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I've added MLB All-time Managerial wins which has the top 10 career winners for a manager according to MLB.com. I've added links to the list to all of the listed managers. As there are still 3 managers active on the list, if anyone sees that Bobby Cox (ATL), Tony LaRussa (STL), or Joe Torre (NYY) have a win, please try to remember. Thanks!
If anyone would like to add anything, like loses, win pct., or numbers 11 and beyond, feel free. It's not limited to 10. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mghabmw ( talk • contribs).
I notice above that there was a big movement to shriink the succession boexes. I have noticed that some of them were done incorrectly. I have noticed that both the Sandy Koufax and Barry Bonds succession boxes were not closed correctly. I do not know how widespread this problem is but I had to make the following edits to correct these problems: [1] and [2].
Since the problem edits [3] [4] were by different individuals, I do not know how widespread the problem is. Please check tht you have closed all your succession boxes properly. -- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 16:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
You may want to visit Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/All-Star Final Vote to participate in the discussion of our latest featured content candidate.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 19:51, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I created a new template for linking to stats sites. It combines the previous ones into a single template and allows for automated linking to the correct page if the page id is not specified. The template is in my sandbox presently, and I have made examples on Roy Halladay and Chris Young (outfielder). For Halladay, the automatic linking work just fine for espn and baseball-reference and almost perfectly for mlb, but for Young it does not work because of the (outfielder) appendage in the page name. When appendages like that are added (or other name oddities), specifying the page id is necessary like it is in the current templates. The styling is modeled after the external links template used in city articles. I can add other sites to the template if desired. -- Basar ( talk · contribs) 05:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I have "activated" this template at {{ Baseballstats}}. I have made it backwards compatible with {{ Baseball-reference}} and would like to redirect that template to the new one soon. -- Basar ( talk · contribs) 07:49, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
There is a bug with this when it comes to retired players. ESPN does not have pages for them. So I want you to only do this for current players. Soxrock ( talk · contribs) 18:06, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, you're right about the id from the baseball-reference.com template being transcluded into the new template. My bad there. But now that's been settled, take a look a few things that will happen if and when we redirect the templates:
In short, I think that there are too many problems with the template in its current form and too little immediate gain to justify a redirect from {{ Baseball-reference}}. And considering the unwanted negative light that the previous EL arguments shone on this project, making changes with several glaring flaws would be a very bad idea.
On a more positive note, I still think that the template has tons of inherent value, but to implement with as little friction as possible would require one of two approaches:
I hope this makes some sense to people... Caknuck 07:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
These seem somewhat redundant. There's very little different information between the three pages. I have a feeling we could easily merge them all into one page:
500 home run club
600 home run club
700 home run club
What does everyone else think?
Bjewiki
00:55, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I am looking for some feedback on an evergrowing template. Do you think that defunct leagues should be split off from Template:Professional Baseball as a separate template or do you think this is a better navigational aid with a unified template?-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 03:24, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Jaranda ( talk · contribs) has taken it upon himself to redirect the articles 2006 Kansas City Royals season and 1980 Tampa Bay Buccaneers season. I've saved them and put the underconstruction tag on them, but enough has been said, he's going with the non-notable card. Just an FYI that he is trying to redirect them, and your help is needed. Please say yes to these. Soxrock 23:56, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I plan to enlarge those, but, sorry, but I can't complete 2000 articles in one day, sorry :(. Feel free to help though, I can't do it alone. Thanks for all your support Soxrock 01:29, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
The baseball-reference references are there because that's my primary source. You know, citing sources. Either way, I'll add other sources as I use them Soxrock 01:31, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Again the best thing to do in my opinion is to create the team pages by decade, and convert it into prose, not a bunch of copyrighted, crufty lists. Maybe we could get these decade articles into WP:FAs. I'm down for that. Jaranda wat's sup 04:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
It's a baseball guide, that doesn't mean much in my opinion. Also discussing this here is a conflect of inflect in a way for almost all of us, including me. Everyone here specializes in sports articles, we need people that doesn't edit this stuff to decide a notabilty guideline, for both seasons and players. You guys get what I mean. We can't agrue our beliefs to death. We need neutral people. Jaranda wat's sup 06:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, Baseball Bugs, for noticing my point. Look, New York Yankees is such a huge article that it's hard for my computer to open the page successfully. But if I went to 2000 New York Yankees season (the year they last won the World Series) then I would be able to find everything I want to know about that season. I wouldn't have to scramble throughout the main article to try to find stuff about one season. It is buried in the article, hard to find it, and is in much less detail than would be in the season article. The season articles are a great way to remove some information from the bloated primary articles so we can describe the whole season in complete detail, rather than just saying that they made the playoffs and were eliminated in the ALCS. I can't believe you're actually against this. And it's not just baseball. Football, hockey, and basketball have them also. Hundreds and hundreds of users work on these articles. You're gonna have to convince all of them, Jaranda, that these articles aren't notable. So good luck trying to convince about 500 other people. Ksy92003 (talk) 06:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
When it comes to copyright issues, there is no "hey, can you wait" or "we will leave this alone for now." We get emails daily asking us to take stuff down from Wikipedia because of editors, such as yourselves, wishing to copy text and just slap it on Wikipedia. I will also be either deleting or redirecting these articles myself and I have an army will who join me. Like it or not, you're on our site, you need to follow our policy on copyright. Period. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 07:16, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
If you just delete every article for 'copyright concerns' then you are deleting a lot of things that are NOT copyrighted. -- Borgarde talk 08:22, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Please stop. I will be working hard today and for the next week or two. I will get these to look better and lot like their ripped from a site. Jeez, I guess there is no deadline, but this will still take a while, and redirecting them will only make it harder for me to get to the articles. Don't worry, I'll work very hard. I have to. Soxrock 11:41, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
What is the copyright issue if you are reproducing stats? The goal would be not to mirror their layout, but they do not own the statistics regarding the team. If they hit collectively 28 home runs, and the site says it, and you say it, its not copyright. I would reccomend changing layouts if that is the issue, but you cannot copyright basic facts. --
SevenOfDiamonds
12:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Exactly Ksy. Baseball-reference does not own the stats. They do not own anything other than the site. And we're always said to have to have "verifable sources". Well, their sourced, but somehow they violate copyright? Most of the articles that were redirected did not even have stats and therefore did not violate copyright in some of your opinions. Not being copyvio, you redirected without consensus. I have reverted all the redirects that I have seen, and PLEASE help work on them. Why redirect when you can help them. You're doing the opposite of what you should do. Lets see, what should I do?
So please help us work on them. Soxrock 13:39, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, you do have a point. I don't like the redirect, but, hell, I won't be working on the Cardinals for some time. I'll be busy with the more recent teams (teams since 1961) and then I'll start going into the deeper histories. But do not redirect any Yankee articles at least, those do have some content. And, besides, I plan to add the construction tag to all the articles. So I still would prefer construction over redirect Soxrock 15:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Look I'm sorry I called them nn, but still copyright trumps policy, and the construction tag won't do anything Jaranda wat's sup 17:02, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Nobody can own mere numbers. Anybody can watch a game and keep track of statistics themselves. It's called "score keeping," something I do. It's when you watch all the games and keep track of what happens yourself. If I watched a game and saw a player hit a home run, his first of the season, would I have to get permission from MLB or anybody to use that? No, because it happened, I saw it happened. Would I own the stats because I saw it happen? No.
And Jaranda, I'm getting ready to send you a comment on your talk page. Please reply there. Ksy92003 (talk) 17:38, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Jaranda, keep in mind this. While the stats may be licensed to ESPN and B-R, WE STILL CITE THEM IN THE ARTICLES! That's good enough in my mind. We aren't stealing them if we cite our sources Soxrock 17:40, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. I am only using a portion. I'm not using all of them. Case proven Soxrock 17:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
So I probably reverted something somewhere without noticing this. Just don't overwork yourself when you're not sure if it's really going to be worth it in the end. Pilotguy 19:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Recently, an editor zapped most of the documentation from the New York Yankees page that documented how old the nickname "Yankees" is, i.e. it's about as old as "Highlanders", despite historical revisionist attempts to make it seem like "Yankees" appeared overnight in 1913. Presumably the reason the editor did that was to make the article a bit less wordy. In light of that, I'm thinking it might be useful to make a separate article about the origins of the team nicknames, and reduce the minutia on that subject in the individual team articles. Before I start that, I would like to know (1) is there already such an article; and (2) does it make sense to write such an article? I have plenty of citations for the info, FYI. Baseball Bugs 14:27, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
You know, I like the idea. Because I've read the Yankee name was very popular even when they were officially the Highlanders Soxrock 14:56, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
(I originally posted this to KSY's page)
Okay, let's see. Firstly, I'm not involved in this issue, so I think you can accept my opinion as unbiased.
Secondly: I'm really, really sorry, but numbers can be owned. It's all about format and context. An mp3 is just numbers, but try telling that to the RIAA. Those numbers, in that format, in that context, do belong to MLB.com, and we would need their permission to reproduce them. And we do not have that permission.
Thirdly, having an article on an individual season for an individual baseball team... that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But they can't just be stat dumps, or the copyright lawyers will have our heads. Do it in prose - example, 1985 Kansas City Royals season. Talk about the season. You can construct the article in your userspace, and move it out into articlespace when it's ready.
Until such time as you have an article about an individual team's individual season, links to that season will have to be redirects to the article about the team itself.
Okay? DS 17:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
The presentation style of the numbers, i.e the order in which each stat tends to be presented, tends to follow the implicit guidelines in the Scoring Rules section of the baseball rules. It gives a list of what stats the official scorer is supposed to collect, and there is an implied "order" to those stats. I would say that's why they are often presented in a similar way in different sources. Baseball Bugs 17:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, let me say this. I took only a portion from B-R. I didn't take all the stats. And, still being sourced, I don't see copyright issues. Soxrock 17:35, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
You guys seem to be missing my point, the stats can be improved, but frankly they are not my main problem her, but the bot generated content in other words needs to go until such time the articles are written in real prose. As long as you guys don't take their statistics and dump them on wikipedia, and instead use a small portion of them (as was shown in an example above) it should be fine, at least from my point of view. The major problem I see is the rambotlike generated content. The site that we are generating the information from is not free. So just make sure to do the writing from more then one source, and use prose. The solution here has already been mentioned, but I'll mention it again. Redirect all of the season articles not in prose. This is not deleting them, the content is still in the history for you to go back in your own time and revert it if you like (for the citations). Just go one by one, write one in prose with sources, ect, move on to the next one. —— Eagle101 Need help? 17:42, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Re-directing won't do anything. If you re-direct the pages, then you're removing the ability of anybody who would want to edit them. It would be best to just leave them as their own article and wait for somebody to come and expand it. Ksy92003 (talk) 17:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
First of all, the sites in question don't even have statistics. And for the last time, we aren't violating copyright... We aren't claiming the stats as our own. And one thing I pointed out is that this all started out because Jaranda thought the articles weren't notable. He has moved on to his 4th argument after we countered the first three. He just makes up random arguments because he keeps being proven wrong.
But once again, We aren't claiming the stats as our own. Ksy92003 (talk) 18:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
What generated content? In the stubs the prose? Soxrock 18:08, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Uh, that's just looking at my source, B-R, and putting in the simple information. It needs to be remembered that they are underconstruction Soxrock 18:11, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. It's self-prose, not plagarism Soxrock 18:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
That may be overblown. Just add construction, it's the best idea Soxrock 18:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Eagle101, where did you think those "first 3 sentences that are the same on each article" came from? I think you just accused us of copyrighting just because some words are the same. And again, I was the person to add those sentences originally when I added them to 2007 Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim season, 2007 Oakland Athletics season, and 2007 Chicago Cubs season. I added those sentences myself and didn't get them from anybody else. So I am hurt that you accused me of doing something like that. Ksy92003 (talk) 18:27, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
The first three sentences doesn't violate copyright Jaranda wat's sup 18:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
It's alright. But I don't see how it's a copyright violation if I wrote those sentences myself, using only my brain. I don't see how it's still a violation if I created them all by myself. Ksy92003 (talk) 18:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
That would be here. This is the page of the terms of the website you took the data and formatting from. Specifically, I want you to read this. 6. Site Content. You may not frame, capture, harvest, or collect any part of the Site or Content without SRI's advance written consent. SRI may make changes to the Content, this Site, or the products or services made available in connection with this Site at any time, with or without notice, and makes no commitment to update any of these items. Despite any efforts of SRI to provide accurate information in the Content, errors may occur. Before acting on any information appearing on the Site, you should verify its accuracy. That means we cannot copy their content, especially in their format, What yall have done is copied in his format and we have to delete because his terms forbid it. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 19:10, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Ok. I have tried to contact them. What is their official e-mail, because I keep getting failure responses. And thanks for clueing us in on that. Soxrock 19:23, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I have gotten through. I am currently awaiting a 3rd response from baseball-reference. I've got a few questions to ask for some of you.
Thank you Soxrock 20:12, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Rule 10.02 states that the official scorer is to gather certain records for each player in each game. The batting figures, for example: AB, R, H, RBI, 2B, 3B, HR, TB, SB, SH, SF, BBB, IBB, HBP, INT/OBS, SO. Additionally, the following stats are to be calculated from the tabulated records: BA, SA, OBP. Interestingly, CS and GIDP are not required, although they are typically captured at the major league level. The sequence above does not totally square with either MLB or Baseball-Reference, but it's similar. [6] [7] Baseball Bugs 18:56, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Looking at the articles for each of the baseball positions (like Shortstop, First baseman, Right fielder, etc) you see several lists down at the bottom. I can see reason for including the hall of famers at a position but is it really necessary to have the very subjective and POV listing of "notable" current players. Does that really add any value to the article? Agne Cheese/ Wine 20:00, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
The above article and a similar article for each year up to 2007 exist and I don't see the notability of it. Can someone with a bot tag each article for deletion? DandyDan2007 21:34, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to speedy it if anyone doesn't object. This is a little too much, and a list of the managers is best suited for the season article Jaranda wat's sup 23:12, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Ok, you wanted this. Here is my conversation with Sean Forman, operator of Baseball-Reference.com
of your stats for our seasonal pages? I only ask because I read the Terms and Conditions. Any response will be appreciated
culling of the stats on all pages, or just a citation of stats from a handful of pages?
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1921_New_York_Yankees_season). The plan is to use the prominent stats, you know, Games played, At-bats, HR, RBI... but not to use the in-depth stats (like OBP). In the external links, we have you cited for the in-depth stats. As for the usage, we'll have you cited on every page that we have stats from your site on (that's every single individual season page we create, which will be for all 30 teams). If you cannot grant it for us on all those pages (roughly 2500 pages with a portion your stats and citation), then we'll try to find a reduced way to use them, if you allow. Thanks for the response
your pages. Why do you want to take so much time entering that data when there are much better formatted sources for statistical data available? Why not focus on the narrative for the team rather than factual data that is available elsewhere? I'm assuming the gamelogs are also being transcribed from my site or retrosheet's.
Wikipedia takes a lot of traffic from my site and due to the use of the nofollow tag, I get only some benefit from the use of the data and the links to my site. Would it be possible to have my site white-listed and have the nofollow tags taken off of links to my site?
I'm not saying no out of hand, but I feel like Wikipedia does not compensate the content holders for the data they provide. The use of the nofollow really galls me.
Let me explain the nofollow tag. Search engines rank sites on the basis of the sites that link to them. Adding a nofollow tag (do a view source on a page with my site and you'll see a in the code for links to any external site) tells the search engine to ignore this link. I have thousands of links from wikipedia and there is some benefit to that, but my standing in the search engines is hampered because Wikipedia is a giant link juice sink. It benefits from everyone's link to it, but does not return the favor to sites it links. It is very selfish behaviour. I would appreciate if you would ask someone in charge that you are going to use data from my site on 1000's of pages and will be linking to it, but would like to remove the nofollow from those links. If this really is such a great project, that should be no problem. I'm not a spammer.
The other issue is that reference.com and answers.com and others can take a dump of wikipedia database strip out the external links and then make money off of my content.
That is all well and good, but what happens when I go out of business? You say you enjoy the site, but your work actively undermines its health. You can say "C'est la vie", but those are the facts.
I can't stop you from using the data and I appreciate the link, but I feel that these actions essentially only benefit Wikipedia, and damage me.
we will reduce the number of visitors on your site, which will lead to fewer ads, which in turn will lead to less money, makinf ir harder to keep your site on. I see your concern now.
I'll continue to find white-listing. I mean, I hope that you say yes, but, then again, I would hope that saying that wouldn't hurt your website and your life at the same time. Thanks for your response
ahead of me on searches for ballplayers, it is not outside the realm of possiblity that I would be forced to quit working on the site full-time as I've been doing for a year and go back to my day job. I have a hard time encouraging that to happen.
I know that the data is in the public domain and can't be copyrighted, but I just wish WP was a little better at compensating their sources.
I'm not trying to hurt people's lives or sites. And seeing how Wikipedia is always ahead of your site on searches (sometimes I don't even see you), I see why you wouldn't be happy about the nofollow tags. I feel sorry that they apply, because it affects what both of us do, because if there were no nofollow tags, you might be able to say yes and not be affected. I feel sorry for that. Eitherway, I'll look into white-listing, it might be fair compensation for you. Of course, there is a dispute over at Wikipedia about how the numbers are copyrighted or not. It appeared we might be able to use stats until I saw your terms of use, which is why I'm talking with you. Thanks for the reply
entering data, but I would be opposed to machine-aided copying of large numbers of pages.
paper or something? And, by machine-aided copying, do you mean using something like a robot to do so quicker? Thanks
My concern is in you using a robot to grab the data and auto-enter it into wikipedia. You should also keep in mind that occasionally the data does change as corrections are found.
too-similar and it would look crappy anyway, so it will be hand entering. It takes at least 20 minutes to add stats to a page, and we do not use robots for adding stats, it would create a huge mess. Thanks for your permission to use the stats and your site will be linked on every page. I'll tell other users. Thank you so much, and, again, they will be hand entered, not machine-aided copying. I don't even know how to use a robot on that site
In other words, it is OK to use the stats from baseball-reference. Soxrock 21:39, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I guess use them, no objections, but when someone wants to create a properly sourced prose article and remove the stats. Let them, we should be using them when there is no prose to back it up. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 21:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, don't forget this:
We only include a portion of his stats. There is still much more at his site than we will include here. I talked to him and expressed concern for him, but, you really can't forget that he has much more valuable information at his site. It hopefully won't take a hit and it'll still be good on this site. But don't think I wasn't concerned for him. In fact, remember the " Oh, so your concern is that, by using a portion of your stats on our pages, we will reduce the number of visitors on your site, which will lead to fewer ads, which in turn will lead to less money, making it harder to keep your site on. I see your concern now.". So I did address this carefully. Either way, with it still being cited, and the fact that a lot of people check it daily, regardless of whether they see it here or not, I don't expect it to be affected. And, being an EL, a general reader may think that it will include additional info on the subject. Eitherway, thanks for your opinion Wknights. I want stat tables, but not at someone else's expense Soxrock 23:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I am also taking to Mr. Forman now; while the information is public domain according to him, he feels that we are undercutting him and others by posting the tables. Plus, as Mr Forman said, his stuff changes a lot and if yall are not here, the information won't be correct here. Don't worry about the "nofollow" stuff, that is a technical issue that cannot be sorted out by us. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:19, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Instead of a whole table of all stats, would something like 2007 Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim season's stats be better, where we just show the team leaders (or possibly a top-3) in select categories? That way, we aren't showing all the stats and the season articles wouldn't be a substitute for whole websites like Baseball-reference, yet we still show the important starts. Ksy92003 (talk) 03:34, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Stat | Player | Total | Stat | Player | Total |
---|
That way, you have two columns. But that's the way I think it's done. I'm not sure. However, the section headings will need to be adjusted to something like simply "statistics" Soxrock 17:00, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I added another heading at the top for the empty spacer column. But now, is there any way we can somehow shade out the empty column? Right now, it looks kinda weird a bit. Also, I expanded the table so it isn't all scrunched up. Ksy92003 (talk) 17:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed on many articles that images of regular baseball cards for a player's article are promptly deleted, but baseball cards that have autographs are usually left up on the player's article. Do these cards qualify as fair use, or are people intentionally mislabeling the images as fair use to avoid instant deletion?
If the cards aren't allowed, then what images are allowed as fair use? There are a lot of player articles, especially retired players, completely devoid of images, Any help would be much appreciated. SashaNein 14:58, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Baseball cards aren't fair use as they are strongly copyrighted by topps or the other brands. Cards that are pre-1923 are in Public Domain, and I heard that Goudey cards from the 1930s are also in public domain as the copyright wasn't renewed. As for the others, they are only fair use if the article talks about the card in detail. Not the player. Jaranda wat's sup 16:10, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Should articles about milestones, such as 40-40 club and the like, be merged into one article, perhaps baseball career milestones, with redirects? If nothing else, this will cut down on AfD requests like the current 40-40-40 club action. davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 23:59, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know why someone Copy/Paste moved the Closer article from Closer (baseball) to Closing pitcher? And then another person moved Talk:Closer (baseball) to Talk:Closing Pitcher instead of Talk:Closing pitcher, so the whole thing is a bit of a mess. I would have tried to get it all set right but I don't know what the consensus on the article title is. -- Rabbethan 03:49, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Currently, the list of HOF-inducted players within team articles includes mention of almost any HOF-inducted players who happened to have once played for that team, regardless of number of seasons played. For instance, Hank Greenberg is listed as a HOF Pittsburgh Pirate despite having played only one season for the Pirates (his last season, in 1947). He was actually inducted as a Detroit Tiger, and is listed (correctly) in the Tigers' article as a Tigers' HOFer.
Shouldn't a respective team's listed HOF players include mention of only those players who were inducted specifically for that particular team?
-- J.R. Hercules 03:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
No - because in many cases, they were just as representative for other teams. Sparky Anderson was inducted as a Red but managed twice as many years in Detroit. Gary Carter was inducted as an Expo but preferred to be remembered as a Met.
Pascack
20:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
That is your opinion that he is best known for his time with the Mets, and you only think that because you are a Mets fan.-- Yankees10 21:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Hello everyone, #wikipedia-baseball has now launched on IRC. If you would like to join the conversation, please feel free to visit the channel. -- JA10 Talk • Contribs 03:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
FYI, an AfD has been posted for one of the Indians' bullpen catchers, Dan Williams. I thought it might be of interest to people here. Here's the link in case you'd like to comment. -- Sanfranman59 16:55, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Portal:Baseball has lots of redlinked features. It is fallen into disrepair. If anyone interested in baseball wants to work with it, it really needs work. It is setup to run everything weekly right now ... that could be changed to monthly if there isn't enough interest to add content every week. -- B 22:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
You may be interested in the following discussion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Barry Bonds home run watch.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 13:07, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Just so you know, I've enlarged the standings templates to fit all the teams in one line to conform to more computers. I operate off two computers that are completely different in how they have standings load up, and so, for mine and all others who had wide computers, I have modified it to fit better. No harm done in my mind. Soxrock 00:05, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I expanded this article significantly with as much useful info that I could find. Maybe we could extend it to a WP:FA. If anyone want to copyedit or add useful info (especially anything on his after-playing days), we should. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 05:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Long time baseball fan, first time poster here. I'm inclined to think that players from the Negro League are notable, since a good argument could be made that they reached the highest level available before Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier. There doesn't seem to be any guideline on that according to this project, though. So, what's the conventional wisdom around here on the topic? Thanks! :-) Sidatio 02:40, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
If we decide to open up a whole new can of worms by allowing minor league players into wikipedia, the repercussions will be felt across the other minor league sports pages as well. Say we allow minor league baseball players in wikipedia. Then, you have to go put every NBA D-League guy in. Then every CHL, AHL and all the other plethora of hockey players in. Every player in a minor football and cricket league goes in too. Just because wikipedia has the server space doesn't mean we have to fill it up, and the argument that we should fill it up seems illogical. Remember the first pillar of wikipedia: Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. It isn't appropriate to have an article about every man and woman who has ever played any sport at a near profession level. While the Kinston Indians may have a better level of talent than the Netanya Tigers, they aren't as well known in their respective countries. Remember also, that wikipedia isn't American. It's the English wikipedia. Lots of countries around the world speak the language, and thus, we can't be USA-centric. I may be making an assumption about everyone's nationality, but I do know that we Americans are quite passionate about our sports teams. And that passion my confict with wikipedia policy on occasion. WP:ILIKEIT is never a proper reason for an article. It isn't encyclopedic. It isn't wikipedia. Ravenmasterq 21:49, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Spanneraol, did you do any research on D-league teams before you said that? I did. Only 3 teams (the Colorado 14ers, the Albuquerque Thunderbirds, and the Los Angeles D-Fenders) have roster lists, and of those, only 12 of the total 28 players are listed. Some of them aren't even directed to the right page, and I will fix and delete some of those pages as I find the time. I wonder why your definition of 'most' is less than half of one fifth. Exhibiting ignorance towards WP:CRICKET won't help your cause either. In fact, Baseball could learn a few things from them. They have [10] featured articles to our [11]. Also, they have much clearer notability guidelines to our vagueness:
"Any player who plays in the top professional league in their country is notable. This includes Major League Baseball in North America and Nippon Professional Baseball in Japan, among others. Most minor league players are not considered notable, but some players are as determined by WP:BIO. Baseball executives, coaches, and managers are also notable."
Go to the WP:CRICKET page, read their notability guidlines, and let us strive to become better overall. Let us clear up our guidelines and in turn, better wiki project baseball. Ravenmasterq 20:00, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't really want to read the entire discussion... it's too long. But here are my two cents: I think that a player is notable either once he plays a minimum of one (1) official game with an official Major League Baseball club or once he wins a National Award for Baseball-related activity (ie. Triple-A MVP, Finals MVP Award). The "one official game" standard can be determined by going to Baseball-reference, and by searching the player's name, you can see if the player played a game for an MLB club, as Baseball-reference's database doesn't include statistics from when players played in the minor leagues and doesn't have any information on any player who never played a minimum of one official MLB game. Ksy92003 (talk) 18:52, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:WikiProject Mathematics and Wikipedia:WikiProject Numbers, we request your input on the following guidelines for sports facts included in articles about numbers (quoted below). For example, should the article about the number 42 include Jackie Robinson's jersey number? How about the jersey number of a famous hockey player for whom the number was never retired? How about the #42 draft pick for the Boston Red Sox? I've also included the guidelines for NASCAR as an example of how the guidelines for a specific sport might look like. Knotslip12 20:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Numbers
Numbers that appear in the official rules of the game, such as the total number of players per team, number of game partitions (e.g., 9 innings in baseball) are worth mentioning in the number articles.
A record is worth mentioning if it is from a Major League player, or if it appears in the Guinness Book of World Records. Be sure to indicate the year the record was set in order to facilitate removal when a new record is set.
In sports where the number on a player's shirt is not determined by the position he plays, only numbers that have been retired by a Major League team are worth noting. But if a player's number is determined by the position he plays, this probably falls under the rules of the game consideration above.
Car numbers of teams that have won the Daytona 500 or the NEXTEL Cup Series championship are worth noting in the articles on the corresponding numbers.
You may want to come by and comment at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Chris Young (pitcher).-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 23:36, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I also have a FAC on my own with Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bob Meusel. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 01:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
First off, my apologies if this has been discussed in the past. 99% of my contributions are in the ice hockey project, so I am just here because I have one interest. I was wondering if you feel it would be worth my time and effort (which I am willing to offer) to create a List of Barry Bonds home runs. As the man is about to become the most profilic home run hitter of all-time, I think it would certainly be wiki-worthy to have an extensive list of all his home runs (date, opponent, pitcher, stadium). In fact, I think it would be a slam dunk featured list. I am willing to create the list (I've just started it in my sandbox; but then I thought I should come here and ask if it's been discussed before). What do you think? Skudrafan1 03:25, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Baseball-reference does have a link so you can see all the home runs hit by not only Barry Bonds, but every single ML player. It's one thing to have an external link to that site ( [12]), but in my opinion it's too excessive to copy all that information when it's much easier to just provide a link. Additionally, Baseball-reference spends a lot of time to provide this much in-depth info, and I don't think it's fair to replicate all their hard work.
But that aside, I agree with Jaranda that this would be WP:NOT; Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. A list of all of Bonds' 755 home runs (and more, if/when he hits them) is too indiscriminate, in my opinion. Ksy92003 (talk) 06:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
A very important discussion is taking place regarding the possible deletion of Category:African American baseball players.
The discussion opened on August 3, and will probably close in the next day or two. If you wish to add your comments, don't delay. Cgingold 14:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Is there an online site that list the pitches a pitcher uses.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 18:08, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
The requested baseball articles assessments list is now months old, and double digit, if anyone would like to address it ... [13]. Tx. -- Epeefleche 18:11, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Should we begin to add articles for individual team seasons for 2008? jj137 21:16, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I am trying to add a new section to Chris Young (pitcher) and am wondering why there are no articles for control pitcher & power pitcher. Neither appears at List of baseball jargon (C) or List of baseball jargon (P) although control artist does. I could write these, but I imagine another writer would do at least as well. -- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 14:15, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
List of baseball jargon (C) instead of creating new articles (which would probably never get past the "stub + an arbitrary list of players" stage.) Caknuck 20:53, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Hello again from WP:NUM. We are wondering about Barry Bonds. Do you think the article about the number 700 should mention Barry Bonds's record? PrimeFan 18:59, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Why not? I mean you mention Hank Aaron's 755 HR on that article. Bonds currently has 757, which is now the most historic number in all of baseball, now even more so than 755. If 755 should be mentioned in its correlation to baseball, then so should 757. Ksy92003 (talk) 21:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Since this page is so large, could we move to 7 days for the archive bot? Basar 20:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The template Professional Baseball is massive. Is there anyway to reduce this? Split it? Hide sections? Somehow to make it smaller?-- Borgarde talk 10:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
At {{ Infobox MLB player}}, I'm automating the "team color" process - it will autofill the boxes when i'm done. It's a multi step process so if you guys see something funky going on with the team affiliations and such... don't be shocked. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat 10:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place regarding the possible deletion of List of Los Angeles Dodgers Opening Day Starting Lineups.
Reasons for nomination include WP:NOT#INFO, WP:LISTCRUFT, WP:N, and WP:CP. Ksy92003 (talk) 00:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
It's likely going to be overturned it's in WP:DRV. Jaranda wat's sup 13:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I am an admin who was cleaning out the Candidates for Speedy Deletion Backlog and ran across an article for Desmond Jennings tagged for deletion under criteria A7, no assertion of notability. The most relevent portion of the article reads (or read) "Desmond Jennings (b. October 30, 1986 in Birmingham, Alabama) is a baseball outfielder in the minor league program of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. He bats and throws right-handed. He was drafted in the 10th round of the 2006 MLB Draft." I have defered on making a decsion on this article, as I am uncertain on whether or not a claim of playing minor league baseball counts as an assertion of notability. (I am sure that another admin will delete it shortly.) For my future reference, what is the fate of articles on minor league baseball players? Are they uncontroversial deletes, are some kept and some deleted, or are they all kept? Dsmdgold 03:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I have taken the liberty of adding a line item to the Departments section of your WikiProject navigational template entitled 'Deletion sorting'. This link leads to Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Baseball, a page created by the Deletion Sorting WikiProject to assist in topical notifications of articles nominated for deletion to any of the several deletion forums, with emphasis on WP:AFD. --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me) 01:02, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
The Red Sox project needs more members. We're just getting started, and any interested users may join. New England Review Me! 20:28, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't think wikiprojects on indidviual teams are needed, best thing is to merge with here and make it a subpage. Jaranda wat's sup 20:45, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
So I'm looking through the mlb.com rosters, and I notice that MLB.com uses the term "restricted list" when referring to players that are suspended. There is currently only one team that has a player in this situation, the Tigers and Neifi Perez (see {{ Detroit Tigers roster}} and [14]). Therefore, I am proposing that the label "Suspended List" is replaced with "Restricted List" as that is the term that MLB.com uses. X96lee15 02:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
As a wine editor and baseball fan I got a chuckle out of an article in the Sept 30, 2007 Wine Spectator about a special wine set being produced by VinLozano Imports with Tim Wakefield, Curt Schilling and Manny Ramírez for children's charity. I'm looking to buy a set myself so that I can hopefully take a picture but I'm wondering if these would be a worthwhile mention in the players articles. I love the wine names Manny Being Merlot, Schilling Schardonnay and CaberKnuckle. Here is an online article for more info Red Sox Wine for Charity'. Agne Cheese/ Wine 10:47, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like to call people to join in an imortant discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Dates ranges in infoboxes/templates. This project has a number of infoboxes where this discussion is applicable. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat 02:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Carl Zamloch (first half of 20th century pitcher) is currently on the main page, and desperately needs some cleanup. Anybody up to it? Circeus 03:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I noticed this category today. I'm not sure if Summer Baseball leagues warrant inclusion or not, is this part of some organized effort? FrozenPurpleCube 04:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, Hall of Famers should get the colors of the team they were inducted in. There seems to be a general consensus for that.
Now, that being said. What about coaches? If they sit in the dugout, they should wear the color of the team they are coaching, regardless of what team they gained notoriety as a player, i.e., Rickey Henderson. Though I agree he's most noted as an A, he currently works for the Mets and sits on the bench - wearing a Mets uniform. There seems to be an argument on that.
Opinions, please. Mghabmw 23:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree he is most notable as an A's player and will go to the HoF as one, but he is currently in the Mets roster and we should go by what is current, whether player or manager. Mghabmw 17:32, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I also think that a move to standardized colors for all players would make the most sense. There's a lot of attention being sucked into this that would be better devoted to other issues. - Hit bull, win steak (Moo!) 18:36, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
As part of the Notability wikiproject, I am trying to sort out whether Jordan Brown (baseball player) is notable enough for an own article. I would appreciate an expert opinion. For details, see the article's talk page. If you can spare some time, please add your comments there. Thanks! -- B. Wolterding 08:44, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Do you know if there has been discussion at regarding Championship team templates like they use for National Basketball Association teams?-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 01:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
In baseball, there are certain qualifying numbers that are significant. There are the number of at bats or innings one needs to accumulate to qualify for Rookie of the Year. There is another set of numbers (I believe 162 innings and 510 plate appearances) needed to qualify for annual statistical leadership. What is the number of career games, at bats, plate appearances, innings necessary to qualify for career statistical leadership? I am trying to clean up the WP:LEAD at Hector Lopez and need to correctly state the fact.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 02:40, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Seeing as no-one has mentioned this here yet, there is a proposal being written about the notability for sports. Wikipedia:Notabilty (sports). -- Borgarde talk 12:16, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
We've been running into endless sockpuppets of the banned User:Ron liebman. Some of those socks are now citing SABR as a source. Unfortunately, this puts SABR references in a compromised spot, because Liebman himself is a contributor to SABR. In short, any references to SABR as a source could be "circular" references and have to be considered suspect or invalid until or if they can be independently verified... which defeats the purpose of even using SABR as a source. Therefore, sadly, SABR has to be ruled out as a valid source. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 18:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
We have a problem here. The image for the Baltimore Orioles uniform was listed for deletion, and the claim was that a non-free equivalent could be used. I worried about this, as if this was deleted, it could set precedent to delete all uniform images on this project. I considered reporting this to the project, but decided against it when the discussion overwhelmingly proved that the claim held no water. Last night, I was shocked to find that the user Nv8200p had disregarded the proof and reason, and deleted the page, citing that a free equivalent should be used instead. The discussion is enclosed.
- Silent_Wind_of_Doom ( notify | contribs).
- uploaded by
- non-free image used to illustra a team's unniform's colors. We don't use non-free material to convey this kind of information. Abu badali ( talk) 01:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
- This is used to display the uniform of the team, and is used prominantly in the infobox of the team. This is true of all MLB articles, and it is a major part of most articles, as there are sections describing the current uniform, and the evolution of the uniform through the years. These are key to understanding and identifying the teams, and a graphic that is uniform for each team leads to much more unity in the articles, and is by far much more pleasing.-- Silent Wind of Doom 04:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. Team uniform schemes are easily replaceable by free images. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Clubs and their articles for ways to handle this situation. Videmus Omnia Talk 02:10, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- Keep As Silent Wind of Doom correctly explains, the claim made by nominator that "We don't use non-free material to convey this kind of information" is demonstrably incorrect. The proper thing to do here is not to create a mess by deleting essential and consistent content of MLB articles on an ad hoc basis, but to work with Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball to encourage a transition as practical to free images in a way that maintains the integrity and quality of the encyclopedia.— DCGeist 02:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- Keep Take a look at the soccer images, and take a look at the baseball images. We pride ourselves on the accuracy and detail, and the soccer images are very light on the detail and look absolutely horrible. On the other hand, non-free use images used in this capacity are prevalent. Look at the football articles, which use non-free helmet images. The use of non-free images is not causing any problem, and there is no free substitute that will be able to convey the information as accurately.-- Silent Wind of Doom 05:18, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- The helmet logos are copyrightable and can't be replaced by free equivalents. Unless I'm seriously mistaken, uniform color schemes do not contain enough creative elements to be copyrightable. The fact that you believe the football uniform depitctions don't look good really isn't relevent - the advantage is that they're free. If they don't look good, maybe someone will be motivated to create better ones. But when it comes down to policy, the team uniform schemes are replaceable non-free images per the very first item of our non-free content policy, WP:NFCC#1. Videmus Omnia Talk 05:24, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- That may be, but it would be a serious misstep to apply that policy on an ad hoc basis to an article that is part of a project that has a consistent style across more than a couple dozen related, important articles. To do so precipitously, as is proposed here, would undermine the integrity and quality of our encyclopedia in a rather obvious way. The nomination--whose central claim was baldly erroneous to begin with--should be withdrawn and those who have raised these concerns should work directly with the project to achieve a resolution that's win-win.— DCGeist 06:37, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but have you ever looked at the soccer images. We will absolutely not change to such a system. Those images are horribly innacurate, and are an insult to this encyclopedia. Go ahead, and compare the Chicago Fire jersey to the jersey the players wear here: http://chicago.fire.mlsnet.com/t100/index.jsp. The information that is conveyed by the current uniform system is INCORRECT. This is an encyclopedia, and it should contain FACTS not the closest things because it's free and easier, when we can have a TRUE depiction. We can have these images. That's not the issue. We're able to have them on this encyclopedia. What, do you want us to sacrifice integrity and truth just to swap one template on the image page for another? No. That is wrong. This is an encyclopedia, and it should contain information. True information. The first poster mentioned team colors. This isn't team colors. This is a team uniform. It contains logos, insignias, and print names which are inherently copyrighted. Therefore, the claim is false. There is no free replacement possible. This is exactly the same as the football helmets, which no one here seems to have a problem with. If the football helmets stay, this stays. The uniforms are important information, and therefore should be depicted prominantly, as we have done. If anything, the soccer images should be changed. They are incorrect, and false information does not belong in an encyclopedia. -- Silent Wind of Doom 17:12, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Delete, as this can be replaced by a free image. – Quadell ( talk) ( random) 14:51, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Follow-up Thanks for the references, Silent Wind (I hope you don't mind, I piped the Chicago Fire link so it goes straight to the article). I've looked at a couple other such cases now and this seems determinitive to me: the baseball articles are of markedly superior encyclopedic quality to the soccer articles in this regard. Compare: Baseball: Baltimore Orioles / what uniforms actually look like; Soccer: D.C. United / what uniforms actually look like. Claims that the image presently in question can be replaced by a free one ignore what should be the obvious fact: the image proposed for deletion here cannot be replaced by a free image of comparable quality and accuracy while maintaining encyclopedic consistency across this important series of articles. The nomination should be withdrawn forthwith and the nominator, if he wishes to pursue this matter, should do so in good faith by entering into direct dialogue with the project.— DCGeist 18:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- KeepThe baseball images really do look much better than the soccer ones--more importantly they're much more accurate. Just as importantly, their use seems to be in the best spirit of fair use. And keeping a consistent look for related entries is a theme brought up time and again around Wikipedia--I don't understand how Mr. Badali singled out this one image and how anyone thinks that deleting it improves the encyclopedia. DocKino 21:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- I hope you all realize..." that "the unfree image looks incredibly better" is not a valid argument to use non-free material. -- Abu badali ( talk) 03:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yup, we sure do That's why we emphasize and demonstrate the far superior accuracy of the images used by the baseball project.— DCGeist 04:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Not to mention the fact that the logos and print names visible on the uniforms are copyrighted, and therefore the images are NOT REPLACABLE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Silent Wind of Doom ( talk • contribs) 04:42, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
- Keep Drawings created by editors, which is what the deletionists are advocating, are blatant original research and thus they are a violation of wikipedia policy. And as noted directly above, inclusion of the logos would be problematic, and thus the copyrighted images are not replaceable. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 08:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Also, the often-amateurish appearance of home-grown drawings does nothing to enhance wikipedia's credibility. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 08:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- The cute little home-grown illustration of soccer uniforms cited by someone above (including their cute little shorts) contains no citation, that I can see, of the source of those colors/colours. Thus, it appears to be original research based on what somebody "thinks" those colors/colours are. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 08:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Image deleted. Image use fails WP:NFCC #1. Also, the copyright holder is not known for sure. - Nv8200p talk 03:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the file's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
This is an outrage. This image was deleted on false premises, and the fact that Nv8200p seems to have an extensive past relationship with Abu badali, Videmus Omnia, and Quadell seems dubious. They seem to have formed for themselves a small team that are fighting to have every non-free image stricken from the encyclopedia. Jeez, the word "seem" was used a lot there.
Anyway, this whole affair is a huge misuse of power, and Nv8200p has completely push aside the voices, opinions, and, most of all, proof set forth by the people, just so he could push his own agenda. We need to do something about this, and, most of all, get this image restored, and keep our other non-free images safe. I was told to take this up somewhere else, but I unfortunately do not have the knowledge of the Wikipedia beurocracy (or a memory of how to spell beurocracy), so I ask for help on how to take this where it needs to be taken, and, of course, as depiction of the uniforms is important to the project, I ask for your support. If this stands, all our uniform images will disappear.-- Silent Wind of Doom 18:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
If anyone is interested, there is a very long discussion going on over at Talk:Josh Gibson about the best way to explain the home run total of Negro League Hall of Famer Josh Gibson. — Wknight94 ( talk) 10:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Just the baseball seasons are oversized by themselves, now; I've proposed re-splitting either by team, or by decade: please comment there. Alai 06:40, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Anyone besides me suddenly having trouble with the flag icons displaying on the team roster pages? -- Sanfranman59 07:30, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
An editor has brought up concerns at Talk:Cardinals-Cubs_rivalry#Another_break_in_the_action about the encyclopedic relevance of rivals canceling game after a tragedy. To my knowledge, nothing like the deaths of two players in the middle of a rivalry series has ever happened to two teams before. However I would like to get a broader input from other baseball folks for the sake of perspective. Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated. Agne Cheese/ Wine 19:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
User:StormXor and I worked together to come up with a pretty good colorization scheme in the presence of heavy editorial activity in the weeks immediately after 756 at
Barry Bonds. Now, there is a move afoot to uncolorize Bonds. Opinions are needed at
Talk:Barry_Bonds#stats_section_use_of_color. We are debating the use of colors in stats tables with respect to
WP:WAI section 4 and the current
Barry Bonds page versus the
former color scheme. The debate will probably shape color scheme usage throughout baseball bio article stat sections so be thoughtful. You may want to look at other pages that have colorized stat sections such as
Roger Clemens,
Hector Lopez, and
Chris Young (pitcher). Keep in mind what
Bonds before colorization looked like. If you know any other editors who you think may have strong opinions one way or another please ask them to comment as well.--
TonyTheTiger (
t/
c/
bio/
tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM)
18:03, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
the teams' current season's payroll should be a part of Template:MLB infobox, with a link provided to List of Major League Baseball teams by payroll for further reference. payroll is extremely significant, as well as a potential indicator of so many things such as revenue, fan support, ability to acquire/keep players/coaches, and possibly potential to win. here's what i'm proposing, followed by an example.... Riphamilton 18:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
{{{name}}} Established [[{{{established}}} in baseball|{{{established}}}]] {{{misc}}} | |||
| |||
Major league affiliations | |||
| |||
Current uniform | |||
| |||
Name | |||
| |||
| |||
Other nicknames | |||
| |||
Ballpark | |||
| |||
Major league titles | |||
World Series titles {{{WS}}} | {{{WORLD CHAMPIONS}}} | ||
{{{LEAGUE}}} Pennants {{{P}}} | {{{PENNANTS}}} | ||
{{{misc1}}} | {{{OTHER PENNANTS}}} | ||
{{{DIV}}} Division titles {{{DV}}} | {{{Division Champs}}} | ||
{{{misc5}}} | {{{OTHER DIV CHAMPS}}} | ||
Wild card berths {{{WC}}} | {{{Wild Card}}} | ||
{{{misc6}}} | |||
2007 Payroll: ${{{payroll}}}M ({{{MLB payroll rank}}}MLB, {{{League payroll rank}}}{{{league}}} | |||
Owner(s): {{{owner}}} | |||
Manager: {{{manager}}} | |||
General Manager: {{{gm}}} |
Tampa Bay Devil Rays | |
---|---|
![]() | |
| |
Major league affiliations | |
| |
Retired numbers | 12, 42 |
Name | |
| |
Other nicknames | |
| |
Ballpark | |
| |
Major league titles | |
World Series titles (0) | none |
AL Pennants (0) | none |
Division titles (0) | none |
Wild card berths (0) | None |
Front office | |
Principal owner(s) | 2007 Payroll: $24.1M (30th MLB, 14th AL) |
General manager | Andrew Friedman |
Manager | Joe Maddon |
(i just replaced the owner with payroll for the example. it will fit on one line.)
This user, who had nominated numerous baseball-related articles for deletion over the last several months, was just indefblocked for abusive sockpuppetry. As such, it may be appropriate to revisit some of these deletions. - Hit bull, win steak (Moo!) 19:50, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I want to substitute all the game logs into the articles, instead as using them as a transcluded templates into the article. This way the game logs can be edited without going into a template, and you can simply click edit on the section entitled game log, and you will edit the game log. I think this is better, it's going to take the same amount of time for the page to load. And also, if you are watching the page, when someone makes an edit to the game log it will show up on your watchlist, and in the history of the page being edited. I can't really see any disagreement with this, but I posted this to see if anyone else had any other opinions? -- Borgarde talk 07:02, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
(Outdent) Actually, and JJ can attest to this, we had a discussion this past weekend. I'm changing my opinion slightly, but here are my two proposals toward game logs:
1) Transclude them in the articles until you complete them, and then move them to the template namespace. It's a perhaps personal thought, but I fear either A; some admin would wonder "why do we need this category flooded?" and perhaps do subsequent deletions and thousands of edits would be out the door or (erroniously) call them "copyvios." Erroniously (sic)? WTF mate? I say this because last month I talked with Baseball-Reference.com, and game logs are perfectly allowable and content contained within them cannot be copyrighted, meaning we are in the clear here.
However, my other idea is:
2) Work on them on a Word document or something (whichever works for you) and complete them there, then just cut-and-paste them into a template. I'd probably still transclude at first then put them in a template, though. If the template got deleted (wrongfully so, I'd hope they'd go through TfD first), then we'd, once again, unless you saved your document, we'd have hours of lost work.
Now, if this is sticking to the 2007 articles or any game logs that have already been completed, there is no change that should be made. But for upcoming game logs, I'd just thought I'd throw out my take on this. Soxrock 01:37, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I was editing the New York Yankees all-time roster but took a few days off, when I returned a user named Fabrictramp had edited the page about 30 times in a row, adding a hundreds of red links for non-notable players who never played a game for the team, do we really need to name a bunch of useless players and links when all it does is make the article look like sh... crap? TheNextOne 21:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Notability comes in many varieties. Charles Victory Faust was better known as a good-luck charm than anything. There was a mediocre Orioles pitcher during their Weaver dynasty (I think it was Eddie Watt) who was supposedly kept around mainly because he was good at throwing batting practice. But regardless of whether you're Casey Stengel or Casey Wise, just playing in a major league game is a notable achievement that separates them from (most of) us. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 23:42, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Should we start creating them yet? The season's just about over and I think it's time we get a move on that. - jj137 Talk • Contribs 21:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I've put Seattle Mariners up for peer review here, as I've made substantial improvements to it and think it's nearing GA-quality. Any input from project members would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! - Elmer Clark 05:16, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I propose that on the main project page, the suggested infobox template for a minor league team be changed from Template:Minor league team to Template:MiLB infobox. The first one (currently suggested as the temp to use for minor league teams) is only used on a handfull of articles. The second one is used on the majority of articles.
I thought that I could just make this change myself, but I didn't want to be to BOLD. - NatureBoyMD 00:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Template:Minor league team has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — NatureBoyMD 22:43, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I have found it to be extremely annoying that Wikipedia does not have an article (and yearly series of articles) on the postseason as a whole, as we do with the other major sports. Has anyone considered creating such, or has a consensus been reached against it? The way, the truth, and the light 07:36, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Since it looks like the Wikipedia:Notabilty (sports) guidelines are not going to be adopted by the masses, does anyone have any interest in adopting the baseball guidelines from that proposal to replace the WP:Baseball notability guidelines? I think the newer ones are somewhat more clear than the vague wording on the current project guidelines. Spanneraol 14:33, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Template:Baseball team has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — NatureBoyMD 23:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Now that the Chicago Cubs all-time roster has survived an AfD debate, it seems time to revisit the standards for the all time rosters.
It seems to me that the goals for having standards are two-fold. One is that it's nice to have each of the all-time rosters looking a bit uniform. The other is that it's nice to know what information should be included (to make the rosters both useful and more than a duplication of the categories), and nice to know what information is just clutter.
The current standard is to include every player who played in at least one regular season game. Also listed are the years the player played, main position (P, C, IF, OF, DH, PH, PR) played for that team, and whether the player is in the Hall of Fame. (Hall of Fame info has not yet been added to most of the rosters). So far most of the rosters have been formatted in 3 columns (using <div style="-moz-column-count:3; column-count:3;"> to make the column breaks automatic), but I can't honestly recall if this is standard. Also, links to the other MLB all-time rosters (using the {{MLB All-Time rosters}} template) and the team link template (in this case {{Chicago Cubs}}) have been added to most, if not all, of the all-time rosters.
A couple of editors have suggested that flags to show the country of origin of each player would be a welcome addition to the rosters (such as on Boston Red Sox all-time roster). Other editors have expressed a dissatisfaction with the information included, but haven't offered suggestions for improvement. I think a more complete, standard wording for the introduction would also be useful.
So I'm proposing a two-fold discussion. Part 1 is what information should and should not be included in the all-time rosters. Part 2 is how best to format that information. Thoughts?-- Fabrictramp 21:59, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
While looking through the requested articles, I came across "Suspended game" and decided to give it a go. However, I'm not at all sure that what I came up with cuts it. The article I wrote can be found here. Is this good enough to start the article? Basically all I did was give what the rule book says, and since one of the links (both, actually) are just to the rule book, I wonder if there's even a point to it. If it is good enough, is there anything more that needs to be done to stress that what is written is taken verbatim from the rule book? After the article is created, then it can be improved with the history of the suspended game or notable suspended games, all I'm looking to do is get the ball rolling. I'm just not sure if this is good enough, and I don't want to bother if it's just going to be deleted. Thanks, faithless (speak) 07:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Why was this article moved from West Tenn Diamond Jaxx? Minorleaguebaseball.com, the Seattle Mariners' website, and the Diamond Jaxx' own official website all list the team name as "West Tenn." Wikipedia is intentionally being wrong...why exactly? 69.7.37.69 03:26, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Template:Baseball Coach has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — NatureBoyMD 21:53, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Template:Aus Baseball Club infobox has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — NatureBoyMD 21:58, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Template:Mlbretiredtest has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — NatureBoyMD 22:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Template:Baseball Links has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — NatureBoyMD 17:37, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
The Johnson City Cardinals page has recently been rescued from an ill-timed deletion. THere were some WP:BLP issuies, but those have been removed. The remaining portion is just a stub now, and could use some attention from editors with experience in improving minor league team articles. Thanks. - BillCJ 18:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I am making a proposal to move all baseball seasonal articles (for example, 2006 Cincinnati Reds season) to not include the word "season" (it would then read simply "2006 Cincinnati Reds"). I feel it is very self-explanatory and redundant. If you think this would take too long to move all of these, I would like to comment that at the B-R Bullpen they have a seasonal article for every season (where as here we only have maybe ⅔) and Soxrock was able to move all of them to their appropriate name there within only a few days. (I'm not saying he should have to move them all again, but I'm just making a point that it wouldn't take that long if we do it efficiently.) Thanks. jj137 ( Talk) 18:15, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Image:NLE-NYM-Logo.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 10:34, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_with_numbers_retired_from_two_or_more_teams"
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I've added MLB All-time Managerial wins which has the top 10 career winners for a manager according to MLB.com. I've added links to the list to all of the listed managers. As there are still 3 managers active on the list, if anyone sees that Bobby Cox (ATL), Tony LaRussa (STL), or Joe Torre (NYY) have a win, please try to remember. Thanks!
If anyone would like to add anything, like loses, win pct., or numbers 11 and beyond, feel free. It's not limited to 10. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mghabmw ( talk • contribs).
I notice above that there was a big movement to shriink the succession boexes. I have noticed that some of them were done incorrectly. I have noticed that both the Sandy Koufax and Barry Bonds succession boxes were not closed correctly. I do not know how widespread this problem is but I had to make the following edits to correct these problems: [1] and [2].
Since the problem edits [3] [4] were by different individuals, I do not know how widespread the problem is. Please check tht you have closed all your succession boxes properly. -- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 16:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
You may want to visit Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/All-Star Final Vote to participate in the discussion of our latest featured content candidate.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 19:51, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I created a new template for linking to stats sites. It combines the previous ones into a single template and allows for automated linking to the correct page if the page id is not specified. The template is in my sandbox presently, and I have made examples on Roy Halladay and Chris Young (outfielder). For Halladay, the automatic linking work just fine for espn and baseball-reference and almost perfectly for mlb, but for Young it does not work because of the (outfielder) appendage in the page name. When appendages like that are added (or other name oddities), specifying the page id is necessary like it is in the current templates. The styling is modeled after the external links template used in city articles. I can add other sites to the template if desired. -- Basar ( talk · contribs) 05:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I have "activated" this template at {{ Baseballstats}}. I have made it backwards compatible with {{ Baseball-reference}} and would like to redirect that template to the new one soon. -- Basar ( talk · contribs) 07:49, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
There is a bug with this when it comes to retired players. ESPN does not have pages for them. So I want you to only do this for current players. Soxrock ( talk · contribs) 18:06, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, you're right about the id from the baseball-reference.com template being transcluded into the new template. My bad there. But now that's been settled, take a look a few things that will happen if and when we redirect the templates:
In short, I think that there are too many problems with the template in its current form and too little immediate gain to justify a redirect from {{ Baseball-reference}}. And considering the unwanted negative light that the previous EL arguments shone on this project, making changes with several glaring flaws would be a very bad idea.
On a more positive note, I still think that the template has tons of inherent value, but to implement with as little friction as possible would require one of two approaches:
I hope this makes some sense to people... Caknuck 07:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
These seem somewhat redundant. There's very little different information between the three pages. I have a feeling we could easily merge them all into one page:
500 home run club
600 home run club
700 home run club
What does everyone else think?
Bjewiki
00:55, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I am looking for some feedback on an evergrowing template. Do you think that defunct leagues should be split off from Template:Professional Baseball as a separate template or do you think this is a better navigational aid with a unified template?-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 03:24, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Jaranda ( talk · contribs) has taken it upon himself to redirect the articles 2006 Kansas City Royals season and 1980 Tampa Bay Buccaneers season. I've saved them and put the underconstruction tag on them, but enough has been said, he's going with the non-notable card. Just an FYI that he is trying to redirect them, and your help is needed. Please say yes to these. Soxrock 23:56, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I plan to enlarge those, but, sorry, but I can't complete 2000 articles in one day, sorry :(. Feel free to help though, I can't do it alone. Thanks for all your support Soxrock 01:29, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
The baseball-reference references are there because that's my primary source. You know, citing sources. Either way, I'll add other sources as I use them Soxrock 01:31, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Again the best thing to do in my opinion is to create the team pages by decade, and convert it into prose, not a bunch of copyrighted, crufty lists. Maybe we could get these decade articles into WP:FAs. I'm down for that. Jaranda wat's sup 04:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
It's a baseball guide, that doesn't mean much in my opinion. Also discussing this here is a conflect of inflect in a way for almost all of us, including me. Everyone here specializes in sports articles, we need people that doesn't edit this stuff to decide a notabilty guideline, for both seasons and players. You guys get what I mean. We can't agrue our beliefs to death. We need neutral people. Jaranda wat's sup 06:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, Baseball Bugs, for noticing my point. Look, New York Yankees is such a huge article that it's hard for my computer to open the page successfully. But if I went to 2000 New York Yankees season (the year they last won the World Series) then I would be able to find everything I want to know about that season. I wouldn't have to scramble throughout the main article to try to find stuff about one season. It is buried in the article, hard to find it, and is in much less detail than would be in the season article. The season articles are a great way to remove some information from the bloated primary articles so we can describe the whole season in complete detail, rather than just saying that they made the playoffs and were eliminated in the ALCS. I can't believe you're actually against this. And it's not just baseball. Football, hockey, and basketball have them also. Hundreds and hundreds of users work on these articles. You're gonna have to convince all of them, Jaranda, that these articles aren't notable. So good luck trying to convince about 500 other people. Ksy92003 (talk) 06:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
When it comes to copyright issues, there is no "hey, can you wait" or "we will leave this alone for now." We get emails daily asking us to take stuff down from Wikipedia because of editors, such as yourselves, wishing to copy text and just slap it on Wikipedia. I will also be either deleting or redirecting these articles myself and I have an army will who join me. Like it or not, you're on our site, you need to follow our policy on copyright. Period. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 07:16, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
If you just delete every article for 'copyright concerns' then you are deleting a lot of things that are NOT copyrighted. -- Borgarde talk 08:22, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Please stop. I will be working hard today and for the next week or two. I will get these to look better and lot like their ripped from a site. Jeez, I guess there is no deadline, but this will still take a while, and redirecting them will only make it harder for me to get to the articles. Don't worry, I'll work very hard. I have to. Soxrock 11:41, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
What is the copyright issue if you are reproducing stats? The goal would be not to mirror their layout, but they do not own the statistics regarding the team. If they hit collectively 28 home runs, and the site says it, and you say it, its not copyright. I would reccomend changing layouts if that is the issue, but you cannot copyright basic facts. --
SevenOfDiamonds
12:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Exactly Ksy. Baseball-reference does not own the stats. They do not own anything other than the site. And we're always said to have to have "verifable sources". Well, their sourced, but somehow they violate copyright? Most of the articles that were redirected did not even have stats and therefore did not violate copyright in some of your opinions. Not being copyvio, you redirected without consensus. I have reverted all the redirects that I have seen, and PLEASE help work on them. Why redirect when you can help them. You're doing the opposite of what you should do. Lets see, what should I do?
So please help us work on them. Soxrock 13:39, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, you do have a point. I don't like the redirect, but, hell, I won't be working on the Cardinals for some time. I'll be busy with the more recent teams (teams since 1961) and then I'll start going into the deeper histories. But do not redirect any Yankee articles at least, those do have some content. And, besides, I plan to add the construction tag to all the articles. So I still would prefer construction over redirect Soxrock 15:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Look I'm sorry I called them nn, but still copyright trumps policy, and the construction tag won't do anything Jaranda wat's sup 17:02, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Nobody can own mere numbers. Anybody can watch a game and keep track of statistics themselves. It's called "score keeping," something I do. It's when you watch all the games and keep track of what happens yourself. If I watched a game and saw a player hit a home run, his first of the season, would I have to get permission from MLB or anybody to use that? No, because it happened, I saw it happened. Would I own the stats because I saw it happen? No.
And Jaranda, I'm getting ready to send you a comment on your talk page. Please reply there. Ksy92003 (talk) 17:38, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Jaranda, keep in mind this. While the stats may be licensed to ESPN and B-R, WE STILL CITE THEM IN THE ARTICLES! That's good enough in my mind. We aren't stealing them if we cite our sources Soxrock 17:40, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. I am only using a portion. I'm not using all of them. Case proven Soxrock 17:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
So I probably reverted something somewhere without noticing this. Just don't overwork yourself when you're not sure if it's really going to be worth it in the end. Pilotguy 19:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Recently, an editor zapped most of the documentation from the New York Yankees page that documented how old the nickname "Yankees" is, i.e. it's about as old as "Highlanders", despite historical revisionist attempts to make it seem like "Yankees" appeared overnight in 1913. Presumably the reason the editor did that was to make the article a bit less wordy. In light of that, I'm thinking it might be useful to make a separate article about the origins of the team nicknames, and reduce the minutia on that subject in the individual team articles. Before I start that, I would like to know (1) is there already such an article; and (2) does it make sense to write such an article? I have plenty of citations for the info, FYI. Baseball Bugs 14:27, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
You know, I like the idea. Because I've read the Yankee name was very popular even when they were officially the Highlanders Soxrock 14:56, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
(I originally posted this to KSY's page)
Okay, let's see. Firstly, I'm not involved in this issue, so I think you can accept my opinion as unbiased.
Secondly: I'm really, really sorry, but numbers can be owned. It's all about format and context. An mp3 is just numbers, but try telling that to the RIAA. Those numbers, in that format, in that context, do belong to MLB.com, and we would need their permission to reproduce them. And we do not have that permission.
Thirdly, having an article on an individual season for an individual baseball team... that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But they can't just be stat dumps, or the copyright lawyers will have our heads. Do it in prose - example, 1985 Kansas City Royals season. Talk about the season. You can construct the article in your userspace, and move it out into articlespace when it's ready.
Until such time as you have an article about an individual team's individual season, links to that season will have to be redirects to the article about the team itself.
Okay? DS 17:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
The presentation style of the numbers, i.e the order in which each stat tends to be presented, tends to follow the implicit guidelines in the Scoring Rules section of the baseball rules. It gives a list of what stats the official scorer is supposed to collect, and there is an implied "order" to those stats. I would say that's why they are often presented in a similar way in different sources. Baseball Bugs 17:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, let me say this. I took only a portion from B-R. I didn't take all the stats. And, still being sourced, I don't see copyright issues. Soxrock 17:35, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
You guys seem to be missing my point, the stats can be improved, but frankly they are not my main problem her, but the bot generated content in other words needs to go until such time the articles are written in real prose. As long as you guys don't take their statistics and dump them on wikipedia, and instead use a small portion of them (as was shown in an example above) it should be fine, at least from my point of view. The major problem I see is the rambotlike generated content. The site that we are generating the information from is not free. So just make sure to do the writing from more then one source, and use prose. The solution here has already been mentioned, but I'll mention it again. Redirect all of the season articles not in prose. This is not deleting them, the content is still in the history for you to go back in your own time and revert it if you like (for the citations). Just go one by one, write one in prose with sources, ect, move on to the next one. —— Eagle101 Need help? 17:42, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Re-directing won't do anything. If you re-direct the pages, then you're removing the ability of anybody who would want to edit them. It would be best to just leave them as their own article and wait for somebody to come and expand it. Ksy92003 (talk) 17:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
First of all, the sites in question don't even have statistics. And for the last time, we aren't violating copyright... We aren't claiming the stats as our own. And one thing I pointed out is that this all started out because Jaranda thought the articles weren't notable. He has moved on to his 4th argument after we countered the first three. He just makes up random arguments because he keeps being proven wrong.
But once again, We aren't claiming the stats as our own. Ksy92003 (talk) 18:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
What generated content? In the stubs the prose? Soxrock 18:08, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Uh, that's just looking at my source, B-R, and putting in the simple information. It needs to be remembered that they are underconstruction Soxrock 18:11, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. It's self-prose, not plagarism Soxrock 18:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
That may be overblown. Just add construction, it's the best idea Soxrock 18:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Eagle101, where did you think those "first 3 sentences that are the same on each article" came from? I think you just accused us of copyrighting just because some words are the same. And again, I was the person to add those sentences originally when I added them to 2007 Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim season, 2007 Oakland Athletics season, and 2007 Chicago Cubs season. I added those sentences myself and didn't get them from anybody else. So I am hurt that you accused me of doing something like that. Ksy92003 (talk) 18:27, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
The first three sentences doesn't violate copyright Jaranda wat's sup 18:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
It's alright. But I don't see how it's a copyright violation if I wrote those sentences myself, using only my brain. I don't see how it's still a violation if I created them all by myself. Ksy92003 (talk) 18:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
That would be here. This is the page of the terms of the website you took the data and formatting from. Specifically, I want you to read this. 6. Site Content. You may not frame, capture, harvest, or collect any part of the Site or Content without SRI's advance written consent. SRI may make changes to the Content, this Site, or the products or services made available in connection with this Site at any time, with or without notice, and makes no commitment to update any of these items. Despite any efforts of SRI to provide accurate information in the Content, errors may occur. Before acting on any information appearing on the Site, you should verify its accuracy. That means we cannot copy their content, especially in their format, What yall have done is copied in his format and we have to delete because his terms forbid it. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 19:10, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Ok. I have tried to contact them. What is their official e-mail, because I keep getting failure responses. And thanks for clueing us in on that. Soxrock 19:23, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I have gotten through. I am currently awaiting a 3rd response from baseball-reference. I've got a few questions to ask for some of you.
Thank you Soxrock 20:12, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Rule 10.02 states that the official scorer is to gather certain records for each player in each game. The batting figures, for example: AB, R, H, RBI, 2B, 3B, HR, TB, SB, SH, SF, BBB, IBB, HBP, INT/OBS, SO. Additionally, the following stats are to be calculated from the tabulated records: BA, SA, OBP. Interestingly, CS and GIDP are not required, although they are typically captured at the major league level. The sequence above does not totally square with either MLB or Baseball-Reference, but it's similar. [6] [7] Baseball Bugs 18:56, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Looking at the articles for each of the baseball positions (like Shortstop, First baseman, Right fielder, etc) you see several lists down at the bottom. I can see reason for including the hall of famers at a position but is it really necessary to have the very subjective and POV listing of "notable" current players. Does that really add any value to the article? Agne Cheese/ Wine 20:00, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
The above article and a similar article for each year up to 2007 exist and I don't see the notability of it. Can someone with a bot tag each article for deletion? DandyDan2007 21:34, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to speedy it if anyone doesn't object. This is a little too much, and a list of the managers is best suited for the season article Jaranda wat's sup 23:12, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Ok, you wanted this. Here is my conversation with Sean Forman, operator of Baseball-Reference.com
of your stats for our seasonal pages? I only ask because I read the Terms and Conditions. Any response will be appreciated
culling of the stats on all pages, or just a citation of stats from a handful of pages?
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1921_New_York_Yankees_season). The plan is to use the prominent stats, you know, Games played, At-bats, HR, RBI... but not to use the in-depth stats (like OBP). In the external links, we have you cited for the in-depth stats. As for the usage, we'll have you cited on every page that we have stats from your site on (that's every single individual season page we create, which will be for all 30 teams). If you cannot grant it for us on all those pages (roughly 2500 pages with a portion your stats and citation), then we'll try to find a reduced way to use them, if you allow. Thanks for the response
your pages. Why do you want to take so much time entering that data when there are much better formatted sources for statistical data available? Why not focus on the narrative for the team rather than factual data that is available elsewhere? I'm assuming the gamelogs are also being transcribed from my site or retrosheet's.
Wikipedia takes a lot of traffic from my site and due to the use of the nofollow tag, I get only some benefit from the use of the data and the links to my site. Would it be possible to have my site white-listed and have the nofollow tags taken off of links to my site?
I'm not saying no out of hand, but I feel like Wikipedia does not compensate the content holders for the data they provide. The use of the nofollow really galls me.
Let me explain the nofollow tag. Search engines rank sites on the basis of the sites that link to them. Adding a nofollow tag (do a view source on a page with my site and you'll see a in the code for links to any external site) tells the search engine to ignore this link. I have thousands of links from wikipedia and there is some benefit to that, but my standing in the search engines is hampered because Wikipedia is a giant link juice sink. It benefits from everyone's link to it, but does not return the favor to sites it links. It is very selfish behaviour. I would appreciate if you would ask someone in charge that you are going to use data from my site on 1000's of pages and will be linking to it, but would like to remove the nofollow from those links. If this really is such a great project, that should be no problem. I'm not a spammer.
The other issue is that reference.com and answers.com and others can take a dump of wikipedia database strip out the external links and then make money off of my content.
That is all well and good, but what happens when I go out of business? You say you enjoy the site, but your work actively undermines its health. You can say "C'est la vie", but those are the facts.
I can't stop you from using the data and I appreciate the link, but I feel that these actions essentially only benefit Wikipedia, and damage me.
we will reduce the number of visitors on your site, which will lead to fewer ads, which in turn will lead to less money, makinf ir harder to keep your site on. I see your concern now.
I'll continue to find white-listing. I mean, I hope that you say yes, but, then again, I would hope that saying that wouldn't hurt your website and your life at the same time. Thanks for your response
ahead of me on searches for ballplayers, it is not outside the realm of possiblity that I would be forced to quit working on the site full-time as I've been doing for a year and go back to my day job. I have a hard time encouraging that to happen.
I know that the data is in the public domain and can't be copyrighted, but I just wish WP was a little better at compensating their sources.
I'm not trying to hurt people's lives or sites. And seeing how Wikipedia is always ahead of your site on searches (sometimes I don't even see you), I see why you wouldn't be happy about the nofollow tags. I feel sorry that they apply, because it affects what both of us do, because if there were no nofollow tags, you might be able to say yes and not be affected. I feel sorry for that. Eitherway, I'll look into white-listing, it might be fair compensation for you. Of course, there is a dispute over at Wikipedia about how the numbers are copyrighted or not. It appeared we might be able to use stats until I saw your terms of use, which is why I'm talking with you. Thanks for the reply
entering data, but I would be opposed to machine-aided copying of large numbers of pages.
paper or something? And, by machine-aided copying, do you mean using something like a robot to do so quicker? Thanks
My concern is in you using a robot to grab the data and auto-enter it into wikipedia. You should also keep in mind that occasionally the data does change as corrections are found.
too-similar and it would look crappy anyway, so it will be hand entering. It takes at least 20 minutes to add stats to a page, and we do not use robots for adding stats, it would create a huge mess. Thanks for your permission to use the stats and your site will be linked on every page. I'll tell other users. Thank you so much, and, again, they will be hand entered, not machine-aided copying. I don't even know how to use a robot on that site
In other words, it is OK to use the stats from baseball-reference. Soxrock 21:39, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I guess use them, no objections, but when someone wants to create a properly sourced prose article and remove the stats. Let them, we should be using them when there is no prose to back it up. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 21:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, don't forget this:
We only include a portion of his stats. There is still much more at his site than we will include here. I talked to him and expressed concern for him, but, you really can't forget that he has much more valuable information at his site. It hopefully won't take a hit and it'll still be good on this site. But don't think I wasn't concerned for him. In fact, remember the " Oh, so your concern is that, by using a portion of your stats on our pages, we will reduce the number of visitors on your site, which will lead to fewer ads, which in turn will lead to less money, making it harder to keep your site on. I see your concern now.". So I did address this carefully. Either way, with it still being cited, and the fact that a lot of people check it daily, regardless of whether they see it here or not, I don't expect it to be affected. And, being an EL, a general reader may think that it will include additional info on the subject. Eitherway, thanks for your opinion Wknights. I want stat tables, but not at someone else's expense Soxrock 23:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I am also taking to Mr. Forman now; while the information is public domain according to him, he feels that we are undercutting him and others by posting the tables. Plus, as Mr Forman said, his stuff changes a lot and if yall are not here, the information won't be correct here. Don't worry about the "nofollow" stuff, that is a technical issue that cannot be sorted out by us. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:19, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Instead of a whole table of all stats, would something like 2007 Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim season's stats be better, where we just show the team leaders (or possibly a top-3) in select categories? That way, we aren't showing all the stats and the season articles wouldn't be a substitute for whole websites like Baseball-reference, yet we still show the important starts. Ksy92003 (talk) 03:34, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Stat | Player | Total | Stat | Player | Total |
---|
That way, you have two columns. But that's the way I think it's done. I'm not sure. However, the section headings will need to be adjusted to something like simply "statistics" Soxrock 17:00, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I added another heading at the top for the empty spacer column. But now, is there any way we can somehow shade out the empty column? Right now, it looks kinda weird a bit. Also, I expanded the table so it isn't all scrunched up. Ksy92003 (talk) 17:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed on many articles that images of regular baseball cards for a player's article are promptly deleted, but baseball cards that have autographs are usually left up on the player's article. Do these cards qualify as fair use, or are people intentionally mislabeling the images as fair use to avoid instant deletion?
If the cards aren't allowed, then what images are allowed as fair use? There are a lot of player articles, especially retired players, completely devoid of images, Any help would be much appreciated. SashaNein 14:58, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Baseball cards aren't fair use as they are strongly copyrighted by topps or the other brands. Cards that are pre-1923 are in Public Domain, and I heard that Goudey cards from the 1930s are also in public domain as the copyright wasn't renewed. As for the others, they are only fair use if the article talks about the card in detail. Not the player. Jaranda wat's sup 16:10, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Should articles about milestones, such as 40-40 club and the like, be merged into one article, perhaps baseball career milestones, with redirects? If nothing else, this will cut down on AfD requests like the current 40-40-40 club action. davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 23:59, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know why someone Copy/Paste moved the Closer article from Closer (baseball) to Closing pitcher? And then another person moved Talk:Closer (baseball) to Talk:Closing Pitcher instead of Talk:Closing pitcher, so the whole thing is a bit of a mess. I would have tried to get it all set right but I don't know what the consensus on the article title is. -- Rabbethan 03:49, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Currently, the list of HOF-inducted players within team articles includes mention of almost any HOF-inducted players who happened to have once played for that team, regardless of number of seasons played. For instance, Hank Greenberg is listed as a HOF Pittsburgh Pirate despite having played only one season for the Pirates (his last season, in 1947). He was actually inducted as a Detroit Tiger, and is listed (correctly) in the Tigers' article as a Tigers' HOFer.
Shouldn't a respective team's listed HOF players include mention of only those players who were inducted specifically for that particular team?
-- J.R. Hercules 03:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
No - because in many cases, they were just as representative for other teams. Sparky Anderson was inducted as a Red but managed twice as many years in Detroit. Gary Carter was inducted as an Expo but preferred to be remembered as a Met.
Pascack
20:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
That is your opinion that he is best known for his time with the Mets, and you only think that because you are a Mets fan.-- Yankees10 21:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Hello everyone, #wikipedia-baseball has now launched on IRC. If you would like to join the conversation, please feel free to visit the channel. -- JA10 Talk • Contribs 03:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
FYI, an AfD has been posted for one of the Indians' bullpen catchers, Dan Williams. I thought it might be of interest to people here. Here's the link in case you'd like to comment. -- Sanfranman59 16:55, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Portal:Baseball has lots of redlinked features. It is fallen into disrepair. If anyone interested in baseball wants to work with it, it really needs work. It is setup to run everything weekly right now ... that could be changed to monthly if there isn't enough interest to add content every week. -- B 22:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
You may be interested in the following discussion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Barry Bonds home run watch.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 13:07, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Just so you know, I've enlarged the standings templates to fit all the teams in one line to conform to more computers. I operate off two computers that are completely different in how they have standings load up, and so, for mine and all others who had wide computers, I have modified it to fit better. No harm done in my mind. Soxrock 00:05, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I expanded this article significantly with as much useful info that I could find. Maybe we could extend it to a WP:FA. If anyone want to copyedit or add useful info (especially anything on his after-playing days), we should. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 05:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Long time baseball fan, first time poster here. I'm inclined to think that players from the Negro League are notable, since a good argument could be made that they reached the highest level available before Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier. There doesn't seem to be any guideline on that according to this project, though. So, what's the conventional wisdom around here on the topic? Thanks! :-) Sidatio 02:40, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
If we decide to open up a whole new can of worms by allowing minor league players into wikipedia, the repercussions will be felt across the other minor league sports pages as well. Say we allow minor league baseball players in wikipedia. Then, you have to go put every NBA D-League guy in. Then every CHL, AHL and all the other plethora of hockey players in. Every player in a minor football and cricket league goes in too. Just because wikipedia has the server space doesn't mean we have to fill it up, and the argument that we should fill it up seems illogical. Remember the first pillar of wikipedia: Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. It isn't appropriate to have an article about every man and woman who has ever played any sport at a near profession level. While the Kinston Indians may have a better level of talent than the Netanya Tigers, they aren't as well known in their respective countries. Remember also, that wikipedia isn't American. It's the English wikipedia. Lots of countries around the world speak the language, and thus, we can't be USA-centric. I may be making an assumption about everyone's nationality, but I do know that we Americans are quite passionate about our sports teams. And that passion my confict with wikipedia policy on occasion. WP:ILIKEIT is never a proper reason for an article. It isn't encyclopedic. It isn't wikipedia. Ravenmasterq 21:49, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Spanneraol, did you do any research on D-league teams before you said that? I did. Only 3 teams (the Colorado 14ers, the Albuquerque Thunderbirds, and the Los Angeles D-Fenders) have roster lists, and of those, only 12 of the total 28 players are listed. Some of them aren't even directed to the right page, and I will fix and delete some of those pages as I find the time. I wonder why your definition of 'most' is less than half of one fifth. Exhibiting ignorance towards WP:CRICKET won't help your cause either. In fact, Baseball could learn a few things from them. They have [10] featured articles to our [11]. Also, they have much clearer notability guidelines to our vagueness:
"Any player who plays in the top professional league in their country is notable. This includes Major League Baseball in North America and Nippon Professional Baseball in Japan, among others. Most minor league players are not considered notable, but some players are as determined by WP:BIO. Baseball executives, coaches, and managers are also notable."
Go to the WP:CRICKET page, read their notability guidlines, and let us strive to become better overall. Let us clear up our guidelines and in turn, better wiki project baseball. Ravenmasterq 20:00, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't really want to read the entire discussion... it's too long. But here are my two cents: I think that a player is notable either once he plays a minimum of one (1) official game with an official Major League Baseball club or once he wins a National Award for Baseball-related activity (ie. Triple-A MVP, Finals MVP Award). The "one official game" standard can be determined by going to Baseball-reference, and by searching the player's name, you can see if the player played a game for an MLB club, as Baseball-reference's database doesn't include statistics from when players played in the minor leagues and doesn't have any information on any player who never played a minimum of one official MLB game. Ksy92003 (talk) 18:52, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:WikiProject Mathematics and Wikipedia:WikiProject Numbers, we request your input on the following guidelines for sports facts included in articles about numbers (quoted below). For example, should the article about the number 42 include Jackie Robinson's jersey number? How about the jersey number of a famous hockey player for whom the number was never retired? How about the #42 draft pick for the Boston Red Sox? I've also included the guidelines for NASCAR as an example of how the guidelines for a specific sport might look like. Knotslip12 20:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Numbers
Numbers that appear in the official rules of the game, such as the total number of players per team, number of game partitions (e.g., 9 innings in baseball) are worth mentioning in the number articles.
A record is worth mentioning if it is from a Major League player, or if it appears in the Guinness Book of World Records. Be sure to indicate the year the record was set in order to facilitate removal when a new record is set.
In sports where the number on a player's shirt is not determined by the position he plays, only numbers that have been retired by a Major League team are worth noting. But if a player's number is determined by the position he plays, this probably falls under the rules of the game consideration above.
Car numbers of teams that have won the Daytona 500 or the NEXTEL Cup Series championship are worth noting in the articles on the corresponding numbers.
You may want to come by and comment at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Chris Young (pitcher).-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 23:36, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I also have a FAC on my own with Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bob Meusel. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 01:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
First off, my apologies if this has been discussed in the past. 99% of my contributions are in the ice hockey project, so I am just here because I have one interest. I was wondering if you feel it would be worth my time and effort (which I am willing to offer) to create a List of Barry Bonds home runs. As the man is about to become the most profilic home run hitter of all-time, I think it would certainly be wiki-worthy to have an extensive list of all his home runs (date, opponent, pitcher, stadium). In fact, I think it would be a slam dunk featured list. I am willing to create the list (I've just started it in my sandbox; but then I thought I should come here and ask if it's been discussed before). What do you think? Skudrafan1 03:25, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Baseball-reference does have a link so you can see all the home runs hit by not only Barry Bonds, but every single ML player. It's one thing to have an external link to that site ( [12]), but in my opinion it's too excessive to copy all that information when it's much easier to just provide a link. Additionally, Baseball-reference spends a lot of time to provide this much in-depth info, and I don't think it's fair to replicate all their hard work.
But that aside, I agree with Jaranda that this would be WP:NOT; Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. A list of all of Bonds' 755 home runs (and more, if/when he hits them) is too indiscriminate, in my opinion. Ksy92003 (talk) 06:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
A very important discussion is taking place regarding the possible deletion of Category:African American baseball players.
The discussion opened on August 3, and will probably close in the next day or two. If you wish to add your comments, don't delay. Cgingold 14:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Is there an online site that list the pitches a pitcher uses.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 18:08, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
The requested baseball articles assessments list is now months old, and double digit, if anyone would like to address it ... [13]. Tx. -- Epeefleche 18:11, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Should we begin to add articles for individual team seasons for 2008? jj137 21:16, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I am trying to add a new section to Chris Young (pitcher) and am wondering why there are no articles for control pitcher & power pitcher. Neither appears at List of baseball jargon (C) or List of baseball jargon (P) although control artist does. I could write these, but I imagine another writer would do at least as well. -- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 14:15, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
List of baseball jargon (C) instead of creating new articles (which would probably never get past the "stub + an arbitrary list of players" stage.) Caknuck 20:53, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Hello again from WP:NUM. We are wondering about Barry Bonds. Do you think the article about the number 700 should mention Barry Bonds's record? PrimeFan 18:59, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Why not? I mean you mention Hank Aaron's 755 HR on that article. Bonds currently has 757, which is now the most historic number in all of baseball, now even more so than 755. If 755 should be mentioned in its correlation to baseball, then so should 757. Ksy92003 (talk) 21:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Since this page is so large, could we move to 7 days for the archive bot? Basar 20:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The template Professional Baseball is massive. Is there anyway to reduce this? Split it? Hide sections? Somehow to make it smaller?-- Borgarde talk 10:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
At {{ Infobox MLB player}}, I'm automating the "team color" process - it will autofill the boxes when i'm done. It's a multi step process so if you guys see something funky going on with the team affiliations and such... don't be shocked. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat 10:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place regarding the possible deletion of List of Los Angeles Dodgers Opening Day Starting Lineups.
Reasons for nomination include WP:NOT#INFO, WP:LISTCRUFT, WP:N, and WP:CP. Ksy92003 (talk) 00:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
It's likely going to be overturned it's in WP:DRV. Jaranda wat's sup 13:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I am an admin who was cleaning out the Candidates for Speedy Deletion Backlog and ran across an article for Desmond Jennings tagged for deletion under criteria A7, no assertion of notability. The most relevent portion of the article reads (or read) "Desmond Jennings (b. October 30, 1986 in Birmingham, Alabama) is a baseball outfielder in the minor league program of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. He bats and throws right-handed. He was drafted in the 10th round of the 2006 MLB Draft." I have defered on making a decsion on this article, as I am uncertain on whether or not a claim of playing minor league baseball counts as an assertion of notability. (I am sure that another admin will delete it shortly.) For my future reference, what is the fate of articles on minor league baseball players? Are they uncontroversial deletes, are some kept and some deleted, or are they all kept? Dsmdgold 03:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I have taken the liberty of adding a line item to the Departments section of your WikiProject navigational template entitled 'Deletion sorting'. This link leads to Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Baseball, a page created by the Deletion Sorting WikiProject to assist in topical notifications of articles nominated for deletion to any of the several deletion forums, with emphasis on WP:AFD. --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me) 01:02, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
The Red Sox project needs more members. We're just getting started, and any interested users may join. New England Review Me! 20:28, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't think wikiprojects on indidviual teams are needed, best thing is to merge with here and make it a subpage. Jaranda wat's sup 20:45, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
So I'm looking through the mlb.com rosters, and I notice that MLB.com uses the term "restricted list" when referring to players that are suspended. There is currently only one team that has a player in this situation, the Tigers and Neifi Perez (see {{ Detroit Tigers roster}} and [14]). Therefore, I am proposing that the label "Suspended List" is replaced with "Restricted List" as that is the term that MLB.com uses. X96lee15 02:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
As a wine editor and baseball fan I got a chuckle out of an article in the Sept 30, 2007 Wine Spectator about a special wine set being produced by VinLozano Imports with Tim Wakefield, Curt Schilling and Manny Ramírez for children's charity. I'm looking to buy a set myself so that I can hopefully take a picture but I'm wondering if these would be a worthwhile mention in the players articles. I love the wine names Manny Being Merlot, Schilling Schardonnay and CaberKnuckle. Here is an online article for more info Red Sox Wine for Charity'. Agne Cheese/ Wine 10:47, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like to call people to join in an imortant discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Dates ranges in infoboxes/templates. This project has a number of infoboxes where this discussion is applicable. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat 02:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Carl Zamloch (first half of 20th century pitcher) is currently on the main page, and desperately needs some cleanup. Anybody up to it? Circeus 03:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I noticed this category today. I'm not sure if Summer Baseball leagues warrant inclusion or not, is this part of some organized effort? FrozenPurpleCube 04:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, Hall of Famers should get the colors of the team they were inducted in. There seems to be a general consensus for that.
Now, that being said. What about coaches? If they sit in the dugout, they should wear the color of the team they are coaching, regardless of what team they gained notoriety as a player, i.e., Rickey Henderson. Though I agree he's most noted as an A, he currently works for the Mets and sits on the bench - wearing a Mets uniform. There seems to be an argument on that.
Opinions, please. Mghabmw 23:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree he is most notable as an A's player and will go to the HoF as one, but he is currently in the Mets roster and we should go by what is current, whether player or manager. Mghabmw 17:32, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I also think that a move to standardized colors for all players would make the most sense. There's a lot of attention being sucked into this that would be better devoted to other issues. - Hit bull, win steak (Moo!) 18:36, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
As part of the Notability wikiproject, I am trying to sort out whether Jordan Brown (baseball player) is notable enough for an own article. I would appreciate an expert opinion. For details, see the article's talk page. If you can spare some time, please add your comments there. Thanks! -- B. Wolterding 08:44, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Do you know if there has been discussion at regarding Championship team templates like they use for National Basketball Association teams?-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 01:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
In baseball, there are certain qualifying numbers that are significant. There are the number of at bats or innings one needs to accumulate to qualify for Rookie of the Year. There is another set of numbers (I believe 162 innings and 510 plate appearances) needed to qualify for annual statistical leadership. What is the number of career games, at bats, plate appearances, innings necessary to qualify for career statistical leadership? I am trying to clean up the WP:LEAD at Hector Lopez and need to correctly state the fact.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 02:40, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Seeing as no-one has mentioned this here yet, there is a proposal being written about the notability for sports. Wikipedia:Notabilty (sports). -- Borgarde talk 12:16, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
We've been running into endless sockpuppets of the banned User:Ron liebman. Some of those socks are now citing SABR as a source. Unfortunately, this puts SABR references in a compromised spot, because Liebman himself is a contributor to SABR. In short, any references to SABR as a source could be "circular" references and have to be considered suspect or invalid until or if they can be independently verified... which defeats the purpose of even using SABR as a source. Therefore, sadly, SABR has to be ruled out as a valid source. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 18:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
We have a problem here. The image for the Baltimore Orioles uniform was listed for deletion, and the claim was that a non-free equivalent could be used. I worried about this, as if this was deleted, it could set precedent to delete all uniform images on this project. I considered reporting this to the project, but decided against it when the discussion overwhelmingly proved that the claim held no water. Last night, I was shocked to find that the user Nv8200p had disregarded the proof and reason, and deleted the page, citing that a free equivalent should be used instead. The discussion is enclosed.
- Silent_Wind_of_Doom ( notify | contribs).
- uploaded by
- non-free image used to illustra a team's unniform's colors. We don't use non-free material to convey this kind of information. Abu badali ( talk) 01:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
- This is used to display the uniform of the team, and is used prominantly in the infobox of the team. This is true of all MLB articles, and it is a major part of most articles, as there are sections describing the current uniform, and the evolution of the uniform through the years. These are key to understanding and identifying the teams, and a graphic that is uniform for each team leads to much more unity in the articles, and is by far much more pleasing.-- Silent Wind of Doom 04:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. Team uniform schemes are easily replaceable by free images. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Clubs and their articles for ways to handle this situation. Videmus Omnia Talk 02:10, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- Keep As Silent Wind of Doom correctly explains, the claim made by nominator that "We don't use non-free material to convey this kind of information" is demonstrably incorrect. The proper thing to do here is not to create a mess by deleting essential and consistent content of MLB articles on an ad hoc basis, but to work with Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball to encourage a transition as practical to free images in a way that maintains the integrity and quality of the encyclopedia.— DCGeist 02:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- Keep Take a look at the soccer images, and take a look at the baseball images. We pride ourselves on the accuracy and detail, and the soccer images are very light on the detail and look absolutely horrible. On the other hand, non-free use images used in this capacity are prevalent. Look at the football articles, which use non-free helmet images. The use of non-free images is not causing any problem, and there is no free substitute that will be able to convey the information as accurately.-- Silent Wind of Doom 05:18, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- The helmet logos are copyrightable and can't be replaced by free equivalents. Unless I'm seriously mistaken, uniform color schemes do not contain enough creative elements to be copyrightable. The fact that you believe the football uniform depitctions don't look good really isn't relevent - the advantage is that they're free. If they don't look good, maybe someone will be motivated to create better ones. But when it comes down to policy, the team uniform schemes are replaceable non-free images per the very first item of our non-free content policy, WP:NFCC#1. Videmus Omnia Talk 05:24, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- That may be, but it would be a serious misstep to apply that policy on an ad hoc basis to an article that is part of a project that has a consistent style across more than a couple dozen related, important articles. To do so precipitously, as is proposed here, would undermine the integrity and quality of our encyclopedia in a rather obvious way. The nomination--whose central claim was baldly erroneous to begin with--should be withdrawn and those who have raised these concerns should work directly with the project to achieve a resolution that's win-win.— DCGeist 06:37, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but have you ever looked at the soccer images. We will absolutely not change to such a system. Those images are horribly innacurate, and are an insult to this encyclopedia. Go ahead, and compare the Chicago Fire jersey to the jersey the players wear here: http://chicago.fire.mlsnet.com/t100/index.jsp. The information that is conveyed by the current uniform system is INCORRECT. This is an encyclopedia, and it should contain FACTS not the closest things because it's free and easier, when we can have a TRUE depiction. We can have these images. That's not the issue. We're able to have them on this encyclopedia. What, do you want us to sacrifice integrity and truth just to swap one template on the image page for another? No. That is wrong. This is an encyclopedia, and it should contain information. True information. The first poster mentioned team colors. This isn't team colors. This is a team uniform. It contains logos, insignias, and print names which are inherently copyrighted. Therefore, the claim is false. There is no free replacement possible. This is exactly the same as the football helmets, which no one here seems to have a problem with. If the football helmets stay, this stays. The uniforms are important information, and therefore should be depicted prominantly, as we have done. If anything, the soccer images should be changed. They are incorrect, and false information does not belong in an encyclopedia. -- Silent Wind of Doom 17:12, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Delete, as this can be replaced by a free image. – Quadell ( talk) ( random) 14:51, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Follow-up Thanks for the references, Silent Wind (I hope you don't mind, I piped the Chicago Fire link so it goes straight to the article). I've looked at a couple other such cases now and this seems determinitive to me: the baseball articles are of markedly superior encyclopedic quality to the soccer articles in this regard. Compare: Baseball: Baltimore Orioles / what uniforms actually look like; Soccer: D.C. United / what uniforms actually look like. Claims that the image presently in question can be replaced by a free one ignore what should be the obvious fact: the image proposed for deletion here cannot be replaced by a free image of comparable quality and accuracy while maintaining encyclopedic consistency across this important series of articles. The nomination should be withdrawn forthwith and the nominator, if he wishes to pursue this matter, should do so in good faith by entering into direct dialogue with the project.— DCGeist 18:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- KeepThe baseball images really do look much better than the soccer ones--more importantly they're much more accurate. Just as importantly, their use seems to be in the best spirit of fair use. And keeping a consistent look for related entries is a theme brought up time and again around Wikipedia--I don't understand how Mr. Badali singled out this one image and how anyone thinks that deleting it improves the encyclopedia. DocKino 21:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- I hope you all realize..." that "the unfree image looks incredibly better" is not a valid argument to use non-free material. -- Abu badali ( talk) 03:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yup, we sure do That's why we emphasize and demonstrate the far superior accuracy of the images used by the baseball project.— DCGeist 04:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Not to mention the fact that the logos and print names visible on the uniforms are copyrighted, and therefore the images are NOT REPLACABLE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Silent Wind of Doom ( talk • contribs) 04:42, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
- Keep Drawings created by editors, which is what the deletionists are advocating, are blatant original research and thus they are a violation of wikipedia policy. And as noted directly above, inclusion of the logos would be problematic, and thus the copyrighted images are not replaceable. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 08:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Also, the often-amateurish appearance of home-grown drawings does nothing to enhance wikipedia's credibility. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 08:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- The cute little home-grown illustration of soccer uniforms cited by someone above (including their cute little shorts) contains no citation, that I can see, of the source of those colors/colours. Thus, it appears to be original research based on what somebody "thinks" those colors/colours are. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 08:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Image deleted. Image use fails WP:NFCC #1. Also, the copyright holder is not known for sure. - Nv8200p talk 03:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the file's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
This is an outrage. This image was deleted on false premises, and the fact that Nv8200p seems to have an extensive past relationship with Abu badali, Videmus Omnia, and Quadell seems dubious. They seem to have formed for themselves a small team that are fighting to have every non-free image stricken from the encyclopedia. Jeez, the word "seem" was used a lot there.
Anyway, this whole affair is a huge misuse of power, and Nv8200p has completely push aside the voices, opinions, and, most of all, proof set forth by the people, just so he could push his own agenda. We need to do something about this, and, most of all, get this image restored, and keep our other non-free images safe. I was told to take this up somewhere else, but I unfortunately do not have the knowledge of the Wikipedia beurocracy (or a memory of how to spell beurocracy), so I ask for help on how to take this where it needs to be taken, and, of course, as depiction of the uniforms is important to the project, I ask for your support. If this stands, all our uniform images will disappear.-- Silent Wind of Doom 18:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
If anyone is interested, there is a very long discussion going on over at Talk:Josh Gibson about the best way to explain the home run total of Negro League Hall of Famer Josh Gibson. — Wknight94 ( talk) 10:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Just the baseball seasons are oversized by themselves, now; I've proposed re-splitting either by team, or by decade: please comment there. Alai 06:40, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Anyone besides me suddenly having trouble with the flag icons displaying on the team roster pages? -- Sanfranman59 07:30, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
An editor has brought up concerns at Talk:Cardinals-Cubs_rivalry#Another_break_in_the_action about the encyclopedic relevance of rivals canceling game after a tragedy. To my knowledge, nothing like the deaths of two players in the middle of a rivalry series has ever happened to two teams before. However I would like to get a broader input from other baseball folks for the sake of perspective. Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated. Agne Cheese/ Wine 19:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
User:StormXor and I worked together to come up with a pretty good colorization scheme in the presence of heavy editorial activity in the weeks immediately after 756 at
Barry Bonds. Now, there is a move afoot to uncolorize Bonds. Opinions are needed at
Talk:Barry_Bonds#stats_section_use_of_color. We are debating the use of colors in stats tables with respect to
WP:WAI section 4 and the current
Barry Bonds page versus the
former color scheme. The debate will probably shape color scheme usage throughout baseball bio article stat sections so be thoughtful. You may want to look at other pages that have colorized stat sections such as
Roger Clemens,
Hector Lopez, and
Chris Young (pitcher). Keep in mind what
Bonds before colorization looked like. If you know any other editors who you think may have strong opinions one way or another please ask them to comment as well.--
TonyTheTiger (
t/
c/
bio/
tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM)
18:03, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
the teams' current season's payroll should be a part of Template:MLB infobox, with a link provided to List of Major League Baseball teams by payroll for further reference. payroll is extremely significant, as well as a potential indicator of so many things such as revenue, fan support, ability to acquire/keep players/coaches, and possibly potential to win. here's what i'm proposing, followed by an example.... Riphamilton 18:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
{{{name}}} Established [[{{{established}}} in baseball|{{{established}}}]] {{{misc}}} | |||
| |||
Major league affiliations | |||
| |||
Current uniform | |||
| |||
Name | |||
| |||
| |||
Other nicknames | |||
| |||
Ballpark | |||
| |||
Major league titles | |||
World Series titles {{{WS}}} | {{{WORLD CHAMPIONS}}} | ||
{{{LEAGUE}}} Pennants {{{P}}} | {{{PENNANTS}}} | ||
{{{misc1}}} | {{{OTHER PENNANTS}}} | ||
{{{DIV}}} Division titles {{{DV}}} | {{{Division Champs}}} | ||
{{{misc5}}} | {{{OTHER DIV CHAMPS}}} | ||
Wild card berths {{{WC}}} | {{{Wild Card}}} | ||
{{{misc6}}} | |||
2007 Payroll: ${{{payroll}}}M ({{{MLB payroll rank}}}MLB, {{{League payroll rank}}}{{{league}}} | |||
Owner(s): {{{owner}}} | |||
Manager: {{{manager}}} | |||
General Manager: {{{gm}}} |
Tampa Bay Devil Rays | |
---|---|
![]() | |
| |
Major league affiliations | |
| |
Retired numbers | 12, 42 |
Name | |
| |
Other nicknames | |
| |
Ballpark | |
| |
Major league titles | |
World Series titles (0) | none |
AL Pennants (0) | none |
Division titles (0) | none |
Wild card berths (0) | None |
Front office | |
Principal owner(s) | 2007 Payroll: $24.1M (30th MLB, 14th AL) |
General manager | Andrew Friedman |
Manager | Joe Maddon |
(i just replaced the owner with payroll for the example. it will fit on one line.)
This user, who had nominated numerous baseball-related articles for deletion over the last several months, was just indefblocked for abusive sockpuppetry. As such, it may be appropriate to revisit some of these deletions. - Hit bull, win steak (Moo!) 19:50, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I want to substitute all the game logs into the articles, instead as using them as a transcluded templates into the article. This way the game logs can be edited without going into a template, and you can simply click edit on the section entitled game log, and you will edit the game log. I think this is better, it's going to take the same amount of time for the page to load. And also, if you are watching the page, when someone makes an edit to the game log it will show up on your watchlist, and in the history of the page being edited. I can't really see any disagreement with this, but I posted this to see if anyone else had any other opinions? -- Borgarde talk 07:02, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
(Outdent) Actually, and JJ can attest to this, we had a discussion this past weekend. I'm changing my opinion slightly, but here are my two proposals toward game logs:
1) Transclude them in the articles until you complete them, and then move them to the template namespace. It's a perhaps personal thought, but I fear either A; some admin would wonder "why do we need this category flooded?" and perhaps do subsequent deletions and thousands of edits would be out the door or (erroniously) call them "copyvios." Erroniously (sic)? WTF mate? I say this because last month I talked with Baseball-Reference.com, and game logs are perfectly allowable and content contained within them cannot be copyrighted, meaning we are in the clear here.
However, my other idea is:
2) Work on them on a Word document or something (whichever works for you) and complete them there, then just cut-and-paste them into a template. I'd probably still transclude at first then put them in a template, though. If the template got deleted (wrongfully so, I'd hope they'd go through TfD first), then we'd, once again, unless you saved your document, we'd have hours of lost work.
Now, if this is sticking to the 2007 articles or any game logs that have already been completed, there is no change that should be made. But for upcoming game logs, I'd just thought I'd throw out my take on this. Soxrock 01:37, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I was editing the New York Yankees all-time roster but took a few days off, when I returned a user named Fabrictramp had edited the page about 30 times in a row, adding a hundreds of red links for non-notable players who never played a game for the team, do we really need to name a bunch of useless players and links when all it does is make the article look like sh... crap? TheNextOne 21:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Notability comes in many varieties. Charles Victory Faust was better known as a good-luck charm than anything. There was a mediocre Orioles pitcher during their Weaver dynasty (I think it was Eddie Watt) who was supposedly kept around mainly because he was good at throwing batting practice. But regardless of whether you're Casey Stengel or Casey Wise, just playing in a major league game is a notable achievement that separates them from (most of) us. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 23:42, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Should we start creating them yet? The season's just about over and I think it's time we get a move on that. - jj137 Talk • Contribs 21:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I've put Seattle Mariners up for peer review here, as I've made substantial improvements to it and think it's nearing GA-quality. Any input from project members would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! - Elmer Clark 05:16, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I propose that on the main project page, the suggested infobox template for a minor league team be changed from Template:Minor league team to Template:MiLB infobox. The first one (currently suggested as the temp to use for minor league teams) is only used on a handfull of articles. The second one is used on the majority of articles.
I thought that I could just make this change myself, but I didn't want to be to BOLD. - NatureBoyMD 00:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Template:Minor league team has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — NatureBoyMD 22:43, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I have found it to be extremely annoying that Wikipedia does not have an article (and yearly series of articles) on the postseason as a whole, as we do with the other major sports. Has anyone considered creating such, or has a consensus been reached against it? The way, the truth, and the light 07:36, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Since it looks like the Wikipedia:Notabilty (sports) guidelines are not going to be adopted by the masses, does anyone have any interest in adopting the baseball guidelines from that proposal to replace the WP:Baseball notability guidelines? I think the newer ones are somewhat more clear than the vague wording on the current project guidelines. Spanneraol 14:33, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Template:Baseball team has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — NatureBoyMD 23:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Now that the Chicago Cubs all-time roster has survived an AfD debate, it seems time to revisit the standards for the all time rosters.
It seems to me that the goals for having standards are two-fold. One is that it's nice to have each of the all-time rosters looking a bit uniform. The other is that it's nice to know what information should be included (to make the rosters both useful and more than a duplication of the categories), and nice to know what information is just clutter.
The current standard is to include every player who played in at least one regular season game. Also listed are the years the player played, main position (P, C, IF, OF, DH, PH, PR) played for that team, and whether the player is in the Hall of Fame. (Hall of Fame info has not yet been added to most of the rosters). So far most of the rosters have been formatted in 3 columns (using <div style="-moz-column-count:3; column-count:3;"> to make the column breaks automatic), but I can't honestly recall if this is standard. Also, links to the other MLB all-time rosters (using the {{MLB All-Time rosters}} template) and the team link template (in this case {{Chicago Cubs}}) have been added to most, if not all, of the all-time rosters.
A couple of editors have suggested that flags to show the country of origin of each player would be a welcome addition to the rosters (such as on Boston Red Sox all-time roster). Other editors have expressed a dissatisfaction with the information included, but haven't offered suggestions for improvement. I think a more complete, standard wording for the introduction would also be useful.
So I'm proposing a two-fold discussion. Part 1 is what information should and should not be included in the all-time rosters. Part 2 is how best to format that information. Thoughts?-- Fabrictramp 21:59, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
While looking through the requested articles, I came across "Suspended game" and decided to give it a go. However, I'm not at all sure that what I came up with cuts it. The article I wrote can be found here. Is this good enough to start the article? Basically all I did was give what the rule book says, and since one of the links (both, actually) are just to the rule book, I wonder if there's even a point to it. If it is good enough, is there anything more that needs to be done to stress that what is written is taken verbatim from the rule book? After the article is created, then it can be improved with the history of the suspended game or notable suspended games, all I'm looking to do is get the ball rolling. I'm just not sure if this is good enough, and I don't want to bother if it's just going to be deleted. Thanks, faithless (speak) 07:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Why was this article moved from West Tenn Diamond Jaxx? Minorleaguebaseball.com, the Seattle Mariners' website, and the Diamond Jaxx' own official website all list the team name as "West Tenn." Wikipedia is intentionally being wrong...why exactly? 69.7.37.69 03:26, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Template:Baseball Coach has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — NatureBoyMD 21:53, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Template:Aus Baseball Club infobox has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — NatureBoyMD 21:58, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Template:Mlbretiredtest has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — NatureBoyMD 22:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Template:Baseball Links has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — NatureBoyMD 17:37, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
The Johnson City Cardinals page has recently been rescued from an ill-timed deletion. THere were some WP:BLP issuies, but those have been removed. The remaining portion is just a stub now, and could use some attention from editors with experience in improving minor league team articles. Thanks. - BillCJ 18:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I am making a proposal to move all baseball seasonal articles (for example, 2006 Cincinnati Reds season) to not include the word "season" (it would then read simply "2006 Cincinnati Reds"). I feel it is very self-explanatory and redundant. If you think this would take too long to move all of these, I would like to comment that at the B-R Bullpen they have a seasonal article for every season (where as here we only have maybe ⅔) and Soxrock was able to move all of them to their appropriate name there within only a few days. (I'm not saying he should have to move them all again, but I'm just making a point that it wouldn't take that long if we do it efficiently.) Thanks. jj137 ( Talk) 18:15, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Image:NLE-NYM-Logo.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 10:34, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
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