This page is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
Just a few recent updates regarding organized crime related news on wikipedia. Please feel free to add to the list if anyone runs across anything.
MadMax05:33, 29 December 2006 (UTC)reply
A concern has been raised on
Talk:Jewish-American organized crime regarding a controversal external link
HRP: The Jewish Mob in America written by a Dr. William Pierce (who may or may not be the neo-Nazi and author of
The Turner DiariesWilliam Luther Pierce). While it largely deals with the
Russian Mafia and charges its alleged predominatly Jewish membership, it apparently cites souces from the FBI and the NYPD. I've personally found the article to be at least partially inaccurate, however I've placed a template to encourage anyone able verify or disprove its credibility. This seems to be a controversal subject however I'm unsure of Wikipedia's policy oregarding this subject.
As many of you may be aware, study of organized crime and related subjects has long been subject to innacuracies, contradicting accounts, and underworld myth. This is of course has unfortunatly proved true of crime authors such as
Hank Messick,
Jay Robert Nash and others such as the
ghostwriters of the autobiography of Lucky Luciano. This has, of course, resulted in dispites and edit wars over content as seen in articles including
Mafia,
National Crime Syndicate,
Louis Buchalter,
Meyer Lansky and others. What I would propose is the compilation of reliable references and other sources as well as to weed out others which are considered unreliable. (see related discussion at:
project)
I've been involved in
WikiProject British Crime as of late, and it occured to me perhaps some sort of collaboration might be arrainged among crime related WikiProjects. Certainly there are well documented cases of British and Australian organized crime, the former having links to various syndicate casinos in London during the 1950s and 60s.
I've been thumbing through google looking for good, informative sites but there are very few out there. I was wondering if anyone has a good stie in particular or maybe a really good book I could pick up at the local library.
PeteShanosky01:47, 15 March 2006 (UTC)reply
Mr. Shanosky,
That's a good question, given the large number of websites available on the topic (many of which contradict each other, either directly or indirectly). There are, however, a select few websites from some of the more well known experts on organized crime such as Rick Porello's
AmericanMafia.com (not to be confused with the equally impressive
American "Mafia" by Thomas P. Hunt) or
CrimeMagazine.com. Other well known references include amateur writers such as
GangRule.com and Kenny Torrio's
Mafia-International. There are also several websites focusing on one specific area such as
The Tampa Mob: A story of the Trafficante crime family and
ClevelandMob.com. A recommended reference page would make a good addition to the page. I primarily use Jay Robert Nash's Encyclopedia of World Crime series and Carl Sifakis's Mafia Encyclopedia as well as other various sources. Most libraries, at least in the general area, should have at least one of those two authors.
MadMax01:37, 21 March 2006 (UTC)reply
Thanks, finally some good reference sites. Like you mentioned, a lot of the other sites seemed to disagree with each other, dispite all claiming to be experts on the subject.
PeteShanosky03:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)reply
Unfortunatly a large part of organized crime's history is based on underworld legends and popular rumors of the day, much of which is disputed even among traditional sources such as Henry Asbury's "The Gangs of New York" (as does other books which offer contradictory information). Much of the information on various websites are taken from these sources resulting in contradicting sources and untimatly adds to the confusion.
MadMax21:23, 22 March 2006 (UTC)reply
Jay Robert Nash sources
May I mention that Jay Robert Nash isn't a reliable source because it contains fake entries, biaised information and false statements in order to sue other people copying from his material.
Lincher18:16, 1 May 2006 (UTC)reply
This does raise a valid point. Should Nash be removed as a reliable source, as he is used in many sources both online and otherwise ? Even I can admit to various errors within the Encyclopedia of World Crime series, although many of these may simply be typos and other printing errors given the later revised editions. Also, for the three sole members who may or may not be reading this, it would be greatly appreciated if using Nash as a secondary reference and, if possible, to list any recent organized contributions using Nash as a reference to either
myself or
Lincher.
MadMax19:24, 1 May 2006 (UTC)reply
WikiProject Merge and/or future collaberation with
WikiProject Mafia
In attempt to try and jump start a discussion here, it's recently come to my attention that a similar project was started by
User:Extofer in March 2006. I have spoken with him and he seems to be interested in at least a possible collaboration with this project in the future. The "Honorary Members" section not withstanding, as neither groups have a significant amount of members of the five needed to become an official project (with three members including myself and Extofer as the sole member of his), would anyone have any objections to asking Extofer if he would consider merging both groups ? I certainly don't see a conflict of interest on this end as a large focus of this project focuses on much of the American Mafia.
MadMax19:35, 1 May 2006 (UTC)reply
It sounds good to me. It would increase effectiveness of both projects and I can't see it creating any problems, unless for some reason we do not get along, which I seriously doubt will be the case. The two projects themselves are quite similar and I like the idea of a merge.
PeteShanosky23:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)reply
While it looks like there are no objections however, as the project page was recently deleted I'm unsure what the status of the project (or the project leader's interest) is at the moment. I'll try to contact him on his talk page to see what I can find out.
MadMax06:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)reply
List reorganization
An issue regarding the nessessity of alphabetising lists has been brought up on
Talk:List of Irish-American mobsters. It's been proposed the section headers be deleted, given the relatively small size of the list, or reformat the list altogether. Should this be proposed for the other lists ?
MadMax19:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)reply
Possible References
Considering how easily organized crime falls into the realm of myth, perhaps first-hand accounts should be considered for references? The recent turnover of ex-members of organized crime is a great resource. Americanmafia.com, though it can be full of posturing "wanna-bes" has many articles featuring discussion with ex-members or associates of the American Mafia (Sicilian.) I found
this article to be especially educational, and the question-answer sessions would be a great Wikipedia resource. In my opinion, the
Mafia article needs a lot of work, mainly in organization of the talk page communication and more control of changes. It's understandable not everyone has time to read a whole book, which even then makes many assumptions, unless written by an ex-member, so the on-line interviews may be helpful.
--
Somethingironic12:31, 24 June 2006 (UTC)reply
Not a problem Alexbonaro. I'm hoping the 2006 page will serve as a model for the rest of the timeline entries eventually.
MadMax06:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)reply
This page is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
Just a few recent updates regarding organized crime related news on wikipedia. Please feel free to add to the list if anyone runs across anything.
MadMax05:33, 29 December 2006 (UTC)reply
A concern has been raised on
Talk:Jewish-American organized crime regarding a controversal external link
HRP: The Jewish Mob in America written by a Dr. William Pierce (who may or may not be the neo-Nazi and author of
The Turner DiariesWilliam Luther Pierce). While it largely deals with the
Russian Mafia and charges its alleged predominatly Jewish membership, it apparently cites souces from the FBI and the NYPD. I've personally found the article to be at least partially inaccurate, however I've placed a template to encourage anyone able verify or disprove its credibility. This seems to be a controversal subject however I'm unsure of Wikipedia's policy oregarding this subject.
As many of you may be aware, study of organized crime and related subjects has long been subject to innacuracies, contradicting accounts, and underworld myth. This is of course has unfortunatly proved true of crime authors such as
Hank Messick,
Jay Robert Nash and others such as the
ghostwriters of the autobiography of Lucky Luciano. This has, of course, resulted in dispites and edit wars over content as seen in articles including
Mafia,
National Crime Syndicate,
Louis Buchalter,
Meyer Lansky and others. What I would propose is the compilation of reliable references and other sources as well as to weed out others which are considered unreliable. (see related discussion at:
project)
I've been involved in
WikiProject British Crime as of late, and it occured to me perhaps some sort of collaboration might be arrainged among crime related WikiProjects. Certainly there are well documented cases of British and Australian organized crime, the former having links to various syndicate casinos in London during the 1950s and 60s.
I've been thumbing through google looking for good, informative sites but there are very few out there. I was wondering if anyone has a good stie in particular or maybe a really good book I could pick up at the local library.
PeteShanosky01:47, 15 March 2006 (UTC)reply
Mr. Shanosky,
That's a good question, given the large number of websites available on the topic (many of which contradict each other, either directly or indirectly). There are, however, a select few websites from some of the more well known experts on organized crime such as Rick Porello's
AmericanMafia.com (not to be confused with the equally impressive
American "Mafia" by Thomas P. Hunt) or
CrimeMagazine.com. Other well known references include amateur writers such as
GangRule.com and Kenny Torrio's
Mafia-International. There are also several websites focusing on one specific area such as
The Tampa Mob: A story of the Trafficante crime family and
ClevelandMob.com. A recommended reference page would make a good addition to the page. I primarily use Jay Robert Nash's Encyclopedia of World Crime series and Carl Sifakis's Mafia Encyclopedia as well as other various sources. Most libraries, at least in the general area, should have at least one of those two authors.
MadMax01:37, 21 March 2006 (UTC)reply
Thanks, finally some good reference sites. Like you mentioned, a lot of the other sites seemed to disagree with each other, dispite all claiming to be experts on the subject.
PeteShanosky03:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)reply
Unfortunatly a large part of organized crime's history is based on underworld legends and popular rumors of the day, much of which is disputed even among traditional sources such as Henry Asbury's "The Gangs of New York" (as does other books which offer contradictory information). Much of the information on various websites are taken from these sources resulting in contradicting sources and untimatly adds to the confusion.
MadMax21:23, 22 March 2006 (UTC)reply
Jay Robert Nash sources
May I mention that Jay Robert Nash isn't a reliable source because it contains fake entries, biaised information and false statements in order to sue other people copying from his material.
Lincher18:16, 1 May 2006 (UTC)reply
This does raise a valid point. Should Nash be removed as a reliable source, as he is used in many sources both online and otherwise ? Even I can admit to various errors within the Encyclopedia of World Crime series, although many of these may simply be typos and other printing errors given the later revised editions. Also, for the three sole members who may or may not be reading this, it would be greatly appreciated if using Nash as a secondary reference and, if possible, to list any recent organized contributions using Nash as a reference to either
myself or
Lincher.
MadMax19:24, 1 May 2006 (UTC)reply
WikiProject Merge and/or future collaberation with
WikiProject Mafia
In attempt to try and jump start a discussion here, it's recently come to my attention that a similar project was started by
User:Extofer in March 2006. I have spoken with him and he seems to be interested in at least a possible collaboration with this project in the future. The "Honorary Members" section not withstanding, as neither groups have a significant amount of members of the five needed to become an official project (with three members including myself and Extofer as the sole member of his), would anyone have any objections to asking Extofer if he would consider merging both groups ? I certainly don't see a conflict of interest on this end as a large focus of this project focuses on much of the American Mafia.
MadMax19:35, 1 May 2006 (UTC)reply
It sounds good to me. It would increase effectiveness of both projects and I can't see it creating any problems, unless for some reason we do not get along, which I seriously doubt will be the case. The two projects themselves are quite similar and I like the idea of a merge.
PeteShanosky23:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)reply
While it looks like there are no objections however, as the project page was recently deleted I'm unsure what the status of the project (or the project leader's interest) is at the moment. I'll try to contact him on his talk page to see what I can find out.
MadMax06:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)reply
List reorganization
An issue regarding the nessessity of alphabetising lists has been brought up on
Talk:List of Irish-American mobsters. It's been proposed the section headers be deleted, given the relatively small size of the list, or reformat the list altogether. Should this be proposed for the other lists ?
MadMax19:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)reply
Possible References
Considering how easily organized crime falls into the realm of myth, perhaps first-hand accounts should be considered for references? The recent turnover of ex-members of organized crime is a great resource. Americanmafia.com, though it can be full of posturing "wanna-bes" has many articles featuring discussion with ex-members or associates of the American Mafia (Sicilian.) I found
this article to be especially educational, and the question-answer sessions would be a great Wikipedia resource. In my opinion, the
Mafia article needs a lot of work, mainly in organization of the talk page communication and more control of changes. It's understandable not everyone has time to read a whole book, which even then makes many assumptions, unless written by an ex-member, so the on-line interviews may be helpful.
--
Somethingironic12:31, 24 June 2006 (UTC)reply
Not a problem Alexbonaro. I'm hoping the 2006 page will serve as a model for the rest of the timeline entries eventually.
MadMax06:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)reply