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What do we all think of these? - you know, the ones on the Selwood and most Geelong articles. I'm a strong fan, but the Pope has a differing opinion. Aaroncrick TALK 10:50, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
I've recently been going through the current player articles, updating the old links to the afl/club sites to the new format, and I've noticed that quite a few players have a detailed stats table in their articles, ie kicks marks etc, not just the games/goals in the infobox. Very few, if any, are up to date. Most stop in 2010.
I haven't removed any, but I am tempted to. Personally, I find it hard enough to keep the 22 Fremantle players games and goals tally in the infobox updated each week, to worry about detailed stats. Waiting until the end of the year is an option, but that's saying, if you want to see the recent stats, then go to the AFL tables site (or if you want, Footywire or whatever) and the {{ AflRleague}} template should be in every player's external links section. So why do we bother trying to manually do something that an automated database system does so much better?
I can see that in the high profile retired players, it might be of use, or interest, and of course it is static for retired players, so easy to keep it correct; and maybe in a couple of current articles if you can guarantee that they will be kept updated (ie the Joel Selwood FA is an obvious candidate, but I see even it isn't up to date). Do others think it the effort of keeping it up to date is worth it, or is there consensus to leave them, regardless of their completeness, or should we just remove them from most player articles? And don't get me started on the "double-banger" version I've just seen in Martin Mattner! The-Pope ( talk) 14:35, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
In the statistics table there are two options: the regular format and the ruckman format. First question: Is there a reason that for ruckmen the stats are in a different order? I can understand that there is an added column for hit-outs (as that is a major part of a ruckman's work) but why not just add it instead of all the order being different? Second question: Some players (such as Dane Swan and Alan Toovey) are not ruckmen, but have been known to ruck when needed (and have hit-outs listed in their stats on AFL Tables). Currently (amongst the players I looked at) their hit-outs are not included in their stats. Anyone know what reasoning there is behind this? Should their hit-outs be listed and their format changed to the ruckman format? -- SuperJew ( talk) 18:24, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
Flickerd (or anyone else), would you be able to reorder the ruck then? The sooner it's done, the less transclusions it'll be. -- SuperJew ( talk) 11:43, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
This didn't take anywhere near as long as I thought it would, but this has been all fixed now and all the ruckman stats tables now match the order of the non-ruckman stats table with hitouts added onto the end, so all future transclusions will now need to match that order (below). Thanks,
Flickerd (
talk)
08:28, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Season | Team | No. | Games | Totals | Averages (per game) | ||||||||||||||
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G | B | K | H | D | M | T | H/O | G | B | K | H | D | M | T | H/O |
Not sure if I'm going insane but I think the stats boxes have been changed to align differently to in the past. I'm certain the total row used to align directly to those above at least. Can anyone confirm if this is true or I'm just losing my mind and never notice this before. ( talk) 6:58, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
I've added votes boxes to several AFLW players' articles (having added statistics and honours/achievements sections to these articles, among others, previously) and would argue that, because the Brownlow Medal and AFL Women's best and fairest are the highest individual honours in their respective competitions (and in the sport as a whole for males and females, respectively), it's something that should be added at all AFL and AFLW player articles (or at least those that contain an honours/achievements section – there are a lot of articles that don't even have a statistics section, let alone that). I was reverted multiple times at one article by SuperJew (who claimed that this matter had already been discussed but couldn't tell me where) because that player didn't have any votes in their two seasons thus far. My main argument here is that I still think a votes box should be added regardless of whether the player has any votes, largely because of the importance of the award. I can perhaps understand it not being required if the player goes through their whole career without earning a single vote, but at the same time, how will we know that the player didn't receive any votes – is that not still just as important? That would be like having a statistics section without the statistics table, linking to AFL Tables and/or Australian Football, and indicating that a player's statistics can be found there. If there is already a consensus in place on this matter, then I was unaware, and would at least like to read the discussion, but if not, then I want to be heard out here. 4TheWynne (talk) (contribs) 07:43, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
I'd be more than happy with votes going in the statistics table. I don't think it's entirely necessary to have placings on their own, other than being mentioned in the article body, but at least having the votes in the statistics table means that they are perhaps less redundant and they can be viewed in the same way as they are at the aforementioned AFL Tables and Australian Football sites (where the votes are found in the same table as the statistics). Though I understand it would mean going through every VFL/AFL and AFLW players' articles (at least those which contain a statistics and/or honours and achievements section), in terms of the table itself, I think it would ideally be listed next to games as "Votes", where it would still come under totals, and would link to the respective award. For example, this would be a men's table:
Season | Team | No. | Games | Votes | G | B | K | H | D | M | T | G | B | K | H | D | M | T |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Totals | Averages (per game) |
This would not affect the existing legend template, which refers only to playing statistics, however I think that it should be moved to Template:Australian rules football statistics legend to achieve gender neutrality (that, and it really is just a statistics key). I then think that there should be a separate start template for AFL Women's players – Template:AFLW player statistics start – which would look exactly the same, except it would link to the AFL Women's best and fairest and not the Brownlow Medal:
Season | Team | No. | Games | Votes | G | B | K | H | D | M | T | G | B | K | H | D | M | T |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Totals | Averages (per game) |
This would affect all ruck-related templates as well (including having separate templates, all of which contain "ruck" instead "ruckman", for the aforementioned reasons). How would people feel about this as an alternate proposal? 4TheWynne (talk) (contribs) 02:39, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
Season | Team | No. | Games | G | B | K | H | D | M | T | G | B | K | H | D | M | T | Votes |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Totals | Averages (per game) |
Below is an example of what a player's statistics table would like with the above changes. In this case, I've used Jobe Watson:
Example
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This should give the best indication. 4TheWynne (talk) (contribs) 08:00, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
If votes column is added to template before transclusions are updated
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I don't really see too much of a difference/the big deal between one approach (above) or the other (below), and I don't want to sound like I'm trying to argue for one of them, as that's the least of our concerns.
If transclusions are updated before votes column is added to template
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Anyway, to clarify (and summarise all of my points made thus far), these are the changes that I am proposing:
Hopefully this all makes sense, anyway. 4TheWynne (talk) (contribs) 11:35, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
But yes, to summarise, I'm happy with that plan, and with the overall change. I've completed the moves, and I've also created the women's start templates – updating the women's players will obviously be easy, as you can just change the template names and add the votes in one go, as the new templates don't exist at any articles yet. 4TheWynne (talk) (contribs) 13:52, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
Also, I'll add two points: 1. I think the title should be "Votes", but rather a shortened version like the rest (BR or BV), 2. I don't see the problem of having average votes per game as the source AFL Tables does that. -- SuperJew ( talk) 06:26, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
Hey everyone – just thought I'd bring something to your attention that I thought might be worthy of discussion. I've seen numerous editors add back the background colour denoting a premiership win (see example below) in the statistics sections of players in the last couple of years, most notably – and recently – Johnny Stormer (a clear-cut case of WP:ICANTHEARYOU).
2019† |
Before I get into what I wanted to propose, I was under the impression that there was a consensus disallowing this, that the awards are mentioned enough elsewhere in the article – could someone please confirm whether or not this is the case? Thanks. 4TheWynne (talk) (contribs) 01:06, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
I'll get into it anyway, as I was going to propose this regardless unless people were vehemently against it. I was actually looking to propose that both premierships and Brownlow Medal/AFL Women's best and fairest wins be represented on the statistics table, as I thought including two of the three highest accolades in Australian rules football (the other being the Norm Smith Medal/AFLW-equivalent) would actually be a cool touch, particularly now that we're including votes in the table, and it would make these tables on Wikipedia even more helpful than on other websites which just display statistics. I decided against including ineligibility for the best and fairest awards, as it would be too difficult to research every season that every player was ineligible through suspension, whereas just the two new colours would be easy to add, and would be the most I would add to the current group of colours – one applies to the season column, and the other applies to the votes column.
Below is the amended table with all colours included (this example is for VFL/AFL, whereas the last row of the AFLW table would read "Won that season's AFL Women's best and fairest award" instead and then be changed again once the award's given an official name). The pre-existing colours have been altered slightly for visibility/brightness, and the wording of some of the rows has also been changed so that they're less ambiguous, something that another user proposed on my talk page when inquiring specifically about the wording (e.g. specifying home-and-away season).
Led the league for the home-and-away season only | |
Led the league after finals only | |
Led the league for the home-and-away season and after finals | |
Played in that season's premiership team | |
Won that season's Brownlow Medal |
With this in mind, rather than have the actual text for the table in articles, we could create templates for each individual combination, listed below (even if some of them are rarely or never used). This way, rather than having to try and find the colour elsewhere when one needs to be added, another letter can just be added to the template, and it will change to a different template which has that extra row of the table.
Below is an example of a player's statistics table with all of the colours in use (I've used Dane Swan who, to my knowledge, is the only player whose statistics table would require all five colours).
Example
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This took a fair while to put together – what does everyone think? I know that there are some who don't really care for having these statistics tables or are against having them altogether, but I'm a massive fan of them, and feel like these proposed changes could benefit the project rather than hinder it – interested to know everyone's thoughts. 4TheWynne (talk) (contribs) 08:34, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
Assuming we were to make symbols a permanent addition to colours in the significant statistics key (however we choose to format it/combine with other templates – refer to this discussion as well), how would everyone feel about something like this:
† | Led the league for the home-and-away season only |
‡ | Led the league after finals only |
§ | Led the league for the home-and-away season and after finals |
# | Played in that season's premiership team |
± | Won that season's Brownlow Medal |
I don't know if there are any rules as to which ones we can and can't use, but I tried to avoid currencies. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 02:00, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Hi everyone,
Given that we can assign all recognized VFL/AFL players an external link to their career statistics via AFL Tables, I feel it is pointless to include their statistics in their Wikipedia article. It takes up space that can be used for discussing their career in prose format. I'd like to hear what other community members think about this.
Cheers Kingjezza ( talk) 06:20, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
Hello everyone, the Player significant statistics ( e.g. Australian rules football statistics HS) shading on player's AFL playing statistics sections of articles is in need of some work. @ 4TheWynne has noted ( User talk:4TheWynne#Significant statistics) "unfortunately, with these ones, we just have to be all over it and do it ourselves."
I recently added Clayton Oliver's handball records in 2017 and 2018, through much manual work (by counting back from the last final to the end of the home and away season, comparing him to Mitchell and Neale). This isn't really sustainable, as it is very easy to overlook statistics without clear/obvious winners, , easy to make mistakes, and could potentially pose a data problem with e.g. a player that played exceptionally well for one game then was injured for the rest of the season, but whose statistics are hidden and thus may be missed when doing manual average calculations.
As I recently stumbled across this, I assume there are many more records that are either wrong or incomplete (especially older records).
Does anyone have any suggestions as to what can be done? Is it simply a case of checking every total and average in AFL StatsPro/AFLtables and working backwards? Is anyone keen to help calculate back to 2010/2000 (or further) and "complete" the data? DiamondIIIXX ( talk) 23:07, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
Last time I read the AFL Record, it used to carry season stats leaders - if that's still the case, then the Finals Week 1 Record is the reference you need. Aspirex ( talk) 00:22, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
I had assumed you were talking about accumulated stats and not averages. Considering the process of averaging inherently normalizes the benefit a finalist has over a non finalist in the accumulation of statistics, my suggestion is that the 'average' statistics should only show the complete season leader and that no effort should be put into determining the h&a leader - the actual distinction between the two titles is trivial, and the amount of back calculating you're describing would be close to WP:OR (although acceptable with consensus). Aspirex ( talk) 02:29, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
Sorry if I'm a little late to the party here, but I'm strongly in favour of continuing to differentiate between the three (home-and-away only, finals only and whole season) for totals and averages. My reasoning is sort of an extension to my argument as to why we should have the statistics table on Wikipedia, and that's that if there's any way we can make player articles more interesting for readers in a way that other sources don't (e.g. AFL Tables, Australian Football, etc. don't include any of what we're talking about here), we should. I think it's interesting to sometimes have a statistic/average that one player might lead for the home-and-away season but then have that overtaken by/fall below someone in the finals; for example, we had an instance in the AFLW this year where Brittany Bonnici led total and average disposals for the home-and-away season (222 @ 24.7), and was overtaken for total disposals by teammate Brianna Davey after finals, but both players' averages were below Alyce Parker and Georgia Patrikios (both 23.9) after finals. My point here is that, while it might take a little while to research for past seasons that don't already have these covered, these statistics aren't overly difficult to stay on top of for the current season and it makes the statistics table more interesting than just having the player who leads a statistic at the end of the season. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 12:25, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
Hi, I have just closed the discussion and deleted the templates. I suspect the affected articles require some further amendments, but I wasn't sure the best way to execute those changes. I felt it best to defer that decision to the interested editors above. The list of articles can be found here. ✗ plicit 01:00, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
I see the deletion discussion ended with a delete result and the template has been deleted from player pages ( for example). Problem is that the statistics tables themselves still have the background, but now it is unexplained (see prev example). How do we go around removing the background colours from all pages the templates were used on? -- SuperJew ( talk) 07:46, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
@ 4TheWynne @ SuperJew I've recently done a few edits, updating many legends and tables with the new template, except for just the P (Premiership players).
Further changes that will need to be done include: AFL Womens - I haven't been able to access the statistics for these, so it would be good if someone else can finish this off with the correct templates.
I know this involves updating these players(as I recorded who had what templates before I submitted the TFD):
I also know that there were 110 players with just the "P" template, and so those players will need to have their template updated. (Can someone do this automatically with Auto Wiki Browser? I don't use it.) It would be good if the rucks & non-rucks could all have their template replaced with the new one.
Once those things are done, I will go through each year in AFLTables and update any players we've missed. I know West Coast's Josh Kennedy is one of them. DiamondIIIXX ( talk) 02:13, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Hey guys – hope everyone's doing well. Yes, it's back to that old topic again... some of us love them, some of us love to hate them... statistics tables. But don't worry, this one's a fun one.
The way that AFL/AFLW statistics tables are currently formatted, we have manually-added zebra stripes that bunch up and look all messy when you sort a column, so long story short, I went in search of a solution (after trying JavaScript) and was eventually presented with Template:Alternating rows table. All we would need to do is change the format at the AFL player statistics start templates and remove the manual stripes from all of the existing tables, and voilà, we've made yet another accessibility-related improvement to these tables. Take, for example, Tony Lockett's table, as it's currently formatted:
Season | Team | No. | Games | Totals | Averages (per game) | ||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
G | B | K | H | D | M | T | G | B | K | H | D | M | T | ||||
1983 | St Kilda | 37 | 12 | 19 | 17 | 76 | 26 | 102 | 44 | — | 1.6 | 1.4 | 6.3 | 2.2 | 8.5 | 3.7 | — |
1984 | St Kilda | 14 | 20 | 77 | 44 | 146 | 19 | 165 | 108 | — | 3.9 | 2.2 | 7.3 | 1.0 | 8.3 | 5.4 | — |
1985 | St Kilda | 14 | 21 | 79 | 22 | 146 | 32 | 178 | 112 | — | 3.8 | 1.0 | 7.0 | 1.5 | 8.5 | 5.3 | — |
1986 | St Kilda | 14 | 18 | 60 | 29 | 119 | 36 | 155 | 85 | — | 3.3 | 1.6 | 6.6 | 2.0 | 8.6 | 4.7 | — |
1987 | St Kilda | 14 | 22 | 117 | 52 | 226 | 49 | 275 | 164 | 16 | 5.3 | 2.4 | 10.3 | 2.2 | 12.5 | 7.5 | 0.7 |
1988 | St Kilda | 4 | 8 | 35 | 19 | 65 | 19 | 84 | 44 | 6 | 4.4 | 2.4 | 8.1 | 2.4 | 10.5 | 5.5 | 0.8 |
1989 | St Kilda | 4 | 11 | 78 | 24 | 122 | 18 | 140 | 92 | 5 | 7.1 | 2.2 | 11.1 | 1.6 | 12.7 | 8.4 | 0.5 |
1990 | St Kilda | 4 | 12 | 65 | 34 | 112 | 16 | 128 | 84 | 11 | 5.4 | 2.8 | 9.3 | 1.3 | 10.7 | 7.0 | 0.9 |
1991 | St Kilda | 4 | 17 | 127 | 51 | 190 | 33 | 223 | 140 | 7 | 7.5 | 3.0 | 11.2 | 1.9 | 13.1 | 8.2 | 0.4 |
1992 | St Kilda | 4 | 22 | 132 | 58 | 214 | 30 | 244 | 157 | 12 | 6.0 | 2.6 | 9.7 | 1.4 | 11.1 | 7.1 | 0.5 |
1993 | St Kilda | 4 | 10 | 53 | 12 | 85 | 26 | 111 | 63 | 7 | 5.3 | 1.2 | 8.5 | 2.6 | 11.1 | 6.3 | 0.7 |
1994 | St Kilda | 4 | 10 | 56 | 26 | 100 | 16 | 116 | 76 | 7 | 5.6 | 2.6 | 10.0 | 1.6 | 11.6 | 7.6 | 0.7 |
1995 | Sydney | 4 | 19 | 110 | 44 | 176 | 42 | 218 | 139 | 16 | 5.8 | 2.3 | 9.3 | 2.2 | 11.5 | 7.3 | 0.8 |
1996 | Sydney | 4 | 22 | 121 | 63 | 212 | 45 | 257 | 168 | 21 | 5.5 | 2.9 | 9.6 | 2.0 | 11.7 | 7.6 | 1.0 |
1997 | Sydney | 4 | 12 | 37 | 21 | 65 | 23 | 88 | 50 | 7 | 3.1 | 1.8 | 5.4 | 1.9 | 7.3 | 4.2 | 0.6 |
1998 | Sydney | 4 | 23 | 109 | 36 | 167 | 41 | 208 | 121 | 9 | 4.7 | 1.6 | 7.3 | 1.8 | 9.0 | 5.3 | 0.4 |
1999 | Sydney | 4 | 19 | 82 | 38 | 141 | 27 | 168 | 112 | 15 | 4.3 | 2.0 | 7.4 | 1.4 | 8.8 | 5.9 | 0.8 |
2002 | Sydney | 46 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 5 | 2 | 7 | 1 | 3 | 1.0 | 0.0 | 1.7 | 0.7 | 2.3 | 0.3 | 1.0 |
Career | 281 | 1360 | 590 | 2367 | 500 | 2867 | 1760 | 142 | 4.8 | 2.1 | 8.4 | 1.8 | 10.2 | 6.3 | 0.7 |
Here is what the table would look like with the start template reformatted, the manual stripes removed and the other changes applied that we've discussed here but haven't yet applied to this table:
Season | Team | No. | Games | Totals | Averages (per game) | Votes | ||||||||||||
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G | B | K | H | D | M | T | G | B | K | H | D | M | T | |||||
1983 | St Kilda | 37 | 12 | 19 | 17 | 76 | 26 | 102 | 44 | — | 1.6 | 1.4 | 6.3 | 2.2 | 8.5 | 3.7 | — | 0 |
1984 | St Kilda | 14 | 20 | 77 | 44 | 146 | 19 | 165 | 108 | — | 3.9 | 2.2 | 7.3 | 1.0 | 8.3 | 5.4 | — | 7 |
1985 | St Kilda | 14 | 21 | 79 | 22 | 146 | 32 | 178 | 112 | — | 3.8 | 1.0 | 7.0 | 1.5 | 8.5 | 5.3 | — | 3 |
1986 | St Kilda | 14 | 18 | 60 | 29 | 119 | 36 | 155 | 85 | — | 3.3 | 1.6 | 6.6 | 2.0 | 8.6 | 4.7 | — | 1 |
1987 | St Kilda | 14 | 22 | 117† | 52 | 226 | 49 | 275 | 164 | 16 | 5.3† | 2.4 | 10.3 | 2.2 | 12.5 | 7.5 | 0.7 | 20± |
1988 | St Kilda | 4 | 8 | 35 | 19 | 65 | 19 | 84 | 44 | 6 | 4.4 | 2.4 | 8.1 | 2.4 | 10.5 | 5.5 | 0.8 | 3 |
1989 | St Kilda | 4 | 11 | 78 | 24 | 122 | 18 | 140 | 92 | 5 | 7.1† | 2.2 | 11.1 | 1.6 | 12.7 | 8.4 | 0.5 | 10 |
1990 | St Kilda | 4 | 12 | 65 | 34 | 112 | 16 | 128 | 84 | 11 | 5.4† | 2.8† | 9.3 | 1.3 | 10.7 | 7.0 | 0.9 | 3 |
1991 | St Kilda | 4 | 17 | 127† | 51 | 190 | 33 | 223 | 140 | 7 | 7.5† | 3.0 | 11.2 | 1.9 | 13.1 | 8.2 | 0.4 | 16 |
1992 | St Kilda | 4 | 22 | 132 | 58 | 214 | 30 | 244 | 157 | 12 | 6.0 | 2.6 | 9.7 | 1.4 | 11.1 | 7.1 | 0.5 | 10 |
1993 | St Kilda | 4 | 10 | 53 | 12 | 85 | 26 | 111 | 63 | 7 | 5.3 | 1.2 | 8.5 | 2.6 | 11.1 | 6.3 | 0.7 | 5 |
1994 | St Kilda | 4 | 10 | 56 | 26 | 100 | 16 | 116 | 76 | 7 | 5.6† | 2.6 | 10.0 | 1.6 | 11.6 | 7.6 | 0.7 | 7 |
1995 | Sydney | 4 | 19 | 110 | 44 | 176 | 42 | 218 | 139 | 16 | 5.8† | 2.3 | 9.3 | 2.2 | 11.5 | 7.3 | 0.8 | 7 |
1996 | Sydney | 4 | 22 | 121† | 63† | 212 | 45 | 257 | 168 | 21 | 5.5† | 2.9† | 9.6 | 2.0 | 11.7 | 7.6 | 1.0 | 14 |
1997 | Sydney | 4 | 12 | 37 | 21 | 65 | 23 | 88 | 50 | 7 | 3.1 | 1.8 | 5.4 | 1.9 | 7.3 | 4.2 | 0.6 | 1 |
1998 | Sydney | 4 | 23 | 109† | 36 | 167 | 41 | 208 | 121 | 9 | 4.7† | 1.6 | 7.3 | 1.8 | 9.0 | 5.3 | 0.4 | 15 |
1999 | Sydney | 4 | 19 | 82 | 38 | 141 | 27 | 168 | 112 | 15 | 4.3† | 2.0 | 7.4 | 1.4 | 8.8 | 5.9 | 0.8 | 6 |
2002 | Sydney | 46 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 5 | 2 | 7 | 1 | 3 | 1.0 | 0.0 | 1.7 | 0.7 | 2.3 | 0.3 | 1.0 | 0 |
Career | 281 | 1360 | 590 | 2367 | 500 | 2867 | 1760 | 142 | 4.8 | 2.1 | 8.4 | 1.8 | 10.2 | 6.3 | 0.7 | 128 |
Would everyone be onboard with this? I know some might look at it as "another thing to add to the list" when it comes to these tables, but it's a necessary and pretty straightforward change, to the point that I'd be surprised if anyone opposed it; nevertheless, keen to know people's thoughts – thanks. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 16:07, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
P.S. Someone needs to really get through to Johnny Stormer, again, about highlighting career-high statistics in bold, basketball-style – it should just be a flat no, as we already highlight key statistics in bold (like above), but they keep ignoring me.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
What do we all think of these? - you know, the ones on the Selwood and most Geelong articles. I'm a strong fan, but the Pope has a differing opinion. Aaroncrick TALK 10:50, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
I've recently been going through the current player articles, updating the old links to the afl/club sites to the new format, and I've noticed that quite a few players have a detailed stats table in their articles, ie kicks marks etc, not just the games/goals in the infobox. Very few, if any, are up to date. Most stop in 2010.
I haven't removed any, but I am tempted to. Personally, I find it hard enough to keep the 22 Fremantle players games and goals tally in the infobox updated each week, to worry about detailed stats. Waiting until the end of the year is an option, but that's saying, if you want to see the recent stats, then go to the AFL tables site (or if you want, Footywire or whatever) and the {{ AflRleague}} template should be in every player's external links section. So why do we bother trying to manually do something that an automated database system does so much better?
I can see that in the high profile retired players, it might be of use, or interest, and of course it is static for retired players, so easy to keep it correct; and maybe in a couple of current articles if you can guarantee that they will be kept updated (ie the Joel Selwood FA is an obvious candidate, but I see even it isn't up to date). Do others think it the effort of keeping it up to date is worth it, or is there consensus to leave them, regardless of their completeness, or should we just remove them from most player articles? And don't get me started on the "double-banger" version I've just seen in Martin Mattner! The-Pope ( talk) 14:35, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
In the statistics table there are two options: the regular format and the ruckman format. First question: Is there a reason that for ruckmen the stats are in a different order? I can understand that there is an added column for hit-outs (as that is a major part of a ruckman's work) but why not just add it instead of all the order being different? Second question: Some players (such as Dane Swan and Alan Toovey) are not ruckmen, but have been known to ruck when needed (and have hit-outs listed in their stats on AFL Tables). Currently (amongst the players I looked at) their hit-outs are not included in their stats. Anyone know what reasoning there is behind this? Should their hit-outs be listed and their format changed to the ruckman format? -- SuperJew ( talk) 18:24, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
Flickerd (or anyone else), would you be able to reorder the ruck then? The sooner it's done, the less transclusions it'll be. -- SuperJew ( talk) 11:43, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
This didn't take anywhere near as long as I thought it would, but this has been all fixed now and all the ruckman stats tables now match the order of the non-ruckman stats table with hitouts added onto the end, so all future transclusions will now need to match that order (below). Thanks,
Flickerd (
talk)
08:28, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Season | Team | No. | Games | Totals | Averages (per game) | ||||||||||||||
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G | B | K | H | D | M | T | H/O | G | B | K | H | D | M | T | H/O |
Not sure if I'm going insane but I think the stats boxes have been changed to align differently to in the past. I'm certain the total row used to align directly to those above at least. Can anyone confirm if this is true or I'm just losing my mind and never notice this before. ( talk) 6:58, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
I've added votes boxes to several AFLW players' articles (having added statistics and honours/achievements sections to these articles, among others, previously) and would argue that, because the Brownlow Medal and AFL Women's best and fairest are the highest individual honours in their respective competitions (and in the sport as a whole for males and females, respectively), it's something that should be added at all AFL and AFLW player articles (or at least those that contain an honours/achievements section – there are a lot of articles that don't even have a statistics section, let alone that). I was reverted multiple times at one article by SuperJew (who claimed that this matter had already been discussed but couldn't tell me where) because that player didn't have any votes in their two seasons thus far. My main argument here is that I still think a votes box should be added regardless of whether the player has any votes, largely because of the importance of the award. I can perhaps understand it not being required if the player goes through their whole career without earning a single vote, but at the same time, how will we know that the player didn't receive any votes – is that not still just as important? That would be like having a statistics section without the statistics table, linking to AFL Tables and/or Australian Football, and indicating that a player's statistics can be found there. If there is already a consensus in place on this matter, then I was unaware, and would at least like to read the discussion, but if not, then I want to be heard out here. 4TheWynne (talk) (contribs) 07:43, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
I'd be more than happy with votes going in the statistics table. I don't think it's entirely necessary to have placings on their own, other than being mentioned in the article body, but at least having the votes in the statistics table means that they are perhaps less redundant and they can be viewed in the same way as they are at the aforementioned AFL Tables and Australian Football sites (where the votes are found in the same table as the statistics). Though I understand it would mean going through every VFL/AFL and AFLW players' articles (at least those which contain a statistics and/or honours and achievements section), in terms of the table itself, I think it would ideally be listed next to games as "Votes", where it would still come under totals, and would link to the respective award. For example, this would be a men's table:
Season | Team | No. | Games | Votes | G | B | K | H | D | M | T | G | B | K | H | D | M | T |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Totals | Averages (per game) |
This would not affect the existing legend template, which refers only to playing statistics, however I think that it should be moved to Template:Australian rules football statistics legend to achieve gender neutrality (that, and it really is just a statistics key). I then think that there should be a separate start template for AFL Women's players – Template:AFLW player statistics start – which would look exactly the same, except it would link to the AFL Women's best and fairest and not the Brownlow Medal:
Season | Team | No. | Games | Votes | G | B | K | H | D | M | T | G | B | K | H | D | M | T |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Totals | Averages (per game) |
This would affect all ruck-related templates as well (including having separate templates, all of which contain "ruck" instead "ruckman", for the aforementioned reasons). How would people feel about this as an alternate proposal? 4TheWynne (talk) (contribs) 02:39, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
Season | Team | No. | Games | G | B | K | H | D | M | T | G | B | K | H | D | M | T | Votes |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Totals | Averages (per game) |
Below is an example of what a player's statistics table would like with the above changes. In this case, I've used Jobe Watson:
Example
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This should give the best indication. 4TheWynne (talk) (contribs) 08:00, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
If votes column is added to template before transclusions are updated
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I don't really see too much of a difference/the big deal between one approach (above) or the other (below), and I don't want to sound like I'm trying to argue for one of them, as that's the least of our concerns.
If transclusions are updated before votes column is added to template
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Anyway, to clarify (and summarise all of my points made thus far), these are the changes that I am proposing:
Hopefully this all makes sense, anyway. 4TheWynne (talk) (contribs) 11:35, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
But yes, to summarise, I'm happy with that plan, and with the overall change. I've completed the moves, and I've also created the women's start templates – updating the women's players will obviously be easy, as you can just change the template names and add the votes in one go, as the new templates don't exist at any articles yet. 4TheWynne (talk) (contribs) 13:52, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
Also, I'll add two points: 1. I think the title should be "Votes", but rather a shortened version like the rest (BR or BV), 2. I don't see the problem of having average votes per game as the source AFL Tables does that. -- SuperJew ( talk) 06:26, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
Hey everyone – just thought I'd bring something to your attention that I thought might be worthy of discussion. I've seen numerous editors add back the background colour denoting a premiership win (see example below) in the statistics sections of players in the last couple of years, most notably – and recently – Johnny Stormer (a clear-cut case of WP:ICANTHEARYOU).
2019† |
Before I get into what I wanted to propose, I was under the impression that there was a consensus disallowing this, that the awards are mentioned enough elsewhere in the article – could someone please confirm whether or not this is the case? Thanks. 4TheWynne (talk) (contribs) 01:06, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
I'll get into it anyway, as I was going to propose this regardless unless people were vehemently against it. I was actually looking to propose that both premierships and Brownlow Medal/AFL Women's best and fairest wins be represented on the statistics table, as I thought including two of the three highest accolades in Australian rules football (the other being the Norm Smith Medal/AFLW-equivalent) would actually be a cool touch, particularly now that we're including votes in the table, and it would make these tables on Wikipedia even more helpful than on other websites which just display statistics. I decided against including ineligibility for the best and fairest awards, as it would be too difficult to research every season that every player was ineligible through suspension, whereas just the two new colours would be easy to add, and would be the most I would add to the current group of colours – one applies to the season column, and the other applies to the votes column.
Below is the amended table with all colours included (this example is for VFL/AFL, whereas the last row of the AFLW table would read "Won that season's AFL Women's best and fairest award" instead and then be changed again once the award's given an official name). The pre-existing colours have been altered slightly for visibility/brightness, and the wording of some of the rows has also been changed so that they're less ambiguous, something that another user proposed on my talk page when inquiring specifically about the wording (e.g. specifying home-and-away season).
Led the league for the home-and-away season only | |
Led the league after finals only | |
Led the league for the home-and-away season and after finals | |
Played in that season's premiership team | |
Won that season's Brownlow Medal |
With this in mind, rather than have the actual text for the table in articles, we could create templates for each individual combination, listed below (even if some of them are rarely or never used). This way, rather than having to try and find the colour elsewhere when one needs to be added, another letter can just be added to the template, and it will change to a different template which has that extra row of the table.
Templates
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Key
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Below is an example of a player's statistics table with all of the colours in use (I've used Dane Swan who, to my knowledge, is the only player whose statistics table would require all five colours).
Example
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This took a fair while to put together – what does everyone think? I know that there are some who don't really care for having these statistics tables or are against having them altogether, but I'm a massive fan of them, and feel like these proposed changes could benefit the project rather than hinder it – interested to know everyone's thoughts. 4TheWynne (talk) (contribs) 08:34, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
Assuming we were to make symbols a permanent addition to colours in the significant statistics key (however we choose to format it/combine with other templates – refer to this discussion as well), how would everyone feel about something like this:
† | Led the league for the home-and-away season only |
‡ | Led the league after finals only |
§ | Led the league for the home-and-away season and after finals |
# | Played in that season's premiership team |
± | Won that season's Brownlow Medal |
I don't know if there are any rules as to which ones we can and can't use, but I tried to avoid currencies. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 02:00, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Hi everyone,
Given that we can assign all recognized VFL/AFL players an external link to their career statistics via AFL Tables, I feel it is pointless to include their statistics in their Wikipedia article. It takes up space that can be used for discussing their career in prose format. I'd like to hear what other community members think about this.
Cheers Kingjezza ( talk) 06:20, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
Hello everyone, the Player significant statistics ( e.g. Australian rules football statistics HS) shading on player's AFL playing statistics sections of articles is in need of some work. @ 4TheWynne has noted ( User talk:4TheWynne#Significant statistics) "unfortunately, with these ones, we just have to be all over it and do it ourselves."
I recently added Clayton Oliver's handball records in 2017 and 2018, through much manual work (by counting back from the last final to the end of the home and away season, comparing him to Mitchell and Neale). This isn't really sustainable, as it is very easy to overlook statistics without clear/obvious winners, , easy to make mistakes, and could potentially pose a data problem with e.g. a player that played exceptionally well for one game then was injured for the rest of the season, but whose statistics are hidden and thus may be missed when doing manual average calculations.
As I recently stumbled across this, I assume there are many more records that are either wrong or incomplete (especially older records).
Does anyone have any suggestions as to what can be done? Is it simply a case of checking every total and average in AFL StatsPro/AFLtables and working backwards? Is anyone keen to help calculate back to 2010/2000 (or further) and "complete" the data? DiamondIIIXX ( talk) 23:07, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
Last time I read the AFL Record, it used to carry season stats leaders - if that's still the case, then the Finals Week 1 Record is the reference you need. Aspirex ( talk) 00:22, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
I had assumed you were talking about accumulated stats and not averages. Considering the process of averaging inherently normalizes the benefit a finalist has over a non finalist in the accumulation of statistics, my suggestion is that the 'average' statistics should only show the complete season leader and that no effort should be put into determining the h&a leader - the actual distinction between the two titles is trivial, and the amount of back calculating you're describing would be close to WP:OR (although acceptable with consensus). Aspirex ( talk) 02:29, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
Sorry if I'm a little late to the party here, but I'm strongly in favour of continuing to differentiate between the three (home-and-away only, finals only and whole season) for totals and averages. My reasoning is sort of an extension to my argument as to why we should have the statistics table on Wikipedia, and that's that if there's any way we can make player articles more interesting for readers in a way that other sources don't (e.g. AFL Tables, Australian Football, etc. don't include any of what we're talking about here), we should. I think it's interesting to sometimes have a statistic/average that one player might lead for the home-and-away season but then have that overtaken by/fall below someone in the finals; for example, we had an instance in the AFLW this year where Brittany Bonnici led total and average disposals for the home-and-away season (222 @ 24.7), and was overtaken for total disposals by teammate Brianna Davey after finals, but both players' averages were below Alyce Parker and Georgia Patrikios (both 23.9) after finals. My point here is that, while it might take a little while to research for past seasons that don't already have these covered, these statistics aren't overly difficult to stay on top of for the current season and it makes the statistics table more interesting than just having the player who leads a statistic at the end of the season. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 12:25, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
Hi, I have just closed the discussion and deleted the templates. I suspect the affected articles require some further amendments, but I wasn't sure the best way to execute those changes. I felt it best to defer that decision to the interested editors above. The list of articles can be found here. ✗ plicit 01:00, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
I see the deletion discussion ended with a delete result and the template has been deleted from player pages ( for example). Problem is that the statistics tables themselves still have the background, but now it is unexplained (see prev example). How do we go around removing the background colours from all pages the templates were used on? -- SuperJew ( talk) 07:46, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
@ 4TheWynne @ SuperJew I've recently done a few edits, updating many legends and tables with the new template, except for just the P (Premiership players).
Further changes that will need to be done include: AFL Womens - I haven't been able to access the statistics for these, so it would be good if someone else can finish this off with the correct templates.
I know this involves updating these players(as I recorded who had what templates before I submitted the TFD):
I also know that there were 110 players with just the "P" template, and so those players will need to have their template updated. (Can someone do this automatically with Auto Wiki Browser? I don't use it.) It would be good if the rucks & non-rucks could all have their template replaced with the new one.
Once those things are done, I will go through each year in AFLTables and update any players we've missed. I know West Coast's Josh Kennedy is one of them. DiamondIIIXX ( talk) 02:13, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Hey guys – hope everyone's doing well. Yes, it's back to that old topic again... some of us love them, some of us love to hate them... statistics tables. But don't worry, this one's a fun one.
The way that AFL/AFLW statistics tables are currently formatted, we have manually-added zebra stripes that bunch up and look all messy when you sort a column, so long story short, I went in search of a solution (after trying JavaScript) and was eventually presented with Template:Alternating rows table. All we would need to do is change the format at the AFL player statistics start templates and remove the manual stripes from all of the existing tables, and voilà, we've made yet another accessibility-related improvement to these tables. Take, for example, Tony Lockett's table, as it's currently formatted:
Season | Team | No. | Games | Totals | Averages (per game) | ||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
G | B | K | H | D | M | T | G | B | K | H | D | M | T | ||||
1983 | St Kilda | 37 | 12 | 19 | 17 | 76 | 26 | 102 | 44 | — | 1.6 | 1.4 | 6.3 | 2.2 | 8.5 | 3.7 | — |
1984 | St Kilda | 14 | 20 | 77 | 44 | 146 | 19 | 165 | 108 | — | 3.9 | 2.2 | 7.3 | 1.0 | 8.3 | 5.4 | — |
1985 | St Kilda | 14 | 21 | 79 | 22 | 146 | 32 | 178 | 112 | — | 3.8 | 1.0 | 7.0 | 1.5 | 8.5 | 5.3 | — |
1986 | St Kilda | 14 | 18 | 60 | 29 | 119 | 36 | 155 | 85 | — | 3.3 | 1.6 | 6.6 | 2.0 | 8.6 | 4.7 | — |
1987 | St Kilda | 14 | 22 | 117 | 52 | 226 | 49 | 275 | 164 | 16 | 5.3 | 2.4 | 10.3 | 2.2 | 12.5 | 7.5 | 0.7 |
1988 | St Kilda | 4 | 8 | 35 | 19 | 65 | 19 | 84 | 44 | 6 | 4.4 | 2.4 | 8.1 | 2.4 | 10.5 | 5.5 | 0.8 |
1989 | St Kilda | 4 | 11 | 78 | 24 | 122 | 18 | 140 | 92 | 5 | 7.1 | 2.2 | 11.1 | 1.6 | 12.7 | 8.4 | 0.5 |
1990 | St Kilda | 4 | 12 | 65 | 34 | 112 | 16 | 128 | 84 | 11 | 5.4 | 2.8 | 9.3 | 1.3 | 10.7 | 7.0 | 0.9 |
1991 | St Kilda | 4 | 17 | 127 | 51 | 190 | 33 | 223 | 140 | 7 | 7.5 | 3.0 | 11.2 | 1.9 | 13.1 | 8.2 | 0.4 |
1992 | St Kilda | 4 | 22 | 132 | 58 | 214 | 30 | 244 | 157 | 12 | 6.0 | 2.6 | 9.7 | 1.4 | 11.1 | 7.1 | 0.5 |
1993 | St Kilda | 4 | 10 | 53 | 12 | 85 | 26 | 111 | 63 | 7 | 5.3 | 1.2 | 8.5 | 2.6 | 11.1 | 6.3 | 0.7 |
1994 | St Kilda | 4 | 10 | 56 | 26 | 100 | 16 | 116 | 76 | 7 | 5.6 | 2.6 | 10.0 | 1.6 | 11.6 | 7.6 | 0.7 |
1995 | Sydney | 4 | 19 | 110 | 44 | 176 | 42 | 218 | 139 | 16 | 5.8 | 2.3 | 9.3 | 2.2 | 11.5 | 7.3 | 0.8 |
1996 | Sydney | 4 | 22 | 121 | 63 | 212 | 45 | 257 | 168 | 21 | 5.5 | 2.9 | 9.6 | 2.0 | 11.7 | 7.6 | 1.0 |
1997 | Sydney | 4 | 12 | 37 | 21 | 65 | 23 | 88 | 50 | 7 | 3.1 | 1.8 | 5.4 | 1.9 | 7.3 | 4.2 | 0.6 |
1998 | Sydney | 4 | 23 | 109 | 36 | 167 | 41 | 208 | 121 | 9 | 4.7 | 1.6 | 7.3 | 1.8 | 9.0 | 5.3 | 0.4 |
1999 | Sydney | 4 | 19 | 82 | 38 | 141 | 27 | 168 | 112 | 15 | 4.3 | 2.0 | 7.4 | 1.4 | 8.8 | 5.9 | 0.8 |
2002 | Sydney | 46 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 5 | 2 | 7 | 1 | 3 | 1.0 | 0.0 | 1.7 | 0.7 | 2.3 | 0.3 | 1.0 |
Career | 281 | 1360 | 590 | 2367 | 500 | 2867 | 1760 | 142 | 4.8 | 2.1 | 8.4 | 1.8 | 10.2 | 6.3 | 0.7 |
Here is what the table would look like with the start template reformatted, the manual stripes removed and the other changes applied that we've discussed here but haven't yet applied to this table:
Season | Team | No. | Games | Totals | Averages (per game) | Votes | ||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
G | B | K | H | D | M | T | G | B | K | H | D | M | T | |||||
1983 | St Kilda | 37 | 12 | 19 | 17 | 76 | 26 | 102 | 44 | — | 1.6 | 1.4 | 6.3 | 2.2 | 8.5 | 3.7 | — | 0 |
1984 | St Kilda | 14 | 20 | 77 | 44 | 146 | 19 | 165 | 108 | — | 3.9 | 2.2 | 7.3 | 1.0 | 8.3 | 5.4 | — | 7 |
1985 | St Kilda | 14 | 21 | 79 | 22 | 146 | 32 | 178 | 112 | — | 3.8 | 1.0 | 7.0 | 1.5 | 8.5 | 5.3 | — | 3 |
1986 | St Kilda | 14 | 18 | 60 | 29 | 119 | 36 | 155 | 85 | — | 3.3 | 1.6 | 6.6 | 2.0 | 8.6 | 4.7 | — | 1 |
1987 | St Kilda | 14 | 22 | 117† | 52 | 226 | 49 | 275 | 164 | 16 | 5.3† | 2.4 | 10.3 | 2.2 | 12.5 | 7.5 | 0.7 | 20± |
1988 | St Kilda | 4 | 8 | 35 | 19 | 65 | 19 | 84 | 44 | 6 | 4.4 | 2.4 | 8.1 | 2.4 | 10.5 | 5.5 | 0.8 | 3 |
1989 | St Kilda | 4 | 11 | 78 | 24 | 122 | 18 | 140 | 92 | 5 | 7.1† | 2.2 | 11.1 | 1.6 | 12.7 | 8.4 | 0.5 | 10 |
1990 | St Kilda | 4 | 12 | 65 | 34 | 112 | 16 | 128 | 84 | 11 | 5.4† | 2.8† | 9.3 | 1.3 | 10.7 | 7.0 | 0.9 | 3 |
1991 | St Kilda | 4 | 17 | 127† | 51 | 190 | 33 | 223 | 140 | 7 | 7.5† | 3.0 | 11.2 | 1.9 | 13.1 | 8.2 | 0.4 | 16 |
1992 | St Kilda | 4 | 22 | 132 | 58 | 214 | 30 | 244 | 157 | 12 | 6.0 | 2.6 | 9.7 | 1.4 | 11.1 | 7.1 | 0.5 | 10 |
1993 | St Kilda | 4 | 10 | 53 | 12 | 85 | 26 | 111 | 63 | 7 | 5.3 | 1.2 | 8.5 | 2.6 | 11.1 | 6.3 | 0.7 | 5 |
1994 | St Kilda | 4 | 10 | 56 | 26 | 100 | 16 | 116 | 76 | 7 | 5.6† | 2.6 | 10.0 | 1.6 | 11.6 | 7.6 | 0.7 | 7 |
1995 | Sydney | 4 | 19 | 110 | 44 | 176 | 42 | 218 | 139 | 16 | 5.8† | 2.3 | 9.3 | 2.2 | 11.5 | 7.3 | 0.8 | 7 |
1996 | Sydney | 4 | 22 | 121† | 63† | 212 | 45 | 257 | 168 | 21 | 5.5† | 2.9† | 9.6 | 2.0 | 11.7 | 7.6 | 1.0 | 14 |
1997 | Sydney | 4 | 12 | 37 | 21 | 65 | 23 | 88 | 50 | 7 | 3.1 | 1.8 | 5.4 | 1.9 | 7.3 | 4.2 | 0.6 | 1 |
1998 | Sydney | 4 | 23 | 109† | 36 | 167 | 41 | 208 | 121 | 9 | 4.7† | 1.6 | 7.3 | 1.8 | 9.0 | 5.3 | 0.4 | 15 |
1999 | Sydney | 4 | 19 | 82 | 38 | 141 | 27 | 168 | 112 | 15 | 4.3† | 2.0 | 7.4 | 1.4 | 8.8 | 5.9 | 0.8 | 6 |
2002 | Sydney | 46 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 5 | 2 | 7 | 1 | 3 | 1.0 | 0.0 | 1.7 | 0.7 | 2.3 | 0.3 | 1.0 | 0 |
Career | 281 | 1360 | 590 | 2367 | 500 | 2867 | 1760 | 142 | 4.8 | 2.1 | 8.4 | 1.8 | 10.2 | 6.3 | 0.7 | 128 |
Would everyone be onboard with this? I know some might look at it as "another thing to add to the list" when it comes to these tables, but it's a necessary and pretty straightforward change, to the point that I'd be surprised if anyone opposed it; nevertheless, keen to know people's thoughts – thanks. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 16:07, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
P.S. Someone needs to really get through to Johnny Stormer, again, about highlighting career-high statistics in bold, basketball-style – it should just be a flat no, as we already highlight key statistics in bold (like above), but they keep ignoring me.