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Wikipedia and Wikipedia users do not give legal advice
Does this mean if one publishes more than 100 copies they must also maintain a mirror web site of the entire Wikipedia site if the URL at Wikipedia is to be considered unstable? Is that really reasonable? Why would the article disappear and if it was moved wouldn't the previous name be left as a redirect? Of course if Wikipedia disappeared that could create a problem, but is that a possibility? Just a thought. — Alex756 21:51, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Removed from article:
To clarify my concerns about the page history, this is my response to the reasons given in the article, that the Wikipedia page history:
There are various interpretations. The interpretation you favour is more conservative, but also less practical. My favoured alternative interpretation is more questionable from a legal POV, but also more practical. A more conservative interpretation still is that Wikipedia is systematically non-compliant, and no legal copying is possible. Third parties have to choose which interpretation they favour, weighing legal risk against other factors. Martin 00:35, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
All I want is for this page to tell the truth, no matter how inconvenient that may be. The truth is that currently there are some uncertainties regards what is required for a verbatim copy of a Wikipedia article to be compliant. If you manage to change the truth, I'll be happy for the article to change to reflect that. Martin 00:45, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
To make one thing clear - I know that both interpretations have problems. Both of their problems could be patched up in various ways, both technically and legally. My problem with your favoured interpretation is that including the entire history verbatim, even in printed copies, is incredibly impractical, and I suspect not what most contributors actually want. It seems to me that the desire is rather one of (a) author credit and (b) requiring a link back. Fortunately, both of these things can be done in my interpretation, and I hope this will be done in a future version of mediawiki. Martin 23:01, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
edit summary: "some changes and removals to clarify what the GFDL says"... yeah, I'd like more explanation than that, please.
Some content regards the handling of links - removed the two legally questionable exceptions. Why? Section two just says "verbatim copying". Verbatim means "word for word", so it should be entirely possible to change formatting details like links while still making a verbatim copy. This is what happens when I take a print out of a Wikipedia page, for example.
"Wikipedia's current License and Copyright Statement is itself questionable" - just removed. Well, it is questionable, certainly. Would you like me to explain why?
"Embedding a Wikipedia Document within a larger webpage" - removed "legally questionable". Well, it is questionable - the question is whether such embeds are considered "aggregation" or "derivative works". That question would have to be resolved in court - there have been some cases around this subject, IIRC, but nothing conclusive.
"Relying on Wikipedia is legally questionable because pages on Wikipedia may be deleted from public view" - removed. Well, why? This is just true - some pages on Wikipedia are deleted, and to the extent that this happens, Wikipedia will not be a machine-readable copy of the distributed text, and thus the sublicensee will not be in compliance with the text of the GFDL. So, it's questionable. People can do this, but they need to be aware that there may be issues with doing so. Martin 22:47, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
As we have a formal statement from Jimbo that the aggregation interpretation is go, I've used this to draft a couple of sections.
We also want buy in from our contributors, so in due course such a statement should go into wikipedia:Submission Standards. This will allow redistributors to rely a little more confidently on that interpretation. Martin 13:01, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I have a small static site called [ fixed reference] which I am trying to keep compliant with the various developments in interpretation of licence, but I have to say that the history is the most problematic. In principle I don't see why this discussion assumes the edit history contains adequate history in evolution of the article: a lot of the text is built by team on the talk pages as well: do we need local copies of all versions of all those to be compliant? I for one do not want future users of my work to have to carry hundreds of pages of discussion and versions around before they are allowed to use it and trying to include all this in, say, a CD version for schools is ridiculous: so what do we do? What if there is indecent material in the discussion pages: are we legally obliged to include it in a version for five year olds? Britannica must be laughing all the way to the bank. I would take an aggressive line that stating the content comes from WikiPedia and that WP will prvide the next step of information up the chain. This is the only workable route for this project to have any value to anyone. 99% of it comes under the additional agreement submitters have accepted "If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it." in any case. -- BozMo |talk 09:08, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The section Title page does not really say if the title page (From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) should exist in the verbatim copy. I'd prefer not because the text is quite naïve and changing over the time. (Actually, I am not doing any verbatim copies but the question is interesting) -- Etu 02:02, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I think that you do not have to include the the title page. Brianjd 09:57, 2004 Dec 27 (UTC)
License and Copyright Statement - currently, "All text is available under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License (see Copyrights for details). Disclaimers.".
Note the link to GNU FDL, which redirects to GNU Free Documentation License. However, the actual license and copyright statement links to Wikipedia:Text of the GNU Free Documentation License.
From Wikipedia:Verbatim copying:
It's my understanding of the GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) that we must change the title unless the original publisher of "a" (does that mean "any"?) previous version gives permission to do use the same title as that version, in which case it is up to us.
In summary: The Wikimedia Foundation cannot make that restriction. Brianjd 06:38, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)
If I remember correctly, then on the MonoBook skin, for a short while, there was no "Title Page".
That seems a bit vague. I would expect at least a link to an example of such an article ("Document" according to the GFDL). Brianjd 06:38, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)
As the GFDL was never intended for wiki articles, things get complicated.
I don't think the GFDL was ever intended for use by non-lawyers. The GFDL already seems a lot more complicated than it needs to be. Brianjd 06:38, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)
Some interpret the GFDL as applied to Wikipedia such that the "history" link (known as the "page history" in non-standard skins) is the GFDL History Section.
"Non-standard skins"? Can't we just say "some skins"? And I don't think that the page pointed to by the "history" link - not the "history" link itself of course - is the GFDL History section, because the GFDL History section needs to be a "section" of the "Document" in the usual sense, and the Wikipedia history is not. Brianjd 06:38, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)
There are some issues with this interpretation, making it legally questionable: the "page history"...
I would rather see a more consistent wording:
Here you have more freedom, chiefly because Wikipedia's current License and Copyright Statement is itself questionable.
Well I hope they're doing something about it then! Brianjd 06:38, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)
You must link to a local copy of the GFDL.
See Wikipedia talk:Text of the GNU Free Documentation License#Why is it on Wikipedia? for some more discussion regarding this point. I note there that the Wikimedia Foundation's website ( [2]) doesn't seem to have a local copy of the GFDL - the links at the bottom of pages point to http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html - and here that Wikipedia is the only wiki I know that has a local copy of the GFDL. Brianjd 06:38, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)
If you accept this interpretation, then you would need to print out the entire "page history" of the article (you may need to URL-hack to get the entire page history on a single webpage).
This is unacceptable. I don't think this needs much explanation. Brianjd 06:38, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)
In any event, your ability to redistribute Wikipedia articles beyond the terms of the GFDL are extended (at least in the United States) by the fair use and first-sale doctrines.
I don't know much about those but I presume that they are subject to change. Why are we singling out the United States here? Brianjd 06:38, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)
If you are copying more than 100 copies, then section 3 (copying in quantity) comes into play. Chiefly this means that you must include either:
Relying on Wikipedia is legally questionable because pages on Wikipedia may be deleted from public view, or Wikipedia as a whole may be taken down for legal or financial reasons. However, it is clearly the easiest solution, and Wikipedia is pretty stable.
Is this really specific to Wikipedia? This doesn't seem to be consistent with the GFDL, in spirit at least. Brianjd 06:38, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)
I've removed the vague sentence, "In any event, your ability to redistribute Wikipedia articles beyond the terms of the GFDL are extended (at least in the United States) by the fair use and first-sale doctrines." Fair use rights are limited, and there is no guarantee it will apply to the redistribution. First-sale doctrine does not apply unless they are transferring the copy they have(without keeping their own). Of course, they might then get another copy, but on the whole things somewhat questionable. At any rate, we don't need to encourage GFDL non-compliance. Als I'd like to address the "copying in quantity" section. The GFDL text says in the "verbatim copying" section, "If you distribute a large enough number of copies you must also follow the conditions in section 3." It doesn't say if you distribute a large enough number of printed copies, so I think this applies in general to web sites too. The "Copying in quantity" section contains the text "If you publish printed copies (or copies in media that commonly have printed covers)...". That paragraph (and the closely related following one) doesn't apply to web sites. However, I think the next part, which says, "If you publish or distribute Opaque copies of the Document numbering more than 100, you must either include a machine-readable Transparent copy along with each Opaque copy, or state in or with each Opaque copy a computer-network location from which the general network-using public has access to download using public-standard network protocols a complete Transparent copy of the Document, free of added material." I think that applies to all copies. I've tried to clarify the situation on the page by moving some things around. Please look over the Wikipedia:Verbatim copying#Copying in quantity and Wikipedia:Verbatim copying#Printed copies sections and see what you think. Superm401 | Talk 20:02, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
It seems that [3] is a verbatim copy of Wikipedia's Wine_making article. There's no license or source information on vinopinions.org, at least none that I can find. I'm sure there must be a process for reporting and investigating this, but I can't find it. Gregmg 22:46, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Am I allowed to copy an article and then change the content?
I've added the "essay" template to this page. Previously it was not clear whether or not this page was intended to be "official" policy or not. Looking at the page history, the page has not been worked on by many editors, and it doesn't look to me that it has received detailed scrutiny from experts in the topic, or from the Wikimedia foundation. So for the time being, I think it's best to view it as an opinion piece - hence the essay template. Ideally it might be good to get more input from experts, or the Wikimedia foundation, for this page. Enchanter 00:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Given that it is mandatory to include this text in order to satisfy the GFDL, surely the Wikimedia foundation must grant permission to use the Wikipedia trademark in that way? Martin
Whilst running a Google search on the Rapier missile I came across the following copy [4] on an advertising website which omits the GFDL licence. Does anyone enforce the licence requirements ? John 20:59, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Essays Low‑impact | ||||||||||
|
Wikipedia and Wikipedia users do not give legal advice
Does this mean if one publishes more than 100 copies they must also maintain a mirror web site of the entire Wikipedia site if the URL at Wikipedia is to be considered unstable? Is that really reasonable? Why would the article disappear and if it was moved wouldn't the previous name be left as a redirect? Of course if Wikipedia disappeared that could create a problem, but is that a possibility? Just a thought. — Alex756 21:51, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Removed from article:
To clarify my concerns about the page history, this is my response to the reasons given in the article, that the Wikipedia page history:
There are various interpretations. The interpretation you favour is more conservative, but also less practical. My favoured alternative interpretation is more questionable from a legal POV, but also more practical. A more conservative interpretation still is that Wikipedia is systematically non-compliant, and no legal copying is possible. Third parties have to choose which interpretation they favour, weighing legal risk against other factors. Martin 00:35, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
All I want is for this page to tell the truth, no matter how inconvenient that may be. The truth is that currently there are some uncertainties regards what is required for a verbatim copy of a Wikipedia article to be compliant. If you manage to change the truth, I'll be happy for the article to change to reflect that. Martin 00:45, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
To make one thing clear - I know that both interpretations have problems. Both of their problems could be patched up in various ways, both technically and legally. My problem with your favoured interpretation is that including the entire history verbatim, even in printed copies, is incredibly impractical, and I suspect not what most contributors actually want. It seems to me that the desire is rather one of (a) author credit and (b) requiring a link back. Fortunately, both of these things can be done in my interpretation, and I hope this will be done in a future version of mediawiki. Martin 23:01, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
edit summary: "some changes and removals to clarify what the GFDL says"... yeah, I'd like more explanation than that, please.
Some content regards the handling of links - removed the two legally questionable exceptions. Why? Section two just says "verbatim copying". Verbatim means "word for word", so it should be entirely possible to change formatting details like links while still making a verbatim copy. This is what happens when I take a print out of a Wikipedia page, for example.
"Wikipedia's current License and Copyright Statement is itself questionable" - just removed. Well, it is questionable, certainly. Would you like me to explain why?
"Embedding a Wikipedia Document within a larger webpage" - removed "legally questionable". Well, it is questionable - the question is whether such embeds are considered "aggregation" or "derivative works". That question would have to be resolved in court - there have been some cases around this subject, IIRC, but nothing conclusive.
"Relying on Wikipedia is legally questionable because pages on Wikipedia may be deleted from public view" - removed. Well, why? This is just true - some pages on Wikipedia are deleted, and to the extent that this happens, Wikipedia will not be a machine-readable copy of the distributed text, and thus the sublicensee will not be in compliance with the text of the GFDL. So, it's questionable. People can do this, but they need to be aware that there may be issues with doing so. Martin 22:47, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
As we have a formal statement from Jimbo that the aggregation interpretation is go, I've used this to draft a couple of sections.
We also want buy in from our contributors, so in due course such a statement should go into wikipedia:Submission Standards. This will allow redistributors to rely a little more confidently on that interpretation. Martin 13:01, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I have a small static site called [ fixed reference] which I am trying to keep compliant with the various developments in interpretation of licence, but I have to say that the history is the most problematic. In principle I don't see why this discussion assumes the edit history contains adequate history in evolution of the article: a lot of the text is built by team on the talk pages as well: do we need local copies of all versions of all those to be compliant? I for one do not want future users of my work to have to carry hundreds of pages of discussion and versions around before they are allowed to use it and trying to include all this in, say, a CD version for schools is ridiculous: so what do we do? What if there is indecent material in the discussion pages: are we legally obliged to include it in a version for five year olds? Britannica must be laughing all the way to the bank. I would take an aggressive line that stating the content comes from WikiPedia and that WP will prvide the next step of information up the chain. This is the only workable route for this project to have any value to anyone. 99% of it comes under the additional agreement submitters have accepted "If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it." in any case. -- BozMo |talk 09:08, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The section Title page does not really say if the title page (From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) should exist in the verbatim copy. I'd prefer not because the text is quite naïve and changing over the time. (Actually, I am not doing any verbatim copies but the question is interesting) -- Etu 02:02, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I think that you do not have to include the the title page. Brianjd 09:57, 2004 Dec 27 (UTC)
License and Copyright Statement - currently, "All text is available under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License (see Copyrights for details). Disclaimers.".
Note the link to GNU FDL, which redirects to GNU Free Documentation License. However, the actual license and copyright statement links to Wikipedia:Text of the GNU Free Documentation License.
From Wikipedia:Verbatim copying:
It's my understanding of the GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) that we must change the title unless the original publisher of "a" (does that mean "any"?) previous version gives permission to do use the same title as that version, in which case it is up to us.
In summary: The Wikimedia Foundation cannot make that restriction. Brianjd 06:38, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)
If I remember correctly, then on the MonoBook skin, for a short while, there was no "Title Page".
That seems a bit vague. I would expect at least a link to an example of such an article ("Document" according to the GFDL). Brianjd 06:38, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)
As the GFDL was never intended for wiki articles, things get complicated.
I don't think the GFDL was ever intended for use by non-lawyers. The GFDL already seems a lot more complicated than it needs to be. Brianjd 06:38, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)
Some interpret the GFDL as applied to Wikipedia such that the "history" link (known as the "page history" in non-standard skins) is the GFDL History Section.
"Non-standard skins"? Can't we just say "some skins"? And I don't think that the page pointed to by the "history" link - not the "history" link itself of course - is the GFDL History section, because the GFDL History section needs to be a "section" of the "Document" in the usual sense, and the Wikipedia history is not. Brianjd 06:38, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)
There are some issues with this interpretation, making it legally questionable: the "page history"...
I would rather see a more consistent wording:
Here you have more freedom, chiefly because Wikipedia's current License and Copyright Statement is itself questionable.
Well I hope they're doing something about it then! Brianjd 06:38, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)
You must link to a local copy of the GFDL.
See Wikipedia talk:Text of the GNU Free Documentation License#Why is it on Wikipedia? for some more discussion regarding this point. I note there that the Wikimedia Foundation's website ( [2]) doesn't seem to have a local copy of the GFDL - the links at the bottom of pages point to http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html - and here that Wikipedia is the only wiki I know that has a local copy of the GFDL. Brianjd 06:38, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)
If you accept this interpretation, then you would need to print out the entire "page history" of the article (you may need to URL-hack to get the entire page history on a single webpage).
This is unacceptable. I don't think this needs much explanation. Brianjd 06:38, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)
In any event, your ability to redistribute Wikipedia articles beyond the terms of the GFDL are extended (at least in the United States) by the fair use and first-sale doctrines.
I don't know much about those but I presume that they are subject to change. Why are we singling out the United States here? Brianjd 06:38, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)
If you are copying more than 100 copies, then section 3 (copying in quantity) comes into play. Chiefly this means that you must include either:
Relying on Wikipedia is legally questionable because pages on Wikipedia may be deleted from public view, or Wikipedia as a whole may be taken down for legal or financial reasons. However, it is clearly the easiest solution, and Wikipedia is pretty stable.
Is this really specific to Wikipedia? This doesn't seem to be consistent with the GFDL, in spirit at least. Brianjd 06:38, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)
I've removed the vague sentence, "In any event, your ability to redistribute Wikipedia articles beyond the terms of the GFDL are extended (at least in the United States) by the fair use and first-sale doctrines." Fair use rights are limited, and there is no guarantee it will apply to the redistribution. First-sale doctrine does not apply unless they are transferring the copy they have(without keeping their own). Of course, they might then get another copy, but on the whole things somewhat questionable. At any rate, we don't need to encourage GFDL non-compliance. Als I'd like to address the "copying in quantity" section. The GFDL text says in the "verbatim copying" section, "If you distribute a large enough number of copies you must also follow the conditions in section 3." It doesn't say if you distribute a large enough number of printed copies, so I think this applies in general to web sites too. The "Copying in quantity" section contains the text "If you publish printed copies (or copies in media that commonly have printed covers)...". That paragraph (and the closely related following one) doesn't apply to web sites. However, I think the next part, which says, "If you publish or distribute Opaque copies of the Document numbering more than 100, you must either include a machine-readable Transparent copy along with each Opaque copy, or state in or with each Opaque copy a computer-network location from which the general network-using public has access to download using public-standard network protocols a complete Transparent copy of the Document, free of added material." I think that applies to all copies. I've tried to clarify the situation on the page by moving some things around. Please look over the Wikipedia:Verbatim copying#Copying in quantity and Wikipedia:Verbatim copying#Printed copies sections and see what you think. Superm401 | Talk 20:02, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
It seems that [3] is a verbatim copy of Wikipedia's Wine_making article. There's no license or source information on vinopinions.org, at least none that I can find. I'm sure there must be a process for reporting and investigating this, but I can't find it. Gregmg 22:46, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Am I allowed to copy an article and then change the content?
I've added the "essay" template to this page. Previously it was not clear whether or not this page was intended to be "official" policy or not. Looking at the page history, the page has not been worked on by many editors, and it doesn't look to me that it has received detailed scrutiny from experts in the topic, or from the Wikimedia foundation. So for the time being, I think it's best to view it as an opinion piece - hence the essay template. Ideally it might be good to get more input from experts, or the Wikimedia foundation, for this page. Enchanter 00:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Given that it is mandatory to include this text in order to satisfy the GFDL, surely the Wikimedia foundation must grant permission to use the Wikipedia trademark in that way? Martin
Whilst running a Google search on the Rapier missile I came across the following copy [4] on an advertising website which omits the GFDL licence. Does anyone enforce the licence requirements ? John 20:59, 25 April 2007 (UTC)