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"even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer." So says the policy, which describes "blogs" as examples of "self-published sources".
Yet an LA Times editor reportedly wrote to "bloggers" "asking you all not to blog about [John Edwards and his alleged affair] until further notified." This guy is their supervisor, such that presumably they could be fired if they didn't obey.
There are plenty of non-blog sources that don't have this "degree of scrutiny" exhibited over what they say. It accordingly seems to me that this "never" prohibition on citing blogs in a BLP should be reconsidered. I should think that it's the messenger, not the medium, that is reliable or unreliable. Bdell555 ( talk) 14:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I reverted this significant rewrite of SELFPUB, as I don't see a discussion here about it. What's the issue and intent? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 23:00, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
ImperfectlyInformed either split off self-published experts from self-published sources, or self-published sources from self-published experts, depending upon how you wish to frame it. Acceptable self-published sources are those that originate from experts, so the two sections cover the exact same issue. What is the point of doing this split? I don’t see anyone in support of doing this except for ImperfectlyInformed. Are there any others? Having two sections within the same policy that cover the same issue, is an open invitation to edit warring. Each side can simply quote the section that is more favorable to their side or pov. The only way around this is to have the wording of both sections so close as to be duplicates of one another. The idea is to make policy more use friendly, and that generally means simpler. Having two competing sections is not simpler; having two duplicate sections is not simpler. Having one section that gets to the point quickly and clearly is the most user friendly approach. Brimba ( talk) 10:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Let's say someone has written an article claiming that anarcho-communism is not a form of anarchism. Specifically, an anarchist Benjamin Tucker wrote "Yes, genuine Anarchism is consistent Manchesterism, and Communistic or pseudo-Anarchism is inconsistent Manchesterism." That would be a questionable source, correct? Would it be a questionable source because he's an anarchist and anarchists are extremists? Or is it because it is an opinion piece? Why exactly would it be a questionable source? Is it a questionable source? If so, then does that mean this could not be said in the anarcho-communism article "Benjamin Tucker claimed that anarcho-communism is not a geniune form of anarchism"? The policy appears not even to allow that because it says questionable sources cannot be used as sources about themselves if it is "contentious" and "involves claims about third parties," correct? Richard Blatant ( talk) 16:28, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Let me see if I can word this better. If Benajimin Tucker writes an essay that says "Anarcho-communism is not a form of anarchism," then it could not even be mentioned that Benjamin Tucker said this because what he has said is "contentious." Is that correct? Richard Blatant ( talk) 15:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I changed "Self-published and questionable sources may only be used as sources about themselves, and then only if...it is not contentious"
to "Self-published and questionable sources may only be used as sources about themselves, and then only if...it is not contentions that the information about themselves is true".
Some changed it back. What was wrong with it? What is meant by "it is not contentious?" Is it saying we can't note an opinion that a questionable source has if the opinion is contentious or is it saying we can't note information about the source if the truthhood of the information about the source itself/himself is contentious? Which one is it, and why does it have to be cryptic? Richard Blatant ( talk) 19:40, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
The next problem is this statement "it does not involve claims about third parties." If a politician someone writes an editorial calling another politician a "liar," for example, I don't think the policy intends to forbid it being mentioned that that is his position, but that's what it does if you read it literally. I think it's trying to forbid it from being used as a source for us, the editors, to state in an article that that politician is a liar. So I propose it be reworded as well, to something like, "the material is not used for the article's editorial to make claims about third parties." Richard Blatant ( talk) 22:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Next is this: "the material used is relevant to the notability of the subject being discussed." What does this even mean? Can someone explain what is meant by this, so we can reword it to say what is meant in a way that is readily understandable? Richard Blatant ( talk) 01:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
"the material used is something which the source is notable for having knowledge of or commenting upon." That’s a good ballpark, probably better than the current wording. Brimba ( talk) 02:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, the last line i see a problem with "the material cited does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject." What is "the subject?" Is it talking about the subject of the article? Richard Blatant ( talk) 02:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I suspect that this: “the material is not used to make contentious claims about the source;” should likely be trimmed to “the material is not used to make contentious claims”. At the very least that would avoid coatracking; i.e. so and so believes XYZ to be true. You could introduce contentious material on the grounds that’s its simply what the subject believes to be true; not that it is verifiably true. The “not used to make claims about third parties;” covers a lot of ground, but not everything. What’s left out can still be introduced through a statement of beliefs or some other mechanism. Brimba ( talk) 03:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I just noticed something that the policy doesn't seem to allow. Let's say if an ex-president writes an op-ed in a newspaper, and happens to say his favorite ice cream is chocolate. It's not relevant to the subject in which he is notable, so therefore it can't be noted in his own article what his favorite ice cream flavor is. That seems a bit strange. Any comments on this? Richard Blatant ( talk) 03:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
In reply to Shirahadasha, I think the point here is that these only relate to articles in which the subject of the article is used as a source; for example an article about a particular NGO in which material from that NGO is cited within that article. So the context is quite limited. What we are saying is that if you’re notable as a chest player, the finite details of your political views are not relevant to your article. Brimba ( talk) 04:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Reverted to Brimba's August 10 version; the changes made in the last few days introduced redundant text to every line, and introduced a lot of weasly-ness to long-standing and important policy. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 13:43, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
"the material used is relevant to a subject in which the source has notability;" What?!! Can this be made clear. --neon white talk 21:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, in the last few days,
Fasach Nua (
talk ·
contribs) has been removing information from articles about national football teams (
example), citing
WP:PROVEIT as reason. Naturally people reverted it and he reverted them and so on, we all know how it works.
I think he interprets
WP:PROVEIT the way that every article needs to have the sources directly in the article, even if it's just a list pointing to other articles.
Others, like myself, think it is enough for
WP:PROVEIT that the articles that are linked to provide the sources in question. But as I completely accept that he might be right, I wanted to get some input here, how to deal with this situation. I stopped reverting him but I doubt others will and I'd like to see the situation cleared up before people start really edit warring.
So please, tell me which interpretation of
WP:PROVEIT you think to be correct or if removing information like in aforementioned example can be done citing it. Please forgive me, if I posted this at the wrong place.
So
Why
review me! 08:14, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Changing the WP:SELFPUB tag may seem to create immediate logical consistency, however it has disrupted all the previous links to the specific policy, now known as WP:SELFQUEST. I suggest restoring the previous WP:SELFPUB and also implementing the WP:SELFQUEST. Point taken but the redirect isn't helpful. Zulu Papa 5 ( talk) 18:11, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
This page currently has 14 listed shortcuts: WP:V, WP:VERIFY, WP:SOURCE, WP:BURDEN, WP:PROVEIT, WP:SOURCES, WP:QS, WP:SPS, WP:SELFQUEST, WP:SELFPUB, WP:RSUE, WP:VUE, WP:NONENG, WP:REDFLAG. Its easy to reach an agreement that 14 is too many, and we could maybe all agree in principle that 7 is a good number to shoot for; we could even cite The Magical Number Seven, Plus or Minus Two as a semi-logical reason for doing so. The problems arise when you attempt to actually eliminate a particular shortcut. There is always someone who will object. In May this page had 25 shortcuts listed; by the end of June that had been pared down to 10, and now we are back up to 14.
IMO, if the shortcut has been fewer then 500 times its not in common usage; that would be 6 of the 14. Further any shortcut that violates the WP:SHORT section on readability, should be a potential candidate for delisting. If you take those two qualifiers together you come up with at a minimum 4 shortcuts that could be removed. Of course that’s my system, and everyone has their own way of doing things.
“Self-published and questionable sources about themselves” is NOT a subsection of “Self-published sources” any more or less than it’s a subsection of “Questionable sources”, all three are subsections of “Sources”. Having said that, I would not object to delisting all shortcuts associated with “Questionable sources”, and all shortcuts associated with “Self-published and questionable sources about themselves” and leave only one shortcut listed for “Self-published sources”. I think this would function as well as the current system, and have the advantage of editors only being expected to recognize one shortcut, not four. Do I think that will happen, not likely, but I would support it. Brimba ( talk) 16:20, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the tip too look at Wikipedia:SHORT#Changing_shortcuts. This discussion seem to be going off topic from the original WP:SELFPUB tag change. The policy indicates it would be a disruption to change. Zulu Papa 5 ( talk) 18:00, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I have observed an exchange between two users (and myself) , User talk:Madman2001 and User talk:Hrafn. Apparently Hrafn deletes the main body of articles because they have been tagged as containing unsourced statements for two-three months. When the content is restored Hrafn cites WP:PROVEIT. What worries me that he does not adress any of the facts tagged with missing sources in the article and indeed it is uncertain whether s/he reads the articles or know anything about the topic - since s/he doesn't contribute any evaluation of the claims verifiability but seems to automatically delete paragraphs with an unsourced tag. As far as my understanding of policy goes this is a fairly extreme interpretation of the rules, and an interpretation that I believe will lead to the demise of wikipedia if it is carried to its extreme. In the past, the sourcing question was much less strict and many articles that were not obviously erroneous could be allowed to stand without sources, untill such a time that specific facts in them were challenged. In my early days on wikipedia I wrote many articles only citing sources for claims that I knew were likely to be challenged. My question then is whether it is a community decision to now strictly delete any unsourced claims in wikipedia? Or whether such an interpretation would be too extreme? ·Maunus·ƛ· 15:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
<unindent>This "fixing the article" has involved elimination of a large amount of cruft that was explicitly attributed to the letter, but which proved (once a copy of the letter was found) not to be mentioned in it. I think this proves the danger of allowing unverifiable information to remain, unchallenged, in an article. Hrafn Talk Stalk 17:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
A very notable author (has a Wikipedia article) publishes a blog. On the author's blog, the author reviews a book. The book isn't very well-known, and while there is enough on it for a Wikipedia article, it's not a great article, and could use some more information. Is it appropriate to say in the book's article that "Author X reviewed Book in her blog, and called it 'fascinating reading' [1]", giving the blog as a reference? Is this a violation of WP:SELFPUB, or is a self published source okay when giving the views of the (notable) self-publisher? Thanks. Neıl ☄ 12:15, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
User:Cazort made an edit that, I think, made a legitimate albeit minor point. A tiny number of sources that can reasonably be termed self-published are actually well-regarded in their field. This is an unusual-enough case that I felt that a full paragraph was unwarranted, and reduced it to a sentence that I hope meets with approbation. If reliable sources cite a source as authoritative, then Wikipedia shouldn't argue with that determination.
The few instances I can think of involve researchers of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, from wealthy families, whose works of genuine scholarship were published by respectable institutions that had been heavily endowed by their families. It would be reasonable to ask whether such works should be treated as self-published. It would also be reasonable to cite them as reliable sources, subject to the usual concerns about century-old works. Robert A.West ( Talk) 04:54, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
The wording
is being used to argue, as here, that newspapers are equally as reliable as academic books. I do not believe that this is the intent, and have inserted a stop-gap in this sentence to the effect that newspapers are most reliable where there aren't journals and books. The following sentence:
made clear, even without this edit, that the more checking is done on the source, the more reliable it is, but editors tend to quote sentences in isolation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:01, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I have made this into
This is in no sense intended as a change in policy, but a clarification of what has always been policy. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:11, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Your edits would directly contradict NPOV. “All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.” I would completely disagree with the statement “clarification of what has always been policy.” That is not policy. Preference has been given to the academic view within scientific, historical, social sciences, etc. We do not however rule out the use of other reliable sources once a peer-reviewed source exists; nor do once reliable sources become unreliable in the light of an academic source or peer-reviewed source. We use the best sources, and if they differ, we give both sides, we don’t automatically default to either side. Brimba ( talk) 04:15, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Brimba, just because one source is "more reliable" doesn't mean we use it, then exclude all "less reliable" sources. Creating a set hierarchy isn't a good idea. Magazines and newspapers with new issues published daily or weekly may be much more up to date than a textbook where new editions may only be released annually. Mr. Z-man 04:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Brimba, please explain this edit summary; it's not new wording. It's been here for ages, and the tweak PMA made to the wording was minor and didn't change the meaning. Can you explain what you're talking about with "new wording"? This is long-standing consensus. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 05:29, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
I also disagree with an express, universally-applicable hierarchy of reliability written into policy. We shouldn't attempt to write a one-size-fits-all judgment into policy in situations where common sense and good judgment will frequently be needed and where the judgment will often be out of place. I believe that there is a real danger, particularly on subjects which essentially involve opinions, values, etc., that the result will be to privelege university professors' opinions over other people's opinions. Best, -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 16:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Of course I read it. I don’t see it a being helpful as it reinforces the tone of the proceeding edits. At best its window dressing, at worst it reinforce the one size fits all mentality of academic is good, mainstream media is questionable until proven otherwise (by an academic source).
Wikipedia has a very bold vision statement:
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment.
That’s where we should be headed. Knowledge is knowledge, where the knowledge comes from is irrelevant. Anointing one source of knowledge as being superior to another source of knowledge is stupid on multiple levels. It also supposes that the anointed source of knowledge (be it academic, religious, mainstream, whatever) is benevolent enough to share the stage with other sources once it is anointed and others are categorized to a lesser statues. Once we have an anointed source, the supporters of that source are unlikely to be generous enough to allow a lot of competition. Hand them the keys to the city and being human beings, they are far more likely to seek purity, and then to define purity in ever narrower terms. Purity is the death knoll of Wikipedia. Wikipedia can survive a lot of things, but it can not survive a self-defeating behavior of that scale. It can not survive human pride. It can not survive a transition from allowing the free flow of information and knowledge to giving a preference to one source of information and knowledge over another. What serves Wikipedia well is having reliable sources, having an imposed hierarchy is counter productive, because whoever is on the top will place greater importance upon protecting their special status then they will place upon the importance of improving Wikipedia. Improving Wikipedia will simply equate with the elimination of impure or questionable alternatives, meaning anything that does not originate from the anointed source. You can not have an anointed source and have Wikipedia survive long term. The edits made here, regardless of the intent, are a clear step towards anointing academic sources. We need reliable sources; if a source is reliable Wikipedia needs it and is ill served by propping up one reliable source over another. Brimba ( talk) 02:46, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
A Festschrift ("a book honouring a respected academic and presented during his or her lifetime") is almost certainly scholarly and thus a WP:RS. But if it is unpublished, it is likely to be almost completely inaccessible, with only a few copies produced. This inaccessibility makes verifiability almost impossible. What level of accessibility is necessary for a source to be verifiable? This question would be fairly rare for secondary sources, but quite common for primary sources (which quite frequently are unpublished and exist only as a single copy in a single archive). Hrafn Talk Stalk 15:58, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Just a comment, without talking about the article that was brought up as an example: In Germany, Festschriften are used to honour people, true. Those published in the field of legal study though, as I have experienced myself, are not biased towards the person receiving it but he or she rather serves as a muse for the writers, i.e. they will write about a topic that he/she has worked on for many years and for which he/she is known for. The text itself will only represent the writer's viewpoint though and not the one of the person honoured. It's still a scientific legal essay as it would have been if it was published in a magazine or book. As for being unpublished, I think if it's avaibable in specific libraries it can be treated as a reliable source. Like a dissertation for example, which are not published in most cases but are readily available in university libraries (at least in my university they are). So Why 07:50, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I've seen material cited to peer review journal articles deleted in it's entiriety because of POV disputes. Shouldn't policy provide that once the citation is given, the burden is on those objecting to the material to demonstrate that it is wrong or inaccurate? (The current paragraph suggesting more explanation and evidence is great, but many just ignore it and delete.)
Moreover, if there is an inaccuracy or dispute about what a source really says about a topic, policy, or at least guidelines, should suggest that to avoid edit warring the solution is not to delete the cited material but to correct or clarify any inaccuracies by expanding the discussed source. This would help to prevent "censorship by dispute" approach used by some editors who appear to be on guard against sources which disagree with their POV.
I'd suggest something along the lines of the following (first paragraph is as is, to show flow) with my suggeted paragraph italicized:
Okay, it may be a bit too long, but this is just a draft to start the discussion. SaraNoon ( talk) 21:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
As I explained here we need a rule that allows for unsourced arguments/derivations. I suggested this formulation:
Count Iblis ( talk) 13:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Any simple mathematical calculation that reasonably educated readers can be expected to quickly and easily reproduce. For example, if given the population and the size of a specific area, then the population density of that area may be included. More complex calculations (for instance, those involving statistics, advanced algebra, or complex calculus) should not be included, because they require skills that common educated readers do not possess, or involve a large number of steps that may not be obvious, making it difficult to detect errors.
Is there any sort of consensus as to whether college newspapers are reliable thirdy party sources? I'm specifically looking at online papers hosted by "College Publisher network". Beside the banner at the top labeling as belonging to said network they seem to be more or less self-published and several of these have been used as sources to backup opinions on music related articles.
http://cpsite.collegepublisher.com/thecpnetwork/index.cfm
S. Luke 20:57, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi, maybe this is a weakness on my command of english, but I'm a bit in doubt about how should is to be understood in the contect of a policy. I understand that wikipedia policies are mandatory, however my understanding is that the word should does not indicate that something is mandatory but recommended (eg: a guideline); and that must is to indicate that a request needs to be fulfilled (eg: a policy). Can any experienced editor or administrator please clarify?
Thanks & regards,
DPdH (
talk) 04:53, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
I just realized another vague aspect of WP:SELFQUEST. When it refers to "Self-published and questionable sources", does that mean "questionable sources which are self-published", or does it mean "self-published or otherwise questionable sources", which would be more encompassing? Either way it could be stated more clearly. PSWG1920 ( talk) 08:35, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
That said, re-reading this pointed out what I believe is a genuine problem. The section entitled "Self-published sources" reads,
That sentence is directly contradicted by the sentence under discussion, probably because the second section was once upon a time the only exception to using self-published material. I assume that what we actually now mean is:
Comments, before I make the edit? Robert A.West ( Talk) 15:10, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
There was some previous discussion in the abstract on this edit [2], which made its appearance last week or before in Wikipedia Review. I think it would be useful to hash out here whether this undeniably self published comment is permissible even though it does not pertain to the blogger providing information about herself (other than her opinion of Wikipedia Review).
Essentially, some are arguing that it is acceptable for self published opinions to be included because the wording of WP:V can be interpreted to permit it. Is there such a loophole and, if so, should be policy be changed to close it?-- Janeyryan ( talk) 00:09, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Unindenting to comment here. I completely agree: there is no reason not to use a self-published source as a reference for the opinions of its author. The important thing is whether those opinions are notable, and whether or not they could be considered undue weight. Neither is a verifiability issue. With regards to the specific situation, I can't see any reason to consider that Ms Cramer's opinion on the site in question is in fact notable. Particularly, it certainly isn't notable enough to be included in the lead paragraph, given that it is less notable than many of the other comments quoted lower down in the article from notable news sources like The Guardian and The Independent. JulesH ( talk) 13:31, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, folks can be prejudice when it comes to self-published sources, both in the actual source opinions and in excluding them. The reasoning to exclude always has to do with the editorial controls that are established by the source to prevent error. Good luck in working on this, it won't be easy to move forward. In my case, I have folks wanting to exclude "self published" material in a biography about the self-publisher. The folks aim to exclude all the self-published material when wiki policy says it can be included on a case-by-case basis when considering a list of criteria WP:SELFPUB. So even if you achieve a case-by-case exception criteria for "opinion". Folks will still want to point blank exclude. But really, opinion belongs in editorial pages and appropriate biography references, not in NPOV articles. Zulu Papa 5 ( talk) 21:34, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure this was brought up above. We have one newspaper blog where neither the identity of the author nor his literary merit is in question. But I still have two problems with the use of his blog: 1) Why didn't the paper publish it under its own byline? Hardcopy is limited by newsprint available for that issue. Web space has some limitations but can presumably squeeze in a legitimate article. Why hasn't the paper done so? It seems to me that this represents a
WP:OR problem here. The paper did not consider it "news" but we do? Isn't that one of the ideas about finding it in a legitimate publication to start with? (I think this was approached above with the concept of "peer review") 2) Publications online or off have a copy editor that is supposed to verify facts. This is missing in a blog. While the quality of writing may not be an issue but not everyone remembers things perfectly. Or hears them perfectly or having done both, records them perfectly, even "credible" authors! The function of a copy editor is missing in a blog. There is no "second opinion." Oversight is missing. And don't think that because it is in a blog for a few days that the publication feels any more responsible for it. Quite the opposite, in fact they may be thinking "Thank God we aren't responsible for that"!
Student7 (
talk) 20:44, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
I have been working on the WP:Scientific standards article which is a potential policy. I'm here because I expressed frustration over the limits of this policy and another editor suggest I address them here. My question to those who work on this page is: How difficult would it be to get a section on scientific sourcing into WP:V? Right now major issues with sourcing science include the need for editors to understand: A) The only acceptable primary source for primary scientific evidence in modern science is a peer-reviewed journal. B) Primary peer-reviewed journals are not good sources for evidence of consensus in science. C) Patents are not a valid sources of scientific evidence. Actually (C) is probably the most important because at no point does WP policy address patents; and patents come up over and over in science articles. Just wondering if these points could be engineered into this policy a bit more explicitly or do folks here support the idea of Wikipedia:Scientific_standards. Just looking for input.-- OMCV ( talk) 02:09, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
What do you all think about adding a section on specificness versus vagueness? To give you an idea of what I have in mind, I came across the following sentence in the introduction to the article on the Victorian Certificate of Education:
The VCE is considered to be one of the more rigorous secondary education programs in the world ....
No reference was cited. My immediate question was: considered by whom? By a majority of university admissions officers worldwide? By a couple dozen teachers in Melbourne? By the person who wrote the sentence?
In its vague state, the sentence goes beyond unverifiable—it's useless in the context of an encyclopedia article. If a reference exists that can confirm an established opinion as described by that sentence, then the reference will indicate who holds that opinion ("by 85% of a worldwide sampling of university admissions officers"), and in that case it is incumbent upon the editor to provide that information, along with the citation ("A poll shows that a majority ...."). Therefore, even with a citation, there is no reason to assert the existence of an opinion without indicating whose opinion it is. Without the citation, the sentence shouldn't be there at all.
Truly, when I see a sentence like this in an article, I quickly suspect that what's really going on is that the writer holds that opinion himself or just thinks it's a prevalent opinion, and wanted to mention it without making it look like a WP:NPOV violation, rationalizing that the sentence is technically true, while ignoring the fact that it fails tests for notability and verifiability.
This is a single example. I'm sure the idea could be expanded on, and make a valuable addition to this policy. Comments? — Largo Plazo ( talk) 16:32, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Note discussion on Wikipedia_talk:Citing_sources which proposes moving detail currently under Wikipedia:Citing sources#When to cite sources to this project page. You're encouraged to discuss it there (under the subject heading " Let's get the relationship with WP:V right") if you want to put forward an argument one way or other. -- SallyScot ( talk) 11:34, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry to bother you with this, but we have a professional journalist at WT:MEDRS that's apparently mad because the guideline for medicine-related articles prefers getting scientific facts straight from good scientific sources, instead of assuming that he and his colleagues in the mass media industry never make a mistake and never introduce accidental biases and never fail to communicate important information. (I'm sure I mangle his position substantially, but you can go read his endless comments for yourself, e.g., here, here, here, here, here, here.)
For several days now, he has been repeatedly demanding -- politely but tendentiously -- that the WP:MEDRS guideline provide citations to independent, third-party reliable sources to prove that the advice of Wikipedia editors on this point is verifiable. His excuse for this demand is that WP:V's nutshell says that "Material challenged or likely to be challenged, and all quotations, must be attributed to a reliable, published source" instead of saying "Material in the article namespace that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and all quotations, must be attributed to a reliable, published source." It is apparently not good enough for the policy to specify in the lead (as it does) that the policy applies to articles, because he prefers to apply an expansive definition of the term article.
Can we update this policy to say "Attention: This policy does not apply to the Wikipedia: namespace, such as Wikipedia's internal policies and guidelines"? Is there a better way to address this? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 19:43, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
(undent) OK, I think the problem is this. apparently there is an ongoing discussion about whether newspaper articles can represent valid source on medical issues. one editor claimed that "most news articles fail to discuss important issues such as evidence quality, costs, and risks versus benefits", the journalist ( Nbauman)) asked for a source for the claim, the source was given, and then Nbauman asked that the source be cited in the RSMRA guideline itself to support the claim. this devolved into a debate about whether the wp:RS policy applied to policies and guidelines themselves (if and when those guidelines have to refer to facts). about which I have two things to say:
I'm going to leave a note over there reminding everyone that newspapers ought to be considered (barring evidence to the contrary) reliable secondary sources suitable for use in wikipedia. don't know if that will help, but... -- Ludwigs2 00:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
The text currently reads
In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; usually followed by university-level textbooks; then by magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; then by mainstream newspapers. Special cases may arise; and editors should be careful not to exclude a point of view merely because it lacks academic credentials. As a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work, the more reliable it is.
I would argue that there is the omission of consensus documents like committee reports from the National Academies of Science, United National security council scientific bodies (think IAEA reports), and official standards published by standards bodies (i.e. IEEE's standard on firewire or CAT-5 cabling is the authoritative document on the topic). Pdbailey ( talk) 22:26, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
The passage, twice amended and twice reverted today, states two things, and does so reasonably clearly IMO. Extra steps are required when citing a non-english source on a potentially-contentious point. As I read it, these steps are not required if the assertion is routine. Thus, a plot summary of a German short story might be sourced to the original text without reproduction, but an assertion that this same short story was influential in some way probably should have the relevant text cited. This is, I believe, a deliberate choice, and a reasonable one. It should not, IMO, be changed without consensus. Robert A.West ( Talk) 22:00, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
<undent> In my opinion there's some validity in loosening the requirement to provide the foreign language text being used as a source. The relevant section is "they need to quote the relevant portion of the original text in a footnote or in the article, so readers can check that it agrees with the article content. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors." and my suggestion would be "they should, as far as possible, provide a link to the original text online, or quote relevant portions of the original text in a footnote or in the article, so readers can check that it agrees with the article content. Translations published by reliable sources are regarded as a source in English, and are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors." Hope that clarifies the ways in which I think it should be loosened to meet the concerns expressed above. Note that quoting sections would allow ellipses to avoid copyright issues with providing the whole text. . dave souza, talk 21:35, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
No-one's yet given anything like a concrete example. Above I asked about S. A. Andrée's Arctic balloon expedition of 1897 - it's a featured article which relies for the most part on Swedish sources. Nowhere does it quote the Swedish in a footnote. Do you fear that the sources contained "words and idioms that do not have a direct English equivalent"? Do you think maybe poor confused Bishonen got it all wrong? Do you feel it would be reasonable to remove material which is only backed up by Swedish sources? Haukur ( talk) 17:22, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
I am talking myself into a stance of "supply foreign language texts cited on demand". In an ideal world, I would support that as policy; but we can't. Editors abandon articles and leave Wikipedia altogether. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:32, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
I feel all these points seriously need to be stressed uner REDFLAG, as many people win the argument of having "verified sources of high quality" for an exceptional claim, when they might have an Oxford-produced polemic, and something similar, and a big hole where all the other righfully expected refs would be. The university presses actually roll throughout the night printing texts - the name itself does not trump them over less prestigious outlets (ie 1 Oxford Press does not = 10 local newspapers!). The 'verification is all that matters' argument can get a lot of mileage, and too few people know about WP:REDFLAG, which is an excellent and extrememly important part of Wikipedia. For exceptional claims, people surely need to look at the context and background of the available source(s) too. Debate could be encouraged at that point. -- Matt Lewis ( talk) 13:57, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
One of the things that has bothered me in Wikipedia is the use of quotes from sources that engage in Ad hominem attacks bordering on violations of Wikipedia:Libel such as 'no reputable, honest, or serious scholar, scientist, doctor, etc supports position x'. I dislike the use of such quotes because they basically say that any professional that holds position x is not reputable, honest, or serious regardless of their credentials because they hold position x (ie it is totally circular logic) and because such claims are essentially defamatory in nature regarding any person that holds position x and have no place in an encyclopedia. I do make a distinction between these types of sources and ones that say 'most scholars, scientists, doctors, etc regard position x as having no validity' because the second shows there is some debate on the issue and more in keeping with NPOV. I think it would be a good idea to have Verifiability expressly state that quotes that engage in Ad hominem arguments cannot be used regardless of who made them or in what publication they appeared as they clearly break the NPOV provisions.-- BruceGrubb ( talk) 06:12, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Bailey is a sexologist that has many enemies in the transgender community. Every single word in the articles related to him has been fought over five or six times, including whether or not Alice Dreger really used the exact word "harrassment" in describing the concerted efforts of some transwomen to have him fired/taken to court for practicing medicine without a license/putting school pictures of his kids on the web with inappropriate sexual remarks/etc. In these instances, quoting a single word is better than leaving the reader with the impression that the choice of terms was an editorial judgment. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 04:31, 21 September 2008 (UTC)According to Dreger, the allegations of misconduct could accurately be described as "harassment", [2] and an "anti-Bailey campaign". [3]
I see one of the last things in the talk archives was someone pointing to WEASEL. It's inevitable that, when people are deciding whether to keep material or not, they'll often choose the reason that requires the least thought, like the presence of a word mentioned at
WP:WEASEL or
WP:Words to avoid or
WP:PEACOCK. But inevitability isn't a reason to encourage it. If material fails the
WP:BURDEN test here at WP:V, that should be the preferred reason to talk about it, tag it, and/or remove it. A quick dismissal based on the presence of "bad" words is the least persuasive kind of argument, and edit summaries that just say "per WEASEL" raise an
WP:AGF issue, I think.
In fact, I think the current wording, "... but editors may object if you remove material without giving them sufficient time to provide references", is actually pushing people in the direction of the "quick fix" per WEASEL or WORDS, and this is a bad thing (which kills me, since I supported a version of the current wording vigorously in April). Without "breaking the wiki", is there some phrase we could insert that would allow people to remove material quickly without painting a picture of a looming objection, if they believe the material can never be sourced, due to being non-supportable and/or non-falsifiable? I know that WEASEL and WORDS attempt to do this, but I'd prefer to focus people on core content policy whenever something is being done for what is essentially a core content policy reason. - Dan
Dank55 (
send/receive) 20:49, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Usually people jump all over recommendations like that, so I'm going to assume that was difficult to follow and try to break it down:
In regards to this revert, if you self-published a book about someone else, who would be the second party in that case? I thought I finally understood the meaning of "third-party source", but maybe I don't. PSWG1920 ( talk) 20:46, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
This topic certainly has come up on WP:RS a lot over the years, and I assume here. Proposals usually are shot down with the excuse that “it all depends - it has to be done on a case by case basis.” Having done a pretty good study of Reliable Sources Noticeboard Discussions, I can see a lot of the repeated questions and answers involve advocacy group and publications sources that are reliable in some respects and less so in others. These range from Southern Poverty Law Center to LewRockwell.com to Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting to FrontPage Magazine. (See page for whole list.)
I think to clarify this for our many many confused and frustrated editors, we need to include between “Reliable sources” and “Self-published sources” something like the Draft below, either in this article or in WP:RS - or even both:
Carol Moore 22:42, 24 September 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc
Wikipedia as an institution appears to be a draw for people who care more about rules than substance. There's a certain personality type that operates this way, but people who go about their lives doing this sort of thing tend to exclude actual thought & meaning.
But wikipedia isn't about that, it's an encyclopedia, right? But then again it tends to discriminate against blogs & new media & online forum content which may be simultaneously cataloged in blog indexes.
If you have the personality type that matches up with what I've described all this will be completely over your head and meaningless most likely. To you the process is more important than the content of a given submission. You as a rules & process person actually have no perception about the social weight of a given submission. And if the process hurts content, that doesn't matter to you: you're a process person and nothing else. You're a robot or an automaton.
This discussion relates to an attempted addition to meetin.org. [4] Z2401 ( talk) 05:56, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
Content over process has the sound of a good idea. But I think that's a simplistic way at looking at the current actuality of Wikipedia dynamics. In a small group where everyone knows each other, process is very informal and doesn't get in the way of productive work. However, in a project as massive as Wikipedia, process is the only way we can collaborate meaningfully and productively to produce the quality content that is the purpose of this project. With the size of Wikipedia, it's impossible to even recognize all the editors, never mind know them, or know of them. A small town doesn't need traffic lights, but a large city would have never ending gridlock without them. Just look at some of the contentious article with multiple edit wars, drive by vandalism, and groups of editors that can't seem to agree on anything. That would be the norm throughout much more of Wikipedia without policy and guidelines on what is, and what isn't, permissible here, and processes that encourage collaboration and consensus building over non constructive activity. — Becksguy ( talk) 08:59, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I've added a note that other sites mirroring WP content are not any more qualified as reliable sources than the original WP page they copy ( [7]). Otherwise people who would like to circumvent the restriction against citing WP articles just cite one of the mirror sites, and we get circular references. Example: [8] Jayen 466 14:24, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I recently found an article, Meganekko that was unreferenced and judging by the history and talk page unlikely to attract any references ever. So because I thought this page says that such material needs to be deleted, I listed it for deletion. But the discussion closed with no consensus. Quite apart from nonsensical replies such as that the material in the article isn't challenged, even though I obviously did, one editor stated that this page does not say that unverifiable material should be deleted. So what do I do now? I'm reluctant to touch the matter again, but I also can't let it go like that because that would turn this policy page into a dead letter. Something has to be done, but what? Should I stub the article? But then there is already a problem: I have my doubts with even the correctness of the shortest possible description of the article's subject. Should I wait and relist? But how long will be long enough to establish that no sources will come? Maybe someone could add a tutorial on this page about what to do when confronted with an article that violates the policy. Shinobu ( talk) 10:50, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
It should point out that, when giving a plot summary or fictional character biography, this rule generally is reversed (it should have first-party sources). If my point here isn't clear enough, tell me. [[User:Tutthoth-Ankhre|Tutthoth-Ankhre~ The Pharaoh of the Universe]] ( talk) 00:48, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Added this line: "The source cited must directly support the information as it is presented in the article." I believe it's uncontroversial. lk ( talk) 07:12, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
The guideline right now clearly describes high quality reliable sources, and describes how to treat fringe and extremist material. However, this leaves out a whole swath of sources that don't easily fall into either category. How are we supposed to treat things like a new minor magazine, a small town newspaper, a congressional testimony, a white paper issued by a major organization, Krugman's blog on NYT, a magazine published by the Catholic Church? I would like the page to spell out clearly that some 'questionable sources' are not 'fringe' or 'extremist', ie. an article from a new magazine is not the same as an article from a newspaper published by the Communist Party of America; and also describe how such questionable but not fringe sources may be used. lk ( talk) 10:19, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
My point is that we have guidelines for how to treat solid reliable sources, and guidelines for how to treat obvious fringe sources. But we don't have guidelines for how to treat many sources, that lie somewhere in between.
I've seen adhoc solutions, but it would be nice if it were written out somewhere. lk ( talk) 16:56, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm being reverted on this edit where I add the word 'fringe' to the section on Questionable sources. I believe it's uncontroversial, but Vision thing (who apparently thinks some Fringe sources are reliable sources) insists that I get consensus first. So, I would like to ask, 'is it ok to describe Fringe sources as Questionable sources'? By 'Fringe', I mean as defined by WP:Fringe and WP:PSCI. lk ( talk) 15:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
The first paragraph says: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true."
This worries me greatly. I mean if Wikipedia is supposed to be the "sum of all human knowledge" then how can we only allow verifiability?
There must be some give-and-take involved here. I'm sure that this is an age old question, but please humour me. I've seen many maths additions be removed because of lack of verifiability, even though the things written are quite clearly true!
If I were to have enough money I could self-publish a book full of a whole range of falsehoods and then come onto Wikipedia and post the stuff because it's verifiable by the definition of these guidelines. (I had previously argued against self-published work but found myself against a more vocal minority.) For example: I could cite many verifiable sources that say that NASA never went to the moon, and (disgustingly) that the Nazi holocaust never happened.
If I'm talking a load of rubbish then please let me know nicely!
Δεκλαν Δαφισ (talk) 19:34, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
I've jut been reading my latest copy of Private Eye in which it suggests that the Daily Mirror used an (essentially vandalised) copy of a page on a Cypriot football team called Omonia Nicosia with a joke supporters group inserted into it. Private Eye's assertion is that our verifiability policy is essentially daft, given that it requires simply attribution in a third-party reliable source, such as a mainstream newspaper, which would allow this "joke" to be included as factual. I'm uncertain on this specific case, but I've seen similar point brought up before. Whilst I'm happy that in general we may catch these problems, do we have any procedures in place to prevent this, or specific guidance? This is an issue, since it impinges on our reputation and the quality of the encyclopeadia as a whole. Any thoughts? Fritzpoll ( talk) 10:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
It's not just tabloids like the Daily Mirror - a dubious "fact" from Wikipedia found its way into Ronnie Hazlehurst's obituries in several far more reputable newspapers, including The Times (see Talk:Ronnie_Hazlehurst#The_SClub_7_Hoax). The Times retracted it fairly quickly, but similar instances could easily have fallen through the net. Since otherwise good sources may well do this from time to time, I don't see a way to exclude the possibility of this sort of feedback loop completely, though it might well help to suggest that for unlikely facts, sources which pre-date the Wikipedia article are preferred. Iain99 Balderdash and piffle 14:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
The source cited must directly support the information as it is presented in the article (When there is dispute about whether the article text is fully supported by the given source, direct quotes from the source and any other details requested should be provided as a courtesy to substantiate the reference.).
The current wording could be misunderstood if a reliable sources cites another (reliable) source to support the information as it is presented in the article. This practice is very common in peer reviewed publications. We have a section in the citation guideline to cover this (see WP:CITE#SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT). I would suggest removing the word "directly" from the sentence.-- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 09:32, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Looking at the new text, I'd like to suggest a further change to prune and tighten up:
Any objections? -- ROGER DAVIES talk 09:37, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I've been writing aviation-related articles for about a decade now. During that time I've come to rely on Joe Baugher's extensive list of American Military Aircraft. This list consists mostly of articles created by scraping other sources, essentially identical to the process used to create articles for the Wikipedia. They tend to be much longer than suitable for a Wikipedia article, but the creation process is similar, and the results excellent.
On several occasions I have been able to check his references after the fact. I have yet to find a single error that isn't in the original source. The simple fact that he includes his references in the articles is a good indicator of their quality, IMHO.
So now with that out of the way, I would like to gather some opinions on whether or not this is a suitable reference source. It is claimed that it is not, because it is a self-published source. However, the criterion right above SPS, "Reliable sources", states "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.", a label that his works fit to a T.
Soooo, which is it? In my opinion, Reliable trumps SPS. Further, IMHO, that SPS's primary concern is weeding out low-quality sources like moon-hoax conspiracy sites, which are generally SPS, and not to weed out high-quality sources just because they are SPS.
Am I interpreting this correctly?
Maury Markowitz ( talk) 21:00, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Done! Maury Markowitz ( talk) 17:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
[Note: This section used to the part of the section above, '... fringe group a questionable source?']
Having heard one of the editors involved in these changes misquote WP:V and WP:RS essentially to assert that a certain political/economic class of widely quoted sources are basically all fringe wackos who aren't reliable at wikipedia, you'll have to pardon me if I grow a bit suspicious when the editor makes/supports changes that make pages with "opinons" be the first most questionable category!! The relevant changes are in the second sentence.
Because sites that rely "heavily on rumors and personal opinions" has been moved up first it casts suspicion on many sites (left, right and libertarian) that offer opinions promoting allegedly minority views, often from both lay people and experts, and infers that even if a renowned academic expert published there with footnotes, it's too "questionable" a source to use the article! I think it is best to go back to the original so the emphasis starts with extremist and promotional. Also "personal opinions" might be modified to "lay person personal opinions" just be 100% clear. Carol Moore 15:25, 10 October 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc
I read the complete section on foreign languages and discussion on it. The question I have is that if there is an English source on an issue that says, for example, value of X is 7, and there's a non-English source that says, no in fact X is 17, since a source in English is available that has the 'value of X', does non-English source become inadmissible? Or since the viewpoint is different, both are admissible as contradicting point of views?
I tend to believe latter, but I want to get some expert advice before going back on the article and pushing for the updates. Thanks. Omer ( talk) 08:57, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
I've recently been into heavy discussions at FAC's etc about the use of foreign sources. I am not against them in any way, but I like to enforce the fact that as per the guidelines, they should only be used if there is no alternative in English. Very recently, this article passed FAC even though it uses German sources predominantly. I have bought this up with the reviewers and the actual mod who decides upon promoting or failing FA's, and he told me to bring this discussion here. Now long story short, I myself have been working on an article that uses a fair bit of foreign language sources. this alternative article uses a few Croatian sources here and there, but notice how I have included relevant translations of the source. I think all/most articles should do such, deepening on how often they use references in languages other than English. At FAC, the nominator refused to commit to such, pulling out insufficient cop-outs as to why his German sources shouldn't need to be translated. Basically, I asked the predominant question; "How can this be a Featured Article when it cannot even be verified in English". Rightfully so. The German sources are constant, and without translations cannot be verified. I don't see why an article should put the reader through further trouble by making them use online translators etc (which are usually difficult and inaccurate). Furthermore, its a Featured Article, which needs to "exemplify Wikipedia's best work".
I think the guidelines as to using foreign-language sources should be changed strictly. Unless in some extreme circumstances where exceptions can be made, most sources should be translated into English so readers can easily verify the information. For all we know, the majority of the German sources have nothing related to what they are supposed to backup in the article. Domiy ( talk) 03:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
<Shrug> I can read German. For me it's verifiable.
I can't read Croatian. But I can ask someone from the Croatian wikipedia to help me. :-) So once again, I have no problem there either. I'm not seeing it? -- Kim Bruning ( talk) 22:50, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
A different scenario: Lets say there is a German Feature Article. That means it has passed all the FA criteria, including having reliable sources, in German. Now someone comes along and translates the entire article as it stands into English. Surely the only reason such an article could be denied a high rating is if the translation is shown to be incorrect? Roger ( talk) 16:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Just out of curiosity, how do we view this as a source (and as a reference):
Note: No English at all is used. Not even a transliteration of the author's name. -- ROGER DAVIES talk 04:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Roger, do equally good, or better, English-language sources this subject (the German government) exist? If so, we use them. Otherwise, this is fine. Non-English sources are permitted. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 18:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Are research papers posted on the arXiv archive considered self-published? Thank you. -- Phenylalanine ( talk) 00:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks to all! I am working on this article, where I cite this arXiv paper (mentioned here and here), and this arXiv paper (mentioned here), which concludes that the previous paper is bunk. Both papers are cited here and here. Am I allowed to cite the first arXiv paper? (the author subsequently updated his paper with a reply to the critics in the Appendix)? Cheers, Phenylalanine ( talk) 23:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
"What happened to Bailey is important, because the harassment was so extraordinarily bad and because it could happen to any researcher in the field," said Alice Dreger, an ethics scholar and patients' rights advocate at Northwestern who, after conducting a lengthy investigation of Dr. Bailey's actions, has concluded that he is essentially blameless.
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
"even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer." So says the policy, which describes "blogs" as examples of "self-published sources".
Yet an LA Times editor reportedly wrote to "bloggers" "asking you all not to blog about [John Edwards and his alleged affair] until further notified." This guy is their supervisor, such that presumably they could be fired if they didn't obey.
There are plenty of non-blog sources that don't have this "degree of scrutiny" exhibited over what they say. It accordingly seems to me that this "never" prohibition on citing blogs in a BLP should be reconsidered. I should think that it's the messenger, not the medium, that is reliable or unreliable. Bdell555 ( talk) 14:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I reverted this significant rewrite of SELFPUB, as I don't see a discussion here about it. What's the issue and intent? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 23:00, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
ImperfectlyInformed either split off self-published experts from self-published sources, or self-published sources from self-published experts, depending upon how you wish to frame it. Acceptable self-published sources are those that originate from experts, so the two sections cover the exact same issue. What is the point of doing this split? I don’t see anyone in support of doing this except for ImperfectlyInformed. Are there any others? Having two sections within the same policy that cover the same issue, is an open invitation to edit warring. Each side can simply quote the section that is more favorable to their side or pov. The only way around this is to have the wording of both sections so close as to be duplicates of one another. The idea is to make policy more use friendly, and that generally means simpler. Having two competing sections is not simpler; having two duplicate sections is not simpler. Having one section that gets to the point quickly and clearly is the most user friendly approach. Brimba ( talk) 10:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Let's say someone has written an article claiming that anarcho-communism is not a form of anarchism. Specifically, an anarchist Benjamin Tucker wrote "Yes, genuine Anarchism is consistent Manchesterism, and Communistic or pseudo-Anarchism is inconsistent Manchesterism." That would be a questionable source, correct? Would it be a questionable source because he's an anarchist and anarchists are extremists? Or is it because it is an opinion piece? Why exactly would it be a questionable source? Is it a questionable source? If so, then does that mean this could not be said in the anarcho-communism article "Benjamin Tucker claimed that anarcho-communism is not a geniune form of anarchism"? The policy appears not even to allow that because it says questionable sources cannot be used as sources about themselves if it is "contentious" and "involves claims about third parties," correct? Richard Blatant ( talk) 16:28, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Let me see if I can word this better. If Benajimin Tucker writes an essay that says "Anarcho-communism is not a form of anarchism," then it could not even be mentioned that Benjamin Tucker said this because what he has said is "contentious." Is that correct? Richard Blatant ( talk) 15:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I changed "Self-published and questionable sources may only be used as sources about themselves, and then only if...it is not contentious"
to "Self-published and questionable sources may only be used as sources about themselves, and then only if...it is not contentions that the information about themselves is true".
Some changed it back. What was wrong with it? What is meant by "it is not contentious?" Is it saying we can't note an opinion that a questionable source has if the opinion is contentious or is it saying we can't note information about the source if the truthhood of the information about the source itself/himself is contentious? Which one is it, and why does it have to be cryptic? Richard Blatant ( talk) 19:40, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
The next problem is this statement "it does not involve claims about third parties." If a politician someone writes an editorial calling another politician a "liar," for example, I don't think the policy intends to forbid it being mentioned that that is his position, but that's what it does if you read it literally. I think it's trying to forbid it from being used as a source for us, the editors, to state in an article that that politician is a liar. So I propose it be reworded as well, to something like, "the material is not used for the article's editorial to make claims about third parties." Richard Blatant ( talk) 22:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Next is this: "the material used is relevant to the notability of the subject being discussed." What does this even mean? Can someone explain what is meant by this, so we can reword it to say what is meant in a way that is readily understandable? Richard Blatant ( talk) 01:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
"the material used is something which the source is notable for having knowledge of or commenting upon." That’s a good ballpark, probably better than the current wording. Brimba ( talk) 02:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, the last line i see a problem with "the material cited does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject." What is "the subject?" Is it talking about the subject of the article? Richard Blatant ( talk) 02:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I suspect that this: “the material is not used to make contentious claims about the source;” should likely be trimmed to “the material is not used to make contentious claims”. At the very least that would avoid coatracking; i.e. so and so believes XYZ to be true. You could introduce contentious material on the grounds that’s its simply what the subject believes to be true; not that it is verifiably true. The “not used to make claims about third parties;” covers a lot of ground, but not everything. What’s left out can still be introduced through a statement of beliefs or some other mechanism. Brimba ( talk) 03:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I just noticed something that the policy doesn't seem to allow. Let's say if an ex-president writes an op-ed in a newspaper, and happens to say his favorite ice cream is chocolate. It's not relevant to the subject in which he is notable, so therefore it can't be noted in his own article what his favorite ice cream flavor is. That seems a bit strange. Any comments on this? Richard Blatant ( talk) 03:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
In reply to Shirahadasha, I think the point here is that these only relate to articles in which the subject of the article is used as a source; for example an article about a particular NGO in which material from that NGO is cited within that article. So the context is quite limited. What we are saying is that if you’re notable as a chest player, the finite details of your political views are not relevant to your article. Brimba ( talk) 04:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Reverted to Brimba's August 10 version; the changes made in the last few days introduced redundant text to every line, and introduced a lot of weasly-ness to long-standing and important policy. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 13:43, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
"the material used is relevant to a subject in which the source has notability;" What?!! Can this be made clear. --neon white talk 21:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, in the last few days,
Fasach Nua (
talk ·
contribs) has been removing information from articles about national football teams (
example), citing
WP:PROVEIT as reason. Naturally people reverted it and he reverted them and so on, we all know how it works.
I think he interprets
WP:PROVEIT the way that every article needs to have the sources directly in the article, even if it's just a list pointing to other articles.
Others, like myself, think it is enough for
WP:PROVEIT that the articles that are linked to provide the sources in question. But as I completely accept that he might be right, I wanted to get some input here, how to deal with this situation. I stopped reverting him but I doubt others will and I'd like to see the situation cleared up before people start really edit warring.
So please, tell me which interpretation of
WP:PROVEIT you think to be correct or if removing information like in aforementioned example can be done citing it. Please forgive me, if I posted this at the wrong place.
So
Why
review me! 08:14, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Changing the WP:SELFPUB tag may seem to create immediate logical consistency, however it has disrupted all the previous links to the specific policy, now known as WP:SELFQUEST. I suggest restoring the previous WP:SELFPUB and also implementing the WP:SELFQUEST. Point taken but the redirect isn't helpful. Zulu Papa 5 ( talk) 18:11, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
This page currently has 14 listed shortcuts: WP:V, WP:VERIFY, WP:SOURCE, WP:BURDEN, WP:PROVEIT, WP:SOURCES, WP:QS, WP:SPS, WP:SELFQUEST, WP:SELFPUB, WP:RSUE, WP:VUE, WP:NONENG, WP:REDFLAG. Its easy to reach an agreement that 14 is too many, and we could maybe all agree in principle that 7 is a good number to shoot for; we could even cite The Magical Number Seven, Plus or Minus Two as a semi-logical reason for doing so. The problems arise when you attempt to actually eliminate a particular shortcut. There is always someone who will object. In May this page had 25 shortcuts listed; by the end of June that had been pared down to 10, and now we are back up to 14.
IMO, if the shortcut has been fewer then 500 times its not in common usage; that would be 6 of the 14. Further any shortcut that violates the WP:SHORT section on readability, should be a potential candidate for delisting. If you take those two qualifiers together you come up with at a minimum 4 shortcuts that could be removed. Of course that’s my system, and everyone has their own way of doing things.
“Self-published and questionable sources about themselves” is NOT a subsection of “Self-published sources” any more or less than it’s a subsection of “Questionable sources”, all three are subsections of “Sources”. Having said that, I would not object to delisting all shortcuts associated with “Questionable sources”, and all shortcuts associated with “Self-published and questionable sources about themselves” and leave only one shortcut listed for “Self-published sources”. I think this would function as well as the current system, and have the advantage of editors only being expected to recognize one shortcut, not four. Do I think that will happen, not likely, but I would support it. Brimba ( talk) 16:20, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the tip too look at Wikipedia:SHORT#Changing_shortcuts. This discussion seem to be going off topic from the original WP:SELFPUB tag change. The policy indicates it would be a disruption to change. Zulu Papa 5 ( talk) 18:00, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I have observed an exchange between two users (and myself) , User talk:Madman2001 and User talk:Hrafn. Apparently Hrafn deletes the main body of articles because they have been tagged as containing unsourced statements for two-three months. When the content is restored Hrafn cites WP:PROVEIT. What worries me that he does not adress any of the facts tagged with missing sources in the article and indeed it is uncertain whether s/he reads the articles or know anything about the topic - since s/he doesn't contribute any evaluation of the claims verifiability but seems to automatically delete paragraphs with an unsourced tag. As far as my understanding of policy goes this is a fairly extreme interpretation of the rules, and an interpretation that I believe will lead to the demise of wikipedia if it is carried to its extreme. In the past, the sourcing question was much less strict and many articles that were not obviously erroneous could be allowed to stand without sources, untill such a time that specific facts in them were challenged. In my early days on wikipedia I wrote many articles only citing sources for claims that I knew were likely to be challenged. My question then is whether it is a community decision to now strictly delete any unsourced claims in wikipedia? Or whether such an interpretation would be too extreme? ·Maunus·ƛ· 15:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
<unindent>This "fixing the article" has involved elimination of a large amount of cruft that was explicitly attributed to the letter, but which proved (once a copy of the letter was found) not to be mentioned in it. I think this proves the danger of allowing unverifiable information to remain, unchallenged, in an article. Hrafn Talk Stalk 17:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
A very notable author (has a Wikipedia article) publishes a blog. On the author's blog, the author reviews a book. The book isn't very well-known, and while there is enough on it for a Wikipedia article, it's not a great article, and could use some more information. Is it appropriate to say in the book's article that "Author X reviewed Book in her blog, and called it 'fascinating reading' [1]", giving the blog as a reference? Is this a violation of WP:SELFPUB, or is a self published source okay when giving the views of the (notable) self-publisher? Thanks. Neıl ☄ 12:15, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
User:Cazort made an edit that, I think, made a legitimate albeit minor point. A tiny number of sources that can reasonably be termed self-published are actually well-regarded in their field. This is an unusual-enough case that I felt that a full paragraph was unwarranted, and reduced it to a sentence that I hope meets with approbation. If reliable sources cite a source as authoritative, then Wikipedia shouldn't argue with that determination.
The few instances I can think of involve researchers of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, from wealthy families, whose works of genuine scholarship were published by respectable institutions that had been heavily endowed by their families. It would be reasonable to ask whether such works should be treated as self-published. It would also be reasonable to cite them as reliable sources, subject to the usual concerns about century-old works. Robert A.West ( Talk) 04:54, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
The wording
is being used to argue, as here, that newspapers are equally as reliable as academic books. I do not believe that this is the intent, and have inserted a stop-gap in this sentence to the effect that newspapers are most reliable where there aren't journals and books. The following sentence:
made clear, even without this edit, that the more checking is done on the source, the more reliable it is, but editors tend to quote sentences in isolation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:01, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I have made this into
This is in no sense intended as a change in policy, but a clarification of what has always been policy. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:11, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Your edits would directly contradict NPOV. “All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.” I would completely disagree with the statement “clarification of what has always been policy.” That is not policy. Preference has been given to the academic view within scientific, historical, social sciences, etc. We do not however rule out the use of other reliable sources once a peer-reviewed source exists; nor do once reliable sources become unreliable in the light of an academic source or peer-reviewed source. We use the best sources, and if they differ, we give both sides, we don’t automatically default to either side. Brimba ( talk) 04:15, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Brimba, just because one source is "more reliable" doesn't mean we use it, then exclude all "less reliable" sources. Creating a set hierarchy isn't a good idea. Magazines and newspapers with new issues published daily or weekly may be much more up to date than a textbook where new editions may only be released annually. Mr. Z-man 04:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Brimba, please explain this edit summary; it's not new wording. It's been here for ages, and the tweak PMA made to the wording was minor and didn't change the meaning. Can you explain what you're talking about with "new wording"? This is long-standing consensus. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 05:29, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
I also disagree with an express, universally-applicable hierarchy of reliability written into policy. We shouldn't attempt to write a one-size-fits-all judgment into policy in situations where common sense and good judgment will frequently be needed and where the judgment will often be out of place. I believe that there is a real danger, particularly on subjects which essentially involve opinions, values, etc., that the result will be to privelege university professors' opinions over other people's opinions. Best, -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 16:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Of course I read it. I don’t see it a being helpful as it reinforces the tone of the proceeding edits. At best its window dressing, at worst it reinforce the one size fits all mentality of academic is good, mainstream media is questionable until proven otherwise (by an academic source).
Wikipedia has a very bold vision statement:
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment.
That’s where we should be headed. Knowledge is knowledge, where the knowledge comes from is irrelevant. Anointing one source of knowledge as being superior to another source of knowledge is stupid on multiple levels. It also supposes that the anointed source of knowledge (be it academic, religious, mainstream, whatever) is benevolent enough to share the stage with other sources once it is anointed and others are categorized to a lesser statues. Once we have an anointed source, the supporters of that source are unlikely to be generous enough to allow a lot of competition. Hand them the keys to the city and being human beings, they are far more likely to seek purity, and then to define purity in ever narrower terms. Purity is the death knoll of Wikipedia. Wikipedia can survive a lot of things, but it can not survive a self-defeating behavior of that scale. It can not survive human pride. It can not survive a transition from allowing the free flow of information and knowledge to giving a preference to one source of information and knowledge over another. What serves Wikipedia well is having reliable sources, having an imposed hierarchy is counter productive, because whoever is on the top will place greater importance upon protecting their special status then they will place upon the importance of improving Wikipedia. Improving Wikipedia will simply equate with the elimination of impure or questionable alternatives, meaning anything that does not originate from the anointed source. You can not have an anointed source and have Wikipedia survive long term. The edits made here, regardless of the intent, are a clear step towards anointing academic sources. We need reliable sources; if a source is reliable Wikipedia needs it and is ill served by propping up one reliable source over another. Brimba ( talk) 02:46, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
A Festschrift ("a book honouring a respected academic and presented during his or her lifetime") is almost certainly scholarly and thus a WP:RS. But if it is unpublished, it is likely to be almost completely inaccessible, with only a few copies produced. This inaccessibility makes verifiability almost impossible. What level of accessibility is necessary for a source to be verifiable? This question would be fairly rare for secondary sources, but quite common for primary sources (which quite frequently are unpublished and exist only as a single copy in a single archive). Hrafn Talk Stalk 15:58, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Just a comment, without talking about the article that was brought up as an example: In Germany, Festschriften are used to honour people, true. Those published in the field of legal study though, as I have experienced myself, are not biased towards the person receiving it but he or she rather serves as a muse for the writers, i.e. they will write about a topic that he/she has worked on for many years and for which he/she is known for. The text itself will only represent the writer's viewpoint though and not the one of the person honoured. It's still a scientific legal essay as it would have been if it was published in a magazine or book. As for being unpublished, I think if it's avaibable in specific libraries it can be treated as a reliable source. Like a dissertation for example, which are not published in most cases but are readily available in university libraries (at least in my university they are). So Why 07:50, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I've seen material cited to peer review journal articles deleted in it's entiriety because of POV disputes. Shouldn't policy provide that once the citation is given, the burden is on those objecting to the material to demonstrate that it is wrong or inaccurate? (The current paragraph suggesting more explanation and evidence is great, but many just ignore it and delete.)
Moreover, if there is an inaccuracy or dispute about what a source really says about a topic, policy, or at least guidelines, should suggest that to avoid edit warring the solution is not to delete the cited material but to correct or clarify any inaccuracies by expanding the discussed source. This would help to prevent "censorship by dispute" approach used by some editors who appear to be on guard against sources which disagree with their POV.
I'd suggest something along the lines of the following (first paragraph is as is, to show flow) with my suggeted paragraph italicized:
Okay, it may be a bit too long, but this is just a draft to start the discussion. SaraNoon ( talk) 21:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
As I explained here we need a rule that allows for unsourced arguments/derivations. I suggested this formulation:
Count Iblis ( talk) 13:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Any simple mathematical calculation that reasonably educated readers can be expected to quickly and easily reproduce. For example, if given the population and the size of a specific area, then the population density of that area may be included. More complex calculations (for instance, those involving statistics, advanced algebra, or complex calculus) should not be included, because they require skills that common educated readers do not possess, or involve a large number of steps that may not be obvious, making it difficult to detect errors.
Is there any sort of consensus as to whether college newspapers are reliable thirdy party sources? I'm specifically looking at online papers hosted by "College Publisher network". Beside the banner at the top labeling as belonging to said network they seem to be more or less self-published and several of these have been used as sources to backup opinions on music related articles.
http://cpsite.collegepublisher.com/thecpnetwork/index.cfm
S. Luke 20:57, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi, maybe this is a weakness on my command of english, but I'm a bit in doubt about how should is to be understood in the contect of a policy. I understand that wikipedia policies are mandatory, however my understanding is that the word should does not indicate that something is mandatory but recommended (eg: a guideline); and that must is to indicate that a request needs to be fulfilled (eg: a policy). Can any experienced editor or administrator please clarify?
Thanks & regards,
DPdH (
talk) 04:53, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
I just realized another vague aspect of WP:SELFQUEST. When it refers to "Self-published and questionable sources", does that mean "questionable sources which are self-published", or does it mean "self-published or otherwise questionable sources", which would be more encompassing? Either way it could be stated more clearly. PSWG1920 ( talk) 08:35, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
That said, re-reading this pointed out what I believe is a genuine problem. The section entitled "Self-published sources" reads,
That sentence is directly contradicted by the sentence under discussion, probably because the second section was once upon a time the only exception to using self-published material. I assume that what we actually now mean is:
Comments, before I make the edit? Robert A.West ( Talk) 15:10, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
There was some previous discussion in the abstract on this edit [2], which made its appearance last week or before in Wikipedia Review. I think it would be useful to hash out here whether this undeniably self published comment is permissible even though it does not pertain to the blogger providing information about herself (other than her opinion of Wikipedia Review).
Essentially, some are arguing that it is acceptable for self published opinions to be included because the wording of WP:V can be interpreted to permit it. Is there such a loophole and, if so, should be policy be changed to close it?-- Janeyryan ( talk) 00:09, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Unindenting to comment here. I completely agree: there is no reason not to use a self-published source as a reference for the opinions of its author. The important thing is whether those opinions are notable, and whether or not they could be considered undue weight. Neither is a verifiability issue. With regards to the specific situation, I can't see any reason to consider that Ms Cramer's opinion on the site in question is in fact notable. Particularly, it certainly isn't notable enough to be included in the lead paragraph, given that it is less notable than many of the other comments quoted lower down in the article from notable news sources like The Guardian and The Independent. JulesH ( talk) 13:31, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, folks can be prejudice when it comes to self-published sources, both in the actual source opinions and in excluding them. The reasoning to exclude always has to do with the editorial controls that are established by the source to prevent error. Good luck in working on this, it won't be easy to move forward. In my case, I have folks wanting to exclude "self published" material in a biography about the self-publisher. The folks aim to exclude all the self-published material when wiki policy says it can be included on a case-by-case basis when considering a list of criteria WP:SELFPUB. So even if you achieve a case-by-case exception criteria for "opinion". Folks will still want to point blank exclude. But really, opinion belongs in editorial pages and appropriate biography references, not in NPOV articles. Zulu Papa 5 ( talk) 21:34, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure this was brought up above. We have one newspaper blog where neither the identity of the author nor his literary merit is in question. But I still have two problems with the use of his blog: 1) Why didn't the paper publish it under its own byline? Hardcopy is limited by newsprint available for that issue. Web space has some limitations but can presumably squeeze in a legitimate article. Why hasn't the paper done so? It seems to me that this represents a
WP:OR problem here. The paper did not consider it "news" but we do? Isn't that one of the ideas about finding it in a legitimate publication to start with? (I think this was approached above with the concept of "peer review") 2) Publications online or off have a copy editor that is supposed to verify facts. This is missing in a blog. While the quality of writing may not be an issue but not everyone remembers things perfectly. Or hears them perfectly or having done both, records them perfectly, even "credible" authors! The function of a copy editor is missing in a blog. There is no "second opinion." Oversight is missing. And don't think that because it is in a blog for a few days that the publication feels any more responsible for it. Quite the opposite, in fact they may be thinking "Thank God we aren't responsible for that"!
Student7 (
talk) 20:44, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
I have been working on the WP:Scientific standards article which is a potential policy. I'm here because I expressed frustration over the limits of this policy and another editor suggest I address them here. My question to those who work on this page is: How difficult would it be to get a section on scientific sourcing into WP:V? Right now major issues with sourcing science include the need for editors to understand: A) The only acceptable primary source for primary scientific evidence in modern science is a peer-reviewed journal. B) Primary peer-reviewed journals are not good sources for evidence of consensus in science. C) Patents are not a valid sources of scientific evidence. Actually (C) is probably the most important because at no point does WP policy address patents; and patents come up over and over in science articles. Just wondering if these points could be engineered into this policy a bit more explicitly or do folks here support the idea of Wikipedia:Scientific_standards. Just looking for input.-- OMCV ( talk) 02:09, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
What do you all think about adding a section on specificness versus vagueness? To give you an idea of what I have in mind, I came across the following sentence in the introduction to the article on the Victorian Certificate of Education:
The VCE is considered to be one of the more rigorous secondary education programs in the world ....
No reference was cited. My immediate question was: considered by whom? By a majority of university admissions officers worldwide? By a couple dozen teachers in Melbourne? By the person who wrote the sentence?
In its vague state, the sentence goes beyond unverifiable—it's useless in the context of an encyclopedia article. If a reference exists that can confirm an established opinion as described by that sentence, then the reference will indicate who holds that opinion ("by 85% of a worldwide sampling of university admissions officers"), and in that case it is incumbent upon the editor to provide that information, along with the citation ("A poll shows that a majority ...."). Therefore, even with a citation, there is no reason to assert the existence of an opinion without indicating whose opinion it is. Without the citation, the sentence shouldn't be there at all.
Truly, when I see a sentence like this in an article, I quickly suspect that what's really going on is that the writer holds that opinion himself or just thinks it's a prevalent opinion, and wanted to mention it without making it look like a WP:NPOV violation, rationalizing that the sentence is technically true, while ignoring the fact that it fails tests for notability and verifiability.
This is a single example. I'm sure the idea could be expanded on, and make a valuable addition to this policy. Comments? — Largo Plazo ( talk) 16:32, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Note discussion on Wikipedia_talk:Citing_sources which proposes moving detail currently under Wikipedia:Citing sources#When to cite sources to this project page. You're encouraged to discuss it there (under the subject heading " Let's get the relationship with WP:V right") if you want to put forward an argument one way or other. -- SallyScot ( talk) 11:34, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry to bother you with this, but we have a professional journalist at WT:MEDRS that's apparently mad because the guideline for medicine-related articles prefers getting scientific facts straight from good scientific sources, instead of assuming that he and his colleagues in the mass media industry never make a mistake and never introduce accidental biases and never fail to communicate important information. (I'm sure I mangle his position substantially, but you can go read his endless comments for yourself, e.g., here, here, here, here, here, here.)
For several days now, he has been repeatedly demanding -- politely but tendentiously -- that the WP:MEDRS guideline provide citations to independent, third-party reliable sources to prove that the advice of Wikipedia editors on this point is verifiable. His excuse for this demand is that WP:V's nutshell says that "Material challenged or likely to be challenged, and all quotations, must be attributed to a reliable, published source" instead of saying "Material in the article namespace that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and all quotations, must be attributed to a reliable, published source." It is apparently not good enough for the policy to specify in the lead (as it does) that the policy applies to articles, because he prefers to apply an expansive definition of the term article.
Can we update this policy to say "Attention: This policy does not apply to the Wikipedia: namespace, such as Wikipedia's internal policies and guidelines"? Is there a better way to address this? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 19:43, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
(undent) OK, I think the problem is this. apparently there is an ongoing discussion about whether newspaper articles can represent valid source on medical issues. one editor claimed that "most news articles fail to discuss important issues such as evidence quality, costs, and risks versus benefits", the journalist ( Nbauman)) asked for a source for the claim, the source was given, and then Nbauman asked that the source be cited in the RSMRA guideline itself to support the claim. this devolved into a debate about whether the wp:RS policy applied to policies and guidelines themselves (if and when those guidelines have to refer to facts). about which I have two things to say:
I'm going to leave a note over there reminding everyone that newspapers ought to be considered (barring evidence to the contrary) reliable secondary sources suitable for use in wikipedia. don't know if that will help, but... -- Ludwigs2 00:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
The text currently reads
In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; usually followed by university-level textbooks; then by magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; then by mainstream newspapers. Special cases may arise; and editors should be careful not to exclude a point of view merely because it lacks academic credentials. As a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work, the more reliable it is.
I would argue that there is the omission of consensus documents like committee reports from the National Academies of Science, United National security council scientific bodies (think IAEA reports), and official standards published by standards bodies (i.e. IEEE's standard on firewire or CAT-5 cabling is the authoritative document on the topic). Pdbailey ( talk) 22:26, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
The passage, twice amended and twice reverted today, states two things, and does so reasonably clearly IMO. Extra steps are required when citing a non-english source on a potentially-contentious point. As I read it, these steps are not required if the assertion is routine. Thus, a plot summary of a German short story might be sourced to the original text without reproduction, but an assertion that this same short story was influential in some way probably should have the relevant text cited. This is, I believe, a deliberate choice, and a reasonable one. It should not, IMO, be changed without consensus. Robert A.West ( Talk) 22:00, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
<undent> In my opinion there's some validity in loosening the requirement to provide the foreign language text being used as a source. The relevant section is "they need to quote the relevant portion of the original text in a footnote or in the article, so readers can check that it agrees with the article content. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors." and my suggestion would be "they should, as far as possible, provide a link to the original text online, or quote relevant portions of the original text in a footnote or in the article, so readers can check that it agrees with the article content. Translations published by reliable sources are regarded as a source in English, and are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors." Hope that clarifies the ways in which I think it should be loosened to meet the concerns expressed above. Note that quoting sections would allow ellipses to avoid copyright issues with providing the whole text. . dave souza, talk 21:35, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
No-one's yet given anything like a concrete example. Above I asked about S. A. Andrée's Arctic balloon expedition of 1897 - it's a featured article which relies for the most part on Swedish sources. Nowhere does it quote the Swedish in a footnote. Do you fear that the sources contained "words and idioms that do not have a direct English equivalent"? Do you think maybe poor confused Bishonen got it all wrong? Do you feel it would be reasonable to remove material which is only backed up by Swedish sources? Haukur ( talk) 17:22, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
I am talking myself into a stance of "supply foreign language texts cited on demand". In an ideal world, I would support that as policy; but we can't. Editors abandon articles and leave Wikipedia altogether. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:32, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
I feel all these points seriously need to be stressed uner REDFLAG, as many people win the argument of having "verified sources of high quality" for an exceptional claim, when they might have an Oxford-produced polemic, and something similar, and a big hole where all the other righfully expected refs would be. The university presses actually roll throughout the night printing texts - the name itself does not trump them over less prestigious outlets (ie 1 Oxford Press does not = 10 local newspapers!). The 'verification is all that matters' argument can get a lot of mileage, and too few people know about WP:REDFLAG, which is an excellent and extrememly important part of Wikipedia. For exceptional claims, people surely need to look at the context and background of the available source(s) too. Debate could be encouraged at that point. -- Matt Lewis ( talk) 13:57, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
One of the things that has bothered me in Wikipedia is the use of quotes from sources that engage in Ad hominem attacks bordering on violations of Wikipedia:Libel such as 'no reputable, honest, or serious scholar, scientist, doctor, etc supports position x'. I dislike the use of such quotes because they basically say that any professional that holds position x is not reputable, honest, or serious regardless of their credentials because they hold position x (ie it is totally circular logic) and because such claims are essentially defamatory in nature regarding any person that holds position x and have no place in an encyclopedia. I do make a distinction between these types of sources and ones that say 'most scholars, scientists, doctors, etc regard position x as having no validity' because the second shows there is some debate on the issue and more in keeping with NPOV. I think it would be a good idea to have Verifiability expressly state that quotes that engage in Ad hominem arguments cannot be used regardless of who made them or in what publication they appeared as they clearly break the NPOV provisions.-- BruceGrubb ( talk) 06:12, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Bailey is a sexologist that has many enemies in the transgender community. Every single word in the articles related to him has been fought over five or six times, including whether or not Alice Dreger really used the exact word "harrassment" in describing the concerted efforts of some transwomen to have him fired/taken to court for practicing medicine without a license/putting school pictures of his kids on the web with inappropriate sexual remarks/etc. In these instances, quoting a single word is better than leaving the reader with the impression that the choice of terms was an editorial judgment. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 04:31, 21 September 2008 (UTC)According to Dreger, the allegations of misconduct could accurately be described as "harassment", [2] and an "anti-Bailey campaign". [3]
I see one of the last things in the talk archives was someone pointing to WEASEL. It's inevitable that, when people are deciding whether to keep material or not, they'll often choose the reason that requires the least thought, like the presence of a word mentioned at
WP:WEASEL or
WP:Words to avoid or
WP:PEACOCK. But inevitability isn't a reason to encourage it. If material fails the
WP:BURDEN test here at WP:V, that should be the preferred reason to talk about it, tag it, and/or remove it. A quick dismissal based on the presence of "bad" words is the least persuasive kind of argument, and edit summaries that just say "per WEASEL" raise an
WP:AGF issue, I think.
In fact, I think the current wording, "... but editors may object if you remove material without giving them sufficient time to provide references", is actually pushing people in the direction of the "quick fix" per WEASEL or WORDS, and this is a bad thing (which kills me, since I supported a version of the current wording vigorously in April). Without "breaking the wiki", is there some phrase we could insert that would allow people to remove material quickly without painting a picture of a looming objection, if they believe the material can never be sourced, due to being non-supportable and/or non-falsifiable? I know that WEASEL and WORDS attempt to do this, but I'd prefer to focus people on core content policy whenever something is being done for what is essentially a core content policy reason. - Dan
Dank55 (
send/receive) 20:49, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Usually people jump all over recommendations like that, so I'm going to assume that was difficult to follow and try to break it down:
In regards to this revert, if you self-published a book about someone else, who would be the second party in that case? I thought I finally understood the meaning of "third-party source", but maybe I don't. PSWG1920 ( talk) 20:46, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
This topic certainly has come up on WP:RS a lot over the years, and I assume here. Proposals usually are shot down with the excuse that “it all depends - it has to be done on a case by case basis.” Having done a pretty good study of Reliable Sources Noticeboard Discussions, I can see a lot of the repeated questions and answers involve advocacy group and publications sources that are reliable in some respects and less so in others. These range from Southern Poverty Law Center to LewRockwell.com to Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting to FrontPage Magazine. (See page for whole list.)
I think to clarify this for our many many confused and frustrated editors, we need to include between “Reliable sources” and “Self-published sources” something like the Draft below, either in this article or in WP:RS - or even both:
Carol Moore 22:42, 24 September 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc
Wikipedia as an institution appears to be a draw for people who care more about rules than substance. There's a certain personality type that operates this way, but people who go about their lives doing this sort of thing tend to exclude actual thought & meaning.
But wikipedia isn't about that, it's an encyclopedia, right? But then again it tends to discriminate against blogs & new media & online forum content which may be simultaneously cataloged in blog indexes.
If you have the personality type that matches up with what I've described all this will be completely over your head and meaningless most likely. To you the process is more important than the content of a given submission. You as a rules & process person actually have no perception about the social weight of a given submission. And if the process hurts content, that doesn't matter to you: you're a process person and nothing else. You're a robot or an automaton.
This discussion relates to an attempted addition to meetin.org. [4] Z2401 ( talk) 05:56, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
Content over process has the sound of a good idea. But I think that's a simplistic way at looking at the current actuality of Wikipedia dynamics. In a small group where everyone knows each other, process is very informal and doesn't get in the way of productive work. However, in a project as massive as Wikipedia, process is the only way we can collaborate meaningfully and productively to produce the quality content that is the purpose of this project. With the size of Wikipedia, it's impossible to even recognize all the editors, never mind know them, or know of them. A small town doesn't need traffic lights, but a large city would have never ending gridlock without them. Just look at some of the contentious article with multiple edit wars, drive by vandalism, and groups of editors that can't seem to agree on anything. That would be the norm throughout much more of Wikipedia without policy and guidelines on what is, and what isn't, permissible here, and processes that encourage collaboration and consensus building over non constructive activity. — Becksguy ( talk) 08:59, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I've added a note that other sites mirroring WP content are not any more qualified as reliable sources than the original WP page they copy ( [7]). Otherwise people who would like to circumvent the restriction against citing WP articles just cite one of the mirror sites, and we get circular references. Example: [8] Jayen 466 14:24, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I recently found an article, Meganekko that was unreferenced and judging by the history and talk page unlikely to attract any references ever. So because I thought this page says that such material needs to be deleted, I listed it for deletion. But the discussion closed with no consensus. Quite apart from nonsensical replies such as that the material in the article isn't challenged, even though I obviously did, one editor stated that this page does not say that unverifiable material should be deleted. So what do I do now? I'm reluctant to touch the matter again, but I also can't let it go like that because that would turn this policy page into a dead letter. Something has to be done, but what? Should I stub the article? But then there is already a problem: I have my doubts with even the correctness of the shortest possible description of the article's subject. Should I wait and relist? But how long will be long enough to establish that no sources will come? Maybe someone could add a tutorial on this page about what to do when confronted with an article that violates the policy. Shinobu ( talk) 10:50, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
It should point out that, when giving a plot summary or fictional character biography, this rule generally is reversed (it should have first-party sources). If my point here isn't clear enough, tell me. [[User:Tutthoth-Ankhre|Tutthoth-Ankhre~ The Pharaoh of the Universe]] ( talk) 00:48, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Added this line: "The source cited must directly support the information as it is presented in the article." I believe it's uncontroversial. lk ( talk) 07:12, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
The guideline right now clearly describes high quality reliable sources, and describes how to treat fringe and extremist material. However, this leaves out a whole swath of sources that don't easily fall into either category. How are we supposed to treat things like a new minor magazine, a small town newspaper, a congressional testimony, a white paper issued by a major organization, Krugman's blog on NYT, a magazine published by the Catholic Church? I would like the page to spell out clearly that some 'questionable sources' are not 'fringe' or 'extremist', ie. an article from a new magazine is not the same as an article from a newspaper published by the Communist Party of America; and also describe how such questionable but not fringe sources may be used. lk ( talk) 10:19, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
My point is that we have guidelines for how to treat solid reliable sources, and guidelines for how to treat obvious fringe sources. But we don't have guidelines for how to treat many sources, that lie somewhere in between.
I've seen adhoc solutions, but it would be nice if it were written out somewhere. lk ( talk) 16:56, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm being reverted on this edit where I add the word 'fringe' to the section on Questionable sources. I believe it's uncontroversial, but Vision thing (who apparently thinks some Fringe sources are reliable sources) insists that I get consensus first. So, I would like to ask, 'is it ok to describe Fringe sources as Questionable sources'? By 'Fringe', I mean as defined by WP:Fringe and WP:PSCI. lk ( talk) 15:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
The first paragraph says: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true."
This worries me greatly. I mean if Wikipedia is supposed to be the "sum of all human knowledge" then how can we only allow verifiability?
There must be some give-and-take involved here. I'm sure that this is an age old question, but please humour me. I've seen many maths additions be removed because of lack of verifiability, even though the things written are quite clearly true!
If I were to have enough money I could self-publish a book full of a whole range of falsehoods and then come onto Wikipedia and post the stuff because it's verifiable by the definition of these guidelines. (I had previously argued against self-published work but found myself against a more vocal minority.) For example: I could cite many verifiable sources that say that NASA never went to the moon, and (disgustingly) that the Nazi holocaust never happened.
If I'm talking a load of rubbish then please let me know nicely!
Δεκλαν Δαφισ (talk) 19:34, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
I've jut been reading my latest copy of Private Eye in which it suggests that the Daily Mirror used an (essentially vandalised) copy of a page on a Cypriot football team called Omonia Nicosia with a joke supporters group inserted into it. Private Eye's assertion is that our verifiability policy is essentially daft, given that it requires simply attribution in a third-party reliable source, such as a mainstream newspaper, which would allow this "joke" to be included as factual. I'm uncertain on this specific case, but I've seen similar point brought up before. Whilst I'm happy that in general we may catch these problems, do we have any procedures in place to prevent this, or specific guidance? This is an issue, since it impinges on our reputation and the quality of the encyclopeadia as a whole. Any thoughts? Fritzpoll ( talk) 10:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
It's not just tabloids like the Daily Mirror - a dubious "fact" from Wikipedia found its way into Ronnie Hazlehurst's obituries in several far more reputable newspapers, including The Times (see Talk:Ronnie_Hazlehurst#The_SClub_7_Hoax). The Times retracted it fairly quickly, but similar instances could easily have fallen through the net. Since otherwise good sources may well do this from time to time, I don't see a way to exclude the possibility of this sort of feedback loop completely, though it might well help to suggest that for unlikely facts, sources which pre-date the Wikipedia article are preferred. Iain99 Balderdash and piffle 14:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
The source cited must directly support the information as it is presented in the article (When there is dispute about whether the article text is fully supported by the given source, direct quotes from the source and any other details requested should be provided as a courtesy to substantiate the reference.).
The current wording could be misunderstood if a reliable sources cites another (reliable) source to support the information as it is presented in the article. This practice is very common in peer reviewed publications. We have a section in the citation guideline to cover this (see WP:CITE#SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT). I would suggest removing the word "directly" from the sentence.-- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 09:32, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Looking at the new text, I'd like to suggest a further change to prune and tighten up:
Any objections? -- ROGER DAVIES talk 09:37, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I've been writing aviation-related articles for about a decade now. During that time I've come to rely on Joe Baugher's extensive list of American Military Aircraft. This list consists mostly of articles created by scraping other sources, essentially identical to the process used to create articles for the Wikipedia. They tend to be much longer than suitable for a Wikipedia article, but the creation process is similar, and the results excellent.
On several occasions I have been able to check his references after the fact. I have yet to find a single error that isn't in the original source. The simple fact that he includes his references in the articles is a good indicator of their quality, IMHO.
So now with that out of the way, I would like to gather some opinions on whether or not this is a suitable reference source. It is claimed that it is not, because it is a self-published source. However, the criterion right above SPS, "Reliable sources", states "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.", a label that his works fit to a T.
Soooo, which is it? In my opinion, Reliable trumps SPS. Further, IMHO, that SPS's primary concern is weeding out low-quality sources like moon-hoax conspiracy sites, which are generally SPS, and not to weed out high-quality sources just because they are SPS.
Am I interpreting this correctly?
Maury Markowitz ( talk) 21:00, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Done! Maury Markowitz ( talk) 17:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
[Note: This section used to the part of the section above, '... fringe group a questionable source?']
Having heard one of the editors involved in these changes misquote WP:V and WP:RS essentially to assert that a certain political/economic class of widely quoted sources are basically all fringe wackos who aren't reliable at wikipedia, you'll have to pardon me if I grow a bit suspicious when the editor makes/supports changes that make pages with "opinons" be the first most questionable category!! The relevant changes are in the second sentence.
Because sites that rely "heavily on rumors and personal opinions" has been moved up first it casts suspicion on many sites (left, right and libertarian) that offer opinions promoting allegedly minority views, often from both lay people and experts, and infers that even if a renowned academic expert published there with footnotes, it's too "questionable" a source to use the article! I think it is best to go back to the original so the emphasis starts with extremist and promotional. Also "personal opinions" might be modified to "lay person personal opinions" just be 100% clear. Carol Moore 15:25, 10 October 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc
I read the complete section on foreign languages and discussion on it. The question I have is that if there is an English source on an issue that says, for example, value of X is 7, and there's a non-English source that says, no in fact X is 17, since a source in English is available that has the 'value of X', does non-English source become inadmissible? Or since the viewpoint is different, both are admissible as contradicting point of views?
I tend to believe latter, but I want to get some expert advice before going back on the article and pushing for the updates. Thanks. Omer ( talk) 08:57, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
I've recently been into heavy discussions at FAC's etc about the use of foreign sources. I am not against them in any way, but I like to enforce the fact that as per the guidelines, they should only be used if there is no alternative in English. Very recently, this article passed FAC even though it uses German sources predominantly. I have bought this up with the reviewers and the actual mod who decides upon promoting or failing FA's, and he told me to bring this discussion here. Now long story short, I myself have been working on an article that uses a fair bit of foreign language sources. this alternative article uses a few Croatian sources here and there, but notice how I have included relevant translations of the source. I think all/most articles should do such, deepening on how often they use references in languages other than English. At FAC, the nominator refused to commit to such, pulling out insufficient cop-outs as to why his German sources shouldn't need to be translated. Basically, I asked the predominant question; "How can this be a Featured Article when it cannot even be verified in English". Rightfully so. The German sources are constant, and without translations cannot be verified. I don't see why an article should put the reader through further trouble by making them use online translators etc (which are usually difficult and inaccurate). Furthermore, its a Featured Article, which needs to "exemplify Wikipedia's best work".
I think the guidelines as to using foreign-language sources should be changed strictly. Unless in some extreme circumstances where exceptions can be made, most sources should be translated into English so readers can easily verify the information. For all we know, the majority of the German sources have nothing related to what they are supposed to backup in the article. Domiy ( talk) 03:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
<Shrug> I can read German. For me it's verifiable.
I can't read Croatian. But I can ask someone from the Croatian wikipedia to help me. :-) So once again, I have no problem there either. I'm not seeing it? -- Kim Bruning ( talk) 22:50, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
A different scenario: Lets say there is a German Feature Article. That means it has passed all the FA criteria, including having reliable sources, in German. Now someone comes along and translates the entire article as it stands into English. Surely the only reason such an article could be denied a high rating is if the translation is shown to be incorrect? Roger ( talk) 16:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Just out of curiosity, how do we view this as a source (and as a reference):
Note: No English at all is used. Not even a transliteration of the author's name. -- ROGER DAVIES talk 04:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Roger, do equally good, or better, English-language sources this subject (the German government) exist? If so, we use them. Otherwise, this is fine. Non-English sources are permitted. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 18:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Are research papers posted on the arXiv archive considered self-published? Thank you. -- Phenylalanine ( talk) 00:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks to all! I am working on this article, where I cite this arXiv paper (mentioned here and here), and this arXiv paper (mentioned here), which concludes that the previous paper is bunk. Both papers are cited here and here. Am I allowed to cite the first arXiv paper? (the author subsequently updated his paper with a reply to the critics in the Appendix)? Cheers, Phenylalanine ( talk) 23:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
"What happened to Bailey is important, because the harassment was so extraordinarily bad and because it could happen to any researcher in the field," said Alice Dreger, an ethics scholar and patients' rights advocate at Northwestern who, after conducting a lengthy investigation of Dr. Bailey's actions, has concluded that he is essentially blameless.