This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
Grove 1980 gives Filtz as the primary spelling and Fils and Filz as secondary. Grove 2001 gives Fils as primary and the others as secondary. I would accept the more up to date Grove as more authoritative, but the vast majority of his scores (though they are not that many) give his name as Filtz. There currently are no redirects pointing to Anton Fils and I would like to create them but only after being sure of the answer to the question: Which is the preferred spelling? Anton Mravcek 20:40, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I promised during the first marathon infobox discussion to try my hand at designing a new composer infobox that would maximize the potential benefit to articles while minimizing the potential harm, and to come back here when I had something to propose. It's taken some time & real life has interrupted the work a bit, but I finally have a "beta" version to show, so with apologies for resurrecting a discussion I'm sure many hoped was dead, here it is:
The page includes a draft "template-documentation" page with cut-and-paste markup & instructions, plus a few hypothetical examples of the template "in action." I've tried to leave almost all the paramters optional, and to emphasize in both the markup and the instructions that they should be deleted if not applicable, oversimple, etc. Obviously if folks actually want to use it in articles it should be moved to the Template namespace.
Please have a look and let me know what y'all think — I think comments should be posted here on this page unless they're purely technical, in which case a comment on my sandbox page might be better. I'm cross-posting this at a couple of other WikiProjects to solicit as much opinion/help as possible, but the consensus of this project carries the most weight for me.
Thanks, — Turangalila talk 16:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
class="bday"
, so you don't need to add that separately.class="note"
around the whole "date of death" TR; and make the other "notes" apply to whole rows, also, so as to include their labels.Oppose. With all respect, I think infoboxes are in general a terrible idea, for the following reason. An encyclopedia editor should use his/her brain to decide what's important about a topic, and put exactly that into the opening paragraph. Infoboxes are a device for subverting this principle: they force the editor to emphasize aspects of the topic that may well be trivial and irrelevant. Hence, they're good only for simple topics that come in series and share most of their important properties, such as Magic the Gathering cards. Composers are much more complicated than Magic the Gathering cards. Yours sincerely, Opus33 19:15, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. Most composers on Wikipedia are historical figures, thus raising all sorts of cultural and evidential complexities that cannot be distilled into little boxes. Including works, students, and teachers raises all sorts of issues as well: Do we include 50 Mozart works? Probably not... 5? By what criteria? Whatever it is, it'll be so arbitrary that the information is valueless. What counts as a teacher? Did Buxtehude "teach" Bach? And so on. Fireplace 20:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Strong Oppose One of the major problems with infoboxes - exemplified by Turangalila's detailed work - is that the more important the composer, the more difficult it is to devise a suitable box. We have now been through all the arguments against them. Opus33 (above) explains the problem of the opening paragraph vis à vis the box. Centy and Fireplace point out the inevitable anomalies, anachronisms, criteria problems. We can also look at the aesthetic problems - clutter, repetition - that any print enclyclopedia would avoid. The solution recommended by Centy - seperate pages of infobox-type information for people who want crib-sheet-style minimal information is reasonable. That would satisfy those who require meta data/micro formats (or whatever), while providing information for those who don't want to read the articles. The article editors would no longer be responsible for accuracy - this has always been the main problem with having them here. (Compliments to Turangalila for his examples. Thank you for continuing to be the reasonable face (the Sinn Féin?) of the 'box lobby!) -- Kleinzach 00:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
SupportI think it makes a lot of information visible quickly. Being able to navigate easilly backwards and forwards between pupils of Schoenberg or whoever sounds a good idea -- Peter cohen 09:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Basically, a nice portrait or picture and place and date of birth and death (where applicable) is about all the boilerplate info that is going to work across all composers. The rest (important students, teachers, predominant style, etc...) will likely result in fitting square pegs into round holes. If a very barebones infobox listing the core bio details of composers is considered useful, sobeit. But such information is inevitably provided in the lead paragraph so it is probably redundant. Beyond that and we get into the task of categorising what is, too often, the uncategorisable. I suggest we abandon the idea of infoboxes for composers in general. Eusebeus 00:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Still oppose I appreciate the work Turangalila has put into this (and AFAIK T is the only pro-box editor to have made such an effort) but I still can't see it flying per all the concerns raised above. -- Folantin 09:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Huge support of Turangalila and T's work but Oppose reintroducing infoboxes: The great thing about this infobox (and not the other ones) is that it summarizes much of the most important information for contexts where a prose summary/discussion/nuance/citation list of the subject wouldn't fit or be appropriate -- but the encyclopedia articles are exactly the right place for these types of prose expositions, and the lede can organize the information from most to least important in a way that boxes can't. I think there are places for non-prose additions: timelines would be really useful for certain (not all) composers; in a section of "Biography 1810-1820" a sidebar could list the important works of this period, since they're unlikely to all be biographically significant. Etc. So I think having talented and creative people working on the templates will be a boon to Composers and other classical music projects; but I'm still against this particular template. -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 16:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I support infoboxes, but they should also be as accurate as possible. My main grudge with this whole argument is that in Wikipedia nobody can claim ownership of an article. But unfortunately there seems to be a loophole: Wikiprojects. As soon as you have created an article, sobebody tags it with the appropriate wikiproject tag, and soon the article's style will be subject to the project's "we do it this way because we say so"-rules. "Don't try to argue, we have reached consensus!!" It's funny how the Classical composers wikiproject says that "current consensus is to do this and this". What use is a current consensus when a project is growing in a multitude of directions all the time and members leave and join all the time? It's impossible to keep a consensus that way. And WHY are those few people who have joined the project the only people allowed to discuss the style and contents of articles - articles should belong to all wikipedia editors, not just a few who have chosen themselves!
It is very strange that of the 100 or so people who will edit an article, 12 have decided that they are more important than the others and decide to subject the article to their own rules. In effect, they "own" the article, even though they claim they are just working according to an abstract "project consensus", which is actually just their own decision, they just don't want it to sound like that, because "project consensus" sounds much more authoritative than "I wanna".
If an infobox contains badly misleading information, the information should be removed, not the box. If not, the box, and the information, should be kept. Just like with anything else in Wikipedia.-- Wormsie 23:15, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
A new project for Richard Wagner was set up by Dogbertd on 25 May. New participants are welcome! -- Kleinzach 01:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
Grove 1980 gives Filtz as the primary spelling and Fils and Filz as secondary. Grove 2001 gives Fils as primary and the others as secondary. I would accept the more up to date Grove as more authoritative, but the vast majority of his scores (though they are not that many) give his name as Filtz. There currently are no redirects pointing to Anton Fils and I would like to create them but only after being sure of the answer to the question: Which is the preferred spelling? Anton Mravcek 20:40, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I promised during the first marathon infobox discussion to try my hand at designing a new composer infobox that would maximize the potential benefit to articles while minimizing the potential harm, and to come back here when I had something to propose. It's taken some time & real life has interrupted the work a bit, but I finally have a "beta" version to show, so with apologies for resurrecting a discussion I'm sure many hoped was dead, here it is:
The page includes a draft "template-documentation" page with cut-and-paste markup & instructions, plus a few hypothetical examples of the template "in action." I've tried to leave almost all the paramters optional, and to emphasize in both the markup and the instructions that they should be deleted if not applicable, oversimple, etc. Obviously if folks actually want to use it in articles it should be moved to the Template namespace.
Please have a look and let me know what y'all think — I think comments should be posted here on this page unless they're purely technical, in which case a comment on my sandbox page might be better. I'm cross-posting this at a couple of other WikiProjects to solicit as much opinion/help as possible, but the consensus of this project carries the most weight for me.
Thanks, — Turangalila talk 16:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
class="bday"
, so you don't need to add that separately.class="note"
around the whole "date of death" TR; and make the other "notes" apply to whole rows, also, so as to include their labels.Oppose. With all respect, I think infoboxes are in general a terrible idea, for the following reason. An encyclopedia editor should use his/her brain to decide what's important about a topic, and put exactly that into the opening paragraph. Infoboxes are a device for subverting this principle: they force the editor to emphasize aspects of the topic that may well be trivial and irrelevant. Hence, they're good only for simple topics that come in series and share most of their important properties, such as Magic the Gathering cards. Composers are much more complicated than Magic the Gathering cards. Yours sincerely, Opus33 19:15, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. Most composers on Wikipedia are historical figures, thus raising all sorts of cultural and evidential complexities that cannot be distilled into little boxes. Including works, students, and teachers raises all sorts of issues as well: Do we include 50 Mozart works? Probably not... 5? By what criteria? Whatever it is, it'll be so arbitrary that the information is valueless. What counts as a teacher? Did Buxtehude "teach" Bach? And so on. Fireplace 20:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Strong Oppose One of the major problems with infoboxes - exemplified by Turangalila's detailed work - is that the more important the composer, the more difficult it is to devise a suitable box. We have now been through all the arguments against them. Opus33 (above) explains the problem of the opening paragraph vis à vis the box. Centy and Fireplace point out the inevitable anomalies, anachronisms, criteria problems. We can also look at the aesthetic problems - clutter, repetition - that any print enclyclopedia would avoid. The solution recommended by Centy - seperate pages of infobox-type information for people who want crib-sheet-style minimal information is reasonable. That would satisfy those who require meta data/micro formats (or whatever), while providing information for those who don't want to read the articles. The article editors would no longer be responsible for accuracy - this has always been the main problem with having them here. (Compliments to Turangalila for his examples. Thank you for continuing to be the reasonable face (the Sinn Féin?) of the 'box lobby!) -- Kleinzach 00:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
SupportI think it makes a lot of information visible quickly. Being able to navigate easilly backwards and forwards between pupils of Schoenberg or whoever sounds a good idea -- Peter cohen 09:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Basically, a nice portrait or picture and place and date of birth and death (where applicable) is about all the boilerplate info that is going to work across all composers. The rest (important students, teachers, predominant style, etc...) will likely result in fitting square pegs into round holes. If a very barebones infobox listing the core bio details of composers is considered useful, sobeit. But such information is inevitably provided in the lead paragraph so it is probably redundant. Beyond that and we get into the task of categorising what is, too often, the uncategorisable. I suggest we abandon the idea of infoboxes for composers in general. Eusebeus 00:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Still oppose I appreciate the work Turangalila has put into this (and AFAIK T is the only pro-box editor to have made such an effort) but I still can't see it flying per all the concerns raised above. -- Folantin 09:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Huge support of Turangalila and T's work but Oppose reintroducing infoboxes: The great thing about this infobox (and not the other ones) is that it summarizes much of the most important information for contexts where a prose summary/discussion/nuance/citation list of the subject wouldn't fit or be appropriate -- but the encyclopedia articles are exactly the right place for these types of prose expositions, and the lede can organize the information from most to least important in a way that boxes can't. I think there are places for non-prose additions: timelines would be really useful for certain (not all) composers; in a section of "Biography 1810-1820" a sidebar could list the important works of this period, since they're unlikely to all be biographically significant. Etc. So I think having talented and creative people working on the templates will be a boon to Composers and other classical music projects; but I'm still against this particular template. -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 16:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I support infoboxes, but they should also be as accurate as possible. My main grudge with this whole argument is that in Wikipedia nobody can claim ownership of an article. But unfortunately there seems to be a loophole: Wikiprojects. As soon as you have created an article, sobebody tags it with the appropriate wikiproject tag, and soon the article's style will be subject to the project's "we do it this way because we say so"-rules. "Don't try to argue, we have reached consensus!!" It's funny how the Classical composers wikiproject says that "current consensus is to do this and this". What use is a current consensus when a project is growing in a multitude of directions all the time and members leave and join all the time? It's impossible to keep a consensus that way. And WHY are those few people who have joined the project the only people allowed to discuss the style and contents of articles - articles should belong to all wikipedia editors, not just a few who have chosen themselves!
It is very strange that of the 100 or so people who will edit an article, 12 have decided that they are more important than the others and decide to subject the article to their own rules. In effect, they "own" the article, even though they claim they are just working according to an abstract "project consensus", which is actually just their own decision, they just don't want it to sound like that, because "project consensus" sounds much more authoritative than "I wanna".
If an infobox contains badly misleading information, the information should be removed, not the box. If not, the box, and the information, should be kept. Just like with anything else in Wikipedia.-- Wormsie 23:15, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
A new project for Richard Wagner was set up by Dogbertd on 25 May. New participants are welcome! -- Kleinzach 01:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)