![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
This page is the concluding page of the archives related to the creation of WP:WHEEL.
It covers October - December 2006, and includes the commentaries and final discussions on the merge proposal, merged from /Commentary final version and WT:WHEEL respectively.
The commentary page contained the following:
Edit summary: 09:47, October 10, 2006 John Reid (copy from sources)
This is a page of comments and references for Wikipedia:Wheel war.
This page resulted from a merger of existing Guidelines with similar names:
The former served as the basis for 0WW policy; the latter for 0WW guidelines.
Following are a number of (refactored) comments made in relation to wheel-warring policy. While none have effect equal to the policy itself, all may serve as a guide to interpretation.
More information may be found by examining the contents of the discussions that led to the establishment of this policy.
|
Prior to this merged version, wheel warring was discussed on several different pages. Besides talk pages and a number of lesser pages, this page -- under this title -- described wheel warring in general terms. A feeling arose that a more strictly worded restriction on wheel warring was demanded; this led to a workshop originally titled Wikipedia:Proposed wheel warring policy. This developed 7 different wordings which merged into a single wheel war guideline. Meanwhile, the original page evolved and grew.
Unaddressed until now has been the question of what we are doing with two different pages that speak to the same issue. Various editors called for a merger, which I have indeed completed. The key concern with merger was that each former page contained radically different wording. I believe the solution is to understand that each former page spoke to the wheel warring issue from different angles. Neither contradicted the other. Rather, one page attempted to guide admins away from wheel warring with terms subject to interpretation; application of such guidelines require mature judgement and use of balancing tests. The other page set a bright-line rule: touch it and you "die".
Forgive a lifelong graphic designer if I see things in graphic terms. Admins are permitted a great range of actions (not to scale). Some of these are unwise and quite possibly forbidden by other policies; some of these are reverts of other admins. These do not always overlap; an admin might block a user with whom he's had a content dispute; or an admin might unblock a blocked IP after hearing a plea from another user at the same dorm. When they do overlap, though, it's a sign of real trouble. Somewhere within the overlap area is wheel warring, as defined by this page's guidelines; this may very well be subject to sanctions but the definition is a bit fuzzy. Finally, there is a certain very definite type of action clearly forbidden by policy.
I have used the terms policy and guidelines here to indicate the relatively strict and lax natures of the two sections. Both former pages achieved guideline status before the move and I have retained the tag; I expect this to pass into Wikipedia official policy in time. Meanwhile, I hope nobody feels the need to try to rename these two sections; the terms are familiar, therefore understood by the casual reader. The intent is to suggest that when a given action is prohibited under the policy section it is really not subject to much debate. While the provisions of the guidelines section are very widely accepted, the truth is that in any given wheel war, some significant faction will claim they do not apply to them. This subtlety is best conveyed with the two short words; any explanation is almost surely to be ignored in the heat of the moment -- which is the time when clear understanding is key. We hope that even seriously upset admins will recognize that they are crossing a bright line when they violate policy.
For clarity, two large sections are broken out onto subpages:
Note also the talk page archive index at Wheel war/Archive.
This merger is an important stage in a long-running effort by a great many editors; I, personally, have worked hard on it. Yet it is not "finished". I expect editors to express their concerns directly and, if necessary, edit this page. John Reid 12:43, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
As noted on the village pump, this page should be policy since it's both actionable and consensual, it's a pretty clear case of "don't do that", and has already been upheld by several arbcom decisions. I've put a {{ proposed}} up so that we can discuss the wording. I'd be happy to hear people's opinions on, or objections to, this. ( Radiant) 13:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Two concerns that I believe need to be dealt with before this can become policy:
One last thing that may or may not be a concern is that there are several MeatballWiki links which don't seem explicitly relevant to the subject.
Other than that, agreed, let's make it a policy as soon as possible. -- tjstrf Now on editor review! 15:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
One thing that should be present before this page transitions into full-fledged policy is what state a page/user should be in while things are resolved as per process. While the community debates, should a user be left blocked or unblocked, a page deleted or undeleted and protected? Even if this is made clear on the relevent process pages, it would be good to have the information duplicated here, for ease of application. - Toptomcat 15:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I object. You raise a good point, Toptomcat; I don't know what solution is best but I agree it's worth thinking about, perhaps addressing. But before we try to improve this, we must stop destroying it. John Reid ° 00:06, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Above, I've tried to explain in some detail why this topic is broken into two different, though overlapping categories of offense. The terms in the first degree and in the second degree are very common in law and well understood; if they haven't been used in other policies, perhaps it's because our community feels that they are all-or-nothing rules and all infractions are equal. I derive the two clases of forbidden action directly from the two pages which I merged; each stood as a guideline for some time, each prohibited some actions and called them wheel wars; but they forbade different things and did so in different ways. I don't think they ever did conflict but I have preserved the distinction as an honest reflection of our record in labeling and reacting to these threats to public order. Please hang onto the terms; they are needed. Otherwise, it's difficult for somebody to say, clearly, that Admin A violated this policy at some time, in some place "in the second degree but not in the first". Thank you. John Reid ° 23:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
No, none of that works at all. If you continue the way you are going, you are going to burn nearly a year's worth of work by any number of editors. Keep cutting and you will be left with the original, vague statement: Wheel warring is admins reverting each other and that's bad. That wasn't enough then, it's not enough now.
All wheel warring is disruptive -- highly so. Bright-line wheel warring is a subset of wheel warring in general but that doesn't mean it is somehow more destructive; it's simply easier to define. Two different, but not conflicting definitions of wheel warring are good. The bright line is unambiguous, covers the majority of straight-ahead cases, and is clear and simple enough that it is almost impossible to poke a wikilawyer hole in it. The balancing test is broad enough to cover all other cases but requires judgement and can, therefore, be argued. No single statement can possibly stretch to cover all eventualities with an airtight zipper bag.
Degrees of offense are common legal terms; I doubt anyone who's seen an episode of Perry Mason or CSI can fail to understand that there's a distinction. But it really doesn't matter what you call them. I offered two different, parallel pairs of terms: (policy and guideline) and (first degree and second degree). If Joe Blo can't understand either of these, I don't know how to help. Call them apple and peach if you'd rather. Don't conflate the two. John Reid ° 23:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Summary of high-water marks in development of this policy:
John Reid ° 08:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
John Reid solicited my opinion on my talk page, so I'd just like to say that I wholeheartedly support the simplifications that were made after he made the merge. Philwelch 13:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Because it cut out a lot of unnecessary crap that added nothing to our understanding of policy and existed only to satisfy your personal sense of order and completeness. Philwelch 02:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
John, you asked me to come comment, and I did. I have better things to do with my life than to satisfy your desires here. My policy was shot down. Fine. That doesn't mean I'll support you coming in here and polluting what we do have with a bizarre linguistic quagmire. This is supposed to be a very simple policy governing administrative reversions. The minute you start using legal and pseudo-legalistic jargon to describe Wikipedia policy, you have failed in writing something that will be clearly and quickly understood by Wikipedia's contributors. And to answer just one of your many insulting questions, I don't disregard the work of other editors so much as I don't automatically grant it respect just for being work. You can work for months and months on something that turns out to be utter crap. So I don't care how many people worked on it and how long they worked on it. All I care about is whether it's good for the wiki or not. The first rule of Wikipedia is not to get attached to your own work because it can be discarded or altered at will. I had a hard time with that rule once, and all I can tell you is to accept it gracefully and maintain your own dignity. Philwelch 18:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
John, your shamelessness is well established. I'm warning you from my own personal experience, though, that it is also a mistake. Stop being combative and learn to accept when you've lost. I know it's difficult, because I've had to do the same thing, but it will make things much easier for you. Philwelch 16:43, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I've stricken most of the paragraph that said that "slow" wheel wars must not be called wheel wars because stopping them will aggravate the issue. Per m:the wrong version, that is not the case; stopping a wheel war or edit war is not an endorsement of the present version. ( Radiant) 08:13, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
John, you're embarrassing yourself. Philwelch 06:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
"Shut off the bulldozer"? You're turning this into a WP:OWNership debate. You don't own this page; you're outnumbered here. Honestly, you claim to be trying to understand, you claim consensus, but you're just one person whining that your preferred version is not being accepted. I know you're personally attached to this policy because it's the cornerstone accomplishment in your "wikicareer". Guess what: policy is hard. And the way you're pursuing this issue is non-productive. I speak from experience. Philwelch 16:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Paraphrasing the only specific, substantial comments (by CBD):
1. Some say any admin revert is wheel warring.
2. Others say that one revert per admin is okay but a second (or additional) is wheel warring.
3. Some say that an admin action -- the first on a subject -- taken in the foreknowledge that other admins are likely to object is wheel warring.
Other points made:
Paraphrase ends here. If CBD feels I've taken undue liberties, he is free to revise it -- or move the whole block down here, out of the personal attack swamp.
Straight off, I have to get a fast answer to complaints about "jargon". I really thought that after I'd posted pictures, there wouldn't be any lack of clarity about the distinction between " bright-line rule" and " balancing test". Both concepts have regular articles; now each has its own image on this page; before that, at the time of merge, I put together a special-purpose diagram that still sits up top there. I regret using the terms first degree and second degree; I've seen them in other contexts and am entirely comfortable with arbitrary labels. I seriously regret using section headers named Policy and Guideline; doing so confuses the issues of acceptance and consensus on one hand with severity or method of determination on the other. I move to drop all application of the latter two pairs of terms, period.
If "bright-line rule" and "balancing test" are insufficiently clear, I want a different pair of labels now. I don't want to ride forth into discussion on a pair of lame ducks. My main objection to this pair of terms is that, together, they consist of five words, so they take some time to type. Choose your poison, please; I will go with the first suggestion and use it consistently from there on out. I ask the very next comment begin with a declaration of the preferred pair of terms and any following objection to speak to that minor technical point first. Nothing is more antagonizing than wading through a discussion in which people cannot even agree on what to call the subjects. I will accept, at least here in this discussion, any pair of terms: "foo" and "bar", if you like. Be sure to specify which is which, please. Avoid ambiguous and confusing terms such as "old" and "new". Thank you.
I'd like to make all sorts of rejoinders to comments above and I'm willing but I'd like to ask Hiding and CBD's indulgence and simply narrow the discussion for the moment. I promise to return to all other points in good time but for efficiency, let's concentrate on one at a time.
A. I say each of two pages that I merged into this
[17] version independently achieved
guideline status. I support this not merely by claiming that each page bore the {{
guideline}} tag; that is also true but less important than underlying community consensus. I say this consensus is demonstrated by the very heavy participation shown in the record on both pages and on corresponding talk; by a straw poll taken among "seven forks"; and also, by the relative stability of each page for lengths of time while bearing the guideline tag. Further, acceptance is shown independently by the heavy frequency of citation by other editors in a wide range of forums up to and including RfArb final decisions.
B. Therefore, I say that it is not appropriate to make major changes to this merged version without prior discussion.
C. I anticipate the quibble that the merge itself is a major change. I say the merge preserved intact salient features of each pre-merge version without introducing significant novelties. I also note that while I did perform the merge, I did not instigate it; motion to merge came from other quarters. This is also shown in the record.
1. Therefore, proposed that this page be restored to [18], the appropriate {{ guideline}} tag be restored, and further changes be discussed.
2. Alternately, for those who quibble with the merge, proposed that the current state of this page be moved to Wikipedia:Wheel war/Draft2 and each individual page be restored to the state it had prior to merge: [19] and [20]. Discussion may then proceed at a central talk page on the merits of all four versions.
Please indicate (after expressing your preference for terms) either your endorsement or your opposition to either proposal. If you oppose, please rebut the points I have made in support. Thank you. John Reid ° 18:40, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Copied from
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Please check your facts. The guideline tag was removed by Vectro here; later, in reponse to a comment on the village pump that this should be policy, I found it tagless and, rather than marking it policy immediately, added a proposed tag [21] to get agreement upon the wording. Radiant! 11:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC) |
I still want to hear, first, what my fellow editors want as an alternate pair of terms for bright-line rule and balancing test. Then, I would like to hear criticism of the points and proposals I have made. Thank you. John Reid ° 01:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Due to John's inability to meaningfully and civilly discuss issues with anyone else, in addition to his bizarre and verbose attempts to force everyone to only discuss John's personal objections within his personal framework, as well as the general futility of further engaging with this personality, I feel it's necessary to say the following:
John Reid, your objections have been noted. That is all. Philwelch 05:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for the rushed comments and new section, but here are some thoughts: my general feeling is that it would be best to decide on something (fairly lax), and then let people follow their own (stricter) guidelines if they want. A bit like the 3RR versus 1RR thing. It should be common sense really. Be civil and discuss things, rather than edit warring, even if the actions happen to be admin actions. Oh, and investigate before taking admin actions, and thus prevent slow wheel wars. Any deciding on a guideline is better than another few years with nothing. Carcharoth 16:44, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Looking through the recent contributions, I prefer Radiant's crisper, more clear edits to John's somewhat wandering version. Radiant's version is more readable and easier to understand. Hope that helps. Nandesuka 20:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Debate here appears to have died down. It has been argued that this was a policy before the rewording, and also that it should be a policy after the rewording, because it appears to be generally agreed upon that wheel warring is a Bad Thing. Is it time to put the official tag there? Or do people think it's not official enough and a guideline would be better? Or are the further comments as to the wording? ( Radiant) 09:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
This page is the concluding page of the archives related to the creation of WP:WHEEL.
It covers October - December 2006, and includes the commentaries and final discussions on the merge proposal, merged from /Commentary final version and WT:WHEEL respectively.
The commentary page contained the following:
Edit summary: 09:47, October 10, 2006 John Reid (copy from sources)
This is a page of comments and references for Wikipedia:Wheel war.
This page resulted from a merger of existing Guidelines with similar names:
The former served as the basis for 0WW policy; the latter for 0WW guidelines.
Following are a number of (refactored) comments made in relation to wheel-warring policy. While none have effect equal to the policy itself, all may serve as a guide to interpretation.
More information may be found by examining the contents of the discussions that led to the establishment of this policy.
|
Prior to this merged version, wheel warring was discussed on several different pages. Besides talk pages and a number of lesser pages, this page -- under this title -- described wheel warring in general terms. A feeling arose that a more strictly worded restriction on wheel warring was demanded; this led to a workshop originally titled Wikipedia:Proposed wheel warring policy. This developed 7 different wordings which merged into a single wheel war guideline. Meanwhile, the original page evolved and grew.
Unaddressed until now has been the question of what we are doing with two different pages that speak to the same issue. Various editors called for a merger, which I have indeed completed. The key concern with merger was that each former page contained radically different wording. I believe the solution is to understand that each former page spoke to the wheel warring issue from different angles. Neither contradicted the other. Rather, one page attempted to guide admins away from wheel warring with terms subject to interpretation; application of such guidelines require mature judgement and use of balancing tests. The other page set a bright-line rule: touch it and you "die".
Forgive a lifelong graphic designer if I see things in graphic terms. Admins are permitted a great range of actions (not to scale). Some of these are unwise and quite possibly forbidden by other policies; some of these are reverts of other admins. These do not always overlap; an admin might block a user with whom he's had a content dispute; or an admin might unblock a blocked IP after hearing a plea from another user at the same dorm. When they do overlap, though, it's a sign of real trouble. Somewhere within the overlap area is wheel warring, as defined by this page's guidelines; this may very well be subject to sanctions but the definition is a bit fuzzy. Finally, there is a certain very definite type of action clearly forbidden by policy.
I have used the terms policy and guidelines here to indicate the relatively strict and lax natures of the two sections. Both former pages achieved guideline status before the move and I have retained the tag; I expect this to pass into Wikipedia official policy in time. Meanwhile, I hope nobody feels the need to try to rename these two sections; the terms are familiar, therefore understood by the casual reader. The intent is to suggest that when a given action is prohibited under the policy section it is really not subject to much debate. While the provisions of the guidelines section are very widely accepted, the truth is that in any given wheel war, some significant faction will claim they do not apply to them. This subtlety is best conveyed with the two short words; any explanation is almost surely to be ignored in the heat of the moment -- which is the time when clear understanding is key. We hope that even seriously upset admins will recognize that they are crossing a bright line when they violate policy.
For clarity, two large sections are broken out onto subpages:
Note also the talk page archive index at Wheel war/Archive.
This merger is an important stage in a long-running effort by a great many editors; I, personally, have worked hard on it. Yet it is not "finished". I expect editors to express their concerns directly and, if necessary, edit this page. John Reid 12:43, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
As noted on the village pump, this page should be policy since it's both actionable and consensual, it's a pretty clear case of "don't do that", and has already been upheld by several arbcom decisions. I've put a {{ proposed}} up so that we can discuss the wording. I'd be happy to hear people's opinions on, or objections to, this. ( Radiant) 13:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Two concerns that I believe need to be dealt with before this can become policy:
One last thing that may or may not be a concern is that there are several MeatballWiki links which don't seem explicitly relevant to the subject.
Other than that, agreed, let's make it a policy as soon as possible. -- tjstrf Now on editor review! 15:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
One thing that should be present before this page transitions into full-fledged policy is what state a page/user should be in while things are resolved as per process. While the community debates, should a user be left blocked or unblocked, a page deleted or undeleted and protected? Even if this is made clear on the relevent process pages, it would be good to have the information duplicated here, for ease of application. - Toptomcat 15:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I object. You raise a good point, Toptomcat; I don't know what solution is best but I agree it's worth thinking about, perhaps addressing. But before we try to improve this, we must stop destroying it. John Reid ° 00:06, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Above, I've tried to explain in some detail why this topic is broken into two different, though overlapping categories of offense. The terms in the first degree and in the second degree are very common in law and well understood; if they haven't been used in other policies, perhaps it's because our community feels that they are all-or-nothing rules and all infractions are equal. I derive the two clases of forbidden action directly from the two pages which I merged; each stood as a guideline for some time, each prohibited some actions and called them wheel wars; but they forbade different things and did so in different ways. I don't think they ever did conflict but I have preserved the distinction as an honest reflection of our record in labeling and reacting to these threats to public order. Please hang onto the terms; they are needed. Otherwise, it's difficult for somebody to say, clearly, that Admin A violated this policy at some time, in some place "in the second degree but not in the first". Thank you. John Reid ° 23:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
No, none of that works at all. If you continue the way you are going, you are going to burn nearly a year's worth of work by any number of editors. Keep cutting and you will be left with the original, vague statement: Wheel warring is admins reverting each other and that's bad. That wasn't enough then, it's not enough now.
All wheel warring is disruptive -- highly so. Bright-line wheel warring is a subset of wheel warring in general but that doesn't mean it is somehow more destructive; it's simply easier to define. Two different, but not conflicting definitions of wheel warring are good. The bright line is unambiguous, covers the majority of straight-ahead cases, and is clear and simple enough that it is almost impossible to poke a wikilawyer hole in it. The balancing test is broad enough to cover all other cases but requires judgement and can, therefore, be argued. No single statement can possibly stretch to cover all eventualities with an airtight zipper bag.
Degrees of offense are common legal terms; I doubt anyone who's seen an episode of Perry Mason or CSI can fail to understand that there's a distinction. But it really doesn't matter what you call them. I offered two different, parallel pairs of terms: (policy and guideline) and (first degree and second degree). If Joe Blo can't understand either of these, I don't know how to help. Call them apple and peach if you'd rather. Don't conflate the two. John Reid ° 23:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Summary of high-water marks in development of this policy:
John Reid ° 08:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
John Reid solicited my opinion on my talk page, so I'd just like to say that I wholeheartedly support the simplifications that were made after he made the merge. Philwelch 13:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Because it cut out a lot of unnecessary crap that added nothing to our understanding of policy and existed only to satisfy your personal sense of order and completeness. Philwelch 02:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
John, you asked me to come comment, and I did. I have better things to do with my life than to satisfy your desires here. My policy was shot down. Fine. That doesn't mean I'll support you coming in here and polluting what we do have with a bizarre linguistic quagmire. This is supposed to be a very simple policy governing administrative reversions. The minute you start using legal and pseudo-legalistic jargon to describe Wikipedia policy, you have failed in writing something that will be clearly and quickly understood by Wikipedia's contributors. And to answer just one of your many insulting questions, I don't disregard the work of other editors so much as I don't automatically grant it respect just for being work. You can work for months and months on something that turns out to be utter crap. So I don't care how many people worked on it and how long they worked on it. All I care about is whether it's good for the wiki or not. The first rule of Wikipedia is not to get attached to your own work because it can be discarded or altered at will. I had a hard time with that rule once, and all I can tell you is to accept it gracefully and maintain your own dignity. Philwelch 18:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
John, your shamelessness is well established. I'm warning you from my own personal experience, though, that it is also a mistake. Stop being combative and learn to accept when you've lost. I know it's difficult, because I've had to do the same thing, but it will make things much easier for you. Philwelch 16:43, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I've stricken most of the paragraph that said that "slow" wheel wars must not be called wheel wars because stopping them will aggravate the issue. Per m:the wrong version, that is not the case; stopping a wheel war or edit war is not an endorsement of the present version. ( Radiant) 08:13, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
John, you're embarrassing yourself. Philwelch 06:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
"Shut off the bulldozer"? You're turning this into a WP:OWNership debate. You don't own this page; you're outnumbered here. Honestly, you claim to be trying to understand, you claim consensus, but you're just one person whining that your preferred version is not being accepted. I know you're personally attached to this policy because it's the cornerstone accomplishment in your "wikicareer". Guess what: policy is hard. And the way you're pursuing this issue is non-productive. I speak from experience. Philwelch 16:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Paraphrasing the only specific, substantial comments (by CBD):
1. Some say any admin revert is wheel warring.
2. Others say that one revert per admin is okay but a second (or additional) is wheel warring.
3. Some say that an admin action -- the first on a subject -- taken in the foreknowledge that other admins are likely to object is wheel warring.
Other points made:
Paraphrase ends here. If CBD feels I've taken undue liberties, he is free to revise it -- or move the whole block down here, out of the personal attack swamp.
Straight off, I have to get a fast answer to complaints about "jargon". I really thought that after I'd posted pictures, there wouldn't be any lack of clarity about the distinction between " bright-line rule" and " balancing test". Both concepts have regular articles; now each has its own image on this page; before that, at the time of merge, I put together a special-purpose diagram that still sits up top there. I regret using the terms first degree and second degree; I've seen them in other contexts and am entirely comfortable with arbitrary labels. I seriously regret using section headers named Policy and Guideline; doing so confuses the issues of acceptance and consensus on one hand with severity or method of determination on the other. I move to drop all application of the latter two pairs of terms, period.
If "bright-line rule" and "balancing test" are insufficiently clear, I want a different pair of labels now. I don't want to ride forth into discussion on a pair of lame ducks. My main objection to this pair of terms is that, together, they consist of five words, so they take some time to type. Choose your poison, please; I will go with the first suggestion and use it consistently from there on out. I ask the very next comment begin with a declaration of the preferred pair of terms and any following objection to speak to that minor technical point first. Nothing is more antagonizing than wading through a discussion in which people cannot even agree on what to call the subjects. I will accept, at least here in this discussion, any pair of terms: "foo" and "bar", if you like. Be sure to specify which is which, please. Avoid ambiguous and confusing terms such as "old" and "new". Thank you.
I'd like to make all sorts of rejoinders to comments above and I'm willing but I'd like to ask Hiding and CBD's indulgence and simply narrow the discussion for the moment. I promise to return to all other points in good time but for efficiency, let's concentrate on one at a time.
A. I say each of two pages that I merged into this
[17] version independently achieved
guideline status. I support this not merely by claiming that each page bore the {{
guideline}} tag; that is also true but less important than underlying community consensus. I say this consensus is demonstrated by the very heavy participation shown in the record on both pages and on corresponding talk; by a straw poll taken among "seven forks"; and also, by the relative stability of each page for lengths of time while bearing the guideline tag. Further, acceptance is shown independently by the heavy frequency of citation by other editors in a wide range of forums up to and including RfArb final decisions.
B. Therefore, I say that it is not appropriate to make major changes to this merged version without prior discussion.
C. I anticipate the quibble that the merge itself is a major change. I say the merge preserved intact salient features of each pre-merge version without introducing significant novelties. I also note that while I did perform the merge, I did not instigate it; motion to merge came from other quarters. This is also shown in the record.
1. Therefore, proposed that this page be restored to [18], the appropriate {{ guideline}} tag be restored, and further changes be discussed.
2. Alternately, for those who quibble with the merge, proposed that the current state of this page be moved to Wikipedia:Wheel war/Draft2 and each individual page be restored to the state it had prior to merge: [19] and [20]. Discussion may then proceed at a central talk page on the merits of all four versions.
Please indicate (after expressing your preference for terms) either your endorsement or your opposition to either proposal. If you oppose, please rebut the points I have made in support. Thank you. John Reid ° 18:40, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Copied from
User talk:John Reid
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Please check your facts. The guideline tag was removed by Vectro here; later, in reponse to a comment on the village pump that this should be policy, I found it tagless and, rather than marking it policy immediately, added a proposed tag [21] to get agreement upon the wording. Radiant! 11:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC) |
I still want to hear, first, what my fellow editors want as an alternate pair of terms for bright-line rule and balancing test. Then, I would like to hear criticism of the points and proposals I have made. Thank you. John Reid ° 01:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Due to John's inability to meaningfully and civilly discuss issues with anyone else, in addition to his bizarre and verbose attempts to force everyone to only discuss John's personal objections within his personal framework, as well as the general futility of further engaging with this personality, I feel it's necessary to say the following:
John Reid, your objections have been noted. That is all. Philwelch 05:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for the rushed comments and new section, but here are some thoughts: my general feeling is that it would be best to decide on something (fairly lax), and then let people follow their own (stricter) guidelines if they want. A bit like the 3RR versus 1RR thing. It should be common sense really. Be civil and discuss things, rather than edit warring, even if the actions happen to be admin actions. Oh, and investigate before taking admin actions, and thus prevent slow wheel wars. Any deciding on a guideline is better than another few years with nothing. Carcharoth 16:44, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Looking through the recent contributions, I prefer Radiant's crisper, more clear edits to John's somewhat wandering version. Radiant's version is more readable and easier to understand. Hope that helps. Nandesuka 20:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Debate here appears to have died down. It has been argued that this was a policy before the rewording, and also that it should be a policy after the rewording, because it appears to be generally agreed upon that wheel warring is a Bad Thing. Is it time to put the official tag there? Or do people think it's not official enough and a guideline would be better? Or are the further comments as to the wording? ( Radiant) 09:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)