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Could someone from the Project take a look at this? It is beyond my knowledge of chemistry. Looks good with the possible exception of the article name, not clear that the term "Early transition" applies, but otherwise looks good and referenced. Naraht ( talk) 15:49, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
Can someone with a bit more specialist knowledge than me check out this new article? It's a bit abstruse and weirdly organised and the fact that the page creator was reverted for vandalism shortly before publishing it makes me concerned about its quality. Reminds me of some of those articles created as a test of adding content to Wikipedia a while back. Blythwood ( talk) 22:26, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
This user Zakblade2000 ( talk · contribs) has been creating useless, IMHO, categories (e.g. Category:Isopropyl compounds, Category:Trichloromethyl compounds, Category:Gases with color) and then populating them. This user seems to have a history of doing chemical categorizations that are in IMHO not that helpful even if the categories themselves are somewhat useful. Anyways, I am not aware of any guidelines or policies on chemical categorization, but maybe we have something? Does anyone else think this user is doing more harm than good with these types of edits? Should anything be done? Yilloslime T C 20:45, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
The recent poisoning of a spy here in the UK is being linked to Russian Novichok chemical weapon agents. I don't know how big this is internationally but it's getting plenty of local coverage, as you would expect. Novichok agent has seen over 100 edits in the last 24 hrs by a range of characters - I would suggest that a temporary auto-confirm block might be an idea. Chemical weapons are unfortunately our area but with this being politically sensitive I'd be doubly careful about what sources we use.-- Project Osprey ( talk) 08:49, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
Facto Post – Issue 11 – 9 April 2018
![]() The 100 Skins of the OnionOpen Citations Month, with its eminently guessable hashtag, is upon us. We should be utterly grateful that in the past 12 months, so much data on which papers cite which other papers has been made open, and that Wikidata is playing its part in hosting it as "cites" statements. At the time of writing, there are 15.3M Wikidata items that can do that. Pulling back to look at open access papers in the large, though, there is is less reason for celebration. Access in theory does not yet equate to practical access. A recent LSE IMPACT blogpost puts that issue down to "heterogeneity". A useful euphemism to save us from thinking that the whole concept doesn't fall into the realm of the oxymoron. Some home truths: aggregation is not content management, if it falls short on reusability. The PDF file format is wedded to how humans read documents, not how machines ingest them. The salami-slicer is our friend in the current downloading of open access papers, but for a better metaphor, think about skinning an onion, laboriously, 100 times with diminishing returns. There are of the order of 100 major publisher sites hosting open access papers, and the predominant offer there is still a PDF. ![]() From the discoverability angle, Wikidata's bibliographic resources combined with the SPARQL query are superior in principle, by far, to existing keyword searches run over papers. Open access content should be managed into consistent HTML, something that is currently strenuous. The good news, such as it is, would be that much of it is already in XML. The organisational problem of removing further skins from the onion, with sensible prioritisation, is certainly not insuperable. The CORE group (the bloggers in the LSE posting) has some answers, but actually not all that is needed for the text and data mining purposes they highlight. The long tail, or in other words the onion heart when it has become fiddly beyond patience to skin, does call for a pis aller. But the real knack is to do more between the XML and the heart. Links
Editor Charles Matthews, for ContentMine. Please leave feedback for him. Back numbers are here. Reminder: WikiFactMine pages on Wikidata are at WD:WFM. If you wish to receive no further issues of Facto Post, please remove your name from
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MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 16:25, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
The articles Chemistry, Chemical element, and Periodic table have a periodic table on their page. However, each article uses a different file for their periodic table, Chemistry uses Periodic table (polyatomic).svg, Chemical element uses Periodic Table Chart.png, and Periodic table uses Simple Periodic Table Chart-en.svg. For consistency reasons, can you please edit each of the pages so that they include the same file for their periodic table? I do not care which file is used for each of the pages. 2601:183:101:58D0:E009:F9F6:98C8:AA7 ( talk) 22:17, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
User:Patchgood is adding a lot of artwork to articles on biochemically significant compounds. I don't like the artwork for the following reasons: the presentations require specialized knowledge to understand, the contributions may be promoting a commercial vendor, and the renderings are not great. But maybe I am too picky or am missing the message. Example below:
. -- Smokefoot ( talk) 02:23, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Patchgood ( talk) 14:51, 24 April 2018 (UTC) I appreciate the concern of the adding the images in Wikipedia, since it is very important struggle to high-level articles in general. As a medical student and after doing a professorship of Biochemistry since 1986, I have experienced a crescent devaluation of the molecular structure teaching of biochemistry. This can be shown by the great quantity of information and the natural attention to the understanding of metabolism, regulation, states of feeding-starvation made available by the current methods. It is clear that the memorization of such biomolecules is very tough, often leading to forgetfulness in the short term. I observed that the introduction of a graphical way to represent the biomolecules really help the understanding of the metabolic pathways in students, considering its related chemical changes and such, facilitating the retention of structure details even in the Fischer model, since it is very easy to interchange the codification between models. The cited publication on “Biochemistry and Molecular Biology Education” explains better these interchanging conditions, as well as the experience in using the polygonal model in several graduate students classes from different courses. There is absolutely no commercial interest in exploring this model since the knowledge was made freely available through its publication in the indexed journal of the area of education in biochemistry. I am collaborating with professionals who teach organic chemistry to high-school students and this experience is showing that this model is a very promising approach. I agree that it is a new knowledge, but it is already published and it’s undergoing continuous improvements in order to provide a better understanding of an area tough to be explored in classrooms. The quality of the artwork can be improved using other programs that allow sizing the image several times, but since this is not the present goal, we are using Python for drawing the molecules in a GNU/Linux environment. The resolution is good for the size it was applied to, and journals accept it for publications. As User:Biochemistry&Love suggested, we intend to submit a new entry as “polygonal model” in Wikipedia for explaining more details concerning the way to represent these molecules from Fischer projections, furnishing examples of materials for training, helping the reader to became more familiar to polygonal model, and for relating experiences with students using such approach. Anyway, all such information is present in the reference cited in the different articles which were included the molecule represented in the polygonal model. I would like to emphasize that all procedures are in accordance with the goals and terms of use of Wikipedia (see https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use/en). In such direction, we collected and developed educational content and either we publish it under a free license or dedicate it to the public domain, disseminating the content effectively and globally, free of charge. Moreover, it was respected all conditions listed in the Wikipedia rules, as the responsibility of our edits, civility, lawful behavior including no violation of copyright, and no harm of the technology infrastructure of Wikipedia. Finally, we follow all terms of use and policies of Wikipedia, and license freely our contributions, with no professional advice.
Hi all, I have started a discussion here on rewriting the examples of applications section in the MD article. It references mainly primary literature and I think it should be more general. Please let me know what you think. EvilxFish ( talk) 08:52, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
Is this article necessary? Natural materials-- MaoGo ( talk) 12:47, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
The wikitext parser is going to change in June, and any page with an error may display strangely. I'm going through Special:LintErrors, and I've found some high-priority errors in articles tagged by this WikiProject.
What's needed right now is for someone to click these links and compare the side-by-side preview of the two parsers. If the "New" page looks okay, then something's maybe technically wrong with the HTML, but there's no immediate worry. If that column looks wrong, then it should be fixed.
There is just one "deletable table" error for this project, in /info/en/?search=List_of_cocaine_analogues?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=81613296 If you want to know more about how to fix these pages, then see mw:Help:Extension:Linter/deletable-table-tag. When you click that link and scroll down to the wikitext, you'll see some highlighting that shows where the lint error is; it's in a nested table. It appears to have two starts to the table (maybe to add two different styling classes?). Removing either of those would probably solve the problem.
This longer list is "misnested tags". See
mw:Help:Extension:Linter/html5-misnesting for more information. The highlighting for the first link indicates that the problem for that article is related to a <span id=SIL>
tag. There is no closing tag (an error made repeatedly in this article), and that's presumably the source of the error.
url | more_info |
---|---|
/info/en/?search=Nonmetal?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=93042779 | {"name":"span","templateInfo":{"multiPartTemplateBlock":true}} much work required to fix non-standard referencing |
Note that the highlighting from the lintid code won't work reliably after the article has been edited, so for pages with multiple errors, it's best to try to fix them all at once. For more help, you can ask questions at Wikipedia talk:Linter. Good luck, Whatamidoing (WMF) ( talk) 18:31, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
<div class="nowrap">
, or ensuring everything inside such a block is all on one line. I removed the nowrap in the case of one. This is also the offender in the Ziryab article (and could be fixed in the infobox by the same or by fixing the line break in the article; I elect for the latter).We probably should seek some consensus on these overlapping articles. I would be glad to do this, shifting them to a greater reliance on secondary and tertiary references. I would put a merger banner on these articles after I hear from others.
One approach might be to have one article on NH that acknowledges the existence of NR and another article on nitrene insertion chemistry. But then, maybe just one master article.-- Smokefoot ( talk) 13:50, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
I have made it so:
articles that you have been involved in editing— Nitrogen monohydride and Imidogen—have been proposed for merging with another article. If you are interested, please participate in the merger discussion. Thank you. -- Dirk Beetstra T C 06:53, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
I'm looking at the two structure diagrams in Ornithine:
It took me a while to get oriented because they're backwards with respect to each other. One has the c-terminal end on the left, the other has it on the right. They may structurally equivalent, but it seems like it would be better to present them both in the same orientation, so it's easier to see what corresponds to what. Is there any kind of standard, either in the real world, or in WP style, that talks about this? -- RoySmith (talk) 13:42, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
I just proposed the article fine electronic structure for deletion Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fine electronic structure. I tried to rescue the article before as I thought I could learn a little about spin-orbit and other corrections to the band structure of solids. The doubt about the subject is if it is related to the specific details of general matter (atoms, molecules, solids) or just solids. Maybe an expert here could give an insight. Also look at the article as it was before: [1] -- MaoGo ( talk) 09:05, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
Facto Post – Issue 12 – 28 May 2018
![]() ScienceSource fundedThe Wikimedia Foundation announced full funding of the ScienceSource grant proposal from ContentMine on May 18. See the ScienceSource Twitter announcement and 60 second video.
The proposal includes downloading 30,000 open access papers, aiming (roughly speaking) to create a baseline for medical referencing on Wikipedia. It leaves open the question of how these are to be chosen. The basic criteria of WP:MEDRS include a concentration on secondary literature. Attention has to be given to the long tail of diseases that receive less current research. The MEDRS guideline supposes that edge cases will have to be handled, and the premature exclusion of publications that would be in those marginal positions would reduce the value of the collection. Prophylaxis misses the point that gate-keeping will be done by an algorithm. Two well-known but rather different areas where such considerations apply are tropical diseases and alternative medicine. There are also a number of potential downloading troubles, and these were mentioned in Issue 11. There is likely to be a gap, even with the guideline, between conditions taken to be necessary but not sufficient, and conditions sufficient but not necessary, for candidate papers to be included. With around 10,000 recognised medical conditions in standard lists, being comprehensive is demanding. With all of these aspects of the task, ScienceSource will seek community help. Links![]()
Editor Charles Matthews, for ContentMine. Please leave feedback for him. Back numbers are here. Reminder: WikiFactMine pages on Wikidata are at WD:WFM. ScienceSource pages will be announced there, and in this mass message. If you wish to receive no further issues of Facto Post, please remove your name from
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MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 10:16, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
The reason I am contacting you is because there are one or more portals that fall under this subject, and the Portals WikiProject is currently undertaking a major drive to automate portals that may affect them.
Portals are being redesigned.
The new design features are being applied to existing portals.
At present, we are gearing up for a maintenance pass of portals in which the introduction section will be upgraded to no longer need a subpage. In place of static copied and pasted excerpts will be self-updating excerpts displayed through selective transclusion, using the template {{ Transclude lead excerpt}}.
The discussion about this can be found here.
Maintainers of specific portals are encouraged to sign up as project members here, noting the portals they maintain, so that those portals are skipped by the maintenance pass. Currently, we are interested in upgrading neglected and abandoned portals. There will be opportunity for maintained portals to opt-in later, or the portal maintainers can handle upgrading (the portals they maintain) personally at any time.
On April 8th, 2018, an RfC ("Request for comment") proposal was made to eliminate all portals and the portal namespace. On April 17th, the Portals WikiProject was rebooted to handle the revitalization of the portal system. On May 12th, the RfC was closed with the result to keep portals, by a margin of about 2 to 1 in favor of keeping portals.
Since the reboot, the Portals WikiProject has been busy building tools and components to upgrade portals.
So far, 84 editors have joined.
If you would like to keep abreast of what is happening with portals, see the newsletter archive.
If you have any questions about what is happening with portals or the Portals WikiProject, please post them on the WikiProject's talk page.
Thank you. — The Transhumanist 07:28, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
Per title, that PhD thesis is a primary source but per that paragraph,
Completed dissertations or theses written as part of the requirements for a doctorate, and which are publicly available (most via interlibrary loan or from Proquest), can be used but care should be exercised, as they are often, in part, primary sources. Some of them will have gone through a process of academic peer reviewing, of varying levels of rigor, but some will not. If possible, use theses that have been cited in the literature; supervised by recognized specialists in the field; or reviewed by third parties. Dissertations in progress have not been vetted and are not regarded as published and are thus not reliable sources as a rule. Some theses are later published in the form of scholarly monographs or peer reviewed articles, and, if available, these are usually preferable to the original thesis as sources.
Shall I still use that thesis as a source? It is a good source because it shows explicitly the structure and its archaic (to this day) name on the same page. Outside of wikipedia, the PhD thesis is accessible electronically. -- Ktsquare (talk) 07:03, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
Could someone have a look at Draft:Naphthalene-1,5-dione? Is that the same compound as 1,5-dioxynaphthalene? Should it have its own article, or be merged somewhere else? – Uanfala (talk) 18:26, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
Over at Propene#Combustion, there's this little equation:
I assume that the labels "propene", "oxygen", and "carbon dioxide" are meant to go under the bracket/underbrace, like they do for "water", rather than to the side of the molecules as they appear above. Anyone know how to fix this? I've been staring at the <chem> code for a while now and can't figure it out. I don't think is browser issue, as it appears the same way in various browsers and computers that I have tried. Yilloslime ( talk) 19:52, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
I have never settled on the meaning of poly, as in polyamine. Is ethylenediamine a polyamine? My inclination is that it is not. -- Smokefoot ( talk) 21:06, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Just made a stub for this compound. If someone were willing to add the "chembox" infobox to the article I'd be very appreciative. - Darouet ( talk) 20:22, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
Over on WP:WPM we been working on identifying draft which come under our project and reviewing them at Wikipedia:WikiProject Mathematics/List of math draft pages. Part of this process involved finding draft which had mathematical of chemical equations in them. Quite a few of them come under your project and we have listed them at Wikipedia:List of draft pages on science and engineering. You may wish to examine these and see if any should be promoted to main space. -- Salix alba ( talk): 07:41, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Probably of interest to participants here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Naphthalene-1,5-dione. XOR'easter ( talk) 23:33, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Hello there, while looking at the Cannizzaro reaction, can the aldehyde be replaced by an aldimine? Then the aldimine undergoes the reaction to yield an amine and an amide. Where can I look for information about that? At the moment, it seems original research. Secondly, on isobutyraldehyde, "it undergoes the Cannizaro reaction even though it has alpha hydrogen atom.", unsourced. On TishchenkoReaction, "the Tishchenko reaction is used to obtain isobutyl isobutyrate, a specialty solvent, sourced. So, does the isobutyraldehyde undergoes a Cannizzaro reaction to yield both the alcohol (isobutyl) and the carboxylate (isobutyrate)? Where can I look for information about that? Consequently, is or was there a collaboration on Organic Chemistry, say a Wikiproject? -- Mountainninja ( talk) 01:50, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
There is now a project to migrate away from the texvc renderer for <math>
expressions.
This was the default a few years ago which produces PNG images, now we have a hybrid solution with uses MathJax in the backend to produce svg images and sometimes xml. There is still some legacy from texvc as it is used in the frist parsing step of the current engine. This means there are some idiosyncrasies in the syntax which differ from standard LaTex:
Current syntax | Suggested replacement | Comment |
---|---|---|
$ | \$ | redefinition would involve changing the character code |
% | \% | redefinition would involve changing the character code |
\and | \land | causes normal align environment to fail |
\or | \lor | see [3]; causes teubner to fail |
\part | \partial | acceptable if the document doesn't use sectioning with \part. |
\ang | \angle | this only conflicts with siunitx package. |
\C | \Complex | conflicts with puenc.def e.g. from hyperref package |
\H | \mathbb{H} | conflicts with text command \H{0} which is ő. |
\bold | \mathbf | |
\Bbb | \mathbb | |
\pagecolor | remove | not needed and not working anymore, done on en-wiki mainspace |
<ce>...</ce> |
<chem>...</chem> |
Chemistry environment, done on en-wiki mainspace |
The first step in the project will involve deprecating the old syntax and running a bot or semi-automated edits to change the syntax. These should not result in any visible change to the pages. The bot doing the work is User:Texvc2LaTeXBot which is currently seeking approval. Changes will also be made to the Visual Editor to produce the new syntax.
Subsequent stages in the project are discussed at
mw:Extension:Math/Roadmap, these involve some more complex problems with the <chem>
syntax. Eventually the texvc part will be removed completely and there may be some slight change to the rendered output. The main discussion of the project happens at
T195861 and your input is welcome.
Discussion on the English wikipedia should be on
WT:WPM--
Salix alba (
talk):
15:58, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
as to Draft:Amphetamine synthesis.Feel free to accept at your discretion, shall this be encyclopedic-ally notable enough :) ∯WBG converse 04:56, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
Facto Post – Issue 13 – 29 May 2018
![]() The Editor is
Charles Matthews, for
ContentMine. Please leave feedback for him, on his User talk page.
To subscribe to Facto Post go to
Wikipedia:Facto Post mailing list. For the ways to unsubscribe, see the footer.
Facto Post enters its second year, with a Cambridge Blue (OK, Aquamarine) background, a new logo, but no Cambridge blues. On-topic for the ScienceSource project is a project page here. It contains some case studies on how the WP:MEDRS guideline, for the referencing of articles at all related to human health, is applied in typical discussions. Close to home also, a template, called {{ medrs}} for short, is used to express dissatisfaction with particular references. Technology can help with patrolling, and this Petscan query finds over 450 articles where there is at least one use of the template. Of course the template is merely suggesting there is a possible issue with the reliability of a reference. Deciding the truth of the allegation is another matter. This maintenance issue is one example of where ScienceSource aims to help. Where the reference is to a scientific paper, its type of algorithm could give a pass/fail opinion on such references. It could assist patrollers of medical articles, therefore, with the templated references and more generally. There may be more to proper referencing than that, indeed: context, quite what the statement supported by the reference expresses, prominence and weight. For that kind of consideration, case studies can help. But an algorithm might help to clear the backlog. ![]()
If you wish to receive no further issues of Facto Post, please remove your name from
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MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 18:19, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
The Fundamental resolution equation article is in need of love and is on the same equation as the Purnell equation article. I hate tedious algebra ( talk) 04:03, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Empirically, an acid can be said to be completely dissociated in solution when the concentration of molecules, HA, is below the detection limit for the species. There appear to be two, mutually incompatible, ways of quantifying what a strong acid is. See acid strength and acid dissociation constant for details.
The first is the number -log10 55.5. 55.5 is the concentration/1M of H2O pure water. This seems to be the criterion commonly used for designating a compound as a superacid.
The second depends on the buffer capacity of the solvent, which rises very steeply with decreasing pH, starting at about pH 1 in aqueous solutions. This is independent of the pK value of the acid and is the cause of the solvent levelling effect.
What, if anything, should be done in WP about this contradictory state of affairs? Petergans ( talk) 09:35, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Is there a chemistry-based definition of a metal? I suspect not. If there was one I presume there would be no argh-bargy about where to draw the line of demarcation between metals and non metals, at least within the discipline of chemistry. Sandbh ( talk) 07:57, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
Thank you.
I was interested in definitions based on chemical properties instead of physical properties such as shininess or conductivity. For example, simple cation formation or having at least one basic oxide. The challenge is that there are some metals like tantalum or tungsten that meet neither of these criteria. Just what is it, from a chemist's point of view, that warrants classifying Ta and W as metals?
There is not much of a gradient, as I understand it, in distinguishing between metals and nonmetals. The consensus of the literature classifies B, Si, Ge, As, Sb, and Te as metalloids. And Wikipedia classifies At as a metalloid, on the basis of its apparent properties, noting it has been predicted to have a fully metallic band structure. So, apart from H, elements to the left of the metalloids in the periodic table are metals.
The context for my question is a desire to improve our
metal article. It seems odd that there does not seem to be an inclusive definition of a metal based purely on chemical properties.
Sandbh (
talk)
10:38, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
That would be awkward since H is capable of forming alloy-like hydrides, featuring metallic bonding, with some transition metals. I'm not pretending this is an easy question—I don't yet see how to do it without including at least one physical property like conductivity. Sandbh ( talk) 13:03, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
The proposed definition of a metal applies at SATP. It does not matter if, at temperatures lower or higher than 25 °C, the metal in question becomes a semimetal, semiconductor, or an insulator. AFAIK there is no simple Sb3+ cation. The closest I have seen in the literature is [Sb(H2O)4(OH)2+. The compound Sb8(GaCl4)2, which contains the homopolycation, Sb82+, was also prepared in 2004. The status of Sb "salts" was strongly criticised by Axiosaurus on the metalloid talk page. Evidence for the existence of a simple Sb cation, or a genuine Sb salt, appears to be lacking. Sandbh ( talk) 12:40, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Double sharp: @ Droog Andrey: thank you Double sharp for those sources.
I now think too much significance is being attached to aqueous cation formation for As?, Sb, and Bi (and Ge). The species concerned seem to found only in highly acidic media, perhaps requiring negative pH in the case of Sb. I tend to be reminded of the claim that Hg was a transition metal based on the purported existence of Hg(IV) even though, as Jensen noted, the experimental conditions were quite extreme. In a similar vein, I'd regard the presence of Ge?, As?, Sb, and Bi aqueous cations as being too marginal to warrant classifying any of these elements as metals.
The original proposed definition stands up reasonably well i.e. "In the periodic table, any element which (a) features a structure characterised by "metallic" bonding; or (b) has a basic oxide, is classified as a metal." While Bi comprises covalently bonded atoms stacked in layers, its basic oxide is the starting point for most Bi chemisty. Sandbh ( talk) 10:41, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Anyway, I think the case of Sb(H2O)83+ is rather different from that of HgIV. The latter, if it exists at all, only appears in one compound at extreme conditions and does not illuminate anything else about Hg chemistry, which is resolutely that of a post-transition metal; so it is not terribly important for classification, unlike what is expected for Cn. But Sb3+ can be considered the starting point of hydrolysis that leads to Sb(H2O)4(OH)2+ and thence to Sb(OH)3; given that Sb has the ability to form "salts" formally involving a simple Sb3+ cation, like Bi, Po, and At but unlike As, Se, and Te (which only form basic salts), thinking of this cation as a starting point does seem to help understanding Sb chemistry even if it itself only appears at extreme conditions. I would say much the same of the cations Tl3+, Sn2+, Pb2+, Ce4+, Zr4+, and Hf4+. On the other hand, since As2O3 is a predominantly acidic oxide, and AsIII appears to quickly hydrolyse all the way to As(OH)3 (arsenious acid) in water, I would agree that thinking of As3+ is unhelpful.
When it comes down to it, all metals have a nonmetallic side (even caesium forms alkalides) and all nonmetals have a metallic side (even helium has a few similarities to beryllium), and especially around the metalloid line a binary distinction is difficult to maintain. We are not saying that antimony is wholly metallic or wholly nonmetallic; both statements are nonsense. To the extent that the question "is Sb a metal or not" makes sense, it must be asked in terms of which one gives a better first-order understanding of what one might expect of its physical and chemical properties. Since +3 is antimony's predominant oxidation state, in which Sb forms a cation and has an amphoteric oxide, I think it is less misleading to call it a metal with caveats than a nonmetal with caveats. The approach of looking at the most stable oxidation state in the p-block incidentally calls B, Si, Ge, As, and Te nonmetals, Sb a metal, and is agnostic on At given that At3+ has not yet been found AFAIK (although At+ and AtO+ being known suggests to me that it is a possibility). (Ge ends up on the nonmetal side because it forms a cation and has an amphoteric oxide in its unstable +2 oxidation state, and does neither in its stable +4 state.) Double sharp ( talk) 06:04, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Double sharp: Earlier you wrote, "Is Bi2O3 really completely basic, though? It's definitely more basic than Sb2O3, but Bi2O3 will dissolve in warm and very concentrated KOH." In his Treatise on Inorganic Chemistry (1956 p. 677), Remy wrote, "The insolubility of bismuth oxide in dilute alkalis, as compared with the amphoteric oxides of arsenic and antimony, marks it out as being definitely a basic oxide." That seems to be the explanation then for regarding bismuth oxide as being basic. So, at this stage, the original proposed definition based on having "metallic" bonding or having a basic oxide appears to still hold. Sandbh ( talk) 06:01, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
I would say that there isn't really any chemical properties that define metals. They do tend to have lower electronegativity than nonmetals, but there are exceptions. As far as I'm aware, in the context of chemistry, a metal is a element that in its pure form, under standard conditions, is considered metal ( elements that are considered metalloids are sometimes also included), based on its physical characteristics. Or alternatively to the electrical properties of a substance. OrganoMetallurgy ( talk) 18:53, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Here's an update of the suggested definition of a metal, based on chemical properties:
Any element which… * forms a simple cation in aqueous solution; or * has a basic oxide; or * uses d or f electrons in chemical bonding… merits being classified as a metal.
Sandbh ( talk) 10:25, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Double sharp: The challenge is how to cater for metals that don't form simple cations namely Zr, Hf; Nb, Ta; W; Tc; and Os. The first four of these form interstitial (metallic) hydrides. The only suitable chemical property I can see for W, Tc and Os is their capacity to exist in more than eight integral oxidation states. So that would give:
Any element which… * forms a simple cation in aqueous solution; or * has a basic oxide; or * forms an interstitial hydride; or * can exist in more than eight integral oxidation states… merits being classified as a metal.
The capacity to form an interstitial hydride, as I understand it, is partly related to the existence of a metallic lattice, so I'm OK with that criterion.
The capacity to exist in more than eight integral oxidation states is less satisfactory because it isn't immediately clear why it's associated with metallicity. Still, it's an improvement on the former definition. Thoughts? Sandbh ( talk) 01:27, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
One approach (which I think should be almost mandatory for most articles), is to build the lede on major ( WP:TERTIARY) sources (not the damn OED). What are the "bibles" on metals? Get them and rely on them. As it stands, readers are force-fed these lame sources at the first five references:
-- Smokefoot ( talk) 13:50, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
Facto Post – Issue 14 – 21 July 2018
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Officially it is "bridging the gaps in knowledge", with Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town paying tribute to the southern African concept of ubuntu to implement it. Besides face-to-face interactions, Wikimedians do need their power sources. ![]() Facto Post interviewed Jdforrester, who has attended every Wikimania, and now works as Senior Product Manager for the Wikimedia Foundation. His take on tackling the gaps in the Wikimedia movement is that "if we were an army, we could march in a column and close up all the gaps". In his view though, that is a faulty metaphor, and it leads to a completely false misunderstanding of the movement, its diversity and different aspirations, and the nature of the work as "fighting" to be done in the open sector. There are many fronts, and as an eventualist he feels the gaps experienced both by editors and by users of Wikimedia content are inevitable. He would like to see a greater emphasis on reuse of content, not simply its volume. If that may not sound like radicalism, the Decolonizing the Internet conference here organized jointly with Whose Knowledge? can redress the picture. It comes with the claim to be "the first ever conference about centering marginalized knowledge online". ![]()
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MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 06:10, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
Just because the portal has been abandoned does not mean that the portal is useless. There is valuable information on the portal, especially if a person is interested in the quickly seeing the vocabulary for a field and not just reading an encyclopedia article. Unless the plan is to remove the PORTAL parameter from all of the WikiProject templates, it should be put back. Leave it to the reader to judge the usefulness of the information on the portal page. Use case example: a person is learning a foreign language and needs to learn the most important words in Chemistry. The Chemistry portal page will give them that information where the Chemistry article will not.
Portals are setup to do rotations of articles automatically. As long as the choice of articles is contained in the Top or High category, if code is written to randomly choose an article from one of those two categories by just grabbing the introduction automatically (TextExtracts), it does not need to be maintained in order for it to work. Zzmonty ( talk) 07:55, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
I just started Nanodumbbell and have no idea what I'm doing. Please visit the article and see if the "Effect of Surfactant on Growth of ZnO Nanodumbbells..." external link is the right thing. Are these things silica or zinc or what? Many thanks! :) Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 23:22, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 40 | ← | Archive 43 | Archive 44 | Archive 45 | Archive 46 | Archive 47 | → | Archive 50 |
Could someone from the Project take a look at this? It is beyond my knowledge of chemistry. Looks good with the possible exception of the article name, not clear that the term "Early transition" applies, but otherwise looks good and referenced. Naraht ( talk) 15:49, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
Can someone with a bit more specialist knowledge than me check out this new article? It's a bit abstruse and weirdly organised and the fact that the page creator was reverted for vandalism shortly before publishing it makes me concerned about its quality. Reminds me of some of those articles created as a test of adding content to Wikipedia a while back. Blythwood ( talk) 22:26, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
This user Zakblade2000 ( talk · contribs) has been creating useless, IMHO, categories (e.g. Category:Isopropyl compounds, Category:Trichloromethyl compounds, Category:Gases with color) and then populating them. This user seems to have a history of doing chemical categorizations that are in IMHO not that helpful even if the categories themselves are somewhat useful. Anyways, I am not aware of any guidelines or policies on chemical categorization, but maybe we have something? Does anyone else think this user is doing more harm than good with these types of edits? Should anything be done? Yilloslime T C 20:45, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
The recent poisoning of a spy here in the UK is being linked to Russian Novichok chemical weapon agents. I don't know how big this is internationally but it's getting plenty of local coverage, as you would expect. Novichok agent has seen over 100 edits in the last 24 hrs by a range of characters - I would suggest that a temporary auto-confirm block might be an idea. Chemical weapons are unfortunately our area but with this being politically sensitive I'd be doubly careful about what sources we use.-- Project Osprey ( talk) 08:49, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
Facto Post – Issue 11 – 9 April 2018
![]() The 100 Skins of the OnionOpen Citations Month, with its eminently guessable hashtag, is upon us. We should be utterly grateful that in the past 12 months, so much data on which papers cite which other papers has been made open, and that Wikidata is playing its part in hosting it as "cites" statements. At the time of writing, there are 15.3M Wikidata items that can do that. Pulling back to look at open access papers in the large, though, there is is less reason for celebration. Access in theory does not yet equate to practical access. A recent LSE IMPACT blogpost puts that issue down to "heterogeneity". A useful euphemism to save us from thinking that the whole concept doesn't fall into the realm of the oxymoron. Some home truths: aggregation is not content management, if it falls short on reusability. The PDF file format is wedded to how humans read documents, not how machines ingest them. The salami-slicer is our friend in the current downloading of open access papers, but for a better metaphor, think about skinning an onion, laboriously, 100 times with diminishing returns. There are of the order of 100 major publisher sites hosting open access papers, and the predominant offer there is still a PDF. ![]() From the discoverability angle, Wikidata's bibliographic resources combined with the SPARQL query are superior in principle, by far, to existing keyword searches run over papers. Open access content should be managed into consistent HTML, something that is currently strenuous. The good news, such as it is, would be that much of it is already in XML. The organisational problem of removing further skins from the onion, with sensible prioritisation, is certainly not insuperable. The CORE group (the bloggers in the LSE posting) has some answers, but actually not all that is needed for the text and data mining purposes they highlight. The long tail, or in other words the onion heart when it has become fiddly beyond patience to skin, does call for a pis aller. But the real knack is to do more between the XML and the heart. Links
Editor Charles Matthews, for ContentMine. Please leave feedback for him. Back numbers are here. Reminder: WikiFactMine pages on Wikidata are at WD:WFM. If you wish to receive no further issues of Facto Post, please remove your name from
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MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 16:25, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
The articles Chemistry, Chemical element, and Periodic table have a periodic table on their page. However, each article uses a different file for their periodic table, Chemistry uses Periodic table (polyatomic).svg, Chemical element uses Periodic Table Chart.png, and Periodic table uses Simple Periodic Table Chart-en.svg. For consistency reasons, can you please edit each of the pages so that they include the same file for their periodic table? I do not care which file is used for each of the pages. 2601:183:101:58D0:E009:F9F6:98C8:AA7 ( talk) 22:17, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
User:Patchgood is adding a lot of artwork to articles on biochemically significant compounds. I don't like the artwork for the following reasons: the presentations require specialized knowledge to understand, the contributions may be promoting a commercial vendor, and the renderings are not great. But maybe I am too picky or am missing the message. Example below:
. -- Smokefoot ( talk) 02:23, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Patchgood ( talk) 14:51, 24 April 2018 (UTC) I appreciate the concern of the adding the images in Wikipedia, since it is very important struggle to high-level articles in general. As a medical student and after doing a professorship of Biochemistry since 1986, I have experienced a crescent devaluation of the molecular structure teaching of biochemistry. This can be shown by the great quantity of information and the natural attention to the understanding of metabolism, regulation, states of feeding-starvation made available by the current methods. It is clear that the memorization of such biomolecules is very tough, often leading to forgetfulness in the short term. I observed that the introduction of a graphical way to represent the biomolecules really help the understanding of the metabolic pathways in students, considering its related chemical changes and such, facilitating the retention of structure details even in the Fischer model, since it is very easy to interchange the codification between models. The cited publication on “Biochemistry and Molecular Biology Education” explains better these interchanging conditions, as well as the experience in using the polygonal model in several graduate students classes from different courses. There is absolutely no commercial interest in exploring this model since the knowledge was made freely available through its publication in the indexed journal of the area of education in biochemistry. I am collaborating with professionals who teach organic chemistry to high-school students and this experience is showing that this model is a very promising approach. I agree that it is a new knowledge, but it is already published and it’s undergoing continuous improvements in order to provide a better understanding of an area tough to be explored in classrooms. The quality of the artwork can be improved using other programs that allow sizing the image several times, but since this is not the present goal, we are using Python for drawing the molecules in a GNU/Linux environment. The resolution is good for the size it was applied to, and journals accept it for publications. As User:Biochemistry&Love suggested, we intend to submit a new entry as “polygonal model” in Wikipedia for explaining more details concerning the way to represent these molecules from Fischer projections, furnishing examples of materials for training, helping the reader to became more familiar to polygonal model, and for relating experiences with students using such approach. Anyway, all such information is present in the reference cited in the different articles which were included the molecule represented in the polygonal model. I would like to emphasize that all procedures are in accordance with the goals and terms of use of Wikipedia (see https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use/en). In such direction, we collected and developed educational content and either we publish it under a free license or dedicate it to the public domain, disseminating the content effectively and globally, free of charge. Moreover, it was respected all conditions listed in the Wikipedia rules, as the responsibility of our edits, civility, lawful behavior including no violation of copyright, and no harm of the technology infrastructure of Wikipedia. Finally, we follow all terms of use and policies of Wikipedia, and license freely our contributions, with no professional advice.
Hi all, I have started a discussion here on rewriting the examples of applications section in the MD article. It references mainly primary literature and I think it should be more general. Please let me know what you think. EvilxFish ( talk) 08:52, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
Is this article necessary? Natural materials-- MaoGo ( talk) 12:47, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
The wikitext parser is going to change in June, and any page with an error may display strangely. I'm going through Special:LintErrors, and I've found some high-priority errors in articles tagged by this WikiProject.
What's needed right now is for someone to click these links and compare the side-by-side preview of the two parsers. If the "New" page looks okay, then something's maybe technically wrong with the HTML, but there's no immediate worry. If that column looks wrong, then it should be fixed.
There is just one "deletable table" error for this project, in /info/en/?search=List_of_cocaine_analogues?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=81613296 If you want to know more about how to fix these pages, then see mw:Help:Extension:Linter/deletable-table-tag. When you click that link and scroll down to the wikitext, you'll see some highlighting that shows where the lint error is; it's in a nested table. It appears to have two starts to the table (maybe to add two different styling classes?). Removing either of those would probably solve the problem.
This longer list is "misnested tags". See
mw:Help:Extension:Linter/html5-misnesting for more information. The highlighting for the first link indicates that the problem for that article is related to a <span id=SIL>
tag. There is no closing tag (an error made repeatedly in this article), and that's presumably the source of the error.
url | more_info |
---|---|
/info/en/?search=Nonmetal?action=parsermigration-edit&lintid=93042779 | {"name":"span","templateInfo":{"multiPartTemplateBlock":true}} much work required to fix non-standard referencing |
Note that the highlighting from the lintid code won't work reliably after the article has been edited, so for pages with multiple errors, it's best to try to fix them all at once. For more help, you can ask questions at Wikipedia talk:Linter. Good luck, Whatamidoing (WMF) ( talk) 18:31, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
<div class="nowrap">
, or ensuring everything inside such a block is all on one line. I removed the nowrap in the case of one. This is also the offender in the Ziryab article (and could be fixed in the infobox by the same or by fixing the line break in the article; I elect for the latter).We probably should seek some consensus on these overlapping articles. I would be glad to do this, shifting them to a greater reliance on secondary and tertiary references. I would put a merger banner on these articles after I hear from others.
One approach might be to have one article on NH that acknowledges the existence of NR and another article on nitrene insertion chemistry. But then, maybe just one master article.-- Smokefoot ( talk) 13:50, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
I have made it so:
articles that you have been involved in editing— Nitrogen monohydride and Imidogen—have been proposed for merging with another article. If you are interested, please participate in the merger discussion. Thank you. -- Dirk Beetstra T C 06:53, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
I'm looking at the two structure diagrams in Ornithine:
It took me a while to get oriented because they're backwards with respect to each other. One has the c-terminal end on the left, the other has it on the right. They may structurally equivalent, but it seems like it would be better to present them both in the same orientation, so it's easier to see what corresponds to what. Is there any kind of standard, either in the real world, or in WP style, that talks about this? -- RoySmith (talk) 13:42, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
I just proposed the article fine electronic structure for deletion Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fine electronic structure. I tried to rescue the article before as I thought I could learn a little about spin-orbit and other corrections to the band structure of solids. The doubt about the subject is if it is related to the specific details of general matter (atoms, molecules, solids) or just solids. Maybe an expert here could give an insight. Also look at the article as it was before: [1] -- MaoGo ( talk) 09:05, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
Facto Post – Issue 12 – 28 May 2018
![]() ScienceSource fundedThe Wikimedia Foundation announced full funding of the ScienceSource grant proposal from ContentMine on May 18. See the ScienceSource Twitter announcement and 60 second video.
The proposal includes downloading 30,000 open access papers, aiming (roughly speaking) to create a baseline for medical referencing on Wikipedia. It leaves open the question of how these are to be chosen. The basic criteria of WP:MEDRS include a concentration on secondary literature. Attention has to be given to the long tail of diseases that receive less current research. The MEDRS guideline supposes that edge cases will have to be handled, and the premature exclusion of publications that would be in those marginal positions would reduce the value of the collection. Prophylaxis misses the point that gate-keeping will be done by an algorithm. Two well-known but rather different areas where such considerations apply are tropical diseases and alternative medicine. There are also a number of potential downloading troubles, and these were mentioned in Issue 11. There is likely to be a gap, even with the guideline, between conditions taken to be necessary but not sufficient, and conditions sufficient but not necessary, for candidate papers to be included. With around 10,000 recognised medical conditions in standard lists, being comprehensive is demanding. With all of these aspects of the task, ScienceSource will seek community help. Links![]()
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MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 10:16, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
The reason I am contacting you is because there are one or more portals that fall under this subject, and the Portals WikiProject is currently undertaking a major drive to automate portals that may affect them.
Portals are being redesigned.
The new design features are being applied to existing portals.
At present, we are gearing up for a maintenance pass of portals in which the introduction section will be upgraded to no longer need a subpage. In place of static copied and pasted excerpts will be self-updating excerpts displayed through selective transclusion, using the template {{ Transclude lead excerpt}}.
The discussion about this can be found here.
Maintainers of specific portals are encouraged to sign up as project members here, noting the portals they maintain, so that those portals are skipped by the maintenance pass. Currently, we are interested in upgrading neglected and abandoned portals. There will be opportunity for maintained portals to opt-in later, or the portal maintainers can handle upgrading (the portals they maintain) personally at any time.
On April 8th, 2018, an RfC ("Request for comment") proposal was made to eliminate all portals and the portal namespace. On April 17th, the Portals WikiProject was rebooted to handle the revitalization of the portal system. On May 12th, the RfC was closed with the result to keep portals, by a margin of about 2 to 1 in favor of keeping portals.
Since the reboot, the Portals WikiProject has been busy building tools and components to upgrade portals.
So far, 84 editors have joined.
If you would like to keep abreast of what is happening with portals, see the newsletter archive.
If you have any questions about what is happening with portals or the Portals WikiProject, please post them on the WikiProject's talk page.
Thank you. — The Transhumanist 07:28, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
Per title, that PhD thesis is a primary source but per that paragraph,
Completed dissertations or theses written as part of the requirements for a doctorate, and which are publicly available (most via interlibrary loan or from Proquest), can be used but care should be exercised, as they are often, in part, primary sources. Some of them will have gone through a process of academic peer reviewing, of varying levels of rigor, but some will not. If possible, use theses that have been cited in the literature; supervised by recognized specialists in the field; or reviewed by third parties. Dissertations in progress have not been vetted and are not regarded as published and are thus not reliable sources as a rule. Some theses are later published in the form of scholarly monographs or peer reviewed articles, and, if available, these are usually preferable to the original thesis as sources.
Shall I still use that thesis as a source? It is a good source because it shows explicitly the structure and its archaic (to this day) name on the same page. Outside of wikipedia, the PhD thesis is accessible electronically. -- Ktsquare (talk) 07:03, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
Could someone have a look at Draft:Naphthalene-1,5-dione? Is that the same compound as 1,5-dioxynaphthalene? Should it have its own article, or be merged somewhere else? – Uanfala (talk) 18:26, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
Over at Propene#Combustion, there's this little equation:
I assume that the labels "propene", "oxygen", and "carbon dioxide" are meant to go under the bracket/underbrace, like they do for "water", rather than to the side of the molecules as they appear above. Anyone know how to fix this? I've been staring at the <chem> code for a while now and can't figure it out. I don't think is browser issue, as it appears the same way in various browsers and computers that I have tried. Yilloslime ( talk) 19:52, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
I have never settled on the meaning of poly, as in polyamine. Is ethylenediamine a polyamine? My inclination is that it is not. -- Smokefoot ( talk) 21:06, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Just made a stub for this compound. If someone were willing to add the "chembox" infobox to the article I'd be very appreciative. - Darouet ( talk) 20:22, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
Over on WP:WPM we been working on identifying draft which come under our project and reviewing them at Wikipedia:WikiProject Mathematics/List of math draft pages. Part of this process involved finding draft which had mathematical of chemical equations in them. Quite a few of them come under your project and we have listed them at Wikipedia:List of draft pages on science and engineering. You may wish to examine these and see if any should be promoted to main space. -- Salix alba ( talk): 07:41, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Probably of interest to participants here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Naphthalene-1,5-dione. XOR'easter ( talk) 23:33, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Hello there, while looking at the Cannizzaro reaction, can the aldehyde be replaced by an aldimine? Then the aldimine undergoes the reaction to yield an amine and an amide. Where can I look for information about that? At the moment, it seems original research. Secondly, on isobutyraldehyde, "it undergoes the Cannizaro reaction even though it has alpha hydrogen atom.", unsourced. On TishchenkoReaction, "the Tishchenko reaction is used to obtain isobutyl isobutyrate, a specialty solvent, sourced. So, does the isobutyraldehyde undergoes a Cannizzaro reaction to yield both the alcohol (isobutyl) and the carboxylate (isobutyrate)? Where can I look for information about that? Consequently, is or was there a collaboration on Organic Chemistry, say a Wikiproject? -- Mountainninja ( talk) 01:50, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
There is now a project to migrate away from the texvc renderer for <math>
expressions.
This was the default a few years ago which produces PNG images, now we have a hybrid solution with uses MathJax in the backend to produce svg images and sometimes xml. There is still some legacy from texvc as it is used in the frist parsing step of the current engine. This means there are some idiosyncrasies in the syntax which differ from standard LaTex:
Current syntax | Suggested replacement | Comment |
---|---|---|
$ | \$ | redefinition would involve changing the character code |
% | \% | redefinition would involve changing the character code |
\and | \land | causes normal align environment to fail |
\or | \lor | see [3]; causes teubner to fail |
\part | \partial | acceptable if the document doesn't use sectioning with \part. |
\ang | \angle | this only conflicts with siunitx package. |
\C | \Complex | conflicts with puenc.def e.g. from hyperref package |
\H | \mathbb{H} | conflicts with text command \H{0} which is ő. |
\bold | \mathbf | |
\Bbb | \mathbb | |
\pagecolor | remove | not needed and not working anymore, done on en-wiki mainspace |
<ce>...</ce> |
<chem>...</chem> |
Chemistry environment, done on en-wiki mainspace |
The first step in the project will involve deprecating the old syntax and running a bot or semi-automated edits to change the syntax. These should not result in any visible change to the pages. The bot doing the work is User:Texvc2LaTeXBot which is currently seeking approval. Changes will also be made to the Visual Editor to produce the new syntax.
Subsequent stages in the project are discussed at
mw:Extension:Math/Roadmap, these involve some more complex problems with the <chem>
syntax. Eventually the texvc part will be removed completely and there may be some slight change to the rendered output. The main discussion of the project happens at
T195861 and your input is welcome.
Discussion on the English wikipedia should be on
WT:WPM--
Salix alba (
talk):
15:58, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
as to Draft:Amphetamine synthesis.Feel free to accept at your discretion, shall this be encyclopedic-ally notable enough :) ∯WBG converse 04:56, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
Facto Post – Issue 13 – 29 May 2018
![]() The Editor is
Charles Matthews, for
ContentMine. Please leave feedback for him, on his User talk page.
To subscribe to Facto Post go to
Wikipedia:Facto Post mailing list. For the ways to unsubscribe, see the footer.
Facto Post enters its second year, with a Cambridge Blue (OK, Aquamarine) background, a new logo, but no Cambridge blues. On-topic for the ScienceSource project is a project page here. It contains some case studies on how the WP:MEDRS guideline, for the referencing of articles at all related to human health, is applied in typical discussions. Close to home also, a template, called {{ medrs}} for short, is used to express dissatisfaction with particular references. Technology can help with patrolling, and this Petscan query finds over 450 articles where there is at least one use of the template. Of course the template is merely suggesting there is a possible issue with the reliability of a reference. Deciding the truth of the allegation is another matter. This maintenance issue is one example of where ScienceSource aims to help. Where the reference is to a scientific paper, its type of algorithm could give a pass/fail opinion on such references. It could assist patrollers of medical articles, therefore, with the templated references and more generally. There may be more to proper referencing than that, indeed: context, quite what the statement supported by the reference expresses, prominence and weight. For that kind of consideration, case studies can help. But an algorithm might help to clear the backlog. ![]()
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MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 18:19, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
The Fundamental resolution equation article is in need of love and is on the same equation as the Purnell equation article. I hate tedious algebra ( talk) 04:03, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Empirically, an acid can be said to be completely dissociated in solution when the concentration of molecules, HA, is below the detection limit for the species. There appear to be two, mutually incompatible, ways of quantifying what a strong acid is. See acid strength and acid dissociation constant for details.
The first is the number -log10 55.5. 55.5 is the concentration/1M of H2O pure water. This seems to be the criterion commonly used for designating a compound as a superacid.
The second depends on the buffer capacity of the solvent, which rises very steeply with decreasing pH, starting at about pH 1 in aqueous solutions. This is independent of the pK value of the acid and is the cause of the solvent levelling effect.
What, if anything, should be done in WP about this contradictory state of affairs? Petergans ( talk) 09:35, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Is there a chemistry-based definition of a metal? I suspect not. If there was one I presume there would be no argh-bargy about where to draw the line of demarcation between metals and non metals, at least within the discipline of chemistry. Sandbh ( talk) 07:57, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
Thank you.
I was interested in definitions based on chemical properties instead of physical properties such as shininess or conductivity. For example, simple cation formation or having at least one basic oxide. The challenge is that there are some metals like tantalum or tungsten that meet neither of these criteria. Just what is it, from a chemist's point of view, that warrants classifying Ta and W as metals?
There is not much of a gradient, as I understand it, in distinguishing between metals and nonmetals. The consensus of the literature classifies B, Si, Ge, As, Sb, and Te as metalloids. And Wikipedia classifies At as a metalloid, on the basis of its apparent properties, noting it has been predicted to have a fully metallic band structure. So, apart from H, elements to the left of the metalloids in the periodic table are metals.
The context for my question is a desire to improve our
metal article. It seems odd that there does not seem to be an inclusive definition of a metal based purely on chemical properties.
Sandbh (
talk)
10:38, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
That would be awkward since H is capable of forming alloy-like hydrides, featuring metallic bonding, with some transition metals. I'm not pretending this is an easy question—I don't yet see how to do it without including at least one physical property like conductivity. Sandbh ( talk) 13:03, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
The proposed definition of a metal applies at SATP. It does not matter if, at temperatures lower or higher than 25 °C, the metal in question becomes a semimetal, semiconductor, or an insulator. AFAIK there is no simple Sb3+ cation. The closest I have seen in the literature is [Sb(H2O)4(OH)2+. The compound Sb8(GaCl4)2, which contains the homopolycation, Sb82+, was also prepared in 2004. The status of Sb "salts" was strongly criticised by Axiosaurus on the metalloid talk page. Evidence for the existence of a simple Sb cation, or a genuine Sb salt, appears to be lacking. Sandbh ( talk) 12:40, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Double sharp: @ Droog Andrey: thank you Double sharp for those sources.
I now think too much significance is being attached to aqueous cation formation for As?, Sb, and Bi (and Ge). The species concerned seem to found only in highly acidic media, perhaps requiring negative pH in the case of Sb. I tend to be reminded of the claim that Hg was a transition metal based on the purported existence of Hg(IV) even though, as Jensen noted, the experimental conditions were quite extreme. In a similar vein, I'd regard the presence of Ge?, As?, Sb, and Bi aqueous cations as being too marginal to warrant classifying any of these elements as metals.
The original proposed definition stands up reasonably well i.e. "In the periodic table, any element which (a) features a structure characterised by "metallic" bonding; or (b) has a basic oxide, is classified as a metal." While Bi comprises covalently bonded atoms stacked in layers, its basic oxide is the starting point for most Bi chemisty. Sandbh ( talk) 10:41, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Anyway, I think the case of Sb(H2O)83+ is rather different from that of HgIV. The latter, if it exists at all, only appears in one compound at extreme conditions and does not illuminate anything else about Hg chemistry, which is resolutely that of a post-transition metal; so it is not terribly important for classification, unlike what is expected for Cn. But Sb3+ can be considered the starting point of hydrolysis that leads to Sb(H2O)4(OH)2+ and thence to Sb(OH)3; given that Sb has the ability to form "salts" formally involving a simple Sb3+ cation, like Bi, Po, and At but unlike As, Se, and Te (which only form basic salts), thinking of this cation as a starting point does seem to help understanding Sb chemistry even if it itself only appears at extreme conditions. I would say much the same of the cations Tl3+, Sn2+, Pb2+, Ce4+, Zr4+, and Hf4+. On the other hand, since As2O3 is a predominantly acidic oxide, and AsIII appears to quickly hydrolyse all the way to As(OH)3 (arsenious acid) in water, I would agree that thinking of As3+ is unhelpful.
When it comes down to it, all metals have a nonmetallic side (even caesium forms alkalides) and all nonmetals have a metallic side (even helium has a few similarities to beryllium), and especially around the metalloid line a binary distinction is difficult to maintain. We are not saying that antimony is wholly metallic or wholly nonmetallic; both statements are nonsense. To the extent that the question "is Sb a metal or not" makes sense, it must be asked in terms of which one gives a better first-order understanding of what one might expect of its physical and chemical properties. Since +3 is antimony's predominant oxidation state, in which Sb forms a cation and has an amphoteric oxide, I think it is less misleading to call it a metal with caveats than a nonmetal with caveats. The approach of looking at the most stable oxidation state in the p-block incidentally calls B, Si, Ge, As, and Te nonmetals, Sb a metal, and is agnostic on At given that At3+ has not yet been found AFAIK (although At+ and AtO+ being known suggests to me that it is a possibility). (Ge ends up on the nonmetal side because it forms a cation and has an amphoteric oxide in its unstable +2 oxidation state, and does neither in its stable +4 state.) Double sharp ( talk) 06:04, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Double sharp: Earlier you wrote, "Is Bi2O3 really completely basic, though? It's definitely more basic than Sb2O3, but Bi2O3 will dissolve in warm and very concentrated KOH." In his Treatise on Inorganic Chemistry (1956 p. 677), Remy wrote, "The insolubility of bismuth oxide in dilute alkalis, as compared with the amphoteric oxides of arsenic and antimony, marks it out as being definitely a basic oxide." That seems to be the explanation then for regarding bismuth oxide as being basic. So, at this stage, the original proposed definition based on having "metallic" bonding or having a basic oxide appears to still hold. Sandbh ( talk) 06:01, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
I would say that there isn't really any chemical properties that define metals. They do tend to have lower electronegativity than nonmetals, but there are exceptions. As far as I'm aware, in the context of chemistry, a metal is a element that in its pure form, under standard conditions, is considered metal ( elements that are considered metalloids are sometimes also included), based on its physical characteristics. Or alternatively to the electrical properties of a substance. OrganoMetallurgy ( talk) 18:53, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Here's an update of the suggested definition of a metal, based on chemical properties:
Any element which… * forms a simple cation in aqueous solution; or * has a basic oxide; or * uses d or f electrons in chemical bonding… merits being classified as a metal.
Sandbh ( talk) 10:25, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Double sharp: The challenge is how to cater for metals that don't form simple cations namely Zr, Hf; Nb, Ta; W; Tc; and Os. The first four of these form interstitial (metallic) hydrides. The only suitable chemical property I can see for W, Tc and Os is their capacity to exist in more than eight integral oxidation states. So that would give:
Any element which… * forms a simple cation in aqueous solution; or * has a basic oxide; or * forms an interstitial hydride; or * can exist in more than eight integral oxidation states… merits being classified as a metal.
The capacity to form an interstitial hydride, as I understand it, is partly related to the existence of a metallic lattice, so I'm OK with that criterion.
The capacity to exist in more than eight integral oxidation states is less satisfactory because it isn't immediately clear why it's associated with metallicity. Still, it's an improvement on the former definition. Thoughts? Sandbh ( talk) 01:27, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
One approach (which I think should be almost mandatory for most articles), is to build the lede on major ( WP:TERTIARY) sources (not the damn OED). What are the "bibles" on metals? Get them and rely on them. As it stands, readers are force-fed these lame sources at the first five references:
-- Smokefoot ( talk) 13:50, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
Facto Post – Issue 14 – 21 July 2018
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MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 06:10, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
Just because the portal has been abandoned does not mean that the portal is useless. There is valuable information on the portal, especially if a person is interested in the quickly seeing the vocabulary for a field and not just reading an encyclopedia article. Unless the plan is to remove the PORTAL parameter from all of the WikiProject templates, it should be put back. Leave it to the reader to judge the usefulness of the information on the portal page. Use case example: a person is learning a foreign language and needs to learn the most important words in Chemistry. The Chemistry portal page will give them that information where the Chemistry article will not.
Portals are setup to do rotations of articles automatically. As long as the choice of articles is contained in the Top or High category, if code is written to randomly choose an article from one of those two categories by just grabbing the introduction automatically (TextExtracts), it does not need to be maintained in order for it to work. Zzmonty ( talk) 07:55, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
I just started Nanodumbbell and have no idea what I'm doing. Please visit the article and see if the "Effect of Surfactant on Growth of ZnO Nanodumbbells..." external link is the right thing. Are these things silica or zinc or what? Many thanks! :) Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 23:22, 24 July 2018 (UTC)