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Yes. Common sense starts with choosing the correct ditionary defined words. Would you agree Zak?-- Light current 22:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC
Sorry I was not talking to you!I was talking to Zak. Thanks! So Iwould appreciate it if you did not speak unitl you are spoken to! IOW: KYFGS! Thanks!8-)-- Light current 23:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
No I cant. Can you? But I was talking to Zak no one else!-- Light current 16:53, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes but Zak was talking to me here!-- Light current 18:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
LC, I haven't followed your exact argument here, but as I recall from the last time, you're objecting that the word "verifiability" has nothing to do with truth in this policy, because "to verify" is often used to mean "to check that something is true." If that's your argument, I agree with you. Verifiability was not a good name for this policy, because we're precisely NOT trying to verify that things are true when we refer to a source; rather, we are checking only that the material has already been published by a reliable source. (I think that distinction also deals with the "with reference to" and "by referring to" distinction we're discussing above: material must be verifiable "with reference to X" which indicates this is a special use of the term. If it were "verifiable by referring to," we'd be implying the material could be verified as true, which is not what's meant. But that's another point, and I'm not expressing it very well.)
However, having said that, this is the name of the policy. It has stuck and lots of people are familiar with it. The first two sentences say what the word means in this context, so the fact that it isn't an ideal name doesn't really matter any more. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
This is exactly right. I think that "by referring to" is best because what is required is that edits be verifiable by going to the source and seeing that it says what we say. We could say something along the lines of "edits must be checkable against reputable sources". I think "checkable" is much more what we are looking for than "verifiable", which does have that note of truthiness about it. Grace Note 08:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, LC. I don't see any need to change the name at this stage. It has "taken," people are used to it, it's one word and easy to remember. All we need to do is explain how the term is being used. I think the current intro is clear enough, but we could try to make it clearer, for example:
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any editor must be able to verify that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, because Wikipedia does not publish original thought or original research.
Would that be better? SlimVirgin (talk) 21:41, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Youre a little behind the times mjb! THe current proposal is to say 'any reader' instead of 'editor'. Please see posts further down this page.-- Light current 21:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Well perhaps it is I who is behind the times. I think mjb has seen the modified proposal-- Light current 21:56, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Obvesoily I'm to stupid to red a diktonry so I'll withraw my coment. Gerry Ashton 01:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
That can be proved to be true, authentic, accurate, or real.
-- Light current 18:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
- To ascertain or test the accuracy or correctness of (something), esp. by examination or or by comparison to known data, an original, or some standard; to check or correct in this way'
- The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any editor must be able to verify that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, because Wikipedia does not publish original thought or original research.
-- Light current 03:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone other than Light current support this complaint, or is it opposed by consensus? (both can be true at once)
I thought it was clearly the one immediately above; but let's generalize: Is there a second to any of Light cuttent's plaints (and if so, which?) Septentrionalis 21:43, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
- FWIW, I like it. Of course, by "any editor" we really mean, "Any editor with access to a good research library and whose Internet access is not restricted," but it may be silly to emphasize that distinction. Robert A.West (Talk) 13:18, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
- I like it, too, and agree with LC re: confirm, but perhaps also substitute editor with reader or perhaps researcher? (I prefer reader). (Anon I think its mjb!)
my bolding Pls see further up page for the context of thee posts.-- Light current 21:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
To adopt Slim Virgin's text, slightly altered per comments above.
I'd much prefer "check" to "ascertain". We mean only to say that one should be able to go look and see that the information is there. Grace Note 08:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Is there consensus now to change the wording to:
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to ascertain that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, because Wikipedia does not publish original thought or original research.
-- Light current 14:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
No, "sources" don't "publish", bad English, what does "published by a [...] source" mean? Unless by "source" you intend "publisher", which would change the meaning (giving way to the opposite assertion than what was concluded in a recent arbcom case, see wikipedia talk:reliable sources). The source has to be as reliable as possible. Less reliable publishers may publish (copies of) very reliable documents. This has limited influence on the reliability of the source. -- Francis Schonken 14:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I think this went way too fast. I oppose the new language for reasons given above:
Oppose per Jossi. But I agree that the word "verifiability" may be somewhat confusing to new editors. In practice it means that information can only be included in Wikipedia if its existence in the real world can be verified. Also note that "material" is not a good word in the context of this proposal: publishing material already published elsewhere = copyvio. I also think the proposal is too verbose. How about something along these lines:
AvB ÷ talk 23:03, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
(reducing indentation level)
Which about says it all. I'm wondering if other editors would also agree to go back to the previous version after reading the above. Wikipedia is a BIG place and an interpretation that works for one editor editing a specific type of article may not work for another editor editing a different type of article. Some leeway is essential. AvB ÷ talk 13:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Given that a true neologism is by definition not verifiable, wouldn't it make sense to create a speedy tag for articles about a neologism? I ran across a neologism a few days ago with zero Google hits, and an admin went apoplectic when I tagged it for a speedy delete. It seemed only a matter of common sense to me that an article entirely based upon a policy violation finds itself speedied. It's not like anyone could rewrite such an article in a way that would make it acceptable. Rklawton 00:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
This section used to have: "Self-published sources may never be used as sources of information about another person or topic, subject to the limited exceptions discussed above."
Somehow this got deleted, then was "restored" on June 10 by SlimVirgin, omitting the phrase noting that exceptions exist. That phrase had been in the text, and I see no evidence of discussion about deleting the phrase by SlimVirgin. This was a quite important phrase, as there are legitimate exceptions mentioned in this very text, among other places. I can't follow how it has become part of the revert-war. Gimmetrow 22:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I see that the WP:RS, where this text was moved, now has a list of exceptions specified. The point is that without a phrase noting some exceptions, it excludes any exceptions. Now this text is completely absent from WP:V, effectively, reducing the text from a policy to a guideline. I can't find any real discussion of this deletion (of the phrase or the entire section) here. Gimmetrow 23:35, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Im very sorry to appear to be a pain in the ass to everyone, 8-( but I've just noticed that the intro mentions the word 'material'. This implies that we are lifting stuff verbatim from published sources. I suggest changing this word to 'information'.-- Light current 00:54, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Note that WP:BOLD applies in different ways to different namespaces. Perhaps the WP namespace should be a little less bold. This particular page is changing drastically with little or no discussion, and is not setting a good example for the newbies. Gimmetrow 02:40, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Well duh I missed this entire section. You folks are fast. But I really have to insist that the current "material" has to change as this is a recepy for copyright violation (as also argued and noted in my contribution above). Using the word "information" is an elegant way to solve the problem. AvB ÷ talk 10:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
We all know that Wikipedia isn't meant to include "fact" (it's not the determining factor), but I've always thought that popular opinion is what determines inclusion. For example, I've read that the article must represent what differing viewpoints in real life proportionately; if majority believes in ghosts, and minority don't, than the article must portray it this way, may stating that majority believes in ghost; while a small section is devoted ti minorities who disagree. Another thing I remember reading is that if Wikipedia existed back when they thought the world is FLAT; than Wikipedia would say that the world is flat; not because it is truth, but because that is the general consensus. So should consesus/popular opinion be the determining factor, or is it verfiability? 24.23.51.27 05:48, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I changed it to "Verifiable truth" because it retains the essential element of truth, but only that subset which is verifiable, otherwise people could create articles which they know are false, just because there is some published source for it somewhere.
Thank you andrewrutherford
This from Wikipedia: Wales has been a passionate adherent of the Objectivist philosophy of Ayn Rand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrewrutherford ( talk • contribs) 12:37, 22 June 2006
(Sorry I just had some editing difficulties and got cut off half way through) continued...
This from Wikipedia: Wales has been a passionate adherent of the Objectivist philosophy of Ayn Rand. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Wales Objectivism derives its name from its conception of knowledge and values as "objective", rather than as "intrinsic" or "subjective". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivist_philosophy I don't agree with Objectivist philosophy on all points, but that one I do, and if you don't with the founder of the website on such a basic point, then why quote him on the project page? Andrewrutherford 12:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Verifiable truth would be information that you believe to be true and which you can justify with evidence. There are the philosophical issues to consider when publishing false information, but there are also the legal ones: In English and American law, and systems based on them, libel and slander are two forms of defamation (or defamation of character), the tort or delict of publishing (to a third party) a false statement that negatively affects someone's reputation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libel This is discouraged in another Wikipedia policy: "For this reason, all contributors should recognize that it is their responsibility to ensure that material posted on Wikipedia is not defamatory." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Libel So why not just say that the information has to be true and therefore avoid any possibility of libel? Andrewrutherford 12:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
So you're Ok with me creating deliberately false articles, so long as I can find some sources? I'm sure I can create an entire alternative universe using North Korean and Stalinist sources. Most material on Wikipedia isn't aggressively fact checked anyway, so you could probably get away with quite alot via that method. Of course you could have people do it anyway, but why have policy to encourage it?
All I want is for the standard of knowledge in Wikipedia to reflect mainstream philosophical consensus of justified true belief. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge
At the moment, no one has to actually believe it, not even the person posting it on Wikipedia. You might just find an old book in your attic and think "that would make a great Wikipedia article". So you resurrect some madness that no one believes as if it were a live theory! That would be just as bad as posting original research, in fact it would be worse because it would look more credible.
Now I certainly agree that you should be encouraged to post information that you don't personally believe in order to provide a balanced point of view within a topic, but at the moment there is no difference between this and inventing your own fantasy theory for fun, and then seeking out some crank books in order to provide apparent justification.
Therefore, I propose at least the following threshold of knowledge that is being recorded for reasons other than historical reasons: Someone should believe it to be true! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.17.183.228 ( talk • contribs) 00:54, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
So basically you're part of a system which directs me to web pages in general, rather than answering me. OK! In that case I'll make it easy for you. Here's a question: Is it in accordance with Wikipedia policy for me to create articles which I know are completely fictitious, or not? and (if you can be bothered) why not? Andrewrutherford 16:48, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
The threshold of inclusion is verifiability is good and I like it, but attribution is important too and not included in the threshold statement. I'm finding editors defending themselves because their quotation is verifiable, but not attributable. For example, a newsgroup's past posting, stored on a server, is quoted. Well, that's verifiable but not attributable. Who knows the identity of newsgroup postings? I do understand a newsgroup is neither reliable nor refutable, but a statement like, "verifiable and attributable" would prevent some editor difficulty, I think. Terryeo 15:52, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
One of the bullet points in this section of policy describing which material may be used as sources of information about themselves in articles about themselves states that to be included, that material is not contradicted by reliable, third-party published sources;. I would argue that this needs to be removed. Both the self-published material and the contradictory material from reliable, third-party published sources should be allowed to be included as per WP:NPOV side by side. After all, for NPOV, we would like to have to have the POV of the subject and the POV of reliable sources in in these type of articles, wouldn't we? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:10, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
And more. By the current definitions all works from antiquity are "self-published" ("peer review" didn't exist in those days, and according to the current wording of WP:RS all publications that are not peer-reviewed are "self-published"). Then you have, for instance, Tacitus' article. Part of it is about his critical attitude regarding Ancient Romans. Much of that is "contentious", by definition it is about "third parties" and some of it is "contradicted by reliable, third-party published sources". Sorry, in Tacitus' article it is best to quote Tacitus for what he said about Ancient Romans. Not quoting Tacitus on these, but only his critics is the world on its head. How are you going to write about Martin Luther without mentioning what he wrote about his contemporaries, e.g. what on earth would be non-wikipedian about:
Luther issued his To the Christian Nobility of the German Nation (Aug. 1520), committing to the laity, as spiritual priests, the reformation required by God but neglected by the pope and the clergy. For the first time of many, Luther here publicly referred to the pope as the Antichrist.[1]
[1]Martin Luther, An Open Letter to The Christian Nobility of the German Nation Concerning the Reform of the Christian Estate, 1520, trans. C. M. Jacobs, in Works of Martin Luther: With Introductions and Notes, Volume 2 (Philadelphia: A. J. Holman Company, 1915; Fort Wayne, IN: Project Wittenberg, 2006) http://www.projectwittenberg.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/web/nblty-01.html.
?... Yes he called the pope "antichrist", which in his day was not really perceived as a compliment. It was "contentious", "about a third party", "self-published", "contradicted by other (at least as reliable) sources". So according to the present WP:V policy it should be thrown out of Wikipedia. No, this simply doesn't work this way. This is bad policy writing.
The "self published" section may be OK for biographies of living persons, in view of avoidance of libel charges. It is not OK for most of the other topics. According to Jimbo " WP:LIVING is a decent start, although it needs some attention I think so that we can bring it up to the standard of a full policy." WikiEN-l mailing list, May 7 19:44:05 UTC 2006. The "self published" section of WP:V is a part of WP:LIVING imported here. This is not the way how to move a "guideline that is a decent start" up to "non-negotiable policy". First go improve WP:LIVING. If then its quality is good enough to promote it to policy: fine, I'd be the first to support that. But as long as that doesn't happen, the piece should not be in the WP:V policy unless it is improved, and/or unless that section is strictly tied to BLP (as the best we have on the matter currently). But no way applicable to all wikipedia articles, or to all "self-published sources" -- Francis Schonken 22:07, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
There is a better response here. It has two points:
This applies to all primary sources, self-published or not. Septentrionalis 18:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Francis, please stop reverting and removing content. It is becoming disruptive and making the page unstable. The material you are removing is important and is part of policy. If you object to it, please say why here. SlimVirgin (talk) 15:11, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, as far as I'm concerned this section can be removed from this talk page, per "Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information"
[12] --
Francis Schonken
17:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm trying to revert changes on the telekinesis page. Another user had deleted the entire cultural references section because each fact was not verifiable. Through discussing this with him on the talk page, he appears to beleive that the policy mandates every fact have a reference outside of Wikipedia.
Now, I think that goes a little too far. It would mean that statements such as "The sun is a star in the center of the galaxy" and "the sky appears blue in color" have links to scientific documents coroborrating those claims. Liu Bei 17:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
There seemed to be some confusion about what a self-published source is, with some people thinking it was necessarily a living person writing about him- or herself. It needn't be, but might also be a small organization without staff writing about itself. I've therefore made a few changes to clarify that. [14] SlimVirgin (talk) 20:58, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Anyway I tried to find the roots of that section:
-later on in February there is some general vandalism (& reverts) not listed here; first half or March pretty much the same sight-
-early April again some vandalism & rv involving that section, not listed here-
-early May again vandalism & rv-
-The Mjb changes reoccur on 3 june, again reverted by Francis-
-later in June general vandalism and reversions-
-From this point there are no further deletions by Francis, only deletions of others, as described above -
Indeed, there is no link to WP:BLP. I don't see a link to WP:RS either. I don't see SlimVirgin's text and refactorings resulting from talk page discussions. Maybe I'm wrong. SlimVirgin, could you indicate where you derived this from WP:RS, as you now contend on the WP:RS talk page? Could you show me there was enough talk page consensus for your wording to be inserted in this policy page? For example, above I see Septentrionalis/Pmanderson saying we should go back to *primary source* wording. I didn't see you reply to that, only pressing your own wording directly on the policy page, without prior talk. The note you left here (the beginning of this section) was only written after your last series of six edits.
Could you give some more clarity about your mode of operation? -- Francis Schonken 23:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I just wish to note some historical revisionism around June 3 in Francis' account, when I was involved. There was no "discussion" in talk here - Francis made a bold edit and simply mentioned it in talk at the same time. I restored the deletion. Gimmetrow 00:43, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
What is this all about? Why so many diffs persented as "evidence". Evidence of what, exactly? It is about time that editors be more candid and direct. If an editor has a grudge against another, it would be much easier if these are resolved candindly rather than by "evidence" of diffs. This is not an ArbCom case. It is becoming quite annoying and tedious to have to deal with so much animosity, rather than amicably discuss how this very important policy can be improved, if at all. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Terry and Kenosis, can you say why you prefer "a threshold" to "the threshold." It seems to me that the latter is accurate. There is one threshold for inclusion, and that is "verifiability by reference to a reliable, published source." SlimVirgin (talk) 01:43, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
First of all, changes to such a major policy should not go from proposal to implementation in only a week. Consensus requires the opportunity for people to discuss, and is not reached by rushing. The matter at hand:
This policy does not need to redundantly define verifiability. The meaning of verifiability used here is quite common; it is in fact the dominant meaning of the word. The following sentence clearly and unequivocally states what is meant by this policy, without needing circumlocutions. — Centrx→ talk • 03:44, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, several days ago we informally proposed to backtrack to the last stable version - I think it's this one:
So far, I have seen no opposition. Do you think this needs to be a formal proposal? AvB ÷ talk 19:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the time between the first appearance of the current wording on Talk and its implementation on the policy page was two (2) days and, only a couple of hours after it was implemented, we find an opposition to it and further discussion about it. That is, it was still in formation.
The meaning of verifiability is still clarified in what I propose, it just doesn't go through the gymnastics of saying "Verifiability in this context means". The proper analogy would be saying "I want to date someone who is a little bit crazy, someone who is spontaneously fun." without the excess of saying "I mean...in this sense, not that other sense."
The following dictionary meanings are not necessary for this argument to hold. "Verifiable" means 'able to be verified'. The way in which statements are verified on Wikipedia is by the rules of evidence on Wikipedia, both here and at Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Here are the meanings in the Oxford English Dictionary (2d ed. 1989) with relevant quotations:
Note that "verifiability" means only "the fact of being verifiable". There are also the related words, verify and verification. I will not list quotations for these because it would be too lengthy and tiresome. Suffice it to say that the OED derives its definitions from carefully selected quotations.
Webster 1913 and Webster's New World College Dictionary, 1999, based on the principle International, also concur with these meanings. Webster 1913 more strongly concurs, with its only meaning being "Capable of being verified; confirmable." — Centrx→ talk • 04:16, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
This is the first (and so far only) response opposing the proposed reversion to the last stable consensus version of the first paragraph of the lead section. Your opposition could do with some fleshing out, such as addressing the reasons given above for the proposal. In summary, the departure from the older text (language backed by long years of consensus) brought about a chain reaction of repairs that ended in a dispute that could not be resolved or repaired in the text (about interpretations by veteran Wikipedians of what constitutes a reliable source). I originally supported the changes to some extent, including the one by Francis (from "by" to "in"). After some discussion I noticed that the old text was sufficiently fuzzy to accommodate both interpretations and became convinced we need that amount of fuzziness here because the community consensus is fuzzy on the subject. This means that we must backtrack or otherwise solve the problem that there are two acceptable interpretations doing the rounds. From there we can once again discuss the problems editors have with the old text. I should add that I have not changed my opinion about the speed with which those changes were adopted. In fact I think they should be reverted for that reason alone. Too fast folks. Thanks.
AvB ÷
talk
09:29, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I almost hate to suggest this because I think we all agree there has been too much change recently. But I've been toying with the idea of suggesting we rename the policy to Wikipedia:Attribution. There would be two advantages:
(1) It would get rid of the confusion over verifiable, which is related to truth, whereas our policy is not; and
(2) It would answer a question often asked by newbies (and some oldies) viz. does verifiability mean that all edits should in theory be sourced. If we think in terms of "attribution," then we can make clear that all edits must indeed be "attributable," but not all edits must actually be "attributed."
I know that "A not T" doesn't sound as good as "V not T," but apart from the loss of our catchphrase, I think the change would be beneficial. However, I know there has been too much back and forth, so I'm mentioning this here only to give people something to mull over for the future. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Sourceable? Just a thought. When it's used on article talk pages, editors usually mean, or take it to mean, "verifiable," Wikipedia style. AvB ÷ talk 12:38, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
That is what this policy has been averaging for the past week. Isn't this far too many edits? And some that are marked "minor" don't strike me as minor. AGF and all, but this observer thinks that slowing down would be a very good idea. Robert A.West ( Talk) 05:07, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I would argue that there needs to be a specific need, raised by a specific concern, in a specific situation presented by an editor, with a clear proposal for modifying policy that has served us well for several years and for which there is undeniable consensus, before we contemplate such modification. These haphazard edits and word-smithing are a royal waste of editors' time. We have an encyclopedia to write. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
Yes. Common sense starts with choosing the correct ditionary defined words. Would you agree Zak?-- Light current 22:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC
Sorry I was not talking to you!I was talking to Zak. Thanks! So Iwould appreciate it if you did not speak unitl you are spoken to! IOW: KYFGS! Thanks!8-)-- Light current 23:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
No I cant. Can you? But I was talking to Zak no one else!-- Light current 16:53, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes but Zak was talking to me here!-- Light current 18:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
LC, I haven't followed your exact argument here, but as I recall from the last time, you're objecting that the word "verifiability" has nothing to do with truth in this policy, because "to verify" is often used to mean "to check that something is true." If that's your argument, I agree with you. Verifiability was not a good name for this policy, because we're precisely NOT trying to verify that things are true when we refer to a source; rather, we are checking only that the material has already been published by a reliable source. (I think that distinction also deals with the "with reference to" and "by referring to" distinction we're discussing above: material must be verifiable "with reference to X" which indicates this is a special use of the term. If it were "verifiable by referring to," we'd be implying the material could be verified as true, which is not what's meant. But that's another point, and I'm not expressing it very well.)
However, having said that, this is the name of the policy. It has stuck and lots of people are familiar with it. The first two sentences say what the word means in this context, so the fact that it isn't an ideal name doesn't really matter any more. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
This is exactly right. I think that "by referring to" is best because what is required is that edits be verifiable by going to the source and seeing that it says what we say. We could say something along the lines of "edits must be checkable against reputable sources". I think "checkable" is much more what we are looking for than "verifiable", which does have that note of truthiness about it. Grace Note 08:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, LC. I don't see any need to change the name at this stage. It has "taken," people are used to it, it's one word and easy to remember. All we need to do is explain how the term is being used. I think the current intro is clear enough, but we could try to make it clearer, for example:
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any editor must be able to verify that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, because Wikipedia does not publish original thought or original research.
Would that be better? SlimVirgin (talk) 21:41, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Youre a little behind the times mjb! THe current proposal is to say 'any reader' instead of 'editor'. Please see posts further down this page.-- Light current 21:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Well perhaps it is I who is behind the times. I think mjb has seen the modified proposal-- Light current 21:56, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Obvesoily I'm to stupid to red a diktonry so I'll withraw my coment. Gerry Ashton 01:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
That can be proved to be true, authentic, accurate, or real.
-- Light current 18:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
- To ascertain or test the accuracy or correctness of (something), esp. by examination or or by comparison to known data, an original, or some standard; to check or correct in this way'
- The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any editor must be able to verify that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, because Wikipedia does not publish original thought or original research.
-- Light current 03:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone other than Light current support this complaint, or is it opposed by consensus? (both can be true at once)
I thought it was clearly the one immediately above; but let's generalize: Is there a second to any of Light cuttent's plaints (and if so, which?) Septentrionalis 21:43, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
- FWIW, I like it. Of course, by "any editor" we really mean, "Any editor with access to a good research library and whose Internet access is not restricted," but it may be silly to emphasize that distinction. Robert A.West (Talk) 13:18, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
- I like it, too, and agree with LC re: confirm, but perhaps also substitute editor with reader or perhaps researcher? (I prefer reader). (Anon I think its mjb!)
my bolding Pls see further up page for the context of thee posts.-- Light current 21:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
To adopt Slim Virgin's text, slightly altered per comments above.
I'd much prefer "check" to "ascertain". We mean only to say that one should be able to go look and see that the information is there. Grace Note 08:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Is there consensus now to change the wording to:
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to ascertain that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, because Wikipedia does not publish original thought or original research.
-- Light current 14:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
No, "sources" don't "publish", bad English, what does "published by a [...] source" mean? Unless by "source" you intend "publisher", which would change the meaning (giving way to the opposite assertion than what was concluded in a recent arbcom case, see wikipedia talk:reliable sources). The source has to be as reliable as possible. Less reliable publishers may publish (copies of) very reliable documents. This has limited influence on the reliability of the source. -- Francis Schonken 14:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I think this went way too fast. I oppose the new language for reasons given above:
Oppose per Jossi. But I agree that the word "verifiability" may be somewhat confusing to new editors. In practice it means that information can only be included in Wikipedia if its existence in the real world can be verified. Also note that "material" is not a good word in the context of this proposal: publishing material already published elsewhere = copyvio. I also think the proposal is too verbose. How about something along these lines:
AvB ÷ talk 23:03, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
(reducing indentation level)
Which about says it all. I'm wondering if other editors would also agree to go back to the previous version after reading the above. Wikipedia is a BIG place and an interpretation that works for one editor editing a specific type of article may not work for another editor editing a different type of article. Some leeway is essential. AvB ÷ talk 13:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Given that a true neologism is by definition not verifiable, wouldn't it make sense to create a speedy tag for articles about a neologism? I ran across a neologism a few days ago with zero Google hits, and an admin went apoplectic when I tagged it for a speedy delete. It seemed only a matter of common sense to me that an article entirely based upon a policy violation finds itself speedied. It's not like anyone could rewrite such an article in a way that would make it acceptable. Rklawton 00:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
This section used to have: "Self-published sources may never be used as sources of information about another person or topic, subject to the limited exceptions discussed above."
Somehow this got deleted, then was "restored" on June 10 by SlimVirgin, omitting the phrase noting that exceptions exist. That phrase had been in the text, and I see no evidence of discussion about deleting the phrase by SlimVirgin. This was a quite important phrase, as there are legitimate exceptions mentioned in this very text, among other places. I can't follow how it has become part of the revert-war. Gimmetrow 22:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I see that the WP:RS, where this text was moved, now has a list of exceptions specified. The point is that without a phrase noting some exceptions, it excludes any exceptions. Now this text is completely absent from WP:V, effectively, reducing the text from a policy to a guideline. I can't find any real discussion of this deletion (of the phrase or the entire section) here. Gimmetrow 23:35, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Im very sorry to appear to be a pain in the ass to everyone, 8-( but I've just noticed that the intro mentions the word 'material'. This implies that we are lifting stuff verbatim from published sources. I suggest changing this word to 'information'.-- Light current 00:54, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Note that WP:BOLD applies in different ways to different namespaces. Perhaps the WP namespace should be a little less bold. This particular page is changing drastically with little or no discussion, and is not setting a good example for the newbies. Gimmetrow 02:40, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Well duh I missed this entire section. You folks are fast. But I really have to insist that the current "material" has to change as this is a recepy for copyright violation (as also argued and noted in my contribution above). Using the word "information" is an elegant way to solve the problem. AvB ÷ talk 10:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
We all know that Wikipedia isn't meant to include "fact" (it's not the determining factor), but I've always thought that popular opinion is what determines inclusion. For example, I've read that the article must represent what differing viewpoints in real life proportionately; if majority believes in ghosts, and minority don't, than the article must portray it this way, may stating that majority believes in ghost; while a small section is devoted ti minorities who disagree. Another thing I remember reading is that if Wikipedia existed back when they thought the world is FLAT; than Wikipedia would say that the world is flat; not because it is truth, but because that is the general consensus. So should consesus/popular opinion be the determining factor, or is it verfiability? 24.23.51.27 05:48, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I changed it to "Verifiable truth" because it retains the essential element of truth, but only that subset which is verifiable, otherwise people could create articles which they know are false, just because there is some published source for it somewhere.
Thank you andrewrutherford
This from Wikipedia: Wales has been a passionate adherent of the Objectivist philosophy of Ayn Rand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrewrutherford ( talk • contribs) 12:37, 22 June 2006
(Sorry I just had some editing difficulties and got cut off half way through) continued...
This from Wikipedia: Wales has been a passionate adherent of the Objectivist philosophy of Ayn Rand. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Wales Objectivism derives its name from its conception of knowledge and values as "objective", rather than as "intrinsic" or "subjective". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivist_philosophy I don't agree with Objectivist philosophy on all points, but that one I do, and if you don't with the founder of the website on such a basic point, then why quote him on the project page? Andrewrutherford 12:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Verifiable truth would be information that you believe to be true and which you can justify with evidence. There are the philosophical issues to consider when publishing false information, but there are also the legal ones: In English and American law, and systems based on them, libel and slander are two forms of defamation (or defamation of character), the tort or delict of publishing (to a third party) a false statement that negatively affects someone's reputation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libel This is discouraged in another Wikipedia policy: "For this reason, all contributors should recognize that it is their responsibility to ensure that material posted on Wikipedia is not defamatory." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Libel So why not just say that the information has to be true and therefore avoid any possibility of libel? Andrewrutherford 12:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
So you're Ok with me creating deliberately false articles, so long as I can find some sources? I'm sure I can create an entire alternative universe using North Korean and Stalinist sources. Most material on Wikipedia isn't aggressively fact checked anyway, so you could probably get away with quite alot via that method. Of course you could have people do it anyway, but why have policy to encourage it?
All I want is for the standard of knowledge in Wikipedia to reflect mainstream philosophical consensus of justified true belief. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge
At the moment, no one has to actually believe it, not even the person posting it on Wikipedia. You might just find an old book in your attic and think "that would make a great Wikipedia article". So you resurrect some madness that no one believes as if it were a live theory! That would be just as bad as posting original research, in fact it would be worse because it would look more credible.
Now I certainly agree that you should be encouraged to post information that you don't personally believe in order to provide a balanced point of view within a topic, but at the moment there is no difference between this and inventing your own fantasy theory for fun, and then seeking out some crank books in order to provide apparent justification.
Therefore, I propose at least the following threshold of knowledge that is being recorded for reasons other than historical reasons: Someone should believe it to be true! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.17.183.228 ( talk • contribs) 00:54, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
So basically you're part of a system which directs me to web pages in general, rather than answering me. OK! In that case I'll make it easy for you. Here's a question: Is it in accordance with Wikipedia policy for me to create articles which I know are completely fictitious, or not? and (if you can be bothered) why not? Andrewrutherford 16:48, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
The threshold of inclusion is verifiability is good and I like it, but attribution is important too and not included in the threshold statement. I'm finding editors defending themselves because their quotation is verifiable, but not attributable. For example, a newsgroup's past posting, stored on a server, is quoted. Well, that's verifiable but not attributable. Who knows the identity of newsgroup postings? I do understand a newsgroup is neither reliable nor refutable, but a statement like, "verifiable and attributable" would prevent some editor difficulty, I think. Terryeo 15:52, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
One of the bullet points in this section of policy describing which material may be used as sources of information about themselves in articles about themselves states that to be included, that material is not contradicted by reliable, third-party published sources;. I would argue that this needs to be removed. Both the self-published material and the contradictory material from reliable, third-party published sources should be allowed to be included as per WP:NPOV side by side. After all, for NPOV, we would like to have to have the POV of the subject and the POV of reliable sources in in these type of articles, wouldn't we? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:10, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
And more. By the current definitions all works from antiquity are "self-published" ("peer review" didn't exist in those days, and according to the current wording of WP:RS all publications that are not peer-reviewed are "self-published"). Then you have, for instance, Tacitus' article. Part of it is about his critical attitude regarding Ancient Romans. Much of that is "contentious", by definition it is about "third parties" and some of it is "contradicted by reliable, third-party published sources". Sorry, in Tacitus' article it is best to quote Tacitus for what he said about Ancient Romans. Not quoting Tacitus on these, but only his critics is the world on its head. How are you going to write about Martin Luther without mentioning what he wrote about his contemporaries, e.g. what on earth would be non-wikipedian about:
Luther issued his To the Christian Nobility of the German Nation (Aug. 1520), committing to the laity, as spiritual priests, the reformation required by God but neglected by the pope and the clergy. For the first time of many, Luther here publicly referred to the pope as the Antichrist.[1]
[1]Martin Luther, An Open Letter to The Christian Nobility of the German Nation Concerning the Reform of the Christian Estate, 1520, trans. C. M. Jacobs, in Works of Martin Luther: With Introductions and Notes, Volume 2 (Philadelphia: A. J. Holman Company, 1915; Fort Wayne, IN: Project Wittenberg, 2006) http://www.projectwittenberg.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/web/nblty-01.html.
?... Yes he called the pope "antichrist", which in his day was not really perceived as a compliment. It was "contentious", "about a third party", "self-published", "contradicted by other (at least as reliable) sources". So according to the present WP:V policy it should be thrown out of Wikipedia. No, this simply doesn't work this way. This is bad policy writing.
The "self published" section may be OK for biographies of living persons, in view of avoidance of libel charges. It is not OK for most of the other topics. According to Jimbo " WP:LIVING is a decent start, although it needs some attention I think so that we can bring it up to the standard of a full policy." WikiEN-l mailing list, May 7 19:44:05 UTC 2006. The "self published" section of WP:V is a part of WP:LIVING imported here. This is not the way how to move a "guideline that is a decent start" up to "non-negotiable policy". First go improve WP:LIVING. If then its quality is good enough to promote it to policy: fine, I'd be the first to support that. But as long as that doesn't happen, the piece should not be in the WP:V policy unless it is improved, and/or unless that section is strictly tied to BLP (as the best we have on the matter currently). But no way applicable to all wikipedia articles, or to all "self-published sources" -- Francis Schonken 22:07, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
There is a better response here. It has two points:
This applies to all primary sources, self-published or not. Septentrionalis 18:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Francis, please stop reverting and removing content. It is becoming disruptive and making the page unstable. The material you are removing is important and is part of policy. If you object to it, please say why here. SlimVirgin (talk) 15:11, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, as far as I'm concerned this section can be removed from this talk page, per "Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information"
[12] --
Francis Schonken
17:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm trying to revert changes on the telekinesis page. Another user had deleted the entire cultural references section because each fact was not verifiable. Through discussing this with him on the talk page, he appears to beleive that the policy mandates every fact have a reference outside of Wikipedia.
Now, I think that goes a little too far. It would mean that statements such as "The sun is a star in the center of the galaxy" and "the sky appears blue in color" have links to scientific documents coroborrating those claims. Liu Bei 17:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
There seemed to be some confusion about what a self-published source is, with some people thinking it was necessarily a living person writing about him- or herself. It needn't be, but might also be a small organization without staff writing about itself. I've therefore made a few changes to clarify that. [14] SlimVirgin (talk) 20:58, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Anyway I tried to find the roots of that section:
-later on in February there is some general vandalism (& reverts) not listed here; first half or March pretty much the same sight-
-early April again some vandalism & rv involving that section, not listed here-
-early May again vandalism & rv-
-The Mjb changes reoccur on 3 june, again reverted by Francis-
-later in June general vandalism and reversions-
-From this point there are no further deletions by Francis, only deletions of others, as described above -
Indeed, there is no link to WP:BLP. I don't see a link to WP:RS either. I don't see SlimVirgin's text and refactorings resulting from talk page discussions. Maybe I'm wrong. SlimVirgin, could you indicate where you derived this from WP:RS, as you now contend on the WP:RS talk page? Could you show me there was enough talk page consensus for your wording to be inserted in this policy page? For example, above I see Septentrionalis/Pmanderson saying we should go back to *primary source* wording. I didn't see you reply to that, only pressing your own wording directly on the policy page, without prior talk. The note you left here (the beginning of this section) was only written after your last series of six edits.
Could you give some more clarity about your mode of operation? -- Francis Schonken 23:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I just wish to note some historical revisionism around June 3 in Francis' account, when I was involved. There was no "discussion" in talk here - Francis made a bold edit and simply mentioned it in talk at the same time. I restored the deletion. Gimmetrow 00:43, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
What is this all about? Why so many diffs persented as "evidence". Evidence of what, exactly? It is about time that editors be more candid and direct. If an editor has a grudge against another, it would be much easier if these are resolved candindly rather than by "evidence" of diffs. This is not an ArbCom case. It is becoming quite annoying and tedious to have to deal with so much animosity, rather than amicably discuss how this very important policy can be improved, if at all. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Terry and Kenosis, can you say why you prefer "a threshold" to "the threshold." It seems to me that the latter is accurate. There is one threshold for inclusion, and that is "verifiability by reference to a reliable, published source." SlimVirgin (talk) 01:43, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
First of all, changes to such a major policy should not go from proposal to implementation in only a week. Consensus requires the opportunity for people to discuss, and is not reached by rushing. The matter at hand:
This policy does not need to redundantly define verifiability. The meaning of verifiability used here is quite common; it is in fact the dominant meaning of the word. The following sentence clearly and unequivocally states what is meant by this policy, without needing circumlocutions. — Centrx→ talk • 03:44, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, several days ago we informally proposed to backtrack to the last stable version - I think it's this one:
So far, I have seen no opposition. Do you think this needs to be a formal proposal? AvB ÷ talk 19:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the time between the first appearance of the current wording on Talk and its implementation on the policy page was two (2) days and, only a couple of hours after it was implemented, we find an opposition to it and further discussion about it. That is, it was still in formation.
The meaning of verifiability is still clarified in what I propose, it just doesn't go through the gymnastics of saying "Verifiability in this context means". The proper analogy would be saying "I want to date someone who is a little bit crazy, someone who is spontaneously fun." without the excess of saying "I mean...in this sense, not that other sense."
The following dictionary meanings are not necessary for this argument to hold. "Verifiable" means 'able to be verified'. The way in which statements are verified on Wikipedia is by the rules of evidence on Wikipedia, both here and at Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Here are the meanings in the Oxford English Dictionary (2d ed. 1989) with relevant quotations:
Note that "verifiability" means only "the fact of being verifiable". There are also the related words, verify and verification. I will not list quotations for these because it would be too lengthy and tiresome. Suffice it to say that the OED derives its definitions from carefully selected quotations.
Webster 1913 and Webster's New World College Dictionary, 1999, based on the principle International, also concur with these meanings. Webster 1913 more strongly concurs, with its only meaning being "Capable of being verified; confirmable." — Centrx→ talk • 04:16, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
This is the first (and so far only) response opposing the proposed reversion to the last stable consensus version of the first paragraph of the lead section. Your opposition could do with some fleshing out, such as addressing the reasons given above for the proposal. In summary, the departure from the older text (language backed by long years of consensus) brought about a chain reaction of repairs that ended in a dispute that could not be resolved or repaired in the text (about interpretations by veteran Wikipedians of what constitutes a reliable source). I originally supported the changes to some extent, including the one by Francis (from "by" to "in"). After some discussion I noticed that the old text was sufficiently fuzzy to accommodate both interpretations and became convinced we need that amount of fuzziness here because the community consensus is fuzzy on the subject. This means that we must backtrack or otherwise solve the problem that there are two acceptable interpretations doing the rounds. From there we can once again discuss the problems editors have with the old text. I should add that I have not changed my opinion about the speed with which those changes were adopted. In fact I think they should be reverted for that reason alone. Too fast folks. Thanks.
AvB ÷
talk
09:29, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I almost hate to suggest this because I think we all agree there has been too much change recently. But I've been toying with the idea of suggesting we rename the policy to Wikipedia:Attribution. There would be two advantages:
(1) It would get rid of the confusion over verifiable, which is related to truth, whereas our policy is not; and
(2) It would answer a question often asked by newbies (and some oldies) viz. does verifiability mean that all edits should in theory be sourced. If we think in terms of "attribution," then we can make clear that all edits must indeed be "attributable," but not all edits must actually be "attributed."
I know that "A not T" doesn't sound as good as "V not T," but apart from the loss of our catchphrase, I think the change would be beneficial. However, I know there has been too much back and forth, so I'm mentioning this here only to give people something to mull over for the future. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Sourceable? Just a thought. When it's used on article talk pages, editors usually mean, or take it to mean, "verifiable," Wikipedia style. AvB ÷ talk 12:38, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
That is what this policy has been averaging for the past week. Isn't this far too many edits? And some that are marked "minor" don't strike me as minor. AGF and all, but this observer thinks that slowing down would be a very good idea. Robert A.West ( Talk) 05:07, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I would argue that there needs to be a specific need, raised by a specific concern, in a specific situation presented by an editor, with a clear proposal for modifying policy that has served us well for several years and for which there is undeniable consensus, before we contemplate such modification. These haphazard edits and word-smithing are a royal waste of editors' time. We have an encyclopedia to write. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)