Kind of long for a boilerplate, eh? - 戴眩sv 20:20, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)
The problem is that it needs to be comprehensive regarding the relationship someone enters into with Wikipedia before they enter into it, sort of like Terms of Use or Terms of Service (or just Terms) as found on most web sites.
Actually if you look at most of these user agreements they are quite long, this one is much shorter. Alex756 21:43, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Oh. I am usually a quite person, but looking at this unprintable stuff makes me think whether I should seriously condider a question of naming things by what some people (including but not limited to me) may (or may not and this is your liability in taking a decision whether this particular act of naming occurs or not) call their names. Unprintable unprintable laws, but are we unprintably obligated to keep track of all these unprintable questions? I started with laughing at
then I frowned at
and then I got to
and I give up. I don't understand it. I will try to get the point but right now I can't write about my opinion, I feel completely dumb. I return to my mathematics and theoretical physics problems. ilya 06:17, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Ilya, here's the simple version: If you license your parents to use your contributions freely, with no restrictions at all, you authorize the Wikipedia to take action against them for infringing the GFDL and agree to pay the Wikipedia its legal fees for doing it. Even though you granted them a license broader than the GFDL. Similarly, once you've granted the Wikipedia a GFDL license, you can't license the same work to anyone else under any other license without risking the Wikipedia taking baseless GFDL infringement action against them. If you grant or may want to grant anyone a non-GFDL license, you need to either opt out of the enforcement clause or not contribute that work to the Wikipedia. Jamesday 03:02, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I'm not clear on the implications of this. If I appoint Wikimedia to this role, may I still chase copyright infringements on my own if I choose to? IE, is this a "non-exclusive" appointment? Martin
I've read this and think it is well-written as-in and can be fine tuned after a link to it is added to edit windows. What, if anything is still needed before we do that? There is the MediaWiki page that would get edited: MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning. I'm not sure if wiki or HTML links work on that page. -- mav 05:13, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)
That timeline sounds reasonable to me. — Alex756 06:14, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I'm no expert on the law in this area, but I'm a bit confused by:
I'd expect users should be allowed to make such statements if they are true, for example discussing the Exxon-Valdez oil spill or the Iran-Contra affair. Should "include statements" be changed to "include false statements" (or "include false or unsubstantiated statements", or similar) to reflect this? -- Delirium 07:00, Jan 18, 2004 (UTC)
It's a good thing people don't read legal notices, expecially those that have to be clicked to get to, for if they did, anyone with brains enough to understand them would stop contributing. Exactly what problem is it that we're solving by linking to this? Expressing our faith that publishing our archives isn't publishing? Expressing our wish about this won't make the courts parse it our way. Altogether too scary and probably useless. "You can help us write an encyclopedia IF you agree to suffer the penalties of perjury added on to whatever else you may suffer by your own actions. Wikipedia will not be responsible for what you write and will render you no assistance. You must agree to a "contract" in which you receive NO CONSIDERATION and yet is presented as binding, and in which you give Wikipedia the right to your words, and Wikipedia gives you nothing. Altogether, this does not sound like a good deal for the editor, and it sounds like an unnecessary and selfdestructive mofe for WIkipedia. Conscientious people don't need the legal fear of God thrown uponthem, and the unconscnientious will itnore it. _-- Binky 07:20, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Such comments as "it would be much better if we simply outline the rules of sumission and expected behavior" puzzle me because that is what we are doing here. Telling someone that it is a contract is just giving them information about what is going in. The fact of the matter is that the only thing that is really new here is the indemnification, and once again that is just to protect Wikipedia against people who are trying to use Wikipedia to break the law. Why shouldn't they want to pay Wikipedia's legal fees if they get the chance to broadcast their comments through the Wikipedia platform? Saying that Wikipedia gives nothing to contributors is really insulting, too, BTW; no one is painting fences here, we are all authors getting our works published on a collaborative open format, I'm sure even Mark Twain would find that valid consideration to form the basis of a contract. — Alex756 21:23, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I must say I don't really like the phrasing as a contract either. I think a better approach would be "these are the rules we have laid out for the use of our website, and if you do not follow the rules, we will terminate your ability to participate here". They don't have to agree to the rules, since we own the servers. -- Delirium 00:33, Jan 22, 2004 (UTC)
I hate to tell you guys if you call it a contract or not it is still a contract. When you buy a loaf of bread that is a contract. When you log onto your ISP you are bound by all kinds of terms and conditions. These are formed by your contractual relation with the ISP. Any site you log onto has terms and conditions. Remember that the GFDL is a contract, a license is a contract; do yo want to remove the word license from GFDL, then what do we call it the GFD? It is silly to suggest that it is not a contract if we do not use that word. What is wrong with laying ground rules that include protecting the organization that we are all contributing to. You don't care about people taking advantage of the Wikipedia forum? I find this to be a very ignorant approach to what Wikipedia is and what it is possible to do with it. People can redistribute it, it can be copied all over the world, it is not a vanity press it is an intensive collaborative community of creative authors from around the world creating the largest knowledge base that may ever exist. Don't demean the project by suggesting it is less than it is. 99% of the contributors will not ever have to worry about any of these submission standards, it is just for cranks who want to use Wikipedia to create legal problems. You are yelling fire in a crowded theatre if you think that these submission standards are doing anything more than protecting Wikipedia from people who would use it for a vanity press. "If you don't follow the rules, then we will terminate your access" is also a unilateral contract, so stating that makes a contract even if you don't call it a contract. The fact of the matter is that when responsible people act their actions have consequences. These indemnification terms are to prevent us from suffering the consequences of those who do not consider the consequences of their actions. It does not prevent anyone from contributing valid knowledge to Wikipedia. — Alex756 04:46, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I don't think anyone has "proven" that there is a contract. You have argued that there is a contract. Whether this is true, and moreover whether it's the sort of contract a court will be willing to recognize and enforce, is yet to be seen. There are plenty of purported "implied contracts" that are ruled unenforceable by courts. In any case, I don't think it's in our best interests to require the users to agree to a contract to post here. I think instead it would be better to simply give them notice of the sort of behavior we won't tolerate, and act accordingly. Sort of like how if you cause a ruckus in your local bar, they don't throw you out because you violated a contract—they throw you out because they don't want you there, and since they own the place, they can kick out whoever they want. Similarly, the Wikimedia foundation can kick out whoever it wants, whether the kickee agrees to a contract saying so or not, by virtue of the fact that we own the servers. -- Delirium 20:51, Jan 22, 2004 (UTC)
Oh, BTW from the above cite (bullet points are mine): The existence of a contract requires finding the following factual elements:
I have proven my case, so I am done arguing with you Blinky. -- mav 02:53, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Whew, mav, have you thought of going to dental school? This discussion should become some kind of standard about debating a topic to death. — Alex756 [http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alex756 talk] 02:12, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Tank you Bink, couldn't have said it without your help -) — Alex756 [http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alex756 talk] 07:03, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I object to this in its current form. I have no interest at all in going after places which merely aren't in full compliance with the GFDL, potentially based on the views of the most anti-freedom to use (copyleft opposes freedom to use) people here. This needs to be done via specific permissions for specific types of GFDL non-compliance, since not close to everyone here likes the GFDL or wants it all enforced. Easy enough to track via category tags on user pages. For myself, I just added to my user page a grant of license to anyone the Wikipedia sends a DMCA takedown notice to, provided they link to the Wikipedia. Jamesday 12:21, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Please note that if you do opt out that Wikipedia may still be able to enforce that right you have granted to Wikipedia to release your work exclusively under the GFDL as this license is a limited grant of copyright to Wikipedia to redistribute your work only under the GFDL and thus Wikipedia may demand compliance with the GFDL license granted to Wikipedia or ask that the materials be removed under the these internet takedown provisions.
I've published items elsewhere prior to here and have granted the message board operators and their hosting company the right to distribute in any format in perpetuity. I've contributed similar content at other wiki encyclopedias and will do more of that. How can I revoke the rights I've granted others so I can grant the Wikipedia the privilege in that paragraph? The copyright compliance opt-out has to either be absolute or needs to be sufficiently fine-grained that contributors can accurately indicate the other licenses under which they have released their works. Otherwise it prohibits contributors from using other licences, even CCs copyleft license. In effect, this says that contributors may only license to anyone under the GFDL, effectively denying them the rights to their work. Jamesday 02:50, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Delirium covered it - I don't know what you were trying to address, Alex. If I grant you a CC-ShareAlike license, what would you say to me if I authorized the Wikipedia to take action against you for GFDL infringement of that same work? You aren't bound by the GFDL and it's my responsibility not to enter into agreements which contradict the one I've made with you.
Consider what happens if we ask permission from a publication to use part of their work. If they upload it, they end up granting the Wikipedia authority to take GFDL enforcement action against anyone else they have licensed their work to. That's crazy - they have to be able to opt out of GFDL enforcement so that they can stick to their agreements with others. Otherwise they can't license things to the Wikipedia. Jamesday
In the mediawiki namespace text that appears at the bottom of every edit page directing users here should we not date when there was last any (substantial) changes were made to this page? Otherwise we could (theoretically) be sneaking in clauses that people are agreeing to without realizing. Course this is not likely to be a big deal in practice, but given that this is the area we are trying to get the legalistics right.... Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 12:56, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I think such a thing would be helpful. Remember that this page may be the first a new editor sees. We don't want to scare the heck out of him. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 12:56, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
This document is a legal contract, and as such should probably be protected, as we have protected the local copy of the GFDL. Thoughts?
James F.
(talk) 13:01, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Most of these agreements have notes that if a section of the agreement is deemed to be not legally enforceable, then it is stricken out, and the remainder of the terms are still in effect. Should this agreement have such a clause? Martin 21:29, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and added some general terms, including the severability clause and a procedure for making changes. — Alex756 02:38, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I'm not seeing the benefit of asserting penalty of perjury. What would this mean in practical terms? Martin 21:38, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Thanks Alex. :) Martin 18:39, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Hi, Alex, I think the submission standards are a good thing overall and applaud your work on them.
I do have some concerns, however.
First, we should MeatBall:AvoidIllusion and realize that something like this is not particularly compelling in a court of law. It's not a negotiated contract, and there's no quid pro quo. These are tough issues and there is really no way around them. There are also practical jurisdicitonal issues with contributors in, say, Belize, that make any sort of rational application difficult.
Second, I wonder what the real benefits are to Wikipedia in asking contributors to indemnify Wikipedia. It could end up costing a lot of money for someone if there is a (possibly groundless) suit, since they would be expected to defend Wikimedia at their expense. That is a lot to ask, and as with any indemnity clause it potentially removes Wikimedia's incentive to settle the matter simply and cheaply. That may scare contributors away. And it doesn't help Wikimedia much since there is no practical resources aginst most contributors because they are either outside the U.S. or do not have insurance or financial resources.
Third, I don't think the arbitration committee (of which I am a member) is qualified to arbitrate contract disputes. It was set up to resolve article disputes and has sort of been broadened to handle user behavior disputes. None of us are members of the American Arbitration Board (or whatever it's called). None of us, AFAIK, are licensed to practice law. As such, trying to arbitrate contract disputes is a) out of our league, and b) brings an unwanted liability burden to us.
My thoughts. IANAL, TINALO, etc. Yours, UninvitedCompany 23:49, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I don't think we have one of these do we? Might the launch of this page into the big time be the time to introduce one? In particular it might be nice to state somewhere that wikimedia reserves the right for a wikimedia developer (or in the future, a sysop?) to do a username to IP address look up for the purposes of tracing possible sock puppetry etc. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 23:58, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this is here yet, but the heading names suggest no; so I'll ask.
The idea of "retiring" old versions to archive status looks like a pretty good one; it means that we don't have to worry about copyright infringements in the history (at least not unless and until somebody specifically requests us to remove them). But when they're mentioned again at the end, it sounds like I might not be able to revert to a previous version! I'll explain:
Since Wikimedia -- probably, nobody -- is publishing A's version, does that mean that it's not available under the GNU FDL? Does that mean that C can't actually do this reversion without A's permission? Sure, A almost certainly would give permission -- but it could be a real pain to have to ask!
It's not clear to me what this archival theory says about this, but it seems as if the answers are technically "Yes, it does mean just that!".
-- Toby Bartels 00:24, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)
It is not without meaning. It does not state that one cannot copy it. And to quit publishing something is very significant; it happens all the time off the internet. If you publish a book under GFDL then people can only copy it if they have a copy of that book, they cannot publish drafts that you are not distributing. The wiki is not quite like books because wikis allows for multiple versioning and continual re-editing; one could argue that this is one reason that the GFDL is an inappropriate licencing tool for collaborative wiki-based knowledge base such as Wikipedia. There is nothing in the GFDL that states that a text cannot have current versions on the internet even if prior versions are available in the archives for archival purposes. This text is putting people on notice that not everything in history pages has been released under the GFDL because it is in violation of some law such as copyright law. If one has the option to use two texts and we are stating a preference to use the most current that is not in violation of the GFDL, it is just stating that user should use the current version. How does that violate the GFDL? Why would we want to encourage people to use materials that are old, out of date or incorrect or are not NPOV, if there is no current version that is being "published" vs. versions that have been retired from publication then there is little point in trying to improve articles, no? There is an argument that one cannot unilaterially remove a prior contribution of an author (as you cannot do this in Berne countries that actually comply with the moral rights provisions of Berne unlike the un-Berne US legislation that somehow continues to exist) and this is another reason that current versions take precedence over GFDL versions. Not everything in the GFDL is necessarily enforceable anyway, it remains untested; it would not suprise me if parts of it could be struck down as being unenforceable and even irrelevant, so why not protect all the Wikipedia contributors to make sure that the most complete versions are continually distributed rather than out of date, poorly edited stuff? — Alex756 03:20, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I've reworked the first paragraph of the archive notice section with these objectives:
Does anyone have any thoughts on the merits or otherwise of this edit? Jamesday 01:32, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)
re that sentence, feel free to remove it if you wish. However, please consider how to address the following questions without that sentence:
The Choice of Law section says that the contract is under the laws of the state of California, yet any legal action must take place in Florida. How is this possible? Presumably the Florida courts cannot enforce California state law. -- Delirium 06:52, Jan 19, 2004 (UTC)
Actually practically all disputes will be resolved by arbitration (this may not be the same arbitration as the arbitration committee, if the dispute does not have to do with some edit someone makes) so the only thing that will actually get to court is the decision of the arbitration and that will be in the court local to Jimbo in St. Petersburg Florida (hope Jimbo has no plans on moving to Alabama!) so the only time Wikimedia will ever go to court is if some former user is out there trying to overturn their arbitration agreement and they show up on Jimbo's home turf and want to argue about it in front of a judge. — Alex756 02:19, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
THIS PAGE IS STILL A DRAFT.
You must obey these rules when submitting any material to Wikipedia"
Summary
1.Submit text that you are willing to release under the
GNU FDL. You retain the copyright, but by releasing it under the GFDL allow anyone who fulfills certain requirements to copy, use, or modify it. You must be a legally competent adult to make this release.
2. Submit only lawful words, as unlawful words might cause serious consequences both to yourself and Wikipedia
3. If Wikipedia incurs legal expenses because of your contribution, it will try to recover them by suing you.
4. The text you write may be edited or deleted: Wikipedia has no obligation to retain it.
5. If you add
fair use material you must note clearly that it is being submitted as fair use and you must give your own analysis of the four factors that make such a contribution a non-infringing addition to any article (see e.g.,
how to document fair use). Your page or any submission you make may be deleted if it violates any of the Submission Standards or other
policies that are later developed on Wikipedia.
6. Wikipedia considers the current version of an article as the Wikipedia proper, and the historical pages as archives. Both the Wikipedia and its archives are released under the GDFL
7. Disobeying these rules may result in loss of your ability to edit or write for Wikipedia, at Wikipedia's sole discretion.
8. Wikipedia will act to ensure compliance with the GDFL.
Changes
This is a protected page which means that changes to it will only be made if they are done by a systems operator (sysop). Any proposed changes to this text should be made on the
Wikipedia:mailing lists and posted on the talk page here. After discussion such change will be made to this text, an additional twenty days will pass until such change takes effect, in any case any changes to these terms shall not take effect until they are posted a minimum of thirty days; during the second period additional discussion may take place on the mailing lists and the board of directors of Wikimedia Foundation Inc., may then revoke any changes as they see fit. See the page history for details on when changes are made. It is the user's responsibility to check this page for changes.
a proposal for a less hostile and less objectionable page -- Binky 11:04, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I am not sure it is less hostile. It is stating that Wikipedia will sue you. That is very hostile. Stating that Wikipedia can seek indemnification is much less hostile. Please state in detail what is "hostile" about stating that Wikipedia is an archive under § 107 of Title 17. This helps protect Wikipedia. What is also hostile about preventing people from sueing Wikipedia anywhere in the world. This is much more hostile it is giving any contributor the right to bring a lawsuit against Wikipedia anywhere in the world. Very hostile! I note that these terms are a contract as it states: "You must obey these rules", in other words you are bound by these rules. Also this is much more authoritarian than the other standards. Also why is it "hostile" to tell children who do not have the right to consent that there materials may be removed by their parents. What is hostile about that? Quite frankly I think this so called "kinder, gentler" version of the Submission Standards is more hostile that the version that is trying to help people understand what there relationship to Wikipedia is, if you read between the lines this is much more condescending and allows people to be hostile to Wikipedia (by suing Wikipedia) and Wikipedia to be hostile to them (by sueing them). Allowing Wikipedia to be a copyright compliance agent protects all Wikipedians, this text tells them that disobeying "Wikipedia" can result in a loss of your ability to edit or write" at "Wikipedia's sole discretion". For a non-corporal internet site Wikipedia is very condescending, no? There is no "Wikipedia" with volition or power over anyone, Wikipedia is a community association and as all association the Wikipedia community has the right to come up with collective rules which are essentially part of the implicit contract of association between these people. What is so objectionable about that? — Alex756 02:48, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)
No one is hiding anything. That is the whole point — you even agree with 99% of the content of the proposed Submission Standards, you just find some language objectionable and want everyone to go running to court. What specifically is your problem? I see you have not responded to the substance of my comments Binky. And you state that somehow this text means that the submissions are not released under the GFDL. That is not true at all! Delirum has a good point, the summary is clear and that is what most people will read, just like most people have never really spent any time reading the GFDL or the US Constitution, the Bible, Koran or Baghavad Gita. Perhaps you just dislike the fact that practically all sites on the internet have "Terms of Use" of which this is just another variation... At least when they adopt some variation of this text then you will never be able to argue that you didn't read it and didn't know what it meant. Obviously you have participated in the debate and have, by posting your version, demonstrated that you understand the principles behind it. Once it is adopted and you stick around Binky, you will be bound by it too, no doubt. — Alex756 | [http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alex756 talk] 06:56, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)
What does irrevocably buy us? I think we could work equally well with revocable appointments, given that we're allowing people to adopt it. Martin 00:22, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Ahh, so it's largely a timing issue then? Interesting - that's quite difficult to get around. We're almost saying that someone's very first edit would have to be to opt-out of copyright, or else they have to apply to the Board... Surely there's a better way of doing this? Martin 00:57, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Good job on the bullet point format for the Summary Martin. I put it before the TOC so that someone would see the summary first and not get lost in the TOC, otherwise I like what you did. — Alex756 [http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alex756 talk] 00:42, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
There are some terms here that aren't really about submission. Perhaps they should be on a seperate page? IMO, this page should discuss what people are agreeing to by submitting to Wikipedia, and we should have another page indicating what people are agreeing to by using Wikipedia at all. Perhaps at Wikipedia:terms of use? Martin 01:01, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
People should read that. It makes the sole recourse for any dispute with the Wikipedia an arbitration committee apointed exclusively BY the Wikipedia. The results of that are predictable - the Wikipedia will prevail every time, regardless of the merits. Jamesday 04:42, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Really, if an arbitration committee does not have a level of fairness it can be overturned by a court, so this would mean that the arbitrators have a high standard to make sure that they do their jobs well and not in a shoddy way. Also Jimbo has stated that the arbitration positions are to be elected (the committee is getting started with appointments to get some kind of structure but hopefully the elections for that committee will occur soon as the two members of the Board to be members reps must also be elected soon. With an elected committee we will have some power over arbitrators. If there decisions are unfair, throw them out! They will have to campaign on a platform of fairness, responsiveness, respect for user rights. Remember in most democracies judges are either appointed or elected, some think it is more democratic when they are appointed because they are specialists that must know the law, but others feel that elected judges are more answerable to the people and are less captured by special interests. I wouldn't mind a jury for certain kinds of cases, there is no reason that the Board of Trustees could not appoint a jury determination for certain kinds of arbitrations and there could be a random jury pool for that. Anyway, you don't get the right to chose the judges who rule your particular case they are always chosen randomly. — Alex756 [http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alex756 talk] 07:01, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Say you take action against the Board for some reason. Do you really expect that the Board would choose arbitrators who would do anything other than cause the Board to prevail? If you do today, what about the possible dismal future situation if there's a malicious Board we're all trying to remove? I do agree that this arbitration agreement is not going to be binding, because of that inherent defect, regardless of what it says, but it's good to write agreements which aren't problematic on their face. Jamesday 22:04, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
One addition whcih seems prudent: The Wikipedia can't take enforcement action for infringement of any GFDL clause which it is not itself complying with. There are arguments that the Wikipedisa isn't fully complying with the authors credit terms and that leaves open the possibility of the Wikipedia using a GFDL enfrocement grant to take action against anyone who doesn't comply because the Wikipedia itself is not providing the information needed to comply. I don't think the current board would do this but control can change and we've seen such problems in other projects which seemed to be public then experienced a change of management to a group with the desire to lock things up. Jamesday 04:32, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
No, because the agreement makes the Wikipedia the agent of the contributor, to enforce all of their GFDL rights. It gets that ability regardless of whether it is itself compying whatever clause it's claiming the other party isn't complying with. If they are still alive and hear about it the contributors could try to all grant the other party licenses but that's very unlikely to be a successful effort. Better to provide for the situation in advance and make it impossible. Jamesday 04:47, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The same reasons a third party might not comply: laziness, inconvenience. I think James's extra condition has some merit, especially given that we have no knowledge of how strictly a future court might interpret the GFDL. Martin 19:11, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
According to our article on OCILLA, a take-down notice requires "A physical or electronic signature of a person authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed". Since the GFDL grant to Wikipedia is a non-exclusive right, would I be correct in thinking that Wikimedia cannot issue takedown notices according to the OCILLA provisions? Martin 00:00, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
So, let me try to restate that to see if I understand. Your interpretation is that the "exclusive right" simply means copyrighted text as opposed to public domain text. Thus I still have an "exclusive right" even if I sublicense Wikipedia to use my content. Thus I can assign Wikipedia to enforce that right, and Wikipedia can enforce it. However, there are other interpretations of this passage. Martin 21:22, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)~
In all cases if you submit anything you are responsible for the submission, not Wikipedia. Should there be any legal consequences you specifically agree that you indemnify and hold harmless Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation Inc., Bomis Inc. their officers, directors or agents, and the other volunteers of Wikipedia. Such indemnification includes costs and reasonable attorneys fees; you indemnify these entities and individuals from any claims, suits, causes of action in law or equity, judgments, levies, fines, whatsoever from the time of your first contribution to Wikipedia or any other Wikimedia project. Any individual making a submission to Wikipedia will not benefit from this indemnification vis-à-vis other contributors if their submissions are in violation of these standards.
Indemnification means that you will cover the costs and damages that may be levied against these entities or individuals for your conduct. This only seems fair as it is your conduct. Wikipedia and the other volunteers have no real control over your submissions. However, as long as your submissions are lawful you should have no worry that you will have any liability under this term of your agreement with this project.
By contributing to Wikipedia, you agree that the Wikimedia Foundation may publish your submission, before or after being modified as described above, under one or more of:
Is there any point to this? All past contributors have submitted their text with the knowledge that they were doing so under the real GFDL, not some Wikipedia FDL. So how does enforcing this on new contributors change anything? Wouldn't users of our content still have to abide by section 4B for all articles edited before these submission standards go live? Angela . 02:31, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)
What are the plans for implementing this. Will it be a clickthrough for all users? What about anonymous submitters? Will any advance warning be given? For those of us who decide not to agree, will we be able to participate anywhere on Wikipedia? The talk pages? Our user page? Will we still be allowed to have a watch list? Anthony DiPierro 02:48, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Actually I have at least one problem with Wikipedia:Submission Standards (a) too. It won't keep me from contributing, though. I just don't plan on following it.
As for this version:
1) "If someone uses your contributions on another site without complying with the GFDL, you authorise Wikimedia to take steps to make sure that such third parties comply."
2) "You agree to release Wikipedia and all sublicensees from section 4B of the GFDL."
3) "You hereby appoint Wikimedia Foundation Inc., or any of its duly authorized volunteers agents, to act as your copyright compliance officer..."
4) "You have not opted out of this clause or you applied to opt out of this clause less than one month ago."
5) "This opt-out only covers edits you have made that are your own original work."
6) "By using the Wikipedia site in any manner you are deemed to be aware of this agreement."
7) "After such discussion such change will be made to this text, an additional twenty days will pass until such change takes effect"
The key problems are 1) and 4). 5) and 7) just need to be clarified. And 6) is just stupid. Anthony DiPierro 20:34, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
How much does the above poster know about contract law and the enforceability of contracts? Contracts in most jurisdictions are interpreted by the reasonable understanding and acts of the parties; not the actual subjective intent of the parties which is the case in most civil law jurisdictions such as France or Puerto Rico. Perhaps the above individual lives in civilian jurisdiction; the US is mostly common law and the law applicable here. Regarding shrink-wrap licenses they are generally enforceable: See ProCD v. Zeidenberg 86 F.3d 1447 (7th Cir., 1996) and Hill v. Gateway 2000, Inc. 105 F.3d 1147 (7th Cir., 1997) cert denied, 522 U.S. 808 (1997). In ProCD the court stated: "[s]hrinkwrap licenses are enforceable unless their terms are objectionable on grounds applicable to contracts in general (for example, if they violate a rule of positive law, or if they are unconscionable)." (at 1449). The Courts of New York, a pre-eminent commercial jurisdiction has also held that a shrink-wrap license is enforceable, Brower v. Gateway 2000, In.c 246 A.D.2d 246, 676 N.Y.S.2d 569 (N.Y. App. Div., 1998).
Also, I do not think that a string of words can be "retarded." This is an improper use of language. A sentence can be incorrect: it cannot be retarded. The meaning of the word retarded as an adjective is: "retarded": adj : relatively slow in mental or emotional or physical evelopment; "providing a secure and sometimes happy life for the retarded" [ant: precocious] (Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University). The word "retarded" is often seen as an offensive expletive. I can only think that the word "retarded" as used above is really a comment meant to illicit a negative response (see definition of trolling), n'est pas? — Alex756 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alex756 talk] 22:22, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
As of this moment, my only major issue with agreeing to this is issue 4), the one month waiting period for opt-out. I have lots of other issues, in that I don't think Wikipedia should be given this power by default in the first place, but that's not an issue with whether or not I would personally agree to this. Anthony DiPierro 19:43, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
cf [2].
Since Jimbo has made this "official", to some degree, at some point we should make accepting this interpretation part of the submission standards, which will allow us to be rather more confident that redistributors can use it, and increase our safeguards against users who disagree with it demanding that all their text be removed. However, as this is likely to be controversial, it's something for a later version, I expect. Martin 13:01, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Wow, that was fun. Talk about relative bargaining power. I wish all contracts had an edit button. I made a series of changes, some technical, some for clarity, and some for fairness. Perhaps the most significant was to the "notification" section. It is unfair to expect users to regularly check the page history, and to threaten them with implicit agreement to arbitrary conditions if they do not. Changes should be announced, and should not be binding unless they are. -- Tim Starling 15:28, Jun 21, 2004 (UTC)
These submission standards apply to any and all contributions you make to Wikipedia irrespective of date or the then status of the terms and conditions of your submission.
This is problematic. According to this, it seems that if I one day log in and the submission standards have been modified, they are automatically applied to all contributions I have ever made. Considering that I am considered bound to this agreement merely by reading Wikipedia, and that I have no way to terminate the agreement, this is completely unacceptable.
This needs to be removed, better notification of a change (and more importantly, notification of the initial institution of the standards) needs to be incorporated, and there needs to be a way to refuse or terminate the agreement.
You can't terminate the entire thing, because the GFDL can't be retracted. I believe that you're bound not by reading, but by editing (reading is the wikipedia:terms of use). Tim has edited to give better notification - is this sufficient? Martin 23:56, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Kind of long for a boilerplate, eh? - 戴眩sv 20:20, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)
The problem is that it needs to be comprehensive regarding the relationship someone enters into with Wikipedia before they enter into it, sort of like Terms of Use or Terms of Service (or just Terms) as found on most web sites.
Actually if you look at most of these user agreements they are quite long, this one is much shorter. Alex756 21:43, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Oh. I am usually a quite person, but looking at this unprintable stuff makes me think whether I should seriously condider a question of naming things by what some people (including but not limited to me) may (or may not and this is your liability in taking a decision whether this particular act of naming occurs or not) call their names. Unprintable unprintable laws, but are we unprintably obligated to keep track of all these unprintable questions? I started with laughing at
then I frowned at
and then I got to
and I give up. I don't understand it. I will try to get the point but right now I can't write about my opinion, I feel completely dumb. I return to my mathematics and theoretical physics problems. ilya 06:17, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Ilya, here's the simple version: If you license your parents to use your contributions freely, with no restrictions at all, you authorize the Wikipedia to take action against them for infringing the GFDL and agree to pay the Wikipedia its legal fees for doing it. Even though you granted them a license broader than the GFDL. Similarly, once you've granted the Wikipedia a GFDL license, you can't license the same work to anyone else under any other license without risking the Wikipedia taking baseless GFDL infringement action against them. If you grant or may want to grant anyone a non-GFDL license, you need to either opt out of the enforcement clause or not contribute that work to the Wikipedia. Jamesday 03:02, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I'm not clear on the implications of this. If I appoint Wikimedia to this role, may I still chase copyright infringements on my own if I choose to? IE, is this a "non-exclusive" appointment? Martin
I've read this and think it is well-written as-in and can be fine tuned after a link to it is added to edit windows. What, if anything is still needed before we do that? There is the MediaWiki page that would get edited: MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning. I'm not sure if wiki or HTML links work on that page. -- mav 05:13, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)
That timeline sounds reasonable to me. — Alex756 06:14, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I'm no expert on the law in this area, but I'm a bit confused by:
I'd expect users should be allowed to make such statements if they are true, for example discussing the Exxon-Valdez oil spill or the Iran-Contra affair. Should "include statements" be changed to "include false statements" (or "include false or unsubstantiated statements", or similar) to reflect this? -- Delirium 07:00, Jan 18, 2004 (UTC)
It's a good thing people don't read legal notices, expecially those that have to be clicked to get to, for if they did, anyone with brains enough to understand them would stop contributing. Exactly what problem is it that we're solving by linking to this? Expressing our faith that publishing our archives isn't publishing? Expressing our wish about this won't make the courts parse it our way. Altogether too scary and probably useless. "You can help us write an encyclopedia IF you agree to suffer the penalties of perjury added on to whatever else you may suffer by your own actions. Wikipedia will not be responsible for what you write and will render you no assistance. You must agree to a "contract" in which you receive NO CONSIDERATION and yet is presented as binding, and in which you give Wikipedia the right to your words, and Wikipedia gives you nothing. Altogether, this does not sound like a good deal for the editor, and it sounds like an unnecessary and selfdestructive mofe for WIkipedia. Conscientious people don't need the legal fear of God thrown uponthem, and the unconscnientious will itnore it. _-- Binky 07:20, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Such comments as "it would be much better if we simply outline the rules of sumission and expected behavior" puzzle me because that is what we are doing here. Telling someone that it is a contract is just giving them information about what is going in. The fact of the matter is that the only thing that is really new here is the indemnification, and once again that is just to protect Wikipedia against people who are trying to use Wikipedia to break the law. Why shouldn't they want to pay Wikipedia's legal fees if they get the chance to broadcast their comments through the Wikipedia platform? Saying that Wikipedia gives nothing to contributors is really insulting, too, BTW; no one is painting fences here, we are all authors getting our works published on a collaborative open format, I'm sure even Mark Twain would find that valid consideration to form the basis of a contract. — Alex756 21:23, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I must say I don't really like the phrasing as a contract either. I think a better approach would be "these are the rules we have laid out for the use of our website, and if you do not follow the rules, we will terminate your ability to participate here". They don't have to agree to the rules, since we own the servers. -- Delirium 00:33, Jan 22, 2004 (UTC)
I hate to tell you guys if you call it a contract or not it is still a contract. When you buy a loaf of bread that is a contract. When you log onto your ISP you are bound by all kinds of terms and conditions. These are formed by your contractual relation with the ISP. Any site you log onto has terms and conditions. Remember that the GFDL is a contract, a license is a contract; do yo want to remove the word license from GFDL, then what do we call it the GFD? It is silly to suggest that it is not a contract if we do not use that word. What is wrong with laying ground rules that include protecting the organization that we are all contributing to. You don't care about people taking advantage of the Wikipedia forum? I find this to be a very ignorant approach to what Wikipedia is and what it is possible to do with it. People can redistribute it, it can be copied all over the world, it is not a vanity press it is an intensive collaborative community of creative authors from around the world creating the largest knowledge base that may ever exist. Don't demean the project by suggesting it is less than it is. 99% of the contributors will not ever have to worry about any of these submission standards, it is just for cranks who want to use Wikipedia to create legal problems. You are yelling fire in a crowded theatre if you think that these submission standards are doing anything more than protecting Wikipedia from people who would use it for a vanity press. "If you don't follow the rules, then we will terminate your access" is also a unilateral contract, so stating that makes a contract even if you don't call it a contract. The fact of the matter is that when responsible people act their actions have consequences. These indemnification terms are to prevent us from suffering the consequences of those who do not consider the consequences of their actions. It does not prevent anyone from contributing valid knowledge to Wikipedia. — Alex756 04:46, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I don't think anyone has "proven" that there is a contract. You have argued that there is a contract. Whether this is true, and moreover whether it's the sort of contract a court will be willing to recognize and enforce, is yet to be seen. There are plenty of purported "implied contracts" that are ruled unenforceable by courts. In any case, I don't think it's in our best interests to require the users to agree to a contract to post here. I think instead it would be better to simply give them notice of the sort of behavior we won't tolerate, and act accordingly. Sort of like how if you cause a ruckus in your local bar, they don't throw you out because you violated a contract—they throw you out because they don't want you there, and since they own the place, they can kick out whoever they want. Similarly, the Wikimedia foundation can kick out whoever it wants, whether the kickee agrees to a contract saying so or not, by virtue of the fact that we own the servers. -- Delirium 20:51, Jan 22, 2004 (UTC)
Oh, BTW from the above cite (bullet points are mine): The existence of a contract requires finding the following factual elements:
I have proven my case, so I am done arguing with you Blinky. -- mav 02:53, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Whew, mav, have you thought of going to dental school? This discussion should become some kind of standard about debating a topic to death. — Alex756 [http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alex756 talk] 02:12, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Tank you Bink, couldn't have said it without your help -) — Alex756 [http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alex756 talk] 07:03, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I object to this in its current form. I have no interest at all in going after places which merely aren't in full compliance with the GFDL, potentially based on the views of the most anti-freedom to use (copyleft opposes freedom to use) people here. This needs to be done via specific permissions for specific types of GFDL non-compliance, since not close to everyone here likes the GFDL or wants it all enforced. Easy enough to track via category tags on user pages. For myself, I just added to my user page a grant of license to anyone the Wikipedia sends a DMCA takedown notice to, provided they link to the Wikipedia. Jamesday 12:21, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Please note that if you do opt out that Wikipedia may still be able to enforce that right you have granted to Wikipedia to release your work exclusively under the GFDL as this license is a limited grant of copyright to Wikipedia to redistribute your work only under the GFDL and thus Wikipedia may demand compliance with the GFDL license granted to Wikipedia or ask that the materials be removed under the these internet takedown provisions.
I've published items elsewhere prior to here and have granted the message board operators and their hosting company the right to distribute in any format in perpetuity. I've contributed similar content at other wiki encyclopedias and will do more of that. How can I revoke the rights I've granted others so I can grant the Wikipedia the privilege in that paragraph? The copyright compliance opt-out has to either be absolute or needs to be sufficiently fine-grained that contributors can accurately indicate the other licenses under which they have released their works. Otherwise it prohibits contributors from using other licences, even CCs copyleft license. In effect, this says that contributors may only license to anyone under the GFDL, effectively denying them the rights to their work. Jamesday 02:50, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Delirium covered it - I don't know what you were trying to address, Alex. If I grant you a CC-ShareAlike license, what would you say to me if I authorized the Wikipedia to take action against you for GFDL infringement of that same work? You aren't bound by the GFDL and it's my responsibility not to enter into agreements which contradict the one I've made with you.
Consider what happens if we ask permission from a publication to use part of their work. If they upload it, they end up granting the Wikipedia authority to take GFDL enforcement action against anyone else they have licensed their work to. That's crazy - they have to be able to opt out of GFDL enforcement so that they can stick to their agreements with others. Otherwise they can't license things to the Wikipedia. Jamesday
In the mediawiki namespace text that appears at the bottom of every edit page directing users here should we not date when there was last any (substantial) changes were made to this page? Otherwise we could (theoretically) be sneaking in clauses that people are agreeing to without realizing. Course this is not likely to be a big deal in practice, but given that this is the area we are trying to get the legalistics right.... Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 12:56, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I think such a thing would be helpful. Remember that this page may be the first a new editor sees. We don't want to scare the heck out of him. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 12:56, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
This document is a legal contract, and as such should probably be protected, as we have protected the local copy of the GFDL. Thoughts?
James F.
(talk) 13:01, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Most of these agreements have notes that if a section of the agreement is deemed to be not legally enforceable, then it is stricken out, and the remainder of the terms are still in effect. Should this agreement have such a clause? Martin 21:29, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and added some general terms, including the severability clause and a procedure for making changes. — Alex756 02:38, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I'm not seeing the benefit of asserting penalty of perjury. What would this mean in practical terms? Martin 21:38, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Thanks Alex. :) Martin 18:39, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Hi, Alex, I think the submission standards are a good thing overall and applaud your work on them.
I do have some concerns, however.
First, we should MeatBall:AvoidIllusion and realize that something like this is not particularly compelling in a court of law. It's not a negotiated contract, and there's no quid pro quo. These are tough issues and there is really no way around them. There are also practical jurisdicitonal issues with contributors in, say, Belize, that make any sort of rational application difficult.
Second, I wonder what the real benefits are to Wikipedia in asking contributors to indemnify Wikipedia. It could end up costing a lot of money for someone if there is a (possibly groundless) suit, since they would be expected to defend Wikimedia at their expense. That is a lot to ask, and as with any indemnity clause it potentially removes Wikimedia's incentive to settle the matter simply and cheaply. That may scare contributors away. And it doesn't help Wikimedia much since there is no practical resources aginst most contributors because they are either outside the U.S. or do not have insurance or financial resources.
Third, I don't think the arbitration committee (of which I am a member) is qualified to arbitrate contract disputes. It was set up to resolve article disputes and has sort of been broadened to handle user behavior disputes. None of us are members of the American Arbitration Board (or whatever it's called). None of us, AFAIK, are licensed to practice law. As such, trying to arbitrate contract disputes is a) out of our league, and b) brings an unwanted liability burden to us.
My thoughts. IANAL, TINALO, etc. Yours, UninvitedCompany 23:49, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I don't think we have one of these do we? Might the launch of this page into the big time be the time to introduce one? In particular it might be nice to state somewhere that wikimedia reserves the right for a wikimedia developer (or in the future, a sysop?) to do a username to IP address look up for the purposes of tracing possible sock puppetry etc. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 23:58, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this is here yet, but the heading names suggest no; so I'll ask.
The idea of "retiring" old versions to archive status looks like a pretty good one; it means that we don't have to worry about copyright infringements in the history (at least not unless and until somebody specifically requests us to remove them). But when they're mentioned again at the end, it sounds like I might not be able to revert to a previous version! I'll explain:
Since Wikimedia -- probably, nobody -- is publishing A's version, does that mean that it's not available under the GNU FDL? Does that mean that C can't actually do this reversion without A's permission? Sure, A almost certainly would give permission -- but it could be a real pain to have to ask!
It's not clear to me what this archival theory says about this, but it seems as if the answers are technically "Yes, it does mean just that!".
-- Toby Bartels 00:24, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)
It is not without meaning. It does not state that one cannot copy it. And to quit publishing something is very significant; it happens all the time off the internet. If you publish a book under GFDL then people can only copy it if they have a copy of that book, they cannot publish drafts that you are not distributing. The wiki is not quite like books because wikis allows for multiple versioning and continual re-editing; one could argue that this is one reason that the GFDL is an inappropriate licencing tool for collaborative wiki-based knowledge base such as Wikipedia. There is nothing in the GFDL that states that a text cannot have current versions on the internet even if prior versions are available in the archives for archival purposes. This text is putting people on notice that not everything in history pages has been released under the GFDL because it is in violation of some law such as copyright law. If one has the option to use two texts and we are stating a preference to use the most current that is not in violation of the GFDL, it is just stating that user should use the current version. How does that violate the GFDL? Why would we want to encourage people to use materials that are old, out of date or incorrect or are not NPOV, if there is no current version that is being "published" vs. versions that have been retired from publication then there is little point in trying to improve articles, no? There is an argument that one cannot unilaterially remove a prior contribution of an author (as you cannot do this in Berne countries that actually comply with the moral rights provisions of Berne unlike the un-Berne US legislation that somehow continues to exist) and this is another reason that current versions take precedence over GFDL versions. Not everything in the GFDL is necessarily enforceable anyway, it remains untested; it would not suprise me if parts of it could be struck down as being unenforceable and even irrelevant, so why not protect all the Wikipedia contributors to make sure that the most complete versions are continually distributed rather than out of date, poorly edited stuff? — Alex756 03:20, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I've reworked the first paragraph of the archive notice section with these objectives:
Does anyone have any thoughts on the merits or otherwise of this edit? Jamesday 01:32, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)
re that sentence, feel free to remove it if you wish. However, please consider how to address the following questions without that sentence:
The Choice of Law section says that the contract is under the laws of the state of California, yet any legal action must take place in Florida. How is this possible? Presumably the Florida courts cannot enforce California state law. -- Delirium 06:52, Jan 19, 2004 (UTC)
Actually practically all disputes will be resolved by arbitration (this may not be the same arbitration as the arbitration committee, if the dispute does not have to do with some edit someone makes) so the only thing that will actually get to court is the decision of the arbitration and that will be in the court local to Jimbo in St. Petersburg Florida (hope Jimbo has no plans on moving to Alabama!) so the only time Wikimedia will ever go to court is if some former user is out there trying to overturn their arbitration agreement and they show up on Jimbo's home turf and want to argue about it in front of a judge. — Alex756 02:19, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
THIS PAGE IS STILL A DRAFT.
You must obey these rules when submitting any material to Wikipedia"
Summary
1.Submit text that you are willing to release under the
GNU FDL. You retain the copyright, but by releasing it under the GFDL allow anyone who fulfills certain requirements to copy, use, or modify it. You must be a legally competent adult to make this release.
2. Submit only lawful words, as unlawful words might cause serious consequences both to yourself and Wikipedia
3. If Wikipedia incurs legal expenses because of your contribution, it will try to recover them by suing you.
4. The text you write may be edited or deleted: Wikipedia has no obligation to retain it.
5. If you add
fair use material you must note clearly that it is being submitted as fair use and you must give your own analysis of the four factors that make such a contribution a non-infringing addition to any article (see e.g.,
how to document fair use). Your page or any submission you make may be deleted if it violates any of the Submission Standards or other
policies that are later developed on Wikipedia.
6. Wikipedia considers the current version of an article as the Wikipedia proper, and the historical pages as archives. Both the Wikipedia and its archives are released under the GDFL
7. Disobeying these rules may result in loss of your ability to edit or write for Wikipedia, at Wikipedia's sole discretion.
8. Wikipedia will act to ensure compliance with the GDFL.
Changes
This is a protected page which means that changes to it will only be made if they are done by a systems operator (sysop). Any proposed changes to this text should be made on the
Wikipedia:mailing lists and posted on the talk page here. After discussion such change will be made to this text, an additional twenty days will pass until such change takes effect, in any case any changes to these terms shall not take effect until they are posted a minimum of thirty days; during the second period additional discussion may take place on the mailing lists and the board of directors of Wikimedia Foundation Inc., may then revoke any changes as they see fit. See the page history for details on when changes are made. It is the user's responsibility to check this page for changes.
a proposal for a less hostile and less objectionable page -- Binky 11:04, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I am not sure it is less hostile. It is stating that Wikipedia will sue you. That is very hostile. Stating that Wikipedia can seek indemnification is much less hostile. Please state in detail what is "hostile" about stating that Wikipedia is an archive under § 107 of Title 17. This helps protect Wikipedia. What is also hostile about preventing people from sueing Wikipedia anywhere in the world. This is much more hostile it is giving any contributor the right to bring a lawsuit against Wikipedia anywhere in the world. Very hostile! I note that these terms are a contract as it states: "You must obey these rules", in other words you are bound by these rules. Also this is much more authoritarian than the other standards. Also why is it "hostile" to tell children who do not have the right to consent that there materials may be removed by their parents. What is hostile about that? Quite frankly I think this so called "kinder, gentler" version of the Submission Standards is more hostile that the version that is trying to help people understand what there relationship to Wikipedia is, if you read between the lines this is much more condescending and allows people to be hostile to Wikipedia (by suing Wikipedia) and Wikipedia to be hostile to them (by sueing them). Allowing Wikipedia to be a copyright compliance agent protects all Wikipedians, this text tells them that disobeying "Wikipedia" can result in a loss of your ability to edit or write" at "Wikipedia's sole discretion". For a non-corporal internet site Wikipedia is very condescending, no? There is no "Wikipedia" with volition or power over anyone, Wikipedia is a community association and as all association the Wikipedia community has the right to come up with collective rules which are essentially part of the implicit contract of association between these people. What is so objectionable about that? — Alex756 02:48, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)
No one is hiding anything. That is the whole point — you even agree with 99% of the content of the proposed Submission Standards, you just find some language objectionable and want everyone to go running to court. What specifically is your problem? I see you have not responded to the substance of my comments Binky. And you state that somehow this text means that the submissions are not released under the GFDL. That is not true at all! Delirum has a good point, the summary is clear and that is what most people will read, just like most people have never really spent any time reading the GFDL or the US Constitution, the Bible, Koran or Baghavad Gita. Perhaps you just dislike the fact that practically all sites on the internet have "Terms of Use" of which this is just another variation... At least when they adopt some variation of this text then you will never be able to argue that you didn't read it and didn't know what it meant. Obviously you have participated in the debate and have, by posting your version, demonstrated that you understand the principles behind it. Once it is adopted and you stick around Binky, you will be bound by it too, no doubt. — Alex756 | [http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alex756 talk] 06:56, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)
What does irrevocably buy us? I think we could work equally well with revocable appointments, given that we're allowing people to adopt it. Martin 00:22, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Ahh, so it's largely a timing issue then? Interesting - that's quite difficult to get around. We're almost saying that someone's very first edit would have to be to opt-out of copyright, or else they have to apply to the Board... Surely there's a better way of doing this? Martin 00:57, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Good job on the bullet point format for the Summary Martin. I put it before the TOC so that someone would see the summary first and not get lost in the TOC, otherwise I like what you did. — Alex756 [http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alex756 talk] 00:42, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
There are some terms here that aren't really about submission. Perhaps they should be on a seperate page? IMO, this page should discuss what people are agreeing to by submitting to Wikipedia, and we should have another page indicating what people are agreeing to by using Wikipedia at all. Perhaps at Wikipedia:terms of use? Martin 01:01, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
People should read that. It makes the sole recourse for any dispute with the Wikipedia an arbitration committee apointed exclusively BY the Wikipedia. The results of that are predictable - the Wikipedia will prevail every time, regardless of the merits. Jamesday 04:42, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Really, if an arbitration committee does not have a level of fairness it can be overturned by a court, so this would mean that the arbitrators have a high standard to make sure that they do their jobs well and not in a shoddy way. Also Jimbo has stated that the arbitration positions are to be elected (the committee is getting started with appointments to get some kind of structure but hopefully the elections for that committee will occur soon as the two members of the Board to be members reps must also be elected soon. With an elected committee we will have some power over arbitrators. If there decisions are unfair, throw them out! They will have to campaign on a platform of fairness, responsiveness, respect for user rights. Remember in most democracies judges are either appointed or elected, some think it is more democratic when they are appointed because they are specialists that must know the law, but others feel that elected judges are more answerable to the people and are less captured by special interests. I wouldn't mind a jury for certain kinds of cases, there is no reason that the Board of Trustees could not appoint a jury determination for certain kinds of arbitrations and there could be a random jury pool for that. Anyway, you don't get the right to chose the judges who rule your particular case they are always chosen randomly. — Alex756 [http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alex756 talk] 07:01, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Say you take action against the Board for some reason. Do you really expect that the Board would choose arbitrators who would do anything other than cause the Board to prevail? If you do today, what about the possible dismal future situation if there's a malicious Board we're all trying to remove? I do agree that this arbitration agreement is not going to be binding, because of that inherent defect, regardless of what it says, but it's good to write agreements which aren't problematic on their face. Jamesday 22:04, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
One addition whcih seems prudent: The Wikipedia can't take enforcement action for infringement of any GFDL clause which it is not itself complying with. There are arguments that the Wikipedisa isn't fully complying with the authors credit terms and that leaves open the possibility of the Wikipedia using a GFDL enfrocement grant to take action against anyone who doesn't comply because the Wikipedia itself is not providing the information needed to comply. I don't think the current board would do this but control can change and we've seen such problems in other projects which seemed to be public then experienced a change of management to a group with the desire to lock things up. Jamesday 04:32, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
No, because the agreement makes the Wikipedia the agent of the contributor, to enforce all of their GFDL rights. It gets that ability regardless of whether it is itself compying whatever clause it's claiming the other party isn't complying with. If they are still alive and hear about it the contributors could try to all grant the other party licenses but that's very unlikely to be a successful effort. Better to provide for the situation in advance and make it impossible. Jamesday 04:47, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The same reasons a third party might not comply: laziness, inconvenience. I think James's extra condition has some merit, especially given that we have no knowledge of how strictly a future court might interpret the GFDL. Martin 19:11, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
According to our article on OCILLA, a take-down notice requires "A physical or electronic signature of a person authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed". Since the GFDL grant to Wikipedia is a non-exclusive right, would I be correct in thinking that Wikimedia cannot issue takedown notices according to the OCILLA provisions? Martin 00:00, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
So, let me try to restate that to see if I understand. Your interpretation is that the "exclusive right" simply means copyrighted text as opposed to public domain text. Thus I still have an "exclusive right" even if I sublicense Wikipedia to use my content. Thus I can assign Wikipedia to enforce that right, and Wikipedia can enforce it. However, there are other interpretations of this passage. Martin 21:22, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)~
In all cases if you submit anything you are responsible for the submission, not Wikipedia. Should there be any legal consequences you specifically agree that you indemnify and hold harmless Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation Inc., Bomis Inc. their officers, directors or agents, and the other volunteers of Wikipedia. Such indemnification includes costs and reasonable attorneys fees; you indemnify these entities and individuals from any claims, suits, causes of action in law or equity, judgments, levies, fines, whatsoever from the time of your first contribution to Wikipedia or any other Wikimedia project. Any individual making a submission to Wikipedia will not benefit from this indemnification vis-à-vis other contributors if their submissions are in violation of these standards.
Indemnification means that you will cover the costs and damages that may be levied against these entities or individuals for your conduct. This only seems fair as it is your conduct. Wikipedia and the other volunteers have no real control over your submissions. However, as long as your submissions are lawful you should have no worry that you will have any liability under this term of your agreement with this project.
By contributing to Wikipedia, you agree that the Wikimedia Foundation may publish your submission, before or after being modified as described above, under one or more of:
Is there any point to this? All past contributors have submitted their text with the knowledge that they were doing so under the real GFDL, not some Wikipedia FDL. So how does enforcing this on new contributors change anything? Wouldn't users of our content still have to abide by section 4B for all articles edited before these submission standards go live? Angela . 02:31, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)
What are the plans for implementing this. Will it be a clickthrough for all users? What about anonymous submitters? Will any advance warning be given? For those of us who decide not to agree, will we be able to participate anywhere on Wikipedia? The talk pages? Our user page? Will we still be allowed to have a watch list? Anthony DiPierro 02:48, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Actually I have at least one problem with Wikipedia:Submission Standards (a) too. It won't keep me from contributing, though. I just don't plan on following it.
As for this version:
1) "If someone uses your contributions on another site without complying with the GFDL, you authorise Wikimedia to take steps to make sure that such third parties comply."
2) "You agree to release Wikipedia and all sublicensees from section 4B of the GFDL."
3) "You hereby appoint Wikimedia Foundation Inc., or any of its duly authorized volunteers agents, to act as your copyright compliance officer..."
4) "You have not opted out of this clause or you applied to opt out of this clause less than one month ago."
5) "This opt-out only covers edits you have made that are your own original work."
6) "By using the Wikipedia site in any manner you are deemed to be aware of this agreement."
7) "After such discussion such change will be made to this text, an additional twenty days will pass until such change takes effect"
The key problems are 1) and 4). 5) and 7) just need to be clarified. And 6) is just stupid. Anthony DiPierro 20:34, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
How much does the above poster know about contract law and the enforceability of contracts? Contracts in most jurisdictions are interpreted by the reasonable understanding and acts of the parties; not the actual subjective intent of the parties which is the case in most civil law jurisdictions such as France or Puerto Rico. Perhaps the above individual lives in civilian jurisdiction; the US is mostly common law and the law applicable here. Regarding shrink-wrap licenses they are generally enforceable: See ProCD v. Zeidenberg 86 F.3d 1447 (7th Cir., 1996) and Hill v. Gateway 2000, Inc. 105 F.3d 1147 (7th Cir., 1997) cert denied, 522 U.S. 808 (1997). In ProCD the court stated: "[s]hrinkwrap licenses are enforceable unless their terms are objectionable on grounds applicable to contracts in general (for example, if they violate a rule of positive law, or if they are unconscionable)." (at 1449). The Courts of New York, a pre-eminent commercial jurisdiction has also held that a shrink-wrap license is enforceable, Brower v. Gateway 2000, In.c 246 A.D.2d 246, 676 N.Y.S.2d 569 (N.Y. App. Div., 1998).
Also, I do not think that a string of words can be "retarded." This is an improper use of language. A sentence can be incorrect: it cannot be retarded. The meaning of the word retarded as an adjective is: "retarded": adj : relatively slow in mental or emotional or physical evelopment; "providing a secure and sometimes happy life for the retarded" [ant: precocious] (Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University). The word "retarded" is often seen as an offensive expletive. I can only think that the word "retarded" as used above is really a comment meant to illicit a negative response (see definition of trolling), n'est pas? — Alex756 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alex756 talk] 22:22, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
As of this moment, my only major issue with agreeing to this is issue 4), the one month waiting period for opt-out. I have lots of other issues, in that I don't think Wikipedia should be given this power by default in the first place, but that's not an issue with whether or not I would personally agree to this. Anthony DiPierro 19:43, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
cf [2].
Since Jimbo has made this "official", to some degree, at some point we should make accepting this interpretation part of the submission standards, which will allow us to be rather more confident that redistributors can use it, and increase our safeguards against users who disagree with it demanding that all their text be removed. However, as this is likely to be controversial, it's something for a later version, I expect. Martin 13:01, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Wow, that was fun. Talk about relative bargaining power. I wish all contracts had an edit button. I made a series of changes, some technical, some for clarity, and some for fairness. Perhaps the most significant was to the "notification" section. It is unfair to expect users to regularly check the page history, and to threaten them with implicit agreement to arbitrary conditions if they do not. Changes should be announced, and should not be binding unless they are. -- Tim Starling 15:28, Jun 21, 2004 (UTC)
These submission standards apply to any and all contributions you make to Wikipedia irrespective of date or the then status of the terms and conditions of your submission.
This is problematic. According to this, it seems that if I one day log in and the submission standards have been modified, they are automatically applied to all contributions I have ever made. Considering that I am considered bound to this agreement merely by reading Wikipedia, and that I have no way to terminate the agreement, this is completely unacceptable.
This needs to be removed, better notification of a change (and more importantly, notification of the initial institution of the standards) needs to be incorporated, and there needs to be a way to refuse or terminate the agreement.
You can't terminate the entire thing, because the GFDL can't be retracted. I believe that you're bound not by reading, but by editing (reading is the wikipedia:terms of use). Tim has edited to give better notification - is this sufficient? Martin 23:56, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)