![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
What's the protocol for using sound excerpts? Tony 00:06, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
It's less a protocol issue than a copyright issue. Sound excerpts are definitely desired, but for almost all commercially-produced recordings the only way we can use them is quoting short snippets under Wikipedia:Fair use (and I'm not an expert on copyright; I don't recall how much is acceptable), and even that discouraged. Recordings made by Wikipedians of public domain music are encouraged, but as much as I think a Wikipedian orchestra would be a fine thing, the airfare to fly us all somewhere for a recording session, well... There are sources of PD music recordings available, if very few, and whatever you can find, do put it in. Mindspillage (spill yours?)
I can probably find some good recordings for quite a few composer articles: I suspect that some recording companies and artists would be pleased to be promoted (I presume their name and a link to their web site can be provided ...). Tony 00:02, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia's growing number of composer articles lacks sufficient use of sound excerpts. This is a pity, because sound excerpts could contribute to Wikipedia's unique presence on the Internet. There are a number of issues that concern the use of these excerpts. I welcome comments or edits to this section. Tony 00:36, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Copyright law is in a mess. However, it appears that under fair use provisions, we can use short sound excerpts from commercial recordings without gaining permission, but only if the following matters are observed.
When uploading the sound file, use the copyright tag Template:Music sample
This is what will then appear on the info page:
![]() | This is a sound
sample from a song, movie, sound effect, or other audio recording that is currently copyrighted. The copyright for it may be owned by the company who made it or the author. For a song, it may also be owned by the person(s) who performed it. It is believed that the use of this work qualifies as
fair use under
United States copyright law when used on the
English-language Wikipedia, hosted on servers in the U.S. by the non-profit
Wikimedia Foundation, where:
A more detailed fair use rationale should be provided by the user who uploaded this sample.
Any other uses of this sample, on Wikipedia or elsewhere, may be
copyright infringement. If you are the copyright holder of this sample and you feel that its use here does not fall under "fair use", please see
Wikipedia:Copyright problems for information on how to proceed. To the uploader: If this is a free, non-copyrighted audio recording, please post it to Wikimedia Commons instead. |
![]() | ||
|
Do not use longer excerpts or whole tracks unless you have written permission to do so from the recording company. It is probably best if this permission explicitly allows the excerpt to be used under 'fair use' provisions; the permission should specify tracks and/or durations; the advantage is that the company can retain copyright at the same time. You need to state in the information box that the written permission has been given; it's probably a good idea to offer to provide a copy on request, or to paste into the info box the relevant part of the written permission (although this may have privacy implications).
If you're lucky enough to obtain written permission to use a whole track, provide the same Detailed attribution on the information page as above, including:
When uploading the sound file, use the copyright tag Template:PermissionAndFairUse
This is what will then appear on the info page:
{{ PermissionAndFairUse }}
For an example, see the excerpt at the top of
JS Bach; hit 'info' to see the information that relates to 'fair use' of the track at the top. Please note that it's hard to get permission from companies. We probably need a 'boilerplate' letter for the purpose of seeking permision. NB This recording has been removed, because User Tony1 successfully arranged for the copyright permission to be withdrawn for this item.
Tony
20:29, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
All excerpts should be of high-quality recordings, in my view; it's better to use no recordings at all if very good ones can't be found.
Short excerpts may be a valuable component of a composer article if they give readers a taste of the composer's style in general, or illustrate certain aspects of that style. It's best if you can find an excerpt that fall naturally into a short duration; otherwise, the next best arrangement is to start at the opening of a track (or musical section) and fade down after about 30 seconds. Try to avoid unpleasant glitches at either end of the excerpt. Fade ups at the start of an excerpt are less effective.
Excerpts can be closely integrated with the flow of the text if they appear at strategic locations. Try to make the visual appearance of the link as unobtrusive as possible: short titles help in that respect. Consider rationing their number: don't try to be comprehensive; leave the reader wanting more.
Large repositories of longer recordings at the bottom of a composer article may add little to the value of an article.
Please add to this section. Tony 07:31, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to put forward the following points that contributors may wish to consider covering in composer articles. Of course, the needs of every article are different, so this is only a 'shell', a template that needs to be adapted for each article. Some of this information may be useful at the opening, but in not much detail; most of it should probably be located in a separate section on style.
Please comment on and/or modify this list as you see fit. Tony 03:01, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
I've created a new infobox to detail information on classical works in a similiar manner to the infobox for music albums. An example can be seen at Piano Concerto No. 3 (Rachmaninoff). I would welcome any comments at Template talk:Classical work infobox. Cheers! TreveX talk 00:20, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart has been listed as a FARC. -- RobertG ♬ talk 10:56, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone object to moving them to the project page? Tony 10:09, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
We were the recipients of a not-entirely-favourable review in the U.K. publication The Guardian ( [1]). The criticisms of the Reich article I think are reasonable, and it could use a rewrite. I'm not sure how much time I'll have this week -- "real-world" issues, and probably some of you can relate -- else I'd do it myself. If no one else gets to it I'll attempt to do so soon. Antandrus (talk) 15:28, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, the link to that Guardian article should be splashed around WP to convince contributors of the need to raise the standard of prose, among other things. Tony 16:47, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I was looking for formatting style somewhere here, but I couldn't find anything, so I'd like to propose a couple of things:
What does everybody think? TheProject 17:20, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I'm a member of the Wikipedia:Version_1.0_Editorial_Team, which is looking to identify quality articles in Wikipedia for future publication on CD or paper. We recently began assessing using these criteria, and we are looking for A-Class and good B-Class articles, with no POV or copyright problems. I saw your list of 10 FAs on the project page, this is useful. Would Johann Sebastian Bach and Henry Cowell rank as A-Class yet, in your opinion? (These don't need to be FACs, merely at a stage where FAC might be considered) Can you suggest some other A or decent B-class articles we might use? Please post your suggestions here. Thanks a lot, Walkerma 04:46, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm hoping that Bach will be up to FAC standard over the next few months, but I don't think it will happen promptly—there are major issues to resolve with respect to the 'style' section. Tony 22:44, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Dear fellow participants
I wonder whether other people feel the need, as I do, for advice on the inclusion of score excerpts in composer articles. I wrote the advice on including audio excerpts, but I don't have the knowledge to do the same for scores.
Anyone got any ideas?
Tony 02:40, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Do we have any kind of policy about full scores? I was following Sesquialtera II's suggestions and the example set by illustrations from Symphony No. 5 (Beethoven) and did a few images for Ariadne musica and Johann Pachelbel in Sibelius 4. Right now I've got a problem with the "Preludes" section of the latter. I was going to rewrite it and add an example of a one-of-a-kind writing Pachelbel used in a single prelude. I did the illustration using Sibelius and, um.. well, its 9 bars and its the whole prelude. So my illustration is like, the full score. I can't think of a nice way to quote less (its hard to make a logical excerpt from a 9-bar piece). What do you think, would it be acceptable to include it anyway? I'm thinking maybe a rationale with "if the owner of the copyright wishes to challenge my use, I will be happy to remove it promptly, with apology." included is a good idea, but it seems that I can't write one myself. Any ideas? Jashiin 13:39, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I apologise in advance if I am bringing up something that has been worked through before. In pitching in to help get the JSB article up to FA quality, I have been putting together some subsidiary (daughter) articles that will eliminate existing redlinks from the principal article. This has raised the issue of how to title specific composition articles. In the case of Bach, there appear to be four or five different ways of doing it and I would appreciate any feedback about the preferred approach.
It seems to me based on a perusal of articles within the taxa of individual compositions that the preferred system is to composition title with (Composer). Consistency, however, is sorely lacking and the system seems to be adhered to principally where confusion over other competing works bearing the same name may exist, being in other cases elided (
Violin Concerto No. 1 (Mozart), for example v.
Exsultate, Jubilate, or
Symphony No. 4 (Beethoven) v.
Fidelio). Thus, in the case I ran into,
English Suites links to the Bach keyboard works. However, when I put up the article for the Partitas, I named it
Partitas for keyboard (825–830), bracketing the BWV, per what I have observed other articles about specific Bach compositions. However, this clearly should be changed for the sake of consistency, as should a host of existing articles on Bach compositions which are all over the map with regard to a consistent naming procedure.
Hence, is the preference here for following the example of articles on works by other composers? English Suites (J.S. Bach) or in the case of Bach, would the BWV be useful to list? English Suites (BWV 806-811) (J.S. Bach)
Eusebeus 14:03, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
In any case, please use an n dash, not a hyphen, to represent "to": e.g., Partitas for keyboard (825–830) Tony 13:13, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I've read a good bit of the WP:NAME, and it seems to me that the general preference is to make it easy for a page to be linked to and searched for with the least amount of redirects possible. In English wikipedia this seems to mean no accents in the title, with a redirect from the title with the accents to the title with no accents. There are a good number of composers who seem to have accents in their titles, eg. François Couperin, Frédéric Chopin. I propose moving all such titles to their unaccented name, with the accents included in the first mention of them in the intro, eg the title is Francois Couperin but the first sentence has François Couperin. I mention it here so it doesn't have to be discussed separately on each composer page. Makemi 18:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
I've put the article Trobairitz, about medieval women troubadours, up for Peer review. I would appreciate any feedback. Thanks, Mak emi 06:20, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
For the past few months the Opera Project has been working on articles on composers. There is a list of 389 articles and stubs on The opera corpus. Could there be some useful synergy with the Composers Project? Many of the biographical articles need developing from the non-operatic, musical point of view.
Kleinzach 10:53, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
WikiProject Arts
Announcing the creation of
WikiProject Arts, an effort to create a collaboration between all arts projects and artistically-minded Wikipedians in order to improve arts coverage. If you think you can help, please join us!
HAM
17:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Both Mozart and Liszt have been nominated on Wikipedia:Article Improvement Drive; you're probably familliar with the process, but basically the article with the most votes at the end of the week becomes a collaboration between various wikipedians to make it up to the standard of a featured article. Slightly more complicated than that, but there's more info on the page. I think this would be a great opportunity to bring more wikipedians in on these articles and could be a great way to improve them on more formal issues such as referencing, writing, etc. Some more votes would really be useful, thanks M A Mason 15:11, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I didn't know if you guys already had a userbox for the group or not. This one's just a modification of {{ user composition}}. (Thanks to Helohe for the original). If you don't like userboxes, just pretend this isn't here. n.n ~Kylu ( u| t) 21:20, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
![]() |
This user is a member of Wikipedia:WikiProject Composers. |
Some substantial editing of this article is going on - possibly by people who have worked on the publishing project. Does anyone know what this is all about? - Kleinzach 08:47, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Johann Sebastian Bach appears to be a damn fine article. I have listed it for a peer review.
Wikipedia:Peer review/Johann Sebastian Bach
SilkTork 14:39, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I suggest to use a logo at the end of the articles of this project:
This
Composer article is part of the
Composers Project
We have had problems decided the nationality of composers - Handel, Christoph Willibald Gluck and Florian Leopold Gassmann come to mind - and we have just had a debate about Ukrainian/Russian/Soviet identity at Talk:Ivan Kozlovsky. I am wondering if we could work out a policy on this? Here are my ideas (so far):
1. Nationality should refer to national identity, in other words the national group with which the person identified, not the state of which the person was a citizen or subject.
2. Nationality should not be anachronistic/retrospective, i.e. in the case of historic artists it should not be defined by present-day borders and states but by contemporary ones.
3. If there is any doubt about the nationality, we should be inclusive and use a double designation both in the introduction and in the categories.
I'd be grateful for comments. - Kleinzach 22:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
What's the protocol for using sound excerpts? Tony 00:06, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
It's less a protocol issue than a copyright issue. Sound excerpts are definitely desired, but for almost all commercially-produced recordings the only way we can use them is quoting short snippets under Wikipedia:Fair use (and I'm not an expert on copyright; I don't recall how much is acceptable), and even that discouraged. Recordings made by Wikipedians of public domain music are encouraged, but as much as I think a Wikipedian orchestra would be a fine thing, the airfare to fly us all somewhere for a recording session, well... There are sources of PD music recordings available, if very few, and whatever you can find, do put it in. Mindspillage (spill yours?)
I can probably find some good recordings for quite a few composer articles: I suspect that some recording companies and artists would be pleased to be promoted (I presume their name and a link to their web site can be provided ...). Tony 00:02, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia's growing number of composer articles lacks sufficient use of sound excerpts. This is a pity, because sound excerpts could contribute to Wikipedia's unique presence on the Internet. There are a number of issues that concern the use of these excerpts. I welcome comments or edits to this section. Tony 00:36, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Copyright law is in a mess. However, it appears that under fair use provisions, we can use short sound excerpts from commercial recordings without gaining permission, but only if the following matters are observed.
When uploading the sound file, use the copyright tag Template:Music sample
This is what will then appear on the info page:
![]() | This is a sound
sample from a song, movie, sound effect, or other audio recording that is currently copyrighted. The copyright for it may be owned by the company who made it or the author. For a song, it may also be owned by the person(s) who performed it. It is believed that the use of this work qualifies as
fair use under
United States copyright law when used on the
English-language Wikipedia, hosted on servers in the U.S. by the non-profit
Wikimedia Foundation, where:
A more detailed fair use rationale should be provided by the user who uploaded this sample.
Any other uses of this sample, on Wikipedia or elsewhere, may be
copyright infringement. If you are the copyright holder of this sample and you feel that its use here does not fall under "fair use", please see
Wikipedia:Copyright problems for information on how to proceed. To the uploader: If this is a free, non-copyrighted audio recording, please post it to Wikimedia Commons instead. |
![]() | ||
|
Do not use longer excerpts or whole tracks unless you have written permission to do so from the recording company. It is probably best if this permission explicitly allows the excerpt to be used under 'fair use' provisions; the permission should specify tracks and/or durations; the advantage is that the company can retain copyright at the same time. You need to state in the information box that the written permission has been given; it's probably a good idea to offer to provide a copy on request, or to paste into the info box the relevant part of the written permission (although this may have privacy implications).
If you're lucky enough to obtain written permission to use a whole track, provide the same Detailed attribution on the information page as above, including:
When uploading the sound file, use the copyright tag Template:PermissionAndFairUse
This is what will then appear on the info page:
{{ PermissionAndFairUse }}
For an example, see the excerpt at the top of
JS Bach; hit 'info' to see the information that relates to 'fair use' of the track at the top. Please note that it's hard to get permission from companies. We probably need a 'boilerplate' letter for the purpose of seeking permision. NB This recording has been removed, because User Tony1 successfully arranged for the copyright permission to be withdrawn for this item.
Tony
20:29, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
All excerpts should be of high-quality recordings, in my view; it's better to use no recordings at all if very good ones can't be found.
Short excerpts may be a valuable component of a composer article if they give readers a taste of the composer's style in general, or illustrate certain aspects of that style. It's best if you can find an excerpt that fall naturally into a short duration; otherwise, the next best arrangement is to start at the opening of a track (or musical section) and fade down after about 30 seconds. Try to avoid unpleasant glitches at either end of the excerpt. Fade ups at the start of an excerpt are less effective.
Excerpts can be closely integrated with the flow of the text if they appear at strategic locations. Try to make the visual appearance of the link as unobtrusive as possible: short titles help in that respect. Consider rationing their number: don't try to be comprehensive; leave the reader wanting more.
Large repositories of longer recordings at the bottom of a composer article may add little to the value of an article.
Please add to this section. Tony 07:31, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to put forward the following points that contributors may wish to consider covering in composer articles. Of course, the needs of every article are different, so this is only a 'shell', a template that needs to be adapted for each article. Some of this information may be useful at the opening, but in not much detail; most of it should probably be located in a separate section on style.
Please comment on and/or modify this list as you see fit. Tony 03:01, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
I've created a new infobox to detail information on classical works in a similiar manner to the infobox for music albums. An example can be seen at Piano Concerto No. 3 (Rachmaninoff). I would welcome any comments at Template talk:Classical work infobox. Cheers! TreveX talk 00:20, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart has been listed as a FARC. -- RobertG ♬ talk 10:56, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone object to moving them to the project page? Tony 10:09, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
We were the recipients of a not-entirely-favourable review in the U.K. publication The Guardian ( [1]). The criticisms of the Reich article I think are reasonable, and it could use a rewrite. I'm not sure how much time I'll have this week -- "real-world" issues, and probably some of you can relate -- else I'd do it myself. If no one else gets to it I'll attempt to do so soon. Antandrus (talk) 15:28, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, the link to that Guardian article should be splashed around WP to convince contributors of the need to raise the standard of prose, among other things. Tony 16:47, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I was looking for formatting style somewhere here, but I couldn't find anything, so I'd like to propose a couple of things:
What does everybody think? TheProject 17:20, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I'm a member of the Wikipedia:Version_1.0_Editorial_Team, which is looking to identify quality articles in Wikipedia for future publication on CD or paper. We recently began assessing using these criteria, and we are looking for A-Class and good B-Class articles, with no POV or copyright problems. I saw your list of 10 FAs on the project page, this is useful. Would Johann Sebastian Bach and Henry Cowell rank as A-Class yet, in your opinion? (These don't need to be FACs, merely at a stage where FAC might be considered) Can you suggest some other A or decent B-class articles we might use? Please post your suggestions here. Thanks a lot, Walkerma 04:46, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm hoping that Bach will be up to FAC standard over the next few months, but I don't think it will happen promptly—there are major issues to resolve with respect to the 'style' section. Tony 22:44, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Dear fellow participants
I wonder whether other people feel the need, as I do, for advice on the inclusion of score excerpts in composer articles. I wrote the advice on including audio excerpts, but I don't have the knowledge to do the same for scores.
Anyone got any ideas?
Tony 02:40, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Do we have any kind of policy about full scores? I was following Sesquialtera II's suggestions and the example set by illustrations from Symphony No. 5 (Beethoven) and did a few images for Ariadne musica and Johann Pachelbel in Sibelius 4. Right now I've got a problem with the "Preludes" section of the latter. I was going to rewrite it and add an example of a one-of-a-kind writing Pachelbel used in a single prelude. I did the illustration using Sibelius and, um.. well, its 9 bars and its the whole prelude. So my illustration is like, the full score. I can't think of a nice way to quote less (its hard to make a logical excerpt from a 9-bar piece). What do you think, would it be acceptable to include it anyway? I'm thinking maybe a rationale with "if the owner of the copyright wishes to challenge my use, I will be happy to remove it promptly, with apology." included is a good idea, but it seems that I can't write one myself. Any ideas? Jashiin 13:39, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I apologise in advance if I am bringing up something that has been worked through before. In pitching in to help get the JSB article up to FA quality, I have been putting together some subsidiary (daughter) articles that will eliminate existing redlinks from the principal article. This has raised the issue of how to title specific composition articles. In the case of Bach, there appear to be four or five different ways of doing it and I would appreciate any feedback about the preferred approach.
It seems to me based on a perusal of articles within the taxa of individual compositions that the preferred system is to composition title with (Composer). Consistency, however, is sorely lacking and the system seems to be adhered to principally where confusion over other competing works bearing the same name may exist, being in other cases elided (
Violin Concerto No. 1 (Mozart), for example v.
Exsultate, Jubilate, or
Symphony No. 4 (Beethoven) v.
Fidelio). Thus, in the case I ran into,
English Suites links to the Bach keyboard works. However, when I put up the article for the Partitas, I named it
Partitas for keyboard (825–830), bracketing the BWV, per what I have observed other articles about specific Bach compositions. However, this clearly should be changed for the sake of consistency, as should a host of existing articles on Bach compositions which are all over the map with regard to a consistent naming procedure.
Hence, is the preference here for following the example of articles on works by other composers? English Suites (J.S. Bach) or in the case of Bach, would the BWV be useful to list? English Suites (BWV 806-811) (J.S. Bach)
Eusebeus 14:03, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
In any case, please use an n dash, not a hyphen, to represent "to": e.g., Partitas for keyboard (825–830) Tony 13:13, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I've read a good bit of the WP:NAME, and it seems to me that the general preference is to make it easy for a page to be linked to and searched for with the least amount of redirects possible. In English wikipedia this seems to mean no accents in the title, with a redirect from the title with the accents to the title with no accents. There are a good number of composers who seem to have accents in their titles, eg. François Couperin, Frédéric Chopin. I propose moving all such titles to their unaccented name, with the accents included in the first mention of them in the intro, eg the title is Francois Couperin but the first sentence has François Couperin. I mention it here so it doesn't have to be discussed separately on each composer page. Makemi 18:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
I've put the article Trobairitz, about medieval women troubadours, up for Peer review. I would appreciate any feedback. Thanks, Mak emi 06:20, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
For the past few months the Opera Project has been working on articles on composers. There is a list of 389 articles and stubs on The opera corpus. Could there be some useful synergy with the Composers Project? Many of the biographical articles need developing from the non-operatic, musical point of view.
Kleinzach 10:53, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
WikiProject Arts
Announcing the creation of
WikiProject Arts, an effort to create a collaboration between all arts projects and artistically-minded Wikipedians in order to improve arts coverage. If you think you can help, please join us!
HAM
17:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Both Mozart and Liszt have been nominated on Wikipedia:Article Improvement Drive; you're probably familliar with the process, but basically the article with the most votes at the end of the week becomes a collaboration between various wikipedians to make it up to the standard of a featured article. Slightly more complicated than that, but there's more info on the page. I think this would be a great opportunity to bring more wikipedians in on these articles and could be a great way to improve them on more formal issues such as referencing, writing, etc. Some more votes would really be useful, thanks M A Mason 15:11, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I didn't know if you guys already had a userbox for the group or not. This one's just a modification of {{ user composition}}. (Thanks to Helohe for the original). If you don't like userboxes, just pretend this isn't here. n.n ~Kylu ( u| t) 21:20, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
![]() |
This user is a member of Wikipedia:WikiProject Composers. |
Some substantial editing of this article is going on - possibly by people who have worked on the publishing project. Does anyone know what this is all about? - Kleinzach 08:47, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Johann Sebastian Bach appears to be a damn fine article. I have listed it for a peer review.
Wikipedia:Peer review/Johann Sebastian Bach
SilkTork 14:39, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I suggest to use a logo at the end of the articles of this project:
This
Composer article is part of the
Composers Project
We have had problems decided the nationality of composers - Handel, Christoph Willibald Gluck and Florian Leopold Gassmann come to mind - and we have just had a debate about Ukrainian/Russian/Soviet identity at Talk:Ivan Kozlovsky. I am wondering if we could work out a policy on this? Here are my ideas (so far):
1. Nationality should refer to national identity, in other words the national group with which the person identified, not the state of which the person was a citizen or subject.
2. Nationality should not be anachronistic/retrospective, i.e. in the case of historic artists it should not be defined by present-day borders and states but by contemporary ones.
3. If there is any doubt about the nationality, we should be inclusive and use a double designation both in the introduction and in the categories.
I'd be grateful for comments. - Kleinzach 22:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)