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Biaina Geragousian: Local girls champion of 2004, rated 2000. Should there not be a limit? Guido den Broeder ( talk) 07:38, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
If this has not been done before... following on from the above discussion, I'd like to suggest the following (flexible) guidelines for notability, which I think constitute a fair reading of WP:BIO:
Notability is a minefield. I sympathise with the desire to spare newbie editors the pain of seeing their contributions deleted. But:
The GA-review of Alexander Alekhine has started. Please come on the Talk page of the article and see if you can help, so that we get one more article recognised as a good one by the Wikipedia community! SyG ( talk) 20:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
The GA review wil resume on 26 May. There are still several points that lack refs. Please help! Philcha ( talk) 20:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
In Jan 2008 there was a proposal to merge this into the World Chess Championship. There was extensive debate at Talk:Interregnum of World Chess Champions until late April 2008, but nothing since. I suggest the "merger proposed - please discuss" tag should be removed. Philcha ( talk) 14:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
In the course of researching for articles about individual "world number ones" I've found enough sources about "world champion" to push the historical account back to the mid-1840s, plus a lot of other sources for the rest of the 19th century. The trouble is that using it would:
I've started updating this. There's now a debate at Talk:World Chess Championship#Structure about how it's developing. If you have an opinion, please state it there. Philcha ( talk) 00:15, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Alexander Alekhine was the first article in which we tried presenting detailed results as tables, because previously the results made most of the the text an indigestible catalogue of results. After the GA review of Alexander Alekhine, Nikki 311 suggested it might be a good idea to split the results tables inot a separate "List of .." article, as Alexander Alekhine is currently 93 KB.
I've since tried result tables in Howard Staunton (60 KB), Wilhelm Steinitz (60 KB) and Adolf Anderssen (35 KB), who played chess in the mid to late 19th century, when opportunities for formal competition were much less frequent. IMO comparing Howard Staunton, Wilhelm Steinitz and Adolf Anderssen suggests the amount of text is the most significant influence on length: Staunton and Steinitz were controversial and historically important (like Alekhine), so there was a lot of text to write; Anderssen was simply a nice guy who was world #1 for most of 15 years.
My own feelings are: a consistent format would be helpful to readers; it might be good to see how tables in the same article work out for 1 or 2 other mid to late 20th century players, to see if the same format works in modern conditions, where a GM can play 6 strong tournaments per year. Since producing such tables is not a fun job, I suggest the least laborious way to check whether result tables work for modern players is to see how many tournmants, matches and Olympiads, etc. were played by various modern players - e.g. whose first formal competition (including junior events, etc.) was after 1970 and who are now regarded as retired. A table would be a good way to summarise the results of such a survey, here's a table for the data, starting with a summary for Alekhine, who is the baseline. (the "signature" column will prevent SignBot from complaining and messing up the data). Of the numbers, "Total events" is the most important for the impact on article length.
Player | Date range | No. of individual tournaments | No. of matches | No. of team tournaments | Total events | Your signature |
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Alexander Alekhine | 1907-1946 | 87 | 34 | 5 | 126 | Philcha ( talk) 13:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC) |
K-value and K Factor (chess) are up for merging into Elo rating system, but I'm not sure there is anything in those articles worth merging. Should they be deleted instead? Bubba73 (talk), 14:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
There has been some possible linkspam by User:Anik103. Look at the user's contributions and see what you think. Bubba73 (talk), 02:15, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
The GA-review of First-move advantage in chess has (finally) started! Due to a new procedure for GA reviews it is not taking place on the Talk page of the article but here. Please come by and see if you can hep! SyG ( talk) 19:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I suggest we keep an image gallery at a sub-page of Wikipedia:WikiProject Chess, with a link to it on Wikipedia:WikiProject Chess. That will give us a single, easily-found repository of images for use in articles. We could start by moving World Chess Championship/Gallery to the sub-page. Or perhaps qwe should look ahead and have different gallery sub-pages for e.g. players from different periods, game poisiotns, opening variations and problems and endgame studies. Philcha ( talk) 12:40, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Would it be worth trying to get Howard Staunton and Adolf Anderssen to GA? Philcha ( talk) 10:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
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I'd like chessplayer articles to show more samples of their play because that's why we have articles about them and it makes a change from endless mugshots. The difficulty is where to put the continuations: if we put them in the main text, it disrupts the flow; if we put them in the captions, the diagrams get longer and and spill into the next section; if we put them in footnotes the reader has to jump backwards and forwards, or show the footnoote in a separate window / tab and flip between these.
I've found a way to present the continuation in a "show"/"hide" box in the diagram's caption. Here's the code for the sample diagram's caption (goes in the last section of Template:Chess diagram):
{{Hidden | header = <p style="margin-right:8em; height=auto;">Botvinnik-Yudovich, USSR Championship 1933</p> | content = After [[sacrifice (chess) | sacrificing]] a piece to expose Black's King, Botvinnik played 1. Bh5+ and Yudovich resigned as mate is inevitable, e.g. 1. ... Kxh5; 2. Ng3+ followed by 3. Qe4+ Rf4; 4. Qxf4#. |headercss=height:auto; |fw1=normal }}
Notes:
I have not yet found a way to reduce the gap between the top of the caption and the bottom of the diagram. If we use diagrams with hidden continuations, we should also consider creating a wrapper template that hides the messy coding so that one simply specifies: bold / normal font for the header text; left / centre alignment for the header text; the header and content text. A wrapper may also make internationalisation easier, as "show"/"hide" may be longer in other languages, so the header text's right margin would have to increase. What does the team think? Philcha ( talk) 10:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
{{Hidden | header = <p style="margin-right:4em; height=auto; font-size:100%; line-height:110%;"> Botvinnik-Yudovich, USSR Championship 1933</p> | content = After [[sacrifice (chess) | sacrificing]] a piece to expose Black's King, Botvinnik played 1. Bh5+ and Yudovich resigned as mate is inevitable, e.g. 1. ... Kxh5; 2. Ng3+ followed by 3. Qe4+ Rf4; 4. Qxf4#. | headercss=height:auto; font-size:120%; | fw1 = normal | contentcss = font-size:120%; line-height:130%; }}
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I've produced a template Template:HiddenMultiLine which acts as an easy-to-use wrapper, hiding all the messy stuff needed to make Template:Hidden do what's needed. The coding to produce the caption for the diagram on the right is:
{{HiddenMultiLine | Botvinnik-Yudovich,<br />USSR Championship 1933 | After [[sacrifice (chess) | sacrificing]] a piece to expose Black's King, Botvinnik played 1. Bh5+ and Yudovich resigned as mate is inevitable, e.g. 1. ... Kxh5; 2. Ng3+ followed by 3. Qe4+ Rf4; 4. Qxf4#. }}
I've changed the default alignment of the always-visible text to "left" as I think that's OK for competitive games and and probably better for e.g. opening variations, problems, etc. Philcha ( talk) 12:26, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
PS I've just found that "cite web" works OK in both caption/header and content, and have updated the sample diagram. The nice thing is that "cite web" allows a <br /> tag in its "title" parameter, so you can split the caption into separate lines for players and event. I left the listed coding as-is to avoid making it harder to understand the first time you see it. Philcha ( talk) 15:17, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
The articles Howard Staunton and Adolf Anderssen are now listed for review at WikiProject Chess/Review. Please come by to review the articles, suggest improvements and give your opinion of their quality! SyG ( talk) 12:55, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
It's been bugging me for a while that some important sources for chess history, notably Winter's, are Web-based and therefore will go offline some day, and this would seriously undermine several chess-related articles - and of course we'll get no warning until it happens. I've experimented with including in footnotes references to the original documents cited by chess history Web pages, but now I've come across 2 real show-stoppers - How Capablanca Became World Champion and Capablanca’s Reply to Lasker both contian a huge amount of information about Lasker's abdication in favour of Capa, and the first one also says a clause in the 1913 agreement between Dr Lasker and Rubinstein said the title would pass to Rubinstein if Lasker abdicated; and both cite so many original sources that a mere list of them would be be far too long for a footnote and might be similar in size to a fair-sized Wikipedia article.
I know there's a Web archive somewhere, but relying on that is just putting off the inevitable - it might run out of funds, or start purging older entries, etc.
The best idea I can come up with at present is to create one of more sub-pages (of Emanuel Lasker in this instance) and paste into them the excerpts that Winter cites, with none of Winter's comments. This would probably avoid infringement of Winter's copyrights in many cases, but would leave some outstanding issues including:
I've used Winter as a leading example, but he is not the only chess historian whose work is published mainly on the Web and who cites sources that would be difficult to trace if the pages went offline - the articles of Trevor Kingston, Tim Harding and Jeremy Spinrad at Chesscafe come to mind.
Does anyone have any suggestions? Philcha ( talk) 18:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
There has been recently a lot of talk about the fact that the B-class for the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment was too broad, i.e. the distance between B-class of lower quality and B-class of higher quality was too important. The consensus has been to add a C-class between Start-class and B-class (see discussion here). That means we have to sort once again all the existing B-class articles between the new C-class and the new B-class. Now my proposal would be to list automatically all the existing B-class articles into the new C-class, and then to let the best of them "manually" upgrade into B-class as time goes by. Opinions ? SyG ( talk) 21:23, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
First-move advantage in chess is now an A-class and a GA-class article. The only impediment to FA status that the GA reviewer, Noble Story, identified is that the article had text sandwiched between two images. Artichoker and I have now remedied that problem (at the cost of four diagrams, unfortunately). Should we nominate the article for FA now? Krakatoa ( talk) 05:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Congratulations! Now a Featured Article. Well done everyone (particularly Krakatoa of course). Pawnkingthree ( talk) 15:32, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Can I ask how reliable is Chessmetrics, is it still original research, or has any qualified statistician reviewed and approved of it?-- ZincBelief ( talk) 15:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I wonder how many people one can reasonably invite to a Chess Ratings conference. :) On examination this seems to be a bastardised form of performance rating, I find the inclusion of 4 draws in any result to be very odd indeed. It does remain performance rating based though, I am not convinced this gives a better long term view of a player's rating, but overall it appears to be reasonable enough. There are some obvious concerns. The effect of feeder ELO rating inflation. The appearance of less than 8 players on the rating list.-- ZincBelief ( talk) 19:52, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
After about one week of extremely intense and challenging work, the article succeeded its FA-review (see here). That means the number of FA articles within the WikiProject Chess has increased by 50% ! (well, from 2 to 3...)
Many thanks to Krakatoa who took this article from scratch only 3 months ago and in such a short time got it through A-review, GA-review and FA-review, with more than 850 edits. Clearly an unbelievable feat!
Thanks also to all members of the WikiProject Chess who contributed to the reviews, notably Caissa's DeathAngel, Sjakkalle, Ioannes Pragensis, Bubba73 (who actually created the article), SunCreator and Voorlandt.
Finally, thanks to all editors of the article, mostly the people mentioned above but also Quale, Brittle heaven, Pawnkingthree, Guido den Broeder, Artichoker and Philcha.
Next step (yes, there is a next step after FA): get to the Main Page! SyG ( talk) 18:06, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes!!!! Two of the central figures in the article, Richard Réti and Andrew Soltis, were both born on May 28!!!! Wait, you say they're not central figures in the article? Never mind. Krakatoa ( talk) 17:59, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Congratulations on getting FA class. Especially to Krakatoa whom applied much effort and put together most of it. In my view this article is outstanding and much better then most other FA Class wikipedia articles. SunCreator ( talk) 13:19, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi everyone, I've been meaning to do this for a while now. I'd like to see the article Caïssa much improved if possible. My username suggests an interest in the subject, and it is also rated by this project as a High Class article, despite being start. I've checked the other language versions of it and they are all much the same, but I think they could be better. Anybody willing to assist? Getting the ball rolling isn't my strong suit on these matters, I'm far better at running away with it once I'm going. Thanks. Caissa's DeathAngel ( talk) 16:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I think Weaver Adams is a lot better than Start-Class now. Anyone care to reassess it? Krakatoa ( talk) 07:45, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.
Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.
Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot ( Disable) 22:09, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
At Talk:Howard_Staunton#The_Staunton-Morphy_controversy I suggested that the controversy should be made the subject of a separate article since: we now have enough sources to support a separate article; a blow-by-blow account would take up a huge chunk of Howard Staunton; I'm hoping more material will be available in a few weeks. The advantages of a separate article are that it can expand as we get new material and can be used as a "see also" in both Howard Staunton and Paul Morphy without taking up disproportionate space in the Staunton and Morphy articles. Would you please comment on this suggestion at Talk:Howard_Staunton#The_Staunton-Morphy_controversy. -- Philcha ( talk) 21:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
I've started The Staunton-Morphy controversy and got a lot of the chronology in place, but it could use a lot more quotations etc, with WP:RS. Please respond at Talk:The Staunton-Morphy controversy, which presents a shopping list. -- Philcha ( talk) 23:50, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Best greetings from the German Wikipedia chess friends. Our article on Chess problems made it, somewhat surprisingly, to the Main Portal (July 16). Even without any German knowledge, you may enjoy this rare view (see Chessbase News [6]). Did it ever happen here so far? -- DaQuirin ( talk) 21:32, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
There are hundreds of articles about players. Their ratings generally change a little each time a new rating list comes out. I don't think we need to track those little details. For one thing, it takes a lot of effort of editors. Secondly, if the reader wants the exact rating or details, they can go to the FIDE site or the national organization. Also, I think it is misleading to give the current rating of someone who is way past their prime. They may have once been over 2600 but now their rating is 2400. So I have a couple of ideas: 1. give the peak rating. Then after a certain point it won't have to be updated. 2. It is close enough to round it off to the nearest 100 or maybe 50, i.e. "once rated over 2500" or 2550. Bubba73 (talk), 20:04, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Currently, 2669 articles are assigned to this project, of which 431, or 16.1%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 14 July 2008.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. Subscribing is easy - just add a template to your project page. If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page. -- B. Wolterding ( talk) 08:45, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
I found some chess openings articles with so called Illustrative games. I really dont see what these games have to offer us. So i propose deleting all this. And if some game does have something interesting that is useful in the article, a Chess Diagram template can be used and link to ChessGames can be offered.
So that anyone understands what Im trying to say: Ponziani_Opening here you can see two games, without any explanation at all about why they are there. So template can be used to show the critical situation that explains about the opening's dynamics. Lab-oratory ( talk) 16:34, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
As long as they're used sparingly, with accompanying explanation, I don't have a problem. I'm not so keen on a long list of games in an external links section; those should be avoided. Pawnkingthree ( talk) 11:34, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I don't have any real problem with illustrative games and have added a few to articles. Certainly, there shouldn't be long lists of random games culled from some database but, if used sparingly (and I think The Oxford Companion to Chess is a good example here), they can help give a greater understanding of the subject, help establish notability and also improve linkage to other articles. My main criteria for inclusion would be;
There may of course be other valid reasons too. Brittle heaven ( talk) 22:05, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Here is a brief update on the development of different quality reviews.
This review is done in the scope of the WikiProject Chess and is transcluded from Wikipedia:WikiProject Chess/Review/Howard Staunton. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Nomination by Philcha |
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Howard Staunton - as good as I can make it right now Philcha ( talk) 16:18, 17 June 2008 (UTC) |
Review by SyG: conclusion was "Oppose to A-class, support nomination for GA-class" | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Assess as GA-class I think the article is now good enough to be presented for a GA-review. SyG ( talk) 09:53, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
General remarks
Lead
Staunton's life (introduction)
Staunton's life: First steps in chess
Staunton's life: Matches against Saint-Amant
Staunton's life: Chess writer and promoter
Staunton's life: London International Tournament
Staunton's life: Later life
Playing strength and style
Personality
Influence on chess
Notable games
Tournament results
Match results
Wow, you're working your socks off! What's the French for that? Thanks for giving it so much care and attention. Philcha ( talk) 23:00, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
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Review by Brittle heaven: conclusion was "Oppose to A-class, support nomination for GA-class" |
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Comment I agree with SyG; without pre-judging the outcome of any review, the article is already impressive and his extensive comments will certainly help. And while there may be more material that could be included in the article, the present version seems to cover all of the important points very competently. Consequently, I will restrict my comments to just a few suggestions:-
Regards, Brittle heaven ( talk) 15:11, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Oppose 'A' Class I believe that the article in it's present form achieves 'GA' Class, but not 'A' Class. In it's scope, content and presentation it very much resembles the Alexander Alekhine article, which is also of 'GA' status. There are probably two distinct areas that I think currently hold it back from a more lofty classification; Staunton's strength. This may be controversial, but I'm really not happy with the way the article handles his chess playing stature; re-checking every competent source in my own library (Golombek, Sunnucks, Hooper & Whyld, Schonberg, Brace and Hartston) each and every one contends that Staunton was (or is generally regarded) the strongest player of his time. I have not read Keene and Coles' lengthy biography Howard Staunton:The English World Chess Champion, but from the title, I'm guessing it arrives at much the same conclusion. So why does this article undersell him as " … probably one of the world's two or three strongest players …" and " … the strongest British player with the possible exception of Buckle …"? Later, there is some (begrudging?) concession that some people hail Staunton as the strongest player, but are we really saying that the Spinrad article takes preference over all the other collected opinions? As much as I think that Spinrad's opinions are well researched and worthy of reproduction, they are still just opinions and I would personally reverse the emphasis in the lead (and elsewhere), giving what I believe to be the overwhelmingly popular view, much greater prominence.
Style. While some style issues can be tolerated within an 'A' Class article I feel that this one is too far away from a good style to be deemed satisfactory.
Finally, I hope that this doesn't seem too harsh. I still consider that the article is very good and well researched—a credit to the hard work that has gone into it. Brittle heaven ( talk) 23:02, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
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Review by Krakatoa: conclusion was "Oppose to A-class" |
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Comment A few remarks: the article claims that The Chess-Player's Handbook did not go out of print until 1993. That seems improbable. I have three copies of the book, which were printed in 1888, 1890, and 1893; one does not see versions for sale on eBay that were printed later than the 1890s, or maybe the 1900s. There might be a Hardinge Simpole version of the book or something many decades after that, but I would be surprised if the book were continuously in print until 1993.
Is the Internet user "batgirl" really an authoritative source?!
I earlier added Fischer's assessment of Staunton as being in the top 10 players of all time, and his explanation thereof, from the January-February 1964 issue of Chessworld magazine. I see from the above comments that Philcha deleted that, apparently considering batgirl a more authoritative source than Fischer, generally agreed to be one of the two strongest players in the history of the world. The mind boggles. Krakatoa ( talk) 09:49, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
The paragraph that I wrote about Fischer's assessment read as follows:
It seems to me that the manner in which Philcha deleted this paragraph was rather irregular, to say the least. The paragraph was last included in this version. Philcha deleted it (May 23, 2008 20:02), "explaining" in the revision history "(intro (almost done))". That is not enlightening, nor did Philcha put anything on the article's talk page about this omission. I am going to re-add this paragraph to the article. The Fischer article was published in 1964, by which time Fischer was already one of the strongest players of all time and a serious candidate for the world championship. Although Philcha does not think much of the article, it is significant enough to have been cited by Kasparov, for example. My Great Predecessors, Part IV, p. 87 (quoting Fischer's "splendid tribute" to Reshevsky in that article). Krakatoa ( talk) 10:51, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Staunton's combative writing Winter ( CN 4276: Rude and CN 4337: A chess Watergate) provides examples of acerbic comments by other writers of the time. Should I add a note about this to the comments about Staunton's chess writing style, e.g. "However his contemporaries could also be quite belligerent" (with these citations)? Philcha ( talk) 11:20, 27 June 2008 (UTC) Another of Winter's articles provides many examples of Attacks on Howard Staunton. Philcha ( talk) 23:58, 28 June 2008 (UTC) Influence on chess Krakatoa edited in the history of the Sicilian from Staunton's time to about 1900, which is fine. But after pointing out that the Sicilian almost vanished after the deaths of Staunton and Anderssen, the current version of the paragraph abruptly ends with "The Sicilian is today the most popular chess opening and the most successful response to 1.e4". Right now I can see 3 ways to deal with this:
Any suggestions? Philcha ( talk) 11:47, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Krakatoa has done a lot more than clarify the bit about the Sicilian. He has edited into the "Influence" section every attack on Staunton he could find. The placement of this content in the "Influence section evades the counter-balancing points made in the "Assessment" section, and is irrelevant to the question of Staunton's influence. No doubt Krakatoa will argue that sources are sources. OK, try Site review - Online book catalogs (III; Howard Staunton) by Mark Weeks. Philcha ( talk) 20:03, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Lead I don't understand the first sentence in the article: "Howard Staunton (April 1810 – June 22, 1874) was an English chess master who was probably one of the world's two strongest players from 1843 to 1851." Why "probably one of the world's two strongest?" Maybe I am missing something, but as far as I can see this doesn't tie into anything in the rest of the article. The article says, for example, that some people (mostly Englishmen) hailed S as world champion; other Europeans were less enthusiastic about that idea; even some Englishmen thought S wasn't the best, preferring someone else, notably Buckle or von der Lasa (note that if both Buckle and von der Lasa were better than S, than would make him No. 3); Chessmetrics ranks S No. 1 in the world 1843-49 (I'm leaving off the months) and in the top 10 from 1851 on (Chessmetrics apparently doesn't address 1849-51? This also wouldn't support saying "top 2 from 1843-51", seemingly.); and Elo said that except for Morphy (whose playing career began well after 1851) S scored best against other top players in 1846-62 (this would support "No. 1 in 1843-51", not "top 2"). Someone should either explain why this sentence is consistent with the rest of the article, or revise it. Krakatoa ( talk) 03:07, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Paul Morphy The article covers the Staunton-Morphy controversy in the most bland and Staunton-favorable manner imaginable. The text (including that accompanying the picture of Paul Morphy) is flagrantly POV. It also cites H.J.R. Murray as though he were the only person who had ever written on the subject, and treats what Murray says as the final (and only) word. Here is a timeline I have constructed from the Internet source "batgirl," who is cited (except on this subject!) throughout the article. (Everything on batgirl's website regarding Staunton and Morphy appears to be copied, without attribution, from print sources.) All dates are in 1858: June 23: Morphy, following his arrival in England, meets Staunton and inquires about match. Staunton agrees but asks for a month to brush up on his openings. Morphy agrees. Thereafter, Morphy and Barnes play two consultation games against Staunton and Owen at Staunton's country home, winning 2-0. [22] Early July – Staunton asks for more time, specifically until after the Birmingham tournament, which begins August 24. Morphy reluctantly agrees. Id. August 14 – Morphy sends Staunton a note asking to firm up match arrangements. Staunton says he needs still more time. [23] August 21 – Morphy again asks Staunton to set definite terms for the match, any terms he wants. Staunton leaves for Birmingham without replying. Id. Late August – Morphy goes to Birmingham, finds Staunton; Staunton immediately takes "the initiative, asking for more time, citing his urgent business and his publisher's pressure, etc. Morphy, exasperated, ask[s], 'Mr. Staunton, will you play in October, in November, or December? Chose your own time but let the decision be final.' Staunton replie[s], 'Well, Mr. Morphy, if you will consent to the postponement, I will play you the beginning of November. I will see my publishers and let you know the exact date in a few days.'" Id. August 28 – Staunton, using a tactic for which he has become infamous, publishes a letter in his own chess column, signed by "Anti-book" but undoubtedly written by Staunton himself, in which he falsely claims that (1) Morphy had failed to bring representatives to resolve the terms of the match; (2) Morphy did not have the necessary stakes for the match, and (3) Morphy had asked that the stakes be reduced from £1000 a side to £500 a side. Morphy does not respond to this calumny. [24] October 6 – Morphy, after winning his match with Harrwitz, writes to Staunton "expressing his dismay at the Anti-book letter, blankly declaring the availability of the stakes to any amount, and solving the question of seconds. He asked yet again for a fixed date, mentioning that a copy of the letter would go to several editors to clear any public misconceptions." Id. October 9 – Staunton replies, "reiterating all his same reasons for previous postponements, but now using them to bow out of the match altogether." Id. October 23 – "Staunton published his entire reply along with a partial rendition of Morphy's original letter (leaving out any reference to Anti-book). This [leads] to a series of exchanges of anonymous and acrimonious letters in different columns." Id. Morphy does not engage in any of this, but writes a letter to British Chess Association president Lord Lyttelton, "explaining his own efforts to bring about the match, Staunton's efforts to avoid the match with everything short of admitting he didn't wish to play, and of Staunton's twisting of the facts in the Illustrated London News, demanding 'that you shall declare to the world it is through no fault of mine that this match has not taken place.'" "Lord Lyttelton replied with a mild rebuke of Staunton's tactics and the assurance that no one blamed Morphy for the situation. The letters continued, Staunton's vituperations against Morphy continued, but the situation was basically settled in the public's mind since all but one British chess club, the Cambridge University Chess Club, denounced Staunton's actions in this matter." Id. To sum up: repeated agreement by Staunton that he would play the match, but four requests by Staunton for additional time to prepare (made June 23, early July, August 14, late August); the August 28 "Anti-book" letter published in Staunton's column making false and slanderous charges against Morphy; Staunton bowing out of the match on October 9; Staunton publishing an incomplete account of the facts on October 23; Staunton continuing his vituperations against Morphy; no such slanders by Morphy, whose actions are at all times completely gentlemanly, at any time; Staunton's actions are denounced by all British chess clubs, with only one exception. The article presents none of this, nor does it explain what, if anything, about the above account is wrong. Rather, it suggests that Morphy failed to comprehend that Staunton was declining his offer, that Staunton acted honorably but was unable to play the match because of his health and work (the batgirl account says nothing in this regard about Staunton's purported health problems), and that the worst thing Staunton did was not declining Morphy's offer more clearly. This appears to be a blatant whitewash, and a flagrant violation of WP:NPOV. Krakatoa ( talk) 08:13, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Conclusion I am on vacation right now, and thus would not normally be posting a comment at this time. However, SyG on my Talk page asked my current assessment of the article (A-class, GA-class, or something else) because he wanted to close the A-class review. The article is very well done in most respects, and in most respects I would have no problem supporting A class. However, regretfully I do not feel it warrants A class at this time because of its treatment of the Staunton-Morphy controversy. The section on that controversy is written in a strange way, starting out with a lengthy attack on Frederick Edge rather than discussing what Edge says. Edge (and later Lawson, who relies in part on Edge) set out a lengthy chronology of events (various letters, multiple requested postponements by Staunton to which Morphy assents, the infamous "anti-book" letter published in Staunton's column, and Staunton's final declination of the match), which is decidedly unflattering to Staunton. (I set out a brief chronology of those events above under "Paul Morphy".) The current section on the Staunton-Morphy controversy does not set out those events, but instead focuses on attacking Edge and closes out with Murray, a pro-Staunton commentator who glosses over a lot of relevant events, and treats him as the final word on the subject. I do not think this is a NPOV treatment, nor do I think it is written in an appealing style (the text of the article should focus on the facts as best they can be ascertained rather than on attacking Edge). Thus, at this time I regretfully oppose promoting this article to A class. I intend after I get back home and finish some outstanding personal matters to work on the Staunton-Morphy section. I hope to get that section in a state that I would consider NPOV and A-class-worthy (obviously, others may or may not agree). But if forced to vote today, I must vote against A class. My understanding is that GA class is not formally on the table at the moment, since that review has not started, but at this time I would also oppose GA class for the same reason. I say all of this regretfully, and with utmost respect for all of the work that people have put into the article. Krakatoa ( talk) 13:49, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
|
Conclusion by SyG: A-class was not reached |
---|
All the conditions required to close this review are met:
All reviewers agree this is an outstanding article that Philcha has developed here. Also kudos to him to have stand the continuous flow of "constructive remarks" coming from the reviewers, myself in first place. Unfortunately the article still has issues to deal with:
Therefore, I shall close the review and declare the article is not judged up to the A-class for the moment. I wish to this article a good luck for its try into the GA-review. SyG ( talk) 21:29, 24 July 2008 (UTC) |
SyG ( talk) 20:41, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I was reading about rooks on the seventh rank in a game. The rook is on the seventh rank between two pawns. The defender moves one of the pawns off that rank, and the author uses the term "absolute seventh rank" twice. What does it mean? That the rook has a freer reign? That then it is able to get behind pawns? Other??? Bubba73 (talk), 02:38, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
The site http://www.liverating.org is being put in a few times, especially people with high "live" ratings such as Vassily Ivanchuk and Magnus Carlsen. I've been deleting them because liverating.org is not official, and because the edits are usually anonymous so I suspect spam; and because edits have been phrased in such a way to suggest liverating.org is official (e.g. this edit [27]). Am I being too harsh? Peter Ballard ( talk) 11:22, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
One thing that has frustrated me about many articles is that they refer to tournament categories (Category 20 etc) without defining them. To fix this I've created the Category (chess)
Category (chess tournament) page. So please consider creating a link like
Category 20 next time you come across an article mentioning a tournament category. Thanks!
Peter Ballard (
talk)
05:48, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Anyone want to re-rate Ponziani Opening? I've added a lead, and think it may merit B-class now. Krakatoa ( talk) 19:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
There is a bug in the chess position template.
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The above works, but in the caption, using "=" instead of ":" in the move gives:
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When I was using it in the article, the caption was "68" or something like that. I don't know anything about how to fix it. Can someone? Bubba73 (talk), 23:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Solutions:
I would favour the first method, as it is much simpler and can be used for any character. SyG ( talk) 18:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
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Thanks, that works. But then I realized that standard AN doesn't use "=" before the promoted piece. Back in my day, we used descriptive notation, and my use of "=" is a hangover from that. Nevertheless, there are some times when we need = in the caption. Bubba73 (talk), 22:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Is there a difference between fortress (chess) and a "positional draw"? At least two of my books talk about positional draws, but it is not clear how they are different, except one says that the term "positional draw" is borrowed from endgame study terminology. The article fortress (chess) has a section on positional draws. The first example there seems to be a simple fortress. The second one is more complex, with many more pieces. Bubba73 (talk), 15:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
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Anyone want to re-rate Chess handicap? I've added a lot of stuff to the text, and a genuine lead. I think it may merit B-class now. Krakatoa ( talk) 04:21, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
The sources (see in the article) stating that the Câmara Defense should be named as such appear weak to me for the moment. More reliable sources do not use this name:
So I am considering renaming the article to Gunderam defense. What do your reliable sources say ? SyG ( talk) 08:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
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Captions are not showing up in the small chess diagrams. I don't know how to fix it, does someone know? Bubba73 (talk), 14:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I have just tried changed the template, a bit randomly I must say. It seems to work now in your example, please tell me if you spot unwanted side-effects. SyG ( talk) 15:03, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) Left is better because if you do want to center it, you can use <center> ... </center> on the caption. Bubba73 (talk), 03:35, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
We need to improve rules of chess to bring it up to at least GA class. Presently we have few articles that are GA or better, and some of them I feel don't represent chess particularly well. In my opinion, The Turk (FA class), Bughouse Chess (A class), and Chess boxing (GA class) are not that important to chess. The chess article itself is FA, but I think that the second most important article is rules of chess, currently rated B class (although it may be better than that). I don't want to jump through all of the hoops to get it to GA or better myself, but I will help. What do you think? Bubba73 (talk), 05:55, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 |
Biaina Geragousian: Local girls champion of 2004, rated 2000. Should there not be a limit? Guido den Broeder ( talk) 07:38, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
If this has not been done before... following on from the above discussion, I'd like to suggest the following (flexible) guidelines for notability, which I think constitute a fair reading of WP:BIO:
Notability is a minefield. I sympathise with the desire to spare newbie editors the pain of seeing their contributions deleted. But:
The GA-review of Alexander Alekhine has started. Please come on the Talk page of the article and see if you can help, so that we get one more article recognised as a good one by the Wikipedia community! SyG ( talk) 20:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
The GA review wil resume on 26 May. There are still several points that lack refs. Please help! Philcha ( talk) 20:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
In Jan 2008 there was a proposal to merge this into the World Chess Championship. There was extensive debate at Talk:Interregnum of World Chess Champions until late April 2008, but nothing since. I suggest the "merger proposed - please discuss" tag should be removed. Philcha ( talk) 14:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
In the course of researching for articles about individual "world number ones" I've found enough sources about "world champion" to push the historical account back to the mid-1840s, plus a lot of other sources for the rest of the 19th century. The trouble is that using it would:
I've started updating this. There's now a debate at Talk:World Chess Championship#Structure about how it's developing. If you have an opinion, please state it there. Philcha ( talk) 00:15, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Alexander Alekhine was the first article in which we tried presenting detailed results as tables, because previously the results made most of the the text an indigestible catalogue of results. After the GA review of Alexander Alekhine, Nikki 311 suggested it might be a good idea to split the results tables inot a separate "List of .." article, as Alexander Alekhine is currently 93 KB.
I've since tried result tables in Howard Staunton (60 KB), Wilhelm Steinitz (60 KB) and Adolf Anderssen (35 KB), who played chess in the mid to late 19th century, when opportunities for formal competition were much less frequent. IMO comparing Howard Staunton, Wilhelm Steinitz and Adolf Anderssen suggests the amount of text is the most significant influence on length: Staunton and Steinitz were controversial and historically important (like Alekhine), so there was a lot of text to write; Anderssen was simply a nice guy who was world #1 for most of 15 years.
My own feelings are: a consistent format would be helpful to readers; it might be good to see how tables in the same article work out for 1 or 2 other mid to late 20th century players, to see if the same format works in modern conditions, where a GM can play 6 strong tournaments per year. Since producing such tables is not a fun job, I suggest the least laborious way to check whether result tables work for modern players is to see how many tournmants, matches and Olympiads, etc. were played by various modern players - e.g. whose first formal competition (including junior events, etc.) was after 1970 and who are now regarded as retired. A table would be a good way to summarise the results of such a survey, here's a table for the data, starting with a summary for Alekhine, who is the baseline. (the "signature" column will prevent SignBot from complaining and messing up the data). Of the numbers, "Total events" is the most important for the impact on article length.
Player | Date range | No. of individual tournaments | No. of matches | No. of team tournaments | Total events | Your signature |
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Alexander Alekhine | 1907-1946 | 87 | 34 | 5 | 126 | Philcha ( talk) 13:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC) |
K-value and K Factor (chess) are up for merging into Elo rating system, but I'm not sure there is anything in those articles worth merging. Should they be deleted instead? Bubba73 (talk), 14:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
There has been some possible linkspam by User:Anik103. Look at the user's contributions and see what you think. Bubba73 (talk), 02:15, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
The GA-review of First-move advantage in chess has (finally) started! Due to a new procedure for GA reviews it is not taking place on the Talk page of the article but here. Please come by and see if you can hep! SyG ( talk) 19:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I suggest we keep an image gallery at a sub-page of Wikipedia:WikiProject Chess, with a link to it on Wikipedia:WikiProject Chess. That will give us a single, easily-found repository of images for use in articles. We could start by moving World Chess Championship/Gallery to the sub-page. Or perhaps qwe should look ahead and have different gallery sub-pages for e.g. players from different periods, game poisiotns, opening variations and problems and endgame studies. Philcha ( talk) 12:40, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Would it be worth trying to get Howard Staunton and Adolf Anderssen to GA? Philcha ( talk) 10:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
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I'd like chessplayer articles to show more samples of their play because that's why we have articles about them and it makes a change from endless mugshots. The difficulty is where to put the continuations: if we put them in the main text, it disrupts the flow; if we put them in the captions, the diagrams get longer and and spill into the next section; if we put them in footnotes the reader has to jump backwards and forwards, or show the footnoote in a separate window / tab and flip between these.
I've found a way to present the continuation in a "show"/"hide" box in the diagram's caption. Here's the code for the sample diagram's caption (goes in the last section of Template:Chess diagram):
{{Hidden | header = <p style="margin-right:8em; height=auto;">Botvinnik-Yudovich, USSR Championship 1933</p> | content = After [[sacrifice (chess) | sacrificing]] a piece to expose Black's King, Botvinnik played 1. Bh5+ and Yudovich resigned as mate is inevitable, e.g. 1. ... Kxh5; 2. Ng3+ followed by 3. Qe4+ Rf4; 4. Qxf4#. |headercss=height:auto; |fw1=normal }}
Notes:
I have not yet found a way to reduce the gap between the top of the caption and the bottom of the diagram. If we use diagrams with hidden continuations, we should also consider creating a wrapper template that hides the messy coding so that one simply specifies: bold / normal font for the header text; left / centre alignment for the header text; the header and content text. A wrapper may also make internationalisation easier, as "show"/"hide" may be longer in other languages, so the header text's right margin would have to increase. What does the team think? Philcha ( talk) 10:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
{{Hidden | header = <p style="margin-right:4em; height=auto; font-size:100%; line-height:110%;"> Botvinnik-Yudovich, USSR Championship 1933</p> | content = After [[sacrifice (chess) | sacrificing]] a piece to expose Black's King, Botvinnik played 1. Bh5+ and Yudovich resigned as mate is inevitable, e.g. 1. ... Kxh5; 2. Ng3+ followed by 3. Qe4+ Rf4; 4. Qxf4#. | headercss=height:auto; font-size:120%; | fw1 = normal | contentcss = font-size:120%; line-height:130%; }}
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I've produced a template Template:HiddenMultiLine which acts as an easy-to-use wrapper, hiding all the messy stuff needed to make Template:Hidden do what's needed. The coding to produce the caption for the diagram on the right is:
{{HiddenMultiLine | Botvinnik-Yudovich,<br />USSR Championship 1933 | After [[sacrifice (chess) | sacrificing]] a piece to expose Black's King, Botvinnik played 1. Bh5+ and Yudovich resigned as mate is inevitable, e.g. 1. ... Kxh5; 2. Ng3+ followed by 3. Qe4+ Rf4; 4. Qxf4#. }}
I've changed the default alignment of the always-visible text to "left" as I think that's OK for competitive games and and probably better for e.g. opening variations, problems, etc. Philcha ( talk) 12:26, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
PS I've just found that "cite web" works OK in both caption/header and content, and have updated the sample diagram. The nice thing is that "cite web" allows a <br /> tag in its "title" parameter, so you can split the caption into separate lines for players and event. I left the listed coding as-is to avoid making it harder to understand the first time you see it. Philcha ( talk) 15:17, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
The articles Howard Staunton and Adolf Anderssen are now listed for review at WikiProject Chess/Review. Please come by to review the articles, suggest improvements and give your opinion of their quality! SyG ( talk) 12:55, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
It's been bugging me for a while that some important sources for chess history, notably Winter's, are Web-based and therefore will go offline some day, and this would seriously undermine several chess-related articles - and of course we'll get no warning until it happens. I've experimented with including in footnotes references to the original documents cited by chess history Web pages, but now I've come across 2 real show-stoppers - How Capablanca Became World Champion and Capablanca’s Reply to Lasker both contian a huge amount of information about Lasker's abdication in favour of Capa, and the first one also says a clause in the 1913 agreement between Dr Lasker and Rubinstein said the title would pass to Rubinstein if Lasker abdicated; and both cite so many original sources that a mere list of them would be be far too long for a footnote and might be similar in size to a fair-sized Wikipedia article.
I know there's a Web archive somewhere, but relying on that is just putting off the inevitable - it might run out of funds, or start purging older entries, etc.
The best idea I can come up with at present is to create one of more sub-pages (of Emanuel Lasker in this instance) and paste into them the excerpts that Winter cites, with none of Winter's comments. This would probably avoid infringement of Winter's copyrights in many cases, but would leave some outstanding issues including:
I've used Winter as a leading example, but he is not the only chess historian whose work is published mainly on the Web and who cites sources that would be difficult to trace if the pages went offline - the articles of Trevor Kingston, Tim Harding and Jeremy Spinrad at Chesscafe come to mind.
Does anyone have any suggestions? Philcha ( talk) 18:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
There has been recently a lot of talk about the fact that the B-class for the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment was too broad, i.e. the distance between B-class of lower quality and B-class of higher quality was too important. The consensus has been to add a C-class between Start-class and B-class (see discussion here). That means we have to sort once again all the existing B-class articles between the new C-class and the new B-class. Now my proposal would be to list automatically all the existing B-class articles into the new C-class, and then to let the best of them "manually" upgrade into B-class as time goes by. Opinions ? SyG ( talk) 21:23, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
First-move advantage in chess is now an A-class and a GA-class article. The only impediment to FA status that the GA reviewer, Noble Story, identified is that the article had text sandwiched between two images. Artichoker and I have now remedied that problem (at the cost of four diagrams, unfortunately). Should we nominate the article for FA now? Krakatoa ( talk) 05:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Congratulations! Now a Featured Article. Well done everyone (particularly Krakatoa of course). Pawnkingthree ( talk) 15:32, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Can I ask how reliable is Chessmetrics, is it still original research, or has any qualified statistician reviewed and approved of it?-- ZincBelief ( talk) 15:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I wonder how many people one can reasonably invite to a Chess Ratings conference. :) On examination this seems to be a bastardised form of performance rating, I find the inclusion of 4 draws in any result to be very odd indeed. It does remain performance rating based though, I am not convinced this gives a better long term view of a player's rating, but overall it appears to be reasonable enough. There are some obvious concerns. The effect of feeder ELO rating inflation. The appearance of less than 8 players on the rating list.-- ZincBelief ( talk) 19:52, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
After about one week of extremely intense and challenging work, the article succeeded its FA-review (see here). That means the number of FA articles within the WikiProject Chess has increased by 50% ! (well, from 2 to 3...)
Many thanks to Krakatoa who took this article from scratch only 3 months ago and in such a short time got it through A-review, GA-review and FA-review, with more than 850 edits. Clearly an unbelievable feat!
Thanks also to all members of the WikiProject Chess who contributed to the reviews, notably Caissa's DeathAngel, Sjakkalle, Ioannes Pragensis, Bubba73 (who actually created the article), SunCreator and Voorlandt.
Finally, thanks to all editors of the article, mostly the people mentioned above but also Quale, Brittle heaven, Pawnkingthree, Guido den Broeder, Artichoker and Philcha.
Next step (yes, there is a next step after FA): get to the Main Page! SyG ( talk) 18:06, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes!!!! Two of the central figures in the article, Richard Réti and Andrew Soltis, were both born on May 28!!!! Wait, you say they're not central figures in the article? Never mind. Krakatoa ( talk) 17:59, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Congratulations on getting FA class. Especially to Krakatoa whom applied much effort and put together most of it. In my view this article is outstanding and much better then most other FA Class wikipedia articles. SunCreator ( talk) 13:19, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi everyone, I've been meaning to do this for a while now. I'd like to see the article Caïssa much improved if possible. My username suggests an interest in the subject, and it is also rated by this project as a High Class article, despite being start. I've checked the other language versions of it and they are all much the same, but I think they could be better. Anybody willing to assist? Getting the ball rolling isn't my strong suit on these matters, I'm far better at running away with it once I'm going. Thanks. Caissa's DeathAngel ( talk) 16:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I think Weaver Adams is a lot better than Start-Class now. Anyone care to reassess it? Krakatoa ( talk) 07:45, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.
Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.
Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot ( Disable) 22:09, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
At Talk:Howard_Staunton#The_Staunton-Morphy_controversy I suggested that the controversy should be made the subject of a separate article since: we now have enough sources to support a separate article; a blow-by-blow account would take up a huge chunk of Howard Staunton; I'm hoping more material will be available in a few weeks. The advantages of a separate article are that it can expand as we get new material and can be used as a "see also" in both Howard Staunton and Paul Morphy without taking up disproportionate space in the Staunton and Morphy articles. Would you please comment on this suggestion at Talk:Howard_Staunton#The_Staunton-Morphy_controversy. -- Philcha ( talk) 21:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
I've started The Staunton-Morphy controversy and got a lot of the chronology in place, but it could use a lot more quotations etc, with WP:RS. Please respond at Talk:The Staunton-Morphy controversy, which presents a shopping list. -- Philcha ( talk) 23:50, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Best greetings from the German Wikipedia chess friends. Our article on Chess problems made it, somewhat surprisingly, to the Main Portal (July 16). Even without any German knowledge, you may enjoy this rare view (see Chessbase News [6]). Did it ever happen here so far? -- DaQuirin ( talk) 21:32, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
There are hundreds of articles about players. Their ratings generally change a little each time a new rating list comes out. I don't think we need to track those little details. For one thing, it takes a lot of effort of editors. Secondly, if the reader wants the exact rating or details, they can go to the FIDE site or the national organization. Also, I think it is misleading to give the current rating of someone who is way past their prime. They may have once been over 2600 but now their rating is 2400. So I have a couple of ideas: 1. give the peak rating. Then after a certain point it won't have to be updated. 2. It is close enough to round it off to the nearest 100 or maybe 50, i.e. "once rated over 2500" or 2550. Bubba73 (talk), 20:04, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Currently, 2669 articles are assigned to this project, of which 431, or 16.1%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 14 July 2008.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. Subscribing is easy - just add a template to your project page. If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page. -- B. Wolterding ( talk) 08:45, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
I found some chess openings articles with so called Illustrative games. I really dont see what these games have to offer us. So i propose deleting all this. And if some game does have something interesting that is useful in the article, a Chess Diagram template can be used and link to ChessGames can be offered.
So that anyone understands what Im trying to say: Ponziani_Opening here you can see two games, without any explanation at all about why they are there. So template can be used to show the critical situation that explains about the opening's dynamics. Lab-oratory ( talk) 16:34, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
As long as they're used sparingly, with accompanying explanation, I don't have a problem. I'm not so keen on a long list of games in an external links section; those should be avoided. Pawnkingthree ( talk) 11:34, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I don't have any real problem with illustrative games and have added a few to articles. Certainly, there shouldn't be long lists of random games culled from some database but, if used sparingly (and I think The Oxford Companion to Chess is a good example here), they can help give a greater understanding of the subject, help establish notability and also improve linkage to other articles. My main criteria for inclusion would be;
There may of course be other valid reasons too. Brittle heaven ( talk) 22:05, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Here is a brief update on the development of different quality reviews.
This review is done in the scope of the WikiProject Chess and is transcluded from Wikipedia:WikiProject Chess/Review/Howard Staunton. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Nomination by Philcha |
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Howard Staunton - as good as I can make it right now Philcha ( talk) 16:18, 17 June 2008 (UTC) |
Review by SyG: conclusion was "Oppose to A-class, support nomination for GA-class" | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Assess as GA-class I think the article is now good enough to be presented for a GA-review. SyG ( talk) 09:53, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
General remarks
Lead
Staunton's life (introduction)
Staunton's life: First steps in chess
Staunton's life: Matches against Saint-Amant
Staunton's life: Chess writer and promoter
Staunton's life: London International Tournament
Staunton's life: Later life
Playing strength and style
Personality
Influence on chess
Notable games
Tournament results
Match results
Wow, you're working your socks off! What's the French for that? Thanks for giving it so much care and attention. Philcha ( talk) 23:00, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
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Review by Brittle heaven: conclusion was "Oppose to A-class, support nomination for GA-class" |
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Comment I agree with SyG; without pre-judging the outcome of any review, the article is already impressive and his extensive comments will certainly help. And while there may be more material that could be included in the article, the present version seems to cover all of the important points very competently. Consequently, I will restrict my comments to just a few suggestions:-
Regards, Brittle heaven ( talk) 15:11, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Oppose 'A' Class I believe that the article in it's present form achieves 'GA' Class, but not 'A' Class. In it's scope, content and presentation it very much resembles the Alexander Alekhine article, which is also of 'GA' status. There are probably two distinct areas that I think currently hold it back from a more lofty classification; Staunton's strength. This may be controversial, but I'm really not happy with the way the article handles his chess playing stature; re-checking every competent source in my own library (Golombek, Sunnucks, Hooper & Whyld, Schonberg, Brace and Hartston) each and every one contends that Staunton was (or is generally regarded) the strongest player of his time. I have not read Keene and Coles' lengthy biography Howard Staunton:The English World Chess Champion, but from the title, I'm guessing it arrives at much the same conclusion. So why does this article undersell him as " … probably one of the world's two or three strongest players …" and " … the strongest British player with the possible exception of Buckle …"? Later, there is some (begrudging?) concession that some people hail Staunton as the strongest player, but are we really saying that the Spinrad article takes preference over all the other collected opinions? As much as I think that Spinrad's opinions are well researched and worthy of reproduction, they are still just opinions and I would personally reverse the emphasis in the lead (and elsewhere), giving what I believe to be the overwhelmingly popular view, much greater prominence.
Style. While some style issues can be tolerated within an 'A' Class article I feel that this one is too far away from a good style to be deemed satisfactory.
Finally, I hope that this doesn't seem too harsh. I still consider that the article is very good and well researched—a credit to the hard work that has gone into it. Brittle heaven ( talk) 23:02, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
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Review by Krakatoa: conclusion was "Oppose to A-class" |
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Comment A few remarks: the article claims that The Chess-Player's Handbook did not go out of print until 1993. That seems improbable. I have three copies of the book, which were printed in 1888, 1890, and 1893; one does not see versions for sale on eBay that were printed later than the 1890s, or maybe the 1900s. There might be a Hardinge Simpole version of the book or something many decades after that, but I would be surprised if the book were continuously in print until 1993.
Is the Internet user "batgirl" really an authoritative source?!
I earlier added Fischer's assessment of Staunton as being in the top 10 players of all time, and his explanation thereof, from the January-February 1964 issue of Chessworld magazine. I see from the above comments that Philcha deleted that, apparently considering batgirl a more authoritative source than Fischer, generally agreed to be one of the two strongest players in the history of the world. The mind boggles. Krakatoa ( talk) 09:49, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
The paragraph that I wrote about Fischer's assessment read as follows:
It seems to me that the manner in which Philcha deleted this paragraph was rather irregular, to say the least. The paragraph was last included in this version. Philcha deleted it (May 23, 2008 20:02), "explaining" in the revision history "(intro (almost done))". That is not enlightening, nor did Philcha put anything on the article's talk page about this omission. I am going to re-add this paragraph to the article. The Fischer article was published in 1964, by which time Fischer was already one of the strongest players of all time and a serious candidate for the world championship. Although Philcha does not think much of the article, it is significant enough to have been cited by Kasparov, for example. My Great Predecessors, Part IV, p. 87 (quoting Fischer's "splendid tribute" to Reshevsky in that article). Krakatoa ( talk) 10:51, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Staunton's combative writing Winter ( CN 4276: Rude and CN 4337: A chess Watergate) provides examples of acerbic comments by other writers of the time. Should I add a note about this to the comments about Staunton's chess writing style, e.g. "However his contemporaries could also be quite belligerent" (with these citations)? Philcha ( talk) 11:20, 27 June 2008 (UTC) Another of Winter's articles provides many examples of Attacks on Howard Staunton. Philcha ( talk) 23:58, 28 June 2008 (UTC) Influence on chess Krakatoa edited in the history of the Sicilian from Staunton's time to about 1900, which is fine. But after pointing out that the Sicilian almost vanished after the deaths of Staunton and Anderssen, the current version of the paragraph abruptly ends with "The Sicilian is today the most popular chess opening and the most successful response to 1.e4". Right now I can see 3 ways to deal with this:
Any suggestions? Philcha ( talk) 11:47, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Krakatoa has done a lot more than clarify the bit about the Sicilian. He has edited into the "Influence" section every attack on Staunton he could find. The placement of this content in the "Influence section evades the counter-balancing points made in the "Assessment" section, and is irrelevant to the question of Staunton's influence. No doubt Krakatoa will argue that sources are sources. OK, try Site review - Online book catalogs (III; Howard Staunton) by Mark Weeks. Philcha ( talk) 20:03, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Lead I don't understand the first sentence in the article: "Howard Staunton (April 1810 – June 22, 1874) was an English chess master who was probably one of the world's two strongest players from 1843 to 1851." Why "probably one of the world's two strongest?" Maybe I am missing something, but as far as I can see this doesn't tie into anything in the rest of the article. The article says, for example, that some people (mostly Englishmen) hailed S as world champion; other Europeans were less enthusiastic about that idea; even some Englishmen thought S wasn't the best, preferring someone else, notably Buckle or von der Lasa (note that if both Buckle and von der Lasa were better than S, than would make him No. 3); Chessmetrics ranks S No. 1 in the world 1843-49 (I'm leaving off the months) and in the top 10 from 1851 on (Chessmetrics apparently doesn't address 1849-51? This also wouldn't support saying "top 2 from 1843-51", seemingly.); and Elo said that except for Morphy (whose playing career began well after 1851) S scored best against other top players in 1846-62 (this would support "No. 1 in 1843-51", not "top 2"). Someone should either explain why this sentence is consistent with the rest of the article, or revise it. Krakatoa ( talk) 03:07, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Paul Morphy The article covers the Staunton-Morphy controversy in the most bland and Staunton-favorable manner imaginable. The text (including that accompanying the picture of Paul Morphy) is flagrantly POV. It also cites H.J.R. Murray as though he were the only person who had ever written on the subject, and treats what Murray says as the final (and only) word. Here is a timeline I have constructed from the Internet source "batgirl," who is cited (except on this subject!) throughout the article. (Everything on batgirl's website regarding Staunton and Morphy appears to be copied, without attribution, from print sources.) All dates are in 1858: June 23: Morphy, following his arrival in England, meets Staunton and inquires about match. Staunton agrees but asks for a month to brush up on his openings. Morphy agrees. Thereafter, Morphy and Barnes play two consultation games against Staunton and Owen at Staunton's country home, winning 2-0. [22] Early July – Staunton asks for more time, specifically until after the Birmingham tournament, which begins August 24. Morphy reluctantly agrees. Id. August 14 – Morphy sends Staunton a note asking to firm up match arrangements. Staunton says he needs still more time. [23] August 21 – Morphy again asks Staunton to set definite terms for the match, any terms he wants. Staunton leaves for Birmingham without replying. Id. Late August – Morphy goes to Birmingham, finds Staunton; Staunton immediately takes "the initiative, asking for more time, citing his urgent business and his publisher's pressure, etc. Morphy, exasperated, ask[s], 'Mr. Staunton, will you play in October, in November, or December? Chose your own time but let the decision be final.' Staunton replie[s], 'Well, Mr. Morphy, if you will consent to the postponement, I will play you the beginning of November. I will see my publishers and let you know the exact date in a few days.'" Id. August 28 – Staunton, using a tactic for which he has become infamous, publishes a letter in his own chess column, signed by "Anti-book" but undoubtedly written by Staunton himself, in which he falsely claims that (1) Morphy had failed to bring representatives to resolve the terms of the match; (2) Morphy did not have the necessary stakes for the match, and (3) Morphy had asked that the stakes be reduced from £1000 a side to £500 a side. Morphy does not respond to this calumny. [24] October 6 – Morphy, after winning his match with Harrwitz, writes to Staunton "expressing his dismay at the Anti-book letter, blankly declaring the availability of the stakes to any amount, and solving the question of seconds. He asked yet again for a fixed date, mentioning that a copy of the letter would go to several editors to clear any public misconceptions." Id. October 9 – Staunton replies, "reiterating all his same reasons for previous postponements, but now using them to bow out of the match altogether." Id. October 23 – "Staunton published his entire reply along with a partial rendition of Morphy's original letter (leaving out any reference to Anti-book). This [leads] to a series of exchanges of anonymous and acrimonious letters in different columns." Id. Morphy does not engage in any of this, but writes a letter to British Chess Association president Lord Lyttelton, "explaining his own efforts to bring about the match, Staunton's efforts to avoid the match with everything short of admitting he didn't wish to play, and of Staunton's twisting of the facts in the Illustrated London News, demanding 'that you shall declare to the world it is through no fault of mine that this match has not taken place.'" "Lord Lyttelton replied with a mild rebuke of Staunton's tactics and the assurance that no one blamed Morphy for the situation. The letters continued, Staunton's vituperations against Morphy continued, but the situation was basically settled in the public's mind since all but one British chess club, the Cambridge University Chess Club, denounced Staunton's actions in this matter." Id. To sum up: repeated agreement by Staunton that he would play the match, but four requests by Staunton for additional time to prepare (made June 23, early July, August 14, late August); the August 28 "Anti-book" letter published in Staunton's column making false and slanderous charges against Morphy; Staunton bowing out of the match on October 9; Staunton publishing an incomplete account of the facts on October 23; Staunton continuing his vituperations against Morphy; no such slanders by Morphy, whose actions are at all times completely gentlemanly, at any time; Staunton's actions are denounced by all British chess clubs, with only one exception. The article presents none of this, nor does it explain what, if anything, about the above account is wrong. Rather, it suggests that Morphy failed to comprehend that Staunton was declining his offer, that Staunton acted honorably but was unable to play the match because of his health and work (the batgirl account says nothing in this regard about Staunton's purported health problems), and that the worst thing Staunton did was not declining Morphy's offer more clearly. This appears to be a blatant whitewash, and a flagrant violation of WP:NPOV. Krakatoa ( talk) 08:13, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Conclusion I am on vacation right now, and thus would not normally be posting a comment at this time. However, SyG on my Talk page asked my current assessment of the article (A-class, GA-class, or something else) because he wanted to close the A-class review. The article is very well done in most respects, and in most respects I would have no problem supporting A class. However, regretfully I do not feel it warrants A class at this time because of its treatment of the Staunton-Morphy controversy. The section on that controversy is written in a strange way, starting out with a lengthy attack on Frederick Edge rather than discussing what Edge says. Edge (and later Lawson, who relies in part on Edge) set out a lengthy chronology of events (various letters, multiple requested postponements by Staunton to which Morphy assents, the infamous "anti-book" letter published in Staunton's column, and Staunton's final declination of the match), which is decidedly unflattering to Staunton. (I set out a brief chronology of those events above under "Paul Morphy".) The current section on the Staunton-Morphy controversy does not set out those events, but instead focuses on attacking Edge and closes out with Murray, a pro-Staunton commentator who glosses over a lot of relevant events, and treats him as the final word on the subject. I do not think this is a NPOV treatment, nor do I think it is written in an appealing style (the text of the article should focus on the facts as best they can be ascertained rather than on attacking Edge). Thus, at this time I regretfully oppose promoting this article to A class. I intend after I get back home and finish some outstanding personal matters to work on the Staunton-Morphy section. I hope to get that section in a state that I would consider NPOV and A-class-worthy (obviously, others may or may not agree). But if forced to vote today, I must vote against A class. My understanding is that GA class is not formally on the table at the moment, since that review has not started, but at this time I would also oppose GA class for the same reason. I say all of this regretfully, and with utmost respect for all of the work that people have put into the article. Krakatoa ( talk) 13:49, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
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Conclusion by SyG: A-class was not reached |
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All the conditions required to close this review are met:
All reviewers agree this is an outstanding article that Philcha has developed here. Also kudos to him to have stand the continuous flow of "constructive remarks" coming from the reviewers, myself in first place. Unfortunately the article still has issues to deal with:
Therefore, I shall close the review and declare the article is not judged up to the A-class for the moment. I wish to this article a good luck for its try into the GA-review. SyG ( talk) 21:29, 24 July 2008 (UTC) |
SyG ( talk) 20:41, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I was reading about rooks on the seventh rank in a game. The rook is on the seventh rank between two pawns. The defender moves one of the pawns off that rank, and the author uses the term "absolute seventh rank" twice. What does it mean? That the rook has a freer reign? That then it is able to get behind pawns? Other??? Bubba73 (talk), 02:38, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
The site http://www.liverating.org is being put in a few times, especially people with high "live" ratings such as Vassily Ivanchuk and Magnus Carlsen. I've been deleting them because liverating.org is not official, and because the edits are usually anonymous so I suspect spam; and because edits have been phrased in such a way to suggest liverating.org is official (e.g. this edit [27]). Am I being too harsh? Peter Ballard ( talk) 11:22, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
One thing that has frustrated me about many articles is that they refer to tournament categories (Category 20 etc) without defining them. To fix this I've created the Category (chess)
Category (chess tournament) page. So please consider creating a link like
Category 20 next time you come across an article mentioning a tournament category. Thanks!
Peter Ballard (
talk)
05:48, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Anyone want to re-rate Ponziani Opening? I've added a lead, and think it may merit B-class now. Krakatoa ( talk) 19:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
There is a bug in the chess position template.
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The above works, but in the caption, using "=" instead of ":" in the move gives:
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When I was using it in the article, the caption was "68" or something like that. I don't know anything about how to fix it. Can someone? Bubba73 (talk), 23:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Solutions:
I would favour the first method, as it is much simpler and can be used for any character. SyG ( talk) 18:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
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Thanks, that works. But then I realized that standard AN doesn't use "=" before the promoted piece. Back in my day, we used descriptive notation, and my use of "=" is a hangover from that. Nevertheless, there are some times when we need = in the caption. Bubba73 (talk), 22:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Is there a difference between fortress (chess) and a "positional draw"? At least two of my books talk about positional draws, but it is not clear how they are different, except one says that the term "positional draw" is borrowed from endgame study terminology. The article fortress (chess) has a section on positional draws. The first example there seems to be a simple fortress. The second one is more complex, with many more pieces. Bubba73 (talk), 15:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
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Anyone want to re-rate Chess handicap? I've added a lot of stuff to the text, and a genuine lead. I think it may merit B-class now. Krakatoa ( talk) 04:21, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
The sources (see in the article) stating that the Câmara Defense should be named as such appear weak to me for the moment. More reliable sources do not use this name:
So I am considering renaming the article to Gunderam defense. What do your reliable sources say ? SyG ( talk) 08:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
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Captions are not showing up in the small chess diagrams. I don't know how to fix it, does someone know? Bubba73 (talk), 14:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I have just tried changed the template, a bit randomly I must say. It seems to work now in your example, please tell me if you spot unwanted side-effects. SyG ( talk) 15:03, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) Left is better because if you do want to center it, you can use <center> ... </center> on the caption. Bubba73 (talk), 03:35, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
We need to improve rules of chess to bring it up to at least GA class. Presently we have few articles that are GA or better, and some of them I feel don't represent chess particularly well. In my opinion, The Turk (FA class), Bughouse Chess (A class), and Chess boxing (GA class) are not that important to chess. The chess article itself is FA, but I think that the second most important article is rules of chess, currently rated B class (although it may be better than that). I don't want to jump through all of the hoops to get it to GA or better myself, but I will help. What do you think? Bubba73 (talk), 05:55, 23 August 2008 (UTC)