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Ok, it's highly discouraged to follow someone, according to editing here?
Um, you know, user contributions is a page there for a reason, are folks making this page advocating it should be removed? In that case, shouldn't this be a request on our bug tracking software, and not a wikipedia page?
In any case, I don't understand, and this page doesn't really establish reasons why or why not. Please clarify! Kim Bruning 07:45, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm moving this essay here from the main page. This is one editor's view. - Willmcw 19:23, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
Definition - Wiki-
stalking occurs when an editor abusively trails another editor around wikipedia by way of his or her user contributions page. It entails an evidenced distinctive editing pattern in which one user intentionally follows another editor around wikipedia for purposes that are not constructive to the encyclopedia's content or conducive to its collaborative environment. It occurs when one editor continuously and repeatedly follows another editor between multiple unrelated articles over an extended period of time and a wide variety of unrelated subjects for the purpose of making excessive "followup" changes to the original editor's work - often for the purpose of harassment, disruption, or deconstructing the stalked editor's work for reasons that are not in compliance with Wikipedia policies or guidelines.
Why it's a problem - Wiki-stalking is an abuse of the user contributions function on wikipedia. This is a tool that otherwise serves valuable purposes in combatting vandalism and problematic users, but like any tool it can be abused when used in excess or with malicious intent. Stalking is problematic because it exhibits incivility, subjects individual editors to unwarranted harassment, and violates the request that all wikipedians should Wikipedia:Assume good faith about other editors. Often times a stalker conducts himself with the intent of driving another editor away from Wikipedia through a series of harassing and hostile behavior. The most notorious case of wiki-stalking to date involved a user who consciously trailed another well established wikipedian's edits with daily "followup" work conducted to the same articles, most of it minor and unnecessary. [1] Even though the stalker edits were minor, the behavior was deemed to be harassing because it was done intentionally to harass the victimized editor. The case was settled by direct intervention from Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales, who permanently blocked the stalker for "making a pest of himself" and disrupting the encyclopedia.
Stalking problems
I reformatted and added to the article to improve its organization. Since the recent Arbcom definition of wiki-stalking is probably the most substantive definition of this term, so I moved it to the top under a "Definition" header. I also reorganized the subsequent descriptions of stalking both from this page and the material that's from my user page into a general header on Wikipedian viewpoints about stalking to differentiate them from the official Arbcom ruling. I also copyedited the article in general to give it a better flow and add clarifications. Rangerdude 18:39, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
The guideline tag probably isn't appropriate for use yet since this has not been generally noticed nor has it been accepted by the community as a guideline. (when people quote it on RFA, RFC, and RFAr then you know the community has noticed it, for the moment it's probably best just to keep the tag off. Jtkiefer T | @ | C ----- 07:54, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
If it will help even things out I will bring a charge of wikistalking against user:Rangerude. ;) - Willmcw 22:56, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
Greetings - I added a proposal tag to this guideline for the purpose of aiding in its development and to gather community assistance and input on its contents. For wikipedians who are unfamiliar or unaware with this article or its subject matter, it was created recently for the purpose of reflecting two recent Wikipedia dispute resolution precedents in which the Arbcom and Jimbo Wales determined that certain harassing forms of wiki-stalking are bannable disruptions carrying substantial penalties for abuse. The aim of this article is accordingly to explain and clarify the concept of wiki-stalking in light of these decisions. New contributers should take a moment to review these precedents, which are described and linked to here. Suggestions pertaining to this article's proposal tag and recommended changes should be discussed in the area located below this header, as should questions or comments regarding clarification and formatting. Thank you for your input! Rangerdude 21:07, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Having been seriously harrassed by a user who accused me of cyberstalking him because I used his contribs to check his edits given the extreme POV nature of his edits (eg sticking paternity rights all over the opening paragraph of abortion). I think the page in it's present form is wide open to abuse by people who have good reasons not to want their edits scrutinised, eg POV warriors etc. Not enough attention is given to this and I fear it will be another tool whereby bad users can harrass good ones, SqueakBox 23:47, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
Is there any way of figuring out the status of that account BTW? It is under a permanent block without an arbcom decision?-- Silverback 23:53, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
Two cases, one by arbcom and one by Jimbo Wales. That should say something. The manhours of work this policy will generate will be massive. many editors tend to stick to a set of articles defined by their watchlist, which means overlap with other editors must occur. Then if a new article is linked to an existing article, many editors from the old article will move to the new one. Cries of "stalking" will be heard throughout the land. From a purely objective view, it will appear to be true. one editor started editing an article, and suddenly a number people he knows are editing it too. Sorting out the editor histories will be a pure effort of manual labor. There will be no other way to figure out any charge of "stalking". You can't just look at edit timestamps in contribution histories and compare, you've got to determine a pattern of edit-response, edit-response. You then have to determine that it isn't really bad edit-response, bad edit-response. And it comes down to a subjective interpretation. It will be extremely easy to accuse someone of wiki-stalking, the number of hours that people will have to put into determining it to be true or false will be huge. I keep hearing that arbcom is behind on its cases; this will make it worse. Even worse, the accusation is as difficult to disprove as it is to prove, which means that RFC's charging editors with "wiki-stalking" will be an excellent way to game the system, make an accusation that is impossible to disprove in any objective way, and get a bunch of allies to swamp the certification/endorsement section with signatures. Any policy that encourages cliquish behaviour and even rewards it is seriously asking for wikipedia trouble. Unless someone can convince me these issues are invalid, I strongly oppose this idea. FuelWagon 23:59, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I suspect dropping the whole policy idea is the best way to deal with cyberstalking. The whole watchlist system and open contribs is to some people a licence for others others to stalk them, while for others these are a sign of our openness, and should not be abandoned in the name of cyberstalking. Did I mention the above mentioned stalking accuser in my example was using a sockpuppet, and therefore did not want any scrutiny of his acts, for this reason particularly. Do we want people to be able to hide what they are doing by demanding others don't get involved in the articles they are editing ("you can't edit this article, Englishperson, its about the States, and this is the proof that you are stalking me"). I fear this policy in anything like its current form will, if enacted, lead to disaster. There are other ways to stop negative cyberstalking than this one, hence the 2 successful arbcome cases already, which to me indicate we don't need a policy page on this. I can well imagine 9 out of 10 cases brought under this policy being false claims, esp as most genuine cyberstalkers break the rules in some other way, whereas the bad faith editor who has nothing to pin on a good faith editor will probably use this to latch onto, SqueakBox 02:17, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
Given what you say I have started to edit the page, SqueakBox 04:37, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
Edits I just made and their purposes:
1. I added links to specific Wikipedia policies that may apply under the "good" stalking section (e.g. Vandalism, NPOV) and sentence encouraging editors to familiarize themselves with these if they are following for that reason. The purpose of this is to augment and clarify the previous sentence "it is a good idea to have a justification for such activity."
2. I removed the phrase "POV pushing" from "bad stalking" section and replaced it with a reference to violations of "Wikipedia policies and guidelines." This includes the NPOV policy, which I believe to be the object here. My concern is that while WP:NPOV is spelled out as a policy, the term "POV pushing" is not and is subjectively applied. It concerns me that the addition of this term may have been to create a loophole by which an otherwise discouraged type of stalking could continue so long as the stalker simply declares "But you're a POV pusher" in his/her own judgment. A loophole of this type is very dangerous because it provides an easy out for otherwise abusive stalkers while in reality doing very little to enforce the real POV policy at WP:NPOV.
3. I restored another editor's deletion of disruption and deconstruction of work for reasons other than WP policies and guidelines as potential types of wikistalking. The Wales precedent explicitly named disruption as a type of stalking. Deconstruction is self evident and applies to the type of stalking in which a stalker goes through and reverts or deletes his subject's edits for reasons other than those permitted by WP policies and guidelines. Rangerdude 18:17, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
This text, particularly the part about "dismantling edits", goes way beyond the precedents set by the ArbCom and Wales. They both talk "wikistalking" as following an editor with an intent to harass, not with an intent to "dismantle the edits". There is nothing wrong with dismantling the edits of another editor. If the problem is not obeying other policies and guidelines then we don't need to repeat them here. Wikistalking, plain and simple, is following an in order to editor to harass them.
So, the proposal talks about the difference between good stalking and bad stalking. The proposal says it's ok to follow someone around and fix their bad edits. That's good stalking. This means that what's left is bad stalking. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that mean that the proposal is trying to make a policy that says it is against policy to follow someone around and break policy? The more I think about this, given the can of worms this "stalking" policy would open, I am more and more of the mind that existing policy should handle the problem editor. And problematic edge-cases should be left to arbcom and jimbo to make a command decision. FuelWagon 19:58, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Since there continues to be confusion over this matter with some editors, please see Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines
Thanks. Rangerdude 20:11, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
The "Precedents" section had a lot of POV interpretation so I have tried to make it NPOV by simply quoting the applicable decisions. The final guideline, if approved, probably should only footnote the precedents. Their place here is perhaps best considered as an aid to guideline-making. - Willmcw 23:03, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
Will - Please address the following issues with your proposed rewrite.
Please address these concerns and please conduct yourself in a manner that is more conducive to Wikipedia's consensus policy. Rangerdude 07:55, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
Please conduct yourself in a more civil manner too. That would really be appreciated.
As for the pov, there's a lot!
"Deemed inherently abusive"? Cite please. They've never deemed any such thing. What they actually deemed is in the original text.
We need to mention that these editors were also engaged in other trolling or unhelpful behaviors.
"Against the stalker"? So now we're calling them stalkers? Whatever happened to "users" or "editors"?
Notable Aaccording to whom?
He was banned for a variety of offenses.
Wales decision said much more than that. By cherry picking quotes a false impression of the case is being presented.
Wales himself says all of this in a much simpler, clearer, and more authoritative manner.
The cases were not similar at all. Who says they were similar?
What's the idea of all the easter egg wikilinks? He was penalized fora variety of offenses.
If we quote them here, why don't we just quote them all the way along? These are "precedents", not "interpretations".
In sum, there are so many problems with the interpretation text that it's just easier, and better, to simply list the actual words of the authorities, rather than Rangerdude's spin on them. Also, I agree that once (if) this is adopted then we should reduce the precednets down to links. Until then it is helpful to see the actual texts in order for the Wikipedia community to evaluate the material for themselves. - Willmcw 08:20, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
1.You complain ""Deemed inherently abusive"? Cite please." My citation is Jimbo Wales' ruling, which stated of TRT's behavior of following RickK constituted "disrupting wikipedia to illustrate a point." [3]
2. You object to "and have resulted in penalties against the editor engaged in stalking." This is a simple matter of fact, Will, not a POV. The stalking behavior of both users were specifically identified in the bannings and was a primary offense in both. Skyring was banned "for wiki-stalking and acting in bad faith towards other contributors" and TRT was banned for "Going around pestering RickK pointlessly and writing inane messages to the mailing list."
3. You assert that quoting the passage from Wales on TRT's stalking is "cherry-picking" and assert that "Wales decision said much more than that." The remainder of Wales' decision pertained to the ongoing dispute about the David Gerard block and the arbitration. There is no need to quote all that. If you wish to add that Wales also cited TRT for "writing inane messages to the mailing list" in addition to stalking why not simply add that quote? I would not object, and doing so would not unnecessarily reprint an entire decision that is easily found by a link as you seek.
4. You complain of the case's described similarity "The cases were not similar at all. Who says they were similar?" Now you're just being difficult, Will. Both cases involved a user who was stalking another user's edits, got taken to dispute resolution for that stalking, and got banned for that stalking - that is the similarity.
5. You say of Skyring "What's the idea of all the easter egg wikilinks? He was penalized fora variety of offenses." Actually, no Will. He wasn't. The final decision of the Arbcom against Skyring stated only two reasons for his banning - one specific one (wikistalking) and one about his behavior in general (acting in bad faith). That is not a "variety of offenses." The bad faith stipulation was also quoted in full in the original version. Rangerdude 08:45, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
Question: Should the precedents section of this article summarize the two cases or reprint their rulings in full? Please post applicable comments here. Rangerdude 18:36, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
And if the material is not simply reprinted, how should it be summarized so that bias is not introduced? - Willmcw 19:20, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
According to the following text by Willmcw posted on July 5th regarding the establishment of guideline provisions of the same purpose as this for wikistalking, he wrote:
As these sentiments convey a position of opposition to the establishment of an anti-stalking guideline to reflect the Wales and Arbcom decisions, as is the purpose here, and as Willmcw is actively editing this guideline proposal and, of recent, denying his opposition to it, he is requested to clarify the above comments from last month, indicate if he still believes in them and if so in what way, and state whether he supports or opposes the guideline proposal that is the object of this discussion. Thank you. Rangerdude 19:34, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
After reading over the guideline and this talk page in full, I have come to the conclusion that this is not a good guideline. The points that have been made about how effetively impossible it is to disprove mean that, while the concept may be relevant as further evidence of disruptive behavior, it is not sufficient to be a stand alone, seperate guideline. If the page was rewritten to specify a clearer way it could be disproven, then it might be valuable, but, until and unless that happens, I do not consider it a good guideline. JesseW 07:30, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I believe it's time to put an end to this discussion, as it's not going anywhere. Like the earlier "Wikiblower protection" and "Forbid infobox standardization" proposals, it is something that is vehemently pushed by one editor, and perceived as a patently bad idea by just about everybody else. But since polls are evil, let's make it a bit simpler. Within the next couple of days, I'd like to see three signatures here of users who think this proposal is, in principle and possibly with objections to the current wording, a good idea. If such people cannot be found, this proposal will be summarily rejected. R adiant _>|< 14:01, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
I would like to know why Rangerdude just wrote asking the sockpuppet and dangerous troll Agwiii ( talk · contribs) to contribute. Agwiii is a sockpuppet of RexJudicata ( talk · contribs) who hjas been permanently blocked for making death thjreats. By inviting bad faith users to participate in this page we will end with a bad faith page, SqueakBox 19:33, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
He says he didn't know anything about Agwiii, and I have asked him to remove it, SqueakBox 19:42, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
Cheers, much appreciated, SqueakBox 19:49, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
Following someone's edits and making useful changes to every article they changed is a good thing. I like the fact that I can create seeds, come back after a while and read new and interesting things about subjects I care about. There are already guidelines that say not to making changes that are bad changes or pointless changes. Further, one person's "bad" change is another person's "good" change and throwing around yet another wiki-personal-insult (stalking) doesn't help sort out which POV was most NPOV. (you're stalkimg me. YOU'RE INSULTING ME. stop yelling - that breaks the civility rule. stop wiki-lawyering. that's just your POV.) WAS 4.250 19:38, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Reviewing another editor's contributions only becomes problematic when the ensuing changes are in and of themselves problematic. The examples cited above all involve other violations of Wikiquitte, notably WP:NPA and WP:FAITH. I believe we should enforce those policies rather than creating this one.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with reviewing another editor's contributions and correcting them when a pattern of errors exists. This is done all the time by people who find that a particular contributor:
Some problems such as link spam and bias may seem innocuous when viewed one article at a time but present a much different picture when viewed in the context of an editor's overall contributions.
Having a policy against reviewing another contributor's edits would be a gift to trolls and POV pushers, who would happily take it as a means to amplify their usual chorus of compliants against The WikiManagement. By means of a concrete example, would draw everyone's attention to the matter of User:Wikinerd's contributions and the careful work User:Texture and I have done to review them and remove link spam. Wikinerd, upset by our work, responded with the usual barrage of withering criticism: an RFC, a mailing list post, a request for mediation, &c &c &c. I am absolutely sure that User:Texture and I would have been accused of Wikistalking if we had a policy forbidding it.
The Uninvited Co., Inc. 19:46, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm glad to see this was brought up. I was about to talk about it. In "Following editors who don't have track records of vandalism or other editing in violation of Wikipedia policies and guidelines could be viewed as an inappropriate or disproportionate response to their actions." - it talks about "track records of vandalism..." - this doesn't even attempt to handle rotating IPs or first edits. The two situations mostly likely for a spammer, vandal, or uninitiated user. (The last is wiggle room for Wikinerd since I don't want to label the user.) How would these be handled? - Tεx τ urε 22:38, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Just saw this edit. Just wondering if there's any guideline for when a proposed policy can be marked "rejected". The support for this proposal appears to be limited to the people who proposed it. Everyone else seems to be against it in one form or another. Maybe I'm reading the comments wrong. FuelWagon 22:20, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
· Katefan0 (scribble) 22:29, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
Clearly Uninvited has people in agreement with him/her, SqueakBox 22:44, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
This request is for editors who object to particular parts of this article as it is currently phrased. Please state the sentence or sentences you disagree with in numbered quotations as well as a summary of reasons and what you changes you would prefer for purposes of discussion. I believe that doing so would provide greater clarity as to what further changes, if any, can and should be made to bring this proposal closer to a level of obtaining consensus. Editors are also asked to place their numbered sentences in a subheader (three equal signs) and to sign their comments with 4 tildes. Thanks. Rangerdude 22:55, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
This poll shall last for a week (i.e. until 23:29, 26 August 2005 (UTC)).
TEMPLATE FOR ALTERNATIVE PROPOSALS
{Add sentences, summary, and/or links to revisions here}
(sign with ~~~~)
{Add sentences, summary, and/or links to revisions here}
Description - The revision at the above link is a "bare-bones" version of a proposed wikistalking guideline. It contains only the official definition of wikistalking agreed to by the Arbcom and links to the two wikistalking precedents. I posted this to form the basis of building the guideline from the grounds up in light of stated objections to the current text and interpretations within it on this proposal. Comments and additions to it are welcome by clicking the above link, or may be discussed here. Rangerdude 23:29, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
(sign with ~~~~)
Why do we keep fighitng over the precedents? I thought that several editors had talk about and edited them on the main page. Why does a proposed draft start by overriding that consensus? I don't really see the purpose of a second draft anyway. Let's work on the one, main draft. - Willmcw 00:21, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
I think it is important, indeed vital, that everyone is free to edit this public draft. If anyone wants to work on a private, second, possible alternative draft they can do so within therir user space, SqueakBox 01:57, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
There are several editors with whom I share interests in various topic areas and whose work I am generally interested in a postive way (editors who focus on Canadian politics for instance). I will, from time to time when looking for things to contribute to, check out their user contributions and edit some of the articles they've been editing (or particularly new articles they've begun). I rarely reverse their edits, usuaally I'll do simple copy editing or make the odd correction if I notice an error in factt, and generally I will add information to the articles if I can (most often I just read the article for my own interest). No one has ever complained about my doing this, indeed, from time to time one of these editors will put a message on my talk page asking me to review an article they've written and, from time to time I'll do the same for them. My point is we have to be careful when talking about "Stalking" to make the point that checking "User contributions" can be a tool in collaborative editing amongst those editors who have similar interests - of course the crucial matter is whether or not one is acting in "good faith". Homey 00:43, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Personally I like the general idea of rules aimed at limiting "stalking" type behavior. But it's difficult to define. In this case, I think the definition is actually too restrictive: "The term wikistalking or wiki-stalking describes a pattern of editing behavior in which one contributor intentionally follows and makes changes to the edits of another solely for the purpose of harassment or disruption."
The term "solely" is too limiting. Statutes rarely use such language when attempting to regulate conduct. Rather, it should be sufficient to classify an action as stalking if "one of" its "primary" purposes is harassment or disruption; or, perhaps, even if this is one of its "significant" purposes.
I was wikistalked and harrassed when I first joined wiki slightly more than one month ago. I am still being harrassed by bullies who are trying push their POV. It is important that there be protection from wikistalking, esp. for new users. I fully support the effort here. If there are any votes or if my assistance is needed, please let me know. Thanks!-- Agiantman 05:10, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
(Why is it that I see things differently from so many others? The Republicrats and the Demicans slug it out on teevee sponsored by the DAR and I just fall asleep. I just came back from BAR Camp and I confess, I didn't see the point of 3/4 of the conversation. Maybe I'm just getting old.)
This proposal is focusing on the wrong thing and trying to make an impossible distinction.
I don't care who reads my edits; and if those edits suck, I don't care if the same editor follows me all over the project fixing my boo-boos. At some point, I expect, he'll get tired of cleaning up my mess and contact me directly on my talk page. If not, then may all the gods bless him. I'll just keep on editing sloppy and he can just be the man with the broom behind the elephant.
On the other hand, if my edits don't suck, then I really get hot when other editors screw my work up. If I see it happen, I'm quite likely to notice the offender on his talk page. If he won't stop, I'll drag his butt to whatever forum I think will give me satisfaction soonest.
It's the gray area that gives trouble. I have my opinion, you have yours. Fine. Maybe we work it out on the side, maybe we work it out in talk, maybe we have a little revert war and both go on a few days' block. I think every member should get blocked once in awhile. It's good for the soul, encourages humility, gives you a chance to get up from the screen and shoot some hoops, and shows you're not afraid to stand up for your principles and get your knuckles dusty. Of course, a little goes a long way.
"Stalking", as a pattern of behavior, is the same in wikispace and meatspace; it is always victimization of the weak by the weak. The stalkee is weak, because a strong person cannot be stalked; he knows the ropes and has the means to fight back -- stalking implies the stalkee is running away. The stalker is weak, because a strong person will opt for more effective and honest methods of discrediting or abusing an enemy.
Thus, any discussion always implies a third party, stronger than those involved, who is to step in and halt the behavior. Well, if I'm called upon to be the third party, I really don't need to be given a special definition of stalking, or try to figure out whether the questionable behavior fits yet another technical box. I just ask: Is the action in policy? If the accused "stalker" is making good edits politely, then that's fine. If not, then I don't need to label that party; his edits (or edit summaries) suck, that's all; and I'll revert them. Soon, the stalker will be the stalkee; and perhaps yet another party will wonder if my edits are any good. And that's the way it should be.
We should make a special effort to welcome newcomers, and not with a big ugly boilerplate box. We should watch for new, well-intentioned editors, assume good faith, and help them adjust to the way we do things around here. When some questionable member starts following the noo guy around with stupid reverts or other pettifogging edits, we should not only revert those specifically to the noo guy; we should take the time to explain, personally, to the noo guy directly; that nothing is ever really lost around here, that we're watching the watcher; and that all will be well.
I don't disagree that stalking is a problem -- it certainly is! But all stalking is also another kind of problem -- bad editing, personal attack, or both. It's much easier to define and identify these actions, and censure them, than to define and identify yet another boundary of acceptable action.
So: First, identify bad action; then take counteraction. If somewhere along the way you want to guess at the actor's intent and label it, fine -- but don't start on those shifting sands, and don't waste too much effort in such amusement.
And don't let anyone bully you! — Xiong 熊 talk * 10:38, 2005 August 20 (UTC)
I added a real life example for following vs. stalking. I'm really depressed about a something personal and I don't know if it came out right. Can someone provide another example? I won't edit again for a while ChoobWriter 17:17, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Your real life example felt like it was straying from the point too much. given the controversial nature of the page it seems especially important not to do so, SqueakBox 17:22, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
The case of Skyring and jtdirl is interesting. Skyring has explained his behaviour several times, most recently here. A look through his contributions at the relevant times bears this out. He made a large number of good edits on various articles (many sourced from Recent Changes) before checking on user:jtdirl, whose raw material is error-ridden and often overly prolix, notably in his trying to cram too many concepts into a single sentence. All edits on jtdirl's material were good ones, and many corrected some major errors.
However, there is something in jtdirl's psychology that makes it hard, if not impossible, for him to admit to any errors. His typical response to correction is reversion followed by disputation and he exists at the centre of an ongoing series of lame edit wars. He is reminiscent of the Soup Nazi except that his soup isn't that good; most of his edits are based around templates or repeating the same information across various articles and then linking it. He could best be described as anal-obsessive with a touch of paranoia. Wiki-follow him for a while and you'll see this in operation. -- Halfinch 19:48, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
He is now regarded as a sockpuppet of banned Wikistalker
User:Skyring.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
20:13, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I guess people will have to trace Halfinch and if it turns out to be Skyring, under the ArbComm ruling, restart his one year ban from 20 August 2005.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
22:59, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Remember that message at the bottom of the edit box? If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it.
If one user follows another and their edits do not diminish the quality of Wikipedia or extend a problem further or intentionally create more disputes with the user being followed [such as by indiscriminant reversion of their changes], then on what basis are the edits a problem? A person followed may be annoyed by minor changes to their work which might not seem to be either an improvement or a diminishment, but this does not mean they should be considered an abuse.
If a user is making abusive or useless edits, then it is primarily the quality of Wikipedia that they are hurting, and the quality of all other contributions -- not just that of the person who happened to be the most recent editor to the article. The following is just a possible modus operandi of the kind of abuse that should already be in violation of other policies, and need not be a specific breach of policy just by itself -- although it is true that following may exacerbate a situation, if a dispute has already arisen between a user and a follower.
I think these may be circumstances which can only really be dealt with fairly on a case-by-case basis, and the primary offense is the abuse, and ruining of the other user's work if that is what is happening, not the actual following. -- Mysidia ( talk) 01:52, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Though many changes made in this revision are good, a couple have some problems and take the guideline down a path that I do not believe it should go.
1. The opening paragraph added to viewpoints on stalking should be substantially revised to make it more neutral and informative or removed entirely - "The presence of the "User Contributions" page for each user was, at the time of its introduction, unique to Wikipedia and not used by other wikis then extant. Together with the watchlist feature, it set the stage for what has become the world's largest wiki. The easy ability of any user to review the contributions of any other user was among the defining features of the project, making it distinct from other wikis." The paragraph appears to be simply one editor's POV on the virtues of the user contributions page and promoting it as the defining essence of wikipedia. I don't see what place this has in an article on wikistalking.
2. The sentence "even though the practice of monitoring user contributions has proven vital in maintaining a quality encyclopedia" is problematic for similar reasons. It's one thing to tell editors that they can follow a user contribution page when they aren't doing it for harassment, it's an entirely different thing to be an advertisement to promote the following of user contributions. We should inform editors that they can indeed use the user contributions feature, but we shouldn't be running around promoting it as if it were some end-all "defining" and "vital" tool when that's just the opinion of an editor who likes it as a tool.
3. The change of describing the user contributions feature as a "tool that otherwise serves valuable purposes" to "a tool that most often serves valuable purposes" again seems to introduce a strong POV favoring the user contributions feature. A more neutral wording may be in order that neither promotes nor discourages its value, e.g. "a tool that can serve valuable purposes"
4. A strong interpretive sentence was added to the "precedents" section, changing it from a neutral "Wiki-stalking has been a part of at least two Arbitration Committee proceedings" to "Wiki-stalking has been mentioned in at least two Arbitration Committee proceedings. The degree to which this establishes any meaningful precedent is disputed, because both cases had many non-stalking elements." It was urged at the time that this section's description was changed to quoting the precedents directly that doing so would allow the reader to come to this judgment about what the cases entailed him or herself. UninvitedCo's addition indirectly takes a position with phrases such as "many non-stalking elements," which are debatable contentions in themselves. This is particularly the case for the Skyring decision in which the Arbcom was explicit in stating its remedy that wikistalking, which the Arbcom also defined, was the main offense: "Skyring banned for wikistalking." [11] A more neutral way of approaching this would probably be to restore the previous version that makes no attempt at interpretation if this is the way we're going to approach the precedents section. Otherwise the stated purpose of quoting the cases in full rather than simply summarizing is defeated. Rangerdude 04:19, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
The opening paragraph is history. While there may be a variety of points of view on role of User Contributions and Watchlist in the Wiki today, the historical role is clear. These features were developed for Wikipedia as extensions to the Usemod wiki originally in use here, and were retained when Usemod was replaced by the MediaWiki software now in use.
I believe that most Wikipedians would agree that "the practice of monitoring user contributions has proven vital in maintaining a quality encyclopedia" and believe that the statement belongs here to better frame the limits of use of user contributions in a reasonable way. I also believe that most Wikipedians believe that User Contributions is "a tool that most often serves valuable purposes." If we're going to have a wikistalking policy, we should make it clear that the extensive legitimate use of these features is not its target.
Regarding the precedents, the cases are quoted selectively, which is why I added the interpretive note. I read through the cases and neither of them, read in its entireity with all evidence and opinions, is chiefly about stalking. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 17:25, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
My chief concern here, which I started to bring up with RangerDude, is that someone might try to change the definition of "stalking" so that it includes legitimate attempts by sysops and others to prevent systematic damage to this project.
Particularly, they might get people to say "stalking" as a synonym for "reviewing my contribs".
This already happened with "POV" being used as synonym for "bias" or "biased" - which is really harmful and disruptive to the project. Because people automatically assume that "POV" is the opposite of NPOV and hence "obviously bad for articles". The result is that people often completely ignore Jimbo's idea that a balanced, neutral article SHOULD INCLUDE MULTIPLE POINTS OF VIEW.
I beg you all to review Wikipedia:POV and see that "POV" is not bad. The controversial subjects must include multiple POV's. So please stop using "POV" to label sections of text you want left out, deleted or censored. Say "biased" instead, and try to make suggestions on how we can correct bias by attribuiting POV to its advocate.
Likewise, I beg you not to create yet another buzzword that makes it harder for Admins to identify patterns of disruption. Please do not let "stalking" get redefined so that systematically correcting another contributor's edits becomes grounds for RFC'ing or RFArb'ing someone.
This is worse than feeding trolls. It's growing the food for them!! Uncle Ed 02:19, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
I've already seen people successfully
In light of the mounting criticism for a guideline that, at first sight, seems perfectly rational, I propose we merge this page with Wikipedia:Harassment to set the proper tone. — Ambush Commander( Talk) 02:28, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This redirect was nominated at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion on 11 January 2012. The result of the discussion was keep. |
Ok, it's highly discouraged to follow someone, according to editing here?
Um, you know, user contributions is a page there for a reason, are folks making this page advocating it should be removed? In that case, shouldn't this be a request on our bug tracking software, and not a wikipedia page?
In any case, I don't understand, and this page doesn't really establish reasons why or why not. Please clarify! Kim Bruning 07:45, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm moving this essay here from the main page. This is one editor's view. - Willmcw 19:23, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
Definition - Wiki-
stalking occurs when an editor abusively trails another editor around wikipedia by way of his or her user contributions page. It entails an evidenced distinctive editing pattern in which one user intentionally follows another editor around wikipedia for purposes that are not constructive to the encyclopedia's content or conducive to its collaborative environment. It occurs when one editor continuously and repeatedly follows another editor between multiple unrelated articles over an extended period of time and a wide variety of unrelated subjects for the purpose of making excessive "followup" changes to the original editor's work - often for the purpose of harassment, disruption, or deconstructing the stalked editor's work for reasons that are not in compliance with Wikipedia policies or guidelines.
Why it's a problem - Wiki-stalking is an abuse of the user contributions function on wikipedia. This is a tool that otherwise serves valuable purposes in combatting vandalism and problematic users, but like any tool it can be abused when used in excess or with malicious intent. Stalking is problematic because it exhibits incivility, subjects individual editors to unwarranted harassment, and violates the request that all wikipedians should Wikipedia:Assume good faith about other editors. Often times a stalker conducts himself with the intent of driving another editor away from Wikipedia through a series of harassing and hostile behavior. The most notorious case of wiki-stalking to date involved a user who consciously trailed another well established wikipedian's edits with daily "followup" work conducted to the same articles, most of it minor and unnecessary. [1] Even though the stalker edits were minor, the behavior was deemed to be harassing because it was done intentionally to harass the victimized editor. The case was settled by direct intervention from Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales, who permanently blocked the stalker for "making a pest of himself" and disrupting the encyclopedia.
Stalking problems
I reformatted and added to the article to improve its organization. Since the recent Arbcom definition of wiki-stalking is probably the most substantive definition of this term, so I moved it to the top under a "Definition" header. I also reorganized the subsequent descriptions of stalking both from this page and the material that's from my user page into a general header on Wikipedian viewpoints about stalking to differentiate them from the official Arbcom ruling. I also copyedited the article in general to give it a better flow and add clarifications. Rangerdude 18:39, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
The guideline tag probably isn't appropriate for use yet since this has not been generally noticed nor has it been accepted by the community as a guideline. (when people quote it on RFA, RFC, and RFAr then you know the community has noticed it, for the moment it's probably best just to keep the tag off. Jtkiefer T | @ | C ----- 07:54, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
If it will help even things out I will bring a charge of wikistalking against user:Rangerude. ;) - Willmcw 22:56, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
Greetings - I added a proposal tag to this guideline for the purpose of aiding in its development and to gather community assistance and input on its contents. For wikipedians who are unfamiliar or unaware with this article or its subject matter, it was created recently for the purpose of reflecting two recent Wikipedia dispute resolution precedents in which the Arbcom and Jimbo Wales determined that certain harassing forms of wiki-stalking are bannable disruptions carrying substantial penalties for abuse. The aim of this article is accordingly to explain and clarify the concept of wiki-stalking in light of these decisions. New contributers should take a moment to review these precedents, which are described and linked to here. Suggestions pertaining to this article's proposal tag and recommended changes should be discussed in the area located below this header, as should questions or comments regarding clarification and formatting. Thank you for your input! Rangerdude 21:07, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Having been seriously harrassed by a user who accused me of cyberstalking him because I used his contribs to check his edits given the extreme POV nature of his edits (eg sticking paternity rights all over the opening paragraph of abortion). I think the page in it's present form is wide open to abuse by people who have good reasons not to want their edits scrutinised, eg POV warriors etc. Not enough attention is given to this and I fear it will be another tool whereby bad users can harrass good ones, SqueakBox 23:47, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
Is there any way of figuring out the status of that account BTW? It is under a permanent block without an arbcom decision?-- Silverback 23:53, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
Two cases, one by arbcom and one by Jimbo Wales. That should say something. The manhours of work this policy will generate will be massive. many editors tend to stick to a set of articles defined by their watchlist, which means overlap with other editors must occur. Then if a new article is linked to an existing article, many editors from the old article will move to the new one. Cries of "stalking" will be heard throughout the land. From a purely objective view, it will appear to be true. one editor started editing an article, and suddenly a number people he knows are editing it too. Sorting out the editor histories will be a pure effort of manual labor. There will be no other way to figure out any charge of "stalking". You can't just look at edit timestamps in contribution histories and compare, you've got to determine a pattern of edit-response, edit-response. You then have to determine that it isn't really bad edit-response, bad edit-response. And it comes down to a subjective interpretation. It will be extremely easy to accuse someone of wiki-stalking, the number of hours that people will have to put into determining it to be true or false will be huge. I keep hearing that arbcom is behind on its cases; this will make it worse. Even worse, the accusation is as difficult to disprove as it is to prove, which means that RFC's charging editors with "wiki-stalking" will be an excellent way to game the system, make an accusation that is impossible to disprove in any objective way, and get a bunch of allies to swamp the certification/endorsement section with signatures. Any policy that encourages cliquish behaviour and even rewards it is seriously asking for wikipedia trouble. Unless someone can convince me these issues are invalid, I strongly oppose this idea. FuelWagon 23:59, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I suspect dropping the whole policy idea is the best way to deal with cyberstalking. The whole watchlist system and open contribs is to some people a licence for others others to stalk them, while for others these are a sign of our openness, and should not be abandoned in the name of cyberstalking. Did I mention the above mentioned stalking accuser in my example was using a sockpuppet, and therefore did not want any scrutiny of his acts, for this reason particularly. Do we want people to be able to hide what they are doing by demanding others don't get involved in the articles they are editing ("you can't edit this article, Englishperson, its about the States, and this is the proof that you are stalking me"). I fear this policy in anything like its current form will, if enacted, lead to disaster. There are other ways to stop negative cyberstalking than this one, hence the 2 successful arbcome cases already, which to me indicate we don't need a policy page on this. I can well imagine 9 out of 10 cases brought under this policy being false claims, esp as most genuine cyberstalkers break the rules in some other way, whereas the bad faith editor who has nothing to pin on a good faith editor will probably use this to latch onto, SqueakBox 02:17, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
Given what you say I have started to edit the page, SqueakBox 04:37, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
Edits I just made and their purposes:
1. I added links to specific Wikipedia policies that may apply under the "good" stalking section (e.g. Vandalism, NPOV) and sentence encouraging editors to familiarize themselves with these if they are following for that reason. The purpose of this is to augment and clarify the previous sentence "it is a good idea to have a justification for such activity."
2. I removed the phrase "POV pushing" from "bad stalking" section and replaced it with a reference to violations of "Wikipedia policies and guidelines." This includes the NPOV policy, which I believe to be the object here. My concern is that while WP:NPOV is spelled out as a policy, the term "POV pushing" is not and is subjectively applied. It concerns me that the addition of this term may have been to create a loophole by which an otherwise discouraged type of stalking could continue so long as the stalker simply declares "But you're a POV pusher" in his/her own judgment. A loophole of this type is very dangerous because it provides an easy out for otherwise abusive stalkers while in reality doing very little to enforce the real POV policy at WP:NPOV.
3. I restored another editor's deletion of disruption and deconstruction of work for reasons other than WP policies and guidelines as potential types of wikistalking. The Wales precedent explicitly named disruption as a type of stalking. Deconstruction is self evident and applies to the type of stalking in which a stalker goes through and reverts or deletes his subject's edits for reasons other than those permitted by WP policies and guidelines. Rangerdude 18:17, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
This text, particularly the part about "dismantling edits", goes way beyond the precedents set by the ArbCom and Wales. They both talk "wikistalking" as following an editor with an intent to harass, not with an intent to "dismantle the edits". There is nothing wrong with dismantling the edits of another editor. If the problem is not obeying other policies and guidelines then we don't need to repeat them here. Wikistalking, plain and simple, is following an in order to editor to harass them.
So, the proposal talks about the difference between good stalking and bad stalking. The proposal says it's ok to follow someone around and fix their bad edits. That's good stalking. This means that what's left is bad stalking. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that mean that the proposal is trying to make a policy that says it is against policy to follow someone around and break policy? The more I think about this, given the can of worms this "stalking" policy would open, I am more and more of the mind that existing policy should handle the problem editor. And problematic edge-cases should be left to arbcom and jimbo to make a command decision. FuelWagon 19:58, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Since there continues to be confusion over this matter with some editors, please see Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines
Thanks. Rangerdude 20:11, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
The "Precedents" section had a lot of POV interpretation so I have tried to make it NPOV by simply quoting the applicable decisions. The final guideline, if approved, probably should only footnote the precedents. Their place here is perhaps best considered as an aid to guideline-making. - Willmcw 23:03, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
Will - Please address the following issues with your proposed rewrite.
Please address these concerns and please conduct yourself in a manner that is more conducive to Wikipedia's consensus policy. Rangerdude 07:55, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
Please conduct yourself in a more civil manner too. That would really be appreciated.
As for the pov, there's a lot!
"Deemed inherently abusive"? Cite please. They've never deemed any such thing. What they actually deemed is in the original text.
We need to mention that these editors were also engaged in other trolling or unhelpful behaviors.
"Against the stalker"? So now we're calling them stalkers? Whatever happened to "users" or "editors"?
Notable Aaccording to whom?
He was banned for a variety of offenses.
Wales decision said much more than that. By cherry picking quotes a false impression of the case is being presented.
Wales himself says all of this in a much simpler, clearer, and more authoritative manner.
The cases were not similar at all. Who says they were similar?
What's the idea of all the easter egg wikilinks? He was penalized fora variety of offenses.
If we quote them here, why don't we just quote them all the way along? These are "precedents", not "interpretations".
In sum, there are so many problems with the interpretation text that it's just easier, and better, to simply list the actual words of the authorities, rather than Rangerdude's spin on them. Also, I agree that once (if) this is adopted then we should reduce the precednets down to links. Until then it is helpful to see the actual texts in order for the Wikipedia community to evaluate the material for themselves. - Willmcw 08:20, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
1.You complain ""Deemed inherently abusive"? Cite please." My citation is Jimbo Wales' ruling, which stated of TRT's behavior of following RickK constituted "disrupting wikipedia to illustrate a point." [3]
2. You object to "and have resulted in penalties against the editor engaged in stalking." This is a simple matter of fact, Will, not a POV. The stalking behavior of both users were specifically identified in the bannings and was a primary offense in both. Skyring was banned "for wiki-stalking and acting in bad faith towards other contributors" and TRT was banned for "Going around pestering RickK pointlessly and writing inane messages to the mailing list."
3. You assert that quoting the passage from Wales on TRT's stalking is "cherry-picking" and assert that "Wales decision said much more than that." The remainder of Wales' decision pertained to the ongoing dispute about the David Gerard block and the arbitration. There is no need to quote all that. If you wish to add that Wales also cited TRT for "writing inane messages to the mailing list" in addition to stalking why not simply add that quote? I would not object, and doing so would not unnecessarily reprint an entire decision that is easily found by a link as you seek.
4. You complain of the case's described similarity "The cases were not similar at all. Who says they were similar?" Now you're just being difficult, Will. Both cases involved a user who was stalking another user's edits, got taken to dispute resolution for that stalking, and got banned for that stalking - that is the similarity.
5. You say of Skyring "What's the idea of all the easter egg wikilinks? He was penalized fora variety of offenses." Actually, no Will. He wasn't. The final decision of the Arbcom against Skyring stated only two reasons for his banning - one specific one (wikistalking) and one about his behavior in general (acting in bad faith). That is not a "variety of offenses." The bad faith stipulation was also quoted in full in the original version. Rangerdude 08:45, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
Question: Should the precedents section of this article summarize the two cases or reprint their rulings in full? Please post applicable comments here. Rangerdude 18:36, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
And if the material is not simply reprinted, how should it be summarized so that bias is not introduced? - Willmcw 19:20, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
According to the following text by Willmcw posted on July 5th regarding the establishment of guideline provisions of the same purpose as this for wikistalking, he wrote:
As these sentiments convey a position of opposition to the establishment of an anti-stalking guideline to reflect the Wales and Arbcom decisions, as is the purpose here, and as Willmcw is actively editing this guideline proposal and, of recent, denying his opposition to it, he is requested to clarify the above comments from last month, indicate if he still believes in them and if so in what way, and state whether he supports or opposes the guideline proposal that is the object of this discussion. Thank you. Rangerdude 19:34, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
After reading over the guideline and this talk page in full, I have come to the conclusion that this is not a good guideline. The points that have been made about how effetively impossible it is to disprove mean that, while the concept may be relevant as further evidence of disruptive behavior, it is not sufficient to be a stand alone, seperate guideline. If the page was rewritten to specify a clearer way it could be disproven, then it might be valuable, but, until and unless that happens, I do not consider it a good guideline. JesseW 07:30, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I believe it's time to put an end to this discussion, as it's not going anywhere. Like the earlier "Wikiblower protection" and "Forbid infobox standardization" proposals, it is something that is vehemently pushed by one editor, and perceived as a patently bad idea by just about everybody else. But since polls are evil, let's make it a bit simpler. Within the next couple of days, I'd like to see three signatures here of users who think this proposal is, in principle and possibly with objections to the current wording, a good idea. If such people cannot be found, this proposal will be summarily rejected. R adiant _>|< 14:01, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
I would like to know why Rangerdude just wrote asking the sockpuppet and dangerous troll Agwiii ( talk · contribs) to contribute. Agwiii is a sockpuppet of RexJudicata ( talk · contribs) who hjas been permanently blocked for making death thjreats. By inviting bad faith users to participate in this page we will end with a bad faith page, SqueakBox 19:33, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
He says he didn't know anything about Agwiii, and I have asked him to remove it, SqueakBox 19:42, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
Cheers, much appreciated, SqueakBox 19:49, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
Following someone's edits and making useful changes to every article they changed is a good thing. I like the fact that I can create seeds, come back after a while and read new and interesting things about subjects I care about. There are already guidelines that say not to making changes that are bad changes or pointless changes. Further, one person's "bad" change is another person's "good" change and throwing around yet another wiki-personal-insult (stalking) doesn't help sort out which POV was most NPOV. (you're stalkimg me. YOU'RE INSULTING ME. stop yelling - that breaks the civility rule. stop wiki-lawyering. that's just your POV.) WAS 4.250 19:38, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Reviewing another editor's contributions only becomes problematic when the ensuing changes are in and of themselves problematic. The examples cited above all involve other violations of Wikiquitte, notably WP:NPA and WP:FAITH. I believe we should enforce those policies rather than creating this one.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with reviewing another editor's contributions and correcting them when a pattern of errors exists. This is done all the time by people who find that a particular contributor:
Some problems such as link spam and bias may seem innocuous when viewed one article at a time but present a much different picture when viewed in the context of an editor's overall contributions.
Having a policy against reviewing another contributor's edits would be a gift to trolls and POV pushers, who would happily take it as a means to amplify their usual chorus of compliants against The WikiManagement. By means of a concrete example, would draw everyone's attention to the matter of User:Wikinerd's contributions and the careful work User:Texture and I have done to review them and remove link spam. Wikinerd, upset by our work, responded with the usual barrage of withering criticism: an RFC, a mailing list post, a request for mediation, &c &c &c. I am absolutely sure that User:Texture and I would have been accused of Wikistalking if we had a policy forbidding it.
The Uninvited Co., Inc. 19:46, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm glad to see this was brought up. I was about to talk about it. In "Following editors who don't have track records of vandalism or other editing in violation of Wikipedia policies and guidelines could be viewed as an inappropriate or disproportionate response to their actions." - it talks about "track records of vandalism..." - this doesn't even attempt to handle rotating IPs or first edits. The two situations mostly likely for a spammer, vandal, or uninitiated user. (The last is wiggle room for Wikinerd since I don't want to label the user.) How would these be handled? - Tεx τ urε 22:38, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Just saw this edit. Just wondering if there's any guideline for when a proposed policy can be marked "rejected". The support for this proposal appears to be limited to the people who proposed it. Everyone else seems to be against it in one form or another. Maybe I'm reading the comments wrong. FuelWagon 22:20, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
· Katefan0 (scribble) 22:29, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
Clearly Uninvited has people in agreement with him/her, SqueakBox 22:44, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
This request is for editors who object to particular parts of this article as it is currently phrased. Please state the sentence or sentences you disagree with in numbered quotations as well as a summary of reasons and what you changes you would prefer for purposes of discussion. I believe that doing so would provide greater clarity as to what further changes, if any, can and should be made to bring this proposal closer to a level of obtaining consensus. Editors are also asked to place their numbered sentences in a subheader (three equal signs) and to sign their comments with 4 tildes. Thanks. Rangerdude 22:55, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
This poll shall last for a week (i.e. until 23:29, 26 August 2005 (UTC)).
TEMPLATE FOR ALTERNATIVE PROPOSALS
{Add sentences, summary, and/or links to revisions here}
(sign with ~~~~)
{Add sentences, summary, and/or links to revisions here}
Description - The revision at the above link is a "bare-bones" version of a proposed wikistalking guideline. It contains only the official definition of wikistalking agreed to by the Arbcom and links to the two wikistalking precedents. I posted this to form the basis of building the guideline from the grounds up in light of stated objections to the current text and interpretations within it on this proposal. Comments and additions to it are welcome by clicking the above link, or may be discussed here. Rangerdude 23:29, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
(sign with ~~~~)
Why do we keep fighitng over the precedents? I thought that several editors had talk about and edited them on the main page. Why does a proposed draft start by overriding that consensus? I don't really see the purpose of a second draft anyway. Let's work on the one, main draft. - Willmcw 00:21, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
I think it is important, indeed vital, that everyone is free to edit this public draft. If anyone wants to work on a private, second, possible alternative draft they can do so within therir user space, SqueakBox 01:57, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
There are several editors with whom I share interests in various topic areas and whose work I am generally interested in a postive way (editors who focus on Canadian politics for instance). I will, from time to time when looking for things to contribute to, check out their user contributions and edit some of the articles they've been editing (or particularly new articles they've begun). I rarely reverse their edits, usuaally I'll do simple copy editing or make the odd correction if I notice an error in factt, and generally I will add information to the articles if I can (most often I just read the article for my own interest). No one has ever complained about my doing this, indeed, from time to time one of these editors will put a message on my talk page asking me to review an article they've written and, from time to time I'll do the same for them. My point is we have to be careful when talking about "Stalking" to make the point that checking "User contributions" can be a tool in collaborative editing amongst those editors who have similar interests - of course the crucial matter is whether or not one is acting in "good faith". Homey 00:43, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Personally I like the general idea of rules aimed at limiting "stalking" type behavior. But it's difficult to define. In this case, I think the definition is actually too restrictive: "The term wikistalking or wiki-stalking describes a pattern of editing behavior in which one contributor intentionally follows and makes changes to the edits of another solely for the purpose of harassment or disruption."
The term "solely" is too limiting. Statutes rarely use such language when attempting to regulate conduct. Rather, it should be sufficient to classify an action as stalking if "one of" its "primary" purposes is harassment or disruption; or, perhaps, even if this is one of its "significant" purposes.
I was wikistalked and harrassed when I first joined wiki slightly more than one month ago. I am still being harrassed by bullies who are trying push their POV. It is important that there be protection from wikistalking, esp. for new users. I fully support the effort here. If there are any votes or if my assistance is needed, please let me know. Thanks!-- Agiantman 05:10, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
(Why is it that I see things differently from so many others? The Republicrats and the Demicans slug it out on teevee sponsored by the DAR and I just fall asleep. I just came back from BAR Camp and I confess, I didn't see the point of 3/4 of the conversation. Maybe I'm just getting old.)
This proposal is focusing on the wrong thing and trying to make an impossible distinction.
I don't care who reads my edits; and if those edits suck, I don't care if the same editor follows me all over the project fixing my boo-boos. At some point, I expect, he'll get tired of cleaning up my mess and contact me directly on my talk page. If not, then may all the gods bless him. I'll just keep on editing sloppy and he can just be the man with the broom behind the elephant.
On the other hand, if my edits don't suck, then I really get hot when other editors screw my work up. If I see it happen, I'm quite likely to notice the offender on his talk page. If he won't stop, I'll drag his butt to whatever forum I think will give me satisfaction soonest.
It's the gray area that gives trouble. I have my opinion, you have yours. Fine. Maybe we work it out on the side, maybe we work it out in talk, maybe we have a little revert war and both go on a few days' block. I think every member should get blocked once in awhile. It's good for the soul, encourages humility, gives you a chance to get up from the screen and shoot some hoops, and shows you're not afraid to stand up for your principles and get your knuckles dusty. Of course, a little goes a long way.
"Stalking", as a pattern of behavior, is the same in wikispace and meatspace; it is always victimization of the weak by the weak. The stalkee is weak, because a strong person cannot be stalked; he knows the ropes and has the means to fight back -- stalking implies the stalkee is running away. The stalker is weak, because a strong person will opt for more effective and honest methods of discrediting or abusing an enemy.
Thus, any discussion always implies a third party, stronger than those involved, who is to step in and halt the behavior. Well, if I'm called upon to be the third party, I really don't need to be given a special definition of stalking, or try to figure out whether the questionable behavior fits yet another technical box. I just ask: Is the action in policy? If the accused "stalker" is making good edits politely, then that's fine. If not, then I don't need to label that party; his edits (or edit summaries) suck, that's all; and I'll revert them. Soon, the stalker will be the stalkee; and perhaps yet another party will wonder if my edits are any good. And that's the way it should be.
We should make a special effort to welcome newcomers, and not with a big ugly boilerplate box. We should watch for new, well-intentioned editors, assume good faith, and help them adjust to the way we do things around here. When some questionable member starts following the noo guy around with stupid reverts or other pettifogging edits, we should not only revert those specifically to the noo guy; we should take the time to explain, personally, to the noo guy directly; that nothing is ever really lost around here, that we're watching the watcher; and that all will be well.
I don't disagree that stalking is a problem -- it certainly is! But all stalking is also another kind of problem -- bad editing, personal attack, or both. It's much easier to define and identify these actions, and censure them, than to define and identify yet another boundary of acceptable action.
So: First, identify bad action; then take counteraction. If somewhere along the way you want to guess at the actor's intent and label it, fine -- but don't start on those shifting sands, and don't waste too much effort in such amusement.
And don't let anyone bully you! — Xiong 熊 talk * 10:38, 2005 August 20 (UTC)
I added a real life example for following vs. stalking. I'm really depressed about a something personal and I don't know if it came out right. Can someone provide another example? I won't edit again for a while ChoobWriter 17:17, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Your real life example felt like it was straying from the point too much. given the controversial nature of the page it seems especially important not to do so, SqueakBox 17:22, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
The case of Skyring and jtdirl is interesting. Skyring has explained his behaviour several times, most recently here. A look through his contributions at the relevant times bears this out. He made a large number of good edits on various articles (many sourced from Recent Changes) before checking on user:jtdirl, whose raw material is error-ridden and often overly prolix, notably in his trying to cram too many concepts into a single sentence. All edits on jtdirl's material were good ones, and many corrected some major errors.
However, there is something in jtdirl's psychology that makes it hard, if not impossible, for him to admit to any errors. His typical response to correction is reversion followed by disputation and he exists at the centre of an ongoing series of lame edit wars. He is reminiscent of the Soup Nazi except that his soup isn't that good; most of his edits are based around templates or repeating the same information across various articles and then linking it. He could best be described as anal-obsessive with a touch of paranoia. Wiki-follow him for a while and you'll see this in operation. -- Halfinch 19:48, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
He is now regarded as a sockpuppet of banned Wikistalker
User:Skyring.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
20:13, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I guess people will have to trace Halfinch and if it turns out to be Skyring, under the ArbComm ruling, restart his one year ban from 20 August 2005.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
22:59, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Remember that message at the bottom of the edit box? If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it.
If one user follows another and their edits do not diminish the quality of Wikipedia or extend a problem further or intentionally create more disputes with the user being followed [such as by indiscriminant reversion of their changes], then on what basis are the edits a problem? A person followed may be annoyed by minor changes to their work which might not seem to be either an improvement or a diminishment, but this does not mean they should be considered an abuse.
If a user is making abusive or useless edits, then it is primarily the quality of Wikipedia that they are hurting, and the quality of all other contributions -- not just that of the person who happened to be the most recent editor to the article. The following is just a possible modus operandi of the kind of abuse that should already be in violation of other policies, and need not be a specific breach of policy just by itself -- although it is true that following may exacerbate a situation, if a dispute has already arisen between a user and a follower.
I think these may be circumstances which can only really be dealt with fairly on a case-by-case basis, and the primary offense is the abuse, and ruining of the other user's work if that is what is happening, not the actual following. -- Mysidia ( talk) 01:52, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Though many changes made in this revision are good, a couple have some problems and take the guideline down a path that I do not believe it should go.
1. The opening paragraph added to viewpoints on stalking should be substantially revised to make it more neutral and informative or removed entirely - "The presence of the "User Contributions" page for each user was, at the time of its introduction, unique to Wikipedia and not used by other wikis then extant. Together with the watchlist feature, it set the stage for what has become the world's largest wiki. The easy ability of any user to review the contributions of any other user was among the defining features of the project, making it distinct from other wikis." The paragraph appears to be simply one editor's POV on the virtues of the user contributions page and promoting it as the defining essence of wikipedia. I don't see what place this has in an article on wikistalking.
2. The sentence "even though the practice of monitoring user contributions has proven vital in maintaining a quality encyclopedia" is problematic for similar reasons. It's one thing to tell editors that they can follow a user contribution page when they aren't doing it for harassment, it's an entirely different thing to be an advertisement to promote the following of user contributions. We should inform editors that they can indeed use the user contributions feature, but we shouldn't be running around promoting it as if it were some end-all "defining" and "vital" tool when that's just the opinion of an editor who likes it as a tool.
3. The change of describing the user contributions feature as a "tool that otherwise serves valuable purposes" to "a tool that most often serves valuable purposes" again seems to introduce a strong POV favoring the user contributions feature. A more neutral wording may be in order that neither promotes nor discourages its value, e.g. "a tool that can serve valuable purposes"
4. A strong interpretive sentence was added to the "precedents" section, changing it from a neutral "Wiki-stalking has been a part of at least two Arbitration Committee proceedings" to "Wiki-stalking has been mentioned in at least two Arbitration Committee proceedings. The degree to which this establishes any meaningful precedent is disputed, because both cases had many non-stalking elements." It was urged at the time that this section's description was changed to quoting the precedents directly that doing so would allow the reader to come to this judgment about what the cases entailed him or herself. UninvitedCo's addition indirectly takes a position with phrases such as "many non-stalking elements," which are debatable contentions in themselves. This is particularly the case for the Skyring decision in which the Arbcom was explicit in stating its remedy that wikistalking, which the Arbcom also defined, was the main offense: "Skyring banned for wikistalking." [11] A more neutral way of approaching this would probably be to restore the previous version that makes no attempt at interpretation if this is the way we're going to approach the precedents section. Otherwise the stated purpose of quoting the cases in full rather than simply summarizing is defeated. Rangerdude 04:19, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
The opening paragraph is history. While there may be a variety of points of view on role of User Contributions and Watchlist in the Wiki today, the historical role is clear. These features were developed for Wikipedia as extensions to the Usemod wiki originally in use here, and were retained when Usemod was replaced by the MediaWiki software now in use.
I believe that most Wikipedians would agree that "the practice of monitoring user contributions has proven vital in maintaining a quality encyclopedia" and believe that the statement belongs here to better frame the limits of use of user contributions in a reasonable way. I also believe that most Wikipedians believe that User Contributions is "a tool that most often serves valuable purposes." If we're going to have a wikistalking policy, we should make it clear that the extensive legitimate use of these features is not its target.
Regarding the precedents, the cases are quoted selectively, which is why I added the interpretive note. I read through the cases and neither of them, read in its entireity with all evidence and opinions, is chiefly about stalking. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 17:25, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
My chief concern here, which I started to bring up with RangerDude, is that someone might try to change the definition of "stalking" so that it includes legitimate attempts by sysops and others to prevent systematic damage to this project.
Particularly, they might get people to say "stalking" as a synonym for "reviewing my contribs".
This already happened with "POV" being used as synonym for "bias" or "biased" - which is really harmful and disruptive to the project. Because people automatically assume that "POV" is the opposite of NPOV and hence "obviously bad for articles". The result is that people often completely ignore Jimbo's idea that a balanced, neutral article SHOULD INCLUDE MULTIPLE POINTS OF VIEW.
I beg you all to review Wikipedia:POV and see that "POV" is not bad. The controversial subjects must include multiple POV's. So please stop using "POV" to label sections of text you want left out, deleted or censored. Say "biased" instead, and try to make suggestions on how we can correct bias by attribuiting POV to its advocate.
Likewise, I beg you not to create yet another buzzword that makes it harder for Admins to identify patterns of disruption. Please do not let "stalking" get redefined so that systematically correcting another contributor's edits becomes grounds for RFC'ing or RFArb'ing someone.
This is worse than feeding trolls. It's growing the food for them!! Uncle Ed 02:19, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
I've already seen people successfully
In light of the mounting criticism for a guideline that, at first sight, seems perfectly rational, I propose we merge this page with Wikipedia:Harassment to set the proper tone. — Ambush Commander( Talk) 02:28, August 22, 2005 (UTC)