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I recently added infoboxes to some composer articles (Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven) and was promptly reverted and directed to this discussion. I have read the archived discussions above, and agree with some of the concerns (mainly that erroneous information was being included, and that nuanced items -- like Beethoven's date of birth -- were not given proper treatment). With the current use of footnotes within infoboxes, however, these shouldn't really be an issue anymore. In addition, any editor who spots misinformation is free to make a correction. In my opinion, I see no reason why composers should not have an infobox. Moreover, after reading the discussion, I was unable to spot at which point consensus was reached on this issue. As a classical music connoisseur / wikipedia editor, I see no good reason at this point to exclude infoboxes from composer articles -- TrustTruth ( talk) 23:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Like I said, I have read the archived discussions of this subject and noted that my points have already been raised. I also noted that there was no clear consensus, despite what has been stated on the project page. Even after reading the archives, I still frankly don't understand the rationale behind denying infobox usage for classical music articles, while allowing them for pop music. A person is a person, regardless of genre. Please help me understand. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 02:59, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I think it comes down to a simple NPOV issue. Kleinzach states that "Great composers such as Mozart are unique" and cannot be condensed into a box. Personally I agree that he was a great composer and also that he was unique. However, please consult Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias. From a pure worldwide view of the subject, Mozart is a man who lived in Europe in the 18th Century and is notable to those with an understanding of European culture. He has a birth date, death date, country of origin and occupation. Those salient facts are indisputable and, presented in an infobox, would help a non-European (or an individual not familiar with European culture) access the basics about him. Is Mozart a greater and more-unique person than, say, Gandhi? Surely Gandhi is too complicated to box in as well, yet his article uses one. From an unbiased, worldwide perspective, Mozart (or any other composer) is not too special for an infobox. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 18:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
The infobox that TrustTruth earlier put up at Joseph Haydn (see [1]) is worth examining as a case study in connection with this debate. It contains the following three errors:
For details concerning these matters, please consult the article text and the sources it cites.
I don't mean to make an ad hominem argument here (though I admit, I do feel pretty indignant at TrustTruth's level of carelessness). Rather, I bring it up because I think this example is only the tip of the iceberg. Composer infoboxes quite generally attract inaccurate editing, and that the mistakes are very hard to fix within the rigid format of the infoboxes. This is a good reason, I think, not to have them. Opus33 ( talk) 17:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
With trepidation I've put in an infobox for Joseph Haydn which I believe does not include anything inaccurate or excessively detailed/trivial. I would like to be able to add a line that would look like this:
but unfortunately these templates don't let you change the headings. If anyone knows where I could learn how to do this I would appreciate knowing.
Following Centurion's advice, I left out the instruments as trivial (Haydn was known to be a merely competent performer, and was famous only as a composer), the "occupation" as too obvious to include, and the genre as inappropriate to Haydn's day (the whole idea of "classical" music didn't really exist until a few decades later). I also find it very odd that the template specifies place of birth but not place of death (who makes up these templates anyway?), so I made that symmetrical by using the text fields. Cheers, Opus33 ( talk) 23:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I would like to mention User:Turangalila/sandbox/Infobox composer as a great starting point for an infobox. However I would like something slightly more subtle - nevertheless the completely optional fields seem excellent and notice how the infobox is geared to a composer. Centy – reply• contribs – 01:33, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
OK Template:Classical composer is up and running. I have included it tenuously in two articles, Haydn and Beethoven. Please tell me what you think. Centy – reply• contribs – 03:15, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
This discussion has become a little fragmented, so I'm going to recombine threads here. I am going to refute the arguments presented by currently the only editor who is refusing to budge one inch on this issue and even consider developing an infobox.
Let's review the reasons why the templates were deleted in the three nominations.
Reasons for deletion - 3rd Third Deletion:
†Reasons for deletion - 2nd Deletion (2 votes incl. nominator):
‡Reasons for deletion - 1st Deletion (1 vote by nominator):
Kleinzach - The argument for deletion is incredibly shaky if you actually look at it (in my book its non-existent - it hinges on consensus against it which has gone, its lack of use which only stems from editors removing it personally from articles and previous deletions all of which no longer apply). Just because some has been deleted doesn't mean in shouldn't be recreated - especially if on the evidence above it was deleted for all the wrong reasons (as I see from the chain of logic above). By the way, have moved infobox to Template:Infobox classical composer to be more in line with other infobox namings. Centy – reply• contribs – 10:41, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Kleinzach claims there is a consensus against infoboxes established by 30 or 40 editors.
That's a out and out lie, Kleinzach. First you claim 20+ editors, now its 30 or 40? Re-read the discussion yourself, there were less than 40 editors in the discussion and quite a fair number were quite for the infobox until Andy Mabbett single handedly alienated all the pro-infobox people (I note a lot of pro support was thrown out by comments such as canvassing or not a regular editor). Besides in this new debate, you have yet to find 1 single editor who has you staunch view of anti-infobox at whatever cost, no matter what. That's not 20+ editor consensus. That's a bogus past consensus. Centy – reply• contribs – 11:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
“ | As I think you will remember the Biography Project Infobox page gives this advice: "Word of caution! Certain biography articles have opposition camps on infoboxes. With the current work groups, it is generally safe, but, for instance, scientist articles can have some heated debates on these. So, if you are intending to apply one of the templates to an article about a scientist, academic, or classical composer, musician or singer, first ask on the Talk page." So it's not just the classical music projects that object to bio-infoboxes - let's shoot down that canard right now! | ” |
— Kleinzach |
Erm, have you checked any scientist article lately (like Einstein, Newton, Euler, Heisenberg, Feynmann). They all have infoboxes. The line about scientists and academics is ancient and now totally incorrect. In fact the only biographical articles across all of WP:BIO that are anti-infoboxes are composers and classical musicians. Classical musician infoboxes are blocked under the same "consensus" being discussed right now. So in fact we have just demonstrated that yes composers are the special case in some way. Why? Centy – reply• contribs – 11:13, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | → | Archive 20 |
I recently added infoboxes to some composer articles (Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven) and was promptly reverted and directed to this discussion. I have read the archived discussions above, and agree with some of the concerns (mainly that erroneous information was being included, and that nuanced items -- like Beethoven's date of birth -- were not given proper treatment). With the current use of footnotes within infoboxes, however, these shouldn't really be an issue anymore. In addition, any editor who spots misinformation is free to make a correction. In my opinion, I see no reason why composers should not have an infobox. Moreover, after reading the discussion, I was unable to spot at which point consensus was reached on this issue. As a classical music connoisseur / wikipedia editor, I see no good reason at this point to exclude infoboxes from composer articles -- TrustTruth ( talk) 23:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Like I said, I have read the archived discussions of this subject and noted that my points have already been raised. I also noted that there was no clear consensus, despite what has been stated on the project page. Even after reading the archives, I still frankly don't understand the rationale behind denying infobox usage for classical music articles, while allowing them for pop music. A person is a person, regardless of genre. Please help me understand. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 02:59, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I think it comes down to a simple NPOV issue. Kleinzach states that "Great composers such as Mozart are unique" and cannot be condensed into a box. Personally I agree that he was a great composer and also that he was unique. However, please consult Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias. From a pure worldwide view of the subject, Mozart is a man who lived in Europe in the 18th Century and is notable to those with an understanding of European culture. He has a birth date, death date, country of origin and occupation. Those salient facts are indisputable and, presented in an infobox, would help a non-European (or an individual not familiar with European culture) access the basics about him. Is Mozart a greater and more-unique person than, say, Gandhi? Surely Gandhi is too complicated to box in as well, yet his article uses one. From an unbiased, worldwide perspective, Mozart (or any other composer) is not too special for an infobox. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 18:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
The infobox that TrustTruth earlier put up at Joseph Haydn (see [1]) is worth examining as a case study in connection with this debate. It contains the following three errors:
For details concerning these matters, please consult the article text and the sources it cites.
I don't mean to make an ad hominem argument here (though I admit, I do feel pretty indignant at TrustTruth's level of carelessness). Rather, I bring it up because I think this example is only the tip of the iceberg. Composer infoboxes quite generally attract inaccurate editing, and that the mistakes are very hard to fix within the rigid format of the infoboxes. This is a good reason, I think, not to have them. Opus33 ( talk) 17:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
With trepidation I've put in an infobox for Joseph Haydn which I believe does not include anything inaccurate or excessively detailed/trivial. I would like to be able to add a line that would look like this:
but unfortunately these templates don't let you change the headings. If anyone knows where I could learn how to do this I would appreciate knowing.
Following Centurion's advice, I left out the instruments as trivial (Haydn was known to be a merely competent performer, and was famous only as a composer), the "occupation" as too obvious to include, and the genre as inappropriate to Haydn's day (the whole idea of "classical" music didn't really exist until a few decades later). I also find it very odd that the template specifies place of birth but not place of death (who makes up these templates anyway?), so I made that symmetrical by using the text fields. Cheers, Opus33 ( talk) 23:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I would like to mention User:Turangalila/sandbox/Infobox composer as a great starting point for an infobox. However I would like something slightly more subtle - nevertheless the completely optional fields seem excellent and notice how the infobox is geared to a composer. Centy – reply• contribs – 01:33, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
OK Template:Classical composer is up and running. I have included it tenuously in two articles, Haydn and Beethoven. Please tell me what you think. Centy – reply• contribs – 03:15, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
This discussion has become a little fragmented, so I'm going to recombine threads here. I am going to refute the arguments presented by currently the only editor who is refusing to budge one inch on this issue and even consider developing an infobox.
Let's review the reasons why the templates were deleted in the three nominations.
Reasons for deletion - 3rd Third Deletion:
†Reasons for deletion - 2nd Deletion (2 votes incl. nominator):
‡Reasons for deletion - 1st Deletion (1 vote by nominator):
Kleinzach - The argument for deletion is incredibly shaky if you actually look at it (in my book its non-existent - it hinges on consensus against it which has gone, its lack of use which only stems from editors removing it personally from articles and previous deletions all of which no longer apply). Just because some has been deleted doesn't mean in shouldn't be recreated - especially if on the evidence above it was deleted for all the wrong reasons (as I see from the chain of logic above). By the way, have moved infobox to Template:Infobox classical composer to be more in line with other infobox namings. Centy – reply• contribs – 10:41, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Kleinzach claims there is a consensus against infoboxes established by 30 or 40 editors.
That's a out and out lie, Kleinzach. First you claim 20+ editors, now its 30 or 40? Re-read the discussion yourself, there were less than 40 editors in the discussion and quite a fair number were quite for the infobox until Andy Mabbett single handedly alienated all the pro-infobox people (I note a lot of pro support was thrown out by comments such as canvassing or not a regular editor). Besides in this new debate, you have yet to find 1 single editor who has you staunch view of anti-infobox at whatever cost, no matter what. That's not 20+ editor consensus. That's a bogus past consensus. Centy – reply• contribs – 11:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
“ | As I think you will remember the Biography Project Infobox page gives this advice: "Word of caution! Certain biography articles have opposition camps on infoboxes. With the current work groups, it is generally safe, but, for instance, scientist articles can have some heated debates on these. So, if you are intending to apply one of the templates to an article about a scientist, academic, or classical composer, musician or singer, first ask on the Talk page." So it's not just the classical music projects that object to bio-infoboxes - let's shoot down that canard right now! | ” |
— Kleinzach |
Erm, have you checked any scientist article lately (like Einstein, Newton, Euler, Heisenberg, Feynmann). They all have infoboxes. The line about scientists and academics is ancient and now totally incorrect. In fact the only biographical articles across all of WP:BIO that are anti-infoboxes are composers and classical musicians. Classical musician infoboxes are blocked under the same "consensus" being discussed right now. So in fact we have just demonstrated that yes composers are the special case in some way. Why? Centy – reply• contribs – 11:13, 10 May 2008 (UTC)