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Are these "personal websites"?
Could someone give a definition of "personal website"? Or at least explain what would make the examples above "personal website" or not? -- Francis Schonken 07:25, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
A personal website is very easy to spot. Anyone can make that judgement just by looking at the page. If there is a website that may be borderline or that you are not sure about, discuss on talk page and ask other editors to take a look as well. Note that there is nothing inherently wrong with a personal website, providing it is used as sources of information about themselves in articles about themselves, so long as there is no reasonable doubt about who wrote it as per WP:RS. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:56, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
The last example is interesting. I don't think a business's website should be considered any better a source than a "personal" website. The reason we strongly favour newspapers and publishing houses is that we can have some certainty that they exercise editorial control over the material they publish, and will make some effort at fact checking. That cannot be considered true of businesses in general, although they are a degree more reliable than individuals on account of being more scared of being sued! They also tend to have their content checked, but you cannot count on this to the degree you can with the NYT. I'd say that the policy should reflect that (although it's purely an application of common sense) by saying that a business's website can only be relied on to be a source for statements about itself, in precisely the same way as a personal website. The plus for a business website is that there can be little doubt that it wrote the stuff about itself. Grace Note 02:52, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
And about the .edu domain. Even if the university claims copyright over the site, that does not imply that it checks the material on it. I think that academics' sites, unless they reproduce material published elsewhere, should be treated in precisely the same way as anyone else's site. Grace Note 02:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Read this page Wikipedia:No original research#Expert editors and when these other sites are viewed, the question should be, is this person an expert in their subject matter? Do these pages themselves quote reliable sources? Wjhonson 01:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be an awful lot of reverting here. Can you all try to sort it out at this talk page? It looks bad to have an edit war over a policy page. I've protected the page for the moment. AnnH ♫ 00:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Ann. I think the version we have here is relatively stable and we really should talk it out before making changes. Grace Note 02:47, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
In the section on "sources" perhaps we should add, at the outset, that "When adding a verifiable content it is essential to provide enough information that the source can be found and checked. The more precise the content, the more precise the source must be." or something like that. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree it is implied. I just wonder if we could benefit from something more explicit. it is not a big deal and if no one is enthusiasitc about this we can drop it. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Is a student newspaper a valid primary source of a racial slur in regards to a living persons page? A student newspaper has said that a particular media personality made a racial slur to a teen. This quote is not attributed at any other location other then blogs that link back to the student newspaper. Is this a valid primary source under these conditions? -- zero faults |sockpuppets| 16:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
What should we do when multiple verifiable and reliable sources contain conflicting information? Peteresch 17:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Is anyone wed to the "threshhold of is verifiability, not truth" line in the introduction? It serves to obscure the matter by a catchy slogan rather than just directly stating what the policy is. —
Centrx→
talk •
20:32, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I think the "policy in a nutshell" should, with the some modifications, be the basis for a first paragraph. This is the purpose of an introduction. WP:NPOV just repeats the "policy in a nutshell" in its introduction. The first paragraph of WP:NOR would not make much sense to an average person without reading the "policy in a nutshell", which on that page serves as the introduction. An introduction should be direct and a summary, which is what the "policy in a nutshell" is trying to be. Either the "policy in a nutshell" has to be recognized as the first paragraph of the article, bolded and separated as the over-all description, and the rest of the introduction doesn't need to repeat it, or the policy in a nutshell is just a duplicate of the first paragraph of the introduction. — Centrx→ talk • 22:03, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
In my view, the centre of the dispute over this page and over this policy as a whole is that "verifiable" most commonly means "checkable as true". Its meaning contains an idea of truth that we don't want to convey. This would be resolved, I think, simply by renaming the policy WP:Checkability and rewriting it to be clear that what we want is that any information/material/stuff/"facts"/views/whatever in our articles must be checkable against reputable sources without reference to whether it is true. Again, this is a solution that is so stunningly simple and obvious that it has no hope whatsoever of being accepted because it's just so much more fun to battle over the most meaningless bollocks we can come up with. Grace Note 04:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
All information included in Wikipedia must be verifiable. The criterion for inclusion is verifiability, not truth. We seek truth but do not lead the way. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, because Wikipedia does not publish original thought or original research. Fred Bauder 02:19, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Jeezus. Instead of writing "verifiable in this context means...", why not use a word that does not need its context defined? Fred, I don't think we should mention the t-word at all. We do not seek the truth. That would be a vain quest, because as has been noted, there are often several different truths! We just report what others have claimed the truth is. All that this policy needs to say is that you must be able to check that "stuff" in here has appeared elsewhere, where "stuff" is whatever word we come up with for the substance of what articles contain. Grace Note 08:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
All information included in Wikipedia must be verifiable. The criterion for inclusion is verifiability. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Material which has not yet been published in a reliable source may not be included in a Wikipedia article.
Wikipedia:Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's three content-guiding policies. The other two are Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should therefore try to familiarize themselves with all three. These three policies are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Their policy pages may be edited only to better reflect practical explanation and application of these principles. Fred Bauder 17:31, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Did I miss something? I don't recall seeing a consensus for removing truth from the intro. I won't revert yet, but I bet someone else will shortly. -- Donald Albury( Talk) 17:46, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I think that ""Verifiability, not truth" is an important thing to stress, and I wouldn't want to see it disappear." perhaps could be dealt with in a section further down the page. Verifiability, not truth, could perhaps be the header. Fred Bauder 19:06, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Mary, mother of Jesus is actually a very bad title, using, as it does, the heretical doctrine of the Nestorians, a decidedly minority viewpoint. Fred Bauder 03:33, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Could admins please quit abusing their privilege and editing this article while it is protected? The rest of us have to try to sort out the content here. To watch you impose your views when we cannot sticks in the craw. Grace Note 08:15, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Changes must be agreed on the discussion page before implementing. — Centrx→ talk • 13:32, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Changed my mind and reverted, but please explain why:
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, because Wikipedia does not publish original thought or original research.
Wikipedia:Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's three content-guiding policies. The other two are Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should therefore try to familiarize themselves with all three. These three policies are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Their policy pages may be edited only to better reflect practical explanation and application of these principles.
is better than:
All information included in Wikipedia must be verifiable. The criterion for inclusion is verifiability. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Material which has not yet been published in a reliable source may not be included in a Wikipedia article.
Wikipedia:Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's three content-guiding policies. The other two are Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should therefore try to familiarize themselves with all three. These three policies are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Their policy pages may be edited only to better reflect practical explanation and application of these principles.
Fred Bauder 18:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
(For those who find collation a nuisance, here's the diff. The second paragraph is unchanged.)
:/
—
mjb
20:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)"These three policies are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Their policy pages may be edited only to better reflect practical explanation and application of these principles."
Huh? Was there a coup d'etat while I was out working? Kim Bruning 22:46, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I have created a new template, {{ failed verification}} that bears the same relation to {{ citecheck}} that {{ fact}} bears to {{ verify}}. This will help distinguish at a glance among three cases:
I can think of a couple of articles where this template could help focus on the actual point of dispute. Robert A.West ( Talk) 19:27, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I mentioned this above already, but the page appears to be protected so I'll have to ask someone else to fix it.
"These three policies are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Their policy pages may be edited only to better reflect practical explanation and application of these principles."
Could someone look at this? There's some rather misleading text on there at the moment. Things like non-negotiability and no editing this page and other such nonsense that don't really go well with Wikipedia:No binding decisions. Even the foundation issues are theoretically negotiable (though admittedly not so much in practice).
Kim Bruning 20:06, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. This is not a mere guideline; this is the fundamental, essential property of Wikipedia. Encyclopedias in general, and this encyclopedia specifically, are not written from various biased points of view, nor do they premiere research, and they are based on authoritative sources.
This is the theory, this is the practice, this is the enforced policy. The overwhelming majority of Wikipedia editors follow these principles, though they may not necessarily agree on their exact practical implications. If an article is not written according to these policies, it is revised to be in accord with these policies. If a topic is a theory out of someone's head, or if it is impossible to verify, its article is deleted. If a tract cannot be rewritten to be neutral, it is deleted. This is done by editors, this is done by administrators, this is done by the owners of the servers. See also [3] and [4].
If you mean that it is "negotiable" insofar as a few people do try to flout or negotiate it on articles, the end result is still that these policies are followed; on a wiki the article may for a time not follow the policy, but this does not mean that the policy is overridden. If you mean that it is "negotiable" insofar as editors refine the policy pages, this does not mean that the principle itself is not followed. "Discussion" of the policy or principle does not mean that is not the policy and principle.
This page must convey to article editors that they are obliged to follow this policy; it must convey to policy editors that they are obliged to follow the principle. Any revision of these principles would not be the same process by which this policy page is revised, and it would need to actually convince those thousands upon thousands of editors who agree with it, among them those well-respected, long-standing members of the community who administer and take part in administering the site and the encyclopedia. — Centrx→ talk • 21:45, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Supporting Kim on this one. Also the current "freezing" of the WP:V page in a way that only sysops can edit it seems in contradiction with the outcome of the poll held not so long ago at Wikipedia:Editing policy pages: no, it is not OK to make policy pages only editable by sysops on a long-term base. WP:NPOV can do without it (I don't think it was ever protected for more than a few weeks), I don't see why WP:V couldn't.
See also my last comment at Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources#Bulletin boards, wikis, and posts to Usenet. -- Francis Schonken 13:31, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Centrx and Titoxd above. An unverifiable encyclopedia is worthless. WP:NBD does not contradict WP:V, as WP:NBD says "some decisions [by Jimmy Wales, arbcom, and the Foundation] are binding until those who made the decision recall it," Jimmy Wales says WP:NPOV is non-negotiable, and WP:V complements and is required by WP:NPOV. As far as editors who continually introduce unverifiable POV material being a "precious commodity," I disagree. -- Dragonfiend 14:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I don't see what would be lost by enforcing policy. Anyone who edits and inserts their personal opinion is not volunteering for Wikipedia. Are you proposing that each article be fiefdoms of editors who can do whatever they want? That's what happens if there is no policy. — Centrx→ talk • 07:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Once the principles become negotiable, however, it becomes no longer an "encyclopedia". Insofar as the principles may be negotiated out, Wikipedia becomes something essentially other than what it is, always has been, and was intended to be. — Centrx→ talk • 20:12, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
a term used on Wikipedia to refer to material placed into articles by Wikipedia editors that has not been previously published by a reliable source. It includes unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, and ideas; or any new interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts, or arguments that appears to advance a position or, in the words of Wikipedia's co-founder Jimbo Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation."
undent. If something is common knowledge, then it has been published obviously. The mere fact that you cannot lay your hands on the citation at the moment for something like "The Sun is Shiny" doesn't mean its OR. You seemed to be implying (see up) that anything unsourced was OR and that's just not true. Wjhonson 14:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I didn't use the CMYK example by accident. Most people will agree that blue is blue, you see, even without a specific text source. Some things are just common knowlege in a particular field. Many things are very easy to verify by trivial experiment. If an article starts out unsourced, it's no big deal. We can add sources later. It's often unlikely to be very wrong, and we'll have more articles, which is good! Removing information just because it's not referenced is probably not as great an idea as you might think either.
Of course, by the time we try to make the article featured, all statements do need to be referenced.
The one place where we need to be careful to make our statements verifiable is when we talk about living persons. It's important. Living persons might be harmed in their daily lives by what we write. Kim Bruning 23:18, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
@MjB: AvB's paraphrasing was a misquote. I was speaking about WP:NPOV ("absolute and non-negotiable" per Jimbo [6] [7]), not about WP:V. And AvB had mutilated the quote: the discussion where it was taken from can be found here: Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view/Archive 021#Infallibility - a meta-question re non-negotiable. The discussion on that talk page continued in Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view/Archive 021#Non-negotiable, where I referred to User:Jimbo Wales/Statement of principles, point 6: "The mailing list will remain open, well-advertised, and will be regarded as the place for meta-discussions about the nature of Wikipedia. Very limited meta-discussion of the nature of the Wikipedia should be placed on the site itself."
I had that quote of Jimbo's principles followed by this:
Returning to the proposed text ("The fundamental principles of the three policies are non-negotiable and their policy pages may only be edited to better reflect practical explanation and application of these principles."):
-- Francis Schonken 07:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
To perhaps clarify some things about "non-negotiable" policies and principles (with care to distinguish between these words):
To respond to one point with regard to Verifiability specifically:
— Centrx→ talk • 20:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
The information must be possible to check in reliable sources, but it is not necessary that there be specific citation to where to check. This policy currently blurs this a bit, but that is the encyclopedic principle. A chemistry textbook or Britannica doesn't have a footnote every sentence pointing to where it got the information, but a reader can still verify it by looking at any major source. We need citations on Wikipedia because, whereas Britannica makes sure that the articles are written by at least a nominal expert in the field, and are reviewed by other experts and fact-checkers, information added to a Wikipedia article could have just as well been added by a quack. As the principle, we don't accept the authority of the random editor, but this does not mean that obvious facts are not allowed, or that uncited implausibilities are not provisionally permitted. The Verifiability page currently has a summary of things that are in Wikipedia:Reliable sources or Wikipedia:Citing sources, but that is not essential to its meaning. — Centrx→ talk • 07:12, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Meh, people should never be able to just talk their way out of having to provide a source when a claim is challenged. If we can include original research just because we happen to feel like it, that makes the project a real joke, if you ask me.
What the people who have this fear of WP:V don't seem to get is that only dubious claims get removed... if something's uncited, that's fine, so long as no one thinks the claim is incorrect. If people think the claim is wrong, and a source can't be found for it, then the claim should be removed... does anyone really think we shouldn't do it that way? But no one is going to run around deleting articles like Ice cream because they don't cite sources... acting like that is a logical result of "non-negotiable" is just silly. -- W.marsh 19:45, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Recently, I've run into the problems Tony is describing while I was editing a stub on the Enteric Nervous System. My content was deleted twice, each time. within hours of my edit. The stub already had a section of sources and I was merely summarizing. A cursory google search brings up a page of sites with essentially the same information. The requirement of citing every paragraph would mean attaching the same list to each paragraph. When I protested I was repeatedly referred to WP:V.
It seems to me that our primary concern should be our audience. We need to label every article that is inadequately. sourced and provide an index to the featured articles. h2g2 does that. They have levels of peer review and avoid the need for more than minimal censorship.
Being revert happy is not the only way to solve the references problem. I'd personally rather let unsourced information remain a while with a flag so other Wikipedians can track it down, Thats what collaborative publishing is all about but I was told that its against policy. But you could hear an important fact, on the radio for example and not have time to track it down. Why not delegate to someone who has the time? References are always a work in progress because authorities can publish mistakes that are later corrected. We can't expect the average Wikipedian to have the time and diligence of Lessig but we could put reference chasing on our todo list.
I'd like to share Tony's optimism but its not consistent with what I've seen of organizational behavior. From what I've seen they move to more rigidity and bureaucracy and ultimately ossification. I'm not saying it always happens but I haven't experienced an exception. Eventually the structure forks ( called a startup in the corporate world ). The parent may still be useful but like duck tape, handy but not cutting edge. Cayte 00:03, 25 July 2006 (UTC)Cayte
Assume that a corporation has published to its web page a press release regarding a piece of proposed legislation. Clearly, the policy as phrased would permit the mention of this press release in an article discussing the corporation. Would this policy permit the mention of the press release in an article discussing the legislation itself? - O^O
Phi Alpha Literary Society Precis 12:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed some work being carried out on this article. Is there a simple summary of the outstanding issues, or has everything been resolved now? Stephen B Streater 18:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I do this suggestion as a result of these recent/ongoing discussions:
In both cases an editor contended (s)he had provided reliable sources, so the thus referenced assertions should be included in Wikipedia:
In both cases the original editor contended (s)he had done enough, while providing reliable sources (so conforming to Burden of evidence), so (s)he needn't do any additional effort to provide complementary sources that would satisfy the other editors.
So I propose to extend the WP:V#Burden of evidence section so that it makes clear that the Burden of evidence doesn't stop before reasonably accessible reliable sources can be given, which also demonstrate that the statement proposed for inclusion in Wikipedia is more than a tiny minority view.
This might be WP:BEANS (it would be for most of us), and a more handsome formulation of the idea is surely possible, but it might cut short several lingering discussions (for example I also think about "Hubbard's Lecture 7203C05" proposed as a source for the Suppressive Person article, but largely unavailable/unaccessible to anyone else than the single Wikipedian that appeared to have a copy of it - discussions have been going on for weeks). -- Francis Schonken 07:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
"Must allow independent verification" seems a good formulation of the principle too.
Re. "easy to put on the internet": not always: for example, that might be a copyright infringement in some cases (it would in the "Lecture 7203C05" case if I understand the context of that debate, and it would be for most journals and magazines published in the 20th century).
I was still thinking about another example, in Constructions of Subjectivity in Franz Schubert's Music four versions of an essay by Susan McClary are mentioned: (1) a 1990 lecture; (2) a 1992 lecture; (3) a publication in the Gay/Lesbian Study Group Newsletter; (4) publication in Queering the Pitch: The New Gay and Lesbian Musicology, ISBN 0415907535. The Wikipedia article contends that all four versions are different... Since only the fourth version is widely available, how could *independent verification* of the assertion that this version is the most "sanitized" of the four be conducted? -- Francis Schonken 08:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Look at the Policy section on the main page. Item 3 says
It would be helpful to replace this by
In fact, it's rather surprising that the Policy section doesn't once stress the need for accessibility, which is obviously the cornerstone of Verifiability. If you'll forgive a little cynicism, this suggestion will never be implemented, because of the petty bickering that would ensue about the need to make precise the meaning of "reasonably accessible". As for SBS's comment, if editor Mr.X cites a reliable source in his possession that nobody else has, then I would think to myself "I don't know Mr.X, why should I trust that he quotes accurately from his source?" If Mr.X puts a copy of this reliable source on his personal website, I'd be much happier, but I'd still wonder about the reliability of the website purporting to reproduce the source. Precis 09:06, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
It's an unworkable solution. There are millions of rare books which only exist in say 2, 10, 30, or 100 libraries worldwide. Where do you draw the line at "reasonable" ? It's so vague it's unusable. We are however, conducting discussion on some of these very points at WP:RS and I would suggest this move there, as "accessibility" is one of the issues we've been discussing. You are suggesting, that if I happen to have a rare book by, for example A.P. Sinnett which I do, an early copy with contains additional text, not in the final version, that I cannot cite these additional text, since I, the editor, would then have to *prove* that this particular edition, exists in more than 20 libraries say in the world. That puts an almost impossible burden upon editors who tend to work on obscure subject matter. I cannot cite the Journal of Contemporary Greek Archaeology unless I can also prove that this particular volume exists in more than 20 libraries? Wjhonson 20:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I regard this as squabbling. It like arguing that "reasonable doubt" is an unworkable concept in law, because it is unclear where to draw the line. Precis 22:44, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
The WP:V page currently states: "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source,, and surprise, surprise, nobody is using this to suggest mandatory use of online sources. Yet you say that the two lil words "reasonably accessible" may result in DISASTER. My oh my, thanks for scaring me straight. I'll say no more on the subject here. Precis 23:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
One solution might be to establish a project to check sources, not on line. This would be slow; I would be willing to look up some things, but I have my own editing. Septentrionalis 21:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
The current policy for when self-published sources can be used in articles other than about the author reads:
My feeling is that this is overly restrictive. I understand that it isn't meant to be an all-inclusive list, but experience tells me that many editors treat it as if it were, and automatically rule out self-published sources that do not fit one of these two categories. My main concern is over the word "researcher"; while this is an excellent standard for articles about academic subjects, it makes it much more difficult to use self-published sources in subject areas that are non-academic in nature, and in which therefore there are few or no professional researchers to publish such articles.
I would suggest a change to make it read either "well-known, professional researcher or expert in a relevant field" or more simply "well-known expert in a relevant field". (I'm not sure whether or not "professional" should remain in this latter case) As an example of the kind of article that could be referenced under this new rule, but couldn't on the old one, consider any legal commentary published on Becker-Posner Blog by Richard Posner. As a US Appeal Court Judge, his opinion on such matters really ought to be reliable enough for citation here, but with the current situation, this would not normally be allowed.
Any comments? JulesH 21:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Notable expert sounds like good phrasing to me. Citations of the article is probably a good way of assessing, yes: if an article is cited in a positive way in a reliable source, then we can probably transfer at least some of that reliability onto the original article, however it was published. JulesH 23:47, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Another modification would be to change the condition about self-published sources from related to his notability to related to his field of notability; which is I think what is meant (that is, we can't quote Joe Expert's blog on what he likes for breakfast, unless he is a cereal taster). Septentrionalis 17:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
OK; perhaps Posner was a bad choice -- he is well published, and as pointed out you can find out just about anything relevant about his opinions from well-known third party sources. Let's take a slightly different tack: C. E. Petit is a well-known and respected copyright lawyer. He's perhaps best known for representing Harlan Ellison is his case against Robertson et al (see bottom of Harlan Ellison#Controversy). He isn't widely published, except on his own web site. He has some interesting theories concerning the applicability of copyright law to fan fiction, that could be usefully incorporated into legal issues with fan fiction. But he doesn't appear to be a reliable source. At least, not the way most people read this page. Is he? I think he should be. JulesH 15:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Quote:
Should this apply to non-corporate entities? For instance, if it were deemed relevant that a particular individual help some opinion, would it be reasonable to go to a self-published source for that opinion, even in an article not about that person (but, rather, on the subject of the opinion)? I'm assuming the person's opinion is deemed notable enough for inclusion. JulesH 15:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Is there any present need for protection of this page? Can we try an experiment? Septentrionalis 17:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Take for example, how much the Mayor of San Francisco paid for his townhouse. This information is published by the County government, in the lands records. Anyone can go to the courthouse and look it up. We are allowed to use primary documents, that are published by a reputable publisher. I don't think anyone would argue that the San Francisco land office is disreputable. The information is published, accessible, and by a reputable publisher. So I go look it up and cite it — $2.5 million dollars for a townhouse! Is it reasonable to expect, anyone who wants to know, to come to San Francisco to look it up. Remembering that the land office does not do research and won't answer requests by phone or mail. You have to come in-person or hire someone to come in-person. This isn't a hypothetical situation by the way. Wjhonson 07:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I think the standard should be this: If I cannot order a copy on-line (at a reasonable price), or through inter-library loan, then it is not accessible enough to count. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:26, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
? -- Francis Schonken 11:58, 30 July 2006 (UTC)Without diminishing other requirements regarding reliability and publication, sources used for reference or quotation in Wikipedia need to be accessible or available to other Wikipedians, that is: other Wikipedians should be able to order or view a copy on-line (at a reasonable price) and/or a copy should be obtainable through a major inter-library loan network.
Again, and sorry if I have been lately the throwing cold water on these discussions, the reason for these discussions fail me. Let me ask some questions about Wjohnson initial example, with the hope that it may focus the discussion:
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
If I lived in Tuvalu, then I'd have to rely on other editors to verify facts only published in the list of US libraries. Similarly, if I lived in the US, I might have to rely on editors in the UK for published works only available in the UK. I don't think it makes sense to say every editor has to be able to verify everything cheaply. If we say this, we may also have to throw away lots of other articles like Gromov's theorem on groups of polynomial growth which the typical editor will not be able to understand, let alone verify. Stephen B Streater 21:48, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
And what WP:LIVING says is quite clear:
Undent. I don't see how the example violates WP:NOR, and the simple fact of what he paid is not an opinion. If a reader draws an inference from the fact, that's not stated, that burden isn't on the editor. WP:NOR does state that primary sources may be used, which is contrary to what you stated above. Wjhonson 06:24, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
In my London flat, I discover a letter that Handel wrote to Bach in 1749. In a Wikipedia article on Handel, I quote from this letter. How could I make this citation consonant with WP-policy? First I could scan the letter and place it on my website. Next, I could ask several well known experts on the history of baroque music to confirm (on their websites) the authenticity of the letter I have displayed. My website is now a reliable published source for Handel's letter, suitable for Wikipedia. Precis 12:39, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
The experts based their assessments on the original letter, of course. Their public confirmation (that the original letter was authentic and that my website faithfully reproduces it) most certainly makes my display reliable. There is no need for me to wait until such a time that the letter is written up in some journal. Precis 13:52, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
The first two entries above offer no specific objections, whereas Coolcaesar provides an interesting analysis which raises a question. First, the historians are internationally known scholars in the field, with long established websites. It stretches credulity to suggest that they are fake experts. These are the very experts that magazines like Science or National Geographic have come to in the past to verify documents. By placing their (independent) analyses of the Handel letter on their websites, they ARE putting their credibility on the line. So here is my question. If along with their letters confirming authenticity they placed scans of the Handel letter on their own websites (instead of just providing links to my scan), would you still challenge citations to these experts' websites? Precis 20:23, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with SV's stenographer example, but that analogy doesn't apply here. The Handel letter on my site would ordinarily not be reliable, but it inherits reliability by virtue of the published letters of authenticity from independent experts. In short, my site becomes as reliable as the stenographer's. I have not heard a reason yet to indicate why the letter placed on an expert's sites is more reliable than the identical letter placed on my site, given that the independent experts' sites all point to my letter while vouching for the letter's authenticity. Their authentication is no different in principle than editorial oversight. We shouldn't lock in the notion that oversight can come only from the publishing industry. That's what I had in mind by "thinking outside the box". SBS is correct that I'd have to verify that the letter on my site isn't altered. (That's why I'd used the word "demonstrably" earlier.) This could be ensured in a number of ways. For example, the experts could all have low resolution versions of the letter on their sites. Another method might be to type the letter onto my User page so that months later someone could check the History for comparison. Comments: (1) Waiting for a journal to publish the letter is obviously the best course. But suppose the composers had been lesser known, important enough for WP but not important enough for a journal? (2) One reason I might want to keep the only high resolution version on my personal site is so I could charge a fee for downloading the handwritten copy. Precis 13:26, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Thank you all for your input, but I'm afraid I've heard nothing convincing so far. All seem to agree that if the letter were published on the experts' site, then WP could quote from it. Yet if the experts point to a copy of the letter on some anonymous website and vouch for its authenticity (and the copies provably have identical wording), some say the copy on the anonymous site may NOT be quoted. Why not? Dalbury's literal interpretation of policy WP:RS seems to be splitting hairs. I would trust the authenticated copy on the anonymous site as much as an identical copy on the experts' site, and I've yet to hear a reason why I shouldn't. Precis 21:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Sure, the owner of the anonymous site wants to make money from his find, and does not want to relinquish control of the high resolution copy of the letter. He's the kind of guy who finds a strad in his attic and won't let anyone play it. I'll close with a story.
A Wikipedia story, by Precis
A Wikipedian (W) and his date (D) are in my living room, having paid admission to see the Strad that I found in my attic.
W: I don't know why you dragged me here. That's not a strad.
D: What do you mean? The top appraisers in the US authenticated it and gave this address. And look, I downloaded this high resolution photo from Bein & Fushi. This violin looks exactly like it.
W: If this violin were in the offices of Bein & Fushi, then I'd say you have a point. But I don't know who lives here. Precis 21:52, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, here's a real example. Look at this old version of the Barbara Bauer article, specifically the last paragraph of the Controversy section. Here we have an example of quoting a primary source (a list to a google groups search that shows results from 1997 onwards, proving without doubt that the "negative online discussions" mentioned in the previous sentence exist) that was later removed by an editor, along with the sentence that it backed up, as not providing verifiability. I'm personally pretty sure that is verifiable: anyone can look at it and immediately see that the sentence is true. But it falls outside of the letter of what was discussed here, so it has been removed. Does common sense not suggest that this should be allowed to stand? JulesH 06:55, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Any article that accepts an organization's puffery without using outside sources needs improvement. Robert A.West (Talk) 19:03, 31 July 2006 (UTC) Good point. I made some reversions which should provide impetus for improvement. Precis 20:33, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
When you say "verifiability, not truth", doesen't that mean we could be telling a lie to everyone, as long it is published in some kind of media? Pacific Coast Highway ( blah • I'm a hot toe picker) 01:16, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Cranks often say that we are not competent to argue with their pet theory, and should therefore include it as The Truth, explaining why all other theories are wrong. They're right: We're not qualified; if anyone is, it is the whole body of scholarship on the subject. We are qualified to see whether the theory has been generally accepted (and the answer is almost always no).
It is almost certainly true that the consensus of scholarship will prove to be wrong on some things. But it is not Wikipedia's business to decide which. Septentrionalis 02:18, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Responding to the original question, as phrased, I see virtually no way for a Wikipedia editor to lie within an article and still be within policy. Consider a false statement, Q. There are three cases:
Yes, occasionally an editor feels that he or she has irrefutable personal knowledge that contradicts what the reliable sources have published. Most often, that "knowledge" will be doubtful or incomplete. Even eyewitnesses routinely misremember or misinterpret what they saw. There's not much we can do about the rare exception. Robert A.West ( Talk) 22:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
An editor has posted a request here on how to indicate, on a living person, that you have permission from them, to post details from their biography, that although created by the subject, were published in an otherwise reliable source. The content was previously removed as a copyvio, but the source, is releasing copyright. How do you handle that, so other editors are aware on the page? Please respond to that talk page, not here. Wjhonson 02:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
The change I made was reverted ( here) with the comment "rv, I don't see a clear consensus to make the change, even if it does look benign".
In the discussion about the change at Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#Suggestion_concerning_self-published_sources there were multiple responses that seemed in agreement that the change should be made, and nobody seemed to object strongly to it. Is this not enough consensus to make such a small change to this page? If it isn't, how should such consensus be achieved? JulesH 07:37, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Oftentimes a Wikipedia article will need to mention as a matter of course that rumors exist on a particular subject, or that certain outside opinions exist, etc. For instance, a lot of articles require a "controversy" section to really give complete coverage of a subject.
In that case, wouldn't it be appropriate at times to link to a blog or other unverifiable source, in order to prove "some people are saying this?" Or does it need to be to a 3rd party reliable news source that then quotes the unverifiable source?? heh... I suppose you could argue that linking to the 3rd party source avoids doing original research, but at the same time that also seems like a silly hoop to jump through...
An example I did recently was in MTV#Moral influence. Someone had asked for a citation for the sentence "Critics have said that MTV was like 'pornography for children,'" so I linked to a blog that did just that [9]. Is that appropriate, or is that a WP:VERIFY problem that I should revert? -- Jaysweet 15:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
Are these "personal websites"?
Could someone give a definition of "personal website"? Or at least explain what would make the examples above "personal website" or not? -- Francis Schonken 07:25, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
A personal website is very easy to spot. Anyone can make that judgement just by looking at the page. If there is a website that may be borderline or that you are not sure about, discuss on talk page and ask other editors to take a look as well. Note that there is nothing inherently wrong with a personal website, providing it is used as sources of information about themselves in articles about themselves, so long as there is no reasonable doubt about who wrote it as per WP:RS. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:56, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
The last example is interesting. I don't think a business's website should be considered any better a source than a "personal" website. The reason we strongly favour newspapers and publishing houses is that we can have some certainty that they exercise editorial control over the material they publish, and will make some effort at fact checking. That cannot be considered true of businesses in general, although they are a degree more reliable than individuals on account of being more scared of being sued! They also tend to have their content checked, but you cannot count on this to the degree you can with the NYT. I'd say that the policy should reflect that (although it's purely an application of common sense) by saying that a business's website can only be relied on to be a source for statements about itself, in precisely the same way as a personal website. The plus for a business website is that there can be little doubt that it wrote the stuff about itself. Grace Note 02:52, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
And about the .edu domain. Even if the university claims copyright over the site, that does not imply that it checks the material on it. I think that academics' sites, unless they reproduce material published elsewhere, should be treated in precisely the same way as anyone else's site. Grace Note 02:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Read this page Wikipedia:No original research#Expert editors and when these other sites are viewed, the question should be, is this person an expert in their subject matter? Do these pages themselves quote reliable sources? Wjhonson 01:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be an awful lot of reverting here. Can you all try to sort it out at this talk page? It looks bad to have an edit war over a policy page. I've protected the page for the moment. AnnH ♫ 00:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Ann. I think the version we have here is relatively stable and we really should talk it out before making changes. Grace Note 02:47, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
In the section on "sources" perhaps we should add, at the outset, that "When adding a verifiable content it is essential to provide enough information that the source can be found and checked. The more precise the content, the more precise the source must be." or something like that. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree it is implied. I just wonder if we could benefit from something more explicit. it is not a big deal and if no one is enthusiasitc about this we can drop it. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Is a student newspaper a valid primary source of a racial slur in regards to a living persons page? A student newspaper has said that a particular media personality made a racial slur to a teen. This quote is not attributed at any other location other then blogs that link back to the student newspaper. Is this a valid primary source under these conditions? -- zero faults |sockpuppets| 16:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
What should we do when multiple verifiable and reliable sources contain conflicting information? Peteresch 17:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Is anyone wed to the "threshhold of is verifiability, not truth" line in the introduction? It serves to obscure the matter by a catchy slogan rather than just directly stating what the policy is. —
Centrx→
talk •
20:32, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I think the "policy in a nutshell" should, with the some modifications, be the basis for a first paragraph. This is the purpose of an introduction. WP:NPOV just repeats the "policy in a nutshell" in its introduction. The first paragraph of WP:NOR would not make much sense to an average person without reading the "policy in a nutshell", which on that page serves as the introduction. An introduction should be direct and a summary, which is what the "policy in a nutshell" is trying to be. Either the "policy in a nutshell" has to be recognized as the first paragraph of the article, bolded and separated as the over-all description, and the rest of the introduction doesn't need to repeat it, or the policy in a nutshell is just a duplicate of the first paragraph of the introduction. — Centrx→ talk • 22:03, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
In my view, the centre of the dispute over this page and over this policy as a whole is that "verifiable" most commonly means "checkable as true". Its meaning contains an idea of truth that we don't want to convey. This would be resolved, I think, simply by renaming the policy WP:Checkability and rewriting it to be clear that what we want is that any information/material/stuff/"facts"/views/whatever in our articles must be checkable against reputable sources without reference to whether it is true. Again, this is a solution that is so stunningly simple and obvious that it has no hope whatsoever of being accepted because it's just so much more fun to battle over the most meaningless bollocks we can come up with. Grace Note 04:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
All information included in Wikipedia must be verifiable. The criterion for inclusion is verifiability, not truth. We seek truth but do not lead the way. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, because Wikipedia does not publish original thought or original research. Fred Bauder 02:19, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Jeezus. Instead of writing "verifiable in this context means...", why not use a word that does not need its context defined? Fred, I don't think we should mention the t-word at all. We do not seek the truth. That would be a vain quest, because as has been noted, there are often several different truths! We just report what others have claimed the truth is. All that this policy needs to say is that you must be able to check that "stuff" in here has appeared elsewhere, where "stuff" is whatever word we come up with for the substance of what articles contain. Grace Note 08:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
All information included in Wikipedia must be verifiable. The criterion for inclusion is verifiability. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Material which has not yet been published in a reliable source may not be included in a Wikipedia article.
Wikipedia:Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's three content-guiding policies. The other two are Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should therefore try to familiarize themselves with all three. These three policies are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Their policy pages may be edited only to better reflect practical explanation and application of these principles. Fred Bauder 17:31, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Did I miss something? I don't recall seeing a consensus for removing truth from the intro. I won't revert yet, but I bet someone else will shortly. -- Donald Albury( Talk) 17:46, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I think that ""Verifiability, not truth" is an important thing to stress, and I wouldn't want to see it disappear." perhaps could be dealt with in a section further down the page. Verifiability, not truth, could perhaps be the header. Fred Bauder 19:06, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Mary, mother of Jesus is actually a very bad title, using, as it does, the heretical doctrine of the Nestorians, a decidedly minority viewpoint. Fred Bauder 03:33, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Could admins please quit abusing their privilege and editing this article while it is protected? The rest of us have to try to sort out the content here. To watch you impose your views when we cannot sticks in the craw. Grace Note 08:15, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Changes must be agreed on the discussion page before implementing. — Centrx→ talk • 13:32, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Changed my mind and reverted, but please explain why:
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, because Wikipedia does not publish original thought or original research.
Wikipedia:Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's three content-guiding policies. The other two are Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should therefore try to familiarize themselves with all three. These three policies are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Their policy pages may be edited only to better reflect practical explanation and application of these principles.
is better than:
All information included in Wikipedia must be verifiable. The criterion for inclusion is verifiability. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Material which has not yet been published in a reliable source may not be included in a Wikipedia article.
Wikipedia:Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's three content-guiding policies. The other two are Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should therefore try to familiarize themselves with all three. These three policies are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Their policy pages may be edited only to better reflect practical explanation and application of these principles.
Fred Bauder 18:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
(For those who find collation a nuisance, here's the diff. The second paragraph is unchanged.)
:/
—
mjb
20:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)"These three policies are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Their policy pages may be edited only to better reflect practical explanation and application of these principles."
Huh? Was there a coup d'etat while I was out working? Kim Bruning 22:46, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I have created a new template, {{ failed verification}} that bears the same relation to {{ citecheck}} that {{ fact}} bears to {{ verify}}. This will help distinguish at a glance among three cases:
I can think of a couple of articles where this template could help focus on the actual point of dispute. Robert A.West ( Talk) 19:27, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I mentioned this above already, but the page appears to be protected so I'll have to ask someone else to fix it.
"These three policies are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Their policy pages may be edited only to better reflect practical explanation and application of these principles."
Could someone look at this? There's some rather misleading text on there at the moment. Things like non-negotiability and no editing this page and other such nonsense that don't really go well with Wikipedia:No binding decisions. Even the foundation issues are theoretically negotiable (though admittedly not so much in practice).
Kim Bruning 20:06, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. This is not a mere guideline; this is the fundamental, essential property of Wikipedia. Encyclopedias in general, and this encyclopedia specifically, are not written from various biased points of view, nor do they premiere research, and they are based on authoritative sources.
This is the theory, this is the practice, this is the enforced policy. The overwhelming majority of Wikipedia editors follow these principles, though they may not necessarily agree on their exact practical implications. If an article is not written according to these policies, it is revised to be in accord with these policies. If a topic is a theory out of someone's head, or if it is impossible to verify, its article is deleted. If a tract cannot be rewritten to be neutral, it is deleted. This is done by editors, this is done by administrators, this is done by the owners of the servers. See also [3] and [4].
If you mean that it is "negotiable" insofar as a few people do try to flout or negotiate it on articles, the end result is still that these policies are followed; on a wiki the article may for a time not follow the policy, but this does not mean that the policy is overridden. If you mean that it is "negotiable" insofar as editors refine the policy pages, this does not mean that the principle itself is not followed. "Discussion" of the policy or principle does not mean that is not the policy and principle.
This page must convey to article editors that they are obliged to follow this policy; it must convey to policy editors that they are obliged to follow the principle. Any revision of these principles would not be the same process by which this policy page is revised, and it would need to actually convince those thousands upon thousands of editors who agree with it, among them those well-respected, long-standing members of the community who administer and take part in administering the site and the encyclopedia. — Centrx→ talk • 21:45, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Supporting Kim on this one. Also the current "freezing" of the WP:V page in a way that only sysops can edit it seems in contradiction with the outcome of the poll held not so long ago at Wikipedia:Editing policy pages: no, it is not OK to make policy pages only editable by sysops on a long-term base. WP:NPOV can do without it (I don't think it was ever protected for more than a few weeks), I don't see why WP:V couldn't.
See also my last comment at Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources#Bulletin boards, wikis, and posts to Usenet. -- Francis Schonken 13:31, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Centrx and Titoxd above. An unverifiable encyclopedia is worthless. WP:NBD does not contradict WP:V, as WP:NBD says "some decisions [by Jimmy Wales, arbcom, and the Foundation] are binding until those who made the decision recall it," Jimmy Wales says WP:NPOV is non-negotiable, and WP:V complements and is required by WP:NPOV. As far as editors who continually introduce unverifiable POV material being a "precious commodity," I disagree. -- Dragonfiend 14:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I don't see what would be lost by enforcing policy. Anyone who edits and inserts their personal opinion is not volunteering for Wikipedia. Are you proposing that each article be fiefdoms of editors who can do whatever they want? That's what happens if there is no policy. — Centrx→ talk • 07:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Once the principles become negotiable, however, it becomes no longer an "encyclopedia". Insofar as the principles may be negotiated out, Wikipedia becomes something essentially other than what it is, always has been, and was intended to be. — Centrx→ talk • 20:12, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
a term used on Wikipedia to refer to material placed into articles by Wikipedia editors that has not been previously published by a reliable source. It includes unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, and ideas; or any new interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts, or arguments that appears to advance a position or, in the words of Wikipedia's co-founder Jimbo Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation."
undent. If something is common knowledge, then it has been published obviously. The mere fact that you cannot lay your hands on the citation at the moment for something like "The Sun is Shiny" doesn't mean its OR. You seemed to be implying (see up) that anything unsourced was OR and that's just not true. Wjhonson 14:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I didn't use the CMYK example by accident. Most people will agree that blue is blue, you see, even without a specific text source. Some things are just common knowlege in a particular field. Many things are very easy to verify by trivial experiment. If an article starts out unsourced, it's no big deal. We can add sources later. It's often unlikely to be very wrong, and we'll have more articles, which is good! Removing information just because it's not referenced is probably not as great an idea as you might think either.
Of course, by the time we try to make the article featured, all statements do need to be referenced.
The one place where we need to be careful to make our statements verifiable is when we talk about living persons. It's important. Living persons might be harmed in their daily lives by what we write. Kim Bruning 23:18, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
@MjB: AvB's paraphrasing was a misquote. I was speaking about WP:NPOV ("absolute and non-negotiable" per Jimbo [6] [7]), not about WP:V. And AvB had mutilated the quote: the discussion where it was taken from can be found here: Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view/Archive 021#Infallibility - a meta-question re non-negotiable. The discussion on that talk page continued in Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view/Archive 021#Non-negotiable, where I referred to User:Jimbo Wales/Statement of principles, point 6: "The mailing list will remain open, well-advertised, and will be regarded as the place for meta-discussions about the nature of Wikipedia. Very limited meta-discussion of the nature of the Wikipedia should be placed on the site itself."
I had that quote of Jimbo's principles followed by this:
Returning to the proposed text ("The fundamental principles of the three policies are non-negotiable and their policy pages may only be edited to better reflect practical explanation and application of these principles."):
-- Francis Schonken 07:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
To perhaps clarify some things about "non-negotiable" policies and principles (with care to distinguish between these words):
To respond to one point with regard to Verifiability specifically:
— Centrx→ talk • 20:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
The information must be possible to check in reliable sources, but it is not necessary that there be specific citation to where to check. This policy currently blurs this a bit, but that is the encyclopedic principle. A chemistry textbook or Britannica doesn't have a footnote every sentence pointing to where it got the information, but a reader can still verify it by looking at any major source. We need citations on Wikipedia because, whereas Britannica makes sure that the articles are written by at least a nominal expert in the field, and are reviewed by other experts and fact-checkers, information added to a Wikipedia article could have just as well been added by a quack. As the principle, we don't accept the authority of the random editor, but this does not mean that obvious facts are not allowed, or that uncited implausibilities are not provisionally permitted. The Verifiability page currently has a summary of things that are in Wikipedia:Reliable sources or Wikipedia:Citing sources, but that is not essential to its meaning. — Centrx→ talk • 07:12, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Meh, people should never be able to just talk their way out of having to provide a source when a claim is challenged. If we can include original research just because we happen to feel like it, that makes the project a real joke, if you ask me.
What the people who have this fear of WP:V don't seem to get is that only dubious claims get removed... if something's uncited, that's fine, so long as no one thinks the claim is incorrect. If people think the claim is wrong, and a source can't be found for it, then the claim should be removed... does anyone really think we shouldn't do it that way? But no one is going to run around deleting articles like Ice cream because they don't cite sources... acting like that is a logical result of "non-negotiable" is just silly. -- W.marsh 19:45, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Recently, I've run into the problems Tony is describing while I was editing a stub on the Enteric Nervous System. My content was deleted twice, each time. within hours of my edit. The stub already had a section of sources and I was merely summarizing. A cursory google search brings up a page of sites with essentially the same information. The requirement of citing every paragraph would mean attaching the same list to each paragraph. When I protested I was repeatedly referred to WP:V.
It seems to me that our primary concern should be our audience. We need to label every article that is inadequately. sourced and provide an index to the featured articles. h2g2 does that. They have levels of peer review and avoid the need for more than minimal censorship.
Being revert happy is not the only way to solve the references problem. I'd personally rather let unsourced information remain a while with a flag so other Wikipedians can track it down, Thats what collaborative publishing is all about but I was told that its against policy. But you could hear an important fact, on the radio for example and not have time to track it down. Why not delegate to someone who has the time? References are always a work in progress because authorities can publish mistakes that are later corrected. We can't expect the average Wikipedian to have the time and diligence of Lessig but we could put reference chasing on our todo list.
I'd like to share Tony's optimism but its not consistent with what I've seen of organizational behavior. From what I've seen they move to more rigidity and bureaucracy and ultimately ossification. I'm not saying it always happens but I haven't experienced an exception. Eventually the structure forks ( called a startup in the corporate world ). The parent may still be useful but like duck tape, handy but not cutting edge. Cayte 00:03, 25 July 2006 (UTC)Cayte
Assume that a corporation has published to its web page a press release regarding a piece of proposed legislation. Clearly, the policy as phrased would permit the mention of this press release in an article discussing the corporation. Would this policy permit the mention of the press release in an article discussing the legislation itself? - O^O
Phi Alpha Literary Society Precis 12:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed some work being carried out on this article. Is there a simple summary of the outstanding issues, or has everything been resolved now? Stephen B Streater 18:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I do this suggestion as a result of these recent/ongoing discussions:
In both cases an editor contended (s)he had provided reliable sources, so the thus referenced assertions should be included in Wikipedia:
In both cases the original editor contended (s)he had done enough, while providing reliable sources (so conforming to Burden of evidence), so (s)he needn't do any additional effort to provide complementary sources that would satisfy the other editors.
So I propose to extend the WP:V#Burden of evidence section so that it makes clear that the Burden of evidence doesn't stop before reasonably accessible reliable sources can be given, which also demonstrate that the statement proposed for inclusion in Wikipedia is more than a tiny minority view.
This might be WP:BEANS (it would be for most of us), and a more handsome formulation of the idea is surely possible, but it might cut short several lingering discussions (for example I also think about "Hubbard's Lecture 7203C05" proposed as a source for the Suppressive Person article, but largely unavailable/unaccessible to anyone else than the single Wikipedian that appeared to have a copy of it - discussions have been going on for weeks). -- Francis Schonken 07:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
"Must allow independent verification" seems a good formulation of the principle too.
Re. "easy to put on the internet": not always: for example, that might be a copyright infringement in some cases (it would in the "Lecture 7203C05" case if I understand the context of that debate, and it would be for most journals and magazines published in the 20th century).
I was still thinking about another example, in Constructions of Subjectivity in Franz Schubert's Music four versions of an essay by Susan McClary are mentioned: (1) a 1990 lecture; (2) a 1992 lecture; (3) a publication in the Gay/Lesbian Study Group Newsletter; (4) publication in Queering the Pitch: The New Gay and Lesbian Musicology, ISBN 0415907535. The Wikipedia article contends that all four versions are different... Since only the fourth version is widely available, how could *independent verification* of the assertion that this version is the most "sanitized" of the four be conducted? -- Francis Schonken 08:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Look at the Policy section on the main page. Item 3 says
It would be helpful to replace this by
In fact, it's rather surprising that the Policy section doesn't once stress the need for accessibility, which is obviously the cornerstone of Verifiability. If you'll forgive a little cynicism, this suggestion will never be implemented, because of the petty bickering that would ensue about the need to make precise the meaning of "reasonably accessible". As for SBS's comment, if editor Mr.X cites a reliable source in his possession that nobody else has, then I would think to myself "I don't know Mr.X, why should I trust that he quotes accurately from his source?" If Mr.X puts a copy of this reliable source on his personal website, I'd be much happier, but I'd still wonder about the reliability of the website purporting to reproduce the source. Precis 09:06, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
It's an unworkable solution. There are millions of rare books which only exist in say 2, 10, 30, or 100 libraries worldwide. Where do you draw the line at "reasonable" ? It's so vague it's unusable. We are however, conducting discussion on some of these very points at WP:RS and I would suggest this move there, as "accessibility" is one of the issues we've been discussing. You are suggesting, that if I happen to have a rare book by, for example A.P. Sinnett which I do, an early copy with contains additional text, not in the final version, that I cannot cite these additional text, since I, the editor, would then have to *prove* that this particular edition, exists in more than 20 libraries say in the world. That puts an almost impossible burden upon editors who tend to work on obscure subject matter. I cannot cite the Journal of Contemporary Greek Archaeology unless I can also prove that this particular volume exists in more than 20 libraries? Wjhonson 20:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I regard this as squabbling. It like arguing that "reasonable doubt" is an unworkable concept in law, because it is unclear where to draw the line. Precis 22:44, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
The WP:V page currently states: "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source,, and surprise, surprise, nobody is using this to suggest mandatory use of online sources. Yet you say that the two lil words "reasonably accessible" may result in DISASTER. My oh my, thanks for scaring me straight. I'll say no more on the subject here. Precis 23:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
One solution might be to establish a project to check sources, not on line. This would be slow; I would be willing to look up some things, but I have my own editing. Septentrionalis 21:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
The current policy for when self-published sources can be used in articles other than about the author reads:
My feeling is that this is overly restrictive. I understand that it isn't meant to be an all-inclusive list, but experience tells me that many editors treat it as if it were, and automatically rule out self-published sources that do not fit one of these two categories. My main concern is over the word "researcher"; while this is an excellent standard for articles about academic subjects, it makes it much more difficult to use self-published sources in subject areas that are non-academic in nature, and in which therefore there are few or no professional researchers to publish such articles.
I would suggest a change to make it read either "well-known, professional researcher or expert in a relevant field" or more simply "well-known expert in a relevant field". (I'm not sure whether or not "professional" should remain in this latter case) As an example of the kind of article that could be referenced under this new rule, but couldn't on the old one, consider any legal commentary published on Becker-Posner Blog by Richard Posner. As a US Appeal Court Judge, his opinion on such matters really ought to be reliable enough for citation here, but with the current situation, this would not normally be allowed.
Any comments? JulesH 21:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Notable expert sounds like good phrasing to me. Citations of the article is probably a good way of assessing, yes: if an article is cited in a positive way in a reliable source, then we can probably transfer at least some of that reliability onto the original article, however it was published. JulesH 23:47, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Another modification would be to change the condition about self-published sources from related to his notability to related to his field of notability; which is I think what is meant (that is, we can't quote Joe Expert's blog on what he likes for breakfast, unless he is a cereal taster). Septentrionalis 17:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
OK; perhaps Posner was a bad choice -- he is well published, and as pointed out you can find out just about anything relevant about his opinions from well-known third party sources. Let's take a slightly different tack: C. E. Petit is a well-known and respected copyright lawyer. He's perhaps best known for representing Harlan Ellison is his case against Robertson et al (see bottom of Harlan Ellison#Controversy). He isn't widely published, except on his own web site. He has some interesting theories concerning the applicability of copyright law to fan fiction, that could be usefully incorporated into legal issues with fan fiction. But he doesn't appear to be a reliable source. At least, not the way most people read this page. Is he? I think he should be. JulesH 15:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Quote:
Should this apply to non-corporate entities? For instance, if it were deemed relevant that a particular individual help some opinion, would it be reasonable to go to a self-published source for that opinion, even in an article not about that person (but, rather, on the subject of the opinion)? I'm assuming the person's opinion is deemed notable enough for inclusion. JulesH 15:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Is there any present need for protection of this page? Can we try an experiment? Septentrionalis 17:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Take for example, how much the Mayor of San Francisco paid for his townhouse. This information is published by the County government, in the lands records. Anyone can go to the courthouse and look it up. We are allowed to use primary documents, that are published by a reputable publisher. I don't think anyone would argue that the San Francisco land office is disreputable. The information is published, accessible, and by a reputable publisher. So I go look it up and cite it — $2.5 million dollars for a townhouse! Is it reasonable to expect, anyone who wants to know, to come to San Francisco to look it up. Remembering that the land office does not do research and won't answer requests by phone or mail. You have to come in-person or hire someone to come in-person. This isn't a hypothetical situation by the way. Wjhonson 07:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I think the standard should be this: If I cannot order a copy on-line (at a reasonable price), or through inter-library loan, then it is not accessible enough to count. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:26, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
? -- Francis Schonken 11:58, 30 July 2006 (UTC)Without diminishing other requirements regarding reliability and publication, sources used for reference or quotation in Wikipedia need to be accessible or available to other Wikipedians, that is: other Wikipedians should be able to order or view a copy on-line (at a reasonable price) and/or a copy should be obtainable through a major inter-library loan network.
Again, and sorry if I have been lately the throwing cold water on these discussions, the reason for these discussions fail me. Let me ask some questions about Wjohnson initial example, with the hope that it may focus the discussion:
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
If I lived in Tuvalu, then I'd have to rely on other editors to verify facts only published in the list of US libraries. Similarly, if I lived in the US, I might have to rely on editors in the UK for published works only available in the UK. I don't think it makes sense to say every editor has to be able to verify everything cheaply. If we say this, we may also have to throw away lots of other articles like Gromov's theorem on groups of polynomial growth which the typical editor will not be able to understand, let alone verify. Stephen B Streater 21:48, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
And what WP:LIVING says is quite clear:
Undent. I don't see how the example violates WP:NOR, and the simple fact of what he paid is not an opinion. If a reader draws an inference from the fact, that's not stated, that burden isn't on the editor. WP:NOR does state that primary sources may be used, which is contrary to what you stated above. Wjhonson 06:24, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
In my London flat, I discover a letter that Handel wrote to Bach in 1749. In a Wikipedia article on Handel, I quote from this letter. How could I make this citation consonant with WP-policy? First I could scan the letter and place it on my website. Next, I could ask several well known experts on the history of baroque music to confirm (on their websites) the authenticity of the letter I have displayed. My website is now a reliable published source for Handel's letter, suitable for Wikipedia. Precis 12:39, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
The experts based their assessments on the original letter, of course. Their public confirmation (that the original letter was authentic and that my website faithfully reproduces it) most certainly makes my display reliable. There is no need for me to wait until such a time that the letter is written up in some journal. Precis 13:52, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
The first two entries above offer no specific objections, whereas Coolcaesar provides an interesting analysis which raises a question. First, the historians are internationally known scholars in the field, with long established websites. It stretches credulity to suggest that they are fake experts. These are the very experts that magazines like Science or National Geographic have come to in the past to verify documents. By placing their (independent) analyses of the Handel letter on their websites, they ARE putting their credibility on the line. So here is my question. If along with their letters confirming authenticity they placed scans of the Handel letter on their own websites (instead of just providing links to my scan), would you still challenge citations to these experts' websites? Precis 20:23, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with SV's stenographer example, but that analogy doesn't apply here. The Handel letter on my site would ordinarily not be reliable, but it inherits reliability by virtue of the published letters of authenticity from independent experts. In short, my site becomes as reliable as the stenographer's. I have not heard a reason yet to indicate why the letter placed on an expert's sites is more reliable than the identical letter placed on my site, given that the independent experts' sites all point to my letter while vouching for the letter's authenticity. Their authentication is no different in principle than editorial oversight. We shouldn't lock in the notion that oversight can come only from the publishing industry. That's what I had in mind by "thinking outside the box". SBS is correct that I'd have to verify that the letter on my site isn't altered. (That's why I'd used the word "demonstrably" earlier.) This could be ensured in a number of ways. For example, the experts could all have low resolution versions of the letter on their sites. Another method might be to type the letter onto my User page so that months later someone could check the History for comparison. Comments: (1) Waiting for a journal to publish the letter is obviously the best course. But suppose the composers had been lesser known, important enough for WP but not important enough for a journal? (2) One reason I might want to keep the only high resolution version on my personal site is so I could charge a fee for downloading the handwritten copy. Precis 13:26, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Thank you all for your input, but I'm afraid I've heard nothing convincing so far. All seem to agree that if the letter were published on the experts' site, then WP could quote from it. Yet if the experts point to a copy of the letter on some anonymous website and vouch for its authenticity (and the copies provably have identical wording), some say the copy on the anonymous site may NOT be quoted. Why not? Dalbury's literal interpretation of policy WP:RS seems to be splitting hairs. I would trust the authenticated copy on the anonymous site as much as an identical copy on the experts' site, and I've yet to hear a reason why I shouldn't. Precis 21:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Sure, the owner of the anonymous site wants to make money from his find, and does not want to relinquish control of the high resolution copy of the letter. He's the kind of guy who finds a strad in his attic and won't let anyone play it. I'll close with a story.
A Wikipedia story, by Precis
A Wikipedian (W) and his date (D) are in my living room, having paid admission to see the Strad that I found in my attic.
W: I don't know why you dragged me here. That's not a strad.
D: What do you mean? The top appraisers in the US authenticated it and gave this address. And look, I downloaded this high resolution photo from Bein & Fushi. This violin looks exactly like it.
W: If this violin were in the offices of Bein & Fushi, then I'd say you have a point. But I don't know who lives here. Precis 21:52, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, here's a real example. Look at this old version of the Barbara Bauer article, specifically the last paragraph of the Controversy section. Here we have an example of quoting a primary source (a list to a google groups search that shows results from 1997 onwards, proving without doubt that the "negative online discussions" mentioned in the previous sentence exist) that was later removed by an editor, along with the sentence that it backed up, as not providing verifiability. I'm personally pretty sure that is verifiable: anyone can look at it and immediately see that the sentence is true. But it falls outside of the letter of what was discussed here, so it has been removed. Does common sense not suggest that this should be allowed to stand? JulesH 06:55, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Any article that accepts an organization's puffery without using outside sources needs improvement. Robert A.West (Talk) 19:03, 31 July 2006 (UTC) Good point. I made some reversions which should provide impetus for improvement. Precis 20:33, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
When you say "verifiability, not truth", doesen't that mean we could be telling a lie to everyone, as long it is published in some kind of media? Pacific Coast Highway ( blah • I'm a hot toe picker) 01:16, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Cranks often say that we are not competent to argue with their pet theory, and should therefore include it as The Truth, explaining why all other theories are wrong. They're right: We're not qualified; if anyone is, it is the whole body of scholarship on the subject. We are qualified to see whether the theory has been generally accepted (and the answer is almost always no).
It is almost certainly true that the consensus of scholarship will prove to be wrong on some things. But it is not Wikipedia's business to decide which. Septentrionalis 02:18, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Responding to the original question, as phrased, I see virtually no way for a Wikipedia editor to lie within an article and still be within policy. Consider a false statement, Q. There are three cases:
Yes, occasionally an editor feels that he or she has irrefutable personal knowledge that contradicts what the reliable sources have published. Most often, that "knowledge" will be doubtful or incomplete. Even eyewitnesses routinely misremember or misinterpret what they saw. There's not much we can do about the rare exception. Robert A.West ( Talk) 22:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
An editor has posted a request here on how to indicate, on a living person, that you have permission from them, to post details from their biography, that although created by the subject, were published in an otherwise reliable source. The content was previously removed as a copyvio, but the source, is releasing copyright. How do you handle that, so other editors are aware on the page? Please respond to that talk page, not here. Wjhonson 02:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
The change I made was reverted ( here) with the comment "rv, I don't see a clear consensus to make the change, even if it does look benign".
In the discussion about the change at Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#Suggestion_concerning_self-published_sources there were multiple responses that seemed in agreement that the change should be made, and nobody seemed to object strongly to it. Is this not enough consensus to make such a small change to this page? If it isn't, how should such consensus be achieved? JulesH 07:37, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Oftentimes a Wikipedia article will need to mention as a matter of course that rumors exist on a particular subject, or that certain outside opinions exist, etc. For instance, a lot of articles require a "controversy" section to really give complete coverage of a subject.
In that case, wouldn't it be appropriate at times to link to a blog or other unverifiable source, in order to prove "some people are saying this?" Or does it need to be to a 3rd party reliable news source that then quotes the unverifiable source?? heh... I suppose you could argue that linking to the 3rd party source avoids doing original research, but at the same time that also seems like a silly hoop to jump through...
An example I did recently was in MTV#Moral influence. Someone had asked for a citation for the sentence "Critics have said that MTV was like 'pornography for children,'" so I linked to a blog that did just that [9]. Is that appropriate, or is that a WP:VERIFY problem that I should revert? -- Jaysweet 15:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)