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Please come participate in the discussion here. It involves image use policy issues far beyond the template itself. Thanks. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:56, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I don’t claim to be the best wordsmith, but I think I have all the elements included without making the wording unwieldy.
Thanks, Brimba ( talk) 04:33, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm still not too happy about:
Exceptional claims should be supported by the best sources, and preferably multiple reliable sources.
It can be misconstrued to read like: if you can't find "multiple reliable sources" (the preferred solution), then we'll settle for "the best sources" you can find (...they don't even have to be reliable...) - Maybe far-fetched, but if we can reduce ambiguity, why not. So, proposing this replacement:
If you want to include an exceptional claim in Wikipedia try to find the best sources that would support such claim. If enough of these sources are also reliable there should not be a problem to include the material based on such sources, as far as also keeping to other policies like those on biographies of living persons and not giving undue weight to remote opinions.
Or is that too wordy for a policy page? Anyway, for reference: I suggested this rewrite in part because I happened to be reading this thread yesterday: Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Frank_LaGrotta (exceptional claim removed for BLP and undue weight reasons, notwithstanding that the "best source" was also a "reliable source" - see also User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 122#BLP Question). -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 05:54, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Did you have problems to read more than a single sentence?If you want to include an exceptional claim in Wikipedia try to find the best sources that would support such claim. If enough of these sources are also reliable there should not be a problem to include the material based on such sources, as far as also keeping to other policies like those on biographies of living persons and not giving undue weight to remote opinions.
My argument is that the best source does not always equal a reliable source.
“Exceptional claims should be supported by the best sources” That is the standard for dealing with exceptional claims under the current wording. And yes I can read. It is preferable that we use multiple high quality reliable sources, but not mandatory. There in lies the problem.
If you are going to say “best sources”, then it is entirely possible, and very much probable that some people will insist on taking you at your word. Thus you get into situations such as this from the Talk:Operation Gladio:
My point:
Reply:
Concerning WP:UNDUE:
The reply:
Ganser is only one of many such “best sources” that I could have pulled up to make my point, although he is probably the best known within the WP community, and therefore the best example to use. The point of including this is to show that people don’t always take things as written or as intended. They can put there own spin on things, so when we write, especially at the policy level, we need to say things clearly or risk people gaming the system to meet their own ends.
Ganser is someone who makes multiple exceptional claims, specifically that most every terrorist attack in Western Europe over the last several decades has been the work the CIA, designed as false-flag operations to discredit left wing political parties, specifically Western European communists’ parties, or achieve some other end as the White House desires. His claims include that the CIA tried to assassinate Pope John Paul II to make the Russians look bad; That the CIA controlled the Red Brigade, and ordered the assignation of Aldo Moro to make the Italian communist party look bad; that the US government allowed the 9/11 attacks to occur for geostrategic purposes. So forth and so on. He’s been savaged in peer reviews, left his university post for reasons that where never explained, and had good things to say about Lyndon Larouche and and had good things said about him by Lyndon Larouche. After all of that, he is still the Best Source for much of what he claims as he is often the only source besides Larouche and the Italian Communist party. Still, there are a number of articles within Wikipedia that use him as a source, and he has quite a dedicated following.
Here you have a source making claims that trigger probably every single redflag we list, and yet, despite his less than stellar reputation, one could argue that he is the “best source”. Ganser is not the point, the point is that the current wording defeats the intent of the “Exceptional claims require exceptional sources” section. “Exceptional claims should be supported by the best sources” does not even live up to the section heading. Brimba ( talk) 06:23, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Exceptional claims should be supported by the best sources, and preferably multiple reliable sources.
“If you want to include an exceptional claim in Wikipedia try to find the best sources that would support such claim.”
This section of the policy now says:
I wonder if this statement is sufficiently nuanced. For a well-covered topic like George W. Bush or lung cancer, I seriously doubt if any fact or opinion worth noting would have appeared in a blog or self-published book, that has not also appeared in a mainstream source. For topics like these, I think it's safe to say that self-published sources are practically never acceptable.
But because Wikipedia is not paper, the encyclopedia now covers many below-the-radar subjects for which the best sources may indeed be self-published. I occasionally find editors aggressively removing citations from self-published sources, because they believed (per this policy) that such sources are considered categorically unreliable in almost all circumstances. The focus of the section should be on indicia of reliability, rather than blanket (or near-blanket) statements that put a patina of grave doubt on an entire category of sources.
The section has a footnote that is similarly flat-footed:
Newspapers' interactive columns aren't just called blogs; generally, they are blogs. This well founded exception ought to be integrated into the text, instead of being relegated to a footnote. (I do agree that "reader comments" are practically never reliable.) Marc Shepherd ( talk) 17:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
MikeBlas and I have been having a similar discussion. In our case it's a forum in question, but it's the same principle: can a source self-published, but self-published by someone with verifiable authority, be cited? -- Tom Edwards ( talk) 10:56, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Reference User:Kazvorpal#Truth, not Silence. WP:V as stated permits wholesale reversion of good-faith edits, by the process of an editor simply calling them unreliable (i.e., questionable) and refusing to discuss reliability, which is an unintentionally one-sided application of the policy. And since reliability is a spectrum ("the greater the degree of scrutiny involved"), there is not a clear line between reliability and questionability, which should also be emphasized. This would be remedied by insertions in the policy.
(I am also making the minor change of correcting "living people" to "living persons" twice, and linking WP:BLP on first reference.) Please indicate consensus on this proposal below. Thank you for your consideration. John J. Bulten 19:18, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Not needed now. Marskell 14:46, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia policies are reflections of consensus, and usually not reflections of the results of polling. I strongly recommend that instead of asking people simply support or oppose this proposal, you instead simply encourage an open discussion that does not have the appearance of a vote. On another note, your suggestion would be a lot easier to understand if you make a userfied version of WP:V, edit it how you see fit, and then point to the diff of your edit! - Chardish 19:29, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
The issue raised can be easily resolved by WP:CONSENSUS and if that is not achievable, the users involved in the dispute about the reliability of a source can engage in dispute resolution. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
We can talk about the merits when the agenda's fully on the table. This appears to be a bad faith attempt at wikilawyering to change WP:V in favour of including material posted by User:John J. Bulten at Moneybomb - material that there was consensus to delete because of unreliable sources. See also WP:COI/N#Moneybomb. Gordonofcartoon 16:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
“When an editor provides a source and indicates good faith in its reliability, the burden of evidence shifts to the editor who challenges the insertion.”
This would turn WP:V on its head, as few people add sources that they personal regard as unreliable. So ANY source that is added is de-facto reliable by the standards of the editor adding the material. Fallowing your logic, ALL material added to Wikipedia must be proven unreliable before it could be removed, unless the editor adding that material openly states that he himself/herself regards the source as unreliable. The burden must, and is, upon the person wishing to add or retain the material, and not to those removing the material.
“There was not consensus to delete.” I might point out that you have inverted consensus here, there is no such thing as consensus to remove questionable material, simply a lack of consensus to retain it. Anyone restoring questionable material on the claim that there is “a lack of consensus to remove” is being disingenuous. Brimba 01:29, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Proposed change
Material from self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources in articles about themselves, so long as:
|
Rationale
1. Missions statements are technically disallowed by the current policy, but they are obviously relevant and important. Here is an example from Wikipedia:
2. Self-published statements should not only be allowable, they are essential, especially for controversial topics. Here are two valid statements from Wikipedia that under the current policy are disallowed:
3. By insisting that the material be indicated to be a self-published statement, we avoid sentences such as "Kevin Trudeau's books offer cures for a myriad of illnesses."
—
DavidMack 21:50, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Missions statements are technically disallowed by the current policy. That is an incorrect assessment. Mission statements are indeed allowed and featured in many articles. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:19, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I oppose the change. It loosens what is already an exception to the general rule. If a self-published source is contentious, it should simply not be used (as under current policy). Allowing contentious self-published sources would seem to be almost asking for a new crop of edit wars. I also don't understand the need for a loosening of the restrictions on self-serving sources. I've never seen anyone assert that reasonable self-serving material (like a mission statement) is unduly self-serving. So, in essence, I believe changing one would be to the detriment of the wiki and that the other shows no need for change. Remember, SELFPUB is an exception to the normal rule. Some significant proof and a strong consensus is going to be needed for an expansion of an allowance that is contradictory to the general consensus. Vassyana ( talk) 13:00, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to add a minor clarification in the first paragraph: change "any reader" to "any reader conversant in the language of the source" If an article's sources are all in Russian, I obviously am not able to check that the article's material has been previously published in reliable sources, nor is any other reader who is not conversant in Russian. Thoughts/reactions? UnitedStatesian ( talk) 14:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Seems like you're trying to re-invent WP:V#Non-English sources.
No, not all sections (nor their summaries) of the WP:V policy are crammed in the first paragraph (I can assure you, it has been tried before).
If you're looking for an article built on non-English sources, here's an example: Wikifonia. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 10:06, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
"self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources."
On talk:Purgatory, some editors read this sentence to mean that these sources are usually not acceptable, but that we can make special exceptions as we see fit. Since the exceptions listed are not explicitly said to be the only and exclusive exceptions, these editors say that there are other exceptions to be determined at the editors' discretion. Is that right? Does this policy mean "no self-published sources unless most editors on the talk page agree that it's OK"? If you want to see the actual discussion, it's at Talk:Purgatory#Dr._Anthony_Dragani. Thanks. Leadwind ( talk) 14:48, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I do some work with small historical sites, mostly those listed on the NRHP. I am curious about how I should go about using information I glean from signage at the site. It seems to me that this is usually (but not always) a version of self-published information, so I limit my use of it to small factual matters. I use other sources to establish notability, etc. An example of my aproach can be seen at Barnsdall Main Street Well Site. Is this an acceptable approach? Should I upload images of the signs in question? Should the title of section 2.3 be changed to Self-published source (Online and on paper, wood, metal, stone, or any other substance) :)? Dsmdgold ( talk) 17:43, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
How do I quote a lecture? For example, if I'm studying at medical school, and I'm adding an article about a cell using information from a lecture, is that an acceptable source? I'd like to imagine it is (if medical professors are telling us incorrect stuff about medicine, you guys are in for a load of hurt in 10 years when we all start hitting practice), but how do I quote it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lenrodman ( talk • contribs) 07:58, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
{{ cite conference}} certainly exists for a reason. Academic conferences can be important sources of information. Conference proceedings are published in standard practice. Everyday university class lectures are certainly well-outside the bounds of the intended use of that template. I'd also dare say they are clearly outside of the accepted range of verifiability and reliable sourcing. Vassyana ( talk) 16:33, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
It seems odd to me that we should even consider citing a source that has not been published and is therefor not verifiable. A lecture or conference paper must be available in printed or video form for it to be verifiable ... and available means more than just in the hands of one wp editor. To cite from notes (or worse still from memory) taken by someone attending a lecture or conference is so open to error and abuse as to be unthinkable surely? Abtract ( talk) 10:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Arbitrary undent.] I think it would be truly rare that a fact or viewpoint satisfies all of our other requirements for inclusion in the encyclopedia, and the editor (after a "good faith effort") can find no better source than a school lecture. This isn't exactly scientific, but my guess is that in 99% of cases, either the editor is being lazy, or the professor's statement isn't reliable. I certainly wouldn't update this policy to reflect this possibility, as the potential for abuse is far greater than the potential for improving the product. Marc Shepherd ( talk) 21:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia seems to have a fundamental problem with sources. If you cite online sources (articles and such), well... what happens when that article is no longer around? In theory, an entire article's sources could disappear from the Internet. What if there were plenty of sources when the event occurred, but absolutely none ten years later? Does that make the event any less significant? I do not believe so. I think this is a fundamental long-term problem with Wikipedia that will eventually have to be resolved for its articles to have verifiability for many decades. -- Ihmhi ( talk) 07:05, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
It would be good to think about how to handle knol references before we start getting links to them. I've started a discussion to get editors' opinions:
Your inputs there are welcome. -- A. B. (talk) 17:04, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
I notice in country articles that government agencies are cited as sources (often via the US Central Intelligence Agency "Factbook"). We do not like individuals or corporations to cite themselves - shouldn't governments be subject to the same rule? But there seems to be an unwritten rule in WP that "we've always used the CIA Factbook, so don't question anything it says". Fourtildas ( talk) 07:43, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Congratulations Wikipedia, you are on your way to becoming a collection of uninspired senior-undergraduate essays before they are proofread by a native speaker. Verifiability? Nuts, I say. Need a reason why? I give you Ralph Furley. C'mon already. As though the NPOV b.s. were not bad enough... 129.128.67.23 ( talk) 23:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Verifiability. "Unverifiable material may be challenged and removed." Master Redyva ( talk) 14:49, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I have a concern about the growing number of quotes and citations to interviews posted at Wikinews... to me these are unreliable (Wikinews is a wiki... there is no verification that the quote is accurate). Comments? Blueboar ( talk) 20:44, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Back in October 2007 we discussed the ban on open wikis. Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Archive 22#Open wikis I had proposed removing the word "open" and others suggested that a few wikis, like Citizendium, are reliable enough to use. Then another user finessed the matter by removing the entire phrase, because " WP:SPS already covers this issue". [5] That seemed reasonable at the time, but now I don't think that leaving it implicit is sufficient. We mention "self-published books, personal websites, and blogs". I've restored "open wikis", adding it to the list in order to make it explciti. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:49, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
In the WP:SPS section, I would like to add self-published "newsletters" to the list of items "largely not acceptable as sources". It is relevant to an article I am working on. Colin MacLaurin ( talk) 10:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Can we please have a discussion of foreign language sources and verifiability. This came up in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Henrik Kreüger where the only sources are in a foreign language. I am not sure where I want to go with this but I feel that the policy ( WP:RSUE) is vague as it goes "therefore . . ." and then discusses only quoting. What about where you are not quoting? Obviously a bit of clarification is needed but first I would like discuss this from the more overarching question of; How can we say "readers should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source" if we allow non-English material to be used as sources without providing a translation? That is my basic issue; that use of non-translated foreign-language sources goes against the spirit of WP:V. I would like to see what we think of this and clarify the text to match any consensus that we can come up with. -- Alfadog ( talk) 17:57, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Just to mention that it seems that there are two issues here; 1) my original issue of (what can be boiled down as) whether an author using a foreign-language source should be required to post a translation of the bit he used as a source in the ref comments and, 2) the fact that translation itself is WP:OR and has been tacitly accepted as an exception to WP:NOR. Does that seem to sum it up? Then lets hammer out some consensus!! -- Alfadog ( talk) 14:25, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Cf. Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Archive 23#Language clarification
Re. Alfadog's "This came up in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Henrik Kreüger where the only sources are in a foreign language." - appears there was a source in English ( ISBN 91 7054 958 3), used in the Henrik Kreüger article. Also, in the AfD debate (which ended on keep), Alfadog received this comment: "I must admit Alfadog's reading of WP:RSUE sounds quite strange to me [...]". -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 17:10, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Anywho; Francis, you seem to think that there was some conclusion to this discussion based on your recent edit summary, "not covered by current talk page CONCLUSIONS". I see no "conclusion", just a somewhat open-ended discussion. Francis, what, exactly, in my edit did you object to?? -- Alfadog ( talk) 17:26, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Not to address directly any of the comments above, may I just point out that Wikipedia exists in howevermany languages, and in many (most) of them, restrictions on the use of foreign language sources would make working on many topics just impossible. On English Wikipedia we can count ourselves lucky that most of the world's (western) knowledge is available in English. Assuming that all knowledge would/should be available in English-language sources is just a tad arrogant IMHO. (The question of the quality of translations is another matter. Perhaps too much is being made of that, as in most areas it's not a big problem.) Hordaland ( talk) 18:11, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
The "challenged or likely to be challenged" language is fine for for flat assertions of fact (e.g., "The Holocaust never took place"),
However, it conflicts with WP:NOR when it is applied to Interpretive claims, analysis, or synthetic claims.
Wikipedia is a tertiary source. It is unable to draw conclusions of any kind about primary sources, ever, period. That is the job of secondary sources. Uncited conclusions... [and by uncited I mean, without explicit reference in the article body to the source of the analytical conclusion being presented] regardless of whether they reflect consensus in a field.. are presented in Wikipedia's "voice" and thus are instances of treating Wikipedia as a secondary source. In other words.. the wikipedia editor says it is the consensual view, but without a specific citation to a reliable source, all we have is a wikipedia editor acting as a secondary source. Hum.
The "challenged" wording is OK for flat assertions of fact, but not for any sort of conclusions... drawn from facts. Those always and everywhere need to be explicitly cited in the body text of the article.
Ling.Nut ( talk) 09:17, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
(undent) Mmm, I had an article in mind as an example. I had put a {{ cn}} tag on it, but soon unwatched the page after its dedicated editor made remarks that seemed to presage a long slide into incivility. Lo and behold, when I looked again today, he had later returned and offered both a better tone and a more reasonable explanation. I still disagree with his opinion, but I'm loathe to wade into naysaying the good-faith attempts of an established editor to present information in the manner that seems best to him. When it has been explained carefully, it appears to be recast as a philosophical difference between us. I still stand by my original position, but I guess I respect the right of others to disagree, given that they offer a reasonable rationale. Ling.Nut ( talk) 07:06, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I posted my above topic on Foreign language and verifiability because the policy was was not written in a clear fashion. There was discussion (in which, incidentally, the consensus went against my idea that translations be provided for foreign sources used) and a number of topics seemed to have general agreement. I incorporated those and edited the section so that it was clear.
Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, English-language sources should be used in preference to foreign-language sources, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly.
Keep in mind that translations are subject to error, whether performed by a Wikipedia editor or a professional, published translator. In principle, readers should have the opportunity to verify for themselves what the original material actually said, that it was published by a credible source, and that it was translated correctly.
Therefore, when the original material is in a language other than English:
Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, English-language sources should be used in preference to foreign-language sources, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly. However use of a non-English source does not, of itself, violate this policy. Readers that seek to verify a non-English reference may seek out a translator off-Wiki or request help from one of the editors listed at Category:Available translators in Wikipedia.
Keep in mind that translations are subject to error, whether performed by a Wikipedia editor or a professional, published translator. In principle, readers should have the opportunity to verify for themselves what the original material actually said, that it was published by a credible source, and that it was translated correctly.
Translating quoted material is of special concern. There is often a degree of interpretation done by the translator in deciding exactly how to translate something. This interpretation can cause conflict with Wikipedia policies on original research (see WP:NOR).
Therefore, when the original material is in a language other than English:
So ain't my version better? -- Alfadog ( talk) 17:11, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I am in an argument (and want to avoid a revert war) at the article Hiram Abiff over whether you can say a fictional character that appears in play that forms part of the Masonic ritual can be discribed as such in the lead. The other editor agrees that the character is fictional, but that we can not actually say this unless we have source that actually states this. I say it is rediculous to demand this. I include a citation to a reliably published verision of the actual ritual/play itself... isn't that enough? (We have also had a similar argument over whether you can call the character and the play "allegorical" or not). Please pop in and take a look. Blueboar ( talk) 22:16, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
We do not generally categorize figures from religious traditions as "fictional characters". For instance, neither Jesus nor Xenu are categorized as fictional characters. -- FOo ( talk) 07:17, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, one needs verification to say that a character as fictional. WP:NPOV prohibits characterizing religious beliefs as false and hence prohibits characterizing them as fictional. Fictional characters appear in works of fiction, the works verify them. If there is a sigificant, dispute about whether a work is fictional, its characters should not be presented as fictional except when describing the relevant viewpoint. Best, -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 08:02, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Maybe time to meet some other borderline fictional characters -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 17:23, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
In that case, with due respect to religious beliefs, the point is simply whether or not Hiram Abiff is considered fictional by Freemasons. If yes, then there is no problem mentioning it as such; if not, just indicate somewhere that (some?) Freemasons consider him real and others mythical (which in that case can be sourced if needed). Verifiability means you can verify things, but there is no need to do it in straightforward cases, given what is said about Hiram Abiff, its being considered real by somebody should indeed be sourced, but not the other way around. Michelet-密是力- Me laisser un message 07:37, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Does fansites count as unreliable sources?. Mythdon ( talk) 20:21, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
What if a prominent person owns a blog (like Gilbert Arenas) where he regularly posts his thoughts. Is this a violation since it's not really a third-party source? -- Howard the Duck 05:27, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a disagreement over mnemonics.
On the one hand, we have people who delete mnemonics (see Talk:OSI_model#Mnemonics), apparently following the Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not for things made up one day guideline. And certainly mnemonics are things that someone made up one day -- they are not facts about the physical world, and they make no sense when translated to other languages. (The mnemonics in those languages also make no sense translated into English).
On the other hand, we have people who seem to feel that Wikipedia is supposed to help us learn things, and mnemonics are a good means to that end. Some even feel that some particular mnemonics are notable enough to earn their own Wikipedia article: Roy G. Biv, All Students Take Calculus, FBI mnemonics, List of mnemonics for star classification, and others in Category:Mnemonics.
Should we delete all mnemonics from Wikipedia? If not, how do we distinguish which mnemonics are "encyclopedic enough" to include in some article? -- 68.0.124.33 ( talk) 18:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a how to. It seems however that relevant mnemonics should be easily incorporated into article texts. Hyacinth ( talk) 04:54, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
There appears to be some desire to use political satire (such as Colbert and Jon Stewart) as a source for political articles. Recently some editors have attempted to use Colbert to advance a position on the Media Matters article. [ [7]] However, Colbert is acting as his alter (fictional) ego when making the statment as part of political satire. I have removed the material twice, however there is debate as to whether it is a reliable source. Jon Stewart is also used in several articles as a source for commentary when performing political satire for his fake news show. How is this information to be treated? Are commedians a reliable source for articles, especially when their political satire equates to criticism (in the form of comedy)? By my understanding these sources would fall under extremist sources since by there very nature they present an extreme view of the subject as part of the satirical presentation. Arzel ( talk) 07:37, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I have come across a reference and I would only be able to view the article it links to if I sign up with the website hosting it. Am I correct in thinking this is a wholly inappropriate article to use as a Wikipedia reference? (I've actually already removed the reference but would like to be sure I did the right thing in case its contributor decides to revert) ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹ Speak 13:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
How do you know if a selfpub statement is 'relevant to the subject's notability'? This should be clearer. ClaudeReigns ( talk) 16:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Fine, if no one can define the term then I propose it be deleted as garbage. ClaudeReigns ( talk) 16:10, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
ClaudeReigns, what exactly are you proposing to delete?
As for "self-serving, promotional propaganda published by governments", it satisfies WP:V. If there is any question as to the propaganda's veracity, then the fact that this is government data should be explicitly mentioned in the article text and not just in the footnote. Any counter-balancing data or information should also be presented per WP:NPOV. What's the problem?
-- Richard ( talk) 18:32, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I wrote an essay on this after dealing with it twice in the last 24 hours. In the first case, someone asserted that because they found references on scholar.google.com that such references automatically demonstrated credibility. In the other case, the opposite was true: Dharmic religions has been renamed Indian religions simply because the former term is not widely used on scholar.google.com. This is despite the fact that any expert on the matter knows that referring to "dharmic" religion as "Indian" is extremely inaccurate. Sikhism is Middle-Eastern (scholars regard it as the influence of Hinduism on Islam, during the Islamic occupation of India), Mahayana Buddhism is Asian, and then there are groups like Hare Krishna, which originated in the west. All of these claims of mine can be verified by books, some of which I own myself. Saying "but its not on google" is not a valid defense.
So, I wrote this: User:Zenwhat/Googlefiability. Your opinions are welcome.
The opinions of the above essay do not appear to be a part of WP:Verifiability, but some clarification along those lines should be included because of the amount of times people making the argument, "but it's on google" or "but it's not on google." Zenwhat ( talk) 19:40, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Lists of mathematics topics doesn't provide any references to prove that the items on the list belong on the list.
Should it have to?
And how should this be covered in WP:VER?
— The Transhumanist 23:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
List of mathematics articles is a 28-page alphabetical index of all the mathematics-related articles on Wikipedia (or at least it tries to be).
There's a growing number of indexes on Wikipedia. See:
None of these provide any references for any items listed on them.
Should they have to?
And how should this be covered in WP:VER?
— The Transhumanist 23:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
There have been a lot of discussion about this issue when List of basic economics topics, List of basic geography topics and List of basic history topics were nominated for FLC, which they failed because of lack of citations. For me, the issue comes down to the concept of the page: Does the "list of topics" primary goal is to list the topics, concepts, fundamentals, basics, key actors of any field to help establish for the reader a general overview of the field; or to act as a navigation aid much like categories. If it is the first option, then citation is necessary: There obviously should be limit to the number of topics listed, so only the most fundamental ones are displayed. But who gets to decide which ones are the basics one? What if an editor adds a fringe theory as a basic topic, stating its importance in the field, whith no necessary citations to back it up. And what about the list of key actors in each field. Anyone could add his favorite, or anyone whith the same nationality. Therefore citations are critical in this kind of list, but they should aim at showing the importance of the topic and its place in its respective field, and not showing that it exists or it is discussed (as it is the case in articles).Finally, if the list of topics where just navigational aid, categories fullfils this function. CG ( talk) 10:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
May I suggest a bold Portalify, putting pages such as these in the Portal namespace since they're primarily designed to aide navigation. This would expand the current use of the currently underused Portal namespace - Halo ( talk) 04:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I see in the sources section "...books published by respected publishing houses;" and "reputation for fact checking". In an era where we are seeing easy 'on demand' printing of books; how is an editor to quantify 'well respected' or 'reputation for fact checking'? For instance, I might guess that Duke University Press is well respected with good reputation, though some editors would disagree. Or, for instance, I could also guess whether Paladin Press is well respected, but some editors would also disagree. Or, what about Praeger Press?
In short, what good is having a policy that depends on guesses. Is there any way to objectively measure a publishing house's 'respect' and 'reputation' as defined by WP:V? SaltyBoatr ( talk) 21:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
In an article like Pepsi Blue, where the items cited (in this case, advertisements featuring popular musicians) can be viewed at YouTube, can that video link be used as a good reference even though YouTube is a user-generated content site? Is additional print-media coverage (EW, USA Today, etc) necessary when the YouTube video allows the viewer to become a second-hand source (having seen the information), or should print reference trump YouTube for a reference citation? Thanks! -- BizMgr ( talk) 00:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I was bold and made a suggestion. Discuss if interested. Samsara ( talk • contribs) 19:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
WP:V has a section on how it applies to exceptional claims, but nothing to say how it should deal with absurd claims. Right now both exceptional and absurd claims are treated equally by some users, how do other users feel about motioning that WP:V being modified to differentiate between the two?
For example, it would clearly an exceptional claim if one public figure accused another of being a murderer, but it would be absurd claim if a UFO writer were to claim that the public figure was a shape-shifting lizard. Treating the two claims as equal for verifiability would make a joke out of WP:V.
perfectblue ( talk) 15:54, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Governments are not paragons of honesty and truth. Most governments lie for various reasons. In this respect there is hardly any difference between the type of government.
Often government officials would speak to the media on the condition of anonymity. How should an encyclopedic work, such as Wikipedia, handle such spin? Has the Wikipedia developed standards for reliance on media reports as representing facts? Is the Wikimedia community supposed to rely on "established media" reports as "reliable sources" for inclusion in a Wiki Article, even if these "reliable sources" do not disclose their own sources or attribute their facts to anonymous government officials?
It has been shown again and again that media outlets cannot be fully trusted as "reliable sources". There are many reasons for that: The speed with which news must be produced, the corporate control of established media, the incestous relationship between government officials and their helpfulf media outlets, commercial and sensationalist bias, and the laws of inertia.
Even books by known scholars and peer-reviewed journal articles are not necessarily "reliable sources", particularly in controversial subjects. It is widely known that academics' work is often tainted by the source of grants, the fear of losing tenure, conflicts of interests and other considerations. In some fields, most academic work is actually funded by the government or by corporations, a fact that reflects negatively on the reliability of the academic work.
I suggest that the criteria for "reliable sources" should be amended in the light of the above. The editor should be made morally accountable of assessing the reliability of sources and particularly refrain from relying on sources which are hidden behind the corporate or government veil (even if they are disseminated through the open media).-- Sannleikur ( talk) 00:47, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
What about when governments release information which is "fact", for example the results of a Census or when governments have collected available research for the purposes of informing a white paper or other public policy? Could the government material be used then? 82.0.206.215 ( talk) 19:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for answering so quickly. Sorry to pester. Are you including government literature reviews in that answer? Or do these have different criteria for use? 82.0.206.215 ( talk) 19:19, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
In the page section on self-published sources, the policy had said, in part: "there is no reasonable doubt as to who wrote it..."
I changed "wrote" here to "authored" so we can clarify that the policy does not only cover writen material, but any self-published material, for example an audio tape or a film. Wjhonson ( talk) 22:51, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I have written an essay about assessing the reliability of different articles. I was hoping to get other editors to review, add to it and edit it. Currently, it is in my userspace at User:Billscottbob/Assessing reliability. Thanks for any input you may have. If you have anything you wish to discuss about it please do not discuss it here. Please discuss it on the talk page of the essay. Billscottbob ( talk) 02:37, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I suggest there be a policy called Verifiability (fiction), to give users an understanding of what is reliable or unreliable in the cases of fiction such as tv shows, video games, books, novels, comic books, and other fiction related stuff. Mythdon ( talk) 05:18, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
What is the procedure for making changes to this policy?
Do I simply suggest them here and then make them if nobody objects? Do I need to get an admin to sponsor my idea? Is there a separate forum to post on?
perfectblue ( talk) 21:23, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Image:Verifiability artwork.jpg is from Flickr. The creator put it under CC-by especially for us. One image can communicate great slabs of policy text, I think. Any deep objections? (other than "humor is intrinsically inappropriate" or equivalent) - David Gerard ( talk) 08:28, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Since Wikipedia pages are open wikis and considered self-published sources, they cannot be considered reliable sources? What about open wikis that have strict verification processes and policies, such as this site?
I haven't been here long, but I was under the impression that Wikipedia, by its very design, is a publication with a greater "degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work" than most magazines and newspapers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrick Snyder ( talk • contribs) 17:03, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
What is the policy with regards to verifying image content. Users are actively encouraged to create and submit images but in most cases we only have their word that they depict what they say they depict. Obviously good faith should be assumed but this alone is not always sufficient in other areas where verifiability is the issue. Guest9999 ( talk) 05:36, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Does this thing actually help clarify the section? It's better than the koan which was recently proposed for WP:IAR, but what information does it convey which might lead to an improved encyclopedia? Does it present a coherent metaphor? In particular, was Galileo questioned as to whether he had a source for the telescopic observations he made? Was the problem that his research was original, or that it didn't agree with the hegemony of the time? Wouldn't this scene be more coherent if WP:UNDUE was the subject of discussion?
But again, the only real question is: Does this improve the encyclopedia? I'm very doubtful. MilesAgain ( talk) 21:57, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Given that this page is WP:V. I'd have preferred it if the image actually mentioned WP:V. As it is it mentions pretty much everything but. Maybe this would be appropriate at the top of a page, but not half way down. - perfectblue ( talk) 21:15, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I have suggested an article be deleted here: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Cooneyites. This is a test case I have put up where almost the entire article is uncited and what citations exist are from a self-published web site. The group is real, has existed for 100 years, and is still active. The editors of the article have a somewhat con- bias to the group. My question is this: should a decision to delete the article based on WP:V be based on the article content as it stands or on article potential? If the latter, my concern is that such claims can always be made about any topic, and such claims are very difficult to assess. In other words, I believe the consideration to either remove the article or reduce it to a stub, should be based on the article as it stands in wikipedia not on its potential. Slofstra ( talk) 03:50, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Two additional related questions. (1) There is a whole class of potential topics, especially in Religion, which have not been subject to academic level research so only SPS materials exist. These are not fringe theories. Should that kind of topic be included in wiki, i.e. not Fringe, but no good WP:SOURCES exist? (2) In terms of histories, is it permissible to build secondary articles out of primary source materials, such as letters, newspaper accounts, diaries and personal photos. Or is that OR? Slofstra ( talk) 18:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
If sources are found or very likely present out there, an article shouldn't be deleted simply because its creator hasn't cited them in the article. However, if there are currently no reliable sources published on the topic but editors think they are likely to be published in the future, the article should be deleted without prejudice to future recreation because of WP:NOR. WP:NOR, which prohibits being the first to publish on a topic, requires actual sources to be present here and now in order to avoid deletion. -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 22:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
FYI, this section is fascinating here. Please read and weigh in there. An editor is asserting it could be OR and unacceptable to make an article from sources that wouldn't be readily available to everyone, or using old harder to find sources. Lawrence § t/ e 00:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Is it ok if I can get a list of reliable third-party publications? Megagents ( talk) 16:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Discuss it where? Megagents ( talk) 08:08, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh! That makes sense. Sorry to bother you, thanks :) Megagents ( talk) 21:03, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Are old sources, like Herodotus' Histories, Cassius Dio's Roman History or the Alexiad, considered reliable sources? I worked on referencing the Dobruja article, and since all modern historian basically quote or paraphrase the above mentioned authors when speaking about certain events, I decided to reference those events with their original sources. Now I'm not that sure I was doing the right thing. The good part of using the old sources is that they're freely available full-text on the web, most of them with English translations, so anybody can check whether a source is used fairly or not. The modern sources are mostly non-English books, inaccesible on the web, and hardly available for verification in the usual English libraries. I should note that no user disputed the accuracy of the events referenced by these old sources, but this may be due to the fact that there are not so many users interested in the subject. Should I continue to use those old sources, freely available on the web, or should I use the modern sources quoting the old ones? Baltaci ( talk) 20:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I write a Japanese Music blog. There are no recognized English experts in this field and my reviews are subjective and critical, but they are reviews and so therefore they contain my own personal opinions of the music. I use Wordpress because I have no idea how to do any of the scripting required for such a site. My question is why my links are being taken down when so many people have no idea what this music sounds like or what it's about? I, personally, have been the victim of there not being enough information about an album, especially when wanting to buy it. It's not really about numbers, but, yes, I would like people to come to the site and learn about the artist/album/song they are interested in. On the subject of reliablility, barring severe illness, I have been posting at least once a week (if not seven days a week) since September. In closing, critics come in all forms (especially with regards to music). I do what most musical critics from major magazines do, it is just more in depth, and I would very much like to link to Wikipedia to further the depth of your resources and offer another studied opinion as I am a Music Major and do research musically about the album before posting.
Sincerely, Patrick
vinyabarion.wordpress.com (Who's Afraid of Music?) ( Vinyabarion ( talk))
( Vinyabarion ( talk)) —Preceding comment was added at 01:28, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Recently, myself and a number of other editors run into problems on a number of occasions where other editors have read WP:V and interprited the "extraordinary claim" clause as meaning that all claims that fall outside of the mundane should be treated equally, even if the claim isn't so much extraordinary as it is silly.
Thus, I propose adding the following clause onto the end of "Extraordinary claims" so that can be clear on the difference between "extraordinary," from "just plain silly" as far as WP:V is concerned.
Here goes.
Extraordinary v absurd
On occasion, editors may run across notable claims which fulfill one or more of the criteria of an "Extraordinary Claim" but which are so fantastic in nature that they cannot be taken any way other than with substantial dose of salt. By their very nature such claims fall outside of the bounds of an Extraordinary Claim, and when encountered the onus is on the editor to verify that an incredible claim was made, rather than to verify that the contents of the claim against real world benchmarks.
If nobody objects I'll insert this into WP:V.
perfectblue ( talk) 12:30, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Verifiability V Truth
On occasion, editors may run across notable claims which fulfill one or more of the criteria of an "Extraordinary Claim" but which are so fantastic in nature that they cannot be taken any way other than with substantial dose of salt. By their very nature such claims fall outside of the bounds of an Extraordinary Claim, and when encountered the onus is on the editor to verify that an incredible claim was made, rather than to verify that the contents of the claim can stand up to scrutiny.
how about now? - perfectblue ( talk) 21:25, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Rather than simply objecting, it would be more productive if people offer compromise wordings. What does everybody else consider an appropriate way to say that a while Extraordinary Claims (not capital letters) require extraordinary proof, not everything that is extraordinary is an Extraordinary Claim? The present WP:V wording imply isn't working. It's OK for serious real world issues such as politics and history, but it's highly problematic when dealing with more out of the box issues. - perfectblue ( talk) 11:16, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Verifiability&diff=prev&oldid=188800853
I don't think we're edit warring despite the rapid editing going on - we're working around a common goal and refining it. Still, I'm going to bow out for a little while because I've already had three edits to the "exceptional claims" section today...I do like the direction we're heading by tightening things up a little and specifying what specific areas (scientific, historical, etc. claims without widespread support in the relevant community) would caution that we're all susceptible to the objection that the old version was just fine and that we haven't established consensus for any changes. Cheers; happy Superbowl for the Americans here. Wikidemo ( talk) 23:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to suggest randomly that the above discussion might be about Television series episode synopsis. So the issue to consider might possibly be whether a series synopsis is purely descriptive and whether such an article would be verifiable in wikisense. This is a question, I don't pretend to have an answer. Wjhonson ( talk) 17:15, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I remain deeply skeptical that we have a consensus among our editors or users to turn back the "all television episodes are notable" approach, and would further suggest that, due to the differences in length between a television series taken holistically and a film, our commitment to giving a general plot overview of fictional texts for the most part necessitates some level of episode-by-episode focus for television series. But given that this debate has raged for over a year and was just the subject of an RfC, this feels rather like forum shopping. Phil Sandifer ( talk) 23:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm I see that plot is already covered on the what wikipedia is not page, which addresses, provided that remains consensus, the question of whether an article could be solely a plot synopsis. To answer my own question, I guess I would concede that an editor-created synopsis of a plot drawn solely from their own observation would be fine. I'm fairly sure it's the actual practice onwiki. That reasoning would apply as well to artwork, books and articles. I.E. that any editor can create a descriptive synopsis without the need to quote it from a source other than the work itself. Wjhonson ( talk) 00:32, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Much is made of the Wikipedia policy of verifiability, or citation of sources.
The problem is that Wikipedia is only paying lip-service to those policies. In order to adhere to those policies, Wikipedia needs to start again from scratch. Simple as that. We are nibbling around the edges, telling people the policies, diligently going round putting "fact" tags against factoids we don't know or don't like.
But to implement that policy properly, we have to go through and systematically root out every fact, every bit of information that hasn't been sourced properly. We don't dare do that, because it would mean the disappearance of most of what has been built up until now. Instead, we are trying to whip things into shape by using the "fact" (cite source) tag. But the problem is that the "fact" tag is actually being used in a sneakier way. People are adding tags to things that they don't like, or things that they've never heard of, sometimes removing information that they think sounds dodgy. It's being used as a weapon like POV -- a way of pushing other people around based on a "negative" -- failure to cite sources.
Some time ago, someone removed information on the old pronunciation of the character 白 in Li Bai (李白), which was Po or Bo. They said it "wasn't sourced". I didn't have the dictionary at hand that I could cite to prove the information. Someone just said, "Oh, this isn't sourced". They didn't add a "fact" tag; they just deleted it. When I appealed, I was told that that that kind of information (the old reading of 白) is precisely the information that should be cited or removed. Needless to say, I couldn't understand why that particular piece of information was removed when there are articles positively swimming in unsupported statements that people simply assume to be true.
At the article on Macanese pataca, someone did a quick-and-dirty appraisal for GA status, especially singling out the local name "葡币" as unsourced information. (Pretty simple-minded, actually. Since it was obviously "local knowledge" there was a good chance it couldn't be backed up from a "reputable source". But one of the strengths of Wikipedia, as I see it, is that it can bring in this kind of local knowledge that other encyclopedias don't carry. But that's just my opinion). So someone who wanted to defend the article from attacks added a fact tag, thinking he was bringing the article in line with Wikipedia policies. Well, he wasn't. Adding a question mark doesn't help improve the article, and it doesn't bring it any closer to fulfilling the policies of Wikipedia.
Our "fact" tag policy (or delete factoids without references policy) is nothing just a selective or simple-minded application of the verifiability criterion. In many ways it's worse than not applying it at all.
To sum up my point: quite simply, Wikipedia is guilty of hypocrisy. We are allowing people to wield "Verifiability" as a big stick to beat people when it's convenient. If we really wanted to follow our own guidelines we would stop letting people run round adding "fact" tags or deleting little bits they disagreed with. We would go though and delete entire sections, entire articles, that fail to adhere to policy. The only remedy for Wikipedia's current state is to delete information wholesale -- not just rather obvious factoids that are clearly based on local knowledge, but ALL information that doesn't agree with our guideline. We have our policies but aren't prepared to bite the bullet. As a result, our policies just turn into a weapon for people to wield, just like NPOV.
It's easy to say: "Everything should be referenced!" It's impossible to argue against. Who could disagree? But when it's done in a selective kind of way, it's just the same as the selective application of laws by despotic regimes. They use reasonable-sounding laws not to improve society, but to clobber people when they need to. If the guideline is so sacred, we should put our money where our mouth is. Stop pussyfooting round: go through and enforce ruthlessly. And take the consequences.
Bathrobe ( talk) 03:27, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Our sources must be
There seems be a problem when an otherwise reliable verifiable source is used in a wikipedia article on an issue in which the source has a stake. A source with an overall good reputation for fact checking and professional journalism might fail when self-interest is involved. I think we need to add the following to the wikipedia policy:
The next question is: when is there a conflict of interest?
I propose as a solution:
— Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk) 12:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
There has been on ongoing dispute over the application of the "exceptional claims require exceptional sources" on the talk page of the permanently contentious article Allegations of state terrorism committed by the United States. I would greatly appreciate it if a couple of editors who are very familiar with our verifiability policy and its application could help on this. Don't worry I'm only interested in a comment on how the "exceptional claims" policy should be applied, not in any help on the specifics of the article content.
An RfC was filed about this issue and can be found here (unfortunately most of the comments have come from people involved in the article). If someone wants to comment over there great, but I'll paste my initial description of the dispute on this page. It basically involves an editor named Raggz on one side and several editors (including myself) on another: (following excerpted from the article talk page, a specific example is used to illustrate the debate, but again I'm interested only in the general principle)
I think this is an accurate description of the dispute. If one or three folks could weigh in as to which of these general interpretations of the "exceptional claims" section is correct (or perhaps there are problems in both and the truth lies somewhere else) that would be much appreciated. The debate has probably taken up a couple hundred thousand kilobytes on the article talk page and we need help drawing it to a conclusion. I would welcome comments on the RfC linked to above but perhaps this is worth clarifying here on the policy talk page for future reference. Thanks in advance for anyone who can help on this.-- Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 02:03, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
This topic has also been discussed at WP:RS/N#Allegations of state terrorism committed by the United States. Relata refero ( talk) 17:30, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
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Please come participate in the discussion here. It involves image use policy issues far beyond the template itself. Thanks. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:56, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I don’t claim to be the best wordsmith, but I think I have all the elements included without making the wording unwieldy.
Thanks, Brimba ( talk) 04:33, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm still not too happy about:
Exceptional claims should be supported by the best sources, and preferably multiple reliable sources.
It can be misconstrued to read like: if you can't find "multiple reliable sources" (the preferred solution), then we'll settle for "the best sources" you can find (...they don't even have to be reliable...) - Maybe far-fetched, but if we can reduce ambiguity, why not. So, proposing this replacement:
If you want to include an exceptional claim in Wikipedia try to find the best sources that would support such claim. If enough of these sources are also reliable there should not be a problem to include the material based on such sources, as far as also keeping to other policies like those on biographies of living persons and not giving undue weight to remote opinions.
Or is that too wordy for a policy page? Anyway, for reference: I suggested this rewrite in part because I happened to be reading this thread yesterday: Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Frank_LaGrotta (exceptional claim removed for BLP and undue weight reasons, notwithstanding that the "best source" was also a "reliable source" - see also User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 122#BLP Question). -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 05:54, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Did you have problems to read more than a single sentence?If you want to include an exceptional claim in Wikipedia try to find the best sources that would support such claim. If enough of these sources are also reliable there should not be a problem to include the material based on such sources, as far as also keeping to other policies like those on biographies of living persons and not giving undue weight to remote opinions.
My argument is that the best source does not always equal a reliable source.
“Exceptional claims should be supported by the best sources” That is the standard for dealing with exceptional claims under the current wording. And yes I can read. It is preferable that we use multiple high quality reliable sources, but not mandatory. There in lies the problem.
If you are going to say “best sources”, then it is entirely possible, and very much probable that some people will insist on taking you at your word. Thus you get into situations such as this from the Talk:Operation Gladio:
My point:
Reply:
Concerning WP:UNDUE:
The reply:
Ganser is only one of many such “best sources” that I could have pulled up to make my point, although he is probably the best known within the WP community, and therefore the best example to use. The point of including this is to show that people don’t always take things as written or as intended. They can put there own spin on things, so when we write, especially at the policy level, we need to say things clearly or risk people gaming the system to meet their own ends.
Ganser is someone who makes multiple exceptional claims, specifically that most every terrorist attack in Western Europe over the last several decades has been the work the CIA, designed as false-flag operations to discredit left wing political parties, specifically Western European communists’ parties, or achieve some other end as the White House desires. His claims include that the CIA tried to assassinate Pope John Paul II to make the Russians look bad; That the CIA controlled the Red Brigade, and ordered the assignation of Aldo Moro to make the Italian communist party look bad; that the US government allowed the 9/11 attacks to occur for geostrategic purposes. So forth and so on. He’s been savaged in peer reviews, left his university post for reasons that where never explained, and had good things to say about Lyndon Larouche and and had good things said about him by Lyndon Larouche. After all of that, he is still the Best Source for much of what he claims as he is often the only source besides Larouche and the Italian Communist party. Still, there are a number of articles within Wikipedia that use him as a source, and he has quite a dedicated following.
Here you have a source making claims that trigger probably every single redflag we list, and yet, despite his less than stellar reputation, one could argue that he is the “best source”. Ganser is not the point, the point is that the current wording defeats the intent of the “Exceptional claims require exceptional sources” section. “Exceptional claims should be supported by the best sources” does not even live up to the section heading. Brimba ( talk) 06:23, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Exceptional claims should be supported by the best sources, and preferably multiple reliable sources.
“If you want to include an exceptional claim in Wikipedia try to find the best sources that would support such claim.”
This section of the policy now says:
I wonder if this statement is sufficiently nuanced. For a well-covered topic like George W. Bush or lung cancer, I seriously doubt if any fact or opinion worth noting would have appeared in a blog or self-published book, that has not also appeared in a mainstream source. For topics like these, I think it's safe to say that self-published sources are practically never acceptable.
But because Wikipedia is not paper, the encyclopedia now covers many below-the-radar subjects for which the best sources may indeed be self-published. I occasionally find editors aggressively removing citations from self-published sources, because they believed (per this policy) that such sources are considered categorically unreliable in almost all circumstances. The focus of the section should be on indicia of reliability, rather than blanket (or near-blanket) statements that put a patina of grave doubt on an entire category of sources.
The section has a footnote that is similarly flat-footed:
Newspapers' interactive columns aren't just called blogs; generally, they are blogs. This well founded exception ought to be integrated into the text, instead of being relegated to a footnote. (I do agree that "reader comments" are practically never reliable.) Marc Shepherd ( talk) 17:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
MikeBlas and I have been having a similar discussion. In our case it's a forum in question, but it's the same principle: can a source self-published, but self-published by someone with verifiable authority, be cited? -- Tom Edwards ( talk) 10:56, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Reference User:Kazvorpal#Truth, not Silence. WP:V as stated permits wholesale reversion of good-faith edits, by the process of an editor simply calling them unreliable (i.e., questionable) and refusing to discuss reliability, which is an unintentionally one-sided application of the policy. And since reliability is a spectrum ("the greater the degree of scrutiny involved"), there is not a clear line between reliability and questionability, which should also be emphasized. This would be remedied by insertions in the policy.
(I am also making the minor change of correcting "living people" to "living persons" twice, and linking WP:BLP on first reference.) Please indicate consensus on this proposal below. Thank you for your consideration. John J. Bulten 19:18, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Not needed now. Marskell 14:46, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia policies are reflections of consensus, and usually not reflections of the results of polling. I strongly recommend that instead of asking people simply support or oppose this proposal, you instead simply encourage an open discussion that does not have the appearance of a vote. On another note, your suggestion would be a lot easier to understand if you make a userfied version of WP:V, edit it how you see fit, and then point to the diff of your edit! - Chardish 19:29, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
The issue raised can be easily resolved by WP:CONSENSUS and if that is not achievable, the users involved in the dispute about the reliability of a source can engage in dispute resolution. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
We can talk about the merits when the agenda's fully on the table. This appears to be a bad faith attempt at wikilawyering to change WP:V in favour of including material posted by User:John J. Bulten at Moneybomb - material that there was consensus to delete because of unreliable sources. See also WP:COI/N#Moneybomb. Gordonofcartoon 16:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
“When an editor provides a source and indicates good faith in its reliability, the burden of evidence shifts to the editor who challenges the insertion.”
This would turn WP:V on its head, as few people add sources that they personal regard as unreliable. So ANY source that is added is de-facto reliable by the standards of the editor adding the material. Fallowing your logic, ALL material added to Wikipedia must be proven unreliable before it could be removed, unless the editor adding that material openly states that he himself/herself regards the source as unreliable. The burden must, and is, upon the person wishing to add or retain the material, and not to those removing the material.
“There was not consensus to delete.” I might point out that you have inverted consensus here, there is no such thing as consensus to remove questionable material, simply a lack of consensus to retain it. Anyone restoring questionable material on the claim that there is “a lack of consensus to remove” is being disingenuous. Brimba 01:29, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Proposed change
Material from self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources in articles about themselves, so long as:
|
Rationale
1. Missions statements are technically disallowed by the current policy, but they are obviously relevant and important. Here is an example from Wikipedia:
2. Self-published statements should not only be allowable, they are essential, especially for controversial topics. Here are two valid statements from Wikipedia that under the current policy are disallowed:
3. By insisting that the material be indicated to be a self-published statement, we avoid sentences such as "Kevin Trudeau's books offer cures for a myriad of illnesses."
—
DavidMack 21:50, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Missions statements are technically disallowed by the current policy. That is an incorrect assessment. Mission statements are indeed allowed and featured in many articles. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:19, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I oppose the change. It loosens what is already an exception to the general rule. If a self-published source is contentious, it should simply not be used (as under current policy). Allowing contentious self-published sources would seem to be almost asking for a new crop of edit wars. I also don't understand the need for a loosening of the restrictions on self-serving sources. I've never seen anyone assert that reasonable self-serving material (like a mission statement) is unduly self-serving. So, in essence, I believe changing one would be to the detriment of the wiki and that the other shows no need for change. Remember, SELFPUB is an exception to the normal rule. Some significant proof and a strong consensus is going to be needed for an expansion of an allowance that is contradictory to the general consensus. Vassyana ( talk) 13:00, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to add a minor clarification in the first paragraph: change "any reader" to "any reader conversant in the language of the source" If an article's sources are all in Russian, I obviously am not able to check that the article's material has been previously published in reliable sources, nor is any other reader who is not conversant in Russian. Thoughts/reactions? UnitedStatesian ( talk) 14:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Seems like you're trying to re-invent WP:V#Non-English sources.
No, not all sections (nor their summaries) of the WP:V policy are crammed in the first paragraph (I can assure you, it has been tried before).
If you're looking for an article built on non-English sources, here's an example: Wikifonia. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 10:06, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
"self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources."
On talk:Purgatory, some editors read this sentence to mean that these sources are usually not acceptable, but that we can make special exceptions as we see fit. Since the exceptions listed are not explicitly said to be the only and exclusive exceptions, these editors say that there are other exceptions to be determined at the editors' discretion. Is that right? Does this policy mean "no self-published sources unless most editors on the talk page agree that it's OK"? If you want to see the actual discussion, it's at Talk:Purgatory#Dr._Anthony_Dragani. Thanks. Leadwind ( talk) 14:48, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I do some work with small historical sites, mostly those listed on the NRHP. I am curious about how I should go about using information I glean from signage at the site. It seems to me that this is usually (but not always) a version of self-published information, so I limit my use of it to small factual matters. I use other sources to establish notability, etc. An example of my aproach can be seen at Barnsdall Main Street Well Site. Is this an acceptable approach? Should I upload images of the signs in question? Should the title of section 2.3 be changed to Self-published source (Online and on paper, wood, metal, stone, or any other substance) :)? Dsmdgold ( talk) 17:43, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
How do I quote a lecture? For example, if I'm studying at medical school, and I'm adding an article about a cell using information from a lecture, is that an acceptable source? I'd like to imagine it is (if medical professors are telling us incorrect stuff about medicine, you guys are in for a load of hurt in 10 years when we all start hitting practice), but how do I quote it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lenrodman ( talk • contribs) 07:58, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
{{ cite conference}} certainly exists for a reason. Academic conferences can be important sources of information. Conference proceedings are published in standard practice. Everyday university class lectures are certainly well-outside the bounds of the intended use of that template. I'd also dare say they are clearly outside of the accepted range of verifiability and reliable sourcing. Vassyana ( talk) 16:33, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
It seems odd to me that we should even consider citing a source that has not been published and is therefor not verifiable. A lecture or conference paper must be available in printed or video form for it to be verifiable ... and available means more than just in the hands of one wp editor. To cite from notes (or worse still from memory) taken by someone attending a lecture or conference is so open to error and abuse as to be unthinkable surely? Abtract ( talk) 10:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Arbitrary undent.] I think it would be truly rare that a fact or viewpoint satisfies all of our other requirements for inclusion in the encyclopedia, and the editor (after a "good faith effort") can find no better source than a school lecture. This isn't exactly scientific, but my guess is that in 99% of cases, either the editor is being lazy, or the professor's statement isn't reliable. I certainly wouldn't update this policy to reflect this possibility, as the potential for abuse is far greater than the potential for improving the product. Marc Shepherd ( talk) 21:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia seems to have a fundamental problem with sources. If you cite online sources (articles and such), well... what happens when that article is no longer around? In theory, an entire article's sources could disappear from the Internet. What if there were plenty of sources when the event occurred, but absolutely none ten years later? Does that make the event any less significant? I do not believe so. I think this is a fundamental long-term problem with Wikipedia that will eventually have to be resolved for its articles to have verifiability for many decades. -- Ihmhi ( talk) 07:05, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
It would be good to think about how to handle knol references before we start getting links to them. I've started a discussion to get editors' opinions:
Your inputs there are welcome. -- A. B. (talk) 17:04, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
I notice in country articles that government agencies are cited as sources (often via the US Central Intelligence Agency "Factbook"). We do not like individuals or corporations to cite themselves - shouldn't governments be subject to the same rule? But there seems to be an unwritten rule in WP that "we've always used the CIA Factbook, so don't question anything it says". Fourtildas ( talk) 07:43, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Congratulations Wikipedia, you are on your way to becoming a collection of uninspired senior-undergraduate essays before they are proofread by a native speaker. Verifiability? Nuts, I say. Need a reason why? I give you Ralph Furley. C'mon already. As though the NPOV b.s. were not bad enough... 129.128.67.23 ( talk) 23:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Verifiability. "Unverifiable material may be challenged and removed." Master Redyva ( talk) 14:49, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I have a concern about the growing number of quotes and citations to interviews posted at Wikinews... to me these are unreliable (Wikinews is a wiki... there is no verification that the quote is accurate). Comments? Blueboar ( talk) 20:44, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Back in October 2007 we discussed the ban on open wikis. Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Archive 22#Open wikis I had proposed removing the word "open" and others suggested that a few wikis, like Citizendium, are reliable enough to use. Then another user finessed the matter by removing the entire phrase, because " WP:SPS already covers this issue". [5] That seemed reasonable at the time, but now I don't think that leaving it implicit is sufficient. We mention "self-published books, personal websites, and blogs". I've restored "open wikis", adding it to the list in order to make it explciti. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:49, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
In the WP:SPS section, I would like to add self-published "newsletters" to the list of items "largely not acceptable as sources". It is relevant to an article I am working on. Colin MacLaurin ( talk) 10:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Can we please have a discussion of foreign language sources and verifiability. This came up in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Henrik Kreüger where the only sources are in a foreign language. I am not sure where I want to go with this but I feel that the policy ( WP:RSUE) is vague as it goes "therefore . . ." and then discusses only quoting. What about where you are not quoting? Obviously a bit of clarification is needed but first I would like discuss this from the more overarching question of; How can we say "readers should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source" if we allow non-English material to be used as sources without providing a translation? That is my basic issue; that use of non-translated foreign-language sources goes against the spirit of WP:V. I would like to see what we think of this and clarify the text to match any consensus that we can come up with. -- Alfadog ( talk) 17:57, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Just to mention that it seems that there are two issues here; 1) my original issue of (what can be boiled down as) whether an author using a foreign-language source should be required to post a translation of the bit he used as a source in the ref comments and, 2) the fact that translation itself is WP:OR and has been tacitly accepted as an exception to WP:NOR. Does that seem to sum it up? Then lets hammer out some consensus!! -- Alfadog ( talk) 14:25, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Cf. Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Archive 23#Language clarification
Re. Alfadog's "This came up in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Henrik Kreüger where the only sources are in a foreign language." - appears there was a source in English ( ISBN 91 7054 958 3), used in the Henrik Kreüger article. Also, in the AfD debate (which ended on keep), Alfadog received this comment: "I must admit Alfadog's reading of WP:RSUE sounds quite strange to me [...]". -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 17:10, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Anywho; Francis, you seem to think that there was some conclusion to this discussion based on your recent edit summary, "not covered by current talk page CONCLUSIONS". I see no "conclusion", just a somewhat open-ended discussion. Francis, what, exactly, in my edit did you object to?? -- Alfadog ( talk) 17:26, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Not to address directly any of the comments above, may I just point out that Wikipedia exists in howevermany languages, and in many (most) of them, restrictions on the use of foreign language sources would make working on many topics just impossible. On English Wikipedia we can count ourselves lucky that most of the world's (western) knowledge is available in English. Assuming that all knowledge would/should be available in English-language sources is just a tad arrogant IMHO. (The question of the quality of translations is another matter. Perhaps too much is being made of that, as in most areas it's not a big problem.) Hordaland ( talk) 18:11, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
The "challenged or likely to be challenged" language is fine for for flat assertions of fact (e.g., "The Holocaust never took place"),
However, it conflicts with WP:NOR when it is applied to Interpretive claims, analysis, or synthetic claims.
Wikipedia is a tertiary source. It is unable to draw conclusions of any kind about primary sources, ever, period. That is the job of secondary sources. Uncited conclusions... [and by uncited I mean, without explicit reference in the article body to the source of the analytical conclusion being presented] regardless of whether they reflect consensus in a field.. are presented in Wikipedia's "voice" and thus are instances of treating Wikipedia as a secondary source. In other words.. the wikipedia editor says it is the consensual view, but without a specific citation to a reliable source, all we have is a wikipedia editor acting as a secondary source. Hum.
The "challenged" wording is OK for flat assertions of fact, but not for any sort of conclusions... drawn from facts. Those always and everywhere need to be explicitly cited in the body text of the article.
Ling.Nut ( talk) 09:17, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
(undent) Mmm, I had an article in mind as an example. I had put a {{ cn}} tag on it, but soon unwatched the page after its dedicated editor made remarks that seemed to presage a long slide into incivility. Lo and behold, when I looked again today, he had later returned and offered both a better tone and a more reasonable explanation. I still disagree with his opinion, but I'm loathe to wade into naysaying the good-faith attempts of an established editor to present information in the manner that seems best to him. When it has been explained carefully, it appears to be recast as a philosophical difference between us. I still stand by my original position, but I guess I respect the right of others to disagree, given that they offer a reasonable rationale. Ling.Nut ( talk) 07:06, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I posted my above topic on Foreign language and verifiability because the policy was was not written in a clear fashion. There was discussion (in which, incidentally, the consensus went against my idea that translations be provided for foreign sources used) and a number of topics seemed to have general agreement. I incorporated those and edited the section so that it was clear.
Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, English-language sources should be used in preference to foreign-language sources, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly.
Keep in mind that translations are subject to error, whether performed by a Wikipedia editor or a professional, published translator. In principle, readers should have the opportunity to verify for themselves what the original material actually said, that it was published by a credible source, and that it was translated correctly.
Therefore, when the original material is in a language other than English:
Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, English-language sources should be used in preference to foreign-language sources, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly. However use of a non-English source does not, of itself, violate this policy. Readers that seek to verify a non-English reference may seek out a translator off-Wiki or request help from one of the editors listed at Category:Available translators in Wikipedia.
Keep in mind that translations are subject to error, whether performed by a Wikipedia editor or a professional, published translator. In principle, readers should have the opportunity to verify for themselves what the original material actually said, that it was published by a credible source, and that it was translated correctly.
Translating quoted material is of special concern. There is often a degree of interpretation done by the translator in deciding exactly how to translate something. This interpretation can cause conflict with Wikipedia policies on original research (see WP:NOR).
Therefore, when the original material is in a language other than English:
So ain't my version better? -- Alfadog ( talk) 17:11, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I am in an argument (and want to avoid a revert war) at the article Hiram Abiff over whether you can say a fictional character that appears in play that forms part of the Masonic ritual can be discribed as such in the lead. The other editor agrees that the character is fictional, but that we can not actually say this unless we have source that actually states this. I say it is rediculous to demand this. I include a citation to a reliably published verision of the actual ritual/play itself... isn't that enough? (We have also had a similar argument over whether you can call the character and the play "allegorical" or not). Please pop in and take a look. Blueboar ( talk) 22:16, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
We do not generally categorize figures from religious traditions as "fictional characters". For instance, neither Jesus nor Xenu are categorized as fictional characters. -- FOo ( talk) 07:17, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, one needs verification to say that a character as fictional. WP:NPOV prohibits characterizing religious beliefs as false and hence prohibits characterizing them as fictional. Fictional characters appear in works of fiction, the works verify them. If there is a sigificant, dispute about whether a work is fictional, its characters should not be presented as fictional except when describing the relevant viewpoint. Best, -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 08:02, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Maybe time to meet some other borderline fictional characters -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 17:23, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
In that case, with due respect to religious beliefs, the point is simply whether or not Hiram Abiff is considered fictional by Freemasons. If yes, then there is no problem mentioning it as such; if not, just indicate somewhere that (some?) Freemasons consider him real and others mythical (which in that case can be sourced if needed). Verifiability means you can verify things, but there is no need to do it in straightforward cases, given what is said about Hiram Abiff, its being considered real by somebody should indeed be sourced, but not the other way around. Michelet-密是力- Me laisser un message 07:37, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Does fansites count as unreliable sources?. Mythdon ( talk) 20:21, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
What if a prominent person owns a blog (like Gilbert Arenas) where he regularly posts his thoughts. Is this a violation since it's not really a third-party source? -- Howard the Duck 05:27, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a disagreement over mnemonics.
On the one hand, we have people who delete mnemonics (see Talk:OSI_model#Mnemonics), apparently following the Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not for things made up one day guideline. And certainly mnemonics are things that someone made up one day -- they are not facts about the physical world, and they make no sense when translated to other languages. (The mnemonics in those languages also make no sense translated into English).
On the other hand, we have people who seem to feel that Wikipedia is supposed to help us learn things, and mnemonics are a good means to that end. Some even feel that some particular mnemonics are notable enough to earn their own Wikipedia article: Roy G. Biv, All Students Take Calculus, FBI mnemonics, List of mnemonics for star classification, and others in Category:Mnemonics.
Should we delete all mnemonics from Wikipedia? If not, how do we distinguish which mnemonics are "encyclopedic enough" to include in some article? -- 68.0.124.33 ( talk) 18:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a how to. It seems however that relevant mnemonics should be easily incorporated into article texts. Hyacinth ( talk) 04:54, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
There appears to be some desire to use political satire (such as Colbert and Jon Stewart) as a source for political articles. Recently some editors have attempted to use Colbert to advance a position on the Media Matters article. [ [7]] However, Colbert is acting as his alter (fictional) ego when making the statment as part of political satire. I have removed the material twice, however there is debate as to whether it is a reliable source. Jon Stewart is also used in several articles as a source for commentary when performing political satire for his fake news show. How is this information to be treated? Are commedians a reliable source for articles, especially when their political satire equates to criticism (in the form of comedy)? By my understanding these sources would fall under extremist sources since by there very nature they present an extreme view of the subject as part of the satirical presentation. Arzel ( talk) 07:37, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I have come across a reference and I would only be able to view the article it links to if I sign up with the website hosting it. Am I correct in thinking this is a wholly inappropriate article to use as a Wikipedia reference? (I've actually already removed the reference but would like to be sure I did the right thing in case its contributor decides to revert) ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹ Speak 13:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
How do you know if a selfpub statement is 'relevant to the subject's notability'? This should be clearer. ClaudeReigns ( talk) 16:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Fine, if no one can define the term then I propose it be deleted as garbage. ClaudeReigns ( talk) 16:10, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
ClaudeReigns, what exactly are you proposing to delete?
As for "self-serving, promotional propaganda published by governments", it satisfies WP:V. If there is any question as to the propaganda's veracity, then the fact that this is government data should be explicitly mentioned in the article text and not just in the footnote. Any counter-balancing data or information should also be presented per WP:NPOV. What's the problem?
-- Richard ( talk) 18:32, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I wrote an essay on this after dealing with it twice in the last 24 hours. In the first case, someone asserted that because they found references on scholar.google.com that such references automatically demonstrated credibility. In the other case, the opposite was true: Dharmic religions has been renamed Indian religions simply because the former term is not widely used on scholar.google.com. This is despite the fact that any expert on the matter knows that referring to "dharmic" religion as "Indian" is extremely inaccurate. Sikhism is Middle-Eastern (scholars regard it as the influence of Hinduism on Islam, during the Islamic occupation of India), Mahayana Buddhism is Asian, and then there are groups like Hare Krishna, which originated in the west. All of these claims of mine can be verified by books, some of which I own myself. Saying "but its not on google" is not a valid defense.
So, I wrote this: User:Zenwhat/Googlefiability. Your opinions are welcome.
The opinions of the above essay do not appear to be a part of WP:Verifiability, but some clarification along those lines should be included because of the amount of times people making the argument, "but it's on google" or "but it's not on google." Zenwhat ( talk) 19:40, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Lists of mathematics topics doesn't provide any references to prove that the items on the list belong on the list.
Should it have to?
And how should this be covered in WP:VER?
— The Transhumanist 23:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
List of mathematics articles is a 28-page alphabetical index of all the mathematics-related articles on Wikipedia (or at least it tries to be).
There's a growing number of indexes on Wikipedia. See:
None of these provide any references for any items listed on them.
Should they have to?
And how should this be covered in WP:VER?
— The Transhumanist 23:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
There have been a lot of discussion about this issue when List of basic economics topics, List of basic geography topics and List of basic history topics were nominated for FLC, which they failed because of lack of citations. For me, the issue comes down to the concept of the page: Does the "list of topics" primary goal is to list the topics, concepts, fundamentals, basics, key actors of any field to help establish for the reader a general overview of the field; or to act as a navigation aid much like categories. If it is the first option, then citation is necessary: There obviously should be limit to the number of topics listed, so only the most fundamental ones are displayed. But who gets to decide which ones are the basics one? What if an editor adds a fringe theory as a basic topic, stating its importance in the field, whith no necessary citations to back it up. And what about the list of key actors in each field. Anyone could add his favorite, or anyone whith the same nationality. Therefore citations are critical in this kind of list, but they should aim at showing the importance of the topic and its place in its respective field, and not showing that it exists or it is discussed (as it is the case in articles).Finally, if the list of topics where just navigational aid, categories fullfils this function. CG ( talk) 10:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
May I suggest a bold Portalify, putting pages such as these in the Portal namespace since they're primarily designed to aide navigation. This would expand the current use of the currently underused Portal namespace - Halo ( talk) 04:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I see in the sources section "...books published by respected publishing houses;" and "reputation for fact checking". In an era where we are seeing easy 'on demand' printing of books; how is an editor to quantify 'well respected' or 'reputation for fact checking'? For instance, I might guess that Duke University Press is well respected with good reputation, though some editors would disagree. Or, for instance, I could also guess whether Paladin Press is well respected, but some editors would also disagree. Or, what about Praeger Press?
In short, what good is having a policy that depends on guesses. Is there any way to objectively measure a publishing house's 'respect' and 'reputation' as defined by WP:V? SaltyBoatr ( talk) 21:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
In an article like Pepsi Blue, where the items cited (in this case, advertisements featuring popular musicians) can be viewed at YouTube, can that video link be used as a good reference even though YouTube is a user-generated content site? Is additional print-media coverage (EW, USA Today, etc) necessary when the YouTube video allows the viewer to become a second-hand source (having seen the information), or should print reference trump YouTube for a reference citation? Thanks! -- BizMgr ( talk) 00:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I was bold and made a suggestion. Discuss if interested. Samsara ( talk • contribs) 19:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
WP:V has a section on how it applies to exceptional claims, but nothing to say how it should deal with absurd claims. Right now both exceptional and absurd claims are treated equally by some users, how do other users feel about motioning that WP:V being modified to differentiate between the two?
For example, it would clearly an exceptional claim if one public figure accused another of being a murderer, but it would be absurd claim if a UFO writer were to claim that the public figure was a shape-shifting lizard. Treating the two claims as equal for verifiability would make a joke out of WP:V.
perfectblue ( talk) 15:54, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Governments are not paragons of honesty and truth. Most governments lie for various reasons. In this respect there is hardly any difference between the type of government.
Often government officials would speak to the media on the condition of anonymity. How should an encyclopedic work, such as Wikipedia, handle such spin? Has the Wikipedia developed standards for reliance on media reports as representing facts? Is the Wikimedia community supposed to rely on "established media" reports as "reliable sources" for inclusion in a Wiki Article, even if these "reliable sources" do not disclose their own sources or attribute their facts to anonymous government officials?
It has been shown again and again that media outlets cannot be fully trusted as "reliable sources". There are many reasons for that: The speed with which news must be produced, the corporate control of established media, the incestous relationship between government officials and their helpfulf media outlets, commercial and sensationalist bias, and the laws of inertia.
Even books by known scholars and peer-reviewed journal articles are not necessarily "reliable sources", particularly in controversial subjects. It is widely known that academics' work is often tainted by the source of grants, the fear of losing tenure, conflicts of interests and other considerations. In some fields, most academic work is actually funded by the government or by corporations, a fact that reflects negatively on the reliability of the academic work.
I suggest that the criteria for "reliable sources" should be amended in the light of the above. The editor should be made morally accountable of assessing the reliability of sources and particularly refrain from relying on sources which are hidden behind the corporate or government veil (even if they are disseminated through the open media).-- Sannleikur ( talk) 00:47, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
What about when governments release information which is "fact", for example the results of a Census or when governments have collected available research for the purposes of informing a white paper or other public policy? Could the government material be used then? 82.0.206.215 ( talk) 19:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for answering so quickly. Sorry to pester. Are you including government literature reviews in that answer? Or do these have different criteria for use? 82.0.206.215 ( talk) 19:19, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
In the page section on self-published sources, the policy had said, in part: "there is no reasonable doubt as to who wrote it..."
I changed "wrote" here to "authored" so we can clarify that the policy does not only cover writen material, but any self-published material, for example an audio tape or a film. Wjhonson ( talk) 22:51, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I have written an essay about assessing the reliability of different articles. I was hoping to get other editors to review, add to it and edit it. Currently, it is in my userspace at User:Billscottbob/Assessing reliability. Thanks for any input you may have. If you have anything you wish to discuss about it please do not discuss it here. Please discuss it on the talk page of the essay. Billscottbob ( talk) 02:37, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I suggest there be a policy called Verifiability (fiction), to give users an understanding of what is reliable or unreliable in the cases of fiction such as tv shows, video games, books, novels, comic books, and other fiction related stuff. Mythdon ( talk) 05:18, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
What is the procedure for making changes to this policy?
Do I simply suggest them here and then make them if nobody objects? Do I need to get an admin to sponsor my idea? Is there a separate forum to post on?
perfectblue ( talk) 21:23, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Image:Verifiability artwork.jpg is from Flickr. The creator put it under CC-by especially for us. One image can communicate great slabs of policy text, I think. Any deep objections? (other than "humor is intrinsically inappropriate" or equivalent) - David Gerard ( talk) 08:28, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Since Wikipedia pages are open wikis and considered self-published sources, they cannot be considered reliable sources? What about open wikis that have strict verification processes and policies, such as this site?
I haven't been here long, but I was under the impression that Wikipedia, by its very design, is a publication with a greater "degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work" than most magazines and newspapers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrick Snyder ( talk • contribs) 17:03, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
What is the policy with regards to verifying image content. Users are actively encouraged to create and submit images but in most cases we only have their word that they depict what they say they depict. Obviously good faith should be assumed but this alone is not always sufficient in other areas where verifiability is the issue. Guest9999 ( talk) 05:36, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Does this thing actually help clarify the section? It's better than the koan which was recently proposed for WP:IAR, but what information does it convey which might lead to an improved encyclopedia? Does it present a coherent metaphor? In particular, was Galileo questioned as to whether he had a source for the telescopic observations he made? Was the problem that his research was original, or that it didn't agree with the hegemony of the time? Wouldn't this scene be more coherent if WP:UNDUE was the subject of discussion?
But again, the only real question is: Does this improve the encyclopedia? I'm very doubtful. MilesAgain ( talk) 21:57, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Given that this page is WP:V. I'd have preferred it if the image actually mentioned WP:V. As it is it mentions pretty much everything but. Maybe this would be appropriate at the top of a page, but not half way down. - perfectblue ( talk) 21:15, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I have suggested an article be deleted here: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Cooneyites. This is a test case I have put up where almost the entire article is uncited and what citations exist are from a self-published web site. The group is real, has existed for 100 years, and is still active. The editors of the article have a somewhat con- bias to the group. My question is this: should a decision to delete the article based on WP:V be based on the article content as it stands or on article potential? If the latter, my concern is that such claims can always be made about any topic, and such claims are very difficult to assess. In other words, I believe the consideration to either remove the article or reduce it to a stub, should be based on the article as it stands in wikipedia not on its potential. Slofstra ( talk) 03:50, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Two additional related questions. (1) There is a whole class of potential topics, especially in Religion, which have not been subject to academic level research so only SPS materials exist. These are not fringe theories. Should that kind of topic be included in wiki, i.e. not Fringe, but no good WP:SOURCES exist? (2) In terms of histories, is it permissible to build secondary articles out of primary source materials, such as letters, newspaper accounts, diaries and personal photos. Or is that OR? Slofstra ( talk) 18:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
If sources are found or very likely present out there, an article shouldn't be deleted simply because its creator hasn't cited them in the article. However, if there are currently no reliable sources published on the topic but editors think they are likely to be published in the future, the article should be deleted without prejudice to future recreation because of WP:NOR. WP:NOR, which prohibits being the first to publish on a topic, requires actual sources to be present here and now in order to avoid deletion. -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 22:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
FYI, this section is fascinating here. Please read and weigh in there. An editor is asserting it could be OR and unacceptable to make an article from sources that wouldn't be readily available to everyone, or using old harder to find sources. Lawrence § t/ e 00:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Is it ok if I can get a list of reliable third-party publications? Megagents ( talk) 16:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Discuss it where? Megagents ( talk) 08:08, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh! That makes sense. Sorry to bother you, thanks :) Megagents ( talk) 21:03, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Are old sources, like Herodotus' Histories, Cassius Dio's Roman History or the Alexiad, considered reliable sources? I worked on referencing the Dobruja article, and since all modern historian basically quote or paraphrase the above mentioned authors when speaking about certain events, I decided to reference those events with their original sources. Now I'm not that sure I was doing the right thing. The good part of using the old sources is that they're freely available full-text on the web, most of them with English translations, so anybody can check whether a source is used fairly or not. The modern sources are mostly non-English books, inaccesible on the web, and hardly available for verification in the usual English libraries. I should note that no user disputed the accuracy of the events referenced by these old sources, but this may be due to the fact that there are not so many users interested in the subject. Should I continue to use those old sources, freely available on the web, or should I use the modern sources quoting the old ones? Baltaci ( talk) 20:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I write a Japanese Music blog. There are no recognized English experts in this field and my reviews are subjective and critical, but they are reviews and so therefore they contain my own personal opinions of the music. I use Wordpress because I have no idea how to do any of the scripting required for such a site. My question is why my links are being taken down when so many people have no idea what this music sounds like or what it's about? I, personally, have been the victim of there not being enough information about an album, especially when wanting to buy it. It's not really about numbers, but, yes, I would like people to come to the site and learn about the artist/album/song they are interested in. On the subject of reliablility, barring severe illness, I have been posting at least once a week (if not seven days a week) since September. In closing, critics come in all forms (especially with regards to music). I do what most musical critics from major magazines do, it is just more in depth, and I would very much like to link to Wikipedia to further the depth of your resources and offer another studied opinion as I am a Music Major and do research musically about the album before posting.
Sincerely, Patrick
vinyabarion.wordpress.com (Who's Afraid of Music?) ( Vinyabarion ( talk))
( Vinyabarion ( talk)) —Preceding comment was added at 01:28, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Recently, myself and a number of other editors run into problems on a number of occasions where other editors have read WP:V and interprited the "extraordinary claim" clause as meaning that all claims that fall outside of the mundane should be treated equally, even if the claim isn't so much extraordinary as it is silly.
Thus, I propose adding the following clause onto the end of "Extraordinary claims" so that can be clear on the difference between "extraordinary," from "just plain silly" as far as WP:V is concerned.
Here goes.
Extraordinary v absurd
On occasion, editors may run across notable claims which fulfill one or more of the criteria of an "Extraordinary Claim" but which are so fantastic in nature that they cannot be taken any way other than with substantial dose of salt. By their very nature such claims fall outside of the bounds of an Extraordinary Claim, and when encountered the onus is on the editor to verify that an incredible claim was made, rather than to verify that the contents of the claim against real world benchmarks.
If nobody objects I'll insert this into WP:V.
perfectblue ( talk) 12:30, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Verifiability V Truth
On occasion, editors may run across notable claims which fulfill one or more of the criteria of an "Extraordinary Claim" but which are so fantastic in nature that they cannot be taken any way other than with substantial dose of salt. By their very nature such claims fall outside of the bounds of an Extraordinary Claim, and when encountered the onus is on the editor to verify that an incredible claim was made, rather than to verify that the contents of the claim can stand up to scrutiny.
how about now? - perfectblue ( talk) 21:25, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Rather than simply objecting, it would be more productive if people offer compromise wordings. What does everybody else consider an appropriate way to say that a while Extraordinary Claims (not capital letters) require extraordinary proof, not everything that is extraordinary is an Extraordinary Claim? The present WP:V wording imply isn't working. It's OK for serious real world issues such as politics and history, but it's highly problematic when dealing with more out of the box issues. - perfectblue ( talk) 11:16, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Verifiability&diff=prev&oldid=188800853
I don't think we're edit warring despite the rapid editing going on - we're working around a common goal and refining it. Still, I'm going to bow out for a little while because I've already had three edits to the "exceptional claims" section today...I do like the direction we're heading by tightening things up a little and specifying what specific areas (scientific, historical, etc. claims without widespread support in the relevant community) would caution that we're all susceptible to the objection that the old version was just fine and that we haven't established consensus for any changes. Cheers; happy Superbowl for the Americans here. Wikidemo ( talk) 23:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to suggest randomly that the above discussion might be about Television series episode synopsis. So the issue to consider might possibly be whether a series synopsis is purely descriptive and whether such an article would be verifiable in wikisense. This is a question, I don't pretend to have an answer. Wjhonson ( talk) 17:15, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I remain deeply skeptical that we have a consensus among our editors or users to turn back the "all television episodes are notable" approach, and would further suggest that, due to the differences in length between a television series taken holistically and a film, our commitment to giving a general plot overview of fictional texts for the most part necessitates some level of episode-by-episode focus for television series. But given that this debate has raged for over a year and was just the subject of an RfC, this feels rather like forum shopping. Phil Sandifer ( talk) 23:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm I see that plot is already covered on the what wikipedia is not page, which addresses, provided that remains consensus, the question of whether an article could be solely a plot synopsis. To answer my own question, I guess I would concede that an editor-created synopsis of a plot drawn solely from their own observation would be fine. I'm fairly sure it's the actual practice onwiki. That reasoning would apply as well to artwork, books and articles. I.E. that any editor can create a descriptive synopsis without the need to quote it from a source other than the work itself. Wjhonson ( talk) 00:32, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Much is made of the Wikipedia policy of verifiability, or citation of sources.
The problem is that Wikipedia is only paying lip-service to those policies. In order to adhere to those policies, Wikipedia needs to start again from scratch. Simple as that. We are nibbling around the edges, telling people the policies, diligently going round putting "fact" tags against factoids we don't know or don't like.
But to implement that policy properly, we have to go through and systematically root out every fact, every bit of information that hasn't been sourced properly. We don't dare do that, because it would mean the disappearance of most of what has been built up until now. Instead, we are trying to whip things into shape by using the "fact" (cite source) tag. But the problem is that the "fact" tag is actually being used in a sneakier way. People are adding tags to things that they don't like, or things that they've never heard of, sometimes removing information that they think sounds dodgy. It's being used as a weapon like POV -- a way of pushing other people around based on a "negative" -- failure to cite sources.
Some time ago, someone removed information on the old pronunciation of the character 白 in Li Bai (李白), which was Po or Bo. They said it "wasn't sourced". I didn't have the dictionary at hand that I could cite to prove the information. Someone just said, "Oh, this isn't sourced". They didn't add a "fact" tag; they just deleted it. When I appealed, I was told that that that kind of information (the old reading of 白) is precisely the information that should be cited or removed. Needless to say, I couldn't understand why that particular piece of information was removed when there are articles positively swimming in unsupported statements that people simply assume to be true.
At the article on Macanese pataca, someone did a quick-and-dirty appraisal for GA status, especially singling out the local name "葡币" as unsourced information. (Pretty simple-minded, actually. Since it was obviously "local knowledge" there was a good chance it couldn't be backed up from a "reputable source". But one of the strengths of Wikipedia, as I see it, is that it can bring in this kind of local knowledge that other encyclopedias don't carry. But that's just my opinion). So someone who wanted to defend the article from attacks added a fact tag, thinking he was bringing the article in line with Wikipedia policies. Well, he wasn't. Adding a question mark doesn't help improve the article, and it doesn't bring it any closer to fulfilling the policies of Wikipedia.
Our "fact" tag policy (or delete factoids without references policy) is nothing just a selective or simple-minded application of the verifiability criterion. In many ways it's worse than not applying it at all.
To sum up my point: quite simply, Wikipedia is guilty of hypocrisy. We are allowing people to wield "Verifiability" as a big stick to beat people when it's convenient. If we really wanted to follow our own guidelines we would stop letting people run round adding "fact" tags or deleting little bits they disagreed with. We would go though and delete entire sections, entire articles, that fail to adhere to policy. The only remedy for Wikipedia's current state is to delete information wholesale -- not just rather obvious factoids that are clearly based on local knowledge, but ALL information that doesn't agree with our guideline. We have our policies but aren't prepared to bite the bullet. As a result, our policies just turn into a weapon for people to wield, just like NPOV.
It's easy to say: "Everything should be referenced!" It's impossible to argue against. Who could disagree? But when it's done in a selective kind of way, it's just the same as the selective application of laws by despotic regimes. They use reasonable-sounding laws not to improve society, but to clobber people when they need to. If the guideline is so sacred, we should put our money where our mouth is. Stop pussyfooting round: go through and enforce ruthlessly. And take the consequences.
Bathrobe ( talk) 03:27, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Our sources must be
There seems be a problem when an otherwise reliable verifiable source is used in a wikipedia article on an issue in which the source has a stake. A source with an overall good reputation for fact checking and professional journalism might fail when self-interest is involved. I think we need to add the following to the wikipedia policy:
The next question is: when is there a conflict of interest?
I propose as a solution:
— Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk) 12:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
There has been on ongoing dispute over the application of the "exceptional claims require exceptional sources" on the talk page of the permanently contentious article Allegations of state terrorism committed by the United States. I would greatly appreciate it if a couple of editors who are very familiar with our verifiability policy and its application could help on this. Don't worry I'm only interested in a comment on how the "exceptional claims" policy should be applied, not in any help on the specifics of the article content.
An RfC was filed about this issue and can be found here (unfortunately most of the comments have come from people involved in the article). If someone wants to comment over there great, but I'll paste my initial description of the dispute on this page. It basically involves an editor named Raggz on one side and several editors (including myself) on another: (following excerpted from the article talk page, a specific example is used to illustrate the debate, but again I'm interested only in the general principle)
I think this is an accurate description of the dispute. If one or three folks could weigh in as to which of these general interpretations of the "exceptional claims" section is correct (or perhaps there are problems in both and the truth lies somewhere else) that would be much appreciated. The debate has probably taken up a couple hundred thousand kilobytes on the article talk page and we need help drawing it to a conclusion. I would welcome comments on the RfC linked to above but perhaps this is worth clarifying here on the policy talk page for future reference. Thanks in advance for anyone who can help on this.-- Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 02:03, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
This topic has also been discussed at WP:RS/N#Allegations of state terrorism committed by the United States. Relata refero ( talk) 17:30, 6 February 2008 (UTC)