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Just wanted to inform everyone that additional stubcategories have been created. Some of these are subcategories of auto-stubs, and here is the list:
I've sorted most of the auto stubs, and have reduced them from about 1400 to about 175, most of which are related either to racing, magazines or people. Shouldn't be any need to create more subcategories, but if so, feel free to give me a little nod on my talkpage. Bjelleklang - talk 23:35, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi everyone, I just created this template you can use on your user page. Enjoy! -- ApolloBoy 02:59, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I have created the article List of former automotive manufacturing plants. Would like to submit it for consideration for the community to help expand, especially with regard to the many historic facilities not listed. Thanks! Autoplant 01:10, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
As someone who just stumbled on this project, I'm very surprised that there is not a standardized infobox given the maturity of the project and number of contributors. I know that there has been talk over at Layouts, but it seems very inactive. I truly dislike to criticize, but coming to a consensus about the info would make a number of very good articles even better and should be a higher priority. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 23:13, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I've added in Erskine (automobile) to Wikipedia and would appreciate any additions to the article to help make it stronger Stude62 02:42, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Is this extra page needed, or should it be a sub-entry under Mitsubishi Galant? The car looks about the same as the Galant, although it is highly modified and does mean the difference between the life and death of Mitsubishi Australia.
The differences between Galant and 380 are fewer than between the 1984 Galant and the 1985 Magna, which had a widened platform. The 380 is on the PS platform, some of its changes will be incorporated into other Galants, and is arguably not that much more different from the original than the Taiwanese Galant Grunder, which at least has some unique sheetmetal up front.
To me, Galant v. 380 is the same difference as between a Ford Cortina made in the UK and one in Australia—and historically, we have dealt with the latter as part of the main article.
Mitsubishi marketing has convinced local journalists that this is a unique car for Australians—a fact that instils a level of pride. I can understand this, as the issue of local production is a big deal Down Under. I'm asking fellow editors from around the world if they see it objectively the same way, or if antipodean editors are being swayed unwittingly. Stombs 04:15, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
The articles should probably be merged just like the article on the Ford Granada where both European and American versions (two entriely different models in this case) are merged into one article. It makes the most sense and creates more unity among car articles-something that needs desperate imporvement. Gerdbrendel 10:06, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
I have recently been confronted with the issues as to how the different types of engines should be listed in car articles. At first I tried lisiting them in the table at the top of the page but in some models such as the Lincoln Town Car or Cadillac Seville this led to monstrous tables that literally disfigured the article. In ordered to solve the problem I created little "blue boxes" as I call them for articles concerning cars that have too many engines in order for them to be listed in a page. You can see an example on the Lincoln Mark ir Lincoln Continental pages. On these pages the blue boxes provided an alternative to listing the engines inside the table and to the ununified approach of lisitng engine specs within the article. Any suggestions let me know, Thank you. Gerdbrendel 05:10, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Good Idea, A color system-easy to remember- lightblue for U.S., green for European, and red for Japanese engines. Thanks Gerdbrendel 10:14, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I just published an article Vehicle Engineering. I am fairly new at this (only my 2nd article), so I would appreciate some editing, help, etc on this. Helpful links, catagory referencing, etc, would be helpful.
Another area I would like some help with is, I can not find many references to the term Vehicle Engineering. It is not a widely used term outside the auto industry. All modern auto companies use a Vehicle Engineer, or that function. I would like to add legitimacy to this if anyone could find an web reference to VEHICLE ENGINEERING. Thanks.
I have also discovered many articles that either need to be written, or need some "automotive" editing. I will review this, and publish these at a later time. I will use this as my to-do-list, and if anyone wants to jump in and help, be my guest.
Also, I recommend the book I listed as a reference for anyone interested in the modern workings of a auto. Note, I have no affiliation with the book, just thought it was a great read, and reference to some of the things I have written here. See www.haynes.co.uk for details. -- Drussel3 14:11, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
This is a list of "TO DO's" I have come across from writing the article Vehicle Engineering. Feel free to work on any of them. I hope to eventually get to them, but you know how time gets.
Add stubs of the following, and link from the Vehicle Engineering article.
Add automotive references. Many of these articles don't need to be new, just a section related to automotive on existing articles.
Articles needing help.
I've been quite annoyed with people (mostly non-users) on the Honda Civic page changing the production dates to (in this case) non-sensical ones with new models starting on the year after they were first introduced in Japan - confusingly making the latest generation Civic only start production in "2006" even though it has been on sale in Japan since last September - which prior to 3 days ago was technically saying a car that is in production isn't actually in production! Anyway, I came across this, but it seems to be biased towards the US market. It appears in Japan that new models of cars can be released at any time of the year ( [1]). I don't know exactly about Europe - never really thought about what time of the year new cars come out...-- Zilog Jones 16:52, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I have noticed that the Mercedes-Benz pages, especially the S-Class site, as well as the Mercedes-Benz roadcar timeline feature addriviations which I make out to be platforms. I strongly beleive that these addriviation should be replaced with the actual model names such S430 or CL500 since the other abbriviations are unrecognizable to non MB-fans who probably make up the majority of Wikipedia visitors. Gerdbrendel 20:07, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi -its me again, I'm proposing a New GMC Yukon Page. Considering the recent 2007 Model year design changes and the Denali trim the Yukon has really become a model in its own right. Nearly half of the current Tahoe/Yukon page is filled with Yukon and Yukon Denali information that does not relate to the Chevy Tahoe. It has also been really difficult to describe the recent design changes for both the Yukon and Tahoe in the same article. Just like the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis have their own articles so should the Yukon and the Tahoe. Gerdbrendel 02:19, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Reading the discussion on this page I see there is a fair breadth of opinion. I have been working on Valiant (automobile) that now has a focus on the Chrysler Australia Valiant range and created a Valiant Charger article, IMHO a noteworthy car. However there is a longer article on the Plymouth Valiant. Some editors may want to merge these articles. But, from an Australian perspective, and the later model Valiants were Australian. The main article should probably have been Valiant (automobile). These articles are currently at Category:Transport in Australia, there is no clearly more appropriate category at present - suggestions Paul foord 13:26, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to merge the content from Overhead cam, Single overhead cam, Double overhead cam, Pushrod engine, Camless, OHV, Flathead engine and F-Head Engine into a single article about valvetrain configurations/layouts/whatever else you want to call it. They're all small (for the most part stubs) and contain overlapping information. I think it would be easier for the audience to refer to one comprehensive article on the subject rather than a half-dozen stubs. At the very least Single overhead cam and Double overhead cam should be incorporated into Overhead cam. Thoughts? Objections? Endorsements? -- 93JC 03:06, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I just found out there are articles for DPF, Particle filter (automotive) and Diesel Particulate Filter. These should all be merged. Does anyone with a greater understanding of engineering want to tackle it? Pc13 13:48, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi, just wanted to see if I could drum up some assistance on a few fringe automobile pages.
and, to a lesser extent,
and many related articles are trendy, cultural topics that currently attract a lot of vandalism, over-enthusiastic IP editors and lots of POV commentary. There seems to be a fairly low amount of traffic on these articles from established, policy-savvy editors.
I don't really like editing these articles, but even these loosely-related topics reflect on the quality of automotive information on WP, many of them link to more mainstream automotive articles, and some of the least reliable auto information ends up on these pages. Not to mention the POV, vandalism and copyright issues.
Anyway, I'm not begging anyone to come put out a fire, or back me up in some argument or dispute; I just think if these articles were on a few more watchlists, the general quality of this corner of WP could improve a lot.
Thanks!
Fox1
(talk)
00:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I've rewritten the LaSalle article and the Edsel articles
I undertook the rewrite on LaSalle because:
Regarding my work on the Edsel article:
As usual, my writing needs a keen and sharp eye for proofing. Still I think that some of the contributions helped to make the articles stronger than they were before. Stude62 16:02, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
The Following additional information on "Yulon GM Motors", Taiwan as of 25 Oct 2005:
After four months of operations in Taiwan, Yulon GM Motors Co (裕隆通用) is now gearing up to increase its visibility by setting up more flagship showrooms according to company executives.
It will establish three more showrooms by the first quarter of next year to bring its total to six, said Charles Yu (游文杰), brand manager for Yulon GM's Cadillac lineup.
Each of the showrooms, which offer VIP services such as bar lounges and private cubicles, will cost the company around NT$50 million (US$1.48 million), he said.
"As we have just kicked off our operations, we aim to expand in the local market by offering unique services to our clients," he said.
Set up in July 2005, Yulon GM Motors is a joint venture between Yulon Motor, the nation's third-biggest carmaker, and General Motors, the world's largest automaker. Yulon Motor holds a 51 percent stake and GM has the rest.
Yulon GM Motors introduced its third Cadillac model, the Cadillac STS, on 24 October 2005. The STS sedans come in 3.6 liter and 4.6 liter models, with price tags that start at NT$2.48 million.
The firm has been selling about 50 of the luxury Cadillacs a month with its previous models, and plans to sell 100 STS models by the end of the year, Yu said.
Yulon GM Motors has set a sales target of 500 Cadillacs for 2006, said chief executive officer Pan Fu-jen (潘扶仁).
"Buyers of the luxury sedans are not worried about rising gasoline prices; brand, identity and performance of these vehicles are far more important," Yu said.
JOINT VENTURE LAUNCHED General Motors and Yulon Motor have officially launched a joint venture established for the sale and distribution of GM vehicles in Taiwan. The venture, known as Yulon GM Motors Co. Ltd., will import Cadillac, Buick, and Opel vehicles – and by the end of next year it will also begin handling Buick vehicles that Yulon will assemble locally.
The joint venture's capital is NT$2 billion (US$62.5 million), with Yulon Motor holding a 51% equity stake and GM the remainder. A large nationwide network of showrooms and service centers is in the works, and Yulon Motor also plans to establish an engineering center to adapt Buick designs for the local market.
In addition to the Yulon GM Motors website at http://www.e-gm.com.tw
a website has also been established for Opel Taiwan at http://www.opel.com.tw
Is one already in the works?It seems that on the transport page a (train) and (aircraft) portal are already link.An automobile portal might be a good idea,it would pull some attention to the project and give a nice overview.
I can't help to notice that although this project has a lot of participants that the aircraft project 'seems' more organized.-- Technosphere83 20:09, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I wrote throttle body without really knowing what I'm talking about, so anybody who has a modicrum of understanding about it, if you could take a look and point out any glaringly obvious mistakes, that'd be great. -- Interiot 04:05, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Does the scope of this project cover things like auto magazines, car trade shows, auto racing, auto biographies, driving techniques, etc? It looks like Wikipedia:WikiProject Automobile construction is inactive, but even if it wasn't, it still wouldn't cover the bulk of these. But things like /Templates seems to be exclusively focuesed on makes and models of cars. Can I add {{ Piston engine configurations}} to that?
It seems like most of the topics are being talked about on this page, so can we go ahead and add all the relevant stub types to the main page, that are listed at the top of Category:Automobile stubs? And otherwise add more resources that reflect a broader scope? -- Interiot 04:05, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
My vote for the next stub to be created is {{ auto-bio-stub}}, as that seems to be the largest group currently in Category:Automobile stubs. Though it would probably only have 50-75 entries now, so maybe it can wait.
About Category:Automotive organization stubs, that doesn't seem to be used very much. I'm not quite sure what should go in there. Should auto magazines go in there? Can auto shows go in there? Both seem to have a lot of representation in {{ auto-stub}} currently. -- Interiot 04:05, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Does it seem like a good idea to create /Requested Images? There are a bunch of articles that are begging for at least one image, and some of them are really pretty easy. The really super-obvious ones that are currently on my list are Hood (vehicle), Odometer, Redline, and Contact patch and Roll center/ Unsprung weight needing illustrations, but there are many articles that would be helped a little by at least having a single picture. -- Interiot 04:05, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Fantastic idea. Go for it! hadley 01:56, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
If someone can spare the time, can you take a look at the Pontiac article. I think its bogged down in cliches and lingo to the point where information seems to be taking a back seat to jargon and POV statements. I was wondering if anyone got that feeling. Stude62 17:31, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I've broken off the Nash Ambassador content off of the AMC Ambassador article, and placed it into an article of its own. Stude62 15:37, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'm a member of the Wikipedia:Version_1.0_Editorial_Team, which is looking to identify quality articles in Wikipedia for future publication on CD or paper. We recently began assessing using these criteria, and we are looking for A-class, B-class, and Good articles, with no POV or copyright problems. Can you recommend any suitable articles? Please post your suggestions here. Thanks a lot! Gflores Talk 17:40, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks again for your help. Reviewing these was a pleasure, allowing me to reminisce about old Cortinas from childhood! I notice that the non-FA articles all look to be good except for one thing - unlike the FAs (at least recent ones) they don't have a good no. of refs, hence they are held back as B-Class. I would think that if you use as source material the manufacturer's model website, a book or two, and some technical magazines (ones that give technical facts rather than consumer reviews, etc.), the four articles you mention would all be A-Class, and could easily be nudged into FACs. Please feel free to add to/update this table. Many thanks, Walkerma 18:49, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I Added the references to the Town Car article and after reviewing the wiki grading guidelines have come to the conclusion that it now truly is an A-Class article. Signature brendel 02:37, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Recently, there has been much debate over whether to have separate or combined articles for similar vehicles, such as Chrysler minivans, or the GM minivans ( Chevrolet Venture. Currently, there are inconsistencies in what has been done. For example, the Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan, and Lincoln Zephyr all have their own articles as does the Dodge Caravan, Chrysler Town and Country, and Plymouth Voyager. However, there have been proposals to merge the GM and Chrysler minivan articles, and some articles, such as Chevrolet Tahoe already contain information on two or more simlar vehicles. We need to make a final and clear decision on this topic now, so we don't start arguing forever while all the articles, combined or merged, degrade in quality. Please respond here with your feedback and whether you support separate or merged articles for similar vehicles, like those shown as examples above. Airline 01:20, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I support generally support seperate articles. It can be very difficult to mention all the details of two vehicles in one article (Lincoln Zephyr and MKZ for example are best kept seperate). I also previously proposed to seperate the Yukon from the Tahoe since there are some differences to justify such seperation. So, while my vote is to keep these articles seperate, I may agree with other editors that in some cases a merger is best. I think such a decision depends on how many attributes exactely the vehicles have in common; in history, technology, and looks. Gerdbrendel 04:06, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I incline to think separate articles work best--this structure has the best chance of delivering exactly the information the reader is looking for. Related articles can easily be interlinked and organized into categories, after all--that's the power of the wiki. RivGuySC 06:55, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I am in favor of keeping articles "For example the GM and Chrysler minivans" sepatate articles. They are related but there are very noticeable differences on the interior and exterior of these cars. Through certain experiences I've come to know that most similar cars articles do better with their own separate articles. Bavaria 23:41, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I agree. I petitioned for this before, split the Yukon and Tahoe articles. Yes there are very closely related but there are enough differences between the two to jsutify a split. A quater of the article is about the Denali alone! Just like the Yukon and the Suburban have different articles, so should the Yukon and the Tahoe. Thanks. Gerdbrendel 02:45, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I think it best to keep separate articles for similar vehicles because they are separate products.-- Lihourj 11:38, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi,
Airline asked for comments here, this is what I wrote when
Bavaria asked before... I can't say I know much about these minivans (we don't have many, if any, in England) but my preference would be a single master page covering background details on the type, with seperate pages for each model which only highlight differences. Given the amount of detail available on this type, maintaining it on three or four pages is a waste of effort.
Failing that you could decide on which model is the most prevelant or definitive, create an extensive article on that, and create short pages on the other models showing only the differences. A third option would be shifting the bulk of the detail to a page such as GM U platform.
Either way, you can take this as a vote to merge any and all repeated information.
Another example of the rebadging issue is the Ford Galaxy, Volkswagen Sharan and SEAT Alhambra. akaDruid 13:24, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Airline and fellow editors, perhaps I can summarize. I have two concerns: (a) organization; (b) what an uninformed reader would seek. Separate articles seem to be the way to go and I sense most editors prefer this.
To me, there are cases when similar vehicles should be grouped together and when they should not be. If you're talking about a car that is eactly the same, just a different badge (e.g. General Motors Astra), then yes group them together. However, if the cars are distinctly different from each other (like how the USDM Ford Escort and the EUDM Ford Escort are entirely different vehicles), then I say separate them. Just my two cents. - Daniel Blanchette 20:16, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
The Lincoln Zephyr and Lincoln MKZ are not split. There is just a little mention under "Lincoln Zephyr" so people who look up the 2006 Zephyr can find some information which tells then why they should visit the 2007 Lincoln MKZ article. Since the car was called the Zephyr I think the little mention on the bottom there is just fine, besides its very user friendly. Signature brendel 17:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi Airline! Thanks for the hint, but I'm quite undecided. There are pros and cons and I think it depends on the models. E.g. for the Neon I would expect one article for all brands it's been marketed under, since the marketing focuses more on the name Neon as brand. With very similar cars as the triple Citroën C1, Peugeot 107 and Toyota Aygo or Volkswagen Sharan and Ford Galaxy (sorry, I'm European, so you get mostly European examples from me ;-), one single article may make sense, but I don't see it as necessarity, especially since the new, upcoming Galaxy won't have anything in common with Volkswagen's family vans at all, so a separate article would make more sense. And for (today) technically similar but optical completely different cars like Volkswagen Golf, Audi A3, Seat Leon, and Skoda Octavia should go definitely into different articles, not only because formerly they were completely different cars. So in general, I think separate articles are ok, if they already exist, since either the cars' history or future may be different cars -- XTaran | Talk 11:04, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia (in my opinion) is in need of an article discussing autmobile ownership and such issues as insurance, registration, autmobile maintaince, license and etc. Since this is the automobile project i come to you. Thank you for reading and hope i made a useful suggestion. Tutmosis 02:36, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Good suggestion. Here are some related articles. -- Rj 07:20, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Maybe we should create a dismbugation page named Car Ownership from which all the articles above link. Signature brendel 07:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I think their should be a main article not a disambig since this article would cover many topics. Thanks Tutmosis 02:34, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Started an actual article ' Automobile ownership' please expand or share opinion regarding its proposed deletion. Tutmosis 16:05, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I personally think that the Ford Taurus should be the example article, since it is just a smudge from featured status. -- Karrmann
Hi, Samstayton has recently proposed a merger between W12 and V12 engines since they are very similar. Considering the extend to which mergers were discussed above, this is an example of two pages that should be merged. Thanks. Signature brendel 17:24, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the way it is right now is just prefect. The disambig is there so people who type in 12 Cylinder engine, and don't really now that much about the subject, can see that there is more than one kind and chose which one they would like to reasearch. It makes it more user firendly, that's all. Signature brendel 21:45, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Posting the template at the top of each page is actually a very good idea, but still what happens to the user who just types in 12 Cylinder engine. I think the articles on vehicle marques can serve as good example. Many articles on car companies both list the vehicles made by that manufacturer (and thereby also serve as a bisambig) and feature a template. Its just like you said, a disambig doesn't do any harm and might help a few users, so I say let's just keep the disambig. Thanks. Signature brendel 22:18, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I proposed merger because I thought about the future. According to my vision, future of wikipedia is bright and it will greatly expand. We will have to consolidate related pages into one. The section on W12 is not very big and cannot get very big because only one manufacturer is involved.
Also, niche topics like flat 16 and V16 etc can also be consolidated on a single page.
Wherever there is a possibility of future expansion we should keep it as a single page, but whereever we know there wont be substantial expansion, we must consolidate. I very strongly doubt if piston engines especially V16 and above can be expanded. So it makes sense to consolidate them. Having 2 lines and 4 lines of dribble on just one page is a very bad idea. Samstayton 10:14, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
How do I sign up to become one of the editors on this automobile project? Samstayton 10:14, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed on the Chevrolet page that there have been a number of informational edits regarding what replaced specific vehicles and which vehicle were replaced by the list entry. While I understand that lists need to provide basic information about the entry is on the list (ie why is the item listed) shouldn't the hyperlink to the article contain information about what precedes and what follows something?
I normally wouldn't pose the question, but given the length of the list, it gets a bit overwhelming... Stude62 21:29, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Do we, as a project, have minimum image standards regarding automobiles?
I'm asking because I just spent a couple hours removing a number of images that were untagged, of poor composition, and very poor quality, all of which were uploaded by one user today. In almost every instance, the cars were encrusted with road dirt and salt; some were covered in snow, while others were hidden by portions of people, or snow drifts. While I can appreciate that they were most likely uploaded and added to auto articles with the best of intentions, the images didn't cut it with me.
To me, the image standards should be simple:
Any thoughts?
Stude62 20:52, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
I generally agree with all the guidelines Stude62 mentioned above but disagree with #7. There are some pictures of cars taken in private driveways that look very good (see GMC Denali. Yes, these pictures are in the minoruty but nevertheless the phrase should be revised to: "Drive-by images (i.e. pictures of car parked in private driveways, etc.) that display private home addresses or license plates should be avoided, unless they are of high quality." Otherwise I am fully in support of the guidelines proposed above. Thanks. Signature brendel 03:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I suggest a new project subpage on photos. I like those suggested guidelines in general except for number 4. We need to be clear that free images are always preferred to non-free unless the quality is ridiculously bad. As for number 7, I've been thinking of this quite a bit. Sometimes it's necessary to take a picture of a privately-owned car, especially for a rare model that you happen to see, but it should generally be frowned upon. I've been taking shots at some local used car dealers (with permission) and only uploading private cars if they're special (see Image:Buick Reatta.jpg for an example!) Another thing to add is that pictures should be uploaded to the commons instead of here and that they have copyright tags and categories. -- SFoskett 17:46, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I would like to request for a userbox to made for Wikiproject: Autmobiles for use on userpages. I know there is already a template, but having a userbox would be awesome as well. I myself much prefer userboxes. If somebody could whip one up that would be great, because unfortunatly I'm a beginner at HTML. Thank you for your help.
Meh, userboxes. Whichever, here's a possibility... -- Interiot 00:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
![]() | I'm a member of WikiProject Automobiles. |
![]() | This user is a member of WikiProject Automobiles. |
I've always been bothered by the listings for DeSoto being under De Soto, and I moved the main article today. My reasons for doing this are:
Hope that this doesn't trample on any toes or hurts feelings, but to me, it just makes sense to have the article in step with those who follow the marque. Stude62 23:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for verification. Just a quick note, I really started tearing into my old ad archive today and there is a half-space between the two parts of the name in headline text, but its not a full one. So I have spent the day counting pica's. I need a life. Stude62 00:43, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
A list has been started on this page of all vehicles with hidden lights. It's an eccentric idea, but it may be interesting to see how far it can be taken. Contributions are invited, particularly from those with knowledge of non-US models. RivGuySC 00:17, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I just stumbled over List of automotive flops and I am asking members of the project to review it for its unsupported claims and POV wording.
While I agree with some of the POV's stated on the page, the content lacks the suitable proof and/or sites to make this "List" valid as a piece of reference that I could feel is reliable enough for Wikipedia.
Also, what are the criteria for determing what a flop is? To me an automotive flop is a car that at least meets some of the following criteria:
And there is a big difference between poorly built cars with design flaws that sell well enough or have enough cache to make the manufacturer happy, and cars for which the names enter into the lexicon as a replacement for the word flop.
Again, thoughts, like other things off the top of one own head, tend to be a lot like dandruff - small and flakey. Stude62 15:39, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Fellow Wikipedians of the Wikiproject Automobile, my name is Zouf. I am a recent addition to your wikiproject, and I've had a lot of fun so far. However, I've come across a problem. If everyone would please look at the page
Luxury vehicles, they will notice that there has been quite a debate over the validity and the context of the article. In the discussion page you will find a clearly outlined debate/ argument by myself followed by a few haphazard answers from
User:Samstayton. Sam has proven to be quite the impediment in improving this article, as he has not read my argument and has been so flustered that he is replacing typos in his mass reverts. He is adding faulty info, ladies and gentlemen, and i have repeatedly disproved it.
User:Gerdbrendel disagrees with my stance on luxury vehicles, but we have had intelligent and coherent discussions to talk about it. Rather than editting my mass-edit, Sam is simply reverting to an older and disproved form of it. he will not stand to see any future edits from me.
Sam is also the person who decided to combine the V12 and W12 articles with consensus... just in case you needed to be reminded of his editting past. I am trying to keep this in a professional sense, but Sam is attacking claims of validity such as Merriam and Webster. I have even used some of the sources he has supported against him. If you need to read the entire argument just go to
Talk:Luxury vehicles. I cant stand the way he is not reading what my actual edits are.
This is clear, as he is reverting typos. I don't want to go to an administrator just yet, so will someone please review my argument and help to calm Sam's mass attack on my article or just entice him to read my edits?
I would be extremely appreciative if someone would provide their opinion in this case. Thank you to all who do this in advance. (N.B. it would be best to list your opinion on the talk page of luxury vehicles, so that the argument stays in one place)
Zouf
20:56, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Out of the 25 countries that have an appearance in Category:Automobile manufacturers by country, four are singled out to also have a defunct category as well (Britain, France, Italy and the US). The defunct category seems to have been widely ignored by editors but recently someone has moved a lot of the British companies listed under the general country heading into defunct. This got me thinking. What is a defunct auto company? With some (most?) it is obvious, they closed for whatever reason years ago and are extremely unlikely to re-appear. Others are more problematical. Take an example, MG. They are not at the moment making cars because the company has been sold but there is every intention that production will restart in 2007 under new ownership. This is surely not defunct. I have moved it back to the general category. What about companies that are still in business in other fields, that used to make cars but no longer do? They are not a defunct company but not a current car maker either. Then there is someone like Oldsmobile, which appears as both defunct and in the standard category. Can anyone be certain that GM will never using the name again.
My inclination is to dump the Defunct category, it brings up too many problems. Malcolma 12:08, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Against:That is exactly what I meant. The term "Defunt" is to POV as opposed to "Companies whose production of cars has ceased" would be a much better and more objective term. Thanks. Regards,
Signature
brendel
06:02, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Against: I would argue that not only does "good faith" not apply to the word "defunct", but that the word is also NPOV in as far as it applies to companies listed under the heading if in fact they are no longer in business.
When you start working with the definition instead of the word itself, to me, you're making things more complicated than they need be. Words have meanings, why not just use the word and not apologoize for it? Stude62 13:51, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I've been working on Hudson automobiles (had a dickens of a time finding a decent grille badge with the Hudson logo on it) and it got me thinking about the Metropolitan. Currently the car is listed under Nash Metropolitan, the name under which it was sold in the United States. Because the car was sold under four/five different brands during its model run, would it be better to list the car as the Metropolitan (automobile) (which is available as you can tell by the red link) ? Here are my thoughts:
Before placing a comment on the Nash Metropolitan page, I thought that an informal discussion would be of help. Stude62 22:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Several weeks ago another editor suggested there be new userbox for the Wiki Auto Prject which fits the userbox tables used on many user boxes. This my version of such a user box. The text is "Wiki Auto Project."
![]() | This user is a
participant in WikiProject Automobiles. |
Thanks. Regards, Signature brendel 04:59, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
On the discussion page for the auto infobox the question of whether or not prices should be mentioned in the infobox was raised. While I was originally against the idea, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. I think prices should be mentioned in the Generation infobox instead of the main infobox though. The prices would not be converted into today's dollar; users can do so themselves if they whish. According to this idea, we'd mention the price in our gen infoboxes alongside the dimesions, etc... Any thoughts? Thanks. Best Regards, Signature brendel 02:48, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, yes were are talking rough figures of course. We'd use the MSRP for this, so say for a Naviagtor it would say "$49 - $60k." But yes what currency should they be listed in? For models sold in the US only that's an easy one, we'd just have to go to the manufacturer's web-site but what in a case such as the S-Class. The prices in Euros, Punds and Dollars are easy to find for the current model but we'd technically also have to include yen, swiss francs, etc... So, we could just list pricing as it becomes available. If we only have prices in Euros and Dollars then we only list them; that's the de facto principle we're currently using, so it might work here... Any more thoughts? Thanks for your input. Signature brendel 04:33, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
There is real value in having the price - even if VERY approximate. If you were looking for a fast street car - then you might see the Arial Atom and the Ferrari Enzo - see similar performance figures - and never realise that you can buy half a dozen Atoms for the price of an Enzo. It's a very relevent figure. However, you have the problems of:
Before we have price information, I'd like to see:
SteveBaker 05:25, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I life in California and I can realte to the difference in pricing in between states. We'd use the price range given on the manufacturers web-site. For example if you go to mbusa.com you'll find a general price range for an S-Class. Then prices from all available countries in their currency would be added. But I guess my first instinct was right after all; there are just to many difficulties with mentioning prices in the genereation tables. Thanks. Regards, Signature brendel 22:17, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
It seems that prices may be tricky to handle in the infobox, though I'm not sure it's out of the question. I'm interested because price appears to be one of the most important attributes of a vehicle: "The survey, which queried people researching new cars on NADAguides.com, a leading vehicle information Web site, finds that overall purchase price is the most important factor to people shopping for a new car (46 percent), followed by make and model (31 percent). Safety and performance come in a distant third, tied at 7 percent." [7]
Some of SteveBaker's concerns may be addressable:
United States currently has the largest economy and a well-recognized currency, so using the US dollar/US market could make sense. Analogously, the "net worth" figure in Wikipedia articles about billionaires use US dollars for both Americans and non-Americans. I don't live in the US but I don't mind this approach. Or we could all use Euro. Practically speaking, isn't the majority of English Wikipedia users from the US anyway? For cars, using a non-US currency would only be necessary if a model was not available in the US.
It is interesting to know that a Mini cost $800 in 1963 because such specific data of old consumer prices is often not readily available. Assuming a reference (such as the <ref> format) is provided for each figure, a range of retail prices can be informative, such as $16,000 - $48,000 USD. (More on this below)
Using the retail price/MSRP as opposed to the street price would be more standarized. If there's a large discrepancy between street price and MSRP, this can be mentioned elsewhere in the article.
'Would there be an undue burden to keep the prices up to date?' An entry which reads, say, "1963: $800-$1000 USD" should not change much over time (this particular range only needs to be updated if someone found a lower or higher MSRP for 1963.) The next line may read "1964: $900-$1100", and so on, until the next generation starts, switching over to a new infobox (more on the format below).
'When-new' retail prices only? Sounds more consistent that way. The value of rare classic cars can be discussed elsewhere in the article or in the notes.
The price would be an optional field, so any price that can not be found would simply not show up on the infobox, or we can put "unknown". For rare cars, maybe we could have more leeway on the type of pricing information that is allowed.
'Cash back/lease prices/marketing tricks' -- we can provide the official purchase-price MSRP figures in general but also mention any special cases in the notes, using sources from the manufacturer.
'Other web sites have price information' -- wouldn't Wikipedia be more helpful if the relevant information (adequately standarized) can be found here as well? As for 'Price: $20,000', I agree that this would be unclear and volatile. How about a format like this instead:
It might need some aesthetic adjustment in the infobox, but that's a secondary issue.
One concern of this approach is that it may eventually generate a lot of references: 2/model year, say 5 years/generation, 3 generations -> 30 footnotes max. The number of notes can be lowered if we use just one note per year. Or we could have a broad price range for a whole generation, eg: MSRP (US): $20,000 (2000 minimum) - $30,000 (2006 maximum). Shawnc 15:45, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
incorrect) conclusion as the original Wiki author. The best advice we could give this hypothetical reader is: "Ignore the number we give here - go look on Cars.com".
'Do we quote prices in UK or in US or in Outer Mongolia?' - We can use only the United States MSRP for cars which are available in the US. For standarization, "US MSRP" is stated, and only US-model information is used. If a model is not available in the US, we could use the local currency of the manufacturer's country, but still retain the same citation format as the one used for the US models. For clarity, in infoboxes where prices have been entered, we can add a complementary remark like "USD prices refer to US model MSRP only" or "Euro prices refer to Germany model only", etc. If a country has a unique configuration for a model, that will be covered in the article but not in the infobox. Also, Template:Infobox Company often uses US dollars for foreign companies traded on the US exchanges. Ditto for the aforementioned "net worth" figure of individuals, so this one-country style of standarization has been acceptable in other cases.
'The sticker price is different in one country than in another' - That is the reason to stick to one market, such as the largest market, the US market. As we would not capture international price differences in the infobox, that issue would not arise. Differences between states and configurations are covered by the lower and upper price range, as discussed above. A citation would be provided for both the minimum and maximum figure. Consequently, it will become increasingly more difficult for anyone to find an even lower or higher US-specific MSRP price for a specific US model year (as opposed to the street price or used prices which are volatile over time).
While the range of prices may be large for a model year depending on various factors, resulting in a range like $13,000-20,000, it'd still generally illustrate where the price segment is. A 53% difference is insignificant compared to, say, a 5,000% difference, something not captured at all by the current infobox -- for instance, if I lived in the UK and looked up the article for a model I knew nothing about, then saw "US MSRP: 1970 model year: $1,000-$2,000 USD. 2006 model year: $10,000-20,000 USD" in the Infobox, I would instantly realize that it is a more affordable vehicle than a 'supercar' whose infobox states, in turn, "US MSRP: 2006 model year: $0.80 - $1.00 million USD". This is an extreme example, but there is still a non-trivial difference between more typical prices such as $15,000-$20,000 vs. $50,000-$70,000, which should be revealed.
The infobox is certainly not only intended for car shoppers. The approximate retail prices for a model year can effectively and objectively convey a vehicle's intended market segment, more so than a subjective statement such as "luxury car". Shawnc 06:10, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Okay, that would work, just use one currency and state the price range of all markets. Another option would be to state the car's pricing in its "homecountry" (where applicable) and the US. So for the S-Class we would include German Euro pricing and US dollar pricing. For an American market only model such as the Lincoln Navigator we would just use US dollars and for a Mini perhaps both British figures in pounds and US figures in dollars. I used the S-Class and Navigator as an example: For the S-Class it would state:
For the Lincoln Naigator, a US only model it would state:
Any suggestions? Thanks. Regards, Signature brendel 06:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
OK, I asked the posters at Supercars.net for feedback on whether they'd want to see car prices in Wikipedia articles. All but one posters expressed an interest in reading about prices/MSRP. No objection was raised regarding having old retail prices of vehicles from the past, tidbits which are said to be interesting. One Australian poster suggested using USD as a standard, while another Australian poster complained about the comparatively higher level of taxation in that country (but did not object to the use of USD on Wikipedia). A poster in Netherlands mentioned that while there will be international differences in pricing, it'd be nice to have US prices as reference. Nonetheless it was suggested that prices from multiple countries should ideally be available, which would clutter the Infobox, and that a dedicated section in each article on international prices may be a better option. The discussion can be found here.
Overall, the majority of readers on that site appear interested in seeing car prices in Wikipedia articles. Based on this, as long as the prices are available somewhere in the article, I would be ok with not having prices in the Infobox. Shawnc 14:59, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Incidentally, I looked at the Lincoln Town Car article - it's hardly a shining example. The unqualified 'mpg' and 'gal' units don't indicate whether US gallons or Imperial gallons are being talked about. IMHO, we should use liters everywhere because that's a solid unit with no room for misunderstandings (and the LTC article needs to use lowercase 'l' for liters not capital 'L'). The curb weight of the second generation should probably show 'lb' rather than inches(!) and all of the metric dimensions should really be in meters rather than millimeters. A UK reader will assume those numbers are British gallons and will come away with an even worse regard for the Lincoln's mpg figure than the apallingly bad number it really is! SteveBaker 14:46, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
The Template:Edsel now has a complete set of articles on its various full-model range from 1958-1960. I've listed written the articles all of the models - Edsel Citation, Edsel Corsair, Edsel Pacer, Edsel Ranger, Edsel Roundup, Edsel Villager and Edsel Bermuda. Of course they are far, far, far from perfect, but its a complete set and a start. If you get a chance, stop by, read through, edit, add, subtract, whatever. Stu Stude62 00:35, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
As per SteveBaker's suggestion, how about we add the following data to the generation infobox?
Shawnc 14:00, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
If performance figures are given, either they should be fairly rough estimates, or better yet, sources should be cited. Even reputable sources differ on the altitude/ambient-temperature they test at, as well as whatever correction formulas the tester applies, and we may well end up citing multiple sources which quote slightly different performance figures. I guess I generally support making this optional though (eg. include as many or as few of 0-60mph or 0-100km/h figures as editors feel are necessary). -- Interiot 06:56, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Another Wikipedian has suggested that the Renault Alliance be merged into the Renault 9 article. Your input on the matter is important and the discussion is happening on the Renault Alliance talk page. Stude62 16:05, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I wonder what's going on with the infoboxes on the Cadillac Coupe de Ville and Cadillac Eldorado articles? The headings look made-up to me, and the so-called "generations" don't really follow the actual changes in the cars. The edits are coming from IP addresses. Is this a particularly elaborate form of vandalism? RivGuySC 02:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Revert fodder! SteveBaker 02:50, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that might very well be the, shall I say, most "creative" form of vandalism I have come across in a long time. I edited both articles. Thanks. Signature brendel 03:17, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, you probably should assume good intentions and guess that rather than vandalism, this was someone merely trying to make the artice more light-hearted - not understanding the gravitas that is expected of Wikipedia articles. SteveBaker 15:37, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
My MINI (BMW) article has been in Peer review for a week now - with only one minor comment. Articles in peer review get cleaned off that list after two weeks - then I'm putting it up for Featured Article - but it REALLY needs some help to get there. Perhaps some of you expert WikiProject:Automobiles wikipedians would be so kind as to give it the once-over and report findings at: Wikipedia:Peer review/MINI (BMW)/archive1. Many thanks in advance. SteveBaker 11:55, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'm relatively new to Wikipedia and thought I'd help tidy up the Porsche 911 entry. These are some concerns I have with it:
1, The entire range of air-cooled cars (from 1963 to 1996) is called MkI, while the subsequent water-cooled cars are called MkII. This is not correct terminology and is confusing. I removed the references, but they have reappeared.
2, There are a number of glaring errors (such as the 964 Turbo being offered in 4WD form). I've corrected some but, again, some have been reintroduced.
3, Much of the information is sketchy and fluffy, while a lot is missing.
4, Many of the models detailed already have their own pages, so there is duplication of information, making the page very long.
5, How far do you go? There have been around 60 variants to the 911 over the years (and that doesn't include, say, Targa and Cabriolet versions). I have information on them all, but is that required?
6, Ideally, I'd like to start again from scratch on the page, but is that correct etiquette?
Anyway, I'm happy to work on sorting this page out, but not if my efforts are undone. I also feel I'd need help with editing and formating correctly. As I said, I'm new to this, so any guidance is welcome.
Thanks
Philsy 12:25, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
1 and 2. Should be (and are?) dealt with at the article's discussion page. If noone is explaining why they reintroduce those things, remove them again.
3. If possible, try to straighten out sketchy and fluffy information. Add anything that is missing.
4. When there is a subpage, some brief information is enough in the main page.
5. The more (verifiable) information the better! If it's getting much, create more subpages.
6. Starting from scratch is generally not a good idea, and it conflicts with wikipedia policy. It's usually better to try to rearrange existing information.
Good luck! -- Boivie 13:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
A reasonable defence against someone who repeatedly puts back information that you believe to be false is to demand references. If you have references that you can quote that back up your point and your 'opponent' does not - then, yeah, keep removing the bad content. Eventually, they'll either give up or demand arbitration - which you'll win if you have solid references and they don't. Of course if they DO have solid references - and you don't - then you should gratiously admit defeat. But either way, explain your removals both in the Edit summary and' on the Talk page. Getting a dialog started between the various editors on the Talk page is very important for the future of the article. SteveBaker 15:34, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the replies. I've tried to start a dialogue with the person involved, but he's not responded. I don't want to get involved in a tit for tat situation where we change each other's copy for the sake of it, but it would be nice to see correct information there. Philsy 15:39, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
It's possible the person doesn't know about talk pages - not all new Wiki folk understand that. You might try sticking a polite message on their own Talk: page because the next time they log in, it pops up a banner telling them that they need to go look at it. SteveBaker 15:43, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I did that, thanks. Philsy
Just an FYI... I proposed this new stub type at stub sorting proposals. A provisional list has 72 articles that could be included. -- Interiot 21:41, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
If there are support votes, it's probably better to note them on the stub sorting proposals page. Current proposal is for {{ automobile-bio-stub}} ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.› Category:automotive people stubs, to avoid people thinking the original template could be used for autobiographies (ick). -- Interiot 17:29, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'm fairly new the Wiki community to which I found while working on a project. I added an article on the Ford Proving Grounds in Arizona after noticing that a small stub was put in for the General Motors Proving Grounds, just southwest of Phoenix. I was going to ask for some help to see about the creation and expansion of Durability Testing Area (Proving Grounds) documents for all manufacturers (or as many as we can provide data for). I have a small amount of data accumulated for Ford testing facilities and will look as getting as much as possible on the other manufacturers. Anyone want to help with the cause? LSX 18:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Well I have run into an issue I was going to create more articles for more Ford Proving Grounds, but now since APG is under Ford Proving Grounds I don’t know how to name the other Ford facilities. I can either rename the article to Arizona Proving Grounds (Ford) {something I don’t know how to do} or I can add all Ford Proving Grounds into the same article. What does everyone think? LSX 22:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
You can rename an article using the 'move' tab at the top. You should probably then make a page with the original name that does a redirect to your new page and then do a 'Search' on the original name so you can fix up any other articles that point to this one. Before you do that though - you should probably discuss the move on the article's Talk page. SteveBaker 04:14, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks SteveBaker. I created the talk back page on the Ford Proving Grounds article with the namce change request. Please feel free to take a look and give your opinion on the topic. Thanks Everyone LSX 05:01, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
The official name of the place originally under the "Ford Proving Grounds" article banner is Arizona Proving Ground or "APG", in Yucca. But Ford acquired a second Arizona Proving Ground from Volvo, located northwest of Phoenix, referred to as "VAPG". In Michigan, there is a Michigan Proving Ground (MPG) in Romeo (north of Detroit), and Dearborn Proving Ground (DPG) which has since been renamed Dearborn Development Center (DDC). There was also a Florida Evaluation Center (FEC), and Ford operates a test facility in Thomas, Ontario and other locations up north for cold weather testing. Some of these test sites have been officially "closed" in terms of full time operations, but may still get some testing traffic as needs arise. I'll assemble some more details on the separate sites when I get a chance. --T-dot 09:19, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Rather than set up separate pages with short articles on each of Ford's several Proving Ground - I recommend leaving the Title of this page as is, and adding separate sections for each named facility. I have started to restructure the main article to reflect that. --T-dot 11:35, 6 April 2006 (UTC) Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ford_Proving_Grounds"
Yes, that is probably the best thing to do; first extend the current stub with sections in regards to each test site and as the need arises (one sections becomes to long) another article can be created in regards to that particular facility. Regards, Signature brendel 20:31, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Just wanted to inform everyone that additional stubcategories have been created. Some of these are subcategories of auto-stubs, and here is the list:
I've sorted most of the auto stubs, and have reduced them from about 1400 to about 175, most of which are related either to racing, magazines or people. Shouldn't be any need to create more subcategories, but if so, feel free to give me a little nod on my talkpage. Bjelleklang - talk 23:35, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi everyone, I just created this template you can use on your user page. Enjoy! -- ApolloBoy 02:59, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I have created the article List of former automotive manufacturing plants. Would like to submit it for consideration for the community to help expand, especially with regard to the many historic facilities not listed. Thanks! Autoplant 01:10, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
As someone who just stumbled on this project, I'm very surprised that there is not a standardized infobox given the maturity of the project and number of contributors. I know that there has been talk over at Layouts, but it seems very inactive. I truly dislike to criticize, but coming to a consensus about the info would make a number of very good articles even better and should be a higher priority. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 23:13, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I've added in Erskine (automobile) to Wikipedia and would appreciate any additions to the article to help make it stronger Stude62 02:42, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Is this extra page needed, or should it be a sub-entry under Mitsubishi Galant? The car looks about the same as the Galant, although it is highly modified and does mean the difference between the life and death of Mitsubishi Australia.
The differences between Galant and 380 are fewer than between the 1984 Galant and the 1985 Magna, which had a widened platform. The 380 is on the PS platform, some of its changes will be incorporated into other Galants, and is arguably not that much more different from the original than the Taiwanese Galant Grunder, which at least has some unique sheetmetal up front.
To me, Galant v. 380 is the same difference as between a Ford Cortina made in the UK and one in Australia—and historically, we have dealt with the latter as part of the main article.
Mitsubishi marketing has convinced local journalists that this is a unique car for Australians—a fact that instils a level of pride. I can understand this, as the issue of local production is a big deal Down Under. I'm asking fellow editors from around the world if they see it objectively the same way, or if antipodean editors are being swayed unwittingly. Stombs 04:15, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
The articles should probably be merged just like the article on the Ford Granada where both European and American versions (two entriely different models in this case) are merged into one article. It makes the most sense and creates more unity among car articles-something that needs desperate imporvement. Gerdbrendel 10:06, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
I have recently been confronted with the issues as to how the different types of engines should be listed in car articles. At first I tried lisiting them in the table at the top of the page but in some models such as the Lincoln Town Car or Cadillac Seville this led to monstrous tables that literally disfigured the article. In ordered to solve the problem I created little "blue boxes" as I call them for articles concerning cars that have too many engines in order for them to be listed in a page. You can see an example on the Lincoln Mark ir Lincoln Continental pages. On these pages the blue boxes provided an alternative to listing the engines inside the table and to the ununified approach of lisitng engine specs within the article. Any suggestions let me know, Thank you. Gerdbrendel 05:10, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Good Idea, A color system-easy to remember- lightblue for U.S., green for European, and red for Japanese engines. Thanks Gerdbrendel 10:14, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I just published an article Vehicle Engineering. I am fairly new at this (only my 2nd article), so I would appreciate some editing, help, etc on this. Helpful links, catagory referencing, etc, would be helpful.
Another area I would like some help with is, I can not find many references to the term Vehicle Engineering. It is not a widely used term outside the auto industry. All modern auto companies use a Vehicle Engineer, or that function. I would like to add legitimacy to this if anyone could find an web reference to VEHICLE ENGINEERING. Thanks.
I have also discovered many articles that either need to be written, or need some "automotive" editing. I will review this, and publish these at a later time. I will use this as my to-do-list, and if anyone wants to jump in and help, be my guest.
Also, I recommend the book I listed as a reference for anyone interested in the modern workings of a auto. Note, I have no affiliation with the book, just thought it was a great read, and reference to some of the things I have written here. See www.haynes.co.uk for details. -- Drussel3 14:11, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
This is a list of "TO DO's" I have come across from writing the article Vehicle Engineering. Feel free to work on any of them. I hope to eventually get to them, but you know how time gets.
Add stubs of the following, and link from the Vehicle Engineering article.
Add automotive references. Many of these articles don't need to be new, just a section related to automotive on existing articles.
Articles needing help.
I've been quite annoyed with people (mostly non-users) on the Honda Civic page changing the production dates to (in this case) non-sensical ones with new models starting on the year after they were first introduced in Japan - confusingly making the latest generation Civic only start production in "2006" even though it has been on sale in Japan since last September - which prior to 3 days ago was technically saying a car that is in production isn't actually in production! Anyway, I came across this, but it seems to be biased towards the US market. It appears in Japan that new models of cars can be released at any time of the year ( [1]). I don't know exactly about Europe - never really thought about what time of the year new cars come out...-- Zilog Jones 16:52, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I have noticed that the Mercedes-Benz pages, especially the S-Class site, as well as the Mercedes-Benz roadcar timeline feature addriviations which I make out to be platforms. I strongly beleive that these addriviation should be replaced with the actual model names such S430 or CL500 since the other abbriviations are unrecognizable to non MB-fans who probably make up the majority of Wikipedia visitors. Gerdbrendel 20:07, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi -its me again, I'm proposing a New GMC Yukon Page. Considering the recent 2007 Model year design changes and the Denali trim the Yukon has really become a model in its own right. Nearly half of the current Tahoe/Yukon page is filled with Yukon and Yukon Denali information that does not relate to the Chevy Tahoe. It has also been really difficult to describe the recent design changes for both the Yukon and Tahoe in the same article. Just like the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis have their own articles so should the Yukon and the Tahoe. Gerdbrendel 02:19, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Reading the discussion on this page I see there is a fair breadth of opinion. I have been working on Valiant (automobile) that now has a focus on the Chrysler Australia Valiant range and created a Valiant Charger article, IMHO a noteworthy car. However there is a longer article on the Plymouth Valiant. Some editors may want to merge these articles. But, from an Australian perspective, and the later model Valiants were Australian. The main article should probably have been Valiant (automobile). These articles are currently at Category:Transport in Australia, there is no clearly more appropriate category at present - suggestions Paul foord 13:26, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to merge the content from Overhead cam, Single overhead cam, Double overhead cam, Pushrod engine, Camless, OHV, Flathead engine and F-Head Engine into a single article about valvetrain configurations/layouts/whatever else you want to call it. They're all small (for the most part stubs) and contain overlapping information. I think it would be easier for the audience to refer to one comprehensive article on the subject rather than a half-dozen stubs. At the very least Single overhead cam and Double overhead cam should be incorporated into Overhead cam. Thoughts? Objections? Endorsements? -- 93JC 03:06, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I just found out there are articles for DPF, Particle filter (automotive) and Diesel Particulate Filter. These should all be merged. Does anyone with a greater understanding of engineering want to tackle it? Pc13 13:48, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi, just wanted to see if I could drum up some assistance on a few fringe automobile pages.
and, to a lesser extent,
and many related articles are trendy, cultural topics that currently attract a lot of vandalism, over-enthusiastic IP editors and lots of POV commentary. There seems to be a fairly low amount of traffic on these articles from established, policy-savvy editors.
I don't really like editing these articles, but even these loosely-related topics reflect on the quality of automotive information on WP, many of them link to more mainstream automotive articles, and some of the least reliable auto information ends up on these pages. Not to mention the POV, vandalism and copyright issues.
Anyway, I'm not begging anyone to come put out a fire, or back me up in some argument or dispute; I just think if these articles were on a few more watchlists, the general quality of this corner of WP could improve a lot.
Thanks!
Fox1
(talk)
00:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I've rewritten the LaSalle article and the Edsel articles
I undertook the rewrite on LaSalle because:
Regarding my work on the Edsel article:
As usual, my writing needs a keen and sharp eye for proofing. Still I think that some of the contributions helped to make the articles stronger than they were before. Stude62 16:02, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
The Following additional information on "Yulon GM Motors", Taiwan as of 25 Oct 2005:
After four months of operations in Taiwan, Yulon GM Motors Co (裕隆通用) is now gearing up to increase its visibility by setting up more flagship showrooms according to company executives.
It will establish three more showrooms by the first quarter of next year to bring its total to six, said Charles Yu (游文杰), brand manager for Yulon GM's Cadillac lineup.
Each of the showrooms, which offer VIP services such as bar lounges and private cubicles, will cost the company around NT$50 million (US$1.48 million), he said.
"As we have just kicked off our operations, we aim to expand in the local market by offering unique services to our clients," he said.
Set up in July 2005, Yulon GM Motors is a joint venture between Yulon Motor, the nation's third-biggest carmaker, and General Motors, the world's largest automaker. Yulon Motor holds a 51 percent stake and GM has the rest.
Yulon GM Motors introduced its third Cadillac model, the Cadillac STS, on 24 October 2005. The STS sedans come in 3.6 liter and 4.6 liter models, with price tags that start at NT$2.48 million.
The firm has been selling about 50 of the luxury Cadillacs a month with its previous models, and plans to sell 100 STS models by the end of the year, Yu said.
Yulon GM Motors has set a sales target of 500 Cadillacs for 2006, said chief executive officer Pan Fu-jen (潘扶仁).
"Buyers of the luxury sedans are not worried about rising gasoline prices; brand, identity and performance of these vehicles are far more important," Yu said.
JOINT VENTURE LAUNCHED General Motors and Yulon Motor have officially launched a joint venture established for the sale and distribution of GM vehicles in Taiwan. The venture, known as Yulon GM Motors Co. Ltd., will import Cadillac, Buick, and Opel vehicles – and by the end of next year it will also begin handling Buick vehicles that Yulon will assemble locally.
The joint venture's capital is NT$2 billion (US$62.5 million), with Yulon Motor holding a 51% equity stake and GM the remainder. A large nationwide network of showrooms and service centers is in the works, and Yulon Motor also plans to establish an engineering center to adapt Buick designs for the local market.
In addition to the Yulon GM Motors website at http://www.e-gm.com.tw
a website has also been established for Opel Taiwan at http://www.opel.com.tw
Is one already in the works?It seems that on the transport page a (train) and (aircraft) portal are already link.An automobile portal might be a good idea,it would pull some attention to the project and give a nice overview.
I can't help to notice that although this project has a lot of participants that the aircraft project 'seems' more organized.-- Technosphere83 20:09, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I wrote throttle body without really knowing what I'm talking about, so anybody who has a modicrum of understanding about it, if you could take a look and point out any glaringly obvious mistakes, that'd be great. -- Interiot 04:05, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Does the scope of this project cover things like auto magazines, car trade shows, auto racing, auto biographies, driving techniques, etc? It looks like Wikipedia:WikiProject Automobile construction is inactive, but even if it wasn't, it still wouldn't cover the bulk of these. But things like /Templates seems to be exclusively focuesed on makes and models of cars. Can I add {{ Piston engine configurations}} to that?
It seems like most of the topics are being talked about on this page, so can we go ahead and add all the relevant stub types to the main page, that are listed at the top of Category:Automobile stubs? And otherwise add more resources that reflect a broader scope? -- Interiot 04:05, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
My vote for the next stub to be created is {{ auto-bio-stub}}, as that seems to be the largest group currently in Category:Automobile stubs. Though it would probably only have 50-75 entries now, so maybe it can wait.
About Category:Automotive organization stubs, that doesn't seem to be used very much. I'm not quite sure what should go in there. Should auto magazines go in there? Can auto shows go in there? Both seem to have a lot of representation in {{ auto-stub}} currently. -- Interiot 04:05, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Does it seem like a good idea to create /Requested Images? There are a bunch of articles that are begging for at least one image, and some of them are really pretty easy. The really super-obvious ones that are currently on my list are Hood (vehicle), Odometer, Redline, and Contact patch and Roll center/ Unsprung weight needing illustrations, but there are many articles that would be helped a little by at least having a single picture. -- Interiot 04:05, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Fantastic idea. Go for it! hadley 01:56, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
If someone can spare the time, can you take a look at the Pontiac article. I think its bogged down in cliches and lingo to the point where information seems to be taking a back seat to jargon and POV statements. I was wondering if anyone got that feeling. Stude62 17:31, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I've broken off the Nash Ambassador content off of the AMC Ambassador article, and placed it into an article of its own. Stude62 15:37, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'm a member of the Wikipedia:Version_1.0_Editorial_Team, which is looking to identify quality articles in Wikipedia for future publication on CD or paper. We recently began assessing using these criteria, and we are looking for A-class, B-class, and Good articles, with no POV or copyright problems. Can you recommend any suitable articles? Please post your suggestions here. Thanks a lot! Gflores Talk 17:40, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks again for your help. Reviewing these was a pleasure, allowing me to reminisce about old Cortinas from childhood! I notice that the non-FA articles all look to be good except for one thing - unlike the FAs (at least recent ones) they don't have a good no. of refs, hence they are held back as B-Class. I would think that if you use as source material the manufacturer's model website, a book or two, and some technical magazines (ones that give technical facts rather than consumer reviews, etc.), the four articles you mention would all be A-Class, and could easily be nudged into FACs. Please feel free to add to/update this table. Many thanks, Walkerma 18:49, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I Added the references to the Town Car article and after reviewing the wiki grading guidelines have come to the conclusion that it now truly is an A-Class article. Signature brendel 02:37, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Recently, there has been much debate over whether to have separate or combined articles for similar vehicles, such as Chrysler minivans, or the GM minivans ( Chevrolet Venture. Currently, there are inconsistencies in what has been done. For example, the Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan, and Lincoln Zephyr all have their own articles as does the Dodge Caravan, Chrysler Town and Country, and Plymouth Voyager. However, there have been proposals to merge the GM and Chrysler minivan articles, and some articles, such as Chevrolet Tahoe already contain information on two or more simlar vehicles. We need to make a final and clear decision on this topic now, so we don't start arguing forever while all the articles, combined or merged, degrade in quality. Please respond here with your feedback and whether you support separate or merged articles for similar vehicles, like those shown as examples above. Airline 01:20, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I support generally support seperate articles. It can be very difficult to mention all the details of two vehicles in one article (Lincoln Zephyr and MKZ for example are best kept seperate). I also previously proposed to seperate the Yukon from the Tahoe since there are some differences to justify such seperation. So, while my vote is to keep these articles seperate, I may agree with other editors that in some cases a merger is best. I think such a decision depends on how many attributes exactely the vehicles have in common; in history, technology, and looks. Gerdbrendel 04:06, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I incline to think separate articles work best--this structure has the best chance of delivering exactly the information the reader is looking for. Related articles can easily be interlinked and organized into categories, after all--that's the power of the wiki. RivGuySC 06:55, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I am in favor of keeping articles "For example the GM and Chrysler minivans" sepatate articles. They are related but there are very noticeable differences on the interior and exterior of these cars. Through certain experiences I've come to know that most similar cars articles do better with their own separate articles. Bavaria 23:41, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I agree. I petitioned for this before, split the Yukon and Tahoe articles. Yes there are very closely related but there are enough differences between the two to jsutify a split. A quater of the article is about the Denali alone! Just like the Yukon and the Suburban have different articles, so should the Yukon and the Tahoe. Thanks. Gerdbrendel 02:45, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I think it best to keep separate articles for similar vehicles because they are separate products.-- Lihourj 11:38, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi,
Airline asked for comments here, this is what I wrote when
Bavaria asked before... I can't say I know much about these minivans (we don't have many, if any, in England) but my preference would be a single master page covering background details on the type, with seperate pages for each model which only highlight differences. Given the amount of detail available on this type, maintaining it on three or four pages is a waste of effort.
Failing that you could decide on which model is the most prevelant or definitive, create an extensive article on that, and create short pages on the other models showing only the differences. A third option would be shifting the bulk of the detail to a page such as GM U platform.
Either way, you can take this as a vote to merge any and all repeated information.
Another example of the rebadging issue is the Ford Galaxy, Volkswagen Sharan and SEAT Alhambra. akaDruid 13:24, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Airline and fellow editors, perhaps I can summarize. I have two concerns: (a) organization; (b) what an uninformed reader would seek. Separate articles seem to be the way to go and I sense most editors prefer this.
To me, there are cases when similar vehicles should be grouped together and when they should not be. If you're talking about a car that is eactly the same, just a different badge (e.g. General Motors Astra), then yes group them together. However, if the cars are distinctly different from each other (like how the USDM Ford Escort and the EUDM Ford Escort are entirely different vehicles), then I say separate them. Just my two cents. - Daniel Blanchette 20:16, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
The Lincoln Zephyr and Lincoln MKZ are not split. There is just a little mention under "Lincoln Zephyr" so people who look up the 2006 Zephyr can find some information which tells then why they should visit the 2007 Lincoln MKZ article. Since the car was called the Zephyr I think the little mention on the bottom there is just fine, besides its very user friendly. Signature brendel 17:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi Airline! Thanks for the hint, but I'm quite undecided. There are pros and cons and I think it depends on the models. E.g. for the Neon I would expect one article for all brands it's been marketed under, since the marketing focuses more on the name Neon as brand. With very similar cars as the triple Citroën C1, Peugeot 107 and Toyota Aygo or Volkswagen Sharan and Ford Galaxy (sorry, I'm European, so you get mostly European examples from me ;-), one single article may make sense, but I don't see it as necessarity, especially since the new, upcoming Galaxy won't have anything in common with Volkswagen's family vans at all, so a separate article would make more sense. And for (today) technically similar but optical completely different cars like Volkswagen Golf, Audi A3, Seat Leon, and Skoda Octavia should go definitely into different articles, not only because formerly they were completely different cars. So in general, I think separate articles are ok, if they already exist, since either the cars' history or future may be different cars -- XTaran | Talk 11:04, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia (in my opinion) is in need of an article discussing autmobile ownership and such issues as insurance, registration, autmobile maintaince, license and etc. Since this is the automobile project i come to you. Thank you for reading and hope i made a useful suggestion. Tutmosis 02:36, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Good suggestion. Here are some related articles. -- Rj 07:20, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Maybe we should create a dismbugation page named Car Ownership from which all the articles above link. Signature brendel 07:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I think their should be a main article not a disambig since this article would cover many topics. Thanks Tutmosis 02:34, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Started an actual article ' Automobile ownership' please expand or share opinion regarding its proposed deletion. Tutmosis 16:05, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I personally think that the Ford Taurus should be the example article, since it is just a smudge from featured status. -- Karrmann
Hi, Samstayton has recently proposed a merger between W12 and V12 engines since they are very similar. Considering the extend to which mergers were discussed above, this is an example of two pages that should be merged. Thanks. Signature brendel 17:24, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the way it is right now is just prefect. The disambig is there so people who type in 12 Cylinder engine, and don't really now that much about the subject, can see that there is more than one kind and chose which one they would like to reasearch. It makes it more user firendly, that's all. Signature brendel 21:45, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Posting the template at the top of each page is actually a very good idea, but still what happens to the user who just types in 12 Cylinder engine. I think the articles on vehicle marques can serve as good example. Many articles on car companies both list the vehicles made by that manufacturer (and thereby also serve as a bisambig) and feature a template. Its just like you said, a disambig doesn't do any harm and might help a few users, so I say let's just keep the disambig. Thanks. Signature brendel 22:18, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I proposed merger because I thought about the future. According to my vision, future of wikipedia is bright and it will greatly expand. We will have to consolidate related pages into one. The section on W12 is not very big and cannot get very big because only one manufacturer is involved.
Also, niche topics like flat 16 and V16 etc can also be consolidated on a single page.
Wherever there is a possibility of future expansion we should keep it as a single page, but whereever we know there wont be substantial expansion, we must consolidate. I very strongly doubt if piston engines especially V16 and above can be expanded. So it makes sense to consolidate them. Having 2 lines and 4 lines of dribble on just one page is a very bad idea. Samstayton 10:14, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
How do I sign up to become one of the editors on this automobile project? Samstayton 10:14, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed on the Chevrolet page that there have been a number of informational edits regarding what replaced specific vehicles and which vehicle were replaced by the list entry. While I understand that lists need to provide basic information about the entry is on the list (ie why is the item listed) shouldn't the hyperlink to the article contain information about what precedes and what follows something?
I normally wouldn't pose the question, but given the length of the list, it gets a bit overwhelming... Stude62 21:29, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Do we, as a project, have minimum image standards regarding automobiles?
I'm asking because I just spent a couple hours removing a number of images that were untagged, of poor composition, and very poor quality, all of which were uploaded by one user today. In almost every instance, the cars were encrusted with road dirt and salt; some were covered in snow, while others were hidden by portions of people, or snow drifts. While I can appreciate that they were most likely uploaded and added to auto articles with the best of intentions, the images didn't cut it with me.
To me, the image standards should be simple:
Any thoughts?
Stude62 20:52, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
I generally agree with all the guidelines Stude62 mentioned above but disagree with #7. There are some pictures of cars taken in private driveways that look very good (see GMC Denali. Yes, these pictures are in the minoruty but nevertheless the phrase should be revised to: "Drive-by images (i.e. pictures of car parked in private driveways, etc.) that display private home addresses or license plates should be avoided, unless they are of high quality." Otherwise I am fully in support of the guidelines proposed above. Thanks. Signature brendel 03:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I suggest a new project subpage on photos. I like those suggested guidelines in general except for number 4. We need to be clear that free images are always preferred to non-free unless the quality is ridiculously bad. As for number 7, I've been thinking of this quite a bit. Sometimes it's necessary to take a picture of a privately-owned car, especially for a rare model that you happen to see, but it should generally be frowned upon. I've been taking shots at some local used car dealers (with permission) and only uploading private cars if they're special (see Image:Buick Reatta.jpg for an example!) Another thing to add is that pictures should be uploaded to the commons instead of here and that they have copyright tags and categories. -- SFoskett 17:46, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I would like to request for a userbox to made for Wikiproject: Autmobiles for use on userpages. I know there is already a template, but having a userbox would be awesome as well. I myself much prefer userboxes. If somebody could whip one up that would be great, because unfortunatly I'm a beginner at HTML. Thank you for your help.
Meh, userboxes. Whichever, here's a possibility... -- Interiot 00:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
![]() | I'm a member of WikiProject Automobiles. |
![]() | This user is a member of WikiProject Automobiles. |
I've always been bothered by the listings for DeSoto being under De Soto, and I moved the main article today. My reasons for doing this are:
Hope that this doesn't trample on any toes or hurts feelings, but to me, it just makes sense to have the article in step with those who follow the marque. Stude62 23:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for verification. Just a quick note, I really started tearing into my old ad archive today and there is a half-space between the two parts of the name in headline text, but its not a full one. So I have spent the day counting pica's. I need a life. Stude62 00:43, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
A list has been started on this page of all vehicles with hidden lights. It's an eccentric idea, but it may be interesting to see how far it can be taken. Contributions are invited, particularly from those with knowledge of non-US models. RivGuySC 00:17, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I just stumbled over List of automotive flops and I am asking members of the project to review it for its unsupported claims and POV wording.
While I agree with some of the POV's stated on the page, the content lacks the suitable proof and/or sites to make this "List" valid as a piece of reference that I could feel is reliable enough for Wikipedia.
Also, what are the criteria for determing what a flop is? To me an automotive flop is a car that at least meets some of the following criteria:
And there is a big difference between poorly built cars with design flaws that sell well enough or have enough cache to make the manufacturer happy, and cars for which the names enter into the lexicon as a replacement for the word flop.
Again, thoughts, like other things off the top of one own head, tend to be a lot like dandruff - small and flakey. Stude62 15:39, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Fellow Wikipedians of the Wikiproject Automobile, my name is Zouf. I am a recent addition to your wikiproject, and I've had a lot of fun so far. However, I've come across a problem. If everyone would please look at the page
Luxury vehicles, they will notice that there has been quite a debate over the validity and the context of the article. In the discussion page you will find a clearly outlined debate/ argument by myself followed by a few haphazard answers from
User:Samstayton. Sam has proven to be quite the impediment in improving this article, as he has not read my argument and has been so flustered that he is replacing typos in his mass reverts. He is adding faulty info, ladies and gentlemen, and i have repeatedly disproved it.
User:Gerdbrendel disagrees with my stance on luxury vehicles, but we have had intelligent and coherent discussions to talk about it. Rather than editting my mass-edit, Sam is simply reverting to an older and disproved form of it. he will not stand to see any future edits from me.
Sam is also the person who decided to combine the V12 and W12 articles with consensus... just in case you needed to be reminded of his editting past. I am trying to keep this in a professional sense, but Sam is attacking claims of validity such as Merriam and Webster. I have even used some of the sources he has supported against him. If you need to read the entire argument just go to
Talk:Luxury vehicles. I cant stand the way he is not reading what my actual edits are.
This is clear, as he is reverting typos. I don't want to go to an administrator just yet, so will someone please review my argument and help to calm Sam's mass attack on my article or just entice him to read my edits?
I would be extremely appreciative if someone would provide their opinion in this case. Thank you to all who do this in advance. (N.B. it would be best to list your opinion on the talk page of luxury vehicles, so that the argument stays in one place)
Zouf
20:56, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Out of the 25 countries that have an appearance in Category:Automobile manufacturers by country, four are singled out to also have a defunct category as well (Britain, France, Italy and the US). The defunct category seems to have been widely ignored by editors but recently someone has moved a lot of the British companies listed under the general country heading into defunct. This got me thinking. What is a defunct auto company? With some (most?) it is obvious, they closed for whatever reason years ago and are extremely unlikely to re-appear. Others are more problematical. Take an example, MG. They are not at the moment making cars because the company has been sold but there is every intention that production will restart in 2007 under new ownership. This is surely not defunct. I have moved it back to the general category. What about companies that are still in business in other fields, that used to make cars but no longer do? They are not a defunct company but not a current car maker either. Then there is someone like Oldsmobile, which appears as both defunct and in the standard category. Can anyone be certain that GM will never using the name again.
My inclination is to dump the Defunct category, it brings up too many problems. Malcolma 12:08, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Against:That is exactly what I meant. The term "Defunt" is to POV as opposed to "Companies whose production of cars has ceased" would be a much better and more objective term. Thanks. Regards,
Signature
brendel
06:02, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Against: I would argue that not only does "good faith" not apply to the word "defunct", but that the word is also NPOV in as far as it applies to companies listed under the heading if in fact they are no longer in business.
When you start working with the definition instead of the word itself, to me, you're making things more complicated than they need be. Words have meanings, why not just use the word and not apologoize for it? Stude62 13:51, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I've been working on Hudson automobiles (had a dickens of a time finding a decent grille badge with the Hudson logo on it) and it got me thinking about the Metropolitan. Currently the car is listed under Nash Metropolitan, the name under which it was sold in the United States. Because the car was sold under four/five different brands during its model run, would it be better to list the car as the Metropolitan (automobile) (which is available as you can tell by the red link) ? Here are my thoughts:
Before placing a comment on the Nash Metropolitan page, I thought that an informal discussion would be of help. Stude62 22:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Several weeks ago another editor suggested there be new userbox for the Wiki Auto Prject which fits the userbox tables used on many user boxes. This my version of such a user box. The text is "Wiki Auto Project."
![]() | This user is a
participant in WikiProject Automobiles. |
Thanks. Regards, Signature brendel 04:59, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
On the discussion page for the auto infobox the question of whether or not prices should be mentioned in the infobox was raised. While I was originally against the idea, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. I think prices should be mentioned in the Generation infobox instead of the main infobox though. The prices would not be converted into today's dollar; users can do so themselves if they whish. According to this idea, we'd mention the price in our gen infoboxes alongside the dimesions, etc... Any thoughts? Thanks. Best Regards, Signature brendel 02:48, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, yes were are talking rough figures of course. We'd use the MSRP for this, so say for a Naviagtor it would say "$49 - $60k." But yes what currency should they be listed in? For models sold in the US only that's an easy one, we'd just have to go to the manufacturer's web-site but what in a case such as the S-Class. The prices in Euros, Punds and Dollars are easy to find for the current model but we'd technically also have to include yen, swiss francs, etc... So, we could just list pricing as it becomes available. If we only have prices in Euros and Dollars then we only list them; that's the de facto principle we're currently using, so it might work here... Any more thoughts? Thanks for your input. Signature brendel 04:33, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
There is real value in having the price - even if VERY approximate. If you were looking for a fast street car - then you might see the Arial Atom and the Ferrari Enzo - see similar performance figures - and never realise that you can buy half a dozen Atoms for the price of an Enzo. It's a very relevent figure. However, you have the problems of:
Before we have price information, I'd like to see:
SteveBaker 05:25, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I life in California and I can realte to the difference in pricing in between states. We'd use the price range given on the manufacturers web-site. For example if you go to mbusa.com you'll find a general price range for an S-Class. Then prices from all available countries in their currency would be added. But I guess my first instinct was right after all; there are just to many difficulties with mentioning prices in the genereation tables. Thanks. Regards, Signature brendel 22:17, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
It seems that prices may be tricky to handle in the infobox, though I'm not sure it's out of the question. I'm interested because price appears to be one of the most important attributes of a vehicle: "The survey, which queried people researching new cars on NADAguides.com, a leading vehicle information Web site, finds that overall purchase price is the most important factor to people shopping for a new car (46 percent), followed by make and model (31 percent). Safety and performance come in a distant third, tied at 7 percent." [7]
Some of SteveBaker's concerns may be addressable:
United States currently has the largest economy and a well-recognized currency, so using the US dollar/US market could make sense. Analogously, the "net worth" figure in Wikipedia articles about billionaires use US dollars for both Americans and non-Americans. I don't live in the US but I don't mind this approach. Or we could all use Euro. Practically speaking, isn't the majority of English Wikipedia users from the US anyway? For cars, using a non-US currency would only be necessary if a model was not available in the US.
It is interesting to know that a Mini cost $800 in 1963 because such specific data of old consumer prices is often not readily available. Assuming a reference (such as the <ref> format) is provided for each figure, a range of retail prices can be informative, such as $16,000 - $48,000 USD. (More on this below)
Using the retail price/MSRP as opposed to the street price would be more standarized. If there's a large discrepancy between street price and MSRP, this can be mentioned elsewhere in the article.
'Would there be an undue burden to keep the prices up to date?' An entry which reads, say, "1963: $800-$1000 USD" should not change much over time (this particular range only needs to be updated if someone found a lower or higher MSRP for 1963.) The next line may read "1964: $900-$1100", and so on, until the next generation starts, switching over to a new infobox (more on the format below).
'When-new' retail prices only? Sounds more consistent that way. The value of rare classic cars can be discussed elsewhere in the article or in the notes.
The price would be an optional field, so any price that can not be found would simply not show up on the infobox, or we can put "unknown". For rare cars, maybe we could have more leeway on the type of pricing information that is allowed.
'Cash back/lease prices/marketing tricks' -- we can provide the official purchase-price MSRP figures in general but also mention any special cases in the notes, using sources from the manufacturer.
'Other web sites have price information' -- wouldn't Wikipedia be more helpful if the relevant information (adequately standarized) can be found here as well? As for 'Price: $20,000', I agree that this would be unclear and volatile. How about a format like this instead:
It might need some aesthetic adjustment in the infobox, but that's a secondary issue.
One concern of this approach is that it may eventually generate a lot of references: 2/model year, say 5 years/generation, 3 generations -> 30 footnotes max. The number of notes can be lowered if we use just one note per year. Or we could have a broad price range for a whole generation, eg: MSRP (US): $20,000 (2000 minimum) - $30,000 (2006 maximum). Shawnc 15:45, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
incorrect) conclusion as the original Wiki author. The best advice we could give this hypothetical reader is: "Ignore the number we give here - go look on Cars.com".
'Do we quote prices in UK or in US or in Outer Mongolia?' - We can use only the United States MSRP for cars which are available in the US. For standarization, "US MSRP" is stated, and only US-model information is used. If a model is not available in the US, we could use the local currency of the manufacturer's country, but still retain the same citation format as the one used for the US models. For clarity, in infoboxes where prices have been entered, we can add a complementary remark like "USD prices refer to US model MSRP only" or "Euro prices refer to Germany model only", etc. If a country has a unique configuration for a model, that will be covered in the article but not in the infobox. Also, Template:Infobox Company often uses US dollars for foreign companies traded on the US exchanges. Ditto for the aforementioned "net worth" figure of individuals, so this one-country style of standarization has been acceptable in other cases.
'The sticker price is different in one country than in another' - That is the reason to stick to one market, such as the largest market, the US market. As we would not capture international price differences in the infobox, that issue would not arise. Differences between states and configurations are covered by the lower and upper price range, as discussed above. A citation would be provided for both the minimum and maximum figure. Consequently, it will become increasingly more difficult for anyone to find an even lower or higher US-specific MSRP price for a specific US model year (as opposed to the street price or used prices which are volatile over time).
While the range of prices may be large for a model year depending on various factors, resulting in a range like $13,000-20,000, it'd still generally illustrate where the price segment is. A 53% difference is insignificant compared to, say, a 5,000% difference, something not captured at all by the current infobox -- for instance, if I lived in the UK and looked up the article for a model I knew nothing about, then saw "US MSRP: 1970 model year: $1,000-$2,000 USD. 2006 model year: $10,000-20,000 USD" in the Infobox, I would instantly realize that it is a more affordable vehicle than a 'supercar' whose infobox states, in turn, "US MSRP: 2006 model year: $0.80 - $1.00 million USD". This is an extreme example, but there is still a non-trivial difference between more typical prices such as $15,000-$20,000 vs. $50,000-$70,000, which should be revealed.
The infobox is certainly not only intended for car shoppers. The approximate retail prices for a model year can effectively and objectively convey a vehicle's intended market segment, more so than a subjective statement such as "luxury car". Shawnc 06:10, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Okay, that would work, just use one currency and state the price range of all markets. Another option would be to state the car's pricing in its "homecountry" (where applicable) and the US. So for the S-Class we would include German Euro pricing and US dollar pricing. For an American market only model such as the Lincoln Navigator we would just use US dollars and for a Mini perhaps both British figures in pounds and US figures in dollars. I used the S-Class and Navigator as an example: For the S-Class it would state:
For the Lincoln Naigator, a US only model it would state:
Any suggestions? Thanks. Regards, Signature brendel 06:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
OK, I asked the posters at Supercars.net for feedback on whether they'd want to see car prices in Wikipedia articles. All but one posters expressed an interest in reading about prices/MSRP. No objection was raised regarding having old retail prices of vehicles from the past, tidbits which are said to be interesting. One Australian poster suggested using USD as a standard, while another Australian poster complained about the comparatively higher level of taxation in that country (but did not object to the use of USD on Wikipedia). A poster in Netherlands mentioned that while there will be international differences in pricing, it'd be nice to have US prices as reference. Nonetheless it was suggested that prices from multiple countries should ideally be available, which would clutter the Infobox, and that a dedicated section in each article on international prices may be a better option. The discussion can be found here.
Overall, the majority of readers on that site appear interested in seeing car prices in Wikipedia articles. Based on this, as long as the prices are available somewhere in the article, I would be ok with not having prices in the Infobox. Shawnc 14:59, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Incidentally, I looked at the Lincoln Town Car article - it's hardly a shining example. The unqualified 'mpg' and 'gal' units don't indicate whether US gallons or Imperial gallons are being talked about. IMHO, we should use liters everywhere because that's a solid unit with no room for misunderstandings (and the LTC article needs to use lowercase 'l' for liters not capital 'L'). The curb weight of the second generation should probably show 'lb' rather than inches(!) and all of the metric dimensions should really be in meters rather than millimeters. A UK reader will assume those numbers are British gallons and will come away with an even worse regard for the Lincoln's mpg figure than the apallingly bad number it really is! SteveBaker 14:46, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
The Template:Edsel now has a complete set of articles on its various full-model range from 1958-1960. I've listed written the articles all of the models - Edsel Citation, Edsel Corsair, Edsel Pacer, Edsel Ranger, Edsel Roundup, Edsel Villager and Edsel Bermuda. Of course they are far, far, far from perfect, but its a complete set and a start. If you get a chance, stop by, read through, edit, add, subtract, whatever. Stu Stude62 00:35, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
As per SteveBaker's suggestion, how about we add the following data to the generation infobox?
Shawnc 14:00, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
If performance figures are given, either they should be fairly rough estimates, or better yet, sources should be cited. Even reputable sources differ on the altitude/ambient-temperature they test at, as well as whatever correction formulas the tester applies, and we may well end up citing multiple sources which quote slightly different performance figures. I guess I generally support making this optional though (eg. include as many or as few of 0-60mph or 0-100km/h figures as editors feel are necessary). -- Interiot 06:56, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Another Wikipedian has suggested that the Renault Alliance be merged into the Renault 9 article. Your input on the matter is important and the discussion is happening on the Renault Alliance talk page. Stude62 16:05, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I wonder what's going on with the infoboxes on the Cadillac Coupe de Ville and Cadillac Eldorado articles? The headings look made-up to me, and the so-called "generations" don't really follow the actual changes in the cars. The edits are coming from IP addresses. Is this a particularly elaborate form of vandalism? RivGuySC 02:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Revert fodder! SteveBaker 02:50, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that might very well be the, shall I say, most "creative" form of vandalism I have come across in a long time. I edited both articles. Thanks. Signature brendel 03:17, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, you probably should assume good intentions and guess that rather than vandalism, this was someone merely trying to make the artice more light-hearted - not understanding the gravitas that is expected of Wikipedia articles. SteveBaker 15:37, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
My MINI (BMW) article has been in Peer review for a week now - with only one minor comment. Articles in peer review get cleaned off that list after two weeks - then I'm putting it up for Featured Article - but it REALLY needs some help to get there. Perhaps some of you expert WikiProject:Automobiles wikipedians would be so kind as to give it the once-over and report findings at: Wikipedia:Peer review/MINI (BMW)/archive1. Many thanks in advance. SteveBaker 11:55, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'm relatively new to Wikipedia and thought I'd help tidy up the Porsche 911 entry. These are some concerns I have with it:
1, The entire range of air-cooled cars (from 1963 to 1996) is called MkI, while the subsequent water-cooled cars are called MkII. This is not correct terminology and is confusing. I removed the references, but they have reappeared.
2, There are a number of glaring errors (such as the 964 Turbo being offered in 4WD form). I've corrected some but, again, some have been reintroduced.
3, Much of the information is sketchy and fluffy, while a lot is missing.
4, Many of the models detailed already have their own pages, so there is duplication of information, making the page very long.
5, How far do you go? There have been around 60 variants to the 911 over the years (and that doesn't include, say, Targa and Cabriolet versions). I have information on them all, but is that required?
6, Ideally, I'd like to start again from scratch on the page, but is that correct etiquette?
Anyway, I'm happy to work on sorting this page out, but not if my efforts are undone. I also feel I'd need help with editing and formating correctly. As I said, I'm new to this, so any guidance is welcome.
Thanks
Philsy 12:25, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
1 and 2. Should be (and are?) dealt with at the article's discussion page. If noone is explaining why they reintroduce those things, remove them again.
3. If possible, try to straighten out sketchy and fluffy information. Add anything that is missing.
4. When there is a subpage, some brief information is enough in the main page.
5. The more (verifiable) information the better! If it's getting much, create more subpages.
6. Starting from scratch is generally not a good idea, and it conflicts with wikipedia policy. It's usually better to try to rearrange existing information.
Good luck! -- Boivie 13:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
A reasonable defence against someone who repeatedly puts back information that you believe to be false is to demand references. If you have references that you can quote that back up your point and your 'opponent' does not - then, yeah, keep removing the bad content. Eventually, they'll either give up or demand arbitration - which you'll win if you have solid references and they don't. Of course if they DO have solid references - and you don't - then you should gratiously admit defeat. But either way, explain your removals both in the Edit summary and' on the Talk page. Getting a dialog started between the various editors on the Talk page is very important for the future of the article. SteveBaker 15:34, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the replies. I've tried to start a dialogue with the person involved, but he's not responded. I don't want to get involved in a tit for tat situation where we change each other's copy for the sake of it, but it would be nice to see correct information there. Philsy 15:39, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
It's possible the person doesn't know about talk pages - not all new Wiki folk understand that. You might try sticking a polite message on their own Talk: page because the next time they log in, it pops up a banner telling them that they need to go look at it. SteveBaker 15:43, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I did that, thanks. Philsy
Just an FYI... I proposed this new stub type at stub sorting proposals. A provisional list has 72 articles that could be included. -- Interiot 21:41, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
If there are support votes, it's probably better to note them on the stub sorting proposals page. Current proposal is for {{ automobile-bio-stub}} ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.› Category:automotive people stubs, to avoid people thinking the original template could be used for autobiographies (ick). -- Interiot 17:29, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'm fairly new the Wiki community to which I found while working on a project. I added an article on the Ford Proving Grounds in Arizona after noticing that a small stub was put in for the General Motors Proving Grounds, just southwest of Phoenix. I was going to ask for some help to see about the creation and expansion of Durability Testing Area (Proving Grounds) documents for all manufacturers (or as many as we can provide data for). I have a small amount of data accumulated for Ford testing facilities and will look as getting as much as possible on the other manufacturers. Anyone want to help with the cause? LSX 18:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Well I have run into an issue I was going to create more articles for more Ford Proving Grounds, but now since APG is under Ford Proving Grounds I don’t know how to name the other Ford facilities. I can either rename the article to Arizona Proving Grounds (Ford) {something I don’t know how to do} or I can add all Ford Proving Grounds into the same article. What does everyone think? LSX 22:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
You can rename an article using the 'move' tab at the top. You should probably then make a page with the original name that does a redirect to your new page and then do a 'Search' on the original name so you can fix up any other articles that point to this one. Before you do that though - you should probably discuss the move on the article's Talk page. SteveBaker 04:14, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks SteveBaker. I created the talk back page on the Ford Proving Grounds article with the namce change request. Please feel free to take a look and give your opinion on the topic. Thanks Everyone LSX 05:01, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
The official name of the place originally under the "Ford Proving Grounds" article banner is Arizona Proving Ground or "APG", in Yucca. But Ford acquired a second Arizona Proving Ground from Volvo, located northwest of Phoenix, referred to as "VAPG". In Michigan, there is a Michigan Proving Ground (MPG) in Romeo (north of Detroit), and Dearborn Proving Ground (DPG) which has since been renamed Dearborn Development Center (DDC). There was also a Florida Evaluation Center (FEC), and Ford operates a test facility in Thomas, Ontario and other locations up north for cold weather testing. Some of these test sites have been officially "closed" in terms of full time operations, but may still get some testing traffic as needs arise. I'll assemble some more details on the separate sites when I get a chance. --T-dot 09:19, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Rather than set up separate pages with short articles on each of Ford's several Proving Ground - I recommend leaving the Title of this page as is, and adding separate sections for each named facility. I have started to restructure the main article to reflect that. --T-dot 11:35, 6 April 2006 (UTC) Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ford_Proving_Grounds"
Yes, that is probably the best thing to do; first extend the current stub with sections in regards to each test site and as the need arises (one sections becomes to long) another article can be created in regards to that particular facility. Regards, Signature brendel 20:31, 6 April 2006 (UTC)