s-1940s -- with the Mafia itself. Thus there were confusing references to the Mafia Commission, which was within the Mafia and had no jurisidiction over non-Italian gangsters like Dutch Schultz etc.
AFter hesitating for some weeks I decided to just weigh in and remove the unsourced, unverifiable material and the clearly erroneous Mafia references. After cutting, there wasn't left with much. However, I think a smaller, essentially accurate article is better than a lengthy, totally erroneous one. In searching the Net I found that the erroneous article had been picked up by answers.com and google and spread all over the net!
Anyway, Max, if you or anyone has some verified sources that can be cited and footnoted, pls weigh in. I'm going to search through my own stuff. The FBI file on Lepke, incidentally, makes no reference to the NCS.-- Mantanmoreland 14:40, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Like similar articles such as the Irish Mob, this seems to me improperly named and requires a major cleanup. Any thoughts ? MadMax 15:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
See; Venero Mangano
It's pretty crap and unrefined but he has a page now so I'm happy. Tell me if you see any major flaws/possible improvements (i know there is a tonne of them). Alexbonaro 05:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
-- Alexbonaro 00:10, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I've begun an article on this famous Murder, Inc. prosecutor, who certainly deserves one. Please weigh in. One question: I unintentionally omitted the middle initial from the title. Will fix in the article but do you think it should be fixed in the title? Better to do now then later.-- Mantanmoreland 21:26, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I was curious however, as you've looked at a few FBI files, do you feel more acedemic based research is more reliable then general government reports regarding organized crime ? MadMax 08:01, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
A question has been raised by User:Will.i.am regarding the expansion of the Lenox Avenue Gang and possibly merging Gyp the Blood and other gang members into the article. MadMax 22:57, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
A question has been asked by anonymous User:140.147.180.165 in regards to the gangland slaying of Anthony Castellito. Aparently there are contradicting claims which has his murder take place in 1961 or 1971 and by Salvatore "Sally Bugs" Briguglio or by Anthony "Tony Pro" Provenzano. MadMax 19:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
In compiling several recent articles, I've run across a few inconsistant, if not confusing, facts.
So says the article on Trigger Mike [7]. Isn't that wrong?-- Mantanmoreland 16:41, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I've been trying to add additional information to Vincenzo Aloi, another article created by User:TheChin, since it was previously redirected as a stub to the Colombo crime family. However, the article doesn't clarify weither this is Vincenzo "Buster" Aloi or his son. I'm assuming its his son, given the 1923 birthdate, however the article give a much higher position within the Colombo family as consigliere (when he is stated as a New Jersey capo in 1988 [8]) ? MadMax 14:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Max, what are your thoughts on the Joey Rao situation? I've got some stuff from the Valachi bio I'd like to stick in, but I want tow ait until the articles are merged. They are definitely the same guy. -- Mantanmoreland 04:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The date of death for Abraham Friedman differs between AmericanMafia.com and April 28 according to Albert Fried's The Rise and Fall of the Jewish Gangster in America (see [13]). MadMax 12:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The Castellano family is the same thing as the Gambino family and the Luciano Family is the same as the Genovese family, so separate articles for aren't needed for those. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.76.109.174 ( talk • contribs)
I recently ran across the article Arthur Adler, however is this the same man who was killed by Sam DeStefano ? MadMax 14:58, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be any mention of Genovese mobsters Louis DeSorbo and John Matarazzo, online or otherwise. If anyone can provide sources, please do so. MadMax 21:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Crime and Criminal Biography: Organized crime Project‑class | ||||||||||
|
Hi. I'd to join your project in formation. I spent a summer interning at a law firm involved in organized crime work, and subsequently performed some academic work on the subject and have read very widely. This is a very interesting project and I think I can make a contribution.
Incidentally, the article on the National Crime Syndicate troubles me somewhat. I have attempted to improve it but it requires work and I wonder whether it should exist at all. There are no citations, but it appears to be based on old theories of organized crime, advanced by Hank Messick and a few others, that are unsubstantiated and based largely on conjecture. Messick's work on Lansky has been largely discredited as you know.
While it is certainly true that in the 1920s-1940s there were large non-Italian crime groups that worked together, the theory that there was a formal organization, along the lines of the Mafia Commission which of course was very much a reality, seems to be largely unproven.-- Mantanmoreland 15:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for adding. Speaking of pre-Prohibition -- have you read the Cornelius Willemse books -- Behind the Green Lights and A Cop Remembers? Which reminds me, I should check to see if there is an article on Willemse.-- Mantanmoreland 13:27, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
There wasn't any so I added an article on Willemse. I have to check the names of the gang members mentioned to be sure they conform to other Wiki articles.-- Mantanmoreland 14:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I just wandered through the FBI FOI Reading Room database, with all the files of Zwillman, Dutch Schultz and others, and I have to say that in general it is pretty useless stuff. Mostly news clips. Hoover just was not on the ball when it came to OC. There are references to a "crime syndicate" but it is mostly glommed from news clips.
Speaking of the Times, you can get early Times clips fairly inexpensively as you may know.-- Mantanmoreland 20:16, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
An issue regarding the nessessity of alphabetising lists has been brought up on Talk:List of Irish-American mobsters. It's been proposed the section headers be deleted, given the relatively small size of the list, or reformat the list altogether. Should this be proposed for the other lists ? MadMax 19:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Max, you may want to take a look at the Louis Buchalter article, which is a real mess. First of all it is totally unsourced. I just put a tag on that. Secondly it has statements in it that are dubious at best, such as saying that his birth name was "Buckhouse," which is not true I do believe, and that he was a member of the "Amboy Dukes" street gang, ditto.
The date of birth was contradicted by his FBI file, which is online, so I corrected it. However, I have held off on fixing other stuff before determining exactly where all that stuff came from. Though I have done a fair amount of reading on Buchalter in the past, the only source material that I have at present are those FBI files, which of course are problematic under WP:NOR.
Lepke was one of the most important crime figues of the century and it is a shame that this article, with all its statements of questionable accuracy, is being promulgated and distributed on the net. I really hope some editors with expertise on this, such as yourself, could take a look. Meanwhile I'll try digging out some source materials and also stick some "citation needed" tags on the thing.-- Mantanmoreland 15:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
As I noted previously, this article was a complete mess. It was completely unsourced, and above all it was inaccurate. It confused the NCS -- which was a supposed multi-ethnic crime combine in the 1930s-1940s -- with the Mafia itself. Thus there were confusing references to the Mafia Commission, which was within the Mafia and had no jurisidiction over non-Italian gangsters like Dutch Schultz etc.
AFter hesitating for some weeks I decided to just weigh in and remove the unsourced, unverifiable material and the clearly erroneous Mafia references. After cutting, there wasn't left with much. However, I think a smaller, essentially accurate article is better than a lengthy, totally erroneous one. In searching the Net I found that the erroneous article had been picked up by answers.com and google and spread all over the net!
Anyway, Max, if you or anyone has some verified sources that can be cited and footnoted, pls weigh in. I'm going to search through my own stuff. The FBI file on Lepke, incidentally, makes no reference to the NCS.-- Mantanmoreland 14:40, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Like similar articles such as the Irish Mob, this seems to me improperly named and requires a major cleanup. Any thoughts ? MadMax 15:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
See; Venero Mangano
It's pretty crap and unrefined but he has a page now so I'm happy. Tell me if you see any major flaws/possible improvements (i know there is a tonne of them). Alexbonaro 05:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
-- Alexbonaro 00:10, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I've begun an article on this famous Murder, Inc. prosecutor, who certainly deserves one. Please weigh in. One question: I unintentionally omitted the middle initial from the title. Will fix in the article but do you think it should be fixed in the title? Better to do now then later.-- Mantanmoreland 21:26, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I was curious however, as you've looked at a few FBI files, do you feel more acedemic based research is more reliable then general government reports regarding organized crime ? MadMax 08:01, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
A question has been raised by User:Will.i.am regarding the expansion of the Lenox Avenue Gang and possibly merging Gyp the Blood and other gang members into the article. MadMax 22:57, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
A question has been asked by anonymous User:140.147.180.165 in regards to the gangland slaying of Anthony Castellito. Aparently there are contradicting claims which has his murder take place in 1961 or 1971 and by Salvatore "Sally Bugs" Briguglio or by Anthony "Tony Pro" Provenzano. MadMax 19:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
In compiling several recent articles, I've run across a few inconsistant, if not confusing, facts.
So says the article on Trigger Mike [7]. Isn't that wrong?-- Mantanmoreland 16:41, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I've been trying to add additional information to Vincenzo Aloi, another article created by User:TheChin, since it was previously redirected as a stub to the Colombo crime family. However, the article doesn't clarify weither this is Vincenzo "Buster" Aloi or his son. I'm assuming its his son, given the 1923 birthdate, however the article give a much higher position within the Colombo family as consigliere (when he is stated as a New Jersey capo in 1988 [8]) ? MadMax 14:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Max, what are your thoughts on the Joey Rao situation? I've got some stuff from the Valachi bio I'd like to stick in, but I want tow ait until the articles are merged. They are definitely the same guy. -- Mantanmoreland 04:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The date of death for Abraham Friedman differs between AmericanMafia.com and April 28 according to Albert Fried's The Rise and Fall of the Jewish Gangster in America (see [13]). MadMax 12:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The Castellano family is the same thing as the Gambino family and the Luciano Family is the same as the Genovese family, so separate articles for aren't needed for those. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.76.109.174 ( talk • contribs)
I recently ran across the article Arthur Adler, however is this the same man who was killed by Sam DeStefano ? MadMax 14:58, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be any mention of Genovese mobsters Louis DeSorbo and John Matarazzo, online or otherwise. If anyone can provide sources, please do so. MadMax 21:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)