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I am being told by an admin, User:Jossi, that he can re-introduce challenged facts without providing a citation as long as the facts are "verifiable", as in can be verified. I moved the info to the talk page at Talk:List_of_Romanian_actors#Work_log for others to find citations for them. But he insists on keeping the uncited information in the article itself saying "Moving it to talk, simply removes any possibility from the occasional editor to come and add a source". My opinion is that moving it to talk prevents readers from reading potentially false information.
he says to me "You are misinterpreting WP:V". Is this true? Why doesn't the policy say this? Where have I gone wrong in interpreting this policy? Are uncited facts really allowed to stay even after being challenged because they are "verifiable"? I want to follow the rules here, but what are the rules? Until(1 == 2) 04:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
First, I didn't delete anything, I moved it to the talk page where things that need to meet inclusion standards belong. Secondly I found the first 19 references so don't imply that I never did any research. Third, removing unsourced information is an important contribution that stops Wikipedia from turning into a gossip mill. I would appreciate it if you did not diminish my contributions. And finally, {{ fact}} tags are not a requirement before removing unsourced data. I gave plenty of notice on the talk page before during and after. Everything I removed I re-posted on the talk page to be addressed. I am not just tossing stuff out. But now we are just repeating ourselves, I am interested in others opinions on this matter. Until(1 == 2) 04:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Sourcing is new to wikipedia. Articles written for wikipedia in the early years were typically not sourced. There remain many thousands of excellent article in wikipedia from those years that remain to be properly sourced. Do not delete any data from wikipedia that you believe to be both true and not harmful regardless of whether or not it is sourced. Sourcing is an improvement and only a requrement if someone honestly believes it is either false or harmful (per WP:BLP or WP:LIBEL for example). The reqirement is that it is capable of being sourced. It only fails this requirement if people actually look online and in libraries for a source and can't find one. It does not fail this requirement just because a question on a talk page goes unanswered. WAS 4.250 12:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I have come to the conclusion that the wording of the current policy is not in line with the community consensus on how WP:V should be interpreted. So I am proposing the following changes/additions:
Please let me know you opinion on each change suggested. Until(1 == 2) 15:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
First, my opinion on these changes is that it is better as it is now. However, I would rather have a policy that the community agrees to and that can be followed without people getting angry at me. I will gladly accept consensus in this matter however my personal opinion is that these changes are misguided.
In regards to #1, pretty much all information is "capable of being sourced", I suppose consensus can determine this on a case by case basis. Re: #2 This seem reasonable if specific criteria are made available to the person doing the cleanup. Re: #3, it seems rather contrary to have people being forced to research other people's claims, but if the community agrees this is the duty of the person removing the content then I will accept this. Re: #4, this may be reasonable, but it also needs to be more clearly defined.
I am attempting to sincerely represent the opinions of the community in this matter, if you feel I have misinterpreted things please feel free to re-draft any of these additions. But what cannot continue is the policy saying one thing, then the community getting all upset with me when I follow it. Lets get the policy in line with consensus here, or there will be unnecessary conflict and interruptions to important encyclopedic editing. Until(1 == 2) 15:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
This current policy does not leave it up to judgment, it clearly puts the burden on the person seeking to add the information. Perhaps you can draft a change that allows consensus to override the burden of proof? I guess point #1 can cover that, thus making point #3 redundant if consensus determines it "capable of being sourced" Until(1 == 2) 16:06, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
See
WP:ATT where this is discussed as follows:
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:13, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
If you think the policy is fine as it is now, then I expect you to follow it and not return unsourced content after it has been challenged. Even when I removed 4 names that had no citations or even wikilinks you revert me [1], I know you found citations, but why did you have to criticize and revert my removal, instead of just citing them before re-adding? WAS(and just now you) described a policy where that is not allowed. Perhaps you can draft a proposed addition that settles this? Until(1 == 2) 16:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I think "Unsourced information may be re-added despite being challenged by an editor if consensus determines that the information is capable of being sourced" (option number one above) descibes current practice and consensus for what current practice should be. Adding it to the policy page would help with cases where peope go around deleting stuff the rest of us agree should be sourced eventually and not deleted. I think we should add it to the policy page. WAS 4.250 16:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I think the starting point has to be there are no rules. Unfortunately, there are a wide variety of people out there who want to do things that aren't going to end up with producing a good quality article, therefore it is useful to have guidelines. Like any contract, they are best not used, and in business if you are reading the contract then things have already gone too far wrong. At the moment, there is something amiss with the spirit of editing: many of us grumpy folk here are here because we got Wiki-Lawyered and came to defend our position in the face of irreconcilable differences. I'm of a view that strengthening the rules undermines the guiding principles and things need to be clearer, but looser.
There is an interesting similarity with a problem that Formula 1 has on aerodynamic parts. The rule is 'no moving parts' however teams made bendy bits that accidentally moved in a favourable way under pressure at speed, so F1 added rules to say no bendy bits and must not bend under x amount of pressure. What they then found was that people built parts that bent to the test tolerance. So they adjusted the rules to say no bendy bits, the test is so and so, but the principle is still no bendy bits so if we think you are building bendy bits we reserve the right to change the rules to protect the spirit. I think this is a phase we are seeing the rules going through here: in seeking to sort out the guidelines, we are losing the spirit which is avoid rules where possible if it gets us to a good result. Spenny 16:33, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
The wording "any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged" does not cover the situation where somebody chooses to challenge otherwise uncontroversial material in order to prove a point. However, we can cover that situation ourselves by applying common sense. Tim Vickers 16:40, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
This is not needed. With all due respect to Until(1 == 2), this entire proposal seems unproductive and unhelpful (See e.g., WP:BURO WP:CREEP, as well as other reasons already mentioned above). The fact that it appears to have been motivated by a specific (and apparently still-pending) content dispute suggests Wikipedia:Taking it outside would have been more appropriate.
There are many mature WP contributors who are quite capable and very familiar with what does and does not contribute to article improvement. Spoon-feeding them with step-by-step edicts and rote formulaic recipes is not going to help. The experienced contributors already know these steps and apply them as appropriate; because they work, not because they are legislated from on-high.
What's worse, less mature contributors are not even going to bother with these recipes, except when they can be used against someone else. What's even worse, is that you appear to be saying nothing more than: "cites count, but so does consensus" ... Wikipedia:Consensus (et. al.) already cover that.
If you really feel strongly about your viewpoint, create an essay ( Category:Wikipedia essays) just like everyone else who has a personal viewpoint to share and promote. If it gains traction there will be enough "consensus" to elevate it to policy status anyway. Changes to policy should not be considered the first choice for resolving recent or pending content disputes. dr.ef.tymac 17:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not convinced these rules need to be written. The first is obvious from the fact that while this page says information may be challenged & removed if it isn't sourced, it doesn't say it must always be sourced. The second is a fairly obvious corollary of WP:CIVIL -- people get upset if content they're working on is arbitrarily deleted without warning, and we should strive not to upset other editors. The third is merely a good suggestion but I wouldn't want it anywhere near policy, because it would stop us from dealing with content that we knew was wrong efficiently. The fourth I don't think is even a good idea. If an unreferenced tag or large numbers of fact tags have been on an article for a long time, or if it is negative BLP, then it always appropriate to remove uncited information, however much of it there is. Even if there is consensus for any of these, it's more of a guideline issue than a policy one, so here isn't the right place for it. JulesH 18:28, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
So, here's the thing... I don't agree with Until's method of conducting this debate - I can assume enough good faith to assume that he didn't create a straw man deliberately, but that's what the original proposal seems to be. However, I do think that there's a genuine concern here: there are ways that I have seen that popular practice (and, by implication, consensus) deviates from the policy/guidelines that I've seen, at least within sub-groups and topic areas. New users do read policy and guidelines and try to apply them, in good faith, and it is frustrating when it turns out that what the handy documents tell us, or seem to tell us, isn't what people expect, and they in fact get quite annoyed. I think what's happening here is that a user has sought clarification, and then suggested that that clarification ought to be in the documents new users tend to read. SamBC 18:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I thought I kind of liked this project, but that was because I had read its rules. Now I see that, in a blatant case such as this, pretty much every experienced contributor around here takes a side against these rules, or at least shamelessly reproaches those who advocate them, or at best pretends to ignore the nature of the conflict altogether. Obviously, what seemed good in the rules was mostly the result of an accident, and so was my liking it. The rules were an illusion, and the reality is the behaviour that I see here.-- Anonymous44 20:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
The problem can be illustrated by clicking on "random article" a few times. I just did and got Jan z Tarnowa. It has no external links or references or tags warning of lack of references. It was created in 2005 before the current push for sources. Wikipedia is not helped by deleting that article, unless someone does a good check and finds no sources. On the other hand if someone just now added it, it would be ok to demand sources as the burden lies on them. Perhaps we need to say that this policy is different regarding older articles. Grandfathered in? WAS 4.250 20:46, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
WAS 4.250's example, the article on Jan z Tarnowa is a good case study. WAS found it using random article, and found that no sources were included. Great. How long it takes to find a reference? I found hundreds of sources on the first five minutes, unfortunately the sources are all in Polish. If I am interested in building an encyclopedia, I would contact a Wikipedian that speaks the language ( Category:User_pl) and ask for assistance. If I am interested in following the rules, I would mark as {{ unreferenced}} and come back two weeks later to delete the material and ask for a speedy deletion. That is the difference between applying the rules for rule's sake, and building an encyclopedia. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
We should add that randomly deleting unreferenced information is considered disruptive. A real life friend read this policy and tried to do that. He was blocked. -- Kaypoh 06:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I am glad this conflict led to a better set of articles ... This seems to sum it up quite well. Disputes arise from time to time, but if the parties involved can agree to a mutually-acceptable outcome that unquestionably improves WP content, then it's a definite win/win scenario.
Another win/win scenario would be if any further comments or discussion on this matter could be moved to the relevant Essay and User talk pages. Thanks to all involved for your consideration. Regards. dr.ef.tymac 15:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
There is no need to change policy as expressed abundantly already in this talk page. If material is verifiable, then verify it by looking for a source. If you cannot find a source, tag it as {{ fact}}, and give others a chance to look for sources. Unless, of course, it is a BLP in which case you delete on-sight. It is all in policy and guidelines. Now, lets move on to help build the encyclopedia. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I hate to belabor a topic that seems to have been settled, but I have one further thought about the discussions above, as they relate to the line:
"Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed."
I think the word "may" could be the problem. On one hand it can be read as a warning to editors who are writing articles - that any unsourced material they add "might" be removed. On the other hand it can be read as giving permission to editors who are reviewing articles - that they "are allowed" to remove unsourced material. Given that the rest of the sentence is addressed to the editors doing the writing, I have always assumed that it was intended as a warning... but it is obvious from the discussion above that others see it as granting permission (or even granting a mandate) to delete. So what is the intent?
If the intent is a warning, I would suggest changing the word "may" to "might"... as it would make the intent clearer. If the intent is to grant permission, then I think we need a clear pointer to a guideline that tells editors when they should do so. Blueboar 16:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I tried this which was promptly reverted. Does that wording helps or makes this more confusing? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:27, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
(<---)That's a wonderful suggestion SlimVirgin. To Colin: What kind of encyclopedia do you envision will be written by policies that do not require people making desicions about articles to have knowledge of the subject? WAS 4.250 13:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Are you intending to alter the meaning of this, or do you simply not notice what difference your editing would make? If the former, are you aware of the implications? SlimVirgin (talk) (contribs) 23:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Although consensus was apparently reached here, now more editors are involved, we may get a broader range of opinion. The current "Wrong version" wording is:
Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science. Material from reliable non-academic sources is also welcome in these areas, particularly if they are respected mainstream publications. The appropriateness of any source always depends on the context. Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text.
I can live with omitting "with good reputations for accuracy" as this can be argued to be redundant with "reliable". The "attribution" statement is OK and although saying sources are "welcome" seems to the gilding the lily, this doesn't alter the main meaning of the paragraph for me. This version, if not ideal, therefore seems OK with me. Does this version deal with any NPOV concerns? Tim Vickers 00:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm willing to work towards consensus on the talk page. If you think wider input would be a good idea, do people recommend listing this discussion at the village pump or RfC/policy? On the proposal, SlimVirgin, are you unhappy with any statement that one source is more reliable than another? Is your position that reliability is binary and something is either reliable or not, and that you can't state that something is more likely to be reliable than something else? Tim Vickers 00:24, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
No, but discussion can move us forwards. This paragraph does not define reliability, instead it offers guidance on where reliable sources are most likely to be found. Neither does it say that academic sources are "always better" in any subject area, indeed it specifically notes that appropriateness depends on context. Since this compromise version therefore deals with all your concerns, do you find it acceptable? Tim Vickers 00:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Observation and comment: Although I am reluctant to interject here, there are a few points that seem very disconcerting regarding the history and development of this proposal:
Examples of 2b include:
Since there are plenty of substantive, logical, and internally consistent reasons to take issue with this proposal, the apparently gratuitous and somewhat contradictory "contributor evaluation" that has been repeatedly offered here seems beyond the point and outside the scope of this discussion page. Either "deep community-wide feedback" is welcome and necessary, or it isn't. Let's be blunt: the more participation we get, the easier it is get side-tracked by how "previously uninvolved" the participants are. Classic catch-22.
There may indeed be some users who are unfamiliar with the issues, the primary "stakeholders" and relevant historical development of WP policy. There may indeed be "policy dabbler" contributors who need to do their homework before their efforts can be taken seriously. I respectfully suggest to you that, at least for the purposes of this proposal, the contributor who forwarded it is not one of them. I base this solely on what I believe to be an impartial and informed evaluation of relevant contributions made on WP policy pages, policy talk pages, and user talk pages. I don't know any of you personally.
I assure you, there are some quite well-informed people out here who are not WP admins, who do not have stratospheric edit counts, and who (nevertheless) do not meet the definition of "uninformed policy dabblers" ... you don't have to a page in order to review its history and the contributions of its core participants. Yes, some of us have in fact done some homework. Even if that number is relatively small, WP policy is not well-served by incorrectly painting all "non-entrenched" participants with the same broad stroke.
If we truly believe in evaluating contributions independently of the contributors, then let's do that. More "2a", and less "2b" seems called for. dr.ef.tymac 01:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The current version as a compromise wording is a value judgment that does not belong in the verifiability policy. Above I posted Value judgments as to which of two or more sources meeting WP:RS is better for the article should be based on Good article criteria and Featured article criteria. Using WP:V to as a basis for deciding such value judgments is instruction creep.. The response was that it was a circular reference. Let me see if I can make my point clearer. Item 2 of What is a good article? addresses this verifiable policy. A newspaper and a scholarly work can be a WP:RS for an article so that both comply with What is a good article? Item 2. The issues regarding adding newspaper content to an article arises under What is a good article? Item 3. What is a good article? Item 3 states:
It is broad in its coverage. In this respect, it:(a) addresses the major aspects of the topic; and (b) stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary details.
What is a good article? Item 3 has nothing to do with this verifiability policy. If you think your WP:RS newspaper content is going to get into an article that address scholarly material by modifying this verifiability policy, you are wrong. If you think modifying this verifiability policy is going to keep WP:RS newspaper content out of articles that address scholarly material, you are wrong. What is a good article? Item 3 addresses what content should go into an article. -- Jreferee ( Talk) 05:51, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand what "deep change" people are talking about. For a long time, WP:ATTR had said that "In general, the most reliable sources are books and journals published by universities; mainstream newspapers; and university level textbooks, magazines and journals that are published by known publishing houses." This is defining reliability, which SlimVirgin says we shouldn't do, and while it is not explicitly priotitizing academia, it certainly tends to point in that direction. As for consensus - I wonder just how many users should be involved, and just who determines the quota. -- Anonymous44 14:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The current version seems decent. However, I feel we need to integrate the undue weight clause of NPOV for dealing with specious references. In articles I have worked on related to conspiracy theories about 9/11, we sure aren't going to be adding misinformation referenced from books that been printed and sold but are obviously based on a fringe minority viewpoint and not supported by the known evidence. Having something in print is not sufficient rationale for referencing in even non scientific articles.-- MONGO 04:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
This discusion is continued at Wikipedia talk:Requests for verification
In the recent discussion involving User:Until(1 == 2) and the deletion of unreferenced content I noticed a trend. Many mature editors mentioned that historically Wikipedia did not require references. So it is appropriate to to provide warning and allow time for older articles and additions to be referenced. That is all well, good and reasonable. In the current time we have Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research and messages like "Articles that do not cite reliable published sources are likely to be deleted." when you open an edit screen to make a NEW ARTICLE. So I propose that is also reasonable to argue that any content or articles added since January 1, 2007 that are unreferenced are posted directly in violation of Wikipedia policy. In Wikitionary new unrefrenced articles are tagged with {{rfv}} which reads
As was brought to my attention about Wikipedia:Unreferenced articles it is clear that project will never get out of backlog. There are less people adding references then there are people adding unreferenced content. So as what is the desire of the community an every increasing count of unreferenced articles or beginning to enforce the policy? Jeepday ( talk) 03:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
“ | Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed..... WP:V" | ” |
How do you challenge unreferenced info? Is adding a fact tag considered a challenge? -- Kaypoh 12:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to say that the number one problem with the backlog of articles tagged {{ unreferenced}} is not a lack of sources but the fact that no one is bold enough to remove the tag. Most still need referencing work but even this article was left tagged. The unreferenced problem is not as big as the backlog-- BirgitteSB 13:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Sourcing other people's edits is good, but it is not always easy, and sometimes it's hardly possible without rewriting the text as well. But to the point - I don't understand if Jeepday's idea is to prevent the addition of new unreferenced articles, or to prevent the addition of any unsourced info in general. The second problem is inevitable. As for the first one, I didn't think it was tolerated in the first place. Or is it? -- Anonymous44 18:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree that new editors should be encouraged. Fortunately, the welcome template includes the five pillars of wikipedia, and the five pillars include the core policies. The editing window also contains references to the policies. I must admit the references could have been more noticeable, and then maybe less reverts would have been needed.
Now, about Tukaram: it was originally started as a stub by an anon in 2004, and it was developed long before "the current push for sources", as someone put it. Nowadays, only registered users can create articles. The meaning of my question about "tolerating" was - if a registered user (as such, he should be acquainted with the core policies) writes a whole new article without indicating his sources, won't someone contact him on his talk page and kindly remind him to provide them? I think such a routine would be helpful. -- Anonymous44 22:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
This discusion is continued at Wikipedia talk:Requests for verification
Kim van der Linde wrote:
Jimbo Wales wrote:
Go for it!
--Jimbo [1]
Oskar Sigvardsson wrote:
Jimbo Wales wrote:
In general, I find the {{fact}} tagging to be overdone in Wikipedia. A better option is to nuke the unsourced material. Sometimes {{fact}} is warranted, I don't mean that it is always a bad idea. But it is overdone.
I very often see completely preposterous claims tagged with {{fact}}, usually because an editor is being excessively cautious. Be bold. :)
--Jimbo [2]
We have a policy WP:V#Burden of evidence that says the burden of providing reference is on the editor who adds material. We have policy WP:OR that says anything that has not been published before should not be on Wikipedia. We have the founder of Wikipedia telling us to remove unreferenced material. We have a bold statement in the directions for adding new articles that all "Articles that do not cite reliable published sources are likely to be deleted.". And we have a some editors (who also happen to be administrators) arguing not to delete unreferenced content but not offering any policy to support this position. So I ask you again should we at Wikipedia use a template based on the Wikitionary {{rfv}} (see above) on unrefrenced articles started after January 1, 2007? It would appear to be completley in keeping with Wikipedia policy and expectations. It would give articles 30 days instead of 5 to get it together (DGG) and it would provide a category so we could all go reference an article a day (jossi). I would ask that if you have objections to using a Wikipedia version of {{rfv}} that you cite a policy or guideline supporting your position. Jeepday ( talk) 03:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Just heard about this discussion via the mailing list and figured I should mention that if a policy is ever implemented putting some kind of deadline on deleting {{ fact}}-marked statements the first impact that will have on me is that I will never again mark anything with the {{ fact}} template. I use that template to request citations, not to mark statements for deletion. If I want to delete a statement I just do it. Bryan Derksen 04:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
This discusion is continued at Wikipedia talk:Requests for verification
We have a proposal that is supported by some and not by others and is keeping with Wikipedia policy and expectations. It has been pointed out that topic "has been discussed to death,". We can continue to talk about it or we can do something about it. The process that this suggestion is based on is at Wiktionary:Wiktionary:Requests for verification. I would like to suggest that we consider how this could be implemented in Wikipedia to best advantage.
A couple of thoughts on process and approach
Signed Jeepday ( talk) 14:07, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
It has been suggested that this entry might not meet Wiktionary's criteria for inclusion. If evidence is not provided, the disputed information may be considered for possible removal. " Gentle. no ultimatums. But the necessary stimulus to activity is still there. DGG ( talk) 04:43, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
This discusion is continued at Wikipedia talk:Requests for verification
It seems on one of the pages I'm working on that there is a misunderstanding of what "third-party" means in the context of WP:V. Does it mean "third as in not Wikipedia and not the editor" or "third as in not wikipedia, not the editor, and not the person/place/thing being talked about" or does it mean something different?
In the article in question, there is a claim that using a direct quote from a courts published opinion on an official government court website would violate both WP:V and WP:NOR. Many thanks for any clarification. Arthurrh 23:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I think I see. So if the article is ABOUT the person, then it needs to be third-party to them, insofar as possible. So then for example, in an article about a civil right, would a court opinion discussing a case relating to that right be considered a reliable source, as in "The xx circuit court said in 2005 "comments directly quoted from court published opinion". Thanks again. Arthurrh 00:40, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Although most articles should rely predominantly on secondary sources, there are rare occasions when they may rely on primary sources (for example, legal cases).
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I would just like to say how infuriating the ambiguity of this policy is in the degree to which editors can misinterpret the reasoning behind it. "Reliable, third-party sources with a reputation for fact-checking" is obviously meant to be a requirement for controversial claims which are surprising or significant. Less controversial claims, such as the notability or even the existence of a website, can be reasonably verified with LESS reliable sources such as forums or blogs (especially because it's something the reader can verify by exploring the site in question him or herself). This is not a complex concept. I believe that WP:V and/or WP:AS need to be rewritten to emphasise what does require "reliable" sources and what kind of claims can be supported with less reliable sources such as blogs or focused websites with a dedication towards the topic and no reason for bias. (Example, using a pokemon website to support claims made about events in the game/series is acceptable, even tho that website would not be said to have any kind of of independent review i.e. not "reliable" in the traditional sense.) Please make this clear in these editorial policies. I apologize if my comment has gone in the wrong place, please move it if there is a more appropriate location for it. 74.61.41.118 14:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Edit: yeah, it really looks like this went in the wrong place... sorry. But I just wanted to add, trying to reference the section in WP:V about using the source as a reference in an article about itself is met with the claim that there must be additional sources that are third-party in order to meet the WP:V criteria. This is independent of notability, which should be able to be established from "unreliable" sources like blogs or even just casual news articles in the mainstream media or even implied by the accurate description of the website itself (example: talking about the first novel to be written collaboratively using a wiki, regardless of whether or not it is mentioned in traditional media). Trying to argue about the details of a policy is unproductive and should not be what Wikipedia is about; please make this policy more clear! 74.61.41.118 15:05, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Verifiability seems to concern not only whether information has been published by reliable, third-party sources but also whether the sources are readily available to Wikipedia editors. But I think the latter aspect of verifiability isn't sufficiently covered in the current policy document.
Verification is simple and easy if the source is an article that appeared in some major journal or a book that is readily available in your local library. You just need to go to the library, get a hold of a copy of it, and read it to see if it's consistent with what's written on the Wikipedia article. If the source is available online, verification is still easier. There is no question about the validity of this standard kind of verification.
But what about other kinds of information source, especially non-print ones, that aren't readily available? TV news reports, for example, should be as much reliable as reports on newspaper. But obtaining video tape recording of daily TV news programs isn't so easy. How do you verify this kind of information source? It's possible that someone might have happened to record the program on his VCR at home. But it's verifiable only for himself. Or you may call, email, or write a letter to the TV station to inquire about the news program, but in this way you cannot watch the program for yourself. Does this still constitute valid verification?
Webpages are probably the most easily verifiable source of information. But not all of them last forever on the internet, and once they are gone, there is no way to verify them unless some other websites like archive.org have archived them. Also validity becomes questionable if the archiving was done by some minor no-name site.
Either way, I think there should be a section or a subpage on methods of verification, i.e., how exactly you verify the source of information (go to library, purchase, telephon inquiry, etc), what exactly constitutes valid verification (do you have to read/watch a copy of the source yourself, or can you confirm reference by inquiring the author directly), and how easily avairable a source should be. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 04:06, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
While a free complete web version of a source is always nice, the standard for what constitutes a proper citation is the same today as it was in 1950. If it gives enough detail for a reader to go to a major metropolitan or university library (or a special collection or museum, for the truly rare) and verify the source, it's valid. As far as trust goes, I think that any editor who is discovered to be committing fraud regarding such sourcing should be dealt with harshly, and with extreme prejudice. - Crockspot 23:23, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I was tightening up the wording in the section on self-published sources in articles about themselves in WP:ATT so that it matched what was here in WP:V, and I noticed an extra criteria, which was along the lines of "that the article is not primarily based on such sources". (See last criteria in left pane of this diff). This sounds like a reasonable restriction, and I would have added it here but for the prot. Can we get some consensus to add this into WP:V, and have an admin add it? - Crockspot 17:15, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I've unprotected once again. Everyone involved in the last edit war is an established user, so I shouldn't have to do the be bold, then revert, and then stop editing and talk speech, but I'm not sure anyone listened last time, so that was a brief recap. Briefly, don't edit war. No-one likes the fact that something may be in a policy that shouldn't be there, so that's why we ask that people discuss changes here on the talk page first. Anyway, best of luck with it, and remember, don't edit war. It's disruptive, and can lead to blocks. Hiding Talk 13:25, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
If you lot don't stop reverting each other, I am going to protect it again. Viridae Talk 00:20, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I have a strong objection to this being added to the article. I reverted, was reverted, and the reverter was reverted. I saw no discussion of this above, and I would guess that consensus would be against this addition. There are statements that contradict the source that is cited, and conflict with the previous paragraph. There was a similar change attempted to WP:BLP yesterday, which was de-fanged and watered down in a compromise that caused no actual shift of burden, or weakening of the policy. The same arguments apply here. - Crockspot 00:28, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I added that piece because some editors are citing this guideline when not only removing sections of articles that are currently unsourced without first requesting citations (which, btw is a very large number of articles), they are also removing sourced content which they do not feel is adequately sourced without first giving reasonable time for additional citations to be given. My personal experience involves a diagram (which currently sources five different published sources) which has not only been in the psychoactive drug article for the past two years, but has also received numerous accolades including one from the Florida Office of Drug Policy requesting a more printer-friendly version. I have become seriously dissuaded from contributing, and I know that others are as well. After a few years of contributing to many drug related articles, (as well as financially to the Wikimedia foundation), and also encouraging others to contribute, I am starting to feel like I have been wasting time better spent elsewhere. -- Thoric 20:21, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone point to a consensus or guideline regarding the accuracy/verifiability of IMDB biographical information cited as a source? Having a WP:BLP problem with actress' date of birth on Minka (porn star) (the article subject is complaining). Videmus Omnia Talk 15:18, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia_talk:Lead_section#Lead_citation raises the question: must an article's lead contain citations, or is it OK to have the lead summarize the body, with all citations in the body? This topic comes up over and over again, and one can easily find high quality examples either way; for example Johannes Kepler has inline citations in the header but Climate of India defers all inline citations to the body. (Both of these examples are recent Featured Articles.)
My feeling is that WP:V allows the lead to summarize the body, deferring detailed citations to the body. But SlimVirgin feels strongly that articles like Climate of India do not conform to WP:V, and SlimVirgin has removed all my attempts to modify WP:LEAD to address the question. What's the consensus here? Does this issue require any changes to WP:V for clarification? Eubulides 06:12, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
With regard to the point raised above, I have noticed an increasing tendency in the last year for people to scrap or delete material on their own, often subjective, judgement that it is "unsourced". It is fine to put the onus on contributors to cite their sources, but I'm afraid that Verifiability is starting to take on the characteristics of a stick that you can use to beat anyone you want.
Someone recently deleted a section that I wrote a long time ago at the article on Li Bai. The section read:
I am the first one to admit that it was not a well-written paragraph and could confuse readers. I originally added the detailed note because there appeared to be a misconception among some contributors that Li Po was somehow "incorrect" and should be as far as possible expunged from Wikipedia.
What troubles me is that the person deleting this information gave the following edit summary as a reason for removing it: "The name section was probably unncessary; most importantly it was unreferenced, probably gave more confusion to readers. Remove it as of now."
The information in question came from Chinese dictionaries of various descriptions. It's true that I gave no references, but anyone with some familiarity with the Chinese language could find that information if they wanted to. I find the use of the "unreferenced" argument to delete or question anything the editor himself has never heard of a troubling phenomenon. In fact, if this criterion were to be scrupulously adhered to, a large percentage of Wikipedia would disappear overnight. How can contributors be expected to source every single statement that appears in Wikipedia? Even referencing is no guarantee that a statement is correct. Contributors could easily distort referenced sources or use them to advance highly POV arguments. It seems to me (this is my own subjective judgement) that a lot of people are simply using the "unsourced" argument to delete material that they don't like.
In the case I cite above, the explanation of Li Po's traditional name could have been moved elsewhere, away from the head of the article, or it could have been rewritten to make it less obtrusive. But someone decided that it was "unreferenced", and therefore deletable without the need for further debate.
Verifiability, like the POV and OR criteria, needs to be used judiciously. Taking Verifiability and OR to their logical extremes, Wikipedia would be best served by wholesale plagiarism from other sources, preferably on the Internet -- totally verifiable and definitely not original research!
Bathrobe 06:40, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, we all know there are some concerns about the procedures and specifics for whether and when contributors may remove unreferenced content. Here is a request. If you are going to attempt to modify this policy to clarify these concerns, DO NOT just add your clarification to the "This page in a nutshell" section. Recently, a contributor added a clause to the "nutshell" summary that was not even touched upon in the terms of the policy itself. If a reader wanted to make a good-faith effort to reconcile the "summary" with specific language in the policy, they would have come up empty-handed.
The "nutshell" summary is just that, a summary; not a separate document and not a place to patch perceived "holes" in the terms of the policy itself. If it's not already clearly indicated in the terms of the policy, then please don't add it to the summary. Thanks. dr.ef.tymac 14:01, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
In this edit (now moved here to talk to establish consensus) the summary reads:
![]() | This page in a nutshell: Articles should only contain material that has been published by reliable sources. Editors adding or restoring material that has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, or any quotations, must provide a reliable published source, or the material may be removed at an appropriate time. |
and the Burden of evidence section reads:
Is this what we wish the policy to say? WAS 4.250 16:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
We could use ""in due course" instead of "at an appropriate time" and other changes to the exact words would also be ok. The point is that this talk pages proves there are new people who read the currebt wording and conclude policy says they can immediate remove unsourced content and this talk page also proves there is a consensus that my edit to this policy does accurately reflect current policy. Using the talk page to discuss every minor rewording is not how policy pages are edited, so I guess some people see this as not minor and not consensus. I can buy it not being minor. But it does seem to me to be consensus. We don't vote on consensus you know. Or do we? WAS 4.250 16:40, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion days of editing this talk page by many people have demonstrated the consensus needed for the substance of what I added and revising the exact wording can be done wiki stye without elaborate talk; so unless an established editor of this policy like slimvirgin or jossi say there is a lack of consensus for the substance of my edit I will add back the edit tomorrow. WAS 4.250 17:05, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
(<--)You say "appropriate time" adds nothing. That is not true. It makes clear that "immediate" is not to be assumed. You say that this phrase needs to be further specified to give help to people to know when the appropriate time is. My edit did that. It adds "Any edit lacking a source may be removed at an appropriate time. Stable older material added before citing was common on Wikipedia should be provided with references rather than removed, but eventually all significant claims must either be sourced or removed. For material recently added, the contributor may object if you remove their contribution without giving them a chance to provide references." and "The question of when to delete a claim is a matter of editorial judgement, so use the opinions of editors that are repected for their editorial judgement. For example, be careful not to go too far on the side of leaving unsourced information in articles for too long, or at all in the case of information about living people. Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia, has said of this: "I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons." Did you not read it? Are you trolling me?? Or is your position that one musyt provide a nonsubjective specific algorithm or nothing? You are not making sense. Either you are trolling or you haven't even read whar you are objecting to. WAS 4.250 12:15, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Either you are trolling or you haven't even read whar [sic] you are objecting to
It makes clear that "immediate" is not to be assumed.
poorly sourced contentious material ... about living persons ... should be removed immediately and without discussion (emphasis in original)
You say that (appropriate time) needs to be further specified
Are you trolling me?
≈ jossi ≈ had already added a proposed clarification, which I reverted, but agreed was worth supporting, though it seemed it just needed more input. I still stand by this, and support ≈ jossi ≈'s original proposal ... this horse has been beat to death, and other (less helpful) "clarifications" seem to be just muddying up the issue. dr.ef.tymac 00:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Can the editors watching this talk page tell me whether I'm correctly interpreting the relationship between Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not? The former says "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth", while the latter says "merely being true or informative does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia". My interpretation of this is:
"Wikipedia's verifiability policy is not saying that anything with reliable sources should be in Wikipedia. It is saying that anything in Wikipedia must have reliable sources. In addition to this, our "What Wikipedia is not" policy is one of the policies that keeps unencyclopedic material out. Verifiability alone is not enough to keep unencyclopedic material out of Wikipedia."
Is this interpretation correct? I ask because I fear that it is too easy for people to misinterpret "the threshold for inclusion is verifiability" as "the only threshold for inclusion is verifiability", and from that to conclude that anything verifiable can be included, which is obviously wrong. Is there any possibility that the text here could be edited to make it clearer that this is not what is meant? Carcharoth 21:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Please see: Wikipedia:Requests for verification
A proposal designed as a process similar to {{ prod}} to delete articles without sources if no sources are provided in 30 days.
It reads:
Some editors see this as necessary to improve Wikipedia as a whole and assert that this idea is supported by policy, and others see this as a negative thing for the project with the potential of loss of articles that could be easily sourced.
I would encourage your comments in that page's talk or Mailing list thread on this proposal WikiEN-l: Proposed "prod" for articles with no sources
Signed Jeepday ( talk) 13:58, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
The following is a quick outline of issues related to recent changes to this policy:
I intend to modify the policy text associated with the items listed here, unless someone else addresses these problems with either a satisfactory counter-proposal or direct corrections. Thanks. dr.ef.tymac 15:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
"The question of when to delete a claim is a matter of editorial judgement, so please consider other opinions and common conduct. Be prepared for disagreement. Remember to be bold, revert (or allow reversion) and discuss. While delays and discussion are sometimes appropriate, remember not to leave..."
Will someone please add in due course once to the summary and once to the body? WAS 4.250 17:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Alternate proposal: M. H. and SamBC have suggested what seems like the only rational course for resolving this perpetual-motion round-robin of abortive clarifications on "appropriate timing", "due course", "due process" or whatever else you want to call it.
I propose these issues be addressed in an Essay that gets linked from the policy text with a footnote, indicating there are differing views on how this should be handled. This kind of resolution has been done before on core policy pages (See e.g., Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Article_structure). If a pre-existing essay is not already out there, whoever wants to can take leadership on putting it together. If the essay takes sufficient shape, it can be proposed as a guideline.
Thoughts? dr.ef.tymac 17:11, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
There is a huge discussion on Talk:Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows about whether or not to insert a plot summary of the book based upon leaked copies readily available on the Internet. Although some people make arguments about respecting the wishes of the author and the publisher, many understand that Wikipedia is not censored and those wishes should not dominate the decision.
However, the grounds on which we are currently opposing inclusion of any material based on leaks is verifiability. There are reportedly 1200 copies of the book which have been leaked. One editor claims that this is sufficient to establish verifiability i.e. if someone says X, someone else who has a copy of the book can say "Nay, not true". Several editors have opposed this view saying "Verifiability means that, at least in theory, anyone can eventually get a copy of the book and verify the truth of an assertion themselves. Might take time, might be difficult but, at the end of the day, it has to be possible.
The project page does not explicitly support this interpretation although I believe it is the logical conclusion based upon the spirit of verifiability.
I propose that we expand this page to make it more clear how verifiability applies to leaked information and other information which is available on a limited basis.
-- Richard 17:27, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
We say "verifiable" but a more precise wording is "attribute-able". SlimVirgin got that right. Likewise, this incident points out that when we say "published" we are really talking about "distributed" or "accessable". WAS 4.250 17:47, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Maybe I'll start saying Claims must be attributable to reliable accessable sources ? WAS 4.250 17:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
If an article from a reliable source (newspaper or magazine) has been re-printed online in its entirety on someone's personal web page, is it better to simply refer to the print article (with date and volume) or to provide a link to the republished article on the personal website? Thanks - TheMightyQuill 17:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Currently the policy says:
But this is not necessarily true, for example paragraph 45 of the ECHR "Jorgic v. Germany" (Application no. 74613/01) presents a summary of the ICJ position on ethnic cleansing in the "Bosnia and Herzegovina v. Serbia and Montenegro" case that is at least as reliable as academic and peer-reviewed publications. So other court cases can be as good (or better) than peer-reviewed publications in the area of international law, because as is pointed out in the next sentence "the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues" and a ruling by the ECHR or similar has far greater fact checking (and balanced POV) than any "academic or peer-reviewed publication". -- Philip Baird Shearer 18:23, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
The next paragraph says:
Given that judicial reviews (such as the ECHR case mentioned above) are at least as good or better than "peer-reviewed publications" and there are other types of publications by public bodies that are at least as good or better than "peer-reviewed publications" (e.g. The Blue Book or the OECD Factbook) that can be covered by the word usually, the next sentence can be open to misinterpretation because court transcripts, and other government publications (including those by international bodies such as the UN and the EU), are not in "mainstream publications". -- Philip Baird Shearer 07:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; government inquiries; judicial reviews; and mainstream newspapers. As a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work, the more reliable it is.
Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued, as are judicial reviews and government inquiries, and are usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available. Material from other reliable sources may also be used in these areas, particularly if they are respected mainstream publications. The appropriateness of any source always depends on the context. Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text.
A link was added as a seealso to Wikipedia:Verifiability/Removal of Uncited Material. I've removed it due to several concerns.
I'm all for getting more discussion and contribution to the essay (which I've not been able to work on for a few days, at least, but was about to return to), but this is not served by a spurious link from a policy page, nor by forking the page. SamBC 16:45, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I just want to say that the points covered in this essay need to be integrated into Wikipedia policy as soon as possible. The current policy is being used by people as justification for removal of (cited, by supposedly inadequately) content they disagree with. -- Thoric 17:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Okay, on balance, it seems that the alternate version should be deleted and the Userspace one moved. I moved the alternate version, but forgot that that didn't delete it, so it's tagged for speedy G6, could an admit delete it and I'll move the version from my userspace. This gives a clean, simple, unconfusing (relatively) edit history. SamBC 19:13, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I, and others, based on the edit history, think Jimbo's quote needs to be followed up with
This is not a unqualified license to remove all unsourced information one encounters, however, since it remains less antagonizing to other editors to add a "citation required" tag to their unsourced edits as opposed to simply reverting their edits, and the ideal practice is to try and locate supporting citations for the unsourced edits of others.
or something like that. Slimvirgin says that this is already covered off. No it isn't. Recognizing that other editors "may object" is not a recognition of how antagonizing it is to an editor to have almost every sentence or even every phrase written reverted on the grounds that it is unsourced (which is what happens is someone out there decides Wikipedia needs protection from the likes of you). In my experience the people who are hesitant to revert are the "good guys"; by which I mean people who are trying to accomodate the opinions of others, value their contributions, and build Wikipedia. The people that revert claiming "no source", and then revert again claiming "unreliable source", and then revert again claiming "undue weight", are the "bad guys"; people who can't tolerate the idea of a Wiki article reflecting anyone's opinion but their own. And leaving Jimbo Wales' comment to be the last word here is giving a big green light to those "bad guys". They are egged on enough by the quote as it is. Bdell555 06:21, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Any edit lacking attribution may be removed, and the burden of evidence lies with the editor wishing to add or retain the material. However, this policy should not be used to cause disruption by removing material for which reliable sources could easily be found — except in the case of contentious material about living persons, which must be removed immediately.
I think this discussion would be more productive with an example (note this example is not an active dispute). I was directed to this example some time ago from someone who came to this talk page complaining about this policy being used disruptively. I tried to help out, I did save some of the material, but I eventually found the task to difficult and moved on to other things. In this case the material had reference provided for it, but had not been done with citation style. There was no reason to believe the reference was given in bad faith or that the original contributor used it in a sloppy manner, however the dispute related to what qualified as "unsourced". The reference was not a common book, I was able to find a copy at a local Jesuit university. However it was an original edition, which means it was not the published English translation used by the original contributer, but the French version. I was able to verify much of the information to the limits of my French skills and time (I do not have check-out or computer privileges at this library), I am certain the rest could have been verified by someone with greater skill (or the copy of the book in English). This is the most solid example of disruption I have ever seen from this issue. However I do not know how much fault lays with this policy, or that the issue should be clarified here. However I think Talk:Marcel Lefebvre#Request for Comment shows that it is an issue that need some clarification somewhere.-- BirgitteSB 16:38, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
A good writer always researchs his or her subject first... then writes based on that research.
Whenever I see the word "always" or "never" in reference to editorial practice (within WP or anywhere else) ... red flags automatically go up and sirens start blaring and lights on the danger-meter start blinking.
This is especially troubling considering WP is a wide-open project that does not keep "score" of how many times a contributor wrongly challenges correct information. This means there is zero opportunity cost for attacking legitimate content. There is no "downside" if a contributor decides he is going to challenge every single sentence in an article that isn't substantiated with one or more inline citations, even when such insistence is bordering on pedantic or even downright disruptive.
Would it be alright for someone to challenge an edit to Vitamin C or Ascorbic Acid if the contributor happened to be someone like Linus Pauling? Should someone like that be required to have a stack of citations before adding a paragraph to an article? Even if you answer "yes, *always*" ... the problem is 'always' can easily be taken to ridiculous extremes.
I dislike unreferenced "crap" just as much as the next person, but if we consider Who actually writes Wikipedia, experienced and knowledgeable contributors should be hassled as little as possible, or they simply will not have any incentive to waste time "collaborating" here. dr.ef.tymac 17:44, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | → | Archive 25 |
I am being told by an admin, User:Jossi, that he can re-introduce challenged facts without providing a citation as long as the facts are "verifiable", as in can be verified. I moved the info to the talk page at Talk:List_of_Romanian_actors#Work_log for others to find citations for them. But he insists on keeping the uncited information in the article itself saying "Moving it to talk, simply removes any possibility from the occasional editor to come and add a source". My opinion is that moving it to talk prevents readers from reading potentially false information.
he says to me "You are misinterpreting WP:V". Is this true? Why doesn't the policy say this? Where have I gone wrong in interpreting this policy? Are uncited facts really allowed to stay even after being challenged because they are "verifiable"? I want to follow the rules here, but what are the rules? Until(1 == 2) 04:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
First, I didn't delete anything, I moved it to the talk page where things that need to meet inclusion standards belong. Secondly I found the first 19 references so don't imply that I never did any research. Third, removing unsourced information is an important contribution that stops Wikipedia from turning into a gossip mill. I would appreciate it if you did not diminish my contributions. And finally, {{ fact}} tags are not a requirement before removing unsourced data. I gave plenty of notice on the talk page before during and after. Everything I removed I re-posted on the talk page to be addressed. I am not just tossing stuff out. But now we are just repeating ourselves, I am interested in others opinions on this matter. Until(1 == 2) 04:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Sourcing is new to wikipedia. Articles written for wikipedia in the early years were typically not sourced. There remain many thousands of excellent article in wikipedia from those years that remain to be properly sourced. Do not delete any data from wikipedia that you believe to be both true and not harmful regardless of whether or not it is sourced. Sourcing is an improvement and only a requrement if someone honestly believes it is either false or harmful (per WP:BLP or WP:LIBEL for example). The reqirement is that it is capable of being sourced. It only fails this requirement if people actually look online and in libraries for a source and can't find one. It does not fail this requirement just because a question on a talk page goes unanswered. WAS 4.250 12:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I have come to the conclusion that the wording of the current policy is not in line with the community consensus on how WP:V should be interpreted. So I am proposing the following changes/additions:
Please let me know you opinion on each change suggested. Until(1 == 2) 15:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
First, my opinion on these changes is that it is better as it is now. However, I would rather have a policy that the community agrees to and that can be followed without people getting angry at me. I will gladly accept consensus in this matter however my personal opinion is that these changes are misguided.
In regards to #1, pretty much all information is "capable of being sourced", I suppose consensus can determine this on a case by case basis. Re: #2 This seem reasonable if specific criteria are made available to the person doing the cleanup. Re: #3, it seems rather contrary to have people being forced to research other people's claims, but if the community agrees this is the duty of the person removing the content then I will accept this. Re: #4, this may be reasonable, but it also needs to be more clearly defined.
I am attempting to sincerely represent the opinions of the community in this matter, if you feel I have misinterpreted things please feel free to re-draft any of these additions. But what cannot continue is the policy saying one thing, then the community getting all upset with me when I follow it. Lets get the policy in line with consensus here, or there will be unnecessary conflict and interruptions to important encyclopedic editing. Until(1 == 2) 15:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
This current policy does not leave it up to judgment, it clearly puts the burden on the person seeking to add the information. Perhaps you can draft a change that allows consensus to override the burden of proof? I guess point #1 can cover that, thus making point #3 redundant if consensus determines it "capable of being sourced" Until(1 == 2) 16:06, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
See
WP:ATT where this is discussed as follows:
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:13, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
If you think the policy is fine as it is now, then I expect you to follow it and not return unsourced content after it has been challenged. Even when I removed 4 names that had no citations or even wikilinks you revert me [1], I know you found citations, but why did you have to criticize and revert my removal, instead of just citing them before re-adding? WAS(and just now you) described a policy where that is not allowed. Perhaps you can draft a proposed addition that settles this? Until(1 == 2) 16:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I think "Unsourced information may be re-added despite being challenged by an editor if consensus determines that the information is capable of being sourced" (option number one above) descibes current practice and consensus for what current practice should be. Adding it to the policy page would help with cases where peope go around deleting stuff the rest of us agree should be sourced eventually and not deleted. I think we should add it to the policy page. WAS 4.250 16:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I think the starting point has to be there are no rules. Unfortunately, there are a wide variety of people out there who want to do things that aren't going to end up with producing a good quality article, therefore it is useful to have guidelines. Like any contract, they are best not used, and in business if you are reading the contract then things have already gone too far wrong. At the moment, there is something amiss with the spirit of editing: many of us grumpy folk here are here because we got Wiki-Lawyered and came to defend our position in the face of irreconcilable differences. I'm of a view that strengthening the rules undermines the guiding principles and things need to be clearer, but looser.
There is an interesting similarity with a problem that Formula 1 has on aerodynamic parts. The rule is 'no moving parts' however teams made bendy bits that accidentally moved in a favourable way under pressure at speed, so F1 added rules to say no bendy bits and must not bend under x amount of pressure. What they then found was that people built parts that bent to the test tolerance. So they adjusted the rules to say no bendy bits, the test is so and so, but the principle is still no bendy bits so if we think you are building bendy bits we reserve the right to change the rules to protect the spirit. I think this is a phase we are seeing the rules going through here: in seeking to sort out the guidelines, we are losing the spirit which is avoid rules where possible if it gets us to a good result. Spenny 16:33, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
The wording "any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged" does not cover the situation where somebody chooses to challenge otherwise uncontroversial material in order to prove a point. However, we can cover that situation ourselves by applying common sense. Tim Vickers 16:40, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
This is not needed. With all due respect to Until(1 == 2), this entire proposal seems unproductive and unhelpful (See e.g., WP:BURO WP:CREEP, as well as other reasons already mentioned above). The fact that it appears to have been motivated by a specific (and apparently still-pending) content dispute suggests Wikipedia:Taking it outside would have been more appropriate.
There are many mature WP contributors who are quite capable and very familiar with what does and does not contribute to article improvement. Spoon-feeding them with step-by-step edicts and rote formulaic recipes is not going to help. The experienced contributors already know these steps and apply them as appropriate; because they work, not because they are legislated from on-high.
What's worse, less mature contributors are not even going to bother with these recipes, except when they can be used against someone else. What's even worse, is that you appear to be saying nothing more than: "cites count, but so does consensus" ... Wikipedia:Consensus (et. al.) already cover that.
If you really feel strongly about your viewpoint, create an essay ( Category:Wikipedia essays) just like everyone else who has a personal viewpoint to share and promote. If it gains traction there will be enough "consensus" to elevate it to policy status anyway. Changes to policy should not be considered the first choice for resolving recent or pending content disputes. dr.ef.tymac 17:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not convinced these rules need to be written. The first is obvious from the fact that while this page says information may be challenged & removed if it isn't sourced, it doesn't say it must always be sourced. The second is a fairly obvious corollary of WP:CIVIL -- people get upset if content they're working on is arbitrarily deleted without warning, and we should strive not to upset other editors. The third is merely a good suggestion but I wouldn't want it anywhere near policy, because it would stop us from dealing with content that we knew was wrong efficiently. The fourth I don't think is even a good idea. If an unreferenced tag or large numbers of fact tags have been on an article for a long time, or if it is negative BLP, then it always appropriate to remove uncited information, however much of it there is. Even if there is consensus for any of these, it's more of a guideline issue than a policy one, so here isn't the right place for it. JulesH 18:28, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
So, here's the thing... I don't agree with Until's method of conducting this debate - I can assume enough good faith to assume that he didn't create a straw man deliberately, but that's what the original proposal seems to be. However, I do think that there's a genuine concern here: there are ways that I have seen that popular practice (and, by implication, consensus) deviates from the policy/guidelines that I've seen, at least within sub-groups and topic areas. New users do read policy and guidelines and try to apply them, in good faith, and it is frustrating when it turns out that what the handy documents tell us, or seem to tell us, isn't what people expect, and they in fact get quite annoyed. I think what's happening here is that a user has sought clarification, and then suggested that that clarification ought to be in the documents new users tend to read. SamBC 18:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I thought I kind of liked this project, but that was because I had read its rules. Now I see that, in a blatant case such as this, pretty much every experienced contributor around here takes a side against these rules, or at least shamelessly reproaches those who advocate them, or at best pretends to ignore the nature of the conflict altogether. Obviously, what seemed good in the rules was mostly the result of an accident, and so was my liking it. The rules were an illusion, and the reality is the behaviour that I see here.-- Anonymous44 20:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
The problem can be illustrated by clicking on "random article" a few times. I just did and got Jan z Tarnowa. It has no external links or references or tags warning of lack of references. It was created in 2005 before the current push for sources. Wikipedia is not helped by deleting that article, unless someone does a good check and finds no sources. On the other hand if someone just now added it, it would be ok to demand sources as the burden lies on them. Perhaps we need to say that this policy is different regarding older articles. Grandfathered in? WAS 4.250 20:46, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
WAS 4.250's example, the article on Jan z Tarnowa is a good case study. WAS found it using random article, and found that no sources were included. Great. How long it takes to find a reference? I found hundreds of sources on the first five minutes, unfortunately the sources are all in Polish. If I am interested in building an encyclopedia, I would contact a Wikipedian that speaks the language ( Category:User_pl) and ask for assistance. If I am interested in following the rules, I would mark as {{ unreferenced}} and come back two weeks later to delete the material and ask for a speedy deletion. That is the difference between applying the rules for rule's sake, and building an encyclopedia. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
We should add that randomly deleting unreferenced information is considered disruptive. A real life friend read this policy and tried to do that. He was blocked. -- Kaypoh 06:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I am glad this conflict led to a better set of articles ... This seems to sum it up quite well. Disputes arise from time to time, but if the parties involved can agree to a mutually-acceptable outcome that unquestionably improves WP content, then it's a definite win/win scenario.
Another win/win scenario would be if any further comments or discussion on this matter could be moved to the relevant Essay and User talk pages. Thanks to all involved for your consideration. Regards. dr.ef.tymac 15:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
There is no need to change policy as expressed abundantly already in this talk page. If material is verifiable, then verify it by looking for a source. If you cannot find a source, tag it as {{ fact}}, and give others a chance to look for sources. Unless, of course, it is a BLP in which case you delete on-sight. It is all in policy and guidelines. Now, lets move on to help build the encyclopedia. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I hate to belabor a topic that seems to have been settled, but I have one further thought about the discussions above, as they relate to the line:
"Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed."
I think the word "may" could be the problem. On one hand it can be read as a warning to editors who are writing articles - that any unsourced material they add "might" be removed. On the other hand it can be read as giving permission to editors who are reviewing articles - that they "are allowed" to remove unsourced material. Given that the rest of the sentence is addressed to the editors doing the writing, I have always assumed that it was intended as a warning... but it is obvious from the discussion above that others see it as granting permission (or even granting a mandate) to delete. So what is the intent?
If the intent is a warning, I would suggest changing the word "may" to "might"... as it would make the intent clearer. If the intent is to grant permission, then I think we need a clear pointer to a guideline that tells editors when they should do so. Blueboar 16:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I tried this which was promptly reverted. Does that wording helps or makes this more confusing? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:27, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
(<---)That's a wonderful suggestion SlimVirgin. To Colin: What kind of encyclopedia do you envision will be written by policies that do not require people making desicions about articles to have knowledge of the subject? WAS 4.250 13:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Are you intending to alter the meaning of this, or do you simply not notice what difference your editing would make? If the former, are you aware of the implications? SlimVirgin (talk) (contribs) 23:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Although consensus was apparently reached here, now more editors are involved, we may get a broader range of opinion. The current "Wrong version" wording is:
Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science. Material from reliable non-academic sources is also welcome in these areas, particularly if they are respected mainstream publications. The appropriateness of any source always depends on the context. Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text.
I can live with omitting "with good reputations for accuracy" as this can be argued to be redundant with "reliable". The "attribution" statement is OK and although saying sources are "welcome" seems to the gilding the lily, this doesn't alter the main meaning of the paragraph for me. This version, if not ideal, therefore seems OK with me. Does this version deal with any NPOV concerns? Tim Vickers 00:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm willing to work towards consensus on the talk page. If you think wider input would be a good idea, do people recommend listing this discussion at the village pump or RfC/policy? On the proposal, SlimVirgin, are you unhappy with any statement that one source is more reliable than another? Is your position that reliability is binary and something is either reliable or not, and that you can't state that something is more likely to be reliable than something else? Tim Vickers 00:24, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
No, but discussion can move us forwards. This paragraph does not define reliability, instead it offers guidance on where reliable sources are most likely to be found. Neither does it say that academic sources are "always better" in any subject area, indeed it specifically notes that appropriateness depends on context. Since this compromise version therefore deals with all your concerns, do you find it acceptable? Tim Vickers 00:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Observation and comment: Although I am reluctant to interject here, there are a few points that seem very disconcerting regarding the history and development of this proposal:
Examples of 2b include:
Since there are plenty of substantive, logical, and internally consistent reasons to take issue with this proposal, the apparently gratuitous and somewhat contradictory "contributor evaluation" that has been repeatedly offered here seems beyond the point and outside the scope of this discussion page. Either "deep community-wide feedback" is welcome and necessary, or it isn't. Let's be blunt: the more participation we get, the easier it is get side-tracked by how "previously uninvolved" the participants are. Classic catch-22.
There may indeed be some users who are unfamiliar with the issues, the primary "stakeholders" and relevant historical development of WP policy. There may indeed be "policy dabbler" contributors who need to do their homework before their efforts can be taken seriously. I respectfully suggest to you that, at least for the purposes of this proposal, the contributor who forwarded it is not one of them. I base this solely on what I believe to be an impartial and informed evaluation of relevant contributions made on WP policy pages, policy talk pages, and user talk pages. I don't know any of you personally.
I assure you, there are some quite well-informed people out here who are not WP admins, who do not have stratospheric edit counts, and who (nevertheless) do not meet the definition of "uninformed policy dabblers" ... you don't have to a page in order to review its history and the contributions of its core participants. Yes, some of us have in fact done some homework. Even if that number is relatively small, WP policy is not well-served by incorrectly painting all "non-entrenched" participants with the same broad stroke.
If we truly believe in evaluating contributions independently of the contributors, then let's do that. More "2a", and less "2b" seems called for. dr.ef.tymac 01:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The current version as a compromise wording is a value judgment that does not belong in the verifiability policy. Above I posted Value judgments as to which of two or more sources meeting WP:RS is better for the article should be based on Good article criteria and Featured article criteria. Using WP:V to as a basis for deciding such value judgments is instruction creep.. The response was that it was a circular reference. Let me see if I can make my point clearer. Item 2 of What is a good article? addresses this verifiable policy. A newspaper and a scholarly work can be a WP:RS for an article so that both comply with What is a good article? Item 2. The issues regarding adding newspaper content to an article arises under What is a good article? Item 3. What is a good article? Item 3 states:
It is broad in its coverage. In this respect, it:(a) addresses the major aspects of the topic; and (b) stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary details.
What is a good article? Item 3 has nothing to do with this verifiability policy. If you think your WP:RS newspaper content is going to get into an article that address scholarly material by modifying this verifiability policy, you are wrong. If you think modifying this verifiability policy is going to keep WP:RS newspaper content out of articles that address scholarly material, you are wrong. What is a good article? Item 3 addresses what content should go into an article. -- Jreferee ( Talk) 05:51, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand what "deep change" people are talking about. For a long time, WP:ATTR had said that "In general, the most reliable sources are books and journals published by universities; mainstream newspapers; and university level textbooks, magazines and journals that are published by known publishing houses." This is defining reliability, which SlimVirgin says we shouldn't do, and while it is not explicitly priotitizing academia, it certainly tends to point in that direction. As for consensus - I wonder just how many users should be involved, and just who determines the quota. -- Anonymous44 14:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The current version seems decent. However, I feel we need to integrate the undue weight clause of NPOV for dealing with specious references. In articles I have worked on related to conspiracy theories about 9/11, we sure aren't going to be adding misinformation referenced from books that been printed and sold but are obviously based on a fringe minority viewpoint and not supported by the known evidence. Having something in print is not sufficient rationale for referencing in even non scientific articles.-- MONGO 04:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
This discusion is continued at Wikipedia talk:Requests for verification
In the recent discussion involving User:Until(1 == 2) and the deletion of unreferenced content I noticed a trend. Many mature editors mentioned that historically Wikipedia did not require references. So it is appropriate to to provide warning and allow time for older articles and additions to be referenced. That is all well, good and reasonable. In the current time we have Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research and messages like "Articles that do not cite reliable published sources are likely to be deleted." when you open an edit screen to make a NEW ARTICLE. So I propose that is also reasonable to argue that any content or articles added since January 1, 2007 that are unreferenced are posted directly in violation of Wikipedia policy. In Wikitionary new unrefrenced articles are tagged with {{rfv}} which reads
As was brought to my attention about Wikipedia:Unreferenced articles it is clear that project will never get out of backlog. There are less people adding references then there are people adding unreferenced content. So as what is the desire of the community an every increasing count of unreferenced articles or beginning to enforce the policy? Jeepday ( talk) 03:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
“ | Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed..... WP:V" | ” |
How do you challenge unreferenced info? Is adding a fact tag considered a challenge? -- Kaypoh 12:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to say that the number one problem with the backlog of articles tagged {{ unreferenced}} is not a lack of sources but the fact that no one is bold enough to remove the tag. Most still need referencing work but even this article was left tagged. The unreferenced problem is not as big as the backlog-- BirgitteSB 13:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Sourcing other people's edits is good, but it is not always easy, and sometimes it's hardly possible without rewriting the text as well. But to the point - I don't understand if Jeepday's idea is to prevent the addition of new unreferenced articles, or to prevent the addition of any unsourced info in general. The second problem is inevitable. As for the first one, I didn't think it was tolerated in the first place. Or is it? -- Anonymous44 18:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree that new editors should be encouraged. Fortunately, the welcome template includes the five pillars of wikipedia, and the five pillars include the core policies. The editing window also contains references to the policies. I must admit the references could have been more noticeable, and then maybe less reverts would have been needed.
Now, about Tukaram: it was originally started as a stub by an anon in 2004, and it was developed long before "the current push for sources", as someone put it. Nowadays, only registered users can create articles. The meaning of my question about "tolerating" was - if a registered user (as such, he should be acquainted with the core policies) writes a whole new article without indicating his sources, won't someone contact him on his talk page and kindly remind him to provide them? I think such a routine would be helpful. -- Anonymous44 22:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
This discusion is continued at Wikipedia talk:Requests for verification
Kim van der Linde wrote:
Jimbo Wales wrote:
Go for it!
--Jimbo [1]
Oskar Sigvardsson wrote:
Jimbo Wales wrote:
In general, I find the {{fact}} tagging to be overdone in Wikipedia. A better option is to nuke the unsourced material. Sometimes {{fact}} is warranted, I don't mean that it is always a bad idea. But it is overdone.
I very often see completely preposterous claims tagged with {{fact}}, usually because an editor is being excessively cautious. Be bold. :)
--Jimbo [2]
We have a policy WP:V#Burden of evidence that says the burden of providing reference is on the editor who adds material. We have policy WP:OR that says anything that has not been published before should not be on Wikipedia. We have the founder of Wikipedia telling us to remove unreferenced material. We have a bold statement in the directions for adding new articles that all "Articles that do not cite reliable published sources are likely to be deleted.". And we have a some editors (who also happen to be administrators) arguing not to delete unreferenced content but not offering any policy to support this position. So I ask you again should we at Wikipedia use a template based on the Wikitionary {{rfv}} (see above) on unrefrenced articles started after January 1, 2007? It would appear to be completley in keeping with Wikipedia policy and expectations. It would give articles 30 days instead of 5 to get it together (DGG) and it would provide a category so we could all go reference an article a day (jossi). I would ask that if you have objections to using a Wikipedia version of {{rfv}} that you cite a policy or guideline supporting your position. Jeepday ( talk) 03:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Just heard about this discussion via the mailing list and figured I should mention that if a policy is ever implemented putting some kind of deadline on deleting {{ fact}}-marked statements the first impact that will have on me is that I will never again mark anything with the {{ fact}} template. I use that template to request citations, not to mark statements for deletion. If I want to delete a statement I just do it. Bryan Derksen 04:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
This discusion is continued at Wikipedia talk:Requests for verification
We have a proposal that is supported by some and not by others and is keeping with Wikipedia policy and expectations. It has been pointed out that topic "has been discussed to death,". We can continue to talk about it or we can do something about it. The process that this suggestion is based on is at Wiktionary:Wiktionary:Requests for verification. I would like to suggest that we consider how this could be implemented in Wikipedia to best advantage.
A couple of thoughts on process and approach
Signed Jeepday ( talk) 14:07, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
It has been suggested that this entry might not meet Wiktionary's criteria for inclusion. If evidence is not provided, the disputed information may be considered for possible removal. " Gentle. no ultimatums. But the necessary stimulus to activity is still there. DGG ( talk) 04:43, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
This discusion is continued at Wikipedia talk:Requests for verification
It seems on one of the pages I'm working on that there is a misunderstanding of what "third-party" means in the context of WP:V. Does it mean "third as in not Wikipedia and not the editor" or "third as in not wikipedia, not the editor, and not the person/place/thing being talked about" or does it mean something different?
In the article in question, there is a claim that using a direct quote from a courts published opinion on an official government court website would violate both WP:V and WP:NOR. Many thanks for any clarification. Arthurrh 23:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I think I see. So if the article is ABOUT the person, then it needs to be third-party to them, insofar as possible. So then for example, in an article about a civil right, would a court opinion discussing a case relating to that right be considered a reliable source, as in "The xx circuit court said in 2005 "comments directly quoted from court published opinion". Thanks again. Arthurrh 00:40, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Although most articles should rely predominantly on secondary sources, there are rare occasions when they may rely on primary sources (for example, legal cases).
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I would just like to say how infuriating the ambiguity of this policy is in the degree to which editors can misinterpret the reasoning behind it. "Reliable, third-party sources with a reputation for fact-checking" is obviously meant to be a requirement for controversial claims which are surprising or significant. Less controversial claims, such as the notability or even the existence of a website, can be reasonably verified with LESS reliable sources such as forums or blogs (especially because it's something the reader can verify by exploring the site in question him or herself). This is not a complex concept. I believe that WP:V and/or WP:AS need to be rewritten to emphasise what does require "reliable" sources and what kind of claims can be supported with less reliable sources such as blogs or focused websites with a dedication towards the topic and no reason for bias. (Example, using a pokemon website to support claims made about events in the game/series is acceptable, even tho that website would not be said to have any kind of of independent review i.e. not "reliable" in the traditional sense.) Please make this clear in these editorial policies. I apologize if my comment has gone in the wrong place, please move it if there is a more appropriate location for it. 74.61.41.118 14:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Edit: yeah, it really looks like this went in the wrong place... sorry. But I just wanted to add, trying to reference the section in WP:V about using the source as a reference in an article about itself is met with the claim that there must be additional sources that are third-party in order to meet the WP:V criteria. This is independent of notability, which should be able to be established from "unreliable" sources like blogs or even just casual news articles in the mainstream media or even implied by the accurate description of the website itself (example: talking about the first novel to be written collaboratively using a wiki, regardless of whether or not it is mentioned in traditional media). Trying to argue about the details of a policy is unproductive and should not be what Wikipedia is about; please make this policy more clear! 74.61.41.118 15:05, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Verifiability seems to concern not only whether information has been published by reliable, third-party sources but also whether the sources are readily available to Wikipedia editors. But I think the latter aspect of verifiability isn't sufficiently covered in the current policy document.
Verification is simple and easy if the source is an article that appeared in some major journal or a book that is readily available in your local library. You just need to go to the library, get a hold of a copy of it, and read it to see if it's consistent with what's written on the Wikipedia article. If the source is available online, verification is still easier. There is no question about the validity of this standard kind of verification.
But what about other kinds of information source, especially non-print ones, that aren't readily available? TV news reports, for example, should be as much reliable as reports on newspaper. But obtaining video tape recording of daily TV news programs isn't so easy. How do you verify this kind of information source? It's possible that someone might have happened to record the program on his VCR at home. But it's verifiable only for himself. Or you may call, email, or write a letter to the TV station to inquire about the news program, but in this way you cannot watch the program for yourself. Does this still constitute valid verification?
Webpages are probably the most easily verifiable source of information. But not all of them last forever on the internet, and once they are gone, there is no way to verify them unless some other websites like archive.org have archived them. Also validity becomes questionable if the archiving was done by some minor no-name site.
Either way, I think there should be a section or a subpage on methods of verification, i.e., how exactly you verify the source of information (go to library, purchase, telephon inquiry, etc), what exactly constitutes valid verification (do you have to read/watch a copy of the source yourself, or can you confirm reference by inquiring the author directly), and how easily avairable a source should be. Hermeneus ( user/ talk) 04:06, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
While a free complete web version of a source is always nice, the standard for what constitutes a proper citation is the same today as it was in 1950. If it gives enough detail for a reader to go to a major metropolitan or university library (or a special collection or museum, for the truly rare) and verify the source, it's valid. As far as trust goes, I think that any editor who is discovered to be committing fraud regarding such sourcing should be dealt with harshly, and with extreme prejudice. - Crockspot 23:23, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I was tightening up the wording in the section on self-published sources in articles about themselves in WP:ATT so that it matched what was here in WP:V, and I noticed an extra criteria, which was along the lines of "that the article is not primarily based on such sources". (See last criteria in left pane of this diff). This sounds like a reasonable restriction, and I would have added it here but for the prot. Can we get some consensus to add this into WP:V, and have an admin add it? - Crockspot 17:15, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I've unprotected once again. Everyone involved in the last edit war is an established user, so I shouldn't have to do the be bold, then revert, and then stop editing and talk speech, but I'm not sure anyone listened last time, so that was a brief recap. Briefly, don't edit war. No-one likes the fact that something may be in a policy that shouldn't be there, so that's why we ask that people discuss changes here on the talk page first. Anyway, best of luck with it, and remember, don't edit war. It's disruptive, and can lead to blocks. Hiding Talk 13:25, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
If you lot don't stop reverting each other, I am going to protect it again. Viridae Talk 00:20, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I have a strong objection to this being added to the article. I reverted, was reverted, and the reverter was reverted. I saw no discussion of this above, and I would guess that consensus would be against this addition. There are statements that contradict the source that is cited, and conflict with the previous paragraph. There was a similar change attempted to WP:BLP yesterday, which was de-fanged and watered down in a compromise that caused no actual shift of burden, or weakening of the policy. The same arguments apply here. - Crockspot 00:28, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I added that piece because some editors are citing this guideline when not only removing sections of articles that are currently unsourced without first requesting citations (which, btw is a very large number of articles), they are also removing sourced content which they do not feel is adequately sourced without first giving reasonable time for additional citations to be given. My personal experience involves a diagram (which currently sources five different published sources) which has not only been in the psychoactive drug article for the past two years, but has also received numerous accolades including one from the Florida Office of Drug Policy requesting a more printer-friendly version. I have become seriously dissuaded from contributing, and I know that others are as well. After a few years of contributing to many drug related articles, (as well as financially to the Wikimedia foundation), and also encouraging others to contribute, I am starting to feel like I have been wasting time better spent elsewhere. -- Thoric 20:21, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone point to a consensus or guideline regarding the accuracy/verifiability of IMDB biographical information cited as a source? Having a WP:BLP problem with actress' date of birth on Minka (porn star) (the article subject is complaining). Videmus Omnia Talk 15:18, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia_talk:Lead_section#Lead_citation raises the question: must an article's lead contain citations, or is it OK to have the lead summarize the body, with all citations in the body? This topic comes up over and over again, and one can easily find high quality examples either way; for example Johannes Kepler has inline citations in the header but Climate of India defers all inline citations to the body. (Both of these examples are recent Featured Articles.)
My feeling is that WP:V allows the lead to summarize the body, deferring detailed citations to the body. But SlimVirgin feels strongly that articles like Climate of India do not conform to WP:V, and SlimVirgin has removed all my attempts to modify WP:LEAD to address the question. What's the consensus here? Does this issue require any changes to WP:V for clarification? Eubulides 06:12, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
With regard to the point raised above, I have noticed an increasing tendency in the last year for people to scrap or delete material on their own, often subjective, judgement that it is "unsourced". It is fine to put the onus on contributors to cite their sources, but I'm afraid that Verifiability is starting to take on the characteristics of a stick that you can use to beat anyone you want.
Someone recently deleted a section that I wrote a long time ago at the article on Li Bai. The section read:
I am the first one to admit that it was not a well-written paragraph and could confuse readers. I originally added the detailed note because there appeared to be a misconception among some contributors that Li Po was somehow "incorrect" and should be as far as possible expunged from Wikipedia.
What troubles me is that the person deleting this information gave the following edit summary as a reason for removing it: "The name section was probably unncessary; most importantly it was unreferenced, probably gave more confusion to readers. Remove it as of now."
The information in question came from Chinese dictionaries of various descriptions. It's true that I gave no references, but anyone with some familiarity with the Chinese language could find that information if they wanted to. I find the use of the "unreferenced" argument to delete or question anything the editor himself has never heard of a troubling phenomenon. In fact, if this criterion were to be scrupulously adhered to, a large percentage of Wikipedia would disappear overnight. How can contributors be expected to source every single statement that appears in Wikipedia? Even referencing is no guarantee that a statement is correct. Contributors could easily distort referenced sources or use them to advance highly POV arguments. It seems to me (this is my own subjective judgement) that a lot of people are simply using the "unsourced" argument to delete material that they don't like.
In the case I cite above, the explanation of Li Po's traditional name could have been moved elsewhere, away from the head of the article, or it could have been rewritten to make it less obtrusive. But someone decided that it was "unreferenced", and therefore deletable without the need for further debate.
Verifiability, like the POV and OR criteria, needs to be used judiciously. Taking Verifiability and OR to their logical extremes, Wikipedia would be best served by wholesale plagiarism from other sources, preferably on the Internet -- totally verifiable and definitely not original research!
Bathrobe 06:40, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, we all know there are some concerns about the procedures and specifics for whether and when contributors may remove unreferenced content. Here is a request. If you are going to attempt to modify this policy to clarify these concerns, DO NOT just add your clarification to the "This page in a nutshell" section. Recently, a contributor added a clause to the "nutshell" summary that was not even touched upon in the terms of the policy itself. If a reader wanted to make a good-faith effort to reconcile the "summary" with specific language in the policy, they would have come up empty-handed.
The "nutshell" summary is just that, a summary; not a separate document and not a place to patch perceived "holes" in the terms of the policy itself. If it's not already clearly indicated in the terms of the policy, then please don't add it to the summary. Thanks. dr.ef.tymac 14:01, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
In this edit (now moved here to talk to establish consensus) the summary reads:
![]() | This page in a nutshell: Articles should only contain material that has been published by reliable sources. Editors adding or restoring material that has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, or any quotations, must provide a reliable published source, or the material may be removed at an appropriate time. |
and the Burden of evidence section reads:
Is this what we wish the policy to say? WAS 4.250 16:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
We could use ""in due course" instead of "at an appropriate time" and other changes to the exact words would also be ok. The point is that this talk pages proves there are new people who read the currebt wording and conclude policy says they can immediate remove unsourced content and this talk page also proves there is a consensus that my edit to this policy does accurately reflect current policy. Using the talk page to discuss every minor rewording is not how policy pages are edited, so I guess some people see this as not minor and not consensus. I can buy it not being minor. But it does seem to me to be consensus. We don't vote on consensus you know. Or do we? WAS 4.250 16:40, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion days of editing this talk page by many people have demonstrated the consensus needed for the substance of what I added and revising the exact wording can be done wiki stye without elaborate talk; so unless an established editor of this policy like slimvirgin or jossi say there is a lack of consensus for the substance of my edit I will add back the edit tomorrow. WAS 4.250 17:05, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
(<--)You say "appropriate time" adds nothing. That is not true. It makes clear that "immediate" is not to be assumed. You say that this phrase needs to be further specified to give help to people to know when the appropriate time is. My edit did that. It adds "Any edit lacking a source may be removed at an appropriate time. Stable older material added before citing was common on Wikipedia should be provided with references rather than removed, but eventually all significant claims must either be sourced or removed. For material recently added, the contributor may object if you remove their contribution without giving them a chance to provide references." and "The question of when to delete a claim is a matter of editorial judgement, so use the opinions of editors that are repected for their editorial judgement. For example, be careful not to go too far on the side of leaving unsourced information in articles for too long, or at all in the case of information about living people. Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia, has said of this: "I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons." Did you not read it? Are you trolling me?? Or is your position that one musyt provide a nonsubjective specific algorithm or nothing? You are not making sense. Either you are trolling or you haven't even read whar you are objecting to. WAS 4.250 12:15, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Either you are trolling or you haven't even read whar [sic] you are objecting to
It makes clear that "immediate" is not to be assumed.
poorly sourced contentious material ... about living persons ... should be removed immediately and without discussion (emphasis in original)
You say that (appropriate time) needs to be further specified
Are you trolling me?
≈ jossi ≈ had already added a proposed clarification, which I reverted, but agreed was worth supporting, though it seemed it just needed more input. I still stand by this, and support ≈ jossi ≈'s original proposal ... this horse has been beat to death, and other (less helpful) "clarifications" seem to be just muddying up the issue. dr.ef.tymac 00:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Can the editors watching this talk page tell me whether I'm correctly interpreting the relationship between Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not? The former says "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth", while the latter says "merely being true or informative does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia". My interpretation of this is:
"Wikipedia's verifiability policy is not saying that anything with reliable sources should be in Wikipedia. It is saying that anything in Wikipedia must have reliable sources. In addition to this, our "What Wikipedia is not" policy is one of the policies that keeps unencyclopedic material out. Verifiability alone is not enough to keep unencyclopedic material out of Wikipedia."
Is this interpretation correct? I ask because I fear that it is too easy for people to misinterpret "the threshold for inclusion is verifiability" as "the only threshold for inclusion is verifiability", and from that to conclude that anything verifiable can be included, which is obviously wrong. Is there any possibility that the text here could be edited to make it clearer that this is not what is meant? Carcharoth 21:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Please see: Wikipedia:Requests for verification
A proposal designed as a process similar to {{ prod}} to delete articles without sources if no sources are provided in 30 days.
It reads:
Some editors see this as necessary to improve Wikipedia as a whole and assert that this idea is supported by policy, and others see this as a negative thing for the project with the potential of loss of articles that could be easily sourced.
I would encourage your comments in that page's talk or Mailing list thread on this proposal WikiEN-l: Proposed "prod" for articles with no sources
Signed Jeepday ( talk) 13:58, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
The following is a quick outline of issues related to recent changes to this policy:
I intend to modify the policy text associated with the items listed here, unless someone else addresses these problems with either a satisfactory counter-proposal or direct corrections. Thanks. dr.ef.tymac 15:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
"The question of when to delete a claim is a matter of editorial judgement, so please consider other opinions and common conduct. Be prepared for disagreement. Remember to be bold, revert (or allow reversion) and discuss. While delays and discussion are sometimes appropriate, remember not to leave..."
Will someone please add in due course once to the summary and once to the body? WAS 4.250 17:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Alternate proposal: M. H. and SamBC have suggested what seems like the only rational course for resolving this perpetual-motion round-robin of abortive clarifications on "appropriate timing", "due course", "due process" or whatever else you want to call it.
I propose these issues be addressed in an Essay that gets linked from the policy text with a footnote, indicating there are differing views on how this should be handled. This kind of resolution has been done before on core policy pages (See e.g., Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Article_structure). If a pre-existing essay is not already out there, whoever wants to can take leadership on putting it together. If the essay takes sufficient shape, it can be proposed as a guideline.
Thoughts? dr.ef.tymac 17:11, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
There is a huge discussion on Talk:Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows about whether or not to insert a plot summary of the book based upon leaked copies readily available on the Internet. Although some people make arguments about respecting the wishes of the author and the publisher, many understand that Wikipedia is not censored and those wishes should not dominate the decision.
However, the grounds on which we are currently opposing inclusion of any material based on leaks is verifiability. There are reportedly 1200 copies of the book which have been leaked. One editor claims that this is sufficient to establish verifiability i.e. if someone says X, someone else who has a copy of the book can say "Nay, not true". Several editors have opposed this view saying "Verifiability means that, at least in theory, anyone can eventually get a copy of the book and verify the truth of an assertion themselves. Might take time, might be difficult but, at the end of the day, it has to be possible.
The project page does not explicitly support this interpretation although I believe it is the logical conclusion based upon the spirit of verifiability.
I propose that we expand this page to make it more clear how verifiability applies to leaked information and other information which is available on a limited basis.
-- Richard 17:27, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
We say "verifiable" but a more precise wording is "attribute-able". SlimVirgin got that right. Likewise, this incident points out that when we say "published" we are really talking about "distributed" or "accessable". WAS 4.250 17:47, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Maybe I'll start saying Claims must be attributable to reliable accessable sources ? WAS 4.250 17:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
If an article from a reliable source (newspaper or magazine) has been re-printed online in its entirety on someone's personal web page, is it better to simply refer to the print article (with date and volume) or to provide a link to the republished article on the personal website? Thanks - TheMightyQuill 17:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Currently the policy says:
But this is not necessarily true, for example paragraph 45 of the ECHR "Jorgic v. Germany" (Application no. 74613/01) presents a summary of the ICJ position on ethnic cleansing in the "Bosnia and Herzegovina v. Serbia and Montenegro" case that is at least as reliable as academic and peer-reviewed publications. So other court cases can be as good (or better) than peer-reviewed publications in the area of international law, because as is pointed out in the next sentence "the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues" and a ruling by the ECHR or similar has far greater fact checking (and balanced POV) than any "academic or peer-reviewed publication". -- Philip Baird Shearer 18:23, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
The next paragraph says:
Given that judicial reviews (such as the ECHR case mentioned above) are at least as good or better than "peer-reviewed publications" and there are other types of publications by public bodies that are at least as good or better than "peer-reviewed publications" (e.g. The Blue Book or the OECD Factbook) that can be covered by the word usually, the next sentence can be open to misinterpretation because court transcripts, and other government publications (including those by international bodies such as the UN and the EU), are not in "mainstream publications". -- Philip Baird Shearer 07:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; government inquiries; judicial reviews; and mainstream newspapers. As a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work, the more reliable it is.
Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued, as are judicial reviews and government inquiries, and are usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available. Material from other reliable sources may also be used in these areas, particularly if they are respected mainstream publications. The appropriateness of any source always depends on the context. Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text.
A link was added as a seealso to Wikipedia:Verifiability/Removal of Uncited Material. I've removed it due to several concerns.
I'm all for getting more discussion and contribution to the essay (which I've not been able to work on for a few days, at least, but was about to return to), but this is not served by a spurious link from a policy page, nor by forking the page. SamBC 16:45, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I just want to say that the points covered in this essay need to be integrated into Wikipedia policy as soon as possible. The current policy is being used by people as justification for removal of (cited, by supposedly inadequately) content they disagree with. -- Thoric 17:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Okay, on balance, it seems that the alternate version should be deleted and the Userspace one moved. I moved the alternate version, but forgot that that didn't delete it, so it's tagged for speedy G6, could an admit delete it and I'll move the version from my userspace. This gives a clean, simple, unconfusing (relatively) edit history. SamBC 19:13, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I, and others, based on the edit history, think Jimbo's quote needs to be followed up with
This is not a unqualified license to remove all unsourced information one encounters, however, since it remains less antagonizing to other editors to add a "citation required" tag to their unsourced edits as opposed to simply reverting their edits, and the ideal practice is to try and locate supporting citations for the unsourced edits of others.
or something like that. Slimvirgin says that this is already covered off. No it isn't. Recognizing that other editors "may object" is not a recognition of how antagonizing it is to an editor to have almost every sentence or even every phrase written reverted on the grounds that it is unsourced (which is what happens is someone out there decides Wikipedia needs protection from the likes of you). In my experience the people who are hesitant to revert are the "good guys"; by which I mean people who are trying to accomodate the opinions of others, value their contributions, and build Wikipedia. The people that revert claiming "no source", and then revert again claiming "unreliable source", and then revert again claiming "undue weight", are the "bad guys"; people who can't tolerate the idea of a Wiki article reflecting anyone's opinion but their own. And leaving Jimbo Wales' comment to be the last word here is giving a big green light to those "bad guys". They are egged on enough by the quote as it is. Bdell555 06:21, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Any edit lacking attribution may be removed, and the burden of evidence lies with the editor wishing to add or retain the material. However, this policy should not be used to cause disruption by removing material for which reliable sources could easily be found — except in the case of contentious material about living persons, which must be removed immediately.
I think this discussion would be more productive with an example (note this example is not an active dispute). I was directed to this example some time ago from someone who came to this talk page complaining about this policy being used disruptively. I tried to help out, I did save some of the material, but I eventually found the task to difficult and moved on to other things. In this case the material had reference provided for it, but had not been done with citation style. There was no reason to believe the reference was given in bad faith or that the original contributor used it in a sloppy manner, however the dispute related to what qualified as "unsourced". The reference was not a common book, I was able to find a copy at a local Jesuit university. However it was an original edition, which means it was not the published English translation used by the original contributer, but the French version. I was able to verify much of the information to the limits of my French skills and time (I do not have check-out or computer privileges at this library), I am certain the rest could have been verified by someone with greater skill (or the copy of the book in English). This is the most solid example of disruption I have ever seen from this issue. However I do not know how much fault lays with this policy, or that the issue should be clarified here. However I think Talk:Marcel Lefebvre#Request for Comment shows that it is an issue that need some clarification somewhere.-- BirgitteSB 16:38, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
A good writer always researchs his or her subject first... then writes based on that research.
Whenever I see the word "always" or "never" in reference to editorial practice (within WP or anywhere else) ... red flags automatically go up and sirens start blaring and lights on the danger-meter start blinking.
This is especially troubling considering WP is a wide-open project that does not keep "score" of how many times a contributor wrongly challenges correct information. This means there is zero opportunity cost for attacking legitimate content. There is no "downside" if a contributor decides he is going to challenge every single sentence in an article that isn't substantiated with one or more inline citations, even when such insistence is bordering on pedantic or even downright disruptive.
Would it be alright for someone to challenge an edit to Vitamin C or Ascorbic Acid if the contributor happened to be someone like Linus Pauling? Should someone like that be required to have a stack of citations before adding a paragraph to an article? Even if you answer "yes, *always*" ... the problem is 'always' can easily be taken to ridiculous extremes.
I dislike unreferenced "crap" just as much as the next person, but if we consider Who actually writes Wikipedia, experienced and knowledgeable contributors should be hassled as little as possible, or they simply will not have any incentive to waste time "collaborating" here. dr.ef.tymac 17:44, 26 July 2007 (UTC)