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Welcome to the Modern Chinese music talk page!
Before you comment:
To Do:
Hi, I'm Azchael of www.rockinchina.com and I became recently aware of this WikiProject about Chinese modern music. I myself am hosting a wiki system dedicated to Chinese rock music, actually all kind of Chinese underground music:
It is by far the largest English language page in the web about Chinese rock and heavily edited by me and our staff. We are independent and this is a spare-time project of ours without sponsoring of any specific preferences, except our own musical taste, in which we like to add more bands than in other genres.
I know that most bands we feature are by far no famous enough to be included into Wikipedia and I see our own project as an extension to the Wikipedia knowledge. E.g. Having extended knowledge about Cui Jian and also featuring everything we know about Yaksa or Cold Fairyland. We also used information for e.g. Tang Dynasty or Xu Wei from Wikipedia and think of it as a mutual collaboration, exchanging knowledge!
Therefore I'd like to welcome everyone to visit our wiki system, have a look around and either use the knowledge there for the Wikipedia, or vice-versa add your knowledge into our system, for it is the first reference at the moment, when looking for English info on Chinese rock, punk, metal or electro music.
-- Azchael ( talk) 12:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Is there a user infobox (i.e.
![]() | This user
participates in WikiProject Chinese-language entertainment. |
) for this WikiProject?
82nigiri 23:39, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
You should have put Faye's face on it! Because as we all know, she is the reigning queen of Chinese pop. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 18:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Arsonal for the infobox! Shuttlecockfc 01:34, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
While it is true that the ROC is used on all formal documents (e.g. passport), I think Taiwan is fine for music. Reasons:
82nigiri 23:50, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Oh jeez. More cross-straits issues. Seems like they are everywhere sometimes. Hopefully it won't be a big problem for this new WikiProject. Nice work starting it up, by the way! Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 05:43, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Just a note - not sure if everybody is aware, but there is a current WikiProject proposal for a Cantopop WikiProject. I just left a message there to say that it may not be necessary anymore. [1] Cheers. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 05:55, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I've been told in the past that links to sites with lyrics are against Wikipedia policy, because those sites violate copyright. Links to official sites would be OK, so would links to English translations and perhaps pinyin versions, but not pages with Chinese lyrics. You may need to revise the advice on the project page in the light of this. - Fayenatic london (talk) 22:48, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
It states to give award shows, musical genres, and notable singing contests Top importance, but what about record labels? Contests, awards and whatever pretty much define the musical industry (award shows - those who win dictate what's popular in the industry, awards indicate degree of success, genres - evolution of the C-pop sound, singing contests - in the case of Super Girl, it indicates a grassroots revival in Mainland China). Record labels aren't nearly as influential, seeing as they're the mere engines that make artists who they are. Moreover, unlike award shows, which have their own stories and such, record labels are much harder to search for, and frankly, are just rosters of artists. News for record labels will more than likely overlap news for its respective artists. I thereby vote to place record labels in the Low importance category. Pandacomics 12:29, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Someone made an edit in C-pop#Terminology. I know that region is a consumer market. Are they really a production hub? Benjwong 22:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I know some artist pages like Roman Tam saids cantopop. Compare it with Jay Chou, it saids Pop, Rock, R&B, hip hop. Would it make sense to keep it all consistent? So that Jay Chou would say C-pop, taiwanese pop, mandopop, Chinese hip hop? There are alot of categories. I would like to help where I can at least if we can at least agree on some format. Benjwong 14:36, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
There are quite a number to choose from:
Has Jay Chou actually been described as "Chinese hip hop"? I thought it would be just "hip hop"? I really don't like liberally applying the "Cantopop" and "Mandopop" label to some of the artists, because the implication in those two genres is that it is commercial and generic music that's not usually known to be "good" music. But can we really describe someone like Roman Tam or Faye in that context, even though they are usually described by those terms? If it was up to me, the only people that would be described as "Cantopop" or "Mandopop" are people like Twins and Cookies and others that are like them. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 03:56, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Some helpful flags for the different rows
Wow I was running down the list fixing many artists pages, when I saw that I was possibly violating
WP:Flagcruft according to
Hong Qi Gong. I left a message at
Wikipedia:Use of flags in articles. Before I go any further, I still can't tell if there really is a violation. That rule is so loose. And IMHO doesn't make much sense.
Benjwong
06:14, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I do want to note firstly that WP:FLAG is a proposed policy. But reading the section on flag use for birth and death locations ( Wikipedia:Use_of_flags_in_articles#Not_for_use_in_locations_of_birth_and_death), I think this is not a bad policy to go by, especially for people born in Hong Kong. The main point is that flags imply nationality, so we should avoid them in birth and date places. Putting one of the versions of the HK flag next to the birth location can definitely cause confusion as to a person's nationality. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 14:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Are you sure all those flags are necessary or appropriate? They seem to complicate the issue, and introduce problems like, what flag do you use for someone born in Tibet in 1932? Or 1950? What do you use for someone born in Nanjing or Hong Kong in 1944, or Taiwan in 1935? -- PalaceGuard008 ( Talk) 07:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I know my reasons are getting exhaustive, but despite anything, I still continue to support flags!!! I mean, in a war article for example, or a football match. It is so much more meaningful to have flags vs flags. And plainly, I think wikipedia has enough txt in it, a touch of graphic here and there really wont hurt. As for the confusion and error, it will exactly happen in text also. Take the example of "The Republic of China was already established, but the Qing emperor had not yet abdicated. Mongolia had declared independence, but it was not recognised by China - what flag do you use for someone born in Outer Mongolia at that time?". What will a person write in text of the person born in outer mongolia at that time? It is in the same situation as flags. So flags+text is just as, if not more effective than just text. Dengero 07:39, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
You are saying that we dont need to place the nation column at all in profile of the artist/person. Dengero 23:24, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Really, flags are completely unnecessary. It's not needed to convey location or nationality. I am against using flags for locations of birth and death. But for nationality, I am neutral to flag usage even though I don't think it's necessary. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 04:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
By the way, WP:FLAG is now an MoS guideline. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 15:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I know this doesn't relate to the discussion board, but this is really the only place I've been hanging out so far and I can't find any other wikiprojects relating to TVB dramas. So yeah. Anywayz, I find that lots and lots of TVB drama pages has various forums and fansites linked to them. And I mean alot. From known ones like AsianFanatics right up to some weird site with only 4 memebrs or something. Should I do a major cleanup? I'm afraid of a backlash really to be honest. Dengero 12:43, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
As always, make sure you have reliable sources. Forums are not considered reliable sources. Your best bet for TVB dramas are probably Chinese-language websites or Chinese-language news sources. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 05:34, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Someone with a HK IP deleted the image of Sunboyz out of Music of Hong Kong. Is it a bad caption or something missing? Benjwong 17:03, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I've created a template specifically for actors/singers in the Chinese entertainment industry and I've added it to Maggie Cheung. Please take a look - Template:Infobox Chinese actor and singer. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 18:40, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Now that Fiona Sit uses this template, gives us the instructions when you want to mass spread it. Dengero 10:14, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
That looks good. Can't believe how easy you fixed it. Let's mass spread this thing for all the artists, actors, groups etc. Benjwong 07:36, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks very much for this, Hong. I'll implement your new infobox in the template page sometime soon. Arsonal ( talk) 20:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The TVB series Steps, someone edited the name of the character Wallace from Stephen to Francios. I know the guy came from France, but I'm not really sure of the name. Anyone know? Dengero 08:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Serious grammar fixing required for Heart of Greed. Anyone game enough? :P I did only just pass my last english assignment ~.~ Dengero 13:05, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
After seeing 3 chapters of Marriage of Inconvenience I fell in love with Toby so I decide to create her page lol. Anyway, I used the new template for her, worked very well btw. Can anyone help me translate those awards? Whoever translated the awards for Fiona Sit did a fantastic job. And errrm....can someone teach me how to put up music samples? Thankyou in advance ^^. And I also created a page for her album Bear In Mind. If you want you can watch both pages. Again, thx ^^. And! One last thing! Can we delete/archive stuff already decided on this page like the flag one. Dengero ( talk) 07:24, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Is anyone (other than Benjwong, who's been doing a lot of the replacing, and H7G, the maestro behind the box) up for some mass infobox replacing? Pandacomics ( talk) 21:54, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Please start tagging discography and list pages with {{WikiProject China|class=na|entertainment=yes}}. Thanks. — Arsonal ( talk) 15:58, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I was looking at the cantopop listing of artists. Maybe the page should be limited to mainstream only. Groups like AMK and Dear Jane? I really have never heard of them. Is it just me? Benjwong ( talk) 06:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I think the Cantopop and Mandopop labels are definitely over-used. And I wonder if the Cantopop and Mandopop articles are in violation of WP:Original research because they mostly describe music in Cantonese and Mandarin. But as I understand it, Cantopop and Mandopop is mostly used to referred to "manufactured" pop music that relies heavily on marketting. But there are really plenty of Chinese musicians that don't really fit that label. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 07:44, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Has anybody ever given thought to retooling this WikiProject to encompass Chinese TV and films? As you know, there's often a lot of crossover between the Chinese acting industry and the Chinese singing industry. I know it would be a lot of work, but it would increase the range of this WikiProject, and there are a lot of articles on Chinese films and actors that could use the attention. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 07:20, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
The Chinese cinema workgroup over at WikiProject China has been inactive for nearly a year ( Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Films/Chinese cinema task force). Honestly, editors at WikiProject China are usually not interested in subjects related to modern entertainment. I'd be willing to do much of the work necessary to retool the WikiProject if others think it may be a good idea to do the expansion. But on the other hand, I don't think we should do this unless we can get unanimous approval to do so. To reiterate, I'm throwing out the idea of expanding this WikiProject to include the film and TV industries, so basically everything in the modern Chinese (or Chinese-language) entertainment industry. There're a lot of small articles on Chinese movies and TV series, we can use this WikiProject to coordinate efforts to improve those articles. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 23:56, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, I'd imagine it would be either a "sister" or "child" WikiProject to WP:China and other relevant WikiProjects. First let's see if we can get everybody's approval for this, then we can iron out the specifics later, things like scope - include only the entertainment industry in Greater China? Or all Chinese-language entertainment globally? What should we name it? etc etc. The holidays are coming up, I suggest we continue this conversation and after the new year I'll put up a poll to officially see if there are any objections. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 19:41, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
We can say worldwide, though 95% of the topics probably come out of Taiwan, HK, Singapore, Malaysia, mainland China or areas near by. Can we decide on what to include/exclude?
My main concern is that we might be spreading ourselves too thin. If you hadn't noticed, most of the "grunt work" is being done by the four of us, plus Dengero, Ushimaru, and IceDevil. If we expand our scope too far, it's going to stretch us quite a bit. Pandacomics ( talk) 16:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Hmm... that kind of defeats the purpose of how I want to expand the WikiProject. I don't think any editor really is required to edit film-related articles if we expanded the WikiProject to include films, unless the editor is actually interested in doing so. I'm not sure I agree that it'll stretch the work. I was just thinking that this WikiProject is a good place to coordinate editing Chinese films and TV series as well. Plus, there's a chance other editors would be interested in joining if it was expanded to include films. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 04:25, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Alright, it seems like there are objections to expansion into films. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 21:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Well again, I don't think we should expand into films unless we have unanimous support for it. And the Chinese cinema taskforce has only three comments at the Talk page, made by only two editors, and the last comment made over a year ago. If we ever get unanimous support for expansion into films, we can leave a comment over at the Chinese cinema taskforce to see if there are any objections to it being absorbed by this WikiProject. I honestly doubt there will be any objections. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 01:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Sorry about the late-ness in adding my 2c. Well, about the point that we're spread too thin if we increase our range, the thing is, (we're) already doing the job lol. Dengero ( talk) 02:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Just wondering if/when this will take place. It is already May, haha. I'm interested in helping out, particularly with HK TV shows, actors and actresses. I just feel there needs to be a manual of style for a lot of the articles... they're lacking any standard. The western style ones don't really fit. Skyezx 05:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
By the way, I just discovered this template - Template:Infobox Chinese Film - I think many of the articles for Chinese films are not using this template. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 22:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to do something about the news where a photo was posted on the internet of her and edison chen in the bed. Until we write something about it, vandalism will keep going lol. Dengero ( talk) 06:25, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
A number of album articles have been listed at Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English for needing translation:
Please help in translating these. But before we do that, maybe we ought to come up with a standard way to translate these album articles. Do we list the original Chinese song titles first? Do we then put in parenthesis the title translation? Or maybe we do a romanisation of the Chinese song titles? I'm opened to anything. But I thought it would be good to set a standard so we have a guideline for how to format these translations. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 04:43, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
By the way, after one of these articles has been translated, make sure you de-tag it and de-list it from Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English. Also, if any editor is interested in doing article translations, keep Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English on your watchlist. I would say that about half the Chinese-language articles that get listed there are album articles or otherwise articles related to the Chinese music industry. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 15:53, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
One more left. It's not an album, but a singing competition show in Taiwan - One Million Star, Season 2. I've translated most of the theme names of the different episodes, but I'm not sure how to translate a few of them. I don't watch singing competition shows so I was a little confused by some of the names. We also need to find out if the contestants of the show have English names that they use, if not, then I guess we just romanise like One Million Star, Season 1. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 02:33, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Nlu has tabled a proposal involving the recategorization of C-pop artists. He proposes the following:
I have qualms with the following points, outlined as follows.
Hell, I'd be happy to get rid off all categories that refer to Mandopop or Cantopop. It's not like there's a definitive authority that slaps those labels on musical acts. It might be easy to categorise an act like S.H.E, but are acts like 五月天 and 陳綺貞 considered Mandopop? Their music is not very "pop" sounding, but they sure have the marketting, music videos, etc, that pop stars have. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 04:24, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I'll say this again -- Pandacomics, please read WP:CAT and WP:SUBCAT. When you are still stating "not all Taiwanese singers sing in Mandarin" (very true) as an argument of making Category:Taiwanese singers a subcategory of Category:Republic of China singers, I have to believe that you don't understand the nuances of how subcategories work. (There are other valid arguments against such a categorization, as you yourself wrote already, but this was not a valid one.) -- Nlu ( talk) 13:45, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
And going back to your point about WP:CAT, to give you a taste of your own medicine, it says here: In general, avoid subcategorizing subjects by geographical boundary if that boundary does not have any relevant bearing on the subjects' other characteristics. Does being Taiwanese/Malaysian/Singaporean have any bearing on their existence as Mandopop artists? No. They still sing in the Mandopop industry. From WP:SUBCAT, "When an article is put into a subcategory based on an attribute that is not the first thing most people would think of to categorise it, it should be left in the parent category as well." When people want to look for or refer to a Cantopop artist, they aren't going to say "Oh, are there any good Hong Kong Cantopop artists?" Same with Mandopop. "Are there any good Singaporean Mandopop artists?" There's a reason that in music stores, CDs are lumped by language and by genre. Not by geography (unless you're looking for World Music, which Mandopop/Cantopop are not.) The subdivision of "Mandopop singers" into "(region) Mandopop singers" would thus violate that particular WP:SUBCAT criterion. And finally, for future reference, from WP:CAT, "if you decide that a large category should be depopulated and the entries re-categorized into sub-categories, add this template to the category page {{Verylarge}}". As opposed to, you know, re-categorizing things in a very unilateral manner. Pandacomics ( talk) 14:51, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Pandacomics ( talk) 15:31, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 1 Per Hong's concern over Mayday's status as an actual Mandopop band as opposed to being a Chinese rock artist:
i.e.
Mandarin-language singers
Cantonese-language singers
Comments
Proposal 1a
Same as above, but with the following modification:
Mandarin-language singers
Taiwanese artists
Comments
The structure, as you've written in both your Proposal 1 and Proposal 1a, Pandacomics, won't work. First of all, "XXX artists" is taken already and used for a different purpose (for people involved in the arts). Second, even if they were not taken, "Taiwanese artists," even when used in a musical sense, as you yourself noted, won't necessarily be Mandarin singers, so it would really has to be "Taiwanese Mandarin-language singers." Basically, you have to make sure that your categories are well-conceived and wouldn't cause further confusion, and also have to be logically correct. -- Nlu ( talk) 00:46, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Mandarin-language singers
Pandacomics ( talk) 20:32, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
We are not getting rid of the mandopop and cantopop category per the trees above, right? Benjwong ( talk) 03:58, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
By just looking at the disaster on Aska Yang, I think we really need to set a manual of style. Now. (I know many, many other users have called for this. This is definitely not the first proposal.) Any suggestions? I know a Career section will be almost mandatory; same goes for our infoboxes. We still haven't established a consensus on categories, so I guess we can start on the article sectioning first.
Pandacomics ( talk) 23:40, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Is this going to be the place where we can put in our two CEnts? Har har. Pandacomics ( talk) 01:40, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
(Typo intended.) In the manual of style, I'd absolutely love to include a section on when to use the simple past (e.g. released) and when to use the present perfect (e.g. has released). Anonymous/new editors seem to be obsessed with using the present perfect for reasons beyond my comprehension. WHY? Pandacomics ( talk) 18:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
![]() | China: Entertainment Project‑class | |||||||||
|
Chinese-language entertainment taskforce |
---|
Main Navigation |
Guidelines |
Departments |
Work pages |
Affiliations |
Templates |
|
Chinese entertainment article statistics |
This list is generated automatically every night around 3 AM (UTC) |
Welcome to the Modern Chinese music talk page!
Before you comment:
To Do:
Hi, I'm Azchael of www.rockinchina.com and I became recently aware of this WikiProject about Chinese modern music. I myself am hosting a wiki system dedicated to Chinese rock music, actually all kind of Chinese underground music:
It is by far the largest English language page in the web about Chinese rock and heavily edited by me and our staff. We are independent and this is a spare-time project of ours without sponsoring of any specific preferences, except our own musical taste, in which we like to add more bands than in other genres.
I know that most bands we feature are by far no famous enough to be included into Wikipedia and I see our own project as an extension to the Wikipedia knowledge. E.g. Having extended knowledge about Cui Jian and also featuring everything we know about Yaksa or Cold Fairyland. We also used information for e.g. Tang Dynasty or Xu Wei from Wikipedia and think of it as a mutual collaboration, exchanging knowledge!
Therefore I'd like to welcome everyone to visit our wiki system, have a look around and either use the knowledge there for the Wikipedia, or vice-versa add your knowledge into our system, for it is the first reference at the moment, when looking for English info on Chinese rock, punk, metal or electro music.
-- Azchael ( talk) 12:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Is there a user infobox (i.e.
![]() | This user
participates in WikiProject Chinese-language entertainment. |
) for this WikiProject?
82nigiri 23:39, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
You should have put Faye's face on it! Because as we all know, she is the reigning queen of Chinese pop. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 18:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Arsonal for the infobox! Shuttlecockfc 01:34, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
While it is true that the ROC is used on all formal documents (e.g. passport), I think Taiwan is fine for music. Reasons:
82nigiri 23:50, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Oh jeez. More cross-straits issues. Seems like they are everywhere sometimes. Hopefully it won't be a big problem for this new WikiProject. Nice work starting it up, by the way! Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 05:43, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Just a note - not sure if everybody is aware, but there is a current WikiProject proposal for a Cantopop WikiProject. I just left a message there to say that it may not be necessary anymore. [1] Cheers. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 05:55, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I've been told in the past that links to sites with lyrics are against Wikipedia policy, because those sites violate copyright. Links to official sites would be OK, so would links to English translations and perhaps pinyin versions, but not pages with Chinese lyrics. You may need to revise the advice on the project page in the light of this. - Fayenatic london (talk) 22:48, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
It states to give award shows, musical genres, and notable singing contests Top importance, but what about record labels? Contests, awards and whatever pretty much define the musical industry (award shows - those who win dictate what's popular in the industry, awards indicate degree of success, genres - evolution of the C-pop sound, singing contests - in the case of Super Girl, it indicates a grassroots revival in Mainland China). Record labels aren't nearly as influential, seeing as they're the mere engines that make artists who they are. Moreover, unlike award shows, which have their own stories and such, record labels are much harder to search for, and frankly, are just rosters of artists. News for record labels will more than likely overlap news for its respective artists. I thereby vote to place record labels in the Low importance category. Pandacomics 12:29, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Someone made an edit in C-pop#Terminology. I know that region is a consumer market. Are they really a production hub? Benjwong 22:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I know some artist pages like Roman Tam saids cantopop. Compare it with Jay Chou, it saids Pop, Rock, R&B, hip hop. Would it make sense to keep it all consistent? So that Jay Chou would say C-pop, taiwanese pop, mandopop, Chinese hip hop? There are alot of categories. I would like to help where I can at least if we can at least agree on some format. Benjwong 14:36, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
There are quite a number to choose from:
Has Jay Chou actually been described as "Chinese hip hop"? I thought it would be just "hip hop"? I really don't like liberally applying the "Cantopop" and "Mandopop" label to some of the artists, because the implication in those two genres is that it is commercial and generic music that's not usually known to be "good" music. But can we really describe someone like Roman Tam or Faye in that context, even though they are usually described by those terms? If it was up to me, the only people that would be described as "Cantopop" or "Mandopop" are people like Twins and Cookies and others that are like them. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 03:56, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Some helpful flags for the different rows
Wow I was running down the list fixing many artists pages, when I saw that I was possibly violating
WP:Flagcruft according to
Hong Qi Gong. I left a message at
Wikipedia:Use of flags in articles. Before I go any further, I still can't tell if there really is a violation. That rule is so loose. And IMHO doesn't make much sense.
Benjwong
06:14, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I do want to note firstly that WP:FLAG is a proposed policy. But reading the section on flag use for birth and death locations ( Wikipedia:Use_of_flags_in_articles#Not_for_use_in_locations_of_birth_and_death), I think this is not a bad policy to go by, especially for people born in Hong Kong. The main point is that flags imply nationality, so we should avoid them in birth and date places. Putting one of the versions of the HK flag next to the birth location can definitely cause confusion as to a person's nationality. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 14:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Are you sure all those flags are necessary or appropriate? They seem to complicate the issue, and introduce problems like, what flag do you use for someone born in Tibet in 1932? Or 1950? What do you use for someone born in Nanjing or Hong Kong in 1944, or Taiwan in 1935? -- PalaceGuard008 ( Talk) 07:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I know my reasons are getting exhaustive, but despite anything, I still continue to support flags!!! I mean, in a war article for example, or a football match. It is so much more meaningful to have flags vs flags. And plainly, I think wikipedia has enough txt in it, a touch of graphic here and there really wont hurt. As for the confusion and error, it will exactly happen in text also. Take the example of "The Republic of China was already established, but the Qing emperor had not yet abdicated. Mongolia had declared independence, but it was not recognised by China - what flag do you use for someone born in Outer Mongolia at that time?". What will a person write in text of the person born in outer mongolia at that time? It is in the same situation as flags. So flags+text is just as, if not more effective than just text. Dengero 07:39, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
You are saying that we dont need to place the nation column at all in profile of the artist/person. Dengero 23:24, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Really, flags are completely unnecessary. It's not needed to convey location or nationality. I am against using flags for locations of birth and death. But for nationality, I am neutral to flag usage even though I don't think it's necessary. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 04:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
By the way, WP:FLAG is now an MoS guideline. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 15:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I know this doesn't relate to the discussion board, but this is really the only place I've been hanging out so far and I can't find any other wikiprojects relating to TVB dramas. So yeah. Anywayz, I find that lots and lots of TVB drama pages has various forums and fansites linked to them. And I mean alot. From known ones like AsianFanatics right up to some weird site with only 4 memebrs or something. Should I do a major cleanup? I'm afraid of a backlash really to be honest. Dengero 12:43, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
As always, make sure you have reliable sources. Forums are not considered reliable sources. Your best bet for TVB dramas are probably Chinese-language websites or Chinese-language news sources. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 05:34, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Someone with a HK IP deleted the image of Sunboyz out of Music of Hong Kong. Is it a bad caption or something missing? Benjwong 17:03, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I've created a template specifically for actors/singers in the Chinese entertainment industry and I've added it to Maggie Cheung. Please take a look - Template:Infobox Chinese actor and singer. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 18:40, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Now that Fiona Sit uses this template, gives us the instructions when you want to mass spread it. Dengero 10:14, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
That looks good. Can't believe how easy you fixed it. Let's mass spread this thing for all the artists, actors, groups etc. Benjwong 07:36, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks very much for this, Hong. I'll implement your new infobox in the template page sometime soon. Arsonal ( talk) 20:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The TVB series Steps, someone edited the name of the character Wallace from Stephen to Francios. I know the guy came from France, but I'm not really sure of the name. Anyone know? Dengero 08:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Serious grammar fixing required for Heart of Greed. Anyone game enough? :P I did only just pass my last english assignment ~.~ Dengero 13:05, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
After seeing 3 chapters of Marriage of Inconvenience I fell in love with Toby so I decide to create her page lol. Anyway, I used the new template for her, worked very well btw. Can anyone help me translate those awards? Whoever translated the awards for Fiona Sit did a fantastic job. And errrm....can someone teach me how to put up music samples? Thankyou in advance ^^. And I also created a page for her album Bear In Mind. If you want you can watch both pages. Again, thx ^^. And! One last thing! Can we delete/archive stuff already decided on this page like the flag one. Dengero ( talk) 07:24, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Is anyone (other than Benjwong, who's been doing a lot of the replacing, and H7G, the maestro behind the box) up for some mass infobox replacing? Pandacomics ( talk) 21:54, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Please start tagging discography and list pages with {{WikiProject China|class=na|entertainment=yes}}. Thanks. — Arsonal ( talk) 15:58, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I was looking at the cantopop listing of artists. Maybe the page should be limited to mainstream only. Groups like AMK and Dear Jane? I really have never heard of them. Is it just me? Benjwong ( talk) 06:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I think the Cantopop and Mandopop labels are definitely over-used. And I wonder if the Cantopop and Mandopop articles are in violation of WP:Original research because they mostly describe music in Cantonese and Mandarin. But as I understand it, Cantopop and Mandopop is mostly used to referred to "manufactured" pop music that relies heavily on marketting. But there are really plenty of Chinese musicians that don't really fit that label. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 07:44, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Has anybody ever given thought to retooling this WikiProject to encompass Chinese TV and films? As you know, there's often a lot of crossover between the Chinese acting industry and the Chinese singing industry. I know it would be a lot of work, but it would increase the range of this WikiProject, and there are a lot of articles on Chinese films and actors that could use the attention. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 07:20, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
The Chinese cinema workgroup over at WikiProject China has been inactive for nearly a year ( Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Films/Chinese cinema task force). Honestly, editors at WikiProject China are usually not interested in subjects related to modern entertainment. I'd be willing to do much of the work necessary to retool the WikiProject if others think it may be a good idea to do the expansion. But on the other hand, I don't think we should do this unless we can get unanimous approval to do so. To reiterate, I'm throwing out the idea of expanding this WikiProject to include the film and TV industries, so basically everything in the modern Chinese (or Chinese-language) entertainment industry. There're a lot of small articles on Chinese movies and TV series, we can use this WikiProject to coordinate efforts to improve those articles. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 23:56, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, I'd imagine it would be either a "sister" or "child" WikiProject to WP:China and other relevant WikiProjects. First let's see if we can get everybody's approval for this, then we can iron out the specifics later, things like scope - include only the entertainment industry in Greater China? Or all Chinese-language entertainment globally? What should we name it? etc etc. The holidays are coming up, I suggest we continue this conversation and after the new year I'll put up a poll to officially see if there are any objections. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 19:41, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
We can say worldwide, though 95% of the topics probably come out of Taiwan, HK, Singapore, Malaysia, mainland China or areas near by. Can we decide on what to include/exclude?
My main concern is that we might be spreading ourselves too thin. If you hadn't noticed, most of the "grunt work" is being done by the four of us, plus Dengero, Ushimaru, and IceDevil. If we expand our scope too far, it's going to stretch us quite a bit. Pandacomics ( talk) 16:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Hmm... that kind of defeats the purpose of how I want to expand the WikiProject. I don't think any editor really is required to edit film-related articles if we expanded the WikiProject to include films, unless the editor is actually interested in doing so. I'm not sure I agree that it'll stretch the work. I was just thinking that this WikiProject is a good place to coordinate editing Chinese films and TV series as well. Plus, there's a chance other editors would be interested in joining if it was expanded to include films. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 04:25, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Alright, it seems like there are objections to expansion into films. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 21:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Well again, I don't think we should expand into films unless we have unanimous support for it. And the Chinese cinema taskforce has only three comments at the Talk page, made by only two editors, and the last comment made over a year ago. If we ever get unanimous support for expansion into films, we can leave a comment over at the Chinese cinema taskforce to see if there are any objections to it being absorbed by this WikiProject. I honestly doubt there will be any objections. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 01:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Sorry about the late-ness in adding my 2c. Well, about the point that we're spread too thin if we increase our range, the thing is, (we're) already doing the job lol. Dengero ( talk) 02:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Just wondering if/when this will take place. It is already May, haha. I'm interested in helping out, particularly with HK TV shows, actors and actresses. I just feel there needs to be a manual of style for a lot of the articles... they're lacking any standard. The western style ones don't really fit. Skyezx 05:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
By the way, I just discovered this template - Template:Infobox Chinese Film - I think many of the articles for Chinese films are not using this template. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 22:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to do something about the news where a photo was posted on the internet of her and edison chen in the bed. Until we write something about it, vandalism will keep going lol. Dengero ( talk) 06:25, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
A number of album articles have been listed at Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English for needing translation:
Please help in translating these. But before we do that, maybe we ought to come up with a standard way to translate these album articles. Do we list the original Chinese song titles first? Do we then put in parenthesis the title translation? Or maybe we do a romanisation of the Chinese song titles? I'm opened to anything. But I thought it would be good to set a standard so we have a guideline for how to format these translations. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 04:43, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
By the way, after one of these articles has been translated, make sure you de-tag it and de-list it from Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English. Also, if any editor is interested in doing article translations, keep Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English on your watchlist. I would say that about half the Chinese-language articles that get listed there are album articles or otherwise articles related to the Chinese music industry. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 15:53, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
One more left. It's not an album, but a singing competition show in Taiwan - One Million Star, Season 2. I've translated most of the theme names of the different episodes, but I'm not sure how to translate a few of them. I don't watch singing competition shows so I was a little confused by some of the names. We also need to find out if the contestants of the show have English names that they use, if not, then I guess we just romanise like One Million Star, Season 1. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 02:33, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Nlu has tabled a proposal involving the recategorization of C-pop artists. He proposes the following:
I have qualms with the following points, outlined as follows.
Hell, I'd be happy to get rid off all categories that refer to Mandopop or Cantopop. It's not like there's a definitive authority that slaps those labels on musical acts. It might be easy to categorise an act like S.H.E, but are acts like 五月天 and 陳綺貞 considered Mandopop? Their music is not very "pop" sounding, but they sure have the marketting, music videos, etc, that pop stars have. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 04:24, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I'll say this again -- Pandacomics, please read WP:CAT and WP:SUBCAT. When you are still stating "not all Taiwanese singers sing in Mandarin" (very true) as an argument of making Category:Taiwanese singers a subcategory of Category:Republic of China singers, I have to believe that you don't understand the nuances of how subcategories work. (There are other valid arguments against such a categorization, as you yourself wrote already, but this was not a valid one.) -- Nlu ( talk) 13:45, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
And going back to your point about WP:CAT, to give you a taste of your own medicine, it says here: In general, avoid subcategorizing subjects by geographical boundary if that boundary does not have any relevant bearing on the subjects' other characteristics. Does being Taiwanese/Malaysian/Singaporean have any bearing on their existence as Mandopop artists? No. They still sing in the Mandopop industry. From WP:SUBCAT, "When an article is put into a subcategory based on an attribute that is not the first thing most people would think of to categorise it, it should be left in the parent category as well." When people want to look for or refer to a Cantopop artist, they aren't going to say "Oh, are there any good Hong Kong Cantopop artists?" Same with Mandopop. "Are there any good Singaporean Mandopop artists?" There's a reason that in music stores, CDs are lumped by language and by genre. Not by geography (unless you're looking for World Music, which Mandopop/Cantopop are not.) The subdivision of "Mandopop singers" into "(region) Mandopop singers" would thus violate that particular WP:SUBCAT criterion. And finally, for future reference, from WP:CAT, "if you decide that a large category should be depopulated and the entries re-categorized into sub-categories, add this template to the category page {{Verylarge}}". As opposed to, you know, re-categorizing things in a very unilateral manner. Pandacomics ( talk) 14:51, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Pandacomics ( talk) 15:31, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 1 Per Hong's concern over Mayday's status as an actual Mandopop band as opposed to being a Chinese rock artist:
i.e.
Mandarin-language singers
Cantonese-language singers
Comments
Proposal 1a
Same as above, but with the following modification:
Mandarin-language singers
Taiwanese artists
Comments
The structure, as you've written in both your Proposal 1 and Proposal 1a, Pandacomics, won't work. First of all, "XXX artists" is taken already and used for a different purpose (for people involved in the arts). Second, even if they were not taken, "Taiwanese artists," even when used in a musical sense, as you yourself noted, won't necessarily be Mandarin singers, so it would really has to be "Taiwanese Mandarin-language singers." Basically, you have to make sure that your categories are well-conceived and wouldn't cause further confusion, and also have to be logically correct. -- Nlu ( talk) 00:46, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Mandarin-language singers
Pandacomics ( talk) 20:32, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
We are not getting rid of the mandopop and cantopop category per the trees above, right? Benjwong ( talk) 03:58, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
By just looking at the disaster on Aska Yang, I think we really need to set a manual of style. Now. (I know many, many other users have called for this. This is definitely not the first proposal.) Any suggestions? I know a Career section will be almost mandatory; same goes for our infoboxes. We still haven't established a consensus on categories, so I guess we can start on the article sectioning first.
Pandacomics ( talk) 23:40, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Is this going to be the place where we can put in our two CEnts? Har har. Pandacomics ( talk) 01:40, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
(Typo intended.) In the manual of style, I'd absolutely love to include a section on when to use the simple past (e.g. released) and when to use the present perfect (e.g. has released). Anonymous/new editors seem to be obsessed with using the present perfect for reasons beyond my comprehension. WHY? Pandacomics ( talk) 18:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)