{{
spoiler-blank|This discussion uses some examples of
spoilers Explicit examples/sections should be labelled below.}}
Some indirect references might be unlabelled.
This claim holds that spoiler tags are a violation of Wikipedia's policy of "Neutral point of view", or "NPOV". This claim is held on the grounds that they are specifically geared to the purpose of suggesting to readers that they may not wish to read this information, a non-impartial judgement made on the basis of an editors' own interpretations and assumptions. The spoiler warning (in fact created to serve that very purpose and called just that: a warning) is, by its very nature, an example of an editor inserting their opinions into an article to influence readers' decisions to read or not read specific information. A warning can only exist if someone has passed their judgement upon it and then creates a notice based on that judgement. In this case, that is what is taking place with spoiler warnings, and that personal judgement of editors is being passed on to the readers.
NPOV was ipmlemented for the specific purpose of keeping editors' personal opinions out of articles, and not allowing these opinions to reach readers to the effect of influencing what information they absorbed or how they perceived it as they absorbed it. An aspect of this policy is known as " Let the facts speak for themselves". The detailed plot information within an article will identify itself as such on the basis of what it is offering. It need not be specifically targeted with a banner that strives to suggest to readers that the information may be inappropriate for them to view.
Most, if not all, spoilers can easily be agreed on by most editors and readers. If not, then visit the issue on an article by article basis.
What would be a point of view is how that spoiler might affect someone's enjoyment of the text. If we commented on the tags, like saying "this is a class 10 spoiler!" or "You won't laugh as much at this scene", that would be point of view. There are some fictional works where, based on by past or current experience with similar work, I can spoil myself and still enjoy it. But other stuff can really effect the enjoyment of a work of fiction when you know something prematurely. Spoiler warnings don't comment on the why and how, they only comment that it is a spoiler. I do not see the labeling of spoilers as a POV.
We are labeling information, just as we label protagonists and antagonists, major themes, or any other element. Some readers might use these labels for navigation, some might not.
People might get some feedback from the editor based on how an editor writes or formats an article, such as what parts of the topic the editor chooses to focus on. In any case, the effect spoiler tags have, in my experience and others, is as insignificant as how something is formatted. -- Ned Scott 13:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
There is no POV issue inherrant to the spoiler tag. What point of view is advanced by saying that the following information gives away plot or ending details? The point of view that the ending to the Sixth Sense was not an important ending detail? Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Useful things are only part of our objective in so far as they directly contribute to the objective of being an encyclopedia. As said many times, useful things are not inherently placed in an encyclopedia. This includes phone books, and any number of things that might be based on POV. Plenty of useful things out there. Not all of them conform to the principles of an encyclopedia, though, which is our only basis for what goes here. Ryu Kaze 20:05, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I thought of a good example of how something is borderline POV that editors include in many articles: genre. I've seen debates over what genres people think a TV show falls under, and worse. Are those labels in the same boat as spoiler tags in that sense? -- Ned Scott 22:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
POV IS inherent in the spoiler tag. Why do some plots get spoiler warnings but not others? Judgments are made to determine this case by case. Travislangley 21:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I'd like to remind everyone again that it's neutral point of view, not no point of view. Almost everything has a point of view, but it's about how it's neutral or not. If spoiler tags are not neutral, in what context are they not neutral? -- Ned Scott 21:58, 31 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I want to make an argument that I'm not seeing above, although perhaps I'm missing it. I think spoiler tags are POV not so much in their specific application to a portion of a media article, but in their application to media articles in general, as opposed to other articles. I think this represents a general cultural bias on behalf of the editors.
We do not, for example, have a spoiler tag on evolution articles warning that reading said article might shatter one's narrow religious beliefs, or on religious articles warning that reading them might spoil one's narrow materialism. Why not? Is it more important to protect a movie-goers comic enjoyment than it is to protect someone's entire worldview? Perhaps these are apples and oranges, but I can imagine crossover cases. For example, should the article on Job have a spoiler warning so the reader does not prematurely learn that Job gets his family back (in the edited version).... Ethan Mitchell 02:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC) reply
;-)
--
Swift
23:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
reply
I'm sorry, I'm not making myself clear. What I am looking for is some general reason why we should use spoilers in case X (certain kinds of fiction) and not in case Y (everything else). All I can find, and all I am hearing in this discussion, is a hodgepodge of specific rules which I am not even clear are spelled out anywhere: we don't use spoilers when about purportedly factual articles; we don't use spoilers when experiencing the message of God; etc.; and in the remaining cases, we do use spoilers when we feel that audience enjoyment of something might be compromised by learning plot details.
The very absence of some general policy seems to me extraordinarily precious. If we are so concerned about our readers having enjoyable experiences, why aren't we interpreting that point more broadly? And if we are equally concerned about all this side constraints--factuality and God and who knows what--then what is the unifying proposition behind these constraints? If I say that Jack and the Beanstalk shouldn't have a spoiler warning, because it involves legumes, where is the general line of argument to shoot me down?
What I'm contending is that the unifying principle here is one of cultural norms, and unless someone suggests something else, I have to continue thinking that. Ethan Mitchell 00:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC) reply
As a consequence of the previous claim, this claim holds that spoiler tags are a violation of Wikipedia's policy of "Wikipedia is not censored". This claim is held on the grounds that — " censorship" being defined as "the act or practice of censoring", this latter word itself defined as "to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable" — spoiler tags are a case of the unstandardized regulation of information with regards to the presentation of its content as appropriate or inappropriate to some.
While Wikipedia certainly doesn't include all information, policies such as "Wikipedia is not censored" or "NPOV" are designed to prevent the inclusion of an editors' own assumptions and judgements concerning information that has already met the requirements for inclusion here, most notably verifiability and relevance with regards to the subject. In other words, if information has been found to merit inclusion in the article, then it is simply relevant information that is then supposed to be presented to the readers as impartially as any other information, whether this information be spoilers or not. It is to be treated as any other information would be and offered to the readers as such.
As can be seen by clicking on the encyclopedia-wide disclaimer at the bottom of any Wikipedia page, there is already a notice to readers that any and all sections of any and all pages may contain detailed plot information. This serves as a universal notice that identifies all information within this encyclopedia, and, thus, it is an impartial and standardized regulation. Spoiler tags, however, target specific information selected by an editor on the basis of their own judgement of what they feel may be seen as inappropriate by some.
Also, unlike simple headers (such as "Development" or "Gameplay"), spoiler tags are not designed to the function of making information more accessible to the reader by grouping it into coherent sets that flow from one to another. They, in fact, aim to suggest readers not look at specific information. The spoiler tags are designed to serve as a warning, a deterrent, a suggestion of what is one's best interest. For that matter, the word itself carries a negative connotation. "Spoilers" is so-called due to the idea that knowing plot details before viewing a work will spoil/ruin the later experience of viewing that work — this, in itself, being a judgement based on editors' assumptions.
Wikipedia's policies already inform readers that there are things on Wikipedia that some may find inappropriate. This includes, but may not be limited to, images of pornography, abuse and torture of humans, genocide, prostitutes, female genitalia, exotic dancers and also artwork of children or individuals with child-like appearances in sexual situations or imagery alluding to sexual situations. In fact, several such images and even entire articles have been targeted for censorship of various kinds in the past (examples: opposition to a pornographic image, attempt to have the Lolicon page deleted, creation of a censored version of the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse page, creation of a censored version of the Clitoris page), only to be protected on the grounds that Wikipedia is not censored, regardless of concerns over what is appropriate or inappropriate to some. In fact, one particular warning tag (much like the spoiler tag being discussed here) attempting to warn people about images of torture was also denied.
Just to get things started for the pro-spoiler-tag side:
The censorship accusation would only hold water if people used the warning itself as a reason not to read information, rather than their own decision to read or not to read. If a reader wishes to read only some information and not other, that is their right as a reader. Giving readers that option makes Wikipedia more useful. People know what we mean when we say "spoiler warning", they're not going to freak out over some misunderstanding and think the text is somehow dangerous. And spoilers, unlike pictures of aborted babies and dead puppies, aren't "offensive" or political or anything like that, so the spoilers themselves and any warnings about them are in a totally different league than what we think of as censorship. If the tags were an attempt to influence the reader, then maybe, but informing the reader to allow them to make their own choice is different than trying to influence them. -- Ned Scott 13:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Spoiler tags are not a violation of our not-censored policy. They are a violation of our no-disclaimer-templates policy (or guideline), but they are a specific exception designed to increase the value of the encyclopedia. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Well, that's the issue being discussed. I do, because it involves the insertion of a readers' POV to dissuade people from learning specific info. That, and it's something that doesn't actually aid our goal (and is supposed to be removed on those grounds alone, mustless any others). As far as I can see, the concept is in no way compatible with Wikipedia's policies (based in encyclopedic principle), and it isn't even compatible with one of its fellow guidelines for that matter (no disclaimer templates).
But you already know that, so I'll try to stop this particular line of discussion here so we don't end up going in circles. Ryu Kaze 18:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
To suppress, in the context of censorship, would not mean "to press down" some text because of a line-feed; suppress would mean " to keep from public knowledge: as a : to keep secret b : to stop or prohibit the publication or revelation of". Wikipedia censorship thus includes removing information that allready exists in the server (either by deleting it on the Wikimedia servers, or some intermediary party removing it from their physical distribution, or by firewall blocking) or stopping/disuaiding submission of information from entering the wikimedia servers (by blocking, carried out by wikimedia or by intermediaries, or by threathening the editors). In the case of porn or democracy information, there exists intermediary parties like parents, ISPs, employers or governments who try to block content for the users on their network, or who would like the content removed from the servers. If we had a tag or template for such content, it could provide technical assistance for these would-be censors, and in my opinion that might be one reason why the community does not want such templates. It might help real censorship. In the case of spoilers, however, I have seen no examples of a party that would block spoilers in the network, even if I've asked for such examples. -- GunnarRene 22:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
The idea that information is being suppressed by the inclusion of spoiler tags is incorrect. If anything, the opposite is true. We are providing more information to the reader. We are letting them know that what follows is either not available through primary sources (in the case of promotional or solicitation info from the publisher/producer/whatever) or may be something that the author/director/whatever used as a piece of mystery or intrigue. There's a big difference, say when summarizing an Agatha Christie novel, between saying it takes place in the English countryside and revealing that the butler did it. There's a big difference in a comic book article between information available from the comics themselves and what is provided in solicitations. We are merely acknowledging that difference. CovenantD 02:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Re: torture images in original argument: this shows a dispute tag, which alerts about a content dispute, stating that it's claimed to be wrong to include the content in Wikipedia and that it should be removed. Not quite analogous. Just thought I'd mention Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy is slightly more alike, since it also had people trying to move the images down on the page, but again, the strongest opposers wanted to remove the images completely. (Which is not suggested for spoiler content, only tags/warnings/templates) -- GunnarRene 11:26, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply
This claim holds that spoiler tags are an unprofessional and unencyclopedic tool, that — while, perhaps, useful to those who would rather not see spoilers — has no place in Wikipedia. Wikipedia is designed with the intention of being a comprehensive body of information on many subjects, including works of fiction. By the very definition of the word " encyclopedia" (appearing in the subtitle of Wikipedia, and visibile in two places on every single page of the encyclopedia), readers are informed of what to expect from this encyclopedia. In addition, the site's universal content notice (accessible from the bottom of every page of Wikipedia) and Wikipedia's policies serve also to make this known.
Those who do not wish to view comprehensive information, thus, should be aware already that by reading this encyclopedia, they may be viewing detailed plot information. Moreover, it is Wikipedia's very foundation to serve as a neutral, comprehensive body of information that puts principles of encyclopedic conduct before any thoughts of courtesies to readers when they do not directly aid the encyclopedia's mission. The encyclopedia's very first policy states "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Its goals go no further, and material that does not fit this goal must be moved to another Wikimedia project or removed altogether". Simply being considered useful by some is not grounds for a tool's inclusion in Wikipedia, especially if that tool calls for certain allowances concerning foundational policies, in this case, "NPOV" and "Wikipedia is not censored".
Additionally, the image of Wikipedia as a professional, uncensored and unbiased encyclopedia is tarnished by such exemptions to policy. Furthermore, these exemptions serve to set a precedent which may be cited in the future by others who wish to secure the inclusion of additional forms of censorship, as was attempted during the above-mentioned creation of a censored version of the Clitoris page with regards to the creation of a censored version of the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse page. Such exemptions can and will lead to further demands for exemptions. Once a double-standard has been established, it need only be consistently reiterated and looked to as the example for it to become the example of standard conduct.
A single exemption is as a thousand. The double-standard need only exist for the recognition of those policies being avoided to already be null and void. The standard has already been abandoned and an encyclopedia's image as a professional, uncensored and unbiased body of comprehensive knowledge is stained. A body of text either is an encyclopedia or it is not. There are certain principles that it must conform to in order to be one. Given that Wikipedia's mission is to be an encyclopedia, it must recognize the principles reflected in its policies in order to assert that it is one. Wikipedia's image is a direct reflection of the reality of its governance and the practices thereof. If there are exemptions and double-standards being allowed, they will not be invisible.
While there are certain professional bodies that do allow the inclusion of spoiler warnings, such as the New York Times, these professional bodies are not encyclopedias. Being professional in the context of journalism is sometimes significantly different from being professional in the context of encyclopedic behavior. For one, the journalism approach calls for the analyzation of information, and the presentation of conclusions drawn from that study. The encyclopedic approach, as used here on Wikipedia, calls for the presentation of raw data for the purpose of allowing others to analyze and draw their conclusions. In other words, an encyclopedia is something that one might reference if they were writing a newspaper article. As such, an encyclopedia cannot to be held to the standard of such a drastically different professional body.
However, where newspapers offer critical evaluations of art and commentary upon events, they are more similar in their approach to the encyclopedic one. Here, being professional in the context of criticism is similar to being professional in the context of encyclopedic behavior. Critics professionally analyse, evaluate and then present conclusions, as can be seen in this spoiler warning free review of Superman Returns by Philip French in The Observer. This piece discusses the film in a critical manner and analyses specific plot points and images for that evaluation, somewhat similar to the approach an encyclopedia takes. Also, critcal reviews are something editors to Wikipedia use as a reference when writing articles. As such, an encyclopedia may be held to the standard of such a professional body in certain situations. In general, however, journalism and encyclopedias take an entirely different approach.
For examples of the encyclopedic standard, we can look only to the principles of the concept at work, and the illustrations of those principles as displayed by Wikipedia's contemporaries. Such bodies as Encyclopedia Britannica, World Book Encyclopedia, Compton's Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia Americana, which do not include spoiler warnings in their articles about fictional works. While one might argue that paper encyclopedias cannot be considered as among the fraternity of an electronic encyclopedia, nowhere in Wikipedia's policies is such an ideal reflected. While Wikipedia is not paper, this has no bearing on the objective Wikipedia is striving for, nor the principles associated with reaching that goal. All Wikipedia's status as a paper encyclopedia alters are its limitations in achieving — or exceeding — the quality of its contemporaries. By virtue of its electronic nature, a number of additional tools are present to allow Wikipedia to more easily meet the aspects of its goal related to being comprehensive and rendering information easily accessible.
If, however, we were to look only to the electronic versions of Wikipedia's above-mentioned contemporaries, we would still find that these also do not include spoiler warnings in their articles about works of fiction. While some might argue that this is also not a valid indication of what Wikipedia should be striving for given that these other encyclopedias do not include often up-to-date information on in-progress television programs or upcoming films and books, to that one has to ask: if we are not looking to the princicples of making an encyclopedia, Wikipedia's own policies which reflect these principles (and which present themselves as the standard by which we are to follow) and Wikipedia's contemporaries, then where would we be looking, given that Wikipedia is not attempting to redefine the word "encyclopedia"? By virtue of its own policies and goal, Wikipedia identifies that it is attempting to be exactly what its goal and first policy says: an encyclopedia, and one that fits the previously established criterion of what that word entails.
Additionally, the use of a begin-spoiler and end-spoiler template approach to articles imposes the notion that spoilers must be contained "inside the box". This can lead to organization and layout issues, or incidents of "spoiler tag spaghetti", such as this one.
Given all this, Wikipedia's professional image can only be tarnished by the presence of spoiler tags, a tool popularized by usenet and fansites, not professional encyclopedias, with such practices have been strongly opposed by Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales. Again returning to the earlier point concerning tools that might be useful to some, Wikipedia's first policy states "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Its goals go no further, and material that does not fit this goal must be moved to another Wikimedia project or removed altogether". Given that spoiler tags offer no actual boon to Wikipedia's purpose of being an encyclopedia, they have no actual place here, useful to some or not. Also, given their dubious nature where Wikipedia's policies and encyclopedic foundations are concerned, they are more likely than not a tool counterproductive to its purpose.
I've been waiting to actually make comments, but I can't really let that last edit go about the whole Superman newspaper review. The damn review didn't have a spoiler, thus there wouldn't be a spoiler warning. Who cares if Usenet or fansites also use spoiler warnings, they've used a hell of a lot of stuff that is now standardized, (like custom signatures, which many of the anti-spoiler editors use, or terms like 'spam messages'). The concept of spoilers and even the word itself pre-dates the web, the only reason we see it a lot in the web is before people talked about movies and such instead of typing it out. Encyclopedias don't talk about fiction in this depth, that in itself is 'un-encyclopedic' by this definition, but we accept those articles as a new standard that Wikipedia is creating.
Just because no one has done it on such a large scale only means that we're the first. (first only in that it's a single entity, where as other uses have been scattered) A lot of people I don't want to associate with out there use terms and words that I use, I don't stop using those words because someone else I don't like uses them. Ask a random reader if they thought a spoiler tag was out of place on a wiki article (although I would agree with you that the tags on the classic fiction is a bit dumb, but I'll address that later). You want to second guess how readers perceive the internet, then go ahead, but the argument is completely unfounded and without any proof. Newspapers and paper encyclopedias are used to doing the things they've done for years, and are a hell of a lot less likely to change and grow, unlike Wikipedia. Just because fansites use them too, give me a break. I know people who, last year, thought things like internet chatting and instant messaging were just kids stuff, and now use those thing. This is an issue of POV that we can't predict, not what the view is now, or how it will be in the future. If anyone has actual proof or real feedback about how spoiler tags affect a readers view on wikipedia, then please, show me. -- Ned Scott 13:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Spoiler tags are a dramatic violation of our encyclopedic tone, and as such their use should be constrianed to places where the value of the ending to the plot at large overweighs our desire to be completist with information. Examples - M. Night Shalaman movies. Most other tags should go.
Hipocrite -
«Talk»
16:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
{{
spoiler-blank|Plot details from Superman Returns follow}}
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I've been waiting to actually make comments, but I can't really let that last edit go about the whole Superman newspaper review. The damn review didn't have a spoiler
I'm kind of floored that this doesn't end the debate. Of course spoiler tags are unprofessional. They're using a neologism to flag the fact that encyclopedia articles on a topic reveal information about that topic. It's completely absurd - we ought not be using a neologism like that, first of all, and we ought assume that people coming to Wikipedia are looking for information. This is not a fansite, we ought not engage in such blatant fanservice. Phil Sandifer 04:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC) reply
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location (
link) For the exampe of mainstream media using the word spoiler and giving a spoiler warning:
[3]. --
Ned Scott
05:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replyGiven that we are building an encyclopedia which is to be read, and given this incarnation of the Wikipedia exists on the internet, it has been argued that readers will expect spoiler warnings, given their usage in other internet resources. It has also been argued that, given Wikipedia's high profile in google searches, readers arriving at a page may not be aware of the purpose or nature of Wikipedia articles. It is felt by supporters of this argument that it is reasonable to assume that every unique article may be the first point of contact for a reader, and we should thus include spoiler warnings where appropriate on that basis.
I've created this section in an effort to address concerns below. I'm not wholly convinced by the argument, but I think there is merit there. It's worth noting that a print version of Wikipedia oughtn't to feel bound by the style guidance of the online Wikipedia. Hiding Talk 22:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
How's this: Talk:Spider-Man 3#SPOILERS? Obviously, people hate spoilers and want to be warned. – Someguy0830 ( Talk | contribs) 04:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Wikipedia isn't made for users, it's made for the readers. As far as encyclopedic goes, well, this isn't exactly a typical encyclopedia. How many print enyclopedias contain have info on
Puff puff pass or
Mr. and Mrs. Smith?
Karwynn
(talk)
21:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
reply
The following are proposed solutions to the issues discussed above, and the results of discussion here, here and here. Please be aware that users may add their name to the support of more than one solution. In such a case, please indicate preference. A simple placement of "(preference)" beside your name will suffice. Remember that this is not a vote, and if you list your name below be sure to indicate your reasons.
Note: additional solutions may be proposed and offered support. Please add new proposals to the bottom of this section.
One possible solution to this issue that has been presented is the notion of spoiler tags' default status being that they are turned off. In other words, someone accessing the encyclopedia would be approaching a default version in which there were no spoiler tags. They would, however, have the option (whether logged in or not) to turn them on.
Another solution suggested is that spoiler templates be deleted altogether.
Keep spoiler tags with options to revise guidelines to see when it is appropriate to use the tag or not.
See also Oppose this process
someone just changed this definition AFTER people had signed. plange 02:45, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
To clarify, this concept can go hand in hand with the idea of the guideline. "No guideline is absolute, and whenever there's a gray area things can be taken to the talk page of that article." vs "guideline trumps all". -- Ned Scott 02:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Spoiler templates were previously listed as a guideline, but it has been proposed that they be downgraded to essay status — a document that expresses the opinions and ideas of some Wikipedians, but that doesn't necessarily reflect Wikipedia's policies or actual consensus — or rejected as a proposal that failed to gain consensus.
Editors may also wish to read WP:PAG#The differences between policies, guidelines, essays, etc. this link added 17:55, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
{{
spoiler-blank|Plot details from Star Wars follow}}
There seem to be several reasons for spoilers. The 3 main ones seem to be:
For simplicity, we'll call these "events".
Each of these events could be split into fiction and non-fiction, and also by media type (book/film/TV series/video game/live performance (includes recorded ones)/etc.).
By this, even such things as sports games and the Olympics apply. So we should consider Wikipedia:Current and future event templates in this discussion, as well.
One issue is that some parts of the world receive the information (in publication/broadcast/etc.) before others. In addition, the "Soap-opera" based events often release solicitation information, or other advertisements.
So given all of this:
There seem to be several reasons for spoilers. The 3 main ones seem to be:
For simplicity, we'll call these "events".
One issue is that some parts of the world receive the information (in publication/broadcast/etc.) before others. In addition, the "Soap-opera" based events often release solicitation information, or other advertisements.
So given all of this:
Oh, are we still voting? Well, I'm still not sure about this proposal. I mean, if we use the example of a video game, I'm not sure that any of the above would be sufficient. You make a distinction between solutions (like: doing such-and-such kills the end boss) and plot details (as in: in the end cutscene such-and-such happens). Would games therefore need 2 warnings? RobbieG 09:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC) reply
I believe that the above proposal is fair. If you have any points you may wish to add comment below.
To help prevent discussion from looping through repeated comments, this section allows editors to summarize their overall views on the issues above. Editors may revise their statements provided they link to previous versions (please use diff links from the edit history) of their statements so as to avoid confusion.
When offering comments on this matter, please place a header immediately below with your username as its title. Then offer your views of the issues presented. If you wish, indicate which proposed solution(s) you would support (you may be neutral or present your own proposal), as well as which you would be most in favor of (please be specific in this regard), as well as any potential pros or cons that you feel may follow as a result of recognizing one solution or another. If you are in support of a proposal mentioned above, please add your name to its list of supporters. Again, you may support more than one proposal, but please indicate preference.
In my time with encyclopedias and my capacity as an editor on wikipedia, I would really say that considering any information with the intent of informative intent as a "spoiler" is quite misleading and utterly destroys the purpose of an encyclopedia. Put simply, an encyclopedia is meant to distribute knowledge and all other quibbles and the like derived from the social crowd are irrelevant. As editors of wikipedia, this our duty as volunteers on the project. The encyclopedia comes first. Always. When an editor or editors presume outside needs of a networking group deserve the attention at the integrity of the encyclopedia there is a serious problem.
On earlier discussions, it has been established the spoiler tag was intended as a cooup-out for people who came to wikipedia for entirely the incorrect reasons, such as the false view of a review site, that of a online catalog and dumping ground of information from all veins of subjects. This is entirely the wrong view we wish to give wikipedia. And I've no idea why we should encourage those kinds of people in the construction of an encyclopedia. Wikipedia is still an encyclopedia, first and foremost. The unique premise of wikipedia as an online source of information is only in effect to permit the variable tools we utilize to improve the quality and wide range of content for encycloepdia. In that wikipedia is a new and different venue of sharing this knowledge is true, but our expanded content does not permit the we neglect what an encyclopedia is and how it treats information. An encyclopedia treats all of its information on equivilent standing as to verify its proffessional and neutral take to give each individual subject equal care. The goal of wikipedia is not to re-invent the spirit of the encyclopedia, but to expand, elaborate and provide complete inclusion on all sources of knowledge. As such, a video game such as Dead or Alive should and is demanded to recieve the same amount of neutral content and attention as the scientific subject known as the Sea Urchin. That's what wikipedia was intended to do - take the usual encyclopedia and expand the amount of knowledge it can hold. Additionally such implemtations such as talkpages, userpages, image uploads, templates, basic-level editting tools exist as sofar in they assist the encyclopedia. Things that do not directly assist the encyclopedia get deleted.
Many editors in support of the template raise functionally sensible arguments that are very appropriate - in an website that did not thrive upon knowledge and build upon elaboration such as plot details, specifics and other related data in the course of it being an encyclopedia. However, some editors became sidetracked; such falsely believed the social ideals derived from external websites were appropriate for the encyclopedia. As such the main arguments include "People like it", "some people think its useful for looking up data not relevant to an encyclopedia" and my favorite: "They don't hurt anything". Had this been an acceptable view such unencyclopediac content would not be disposed of at AFD and DRV (Although I must concced those processes are slightly broken at the current time).
I'm sorry, but that's the most mindbogglingly stupid thing I've ever seen on Wikipedia.
Apparently, a "spoiler" is a common term constructed in internet conversation and forums, designed to warn others of inappropriate introductions of story content in non-relevant discussions. Those websites are nowhere near the realm of an encyclopedia and do not document themselves as such. It would be silly to warn to someone whom has come to partake of knowledge at the outset, and furthurmore catering to those who continue to make a point of flaunting their wish to stay ignorant. Ignorance is a foriegn term to encyclopedias, great institutions and other great sources of knowledge. Its one that shouldn't even be considered, much less endorsed. Apparently, somewhere along the line editors percieved wikipedia's unique premise as a carte blanche for the introduction of this ideal and declared it as "essential to the workings of an encyclopedia". Go figure.
Spoiler tags are paticularly irrelevant to the basic tools provided to wikipedia editors and readers; the headers and Table of Contents in paticular make it entirely redundant. In addition, many reports have established the tag as placed directly below the header "Plot" or above the TOC. Um, the header doesn't accomplish that how...? Soem might suggest that elaborates upon the content contained, but I utterly refute that claim on the basis people have common sense and people see stuff - If the header says "Plot" than the spoiler tag clarifies nothings. If the prose in question is several pharagraphs in length than of course there will likely be substantial elaboration. Everyone knows how to look at things. Everyone knows an encyclopedia is comprehensive. To presume a reader has no knowledge of this and present the template as a "courtesy" is an utter lie. Stupid people don't read encyclopedias. And by its nature, wikipedia is very simplistic in nature concerning navigation, especially in the article namespace.
This is an entirely friviolus template, concieved on imaginary conceptions outside the well-being of the encyclopedia itself. They incite confusion, including the false interpretation about what Wikipedia is for (many editors have described it as helpful for those coming to look up information for game reviews and the like; that's not what this site was intended for); they look unprofessional and they trod upon article format, paticulary in thumb ing images. And they are extremely subjective. You cannot define what is and what is not a "spoiler". For example, the Juggernaut (comics) features a redundant spoiler at the start of the article. Compare to Spider-Man, which has a spoiler and end spoiler in a individual prose nearing its conclusion. This is very, very unhelpful. Why aren't these artcles tagged similarly...? Why is this left to the neutral editors of an encyclopedia...? How does it assist the encyclopedia's purpose and quality to others...?
If spoiler tags needn't be removed for the sake of an encyclopedia than I suggest we remove wikipedia's status as an encyclopedia itself. This hasn't any purpose in the course of a goal to build a great encyclopedia. - Randall Brackett 16:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Basically, my reasoning for — at the very least — seeing spoiler tags taken off the default version of the site (though I'd prefer to see them deleted) is that they are based in individual editors' points of view concerning what may or may not be appropriate for readers to see. This judgement is then passed on to the readers in an attempt to influence them not to learn something specifically selected by the editor.
Our NPOV and no censorship policies were created for the purpose of keeping editors' opinions out of the articles. They're not supposed to be trying to influence which information the readers do or do not read, or how they absorb it. All information here that has met the criteria for inclusion is supposed to be treated the same. None of it is supposed to be given a banner that says "This might ruin your ability to enjoy a story," and I honestly don't care if it does ruin someone's ability to enjoy a story. We're not here to put courtesies before principles. As our very first policy says, "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Its goals go no further, and material that does not fit this goal must be moved to another Wikimedia project or removed altogether". Wikipedia's founded on encyclopedic principles. If it's going to be an encyclopedia, it's going to have to conform to these principles, and that means spoiler tags (a POV editor-based judgement intended to present specifically-targeted information in a biased light) should not be here. If they're here, then this is a glamorized fansite, and not an encyclopedia.
The bottom line is this: there's a certain integrity involved in being an encyclopedia, and the hypocrisy imposed by allowing spoiler tags to be present undermines that. If they're going to be here, Wikipedia's not an encyclopedia and shouldn't claim to be one. If my fellow editors do not have enough concern for the principles and integrity of what we're here to do to ensure that they are upheld, then I will personally think that we should push to see the claim that Wikipedia's an encyclopedia removed. If it's going to be a fansite, it shouldn't be masquerading as a professional, unbiased, comprehensive body that is serious about knowledge. If it's going to babysit the notion that knowledge is harmful and that shielding people from information is okay in a setting that's supposed to be impartial, then it should not be claiming the dignified title of "encyclopedia". Wikipedia either is an encyclopedia or it isn't. If it isn't one, then it shouldn't be claiming to be one. Pretty simple.
Note to Jimbo Wales and the Board: I understand that the idea behind the project is pretty much to let it govern itself. I understand that you guys hope for editors to agree in the best interests of the encyclopedia. I understand that you don't want to interfere. But is this just an experiment to find out if the concept can work? That strangers from all over the world can actually agree and make an encyclopedia? Or is it an attempt to make sure that the mission is fulfilled? I know you guys don't want to interfere in things like this, but if you want this to be an encyclopedia, one would think you'd make sure that it is one when guys like Randall and I can't, when our authority is non-existent or too limited. As editors here, all of us, even those I disagree with, should be working to make this place an encyclopedia. We should never have been able to even argue over this matter. Someone should have stepped in to make sure that the principles outlined were upheld if this place is truly to be an encyclopedia. Sometimes you can't just let the system work when the system is rigged to undermine itself. Sometimes you have to straighten it out and make sure it works.
Now, I'm not blaming you guys, because I understand why you don't like to make decisions for us and that you probably have more pressing matters on a regular basis, but I think that — just as the editors of an encyclopedia must put the princicples of an encyclopedia before courtesies — that the system we all hoped would work in the creation of this encyclopedia must sometimes be put on the backburner for the integrity of the mission itself. The purpose must come before the practice. Ryu Kaze 17:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I think one of the things we've got to work out is that perhaps we're going to have to be clear that there's no consensus for the use of spoiler templates, but that we're going to have to offer guidance on how they should be used if there is consensus within a given article to use them. I think it might be an idea to look at offering an additional template, rather broader in scope to be placed at the top of an article, for articles where agreement is hard to reach. Hiding Talk 17:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I support the use of warning people about spoilers. To anyone who believes we should remove the spoiler warnings, how about once we know the secret to the next Harry Potter book (or whatever spoiler), let's put the spoiler at the top of the article (with no warning) and feature that article on the front of wikipedia so everyone gets spoiled by it? Would anyone really be okay with it? DyslexicEditor 18:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Well there is a comprimise where the spoiler tag also spoils the plot. Harry potter example (contains spoiler). I'm using this as an example of why wikipedia's current spoiler tags are good. DyslexicEditor 18:19, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Response to DyslexicEditor
What are you talking about...? When people come to wikipedia on a fiction-driven story such as Harry Potter, they expect to read upon the plot. The very Plot itself is integral to the HP articles as its the book's selling point. - Randall Brackett 13:33, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I have long been a proponent of spoiler tags. Apologize that I have not been involved in the most recent discussions, as I've had some time constraints to my time on Wikipedia, but I have been following it from afar, and I'd like to thank all parties involved for their dedication towards trying to find a solution and consensus.
The bottomline for me is, and always has been, that spoiler tags are beneficial to readers. Perhaps not beneficial to all readers, but there is certainly a large chunk of Wikipedia readers who find spoiler tags helpful and informative. I myself have benefited from them in my casual reading of the encyclopedia. While I certainly understand the arguments against them, particularly from writers who feel constrained working around them constantly, we have to remember that this encyclopedia should be optimized for readers moreso than for writers. Yes, we should strive to be professional, but part of being the best encyclopedia we can be is being the most reader friendly that we can be. EWS23 ( Leave me a message!) 20:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I believe people supporting spoiler warnings because they might be "useful" are missing the point. There are tons of things we could add to articles that can be seen as useful, but we aren't adding them because we are writing an encyclopedia. I could add to the Oslo article which pubs are the most popular, have cheapest beer, what beer brands, what it costs, when they are crowded, etc. This would be information that I would find useful if I were living elsewhere and planned on visiting Oslo and read about the city in Wikipedia. But this is simply not stuff we include in an encyclopedia. Useful or not. On Wikitravel beer prices might be appropriate, though. And on many movie-blogs, slashdot, and fan sites, spoiler warnings are expected and often used. But that's there, and not here. Being useful has nothing to do with it. The warnings make the articles look so silly and amateurish that it's ruining not only the articles they're in, but the whole encyclopedia. If an encyclopedia is what Wikipedia is. I'm starting to have my doubts. Shanes 20:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I am not just an editor of this encyclopedia; I am also a reader. As a reader, I find spoiler warnings to be useful. I recognize that there is a legitimate argument to be made that usefulness is not our primary goal. However, I reject the premise that creating an encyclopedia (where "encyclopedia" is defined narrowly as conforming to certain strict rules) is more important than reader courtesy. An encyclopedia is, inherently, a courtesy to the reader. Without readers, the encyclopedia is only so much data. First and foremost, the encyclopedia must be useful and helpful to the reader. Every single one of our guidelines and policies are pursuant to that, in some way.
Normally, I would be tempted to agree that a section labeled "Plot" or something similar should serve as sufficient warning for spoilers. However, it is extremely common for plot summaries in other media to go out of their way to avoid revealing spoliers. This is particularly true for just-released fiction, something which print encyclopedias simply cannot cover. As an encyclopedia which is quickly updated with the most current information on fictional works, some of which are yet unreleased, we are in a unique position among encyclopedias. As such, we must take that into account when we are determining how to apply our primary goal (that is, being useful to the reader).
-- Powers 02:12, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
People need to stop trying to see Wikipedia as a clone of Brittanica or other classic encyclopedias of years gone by. This is a totally different animal and the rules are different. Articles can be written within minutes of an event or an announcement, and as a result there will be copious amounts of material written on films, TV shows, books, etc. which contain spoilers. Just because Alice in Wonderland is a classic that's been around for 100 years doesn't mean that everyone knows how it ends. I never found out until I took it in university. Now, I will agree that spoiler tags are often misused; not everything mentioned regarding a book or film or TV show is a spoiler. But given the tendency for editors (and I'm one of them) to post detailed synopses, I think spoiler tags are a necessary evil (for lack of a better phrase; I don't consider them evil at all). The only alternative would be to establish a Policy (not a Guideline) banning the presence of detailed synopses in articles. However that's a debate for another forum. And the only way to make Wikipedia exactly the same as Brittanica is to ban amateurs like, well, 99.9999% of people who contribute to this site. 23skidoo 03:01, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I am completely opposed to the deletion of spoiler warnings. I maintain that they are neither biased nor censorship, and therefore I see no reason to get rid of them. However, many people disagree with this, so I'm going to present my complete argument below.
Spoiler warnings need not be biased
Sounds like an oxymoron, doesn't it? But it's true, providing we do away with the actual term "spoiler warning" and replace it with something more neutral. Why? Well, plot details invaribly do follow such warnings. All we need to do is to make a definition of "spoiler" that is universally accepted. For example, if we say that all plot details are spoilers, or all plot details not printed on the cover of a story/movie/game.
Where spoiler warnings are biased
Spoiler warnings are not in themselves censorship
I'm frankly astonished that the censorship argument is still being used. Spoiler warnings are plainly not censorship. We are not withholding info. We are not preventing people from reading anything they want to read, because if they want to read it, they'll just ignore the warning. The only people who'll heed it are those who do not intend to read the plot anyway. Wikipedia is not compulsary. I don't think that's on WP:NOT, but frankly, it bleeding well should be. I can't emphasise this any stronger, Wikipedia is not compulsary! Wikipedia is not compulsary! Yes, it's obvious. So why are people ignoring it? Wikipedia users do discriminate between what pieces of information they want to read. An encyclopaedia aims to be useful. I can't imagine anyone would consider it to be encyclopaedic if people who came here to research bicycle pumps ended up reading instead about traffic control, or people looking for a description of quarks wound up reading about Knaaren. There are people who won't read Wikipedia at all. Spoiler warnings do serve a useful purpose in the encyclopaedia. They don't really help people find the precise information they are looking for, but they do help them avoid reading stuff they don't want to, which is basically the same thing. That's not censorship, because people do it anyway.
Where spoiler warnings would be censorship
On the guideline discussion there was a proposal to create a device to hide spoiler content on Wikipedia. I think that goes too far. We have to draw the line somewhere. If we delete information, we are censoring it. Likewise, it's definitely censorship to only include spoilers in sections labelled "Plot" (or similar). It's way too restrictive. The spoiler warnings actually prevent such restrictions.
What's an encyclopaedia?
I'm not trying to be stupid here. Seriously, what is an encyclopaedia? It doesn't really mean anything. It's just a collection of information. An encyclopaedia of supercars is hardly going to be NPOV, but nobody can claim it isn't an encyclopaedia. Britannica has been known to print bias as well. We don't do that here. Wikipedia follows many of its own rules. We present a NPOV, we are not paper, we are not censored for minors, we are not a crystal ball, we have categories, we use hyperlinks, we cite sources and oh, we use spoiler warnings. All encyclopaedias are different, so the argument that something is "not encyclopedic" is laughable.
But the spoiler warning template looks ugly!
Which is also a POV. It looks fine to me. Besides, we're an encyclopaedia, not a piece of artwork, so I don't see that aesthetics are crucial to the debate.
There. That's my argument. I have got more I could say, but for now I think I've gone on long enough. If you'd like me to clarify my position on something, I'd be happy to, so just ask. Thanks for reading. RobbieG 11:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Of course it's "POV". That's his point. I say, if someone wants to redesign it, let's discuss it. It can be made to be more aesthetically pleasing. Nightscream 19:24, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I just want to add an observation to this whole thing; Wikipedia articles are often top-3 Google hits, and almost always top-10. 20 years ago, someone who went to Britannica to read about Hamlet expected a spoiler, and if they didn't, it was their own problem for spoiling it for themselves. Many people click on a high-ranking Google hit looking for casual information.
We live in the Internet age, where information can appear much more rapidly than it ever could before. People here are talking about how it's tough if Citizen Kane or Casablanca are spoiled for some people. What if a major new release such as the latest Pirates of the Carribean movie is spoiled for a guy doing a Google search for a trailer, 3 days before the movie is released, by a Wiki editor who watched a bootleg video they found on BitTorrent?
I also see "censorship" thrown around. Censorship is the omission of information, not a qualification about the information about to be read. Removal of spoiler tags will lead people towards omission rather than qualified inclusion, and that's censorship.
Spoilers are not a recent internet fad, although the term may be relatively recent. Film critics 65 years ago would have been fired if they told their reading audience what happened at the end of Casablanca. Wiki editors today have the same responsibility to respect the feelings of their readers.
I remember someone posting the identity of the character who dies in the most recent Harry Potter novel minutes after the book's release, as they had flipped to the last few pages to get the scoop. A casual Harry Potter fan reading that page looking for a release date coming across such a major plot point with no warning would be justifiably furious, and this is where we do the project wrong. If spoiler warnings were removed wholesale for some vague notion about their "encyclopedianess", or a POV notion about their aesthetic, people would run into situations like this all the time - and many of them would never click a Wiki link again, nor think of contributing. It would just make them dislike the whole project. Who benefits from that? - dharmabum 09:35, 19 July 2006 (UTC) reply
This'll be short for now, but gve it some thought anyway: the spirit of NPOV is for fairness and reliability for readers, right? How many readers come across a spoiler warning and think to themselves "WTF, since when does Wikipedia judge what is or isn't a spoiler, or what is or isn't good or bad about reading a spoiler?! That's bias!" A reader who goes to Howard Dean and reads "Howard Dean is insane, and Democrats have ruined their chance at destroying the country by making him head of the DNC" is going to think "Wow, what conservatively biased crap, so much for being an encyclopedia." But if they come across a spoiler warning and decide it doesn't matter if the article ahs spoilers and read on, they're not going to think "Man, these guys think I should think twce before reading this next section just because they assume I don't want the plot revealed to me? I'm not gonna read that crap!" SOmething to think about. Karwynn (talk) 22:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC) reply
The key issue here is of style. Some spoiler tags have been deleted from plot summaries in articles with the rationale that it's obvious that the plot section will contain spoilers. In effect, this just gives reason to orphan the spoiler template and further the anti-spoiler warning cause. The fact that the user should expect that the plot section will contain spoilers doesn't really hold water. The style of how plots are divulged varies widely between articles. While Leroy & Stitch spoils the whole film, the article on Wet Hot American Summer doesn't spoil much of anything. Going from two articles like these that vary wildly in how they divulge the plot, a user doesn't know what to expect in terms of how much of the film will be spoiled. In this respect, a spoiler tag would be useful.
I agree with the point that "Choosing to add the tag or not is similar to other decisions in the editorial process", but that's about the only point on either side that I agree with. I don't see the harm in including them, as they are quite useful for some users and aren't truly censorship. It's a more clear decision about what a user would consider to be a spoiler is over what a user might find objectionable. That having been said, I don't Wikipedia would be any worse off without them either. Users would eventually learn that Wikipedia freely displays spoilers and would be more judicious in reading articles if they need to do so.
There's a lot of problems with Wikipedia that might stop it from being viewed as a professionally done encyclopedia. A few of them are the inclusion of articles on topics that would not appeal to a general audience (articles on web site forums come to mind), imbalances on article length, bias towards certain topics and substandard prose. In the end, there are things that are a lot more unprofessional and unencyclopedic on Wikipedia than spoiler warnings. -- Jtalledo (talk) 19:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I have decided to remain neutral on this particular issue. Under the circumstances, my opinions are irrelivent because I do not want to get involved in such a heated debate that has very little return for me as an editor. In other words: I don't really care either way. While I think there should always be a compromise, is the yield really worth the effort for any party involved? Mediation, professionalism, and so on are key to Wikipedia; however, in this case, I feel that there are more pressing matters to work on, such as editing and content policy or guideline disputes. Let's prioritize.
Swimming against the tide, I'll try to keep this brief. Delete the tings, or at the very least deprecate their use. If retained, made a guideline, and applied consistently and thoroughly (as a guideline should be), we would end up with spoiler warnings on the Illiad, Tale of Genji, King Lear, Exile and the Kingdom, One Hundred Years of Solitude, or even operas like Marriage of Figaro, Don Giovanni, Aida. This would culminate in tagging even the Bible and the Avesta. Simply ridiculous. Beyond this, the tags and general warnings add nothing in well structured articles, and both are eyesores in all instances. As for dealing with recent publications and films, there are consequences to hunting for information on a book or film you haven't seen.-- Monocrat 17:26, 22 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I find it extrenley silly that those that oppose spoiler tags seem to believe this is a censorship or that it violates NPOV, if some one would care to elaborate?
I am extremley disgusted that some users may wish to remove spoiler tags as they not only aid articles but provide integrity to the project (Wikipedia) Matthew Fenton ( contribs) 11:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC) reply
While I try to steer clear of highly controversial issues, this one hit me in the face. I came across this while carring out Maintenance. Personally, I despise spolier warnings, and feel that better, encyclopedic organisation under categories should be used instead [i.e. "Plot", "Conclusion"]. If they must be used, I feel that they should be hidden by default, with instructions made available to activate them. I am not opposed to the spoiler tags in principle, just to the way they have been used, especially the unilateral application to classic literature [does the article on the Three Billy Goats Gruff really need spoiler tags]. Also, people's perception of 'spolier' differs depending on their understanding, and familiarity with the subject matter. I feel most of this controversy is down to people not using their common sense! >< Richard 06 12 UW 16:51, 30 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Place any discussion or comments that do not fit into any of the above sections here.
There seems to be some consensus for avoiing the word spoiler in any warning. Perhaps instead we should amend the template, or create an alternative to read Plot details follow which may spoil enjoyment of the work. Any thoughts? Hiding Talk 18:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
The phrase "may spoil enjoyment of the work" is terribly POV. Pass. Hypocrite's version is much better but to be honest the current version is fine. The term "spoiler" has joined the words "blog" and "ipod" in the lexicon of the year 2006. Get used to it is what I suggest. 23skidoo 03:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
This could go across all fictional articles. It's similar to the may contain nuts approach on food labels. Hiding Talk 11:26, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
An adaptation for sections:
This would be more specific, but still refrain from attempting to define what actually is a spoiler, and so could be used for all article sections to which it applies. Hiding Talk 12:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I like these two templates, and I am tempted to use them anyway, as it seems there is precious little consensus around here. For the record, I refuse to use any template that mangles the English language by using the "and/or" phrase. Carcharoth 13:35, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
In my view, "dicusses a fictional work" is superfluous in section headings because plot only apperas in fictional works. -- GunnarRene 15:37, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
This comment is being made a lot to oppose the case by case argument, and could people just clarify what it means. Should a spoiler template be inserted in every sdingle article? Because I can't see what it means if it doesn't, and yet I can't believe it means use them in every single article. So could people outline what they mean, as their opposition to the point isn't clear. Should the article on the United States have a spoiler template? I know this seems like I'm being facile, but I'm not. We need to get a good idea of what people think constitutes a spoiler, so that we can work out what we all agree is definitely a plot detail that needs a template. Hiding Talk 11:10, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
While there are a lots of eyeballs looking this way, I'll bring up a personal bugbear of mine. I hate the use of the phrase "and/or" in the template. It is jarring and unprofessional. The Wikipedia manual of style says not to use such and/or constructions in the articles (see WP:MoS#Slashes), so why has it been allowed in a widely used template? Carcharoth 13:39, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Again, since a lot of people seem to be reading this page at the moment, I'd like to point out some cases where I have had plot points spoilt on talk pages and in other places. To my mind, spoiler tags are much better used on talk pages, as they are much more like the discussion forums where such spoiler tags first arose. I would expect to find spoilers in the articles (and so don't need spoilers tags there), but I find it easier to inadvertently stumble across a spoiler on a talk page. This is why in this edit I added the spoiler tag at the top of this talk page (there is currently a Superman Returns spoiler on this page), though maybe I should have put the tag in a more precise location. Hopefully that will explain things to the editor who removed the tag with this edit summary. I also take umbrage that this editor responded to my "no - seriously - this page DOES contain spoilers!" edit summary with: "rm stupid tag. I presum someone is attempting to be funny." thus showing that there was no attempt to assume good faith or even an attempt to look through the page history for the edit summary explaining the addition of the tag.
The other case where I encountered a spoiler was in the non-visible tags that are sometimes placed on article pages, but which are visible when you click "edit this page". For a discussion of this issue (and it involves Harry Potter spoilers), see here. In some very real sense, this raises the question that editors could use spoiler tags to restrict editing to only those editors who have read the latest books in a series. That can't be right. Carcharoth 13:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
That's why I think it would be preferable to avoid using the term "spoiler warning" because it isn't NPOV. I'd prefer something like
That could be placed above all plot details indiscriminately, thus avoiding bias. RobbieG 21:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Yes, but as I said above, that's way too restrictive. I'd say it was censorship. If an article on Internet memes wants to mention a certain plot detail from Harry Potter 6 as it's a popular meme, we should allow it to, not confine that info to the Harry Potter plot details section, where it doesn't belong. This proposed template would avoid that problem. In a sense, it would be just a label. RobbieG 21:41, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
And yet you maintain that the "Plot details" heading is all that is needed? That doesn't make sense. We should be allowed to put plot details elsewhere, and that's where these templates would be helpful. I get the point that you find the whole concept of spoiler warnings ridiculous, but there are many others who do not share this view, as evidenced above. RobbieG 21:51, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I'm utterly baffled as to how a "plot details" section is any more restrictive than having to stuff spoilers in between spoiler tags. These little "spoiler sections" seem far more restrictive. Plot sections would at least match the look of rest of the 'pedia. AMHR285 (talk) 01:13, 19 July 2006 (UTC) reply
It seems to me you are advocating a general template on the top of all fictional articles, something like "This article discussing a fictional work may contain plot details". I would be perfectly happy to support that. Hiding Talk 11:22, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Robbie, I appreciate your view, but with regard to your POV argument, you seem to be operating under the assumption that there is a concrete, NPOV definition of the term "spoiler" which includes all plot information. I disagree here. Most dictionary definitions I can find refer to a spoiler as a published piece of information that reveals a "surprise or a plot twist" in a work of fiction. I don't believe one can really argue all plot information in any fictional source is intended as a surprise. To borrow your example, the fact that The Little Engine That Could saves the day in the end is obviously not intended to be incredibly surprising: it's printed on the back cover synopsis of almost every edition, and the image from the page in which it saves the day is also the cover image. To presume that all information in a story should be a secret from the reader/viewer at the time they pick up a work of fiction is POV-pushing -- it pushes the POV that anything other than complete ignorance of the story from the time you read a book or see a movie is a less enjoyable, less pure experience -- in other words, that it "spoils" the experience. By contrast, not making any statement about what does or doesn't "spoil" the story is not POV. If I placed a tag in an article saying "plot information follows, but it won't ruin anything for you if you know about it advance" that would be POV, but not saying anything about the subject of what information "spoils" a story is perfectly neutral. -- Lee Bailey (talk) 13:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
At first I thought the idea of coming up with examples of spoilers and working out what is really a spoiler and what isn't was a silly idea. But the more examples I look at, the more I realise that sometimes you really can tell what a spoiler is, though it is difficult to put into words.
I agree that "secret" plot twists (such as "who did it", and the Sixth Sense example) are worthy of spoilers. At the other extreme, you have events that are widely known, such as the fate of the Titanic (I'm talking here about spoilers for the movie, not the historical article, obviously), or the title kind of gives it away "The Little Engine That Could", for example. And inbetween, you have a spectrum of other possibilities.
One thing that did strike me though was that the blurb written on the back of many books gives away more of the plot than Wikipedia does. There are even some books where the author gives away plot details near the beginning, or the foreshadowing of events is an integral part of the style. The examples I am talking about here are The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion by J. R. R. Tolkien. In the prologue to LotR, the basic outcome is given away to the reader. The same happens to varying degrees in The Silmarillion.
In other words, a lot of this should be done on a case-by-case basis, but I would suggest that the onus be on those using spoiler tags to justify them. They have to say why this really is a spoiler.
In the case of the Sixth Sense, the fact that the ending is a spoiler should actually be mentioned in the article. Something in the lead section should say that "The film ends with a surprise twist that casts the film in a new light. A full appreciation of this <insert technical term here> can only be obtained by watching the film without previous knowledge of the ending. Those who have had the ending revealed to them are said to have had the ending spoiled for them."
Then just use variants of the above in articles with major spoilers. Carcharoth 22:41, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
But the movie Titanic has a fictional subplot with two characters, so the spoiler tags are still needed, at least when covering what happened to Jack and Rose. United 93 also has spoiler tags as well, specifically for the ending, since it isn't quite true to the 9/11 Commission's story. Hbdragon88 16:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC) reply
...been thinking about this a lot, and I think the optional spoiler warnings off-by-default option is still probably the best compromise position, in terms of potentially being acceptable to the widest number of editors. I've noticed, however, it's got a lot of oppose votes above based on the idea the tags would be pointless if off by default. So, by way of compromise yet again, how would people feel about something like what I've attempted to illustrate here [6] ?
By default, one "warning" message only appears at the top of any article with tagged spoilers. This message gives the reader the option to switch the normal warnings ON for the article without being logged in. In theory, logged-in editors could set a preference somewhere to always show spoiler warnings, never show spoiler warnings, or use the default and go by a case by case basis. I believe this would be technically possible to implement. -- Lee Bailey (talk) 23:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Whether you or I think spoiler tags are an issue of POV or not has nothing to do with whether or not it's non-impartial to place that kind of notice on one page and not another. That's one of those black and white subjects that even value assumptions play no part in. If all articles get it, that's impartial. If all don't, then it isn't. There's no way around that one. POV has nothing to do with the matter in this case. Ryu Kaze 00:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC) reply
(reset indent) Thanks for the explanation. I disagree that there will be no agreement to keep things the way they are now. The poll on keeping the spoiler tags is currently running at 21 in favor vs 7 opposed. That is pretty strong consensus to keep them the way they are. (Assuming things continue as they are, of course). The strongest consensus of all the polls (again assuming things stay on this track) is the consensus to keep the spoilers on by default (22 to 4). That is why I find it puzzling to put energy against that emerging consensus.
It is also why I suggest that a better potential compromise would be to rework the above template to say:
This article contains spoiler warnings. To turn them off, click here.
Advantages to this are:
This is a compromise compared to the current situation, since right now you have no way to turn off the spoiler tags. Johntex\ talk 01:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I generally agree that Lee's idea would reduce the 'unprofessional presentation' complaints of many, but unfortunately it doesn't address my primary concern. Specifially, the problem I have with 'spoiler warnings' is not the tags themselves, but the reshaping of articles caused by the concept. Central facts which would normally be included in the lead are removed to prevent 'spoilage', all 'spoiler' information is concentrated into a single segment in the middle of the article rather than appearing where it would more naturally fit, et cetera. Unfortunately, hiding spoiler tags will not eliminate this problem... there is an inherent difference between writing in an encyclopedic style and writing in a 'spoiler safe' style. On 'the other side' this inherent conflict in goals leads to complaints about 'spoilers outside the spoiler section' or articles not having spoiler warnings (the disagreement over whether Beowulf should have spoiler warnings being a good example).
As such I'd like to suggest another option... same concept of the banner at the top with clickable options and defaults settable somewhere, but instead of turning 'section spoiler tags' on and off it instead turns the spoiler text itself on or off. Write the entire article with no concern whatsoever for spoilers and then go through and mark sections or individual sentences/clauses to not display if spoilers are a concern. By default you get the banner which has an on/off toggle for 'spoiler text' with such defaulted to display just as in Lee's proposal (possibly having a preference setting to default to spoilers hidden). Someone who doesn't care about spoilers at all could set an option to hide the banner itself and thus always see an article written in an encyclopedic organizational style with no banner or tags. We haven't used 'hidden text' for spoilers to date primarily because of concerns about unprofessional appearance and technology issues. I think the first is less of a problem if it is something you have to 'opt into' - and it can help to remove the equally problematic tags. The tech issues could be eliminated entirely with a MediaWiki change, but at present are really only a concern for a handful of old browsers and screen-readers (well under 1% of users)... which would receive the spoiler warning banner, but no option to hide the spoiler text.
I can see where this might still result in different writing style than if there were no spoilers at all... breaking sentences so that a spoiler fact is isolated from non-spoiler facts, having a couple of lines in the 'plot' section which are very generic non-spoiler text (e.g. 'The Empire Strikes Back picks up X years after the events of the first Star Wars film and continues to follow the characters introduced there.') that continues to display when the rest of the plot is hidden, et cetera. However, these would be comparatively minor and could be smoothed out. Everyone would receive a top of the article spoiler warning unless they specifically chose not to, clunky 'spoiler section' tags would never be displayed, and all but a very few (or everyone if a MediaWiki change were made) could choose to read a non-spoiler version of the article. Thoughts? -- CBD 12:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I will shortly write this essay, which states briefly that I believe spoiler tags should be use sparingly and only when revealing the detail so tagged would substantially negatively impact the ability of a reader to enjoy the work so spoiled, and that the spoiler has not entered mainstream culture enough that the vast majority of readers are not already spoiled.
As such, I have, and have been, throughtout this discussion, removing spoiler tags from every article mentioned. I have not been reverted. Hipocrite - «Talk» 13:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Re "that the spoiler has not entered mainstream culture enough that the vast majority of readers are not already spoiled". Hm. How does this affect non-American readers, or those who choose to read/watch an old book or film? -- GunnarRene 14:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC) You're welcome to move this section to the talk page of that essay though. -- GunnarRene 14:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC) reply
(reset indent) Again, choosing to use a spoiler tag or not is no more a POV question that any other editing decision we make, such as whether or not to include a specific image, or a specific reference. Johntex\ talk 19:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Note: Feel free to move this sub-section to where on this page you think it fits.
We have an article called Criticism of the Bible. Some Christians might believe the Bible to be infallible and don't want to see critisism of their faith could avoid that article to keep away from most of the critisism, could they not? Is that an obstacle to learning? The Bible article has critisism spread throughout, but a similarly loyalist Michael Moore fan could keep away from
Michael_Moore#Controversy_and_criticism and be spared most of the critisism. And if you're an
Ann Coulter fan, there's three "Negative" sections that you can avoid learning if you want to. Somebody made a judgement that the section contained something negative about Ann Coulter, and now the course of that information is restricted into those sections, and then restricted from being read by the reader (see censorship section above). And the editors of those articles have the point of view that the information is "critisism" and not support (POV?). In fact,
WP:NPOV itself suggests making those kinds of sections. Section headers do not correlate directly 1-to-1 to spoilers, but it's a good enough approximation for the process of assessing and categorizing information. --
GunnarRene
23:56, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
reply
Another thing: Somebody browsing Category:Christianity can avoid the Criticism of Christianity article, and with machine assisted filtering, they could block all articles in the subcategory Category:Biblical criticism. There goes the critical people and their theories. Assesment. Classification. Censorship or Avoidance by reader. -- GunnarRene 00:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I have no intention of creating the above essay, but it makes for a good section break. Judging from the straw poll above, it looks like most people (so far) are in favor of spoiler tags being shonw by default. Therefore, I think we should put some energy into systems that would keep the spoiler tags on by default. I have made one suggestion that I will make again here to kick off the new section:
I think this has several advantages:
I look forward to your thoughts. Johntex\ talk 19:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Johntex, I realize that most people stated they were against a "spoiler-warnings-off-by default" system in the poll above. Reading the responses listed in that poll, though, the impression I got was that many of the editors who voted against the idea disliked it because they thought it meant that people would be at risk of seeing spoiler information until they turned them off. The concern that keeps being brought up is that 1) people won't know that there's an option to turn warnings on, and will see spoilers or 2) the system will be too hard for people to figure out. I proposed this compromise as a way of demonstrating that it's possible to have spoiler off by default and to have adequate warning for those who want to see them. I'm certainly not trying to go against any majority, but I agree with what Robbie and Ryu have said already: the compromise you have promposed doesn't actually address the issue that those who are opposed to the warnings have. My understanding of this is that most people in the anti-warning camp have expressed ideological opposition to having these warnings "officially" exist by default in Wikipedia, while most of the pro-spolier-warning editors I've seen seem to be concerned mostly with preserving the practical purpose of these tags. Either way, there's a mild inconvenience to whichever side winds up off-by-default, but my point is, the off-by-default system seems to satisfy everyone except for that unavoidable inconvenience; the on-by-default system only satisfies one side. -- (Lee) Bailey (talk) 22:01, 20 July 2006 (UTC) reply
.spoiler{ display: none; }
I think we have to bear in mind that we don't currently tag articles which contain porn, do we? We make sure such images are appropriate to the content and that's about all, we let the general disclaimer handle the rest. I think the same approach should be used here. If people coming to articles on porn are clear on what to expect, then people coming to articles on fiction are too. Hiding Talk 11:00, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply
For all these reasons, I think the comparison is faulty and that nothing in this comparison lends any support for the idea of hiding or eliminating spoiler tags. Johntex\ talk 19:57, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Trying to draw this into something we might be likely to all agree on:
Any thoughts, objections, changes? Hiding Talk 12:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Thanks for this suggestion, here are my views on each point:
Best, Johntex\ talk 16:40, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I never thought it would happen, but I've finally found a use of the spoiler warning that baffles even me - "it's a small world". What? It's a ride (and a particularly irritating and tacky one at that!), it doesn't need a spoiler warning because it has no real plot. I'm not going to remove the notice as that would be pretty much hypocrisy coming from me, but I expect somebody else will. I've found new sympathy for those who think spoiler warnings should be decided on a case-by-case basis. RobbieG 08:15, 22 July 2006 (UTC) reply
It's all very well arguing that older works don't need spoilers, but how many people here have actually read the Iliad? What about King Lear? Moby Dick? Beowolf? A Tale of Two Cities? The Canterbury Tales? I'll bet there are people here who have never even seen King Kong (and I'd win that bet. I've never seen it!). In fact, I haven't seen or read any of the above, but there's nothing to say I won't. I watch old films, after all. I've read A Christmas Carol and Bleak House and Through the Looking-Glass, and I've seen A Midsummer Night's Dream and Twelfth Night. It's perfectly possible to spoil an old story for somebody. I'm not saying we should plaster spoiler warnings all over (there have got to be other solutions), but I think that should be taken into account. RobbieG 12:11, 23 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Your claim may be true of Shakespeare, and perhaps also therefore Chaucer and Homer, but Victorian English was very similar to the English of today. Both the Dickens novels I've read worked very well as novels. Bleak House was full of plot twists. Anyway, J.R.R. Tolkein considered Beowolf to be just as good a saga nowadays as it was when first penned, as did a number of students to whom he read it. As for popular culture, I've lived my life this long without finding out the end of Moby Dick. All I know about it is that there is a character named Ishmael and a captain who's fanatically obsessed with killing a particular whale. Also, popular culture doesn't tell you everything; I know how King Kong ends, but I don't know anything else about it. RobbieG 13:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC) reply
No, that's fair enough, but we are supposed to show a NPOV. Actually, I'd be perfectly content if we all just went away and carried on using spoiler warnings as before, deleting ones we find unnecessary and adding those we think are required. Wikipedia is self-policing, after all. I only got involved in this debate as I'd heard a rumour that they were planning to delete spoiler warnings completely, and I can't allow that to happen. RobbieG 14:22, 23 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Sorry, but what are you saying? I'm afraid I don't understand. Are you in favour of spoiler warnings or against them? If you're saying that the presence of spoiler warnings is somehow making the site less encyclopaedic, then can you please tell me a defintion of encyclopaedic? You see, there doesn't seem to be one. RobbieG 07:34, 25 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Well, things have started to die down in this debate, so it might be a good time to reflect on where we're at so far.
I think it's pretty clear that a straight deletion of spoiler tags or spoiler notification won't be in the near future. If one where to take the feedback under the proposed solutions as a poll, then keeping the tags would win. However, even as a pro-tag editor I'm not very content with just that. Before coming to any "conclusion" I think it might be a good idea for pro-tag editors and those with guideline concerns to come up with guideline revisions. Then come back to the main discussion and present the revisions and see if this addresses additional concerns.
There are things, such as now spoilers might impact where people put information (inside the "box"), handling classic fiction, people mistaking the guideline as policy, etc, that could easily be addressed without total spoiler tag removal. A lot of arguments have been made on both sides, and now it's time to put our money where our mouthes are. Just because spoiler tags will be kept doesn't mean that we can't improve on the situation or address some of the issues brought up. -- Ned Scott 03:19, 26 July 2006 (UTC) reply
First, I have to say, that in a discussion about spoilers, due to the examples used, there is a spoiler warning at the top of the page : )
I strongly think we need to retain "some" warning, especially due to overseas usage. (Or even timezone differential.) And I don't think we should differentiate classical works from modern works in spoilerage, to do so would be to make a judgement (POV) about the works themselves, which I wouldn't think we would want to do here.
In addition, something to think about in the case of publication/broadcast/etc... There is a difference between a spoiler due to the official distibution, leaked information prior to the distribution, and advertisements prior to the distribution.
And I agree that spoilers aren't for talk pages (since one has to discuss them "somewhere" : )
That said, I also agree that an update of the warning(s) might be appropriate.
I think we should retain the word spoiler in the template. It's widely used on the internet, which makes it a useful clarion. And I think it's good as a "guideline".
I like the idea of just dropping "and/or ending" from each spoiler warning (since the ending is technically a plot detail)?
Also, while I think we need some spoilers for things that are not fictional works (Dancing with the Stars, for example), the following or something similar likely works well enough:
![]() | This article documents a
current event. Information may change rapidly as the event progresses, and initial news reports may be
unreliable. The
latest updates to this article
may not reflect the most current information. Feel free to
improve this article or discuss changes on the
talk page, but please note that updates without valid and
reliable references will be removed. (
Learn how and when to remove this message) |
- Jc37 17:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC) reply
OK, here's my rough proposal:
This would reduce the use of spoiler tags to a bare minimum without outlawing their use and without increasing the likelihood of readers having works spoiled. -- Daduzi talk 02:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC) reply
To help avoid groupthink and get some fresh ideas on how to approach updating the guidelines, I was thinking that maybe we should approach some of the fictional WikiProjects. Many projects incorporate WP:SPOILER into their own guidelines and suggestions, and it would be interesting to see what independently (or semi-independently) groups come up with. Not to say that those of us who aren't apart of those projects shouldn't come up with ideas. We should still continue conversation here (here being somewhere in the Wikipedia talk:Spoiler warning pages or sub pages, since this one is so long we might want to sprout out another page or go to the main talk page).
For example, Wikipedia:WikiProject Stargate uses a lot of spoiler tags with specific notices to what season they spoil, and have even included "spoiler free" versions of their episode lists (they're actually just the lists without summaries at all, just air dates, episode numbers, and titles).
I'd like to hear from some of the smaller show specific Projects as well as the larger ones, like Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga. Ask all these groups to start a discussion about how they and their editors typically use spoilers and what they think could be done to improve their usage, then take those responses and put them back here.
-- Ned Scott 05:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Yes Hipocrite, I am a member of the Stargate project and I will tell you first hand that they are very dedicated to creating an honest encyclopedic Stargate section so I would appreciate you not calling our validity into question. The reason we adopted such extreme spoiler regulations was because many countries have not aired certain episodes or seasons due to a delay in broadcasting. So we list out what section has spoilers and for what season (in other words your "slippery slope" argument, which is fallacious by the way, is irrelevent since most shows do not suffer this type of delay and thus would only need to list that an article contains spoilers and the reader would know what it meant). For example, a certain ship is debuted in an early season that takes place in a battle in the current and preceding season. Someone browsing the article on the ship, which contains only spoilers for the earlier season, would find a link to the article pertaining to the battle in which the ship played a role. If the user followed that link he would immediately see a spoiler warning for seasons 9 and 10 and know that he/she would not want to read that article. Without those tags they would not know, thinking the battle had already taken place according to the episodes they had seen and they had merely forgotten or not known the official name. Spoiler tags are quite relevent to this encyclopedia and should be used wherever a community consensus deems them necessary in my opinion. Konman72 11:59, 28 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I think that, given the discussion so far, the consensus has been that spoiler tags are to be kept, but there need to be guidelines or standards in place to better control them. One concern I've seen repeated is that there isn't consistency, and that we have warnings on things (such as the Three Billy Goats Gruff (whether we do or not, just an example) that shouldn't require such. Perhaps we can find some common ground and build from there? For example, anything that has yet to be published/aired but gives away important/signifigant plot information qualifies as a spoiler? Is that something everyone could agree on (assuming spoiler tags are here to stay) if it were worded better? Darquis 06:25, 28 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Should we move to the main talk page ( Wikipedia talk:Spoiler warning) to discuss the guidelines, make a new sub page, or continue here? I'm not saying we should close the RfC yet, as people still seem to be coming in with comments, but.. this page is already very large, and we'll be addressing specific guideline issues instead of the over-all concept of a spoiler tag. I think it would be wise to organize our discussion for the guidelines off this page, maybe with an occasional "check-in" or something as long as the RfC is still going. Thoughts? -- Ned Scott 13:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I have to say, I think The Crying Game and Empire are prime examples of what's wrong with the spoiler policy. It seems to me idiotic and pointless to write any kind of overview of either film without taking the twist into immediate account. The major advance of Empire is the addition of the Skywalker legacy and the tragedy of Darth Vader. The major interest of The Crying Game is its portrayal of gender. Without those two things being immediately put up front, anything you say about the films is so massively incomplete as to be not worth saying. Phil Sandifer 20:35, 2 August 2006 (UTC) reply
The header's just there because I noticed how long this page is getting; please ignore it, it's just for the convenience of Firefox and Google Toolbar users.
None of those, with the possible exception of hyperlinks, are stylistic issues, though. And in the case of NPOV, it's hardly an invention of Wikipedia. Again, you're arguing for the inclusion of a blatant neologism that appears, in the definition you're using it, in no major dictionary that anyone has found, and arguing for its use in a way that no comparable reference work uses it. This is not good, and not the sort of revolution that Wikipedia should be engaged in. We're radical in our means of construction, progressive in our methods of formatting, and conservative in our standards of acceptability. Phil Sandifer 19:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC) reply
Ok guys, shut up already. I'm sorry for being rude, but both of you already know how each other feels about this, and it's obvious no one is going to change the other persons view with comments like these. This is just leading us to get mad at each other and not solving anything. -- Ned Scott 01:51, 5 August 2006 (UTC) reply
Wikipedia talk:Spoiler warning/guidelines
Knock yourselves out, and remember, comments on this page are not about deleting spoilers or rejecting them. Keep those comments on this talk page. Since I don't think the guidelines will be a heated debate, I haven't really structured anything like we've done here. So.. yeah.. there we have it. -- Ned Scott 22:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Noting new discussion for those who still have this on their watchlists: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Spoiler warning. -- Ned Scott 04:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC) reply
{{
spoiler-blank|This discussion uses some examples of
spoilers Explicit examples/sections should be labelled below.}}
Some indirect references might be unlabelled.
This claim holds that spoiler tags are a violation of Wikipedia's policy of "Neutral point of view", or "NPOV". This claim is held on the grounds that they are specifically geared to the purpose of suggesting to readers that they may not wish to read this information, a non-impartial judgement made on the basis of an editors' own interpretations and assumptions. The spoiler warning (in fact created to serve that very purpose and called just that: a warning) is, by its very nature, an example of an editor inserting their opinions into an article to influence readers' decisions to read or not read specific information. A warning can only exist if someone has passed their judgement upon it and then creates a notice based on that judgement. In this case, that is what is taking place with spoiler warnings, and that personal judgement of editors is being passed on to the readers.
NPOV was ipmlemented for the specific purpose of keeping editors' personal opinions out of articles, and not allowing these opinions to reach readers to the effect of influencing what information they absorbed or how they perceived it as they absorbed it. An aspect of this policy is known as " Let the facts speak for themselves". The detailed plot information within an article will identify itself as such on the basis of what it is offering. It need not be specifically targeted with a banner that strives to suggest to readers that the information may be inappropriate for them to view.
Most, if not all, spoilers can easily be agreed on by most editors and readers. If not, then visit the issue on an article by article basis.
What would be a point of view is how that spoiler might affect someone's enjoyment of the text. If we commented on the tags, like saying "this is a class 10 spoiler!" or "You won't laugh as much at this scene", that would be point of view. There are some fictional works where, based on by past or current experience with similar work, I can spoil myself and still enjoy it. But other stuff can really effect the enjoyment of a work of fiction when you know something prematurely. Spoiler warnings don't comment on the why and how, they only comment that it is a spoiler. I do not see the labeling of spoilers as a POV.
We are labeling information, just as we label protagonists and antagonists, major themes, or any other element. Some readers might use these labels for navigation, some might not.
People might get some feedback from the editor based on how an editor writes or formats an article, such as what parts of the topic the editor chooses to focus on. In any case, the effect spoiler tags have, in my experience and others, is as insignificant as how something is formatted. -- Ned Scott 13:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
There is no POV issue inherrant to the spoiler tag. What point of view is advanced by saying that the following information gives away plot or ending details? The point of view that the ending to the Sixth Sense was not an important ending detail? Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Useful things are only part of our objective in so far as they directly contribute to the objective of being an encyclopedia. As said many times, useful things are not inherently placed in an encyclopedia. This includes phone books, and any number of things that might be based on POV. Plenty of useful things out there. Not all of them conform to the principles of an encyclopedia, though, which is our only basis for what goes here. Ryu Kaze 20:05, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I thought of a good example of how something is borderline POV that editors include in many articles: genre. I've seen debates over what genres people think a TV show falls under, and worse. Are those labels in the same boat as spoiler tags in that sense? -- Ned Scott 22:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
POV IS inherent in the spoiler tag. Why do some plots get spoiler warnings but not others? Judgments are made to determine this case by case. Travislangley 21:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I'd like to remind everyone again that it's neutral point of view, not no point of view. Almost everything has a point of view, but it's about how it's neutral or not. If spoiler tags are not neutral, in what context are they not neutral? -- Ned Scott 21:58, 31 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I want to make an argument that I'm not seeing above, although perhaps I'm missing it. I think spoiler tags are POV not so much in their specific application to a portion of a media article, but in their application to media articles in general, as opposed to other articles. I think this represents a general cultural bias on behalf of the editors.
We do not, for example, have a spoiler tag on evolution articles warning that reading said article might shatter one's narrow religious beliefs, or on religious articles warning that reading them might spoil one's narrow materialism. Why not? Is it more important to protect a movie-goers comic enjoyment than it is to protect someone's entire worldview? Perhaps these are apples and oranges, but I can imagine crossover cases. For example, should the article on Job have a spoiler warning so the reader does not prematurely learn that Job gets his family back (in the edited version).... Ethan Mitchell 02:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC) reply
;-)
--
Swift
23:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
reply
I'm sorry, I'm not making myself clear. What I am looking for is some general reason why we should use spoilers in case X (certain kinds of fiction) and not in case Y (everything else). All I can find, and all I am hearing in this discussion, is a hodgepodge of specific rules which I am not even clear are spelled out anywhere: we don't use spoilers when about purportedly factual articles; we don't use spoilers when experiencing the message of God; etc.; and in the remaining cases, we do use spoilers when we feel that audience enjoyment of something might be compromised by learning plot details.
The very absence of some general policy seems to me extraordinarily precious. If we are so concerned about our readers having enjoyable experiences, why aren't we interpreting that point more broadly? And if we are equally concerned about all this side constraints--factuality and God and who knows what--then what is the unifying proposition behind these constraints? If I say that Jack and the Beanstalk shouldn't have a spoiler warning, because it involves legumes, where is the general line of argument to shoot me down?
What I'm contending is that the unifying principle here is one of cultural norms, and unless someone suggests something else, I have to continue thinking that. Ethan Mitchell 00:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC) reply
As a consequence of the previous claim, this claim holds that spoiler tags are a violation of Wikipedia's policy of "Wikipedia is not censored". This claim is held on the grounds that — " censorship" being defined as "the act or practice of censoring", this latter word itself defined as "to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable" — spoiler tags are a case of the unstandardized regulation of information with regards to the presentation of its content as appropriate or inappropriate to some.
While Wikipedia certainly doesn't include all information, policies such as "Wikipedia is not censored" or "NPOV" are designed to prevent the inclusion of an editors' own assumptions and judgements concerning information that has already met the requirements for inclusion here, most notably verifiability and relevance with regards to the subject. In other words, if information has been found to merit inclusion in the article, then it is simply relevant information that is then supposed to be presented to the readers as impartially as any other information, whether this information be spoilers or not. It is to be treated as any other information would be and offered to the readers as such.
As can be seen by clicking on the encyclopedia-wide disclaimer at the bottom of any Wikipedia page, there is already a notice to readers that any and all sections of any and all pages may contain detailed plot information. This serves as a universal notice that identifies all information within this encyclopedia, and, thus, it is an impartial and standardized regulation. Spoiler tags, however, target specific information selected by an editor on the basis of their own judgement of what they feel may be seen as inappropriate by some.
Also, unlike simple headers (such as "Development" or "Gameplay"), spoiler tags are not designed to the function of making information more accessible to the reader by grouping it into coherent sets that flow from one to another. They, in fact, aim to suggest readers not look at specific information. The spoiler tags are designed to serve as a warning, a deterrent, a suggestion of what is one's best interest. For that matter, the word itself carries a negative connotation. "Spoilers" is so-called due to the idea that knowing plot details before viewing a work will spoil/ruin the later experience of viewing that work — this, in itself, being a judgement based on editors' assumptions.
Wikipedia's policies already inform readers that there are things on Wikipedia that some may find inappropriate. This includes, but may not be limited to, images of pornography, abuse and torture of humans, genocide, prostitutes, female genitalia, exotic dancers and also artwork of children or individuals with child-like appearances in sexual situations or imagery alluding to sexual situations. In fact, several such images and even entire articles have been targeted for censorship of various kinds in the past (examples: opposition to a pornographic image, attempt to have the Lolicon page deleted, creation of a censored version of the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse page, creation of a censored version of the Clitoris page), only to be protected on the grounds that Wikipedia is not censored, regardless of concerns over what is appropriate or inappropriate to some. In fact, one particular warning tag (much like the spoiler tag being discussed here) attempting to warn people about images of torture was also denied.
Just to get things started for the pro-spoiler-tag side:
The censorship accusation would only hold water if people used the warning itself as a reason not to read information, rather than their own decision to read or not to read. If a reader wishes to read only some information and not other, that is their right as a reader. Giving readers that option makes Wikipedia more useful. People know what we mean when we say "spoiler warning", they're not going to freak out over some misunderstanding and think the text is somehow dangerous. And spoilers, unlike pictures of aborted babies and dead puppies, aren't "offensive" or political or anything like that, so the spoilers themselves and any warnings about them are in a totally different league than what we think of as censorship. If the tags were an attempt to influence the reader, then maybe, but informing the reader to allow them to make their own choice is different than trying to influence them. -- Ned Scott 13:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Spoiler tags are not a violation of our not-censored policy. They are a violation of our no-disclaimer-templates policy (or guideline), but they are a specific exception designed to increase the value of the encyclopedia. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Well, that's the issue being discussed. I do, because it involves the insertion of a readers' POV to dissuade people from learning specific info. That, and it's something that doesn't actually aid our goal (and is supposed to be removed on those grounds alone, mustless any others). As far as I can see, the concept is in no way compatible with Wikipedia's policies (based in encyclopedic principle), and it isn't even compatible with one of its fellow guidelines for that matter (no disclaimer templates).
But you already know that, so I'll try to stop this particular line of discussion here so we don't end up going in circles. Ryu Kaze 18:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
To suppress, in the context of censorship, would not mean "to press down" some text because of a line-feed; suppress would mean " to keep from public knowledge: as a : to keep secret b : to stop or prohibit the publication or revelation of". Wikipedia censorship thus includes removing information that allready exists in the server (either by deleting it on the Wikimedia servers, or some intermediary party removing it from their physical distribution, or by firewall blocking) or stopping/disuaiding submission of information from entering the wikimedia servers (by blocking, carried out by wikimedia or by intermediaries, or by threathening the editors). In the case of porn or democracy information, there exists intermediary parties like parents, ISPs, employers or governments who try to block content for the users on their network, or who would like the content removed from the servers. If we had a tag or template for such content, it could provide technical assistance for these would-be censors, and in my opinion that might be one reason why the community does not want such templates. It might help real censorship. In the case of spoilers, however, I have seen no examples of a party that would block spoilers in the network, even if I've asked for such examples. -- GunnarRene 22:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
The idea that information is being suppressed by the inclusion of spoiler tags is incorrect. If anything, the opposite is true. We are providing more information to the reader. We are letting them know that what follows is either not available through primary sources (in the case of promotional or solicitation info from the publisher/producer/whatever) or may be something that the author/director/whatever used as a piece of mystery or intrigue. There's a big difference, say when summarizing an Agatha Christie novel, between saying it takes place in the English countryside and revealing that the butler did it. There's a big difference in a comic book article between information available from the comics themselves and what is provided in solicitations. We are merely acknowledging that difference. CovenantD 02:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Re: torture images in original argument: this shows a dispute tag, which alerts about a content dispute, stating that it's claimed to be wrong to include the content in Wikipedia and that it should be removed. Not quite analogous. Just thought I'd mention Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy is slightly more alike, since it also had people trying to move the images down on the page, but again, the strongest opposers wanted to remove the images completely. (Which is not suggested for spoiler content, only tags/warnings/templates) -- GunnarRene 11:26, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply
This claim holds that spoiler tags are an unprofessional and unencyclopedic tool, that — while, perhaps, useful to those who would rather not see spoilers — has no place in Wikipedia. Wikipedia is designed with the intention of being a comprehensive body of information on many subjects, including works of fiction. By the very definition of the word " encyclopedia" (appearing in the subtitle of Wikipedia, and visibile in two places on every single page of the encyclopedia), readers are informed of what to expect from this encyclopedia. In addition, the site's universal content notice (accessible from the bottom of every page of Wikipedia) and Wikipedia's policies serve also to make this known.
Those who do not wish to view comprehensive information, thus, should be aware already that by reading this encyclopedia, they may be viewing detailed plot information. Moreover, it is Wikipedia's very foundation to serve as a neutral, comprehensive body of information that puts principles of encyclopedic conduct before any thoughts of courtesies to readers when they do not directly aid the encyclopedia's mission. The encyclopedia's very first policy states "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Its goals go no further, and material that does not fit this goal must be moved to another Wikimedia project or removed altogether". Simply being considered useful by some is not grounds for a tool's inclusion in Wikipedia, especially if that tool calls for certain allowances concerning foundational policies, in this case, "NPOV" and "Wikipedia is not censored".
Additionally, the image of Wikipedia as a professional, uncensored and unbiased encyclopedia is tarnished by such exemptions to policy. Furthermore, these exemptions serve to set a precedent which may be cited in the future by others who wish to secure the inclusion of additional forms of censorship, as was attempted during the above-mentioned creation of a censored version of the Clitoris page with regards to the creation of a censored version of the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse page. Such exemptions can and will lead to further demands for exemptions. Once a double-standard has been established, it need only be consistently reiterated and looked to as the example for it to become the example of standard conduct.
A single exemption is as a thousand. The double-standard need only exist for the recognition of those policies being avoided to already be null and void. The standard has already been abandoned and an encyclopedia's image as a professional, uncensored and unbiased body of comprehensive knowledge is stained. A body of text either is an encyclopedia or it is not. There are certain principles that it must conform to in order to be one. Given that Wikipedia's mission is to be an encyclopedia, it must recognize the principles reflected in its policies in order to assert that it is one. Wikipedia's image is a direct reflection of the reality of its governance and the practices thereof. If there are exemptions and double-standards being allowed, they will not be invisible.
While there are certain professional bodies that do allow the inclusion of spoiler warnings, such as the New York Times, these professional bodies are not encyclopedias. Being professional in the context of journalism is sometimes significantly different from being professional in the context of encyclopedic behavior. For one, the journalism approach calls for the analyzation of information, and the presentation of conclusions drawn from that study. The encyclopedic approach, as used here on Wikipedia, calls for the presentation of raw data for the purpose of allowing others to analyze and draw their conclusions. In other words, an encyclopedia is something that one might reference if they were writing a newspaper article. As such, an encyclopedia cannot to be held to the standard of such a drastically different professional body.
However, where newspapers offer critical evaluations of art and commentary upon events, they are more similar in their approach to the encyclopedic one. Here, being professional in the context of criticism is similar to being professional in the context of encyclopedic behavior. Critics professionally analyse, evaluate and then present conclusions, as can be seen in this spoiler warning free review of Superman Returns by Philip French in The Observer. This piece discusses the film in a critical manner and analyses specific plot points and images for that evaluation, somewhat similar to the approach an encyclopedia takes. Also, critcal reviews are something editors to Wikipedia use as a reference when writing articles. As such, an encyclopedia may be held to the standard of such a professional body in certain situations. In general, however, journalism and encyclopedias take an entirely different approach.
For examples of the encyclopedic standard, we can look only to the principles of the concept at work, and the illustrations of those principles as displayed by Wikipedia's contemporaries. Such bodies as Encyclopedia Britannica, World Book Encyclopedia, Compton's Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia Americana, which do not include spoiler warnings in their articles about fictional works. While one might argue that paper encyclopedias cannot be considered as among the fraternity of an electronic encyclopedia, nowhere in Wikipedia's policies is such an ideal reflected. While Wikipedia is not paper, this has no bearing on the objective Wikipedia is striving for, nor the principles associated with reaching that goal. All Wikipedia's status as a paper encyclopedia alters are its limitations in achieving — or exceeding — the quality of its contemporaries. By virtue of its electronic nature, a number of additional tools are present to allow Wikipedia to more easily meet the aspects of its goal related to being comprehensive and rendering information easily accessible.
If, however, we were to look only to the electronic versions of Wikipedia's above-mentioned contemporaries, we would still find that these also do not include spoiler warnings in their articles about works of fiction. While some might argue that this is also not a valid indication of what Wikipedia should be striving for given that these other encyclopedias do not include often up-to-date information on in-progress television programs or upcoming films and books, to that one has to ask: if we are not looking to the princicples of making an encyclopedia, Wikipedia's own policies which reflect these principles (and which present themselves as the standard by which we are to follow) and Wikipedia's contemporaries, then where would we be looking, given that Wikipedia is not attempting to redefine the word "encyclopedia"? By virtue of its own policies and goal, Wikipedia identifies that it is attempting to be exactly what its goal and first policy says: an encyclopedia, and one that fits the previously established criterion of what that word entails.
Additionally, the use of a begin-spoiler and end-spoiler template approach to articles imposes the notion that spoilers must be contained "inside the box". This can lead to organization and layout issues, or incidents of "spoiler tag spaghetti", such as this one.
Given all this, Wikipedia's professional image can only be tarnished by the presence of spoiler tags, a tool popularized by usenet and fansites, not professional encyclopedias, with such practices have been strongly opposed by Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales. Again returning to the earlier point concerning tools that might be useful to some, Wikipedia's first policy states "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Its goals go no further, and material that does not fit this goal must be moved to another Wikimedia project or removed altogether". Given that spoiler tags offer no actual boon to Wikipedia's purpose of being an encyclopedia, they have no actual place here, useful to some or not. Also, given their dubious nature where Wikipedia's policies and encyclopedic foundations are concerned, they are more likely than not a tool counterproductive to its purpose.
I've been waiting to actually make comments, but I can't really let that last edit go about the whole Superman newspaper review. The damn review didn't have a spoiler, thus there wouldn't be a spoiler warning. Who cares if Usenet or fansites also use spoiler warnings, they've used a hell of a lot of stuff that is now standardized, (like custom signatures, which many of the anti-spoiler editors use, or terms like 'spam messages'). The concept of spoilers and even the word itself pre-dates the web, the only reason we see it a lot in the web is before people talked about movies and such instead of typing it out. Encyclopedias don't talk about fiction in this depth, that in itself is 'un-encyclopedic' by this definition, but we accept those articles as a new standard that Wikipedia is creating.
Just because no one has done it on such a large scale only means that we're the first. (first only in that it's a single entity, where as other uses have been scattered) A lot of people I don't want to associate with out there use terms and words that I use, I don't stop using those words because someone else I don't like uses them. Ask a random reader if they thought a spoiler tag was out of place on a wiki article (although I would agree with you that the tags on the classic fiction is a bit dumb, but I'll address that later). You want to second guess how readers perceive the internet, then go ahead, but the argument is completely unfounded and without any proof. Newspapers and paper encyclopedias are used to doing the things they've done for years, and are a hell of a lot less likely to change and grow, unlike Wikipedia. Just because fansites use them too, give me a break. I know people who, last year, thought things like internet chatting and instant messaging were just kids stuff, and now use those thing. This is an issue of POV that we can't predict, not what the view is now, or how it will be in the future. If anyone has actual proof or real feedback about how spoiler tags affect a readers view on wikipedia, then please, show me. -- Ned Scott 13:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Spoiler tags are a dramatic violation of our encyclopedic tone, and as such their use should be constrianed to places where the value of the ending to the plot at large overweighs our desire to be completist with information. Examples - M. Night Shalaman movies. Most other tags should go.
Hipocrite -
«Talk»
16:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
{{
spoiler-blank|Plot details from Superman Returns follow}}
reply
I've been waiting to actually make comments, but I can't really let that last edit go about the whole Superman newspaper review. The damn review didn't have a spoiler
I'm kind of floored that this doesn't end the debate. Of course spoiler tags are unprofessional. They're using a neologism to flag the fact that encyclopedia articles on a topic reveal information about that topic. It's completely absurd - we ought not be using a neologism like that, first of all, and we ought assume that people coming to Wikipedia are looking for information. This is not a fansite, we ought not engage in such blatant fanservice. Phil Sandifer 04:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC) reply
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location (
link) For the exampe of mainstream media using the word spoiler and giving a spoiler warning:
[3]. --
Ned Scott
05:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replyGiven that we are building an encyclopedia which is to be read, and given this incarnation of the Wikipedia exists on the internet, it has been argued that readers will expect spoiler warnings, given their usage in other internet resources. It has also been argued that, given Wikipedia's high profile in google searches, readers arriving at a page may not be aware of the purpose or nature of Wikipedia articles. It is felt by supporters of this argument that it is reasonable to assume that every unique article may be the first point of contact for a reader, and we should thus include spoiler warnings where appropriate on that basis.
I've created this section in an effort to address concerns below. I'm not wholly convinced by the argument, but I think there is merit there. It's worth noting that a print version of Wikipedia oughtn't to feel bound by the style guidance of the online Wikipedia. Hiding Talk 22:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
How's this: Talk:Spider-Man 3#SPOILERS? Obviously, people hate spoilers and want to be warned. – Someguy0830 ( Talk | contribs) 04:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Wikipedia isn't made for users, it's made for the readers. As far as encyclopedic goes, well, this isn't exactly a typical encyclopedia. How many print enyclopedias contain have info on
Puff puff pass or
Mr. and Mrs. Smith?
Karwynn
(talk)
21:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
reply
The following are proposed solutions to the issues discussed above, and the results of discussion here, here and here. Please be aware that users may add their name to the support of more than one solution. In such a case, please indicate preference. A simple placement of "(preference)" beside your name will suffice. Remember that this is not a vote, and if you list your name below be sure to indicate your reasons.
Note: additional solutions may be proposed and offered support. Please add new proposals to the bottom of this section.
One possible solution to this issue that has been presented is the notion of spoiler tags' default status being that they are turned off. In other words, someone accessing the encyclopedia would be approaching a default version in which there were no spoiler tags. They would, however, have the option (whether logged in or not) to turn them on.
Another solution suggested is that spoiler templates be deleted altogether.
Keep spoiler tags with options to revise guidelines to see when it is appropriate to use the tag or not.
See also Oppose this process
someone just changed this definition AFTER people had signed. plange 02:45, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
To clarify, this concept can go hand in hand with the idea of the guideline. "No guideline is absolute, and whenever there's a gray area things can be taken to the talk page of that article." vs "guideline trumps all". -- Ned Scott 02:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Spoiler templates were previously listed as a guideline, but it has been proposed that they be downgraded to essay status — a document that expresses the opinions and ideas of some Wikipedians, but that doesn't necessarily reflect Wikipedia's policies or actual consensus — or rejected as a proposal that failed to gain consensus.
Editors may also wish to read WP:PAG#The differences between policies, guidelines, essays, etc. this link added 17:55, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
{{
spoiler-blank|Plot details from Star Wars follow}}
There seem to be several reasons for spoilers. The 3 main ones seem to be:
For simplicity, we'll call these "events".
Each of these events could be split into fiction and non-fiction, and also by media type (book/film/TV series/video game/live performance (includes recorded ones)/etc.).
By this, even such things as sports games and the Olympics apply. So we should consider Wikipedia:Current and future event templates in this discussion, as well.
One issue is that some parts of the world receive the information (in publication/broadcast/etc.) before others. In addition, the "Soap-opera" based events often release solicitation information, or other advertisements.
So given all of this:
There seem to be several reasons for spoilers. The 3 main ones seem to be:
For simplicity, we'll call these "events".
One issue is that some parts of the world receive the information (in publication/broadcast/etc.) before others. In addition, the "Soap-opera" based events often release solicitation information, or other advertisements.
So given all of this:
Oh, are we still voting? Well, I'm still not sure about this proposal. I mean, if we use the example of a video game, I'm not sure that any of the above would be sufficient. You make a distinction between solutions (like: doing such-and-such kills the end boss) and plot details (as in: in the end cutscene such-and-such happens). Would games therefore need 2 warnings? RobbieG 09:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC) reply
I believe that the above proposal is fair. If you have any points you may wish to add comment below.
To help prevent discussion from looping through repeated comments, this section allows editors to summarize their overall views on the issues above. Editors may revise their statements provided they link to previous versions (please use diff links from the edit history) of their statements so as to avoid confusion.
When offering comments on this matter, please place a header immediately below with your username as its title. Then offer your views of the issues presented. If you wish, indicate which proposed solution(s) you would support (you may be neutral or present your own proposal), as well as which you would be most in favor of (please be specific in this regard), as well as any potential pros or cons that you feel may follow as a result of recognizing one solution or another. If you are in support of a proposal mentioned above, please add your name to its list of supporters. Again, you may support more than one proposal, but please indicate preference.
In my time with encyclopedias and my capacity as an editor on wikipedia, I would really say that considering any information with the intent of informative intent as a "spoiler" is quite misleading and utterly destroys the purpose of an encyclopedia. Put simply, an encyclopedia is meant to distribute knowledge and all other quibbles and the like derived from the social crowd are irrelevant. As editors of wikipedia, this our duty as volunteers on the project. The encyclopedia comes first. Always. When an editor or editors presume outside needs of a networking group deserve the attention at the integrity of the encyclopedia there is a serious problem.
On earlier discussions, it has been established the spoiler tag was intended as a cooup-out for people who came to wikipedia for entirely the incorrect reasons, such as the false view of a review site, that of a online catalog and dumping ground of information from all veins of subjects. This is entirely the wrong view we wish to give wikipedia. And I've no idea why we should encourage those kinds of people in the construction of an encyclopedia. Wikipedia is still an encyclopedia, first and foremost. The unique premise of wikipedia as an online source of information is only in effect to permit the variable tools we utilize to improve the quality and wide range of content for encycloepdia. In that wikipedia is a new and different venue of sharing this knowledge is true, but our expanded content does not permit the we neglect what an encyclopedia is and how it treats information. An encyclopedia treats all of its information on equivilent standing as to verify its proffessional and neutral take to give each individual subject equal care. The goal of wikipedia is not to re-invent the spirit of the encyclopedia, but to expand, elaborate and provide complete inclusion on all sources of knowledge. As such, a video game such as Dead or Alive should and is demanded to recieve the same amount of neutral content and attention as the scientific subject known as the Sea Urchin. That's what wikipedia was intended to do - take the usual encyclopedia and expand the amount of knowledge it can hold. Additionally such implemtations such as talkpages, userpages, image uploads, templates, basic-level editting tools exist as sofar in they assist the encyclopedia. Things that do not directly assist the encyclopedia get deleted.
Many editors in support of the template raise functionally sensible arguments that are very appropriate - in an website that did not thrive upon knowledge and build upon elaboration such as plot details, specifics and other related data in the course of it being an encyclopedia. However, some editors became sidetracked; such falsely believed the social ideals derived from external websites were appropriate for the encyclopedia. As such the main arguments include "People like it", "some people think its useful for looking up data not relevant to an encyclopedia" and my favorite: "They don't hurt anything". Had this been an acceptable view such unencyclopediac content would not be disposed of at AFD and DRV (Although I must concced those processes are slightly broken at the current time).
I'm sorry, but that's the most mindbogglingly stupid thing I've ever seen on Wikipedia.
Apparently, a "spoiler" is a common term constructed in internet conversation and forums, designed to warn others of inappropriate introductions of story content in non-relevant discussions. Those websites are nowhere near the realm of an encyclopedia and do not document themselves as such. It would be silly to warn to someone whom has come to partake of knowledge at the outset, and furthurmore catering to those who continue to make a point of flaunting their wish to stay ignorant. Ignorance is a foriegn term to encyclopedias, great institutions and other great sources of knowledge. Its one that shouldn't even be considered, much less endorsed. Apparently, somewhere along the line editors percieved wikipedia's unique premise as a carte blanche for the introduction of this ideal and declared it as "essential to the workings of an encyclopedia". Go figure.
Spoiler tags are paticularly irrelevant to the basic tools provided to wikipedia editors and readers; the headers and Table of Contents in paticular make it entirely redundant. In addition, many reports have established the tag as placed directly below the header "Plot" or above the TOC. Um, the header doesn't accomplish that how...? Soem might suggest that elaborates upon the content contained, but I utterly refute that claim on the basis people have common sense and people see stuff - If the header says "Plot" than the spoiler tag clarifies nothings. If the prose in question is several pharagraphs in length than of course there will likely be substantial elaboration. Everyone knows how to look at things. Everyone knows an encyclopedia is comprehensive. To presume a reader has no knowledge of this and present the template as a "courtesy" is an utter lie. Stupid people don't read encyclopedias. And by its nature, wikipedia is very simplistic in nature concerning navigation, especially in the article namespace.
This is an entirely friviolus template, concieved on imaginary conceptions outside the well-being of the encyclopedia itself. They incite confusion, including the false interpretation about what Wikipedia is for (many editors have described it as helpful for those coming to look up information for game reviews and the like; that's not what this site was intended for); they look unprofessional and they trod upon article format, paticulary in thumb ing images. And they are extremely subjective. You cannot define what is and what is not a "spoiler". For example, the Juggernaut (comics) features a redundant spoiler at the start of the article. Compare to Spider-Man, which has a spoiler and end spoiler in a individual prose nearing its conclusion. This is very, very unhelpful. Why aren't these artcles tagged similarly...? Why is this left to the neutral editors of an encyclopedia...? How does it assist the encyclopedia's purpose and quality to others...?
If spoiler tags needn't be removed for the sake of an encyclopedia than I suggest we remove wikipedia's status as an encyclopedia itself. This hasn't any purpose in the course of a goal to build a great encyclopedia. - Randall Brackett 16:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Basically, my reasoning for — at the very least — seeing spoiler tags taken off the default version of the site (though I'd prefer to see them deleted) is that they are based in individual editors' points of view concerning what may or may not be appropriate for readers to see. This judgement is then passed on to the readers in an attempt to influence them not to learn something specifically selected by the editor.
Our NPOV and no censorship policies were created for the purpose of keeping editors' opinions out of the articles. They're not supposed to be trying to influence which information the readers do or do not read, or how they absorb it. All information here that has met the criteria for inclusion is supposed to be treated the same. None of it is supposed to be given a banner that says "This might ruin your ability to enjoy a story," and I honestly don't care if it does ruin someone's ability to enjoy a story. We're not here to put courtesies before principles. As our very first policy says, "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Its goals go no further, and material that does not fit this goal must be moved to another Wikimedia project or removed altogether". Wikipedia's founded on encyclopedic principles. If it's going to be an encyclopedia, it's going to have to conform to these principles, and that means spoiler tags (a POV editor-based judgement intended to present specifically-targeted information in a biased light) should not be here. If they're here, then this is a glamorized fansite, and not an encyclopedia.
The bottom line is this: there's a certain integrity involved in being an encyclopedia, and the hypocrisy imposed by allowing spoiler tags to be present undermines that. If they're going to be here, Wikipedia's not an encyclopedia and shouldn't claim to be one. If my fellow editors do not have enough concern for the principles and integrity of what we're here to do to ensure that they are upheld, then I will personally think that we should push to see the claim that Wikipedia's an encyclopedia removed. If it's going to be a fansite, it shouldn't be masquerading as a professional, unbiased, comprehensive body that is serious about knowledge. If it's going to babysit the notion that knowledge is harmful and that shielding people from information is okay in a setting that's supposed to be impartial, then it should not be claiming the dignified title of "encyclopedia". Wikipedia either is an encyclopedia or it isn't. If it isn't one, then it shouldn't be claiming to be one. Pretty simple.
Note to Jimbo Wales and the Board: I understand that the idea behind the project is pretty much to let it govern itself. I understand that you guys hope for editors to agree in the best interests of the encyclopedia. I understand that you don't want to interfere. But is this just an experiment to find out if the concept can work? That strangers from all over the world can actually agree and make an encyclopedia? Or is it an attempt to make sure that the mission is fulfilled? I know you guys don't want to interfere in things like this, but if you want this to be an encyclopedia, one would think you'd make sure that it is one when guys like Randall and I can't, when our authority is non-existent or too limited. As editors here, all of us, even those I disagree with, should be working to make this place an encyclopedia. We should never have been able to even argue over this matter. Someone should have stepped in to make sure that the principles outlined were upheld if this place is truly to be an encyclopedia. Sometimes you can't just let the system work when the system is rigged to undermine itself. Sometimes you have to straighten it out and make sure it works.
Now, I'm not blaming you guys, because I understand why you don't like to make decisions for us and that you probably have more pressing matters on a regular basis, but I think that — just as the editors of an encyclopedia must put the princicples of an encyclopedia before courtesies — that the system we all hoped would work in the creation of this encyclopedia must sometimes be put on the backburner for the integrity of the mission itself. The purpose must come before the practice. Ryu Kaze 17:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I think one of the things we've got to work out is that perhaps we're going to have to be clear that there's no consensus for the use of spoiler templates, but that we're going to have to offer guidance on how they should be used if there is consensus within a given article to use them. I think it might be an idea to look at offering an additional template, rather broader in scope to be placed at the top of an article, for articles where agreement is hard to reach. Hiding Talk 17:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I support the use of warning people about spoilers. To anyone who believes we should remove the spoiler warnings, how about once we know the secret to the next Harry Potter book (or whatever spoiler), let's put the spoiler at the top of the article (with no warning) and feature that article on the front of wikipedia so everyone gets spoiled by it? Would anyone really be okay with it? DyslexicEditor 18:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Well there is a comprimise where the spoiler tag also spoils the plot. Harry potter example (contains spoiler). I'm using this as an example of why wikipedia's current spoiler tags are good. DyslexicEditor 18:19, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Response to DyslexicEditor
What are you talking about...? When people come to wikipedia on a fiction-driven story such as Harry Potter, they expect to read upon the plot. The very Plot itself is integral to the HP articles as its the book's selling point. - Randall Brackett 13:33, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I have long been a proponent of spoiler tags. Apologize that I have not been involved in the most recent discussions, as I've had some time constraints to my time on Wikipedia, but I have been following it from afar, and I'd like to thank all parties involved for their dedication towards trying to find a solution and consensus.
The bottomline for me is, and always has been, that spoiler tags are beneficial to readers. Perhaps not beneficial to all readers, but there is certainly a large chunk of Wikipedia readers who find spoiler tags helpful and informative. I myself have benefited from them in my casual reading of the encyclopedia. While I certainly understand the arguments against them, particularly from writers who feel constrained working around them constantly, we have to remember that this encyclopedia should be optimized for readers moreso than for writers. Yes, we should strive to be professional, but part of being the best encyclopedia we can be is being the most reader friendly that we can be. EWS23 ( Leave me a message!) 20:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I believe people supporting spoiler warnings because they might be "useful" are missing the point. There are tons of things we could add to articles that can be seen as useful, but we aren't adding them because we are writing an encyclopedia. I could add to the Oslo article which pubs are the most popular, have cheapest beer, what beer brands, what it costs, when they are crowded, etc. This would be information that I would find useful if I were living elsewhere and planned on visiting Oslo and read about the city in Wikipedia. But this is simply not stuff we include in an encyclopedia. Useful or not. On Wikitravel beer prices might be appropriate, though. And on many movie-blogs, slashdot, and fan sites, spoiler warnings are expected and often used. But that's there, and not here. Being useful has nothing to do with it. The warnings make the articles look so silly and amateurish that it's ruining not only the articles they're in, but the whole encyclopedia. If an encyclopedia is what Wikipedia is. I'm starting to have my doubts. Shanes 20:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I am not just an editor of this encyclopedia; I am also a reader. As a reader, I find spoiler warnings to be useful. I recognize that there is a legitimate argument to be made that usefulness is not our primary goal. However, I reject the premise that creating an encyclopedia (where "encyclopedia" is defined narrowly as conforming to certain strict rules) is more important than reader courtesy. An encyclopedia is, inherently, a courtesy to the reader. Without readers, the encyclopedia is only so much data. First and foremost, the encyclopedia must be useful and helpful to the reader. Every single one of our guidelines and policies are pursuant to that, in some way.
Normally, I would be tempted to agree that a section labeled "Plot" or something similar should serve as sufficient warning for spoilers. However, it is extremely common for plot summaries in other media to go out of their way to avoid revealing spoliers. This is particularly true for just-released fiction, something which print encyclopedias simply cannot cover. As an encyclopedia which is quickly updated with the most current information on fictional works, some of which are yet unreleased, we are in a unique position among encyclopedias. As such, we must take that into account when we are determining how to apply our primary goal (that is, being useful to the reader).
-- Powers 02:12, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
People need to stop trying to see Wikipedia as a clone of Brittanica or other classic encyclopedias of years gone by. This is a totally different animal and the rules are different. Articles can be written within minutes of an event or an announcement, and as a result there will be copious amounts of material written on films, TV shows, books, etc. which contain spoilers. Just because Alice in Wonderland is a classic that's been around for 100 years doesn't mean that everyone knows how it ends. I never found out until I took it in university. Now, I will agree that spoiler tags are often misused; not everything mentioned regarding a book or film or TV show is a spoiler. But given the tendency for editors (and I'm one of them) to post detailed synopses, I think spoiler tags are a necessary evil (for lack of a better phrase; I don't consider them evil at all). The only alternative would be to establish a Policy (not a Guideline) banning the presence of detailed synopses in articles. However that's a debate for another forum. And the only way to make Wikipedia exactly the same as Brittanica is to ban amateurs like, well, 99.9999% of people who contribute to this site. 23skidoo 03:01, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I am completely opposed to the deletion of spoiler warnings. I maintain that they are neither biased nor censorship, and therefore I see no reason to get rid of them. However, many people disagree with this, so I'm going to present my complete argument below.
Spoiler warnings need not be biased
Sounds like an oxymoron, doesn't it? But it's true, providing we do away with the actual term "spoiler warning" and replace it with something more neutral. Why? Well, plot details invaribly do follow such warnings. All we need to do is to make a definition of "spoiler" that is universally accepted. For example, if we say that all plot details are spoilers, or all plot details not printed on the cover of a story/movie/game.
Where spoiler warnings are biased
Spoiler warnings are not in themselves censorship
I'm frankly astonished that the censorship argument is still being used. Spoiler warnings are plainly not censorship. We are not withholding info. We are not preventing people from reading anything they want to read, because if they want to read it, they'll just ignore the warning. The only people who'll heed it are those who do not intend to read the plot anyway. Wikipedia is not compulsary. I don't think that's on WP:NOT, but frankly, it bleeding well should be. I can't emphasise this any stronger, Wikipedia is not compulsary! Wikipedia is not compulsary! Yes, it's obvious. So why are people ignoring it? Wikipedia users do discriminate between what pieces of information they want to read. An encyclopaedia aims to be useful. I can't imagine anyone would consider it to be encyclopaedic if people who came here to research bicycle pumps ended up reading instead about traffic control, or people looking for a description of quarks wound up reading about Knaaren. There are people who won't read Wikipedia at all. Spoiler warnings do serve a useful purpose in the encyclopaedia. They don't really help people find the precise information they are looking for, but they do help them avoid reading stuff they don't want to, which is basically the same thing. That's not censorship, because people do it anyway.
Where spoiler warnings would be censorship
On the guideline discussion there was a proposal to create a device to hide spoiler content on Wikipedia. I think that goes too far. We have to draw the line somewhere. If we delete information, we are censoring it. Likewise, it's definitely censorship to only include spoilers in sections labelled "Plot" (or similar). It's way too restrictive. The spoiler warnings actually prevent such restrictions.
What's an encyclopaedia?
I'm not trying to be stupid here. Seriously, what is an encyclopaedia? It doesn't really mean anything. It's just a collection of information. An encyclopaedia of supercars is hardly going to be NPOV, but nobody can claim it isn't an encyclopaedia. Britannica has been known to print bias as well. We don't do that here. Wikipedia follows many of its own rules. We present a NPOV, we are not paper, we are not censored for minors, we are not a crystal ball, we have categories, we use hyperlinks, we cite sources and oh, we use spoiler warnings. All encyclopaedias are different, so the argument that something is "not encyclopedic" is laughable.
But the spoiler warning template looks ugly!
Which is also a POV. It looks fine to me. Besides, we're an encyclopaedia, not a piece of artwork, so I don't see that aesthetics are crucial to the debate.
There. That's my argument. I have got more I could say, but for now I think I've gone on long enough. If you'd like me to clarify my position on something, I'd be happy to, so just ask. Thanks for reading. RobbieG 11:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Of course it's "POV". That's his point. I say, if someone wants to redesign it, let's discuss it. It can be made to be more aesthetically pleasing. Nightscream 19:24, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I just want to add an observation to this whole thing; Wikipedia articles are often top-3 Google hits, and almost always top-10. 20 years ago, someone who went to Britannica to read about Hamlet expected a spoiler, and if they didn't, it was their own problem for spoiling it for themselves. Many people click on a high-ranking Google hit looking for casual information.
We live in the Internet age, where information can appear much more rapidly than it ever could before. People here are talking about how it's tough if Citizen Kane or Casablanca are spoiled for some people. What if a major new release such as the latest Pirates of the Carribean movie is spoiled for a guy doing a Google search for a trailer, 3 days before the movie is released, by a Wiki editor who watched a bootleg video they found on BitTorrent?
I also see "censorship" thrown around. Censorship is the omission of information, not a qualification about the information about to be read. Removal of spoiler tags will lead people towards omission rather than qualified inclusion, and that's censorship.
Spoilers are not a recent internet fad, although the term may be relatively recent. Film critics 65 years ago would have been fired if they told their reading audience what happened at the end of Casablanca. Wiki editors today have the same responsibility to respect the feelings of their readers.
I remember someone posting the identity of the character who dies in the most recent Harry Potter novel minutes after the book's release, as they had flipped to the last few pages to get the scoop. A casual Harry Potter fan reading that page looking for a release date coming across such a major plot point with no warning would be justifiably furious, and this is where we do the project wrong. If spoiler warnings were removed wholesale for some vague notion about their "encyclopedianess", or a POV notion about their aesthetic, people would run into situations like this all the time - and many of them would never click a Wiki link again, nor think of contributing. It would just make them dislike the whole project. Who benefits from that? - dharmabum 09:35, 19 July 2006 (UTC) reply
This'll be short for now, but gve it some thought anyway: the spirit of NPOV is for fairness and reliability for readers, right? How many readers come across a spoiler warning and think to themselves "WTF, since when does Wikipedia judge what is or isn't a spoiler, or what is or isn't good or bad about reading a spoiler?! That's bias!" A reader who goes to Howard Dean and reads "Howard Dean is insane, and Democrats have ruined their chance at destroying the country by making him head of the DNC" is going to think "Wow, what conservatively biased crap, so much for being an encyclopedia." But if they come across a spoiler warning and decide it doesn't matter if the article ahs spoilers and read on, they're not going to think "Man, these guys think I should think twce before reading this next section just because they assume I don't want the plot revealed to me? I'm not gonna read that crap!" SOmething to think about. Karwynn (talk) 22:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC) reply
The key issue here is of style. Some spoiler tags have been deleted from plot summaries in articles with the rationale that it's obvious that the plot section will contain spoilers. In effect, this just gives reason to orphan the spoiler template and further the anti-spoiler warning cause. The fact that the user should expect that the plot section will contain spoilers doesn't really hold water. The style of how plots are divulged varies widely between articles. While Leroy & Stitch spoils the whole film, the article on Wet Hot American Summer doesn't spoil much of anything. Going from two articles like these that vary wildly in how they divulge the plot, a user doesn't know what to expect in terms of how much of the film will be spoiled. In this respect, a spoiler tag would be useful.
I agree with the point that "Choosing to add the tag or not is similar to other decisions in the editorial process", but that's about the only point on either side that I agree with. I don't see the harm in including them, as they are quite useful for some users and aren't truly censorship. It's a more clear decision about what a user would consider to be a spoiler is over what a user might find objectionable. That having been said, I don't Wikipedia would be any worse off without them either. Users would eventually learn that Wikipedia freely displays spoilers and would be more judicious in reading articles if they need to do so.
There's a lot of problems with Wikipedia that might stop it from being viewed as a professionally done encyclopedia. A few of them are the inclusion of articles on topics that would not appeal to a general audience (articles on web site forums come to mind), imbalances on article length, bias towards certain topics and substandard prose. In the end, there are things that are a lot more unprofessional and unencyclopedic on Wikipedia than spoiler warnings. -- Jtalledo (talk) 19:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I have decided to remain neutral on this particular issue. Under the circumstances, my opinions are irrelivent because I do not want to get involved in such a heated debate that has very little return for me as an editor. In other words: I don't really care either way. While I think there should always be a compromise, is the yield really worth the effort for any party involved? Mediation, professionalism, and so on are key to Wikipedia; however, in this case, I feel that there are more pressing matters to work on, such as editing and content policy or guideline disputes. Let's prioritize.
Swimming against the tide, I'll try to keep this brief. Delete the tings, or at the very least deprecate their use. If retained, made a guideline, and applied consistently and thoroughly (as a guideline should be), we would end up with spoiler warnings on the Illiad, Tale of Genji, King Lear, Exile and the Kingdom, One Hundred Years of Solitude, or even operas like Marriage of Figaro, Don Giovanni, Aida. This would culminate in tagging even the Bible and the Avesta. Simply ridiculous. Beyond this, the tags and general warnings add nothing in well structured articles, and both are eyesores in all instances. As for dealing with recent publications and films, there are consequences to hunting for information on a book or film you haven't seen.-- Monocrat 17:26, 22 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I find it extrenley silly that those that oppose spoiler tags seem to believe this is a censorship or that it violates NPOV, if some one would care to elaborate?
I am extremley disgusted that some users may wish to remove spoiler tags as they not only aid articles but provide integrity to the project (Wikipedia) Matthew Fenton ( contribs) 11:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC) reply
While I try to steer clear of highly controversial issues, this one hit me in the face. I came across this while carring out Maintenance. Personally, I despise spolier warnings, and feel that better, encyclopedic organisation under categories should be used instead [i.e. "Plot", "Conclusion"]. If they must be used, I feel that they should be hidden by default, with instructions made available to activate them. I am not opposed to the spoiler tags in principle, just to the way they have been used, especially the unilateral application to classic literature [does the article on the Three Billy Goats Gruff really need spoiler tags]. Also, people's perception of 'spolier' differs depending on their understanding, and familiarity with the subject matter. I feel most of this controversy is down to people not using their common sense! >< Richard 06 12 UW 16:51, 30 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Place any discussion or comments that do not fit into any of the above sections here.
There seems to be some consensus for avoiing the word spoiler in any warning. Perhaps instead we should amend the template, or create an alternative to read Plot details follow which may spoil enjoyment of the work. Any thoughts? Hiding Talk 18:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC) reply
The phrase "may spoil enjoyment of the work" is terribly POV. Pass. Hypocrite's version is much better but to be honest the current version is fine. The term "spoiler" has joined the words "blog" and "ipod" in the lexicon of the year 2006. Get used to it is what I suggest. 23skidoo 03:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
This could go across all fictional articles. It's similar to the may contain nuts approach on food labels. Hiding Talk 11:26, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
An adaptation for sections:
This would be more specific, but still refrain from attempting to define what actually is a spoiler, and so could be used for all article sections to which it applies. Hiding Talk 12:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I like these two templates, and I am tempted to use them anyway, as it seems there is precious little consensus around here. For the record, I refuse to use any template that mangles the English language by using the "and/or" phrase. Carcharoth 13:35, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
In my view, "dicusses a fictional work" is superfluous in section headings because plot only apperas in fictional works. -- GunnarRene 15:37, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
This comment is being made a lot to oppose the case by case argument, and could people just clarify what it means. Should a spoiler template be inserted in every sdingle article? Because I can't see what it means if it doesn't, and yet I can't believe it means use them in every single article. So could people outline what they mean, as their opposition to the point isn't clear. Should the article on the United States have a spoiler template? I know this seems like I'm being facile, but I'm not. We need to get a good idea of what people think constitutes a spoiler, so that we can work out what we all agree is definitely a plot detail that needs a template. Hiding Talk 11:10, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
While there are a lots of eyeballs looking this way, I'll bring up a personal bugbear of mine. I hate the use of the phrase "and/or" in the template. It is jarring and unprofessional. The Wikipedia manual of style says not to use such and/or constructions in the articles (see WP:MoS#Slashes), so why has it been allowed in a widely used template? Carcharoth 13:39, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Again, since a lot of people seem to be reading this page at the moment, I'd like to point out some cases where I have had plot points spoilt on talk pages and in other places. To my mind, spoiler tags are much better used on talk pages, as they are much more like the discussion forums where such spoiler tags first arose. I would expect to find spoilers in the articles (and so don't need spoilers tags there), but I find it easier to inadvertently stumble across a spoiler on a talk page. This is why in this edit I added the spoiler tag at the top of this talk page (there is currently a Superman Returns spoiler on this page), though maybe I should have put the tag in a more precise location. Hopefully that will explain things to the editor who removed the tag with this edit summary. I also take umbrage that this editor responded to my "no - seriously - this page DOES contain spoilers!" edit summary with: "rm stupid tag. I presum someone is attempting to be funny." thus showing that there was no attempt to assume good faith or even an attempt to look through the page history for the edit summary explaining the addition of the tag.
The other case where I encountered a spoiler was in the non-visible tags that are sometimes placed on article pages, but which are visible when you click "edit this page". For a discussion of this issue (and it involves Harry Potter spoilers), see here. In some very real sense, this raises the question that editors could use spoiler tags to restrict editing to only those editors who have read the latest books in a series. That can't be right. Carcharoth 13:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
That's why I think it would be preferable to avoid using the term "spoiler warning" because it isn't NPOV. I'd prefer something like
That could be placed above all plot details indiscriminately, thus avoiding bias. RobbieG 21:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Yes, but as I said above, that's way too restrictive. I'd say it was censorship. If an article on Internet memes wants to mention a certain plot detail from Harry Potter 6 as it's a popular meme, we should allow it to, not confine that info to the Harry Potter plot details section, where it doesn't belong. This proposed template would avoid that problem. In a sense, it would be just a label. RobbieG 21:41, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
And yet you maintain that the "Plot details" heading is all that is needed? That doesn't make sense. We should be allowed to put plot details elsewhere, and that's where these templates would be helpful. I get the point that you find the whole concept of spoiler warnings ridiculous, but there are many others who do not share this view, as evidenced above. RobbieG 21:51, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I'm utterly baffled as to how a "plot details" section is any more restrictive than having to stuff spoilers in between spoiler tags. These little "spoiler sections" seem far more restrictive. Plot sections would at least match the look of rest of the 'pedia. AMHR285 (talk) 01:13, 19 July 2006 (UTC) reply
It seems to me you are advocating a general template on the top of all fictional articles, something like "This article discussing a fictional work may contain plot details". I would be perfectly happy to support that. Hiding Talk 11:22, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Robbie, I appreciate your view, but with regard to your POV argument, you seem to be operating under the assumption that there is a concrete, NPOV definition of the term "spoiler" which includes all plot information. I disagree here. Most dictionary definitions I can find refer to a spoiler as a published piece of information that reveals a "surprise or a plot twist" in a work of fiction. I don't believe one can really argue all plot information in any fictional source is intended as a surprise. To borrow your example, the fact that The Little Engine That Could saves the day in the end is obviously not intended to be incredibly surprising: it's printed on the back cover synopsis of almost every edition, and the image from the page in which it saves the day is also the cover image. To presume that all information in a story should be a secret from the reader/viewer at the time they pick up a work of fiction is POV-pushing -- it pushes the POV that anything other than complete ignorance of the story from the time you read a book or see a movie is a less enjoyable, less pure experience -- in other words, that it "spoils" the experience. By contrast, not making any statement about what does or doesn't "spoil" the story is not POV. If I placed a tag in an article saying "plot information follows, but it won't ruin anything for you if you know about it advance" that would be POV, but not saying anything about the subject of what information "spoils" a story is perfectly neutral. -- Lee Bailey (talk) 13:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
At first I thought the idea of coming up with examples of spoilers and working out what is really a spoiler and what isn't was a silly idea. But the more examples I look at, the more I realise that sometimes you really can tell what a spoiler is, though it is difficult to put into words.
I agree that "secret" plot twists (such as "who did it", and the Sixth Sense example) are worthy of spoilers. At the other extreme, you have events that are widely known, such as the fate of the Titanic (I'm talking here about spoilers for the movie, not the historical article, obviously), or the title kind of gives it away "The Little Engine That Could", for example. And inbetween, you have a spectrum of other possibilities.
One thing that did strike me though was that the blurb written on the back of many books gives away more of the plot than Wikipedia does. There are even some books where the author gives away plot details near the beginning, or the foreshadowing of events is an integral part of the style. The examples I am talking about here are The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion by J. R. R. Tolkien. In the prologue to LotR, the basic outcome is given away to the reader. The same happens to varying degrees in The Silmarillion.
In other words, a lot of this should be done on a case-by-case basis, but I would suggest that the onus be on those using spoiler tags to justify them. They have to say why this really is a spoiler.
In the case of the Sixth Sense, the fact that the ending is a spoiler should actually be mentioned in the article. Something in the lead section should say that "The film ends with a surprise twist that casts the film in a new light. A full appreciation of this <insert technical term here> can only be obtained by watching the film without previous knowledge of the ending. Those who have had the ending revealed to them are said to have had the ending spoiled for them."
Then just use variants of the above in articles with major spoilers. Carcharoth 22:41, 18 July 2006 (UTC) reply
But the movie Titanic has a fictional subplot with two characters, so the spoiler tags are still needed, at least when covering what happened to Jack and Rose. United 93 also has spoiler tags as well, specifically for the ending, since it isn't quite true to the 9/11 Commission's story. Hbdragon88 16:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC) reply
...been thinking about this a lot, and I think the optional spoiler warnings off-by-default option is still probably the best compromise position, in terms of potentially being acceptable to the widest number of editors. I've noticed, however, it's got a lot of oppose votes above based on the idea the tags would be pointless if off by default. So, by way of compromise yet again, how would people feel about something like what I've attempted to illustrate here [6] ?
By default, one "warning" message only appears at the top of any article with tagged spoilers. This message gives the reader the option to switch the normal warnings ON for the article without being logged in. In theory, logged-in editors could set a preference somewhere to always show spoiler warnings, never show spoiler warnings, or use the default and go by a case by case basis. I believe this would be technically possible to implement. -- Lee Bailey (talk) 23:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Whether you or I think spoiler tags are an issue of POV or not has nothing to do with whether or not it's non-impartial to place that kind of notice on one page and not another. That's one of those black and white subjects that even value assumptions play no part in. If all articles get it, that's impartial. If all don't, then it isn't. There's no way around that one. POV has nothing to do with the matter in this case. Ryu Kaze 00:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC) reply
(reset indent) Thanks for the explanation. I disagree that there will be no agreement to keep things the way they are now. The poll on keeping the spoiler tags is currently running at 21 in favor vs 7 opposed. That is pretty strong consensus to keep them the way they are. (Assuming things continue as they are, of course). The strongest consensus of all the polls (again assuming things stay on this track) is the consensus to keep the spoilers on by default (22 to 4). That is why I find it puzzling to put energy against that emerging consensus.
It is also why I suggest that a better potential compromise would be to rework the above template to say:
This article contains spoiler warnings. To turn them off, click here.
Advantages to this are:
This is a compromise compared to the current situation, since right now you have no way to turn off the spoiler tags. Johntex\ talk 01:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I generally agree that Lee's idea would reduce the 'unprofessional presentation' complaints of many, but unfortunately it doesn't address my primary concern. Specifially, the problem I have with 'spoiler warnings' is not the tags themselves, but the reshaping of articles caused by the concept. Central facts which would normally be included in the lead are removed to prevent 'spoilage', all 'spoiler' information is concentrated into a single segment in the middle of the article rather than appearing where it would more naturally fit, et cetera. Unfortunately, hiding spoiler tags will not eliminate this problem... there is an inherent difference between writing in an encyclopedic style and writing in a 'spoiler safe' style. On 'the other side' this inherent conflict in goals leads to complaints about 'spoilers outside the spoiler section' or articles not having spoiler warnings (the disagreement over whether Beowulf should have spoiler warnings being a good example).
As such I'd like to suggest another option... same concept of the banner at the top with clickable options and defaults settable somewhere, but instead of turning 'section spoiler tags' on and off it instead turns the spoiler text itself on or off. Write the entire article with no concern whatsoever for spoilers and then go through and mark sections or individual sentences/clauses to not display if spoilers are a concern. By default you get the banner which has an on/off toggle for 'spoiler text' with such defaulted to display just as in Lee's proposal (possibly having a preference setting to default to spoilers hidden). Someone who doesn't care about spoilers at all could set an option to hide the banner itself and thus always see an article written in an encyclopedic organizational style with no banner or tags. We haven't used 'hidden text' for spoilers to date primarily because of concerns about unprofessional appearance and technology issues. I think the first is less of a problem if it is something you have to 'opt into' - and it can help to remove the equally problematic tags. The tech issues could be eliminated entirely with a MediaWiki change, but at present are really only a concern for a handful of old browsers and screen-readers (well under 1% of users)... which would receive the spoiler warning banner, but no option to hide the spoiler text.
I can see where this might still result in different writing style than if there were no spoilers at all... breaking sentences so that a spoiler fact is isolated from non-spoiler facts, having a couple of lines in the 'plot' section which are very generic non-spoiler text (e.g. 'The Empire Strikes Back picks up X years after the events of the first Star Wars film and continues to follow the characters introduced there.') that continues to display when the rest of the plot is hidden, et cetera. However, these would be comparatively minor and could be smoothed out. Everyone would receive a top of the article spoiler warning unless they specifically chose not to, clunky 'spoiler section' tags would never be displayed, and all but a very few (or everyone if a MediaWiki change were made) could choose to read a non-spoiler version of the article. Thoughts? -- CBD 12:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I will shortly write this essay, which states briefly that I believe spoiler tags should be use sparingly and only when revealing the detail so tagged would substantially negatively impact the ability of a reader to enjoy the work so spoiled, and that the spoiler has not entered mainstream culture enough that the vast majority of readers are not already spoiled.
As such, I have, and have been, throughtout this discussion, removing spoiler tags from every article mentioned. I have not been reverted. Hipocrite - «Talk» 13:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Re "that the spoiler has not entered mainstream culture enough that the vast majority of readers are not already spoiled". Hm. How does this affect non-American readers, or those who choose to read/watch an old book or film? -- GunnarRene 14:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC) You're welcome to move this section to the talk page of that essay though. -- GunnarRene 14:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC) reply
(reset indent) Again, choosing to use a spoiler tag or not is no more a POV question that any other editing decision we make, such as whether or not to include a specific image, or a specific reference. Johntex\ talk 19:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Note: Feel free to move this sub-section to where on this page you think it fits.
We have an article called Criticism of the Bible. Some Christians might believe the Bible to be infallible and don't want to see critisism of their faith could avoid that article to keep away from most of the critisism, could they not? Is that an obstacle to learning? The Bible article has critisism spread throughout, but a similarly loyalist Michael Moore fan could keep away from
Michael_Moore#Controversy_and_criticism and be spared most of the critisism. And if you're an
Ann Coulter fan, there's three "Negative" sections that you can avoid learning if you want to. Somebody made a judgement that the section contained something negative about Ann Coulter, and now the course of that information is restricted into those sections, and then restricted from being read by the reader (see censorship section above). And the editors of those articles have the point of view that the information is "critisism" and not support (POV?). In fact,
WP:NPOV itself suggests making those kinds of sections. Section headers do not correlate directly 1-to-1 to spoilers, but it's a good enough approximation for the process of assessing and categorizing information. --
GunnarRene
23:56, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
reply
Another thing: Somebody browsing Category:Christianity can avoid the Criticism of Christianity article, and with machine assisted filtering, they could block all articles in the subcategory Category:Biblical criticism. There goes the critical people and their theories. Assesment. Classification. Censorship or Avoidance by reader. -- GunnarRene 00:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I have no intention of creating the above essay, but it makes for a good section break. Judging from the straw poll above, it looks like most people (so far) are in favor of spoiler tags being shonw by default. Therefore, I think we should put some energy into systems that would keep the spoiler tags on by default. I have made one suggestion that I will make again here to kick off the new section:
I think this has several advantages:
I look forward to your thoughts. Johntex\ talk 19:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Johntex, I realize that most people stated they were against a "spoiler-warnings-off-by default" system in the poll above. Reading the responses listed in that poll, though, the impression I got was that many of the editors who voted against the idea disliked it because they thought it meant that people would be at risk of seeing spoiler information until they turned them off. The concern that keeps being brought up is that 1) people won't know that there's an option to turn warnings on, and will see spoilers or 2) the system will be too hard for people to figure out. I proposed this compromise as a way of demonstrating that it's possible to have spoiler off by default and to have adequate warning for those who want to see them. I'm certainly not trying to go against any majority, but I agree with what Robbie and Ryu have said already: the compromise you have promposed doesn't actually address the issue that those who are opposed to the warnings have. My understanding of this is that most people in the anti-warning camp have expressed ideological opposition to having these warnings "officially" exist by default in Wikipedia, while most of the pro-spolier-warning editors I've seen seem to be concerned mostly with preserving the practical purpose of these tags. Either way, there's a mild inconvenience to whichever side winds up off-by-default, but my point is, the off-by-default system seems to satisfy everyone except for that unavoidable inconvenience; the on-by-default system only satisfies one side. -- (Lee) Bailey (talk) 22:01, 20 July 2006 (UTC) reply
.spoiler{ display: none; }
I think we have to bear in mind that we don't currently tag articles which contain porn, do we? We make sure such images are appropriate to the content and that's about all, we let the general disclaimer handle the rest. I think the same approach should be used here. If people coming to articles on porn are clear on what to expect, then people coming to articles on fiction are too. Hiding Talk 11:00, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply
For all these reasons, I think the comparison is faulty and that nothing in this comparison lends any support for the idea of hiding or eliminating spoiler tags. Johntex\ talk 19:57, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Trying to draw this into something we might be likely to all agree on:
Any thoughts, objections, changes? Hiding Talk 12:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Thanks for this suggestion, here are my views on each point:
Best, Johntex\ talk 16:40, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I never thought it would happen, but I've finally found a use of the spoiler warning that baffles even me - "it's a small world". What? It's a ride (and a particularly irritating and tacky one at that!), it doesn't need a spoiler warning because it has no real plot. I'm not going to remove the notice as that would be pretty much hypocrisy coming from me, but I expect somebody else will. I've found new sympathy for those who think spoiler warnings should be decided on a case-by-case basis. RobbieG 08:15, 22 July 2006 (UTC) reply
It's all very well arguing that older works don't need spoilers, but how many people here have actually read the Iliad? What about King Lear? Moby Dick? Beowolf? A Tale of Two Cities? The Canterbury Tales? I'll bet there are people here who have never even seen King Kong (and I'd win that bet. I've never seen it!). In fact, I haven't seen or read any of the above, but there's nothing to say I won't. I watch old films, after all. I've read A Christmas Carol and Bleak House and Through the Looking-Glass, and I've seen A Midsummer Night's Dream and Twelfth Night. It's perfectly possible to spoil an old story for somebody. I'm not saying we should plaster spoiler warnings all over (there have got to be other solutions), but I think that should be taken into account. RobbieG 12:11, 23 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Your claim may be true of Shakespeare, and perhaps also therefore Chaucer and Homer, but Victorian English was very similar to the English of today. Both the Dickens novels I've read worked very well as novels. Bleak House was full of plot twists. Anyway, J.R.R. Tolkein considered Beowolf to be just as good a saga nowadays as it was when first penned, as did a number of students to whom he read it. As for popular culture, I've lived my life this long without finding out the end of Moby Dick. All I know about it is that there is a character named Ishmael and a captain who's fanatically obsessed with killing a particular whale. Also, popular culture doesn't tell you everything; I know how King Kong ends, but I don't know anything else about it. RobbieG 13:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC) reply
No, that's fair enough, but we are supposed to show a NPOV. Actually, I'd be perfectly content if we all just went away and carried on using spoiler warnings as before, deleting ones we find unnecessary and adding those we think are required. Wikipedia is self-policing, after all. I only got involved in this debate as I'd heard a rumour that they were planning to delete spoiler warnings completely, and I can't allow that to happen. RobbieG 14:22, 23 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Sorry, but what are you saying? I'm afraid I don't understand. Are you in favour of spoiler warnings or against them? If you're saying that the presence of spoiler warnings is somehow making the site less encyclopaedic, then can you please tell me a defintion of encyclopaedic? You see, there doesn't seem to be one. RobbieG 07:34, 25 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Well, things have started to die down in this debate, so it might be a good time to reflect on where we're at so far.
I think it's pretty clear that a straight deletion of spoiler tags or spoiler notification won't be in the near future. If one where to take the feedback under the proposed solutions as a poll, then keeping the tags would win. However, even as a pro-tag editor I'm not very content with just that. Before coming to any "conclusion" I think it might be a good idea for pro-tag editors and those with guideline concerns to come up with guideline revisions. Then come back to the main discussion and present the revisions and see if this addresses additional concerns.
There are things, such as now spoilers might impact where people put information (inside the "box"), handling classic fiction, people mistaking the guideline as policy, etc, that could easily be addressed without total spoiler tag removal. A lot of arguments have been made on both sides, and now it's time to put our money where our mouthes are. Just because spoiler tags will be kept doesn't mean that we can't improve on the situation or address some of the issues brought up. -- Ned Scott 03:19, 26 July 2006 (UTC) reply
First, I have to say, that in a discussion about spoilers, due to the examples used, there is a spoiler warning at the top of the page : )
I strongly think we need to retain "some" warning, especially due to overseas usage. (Or even timezone differential.) And I don't think we should differentiate classical works from modern works in spoilerage, to do so would be to make a judgement (POV) about the works themselves, which I wouldn't think we would want to do here.
In addition, something to think about in the case of publication/broadcast/etc... There is a difference between a spoiler due to the official distibution, leaked information prior to the distribution, and advertisements prior to the distribution.
And I agree that spoilers aren't for talk pages (since one has to discuss them "somewhere" : )
That said, I also agree that an update of the warning(s) might be appropriate.
I think we should retain the word spoiler in the template. It's widely used on the internet, which makes it a useful clarion. And I think it's good as a "guideline".
I like the idea of just dropping "and/or ending" from each spoiler warning (since the ending is technically a plot detail)?
Also, while I think we need some spoilers for things that are not fictional works (Dancing with the Stars, for example), the following or something similar likely works well enough:
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- Jc37 17:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC) reply
OK, here's my rough proposal:
This would reduce the use of spoiler tags to a bare minimum without outlawing their use and without increasing the likelihood of readers having works spoiled. -- Daduzi talk 02:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC) reply
To help avoid groupthink and get some fresh ideas on how to approach updating the guidelines, I was thinking that maybe we should approach some of the fictional WikiProjects. Many projects incorporate WP:SPOILER into their own guidelines and suggestions, and it would be interesting to see what independently (or semi-independently) groups come up with. Not to say that those of us who aren't apart of those projects shouldn't come up with ideas. We should still continue conversation here (here being somewhere in the Wikipedia talk:Spoiler warning pages or sub pages, since this one is so long we might want to sprout out another page or go to the main talk page).
For example, Wikipedia:WikiProject Stargate uses a lot of spoiler tags with specific notices to what season they spoil, and have even included "spoiler free" versions of their episode lists (they're actually just the lists without summaries at all, just air dates, episode numbers, and titles).
I'd like to hear from some of the smaller show specific Projects as well as the larger ones, like Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga. Ask all these groups to start a discussion about how they and their editors typically use spoilers and what they think could be done to improve their usage, then take those responses and put them back here.
-- Ned Scott 05:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Yes Hipocrite, I am a member of the Stargate project and I will tell you first hand that they are very dedicated to creating an honest encyclopedic Stargate section so I would appreciate you not calling our validity into question. The reason we adopted such extreme spoiler regulations was because many countries have not aired certain episodes or seasons due to a delay in broadcasting. So we list out what section has spoilers and for what season (in other words your "slippery slope" argument, which is fallacious by the way, is irrelevent since most shows do not suffer this type of delay and thus would only need to list that an article contains spoilers and the reader would know what it meant). For example, a certain ship is debuted in an early season that takes place in a battle in the current and preceding season. Someone browsing the article on the ship, which contains only spoilers for the earlier season, would find a link to the article pertaining to the battle in which the ship played a role. If the user followed that link he would immediately see a spoiler warning for seasons 9 and 10 and know that he/she would not want to read that article. Without those tags they would not know, thinking the battle had already taken place according to the episodes they had seen and they had merely forgotten or not known the official name. Spoiler tags are quite relevent to this encyclopedia and should be used wherever a community consensus deems them necessary in my opinion. Konman72 11:59, 28 July 2006 (UTC) reply
I think that, given the discussion so far, the consensus has been that spoiler tags are to be kept, but there need to be guidelines or standards in place to better control them. One concern I've seen repeated is that there isn't consistency, and that we have warnings on things (such as the Three Billy Goats Gruff (whether we do or not, just an example) that shouldn't require such. Perhaps we can find some common ground and build from there? For example, anything that has yet to be published/aired but gives away important/signifigant plot information qualifies as a spoiler? Is that something everyone could agree on (assuming spoiler tags are here to stay) if it were worded better? Darquis 06:25, 28 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Should we move to the main talk page ( Wikipedia talk:Spoiler warning) to discuss the guidelines, make a new sub page, or continue here? I'm not saying we should close the RfC yet, as people still seem to be coming in with comments, but.. this page is already very large, and we'll be addressing specific guideline issues instead of the over-all concept of a spoiler tag. I think it would be wise to organize our discussion for the guidelines off this page, maybe with an occasional "check-in" or something as long as the RfC is still going. Thoughts? -- Ned Scott 13:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I have to say, I think The Crying Game and Empire are prime examples of what's wrong with the spoiler policy. It seems to me idiotic and pointless to write any kind of overview of either film without taking the twist into immediate account. The major advance of Empire is the addition of the Skywalker legacy and the tragedy of Darth Vader. The major interest of The Crying Game is its portrayal of gender. Without those two things being immediately put up front, anything you say about the films is so massively incomplete as to be not worth saying. Phil Sandifer 20:35, 2 August 2006 (UTC) reply
The header's just there because I noticed how long this page is getting; please ignore it, it's just for the convenience of Firefox and Google Toolbar users.
None of those, with the possible exception of hyperlinks, are stylistic issues, though. And in the case of NPOV, it's hardly an invention of Wikipedia. Again, you're arguing for the inclusion of a blatant neologism that appears, in the definition you're using it, in no major dictionary that anyone has found, and arguing for its use in a way that no comparable reference work uses it. This is not good, and not the sort of revolution that Wikipedia should be engaged in. We're radical in our means of construction, progressive in our methods of formatting, and conservative in our standards of acceptability. Phil Sandifer 19:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC) reply
Ok guys, shut up already. I'm sorry for being rude, but both of you already know how each other feels about this, and it's obvious no one is going to change the other persons view with comments like these. This is just leading us to get mad at each other and not solving anything. -- Ned Scott 01:51, 5 August 2006 (UTC) reply
Wikipedia talk:Spoiler warning/guidelines
Knock yourselves out, and remember, comments on this page are not about deleting spoilers or rejecting them. Keep those comments on this talk page. Since I don't think the guidelines will be a heated debate, I haven't really structured anything like we've done here. So.. yeah.. there we have it. -- Ned Scott 22:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC) reply
Noting new discussion for those who still have this on their watchlists: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Spoiler warning. -- Ned Scott 04:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC) reply