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What about reasoning why those "Unacceptable alternatives" are unacceptable??? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.165.250.10 ( talk) 19:18, 5 May 2007 (UTC).
To save this page from MFD, I suggest the German spoiler policy (this is a translation by me and babelfish, with adaptations by me):
- David Gerard 22:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
The German wording seems okay to me. -- Tony Sidaway 03:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Now the point is that we now have a proposed new version to discuss:
Whoever is edit warring please calm down and stop it. Whatever we end up deciding on will be the result of consensus. -- Tony Sidaway 03:29, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I believe that the appropriate measure is to tag this page as historical. Even though it was prematurely closed, the MFD attracted substantial comment, and the evidence is strong that a consensus of users either wanted to delete the page entirely, or else deprecate it as historical. I think there is obviously no consensus for keeping the page the way that it is, as the MFD discussion indicates. A strong majority of users are dissatisfied with current spoiler policy. Crotalus horridus 03:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, we should continue the discussion here. -- Tony Sidaway 03:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I find it ridiculous that the MfD was closed. Hate to say it, but the MfD was an infinitely better method of handling the situation. First, it's more clearly advertised then a conversation on a talkpage. Second, it gains the appeal of a wider range of editors by displaying it in multiple ways. Third, it gauges consensus easily. Just because it violated protocol doesn't mean common sense should be used. IAR really needs to be renamed to "Use Common Sense". I'm confident those numerous "delete" !votes will not be drowned out so easily. — Deckill er 03:32, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
That not everyone is on the same talk page... -- Ned Scott 03:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}}
Please could someone remove the MFD tag because that discussion has been closed as inappropriate for discussion of a guideline, and moved to Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Policies/Wikipedia:Spoiler warning. Perhaps the tag should be replaced by a note that discussion of the guideline is continuing on that moved page. -- Tony Sidaway 13:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
How will we notify the people reading the pages with spoiler templates? 168.229.22.213 14:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
The major problem, not just with this guideline, but with {{ spoiler}} tag itself, and the reason why it keeps getting supporters even though it's flatly unencyclopedic and goes against most of our other policies on content warnings, comes, I think down to the first edit, which inadvertently says why spoiler warnings are bad policy that keeps surviving. From the very first edit:
This is, in a nutshell, the problem with spoiler warnings and the reason people keep insisting on adding them. Spoiler warnings have no place in an encyclopedia; but people are simply used to seeing them on message boards, in internet discussion forums, on Usenet... There are many compelling reasons for including spoiler warnings on message boards, but none of these have anything to do with making an accurate, professional encyclopedia. Worrying about how an article will affect someone's enjoyment of a book or movie is, basically, unencyclopedic; the logical extension of spoiler warnings would be to say that we can't report critical opinions of books and movies, even when widespread or noteworthy, because it might make it harder for people to enjoy them. Likewise, netiquette does not apply to Wikipedia content, and, indeed, a concerted effort should be made to avoid having netiquette and other internet-biased views influence article space. I think that this policy should be simple, straight, and to the point: "Spoiler warnings are always unapproprate for an encyclopedia, and should not be used in articles." -- Aquillion 18:32, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Several editors are systemically removing spoiler warnings -- from everywhere as far as I can tell. At least one explicitly declared that he does not care about that the use of the spoiler tag is disputed. (See Talk:A Wizard of Earthsea#Spoiler warning.)
This sort of end-run around the policy does not bode well for the end results of the dispute, if they are not reined in. Goldfritha 00:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Whoever the editors are who are simply deleting spoiler warning because 'they can' - I would ask them to stop and discuss these edits on the pages themselves. Deciding something quickly (between only a few editors) on this page and then surfing thru WP and making changes to pages these editors harldy care about is rather rude and a bit presumptious. I am another voice asking these editors to stop. I am certainly not part of their hastily assembled "concensus" Smatprt 03:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Please point out the consensus leading to the addition of the section "Where spoilers may be inappropriate". -- 87.189.124.195
I think spoiler warnings are great! They help you avoid information which might end up "spoiling" your enojyment of a piece of work, such as a movie, viedeo game, etc. (mainly involving the plot) Cause in the end, the way you find that piece of information might be the an exciting part of the work. I hope any wikipedia editors don't end up removing spoiler warnings cause they really do work! Plus, who gets affected if they just there, right? So just forget about the whole thing and leave them spoilers alone. Da_PipinFonz
Please remove WP:SW from shortcuts as it redirects the the Star Wars WikiProject. - Patricknoddy TALK (reply here)| HISTORY 20:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
"They are also generally inappropriate in respect of factual works, classic works of fiction (including films), or subjects where plot twists have been the subject of considerable external debate."
What makes a work of fiction a "classic work of fiction"? As a first approximation, does it refer to any work of fiction whose copyright has expired? -- Damian Yerrick ( talk | stalk) 20:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I've marked this as rejected. Whilst its merits as a guideline are obviously disputed - some people think it ought to be a guideline - it is obvious that it does not have a consensus in support in its current form - so it is quite clear that it is rejected (for now anyway). Does anyone seriously wish to argue that there IS a consensus in support of this.-- Docg 08:51, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Taken from Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Policies/Wikipedia:Spoiler warning#Time to close this - results are obvious, Tony Sidaway's adaptation of the German policy, several of the comments from the RFC, and a few of my own ideas. -- Ned Scott 01:29, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
My problem is with "Spoiler warnings should never be used on ancient texts, literary classics, classic films, or works whose plot is 'common knowledge'." Can you confirm that the plot os all of Shakespeare's plays are "common knowledge"? For example, without looking it up, how many editors of this page can assure me that they know the plot twist at the end of "Timon of Athens" ? Smatprt 03:56, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Seems like a good start. Some commentary on a few lines:
Why shouldn't it be used if the spoiler is integral to understanding the work? I think I see what you're getting at here- if the only thing something is famous for is inherently tied up in "spoilerness," then go ahead and put that in the lead, which should not have spoiler tags. But if a spoiler is integral to understanding the work and in most of the article? Well, tag the first section of the article with the spoiler warning, then. That won't compromise the article structure, but it will offer fair warning. I'd tentatively suggest just chopping out the first half of that sentence, although perhaps there's a better phrasing.
I would not support this line. While I'm not in favor of spoiler warnings for Shakespeare and other classics, I'd stretch the definition of "contemporary" considerably farther. Not sure what a good phrasing is, but roughly "one lifetime" seems about right. King Kong is fair game; something from the 80's, however, is quite likely to still be experienced afresh. The 60's are a grey area, although I'd lean away from spoiler warnings. (Also, Snape kills Dumbledore is absolutely worthy of a spoiler warning — if it's mentioned outside the "plot" section for some reason. The same is true of all your other examples - I don't think they're nearly as widely known as something which has entered the language itself, like, say, Jekyll & Hyde.)
"Reasonable" is fuzzy and kind of circularly defines itself. I'd suggest something like "Spoilers are only rarely appropriate for the lead, but may be reasonable in cases where the topic is inextricably tied to such information."
Also, there should probably be a line in there about not twisting the article structure for the sake of spoilers. I'd propose something like:
SnowFire 05:02, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Should we add a sentence with an analogy comparing such tags to fair use images, i.e. use them only when absolutely required, because in most cases, and especially classical works (compare with fair use images and living people), they aren't necessary? Johnleemk | Talk 06:09, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I strongly object to "Such tags should only be used once in an article." Consider articels such as Aubrey-Maturin series where a whole series of works is discussed in a number of mini-articles. Spoilers can exist in multiple sub-sections of such articles. DES (talk) 09:53, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
This draft exemplifies the problem on the RfC discussion. The following text has appeared only recently in the existing spoiler warning (I realise it's not new to this draft), clearly placed there by the "anti" element:
This is a false description of what such articles should do (per the MoS: WP:WAF). It foregrounds in-universe plot summaries (bad) and relegates the primary purpose of the article (giving the work's place in the overall field) to secondary status. It is clear from WP:WAF that a good article about a work of fiction need not include a "full" description of the plot, whatever that means. If the work is of minor notability it need not include any details of the plot.
We also have the standard kow-tow to traditional encyclopedias:
Right now, Wikipedia is THE encyclopedia (I speak as an academic). It is as accurate as any general-purpose encyclopedia, far more detailed, and far more accessible. Moreover, it is the only useful and serious encyclopedia designed for on-line reading, where spoiler warnings are particularly useful. PaddyLeahy 10:46, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Ned's proposal, mixed with Phil's, looks not insane so far.
I'm still taking lots of inappropriate spoilers out to be shot, and I'm seeing that ... most are sticking that way. And those reverting them are tending to get themselves blocked for 3RR, i.e. are hotheads anyway. This suggests to me that the actual wiki-wide consensus either agrees with me or doesn't disagree. As such, I'd suggest leaving finalising this for a few days to see if complaints flood in from actual aggrieved readers (the people this is supposedly for) about spoilers.
(I don't hate spoilers. I've even added them myself. It's just almost all of them at present are redundant or ridiculous.) - David Gerard 15:16, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Somehow, I don't think the section on "Problems with spoiler warnings" is complete without first explain how the use of spoiler warnings have been abused in the past. So here is my attempt at an introduction to:
Perhaps someone can reword it a bit or take the basic idea and come up with their own introduction. -- Farix ( Talk) 17:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Adding 'what is a spoiler' - David Gerard 17:16, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I've removed mention of this entirely. It is impossible to do even the weakest article on a magic trick without revealing its workings. Sawing a woman in half is a prime example of an article that is just dreadful because it's unwilling to reveal the method of the trick until the very end of the article, leaving it with an entire history section that leaves out key parts of the history like how the trick was completed at various times in its history. The same, it seems to me, can safely be said of any magic trick of sufficient notability to have an article - the history of the trick is its methods, and thus there is no article without revealing the secret constantly. Puzzles seem to me essentially similar - no meaningful analysis of them can take place without the solution being revealed. Phil Sandifer 17:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I've added "about a fictional work" or words to that effect to various sections that say removing a spoiler is wrong. There are several cases where plot spoilers have been added to unrelated works and then marked with a spoiler warning, and in some cases the addition of the spoiler was really not relevant to the subject at all. For instance the Roger Bacon article has something about a Bacon character in a video game. This says:
This gives the game away to some readers, but obviously it's of at best very tangential relevance to Bacon so the whole thing, or at least the spoiler itself, could be removed from the article and the article would most likely be all the better for that. A spoiler tag formerly on that article, on account of that plot spoiler, has recently been removed.
So I have added this:
Perhaps this is over-egging the pudding, though. Please edit mercilessly. -- Tony Sidaway 17:44, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Currently, I have noticed that in the Grim Tuesday Article, lines from the spoiler formatting are impeding on pictures. This could just be my computer, but if something can be done...? 86.132.249.228 18:04, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
As much as we could argue about this 'till kingdom come, it appears that (finally) we're getting somewhere with the prop'd guideline. Can we just do a show of hands to see if the proposal has support/needs tweaking? David Fuchs ( talk / frog blast the vent core!) 18:28, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
PaddyLeahy 19:46, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Since the guideline is, in its current form, coming down against spoilers, it seems beside the point to rehash the pro-spoiler warning arguments. The purpose of that section, as I see it, is to offer an explanation for the logic of the guideline, which is important so that people, when directed to the guideline, do not see it as arbitrary. To rehash the debate implicitly promotes further fighting over spoiler warnings. If any of the counter-arguments listed sincerely have a consensus behind them, the guideline should be adjusted to fit them. Otherwise, they probably don't belong. Phil Sandifer 19:54, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
In mid to late 2006, a spoiler template before the fact that Snape Kills Dumbledore in Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince would be warranted. Due to the wide dissemination of this information, however, a spoiler tag would not currently be appropriate. The same reasoning can be used for major spoilers in Ender's Game, The Usual Suspects, and The Sixth Sense.
This is a distraction to the actual argument. See the reasoning as to why people might not feel too keen about complaining, especially when they might be derided as whiners for doing so.
Arcayne
(cast a spell)
00:07, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
As well, might I ask you to cite both the basis of your claim of 45,000 spoiler-tagged articles as well as your reference for zero "documented reader complaints"?
Arcayne
(cast a spell)
00:19, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
It occurs to me that it would be easier to better calibrate where this guideline supports and discourages spoiler warnings if we could actually turn to the readers. Would the pro-warning people be so kind as to provide, briefly, any accounts they are aware of where people have complained because their enjoyment of a work was actually diminished by a spoiler revealed in Wikipedia? Not a case where you think someone's enjoyment might be, or where you personally learned a detail about a movie that you were maybe kinda going to see one day. I'm talking about cases where somebody looked up Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince while they were still reading it, learned that Snape killed Dumbledore, and were upset to learn this information. If we can have a sense of who is actually upset and hurt by spoilers, it's a lot easier to write an appropriate guideline. Phil Sandifer 22:10, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Here is a vote for keeping spoiler tags. I had "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince" spoiled for me wile reading it.. but that spoiler came on a message board about another film (someone making a snotty comment about spoilers in general dropped that bomb). I think this "all you people who have been spoiled by Wikipedia spoilers step up so we can gage it" is a specious argument. So lets see... we need to find people who read Wikipedia, know what a spoiler is, read a spoiler, are annoyed by a spoiler, read Discussion pages, and have the free time and inclination to post on a Discussion page that they were spoiled. That sample is so self-selecting as to be non-existent. Spoilers are annoying no matter where you read them. Courtesy dictates that you warn about them at least. I have seen no guidelines one Wikipedia banning courtesy. Halfblue 00:36, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I think the misapplication of the spoiler tag is part of the problem as well. There should be tags for films (both relatively current and those which rely upon the element of surprise for effectiveness) as well as literature utilizing similar methods of surprise. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 23:44, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
This would be better as a talk page note, where people can still understand the background of this debate without having to read archives, but doesn't clutter the actual guideline. -- Ned Scott 22:43, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
The talk page notice would work for the list of arguments bit, but at least the paragraoh about policies on WikiProjects and other Wikipedias should probably stay on the main page. -- tjstrf talk 23:02, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
People write essays about everything on Wikipedia, and sometimes links to these essays are appended at the end of guideline or policy pages. I think that could be appropriate here, too. Shanes 23:18, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I reiterate that having a lengthy section of "reasons people dislike this guideline" is silly. If any of these viewpoints actually have consensus, they are reasons to alter the guideline. If (as I suspect) they do not actually have consensus so much as a few dogged adherents, they belong at Wikipedia:Why spoiler warnings are good, which should be tagged as essay. To put them in the guideline page they oppose falsely elevates them, and excessively encourages ignoring the guideline. Furthermore, many of the reasons in there currently are just... bad. People might not speak up about movies being spoiled? We should include spoiler warnings when we don't include any other disclaimers? Calling these arguments a reach is generous. Phil Sandifer 02:37, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
This is getting ridicules to the point that I've removed the entire section. The guideline should not be rehashing the debate where one side tries to "out point" the other. If you wish to make a point for or against spoiler warnings, it should be done here on the talk page or at the RfC. -- Farix ( Talk) 05:56, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
This is severely disappointing: The "No disclaimer templates" policy page had a specific exception for allowing spoiler tags. It was removed because of the pressure to change spoiler policy here. The lack of the exception is now being used in the arguments here for pressure to change spoiler policy. Am I the only one who sees a problem with this? -- Kizor 04:36, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
If the "anti" element are seriously trying to write a guideline which allows use of spoilers in a way which minimizes distortion of article structure, they should welcome the use of {{Endspoiler}}. Without this tag, editors are driven to place spoiler material at the end of the article, after all the information they would like to be seen by readers who don't want to see the spoiler (e.g. those contemplating reading/viewing the work in question). By the same token, the advice (on the template page) not to use {{Endspoiler}} at the end of sections should be removed. PaddyLeahy 10:33, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Uh, I'll just echo what Paddy has said. I'm not in favor of spoiler warnings causing an article's structure to warp, and endspoiler will help that task if anything. SnowFire 22:03, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
David Gerard has removed my deletion of the stipulation that "Plot" sections should not be marked with spoiler tags, labelling it "silly". But this is the heart of the argument. This line, which of course is the principle new item added in this draft, justifies David's (and a few other editors) precipitate action in deleting many hundreds of spoiler warnings. I have given two reasons for resisting this proscription, which have not been satisfactorially answered by the anti element:
For instance, up until I would guess about 1700 most works of fiction were based on stock plots which the writer expected the audience to know. Therefore knowledge of the plot can hardly be described as a spoiler (so the line on the tag "Plot and/or ending details follow" misses the point... the current project page gives a much better definition of spoiler). Even today, many fictions do not rely on a surprise ending or plot twists but get their impact from the depth of characterisation etc. And many plot summaries on wikipedia do not reveal crucial plot twists. Is any of this disputed?
F y dn't blv m why nt rmv ll vwls frm wkpd—t's wll knwn tht nglsh txt cn b rd wtht thm. Or why not remove the lead section since it is supposedly a redundant summary of the rest of the article? Re-inforcing the message that Plot sections etc do indeed give away crucial elements (in specific cases) is one of the main points of spoiler warnings. PaddyLeahy 10:55, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
OK, we have apparently zero complaints from readers about spoilers from before Phil and I started asking for such complaints.
So I went looking for general public opinions on spoilers in Wikipedia. Since the Internet public in general complain chronically about any and every aspect of our content.
Quickly hitting blogsearch.google.com with "Wikipedia spoiler", I didn't get a lot. Or indeed any. I did find an expectation of full detail in Wikipedia, e.g. [1], [2], [3], [4] (where he spoils 300 for himself by reading Leonidas), [5], [6] (expects spoilers, doesn't sound entirely pleased by this), [7] (uses Wikipedia as source for a spoiler), [8] ("Spoiler warnings are the scourge of modern civilisation"), [9], [10], [11] ... - David Gerard 11:07, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
There's the fact that we HAD our spoilers clearly marked. Please check the German-speaking part. -- Kizor 16:56, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I like this write up. I think it accurately represents the consensus that has developed. The only part I'm not sure about is:
Articles about fictional characters, objects or places can be expected to be substantially made up of elements of the story in question and should not need spoiler warnings.
I'm not sure I agree. There are three types of information on fictional characters, etc. There is real-world information (who played them, who created them, etc), there is background information (who the character is, basically stuff that happens before the story starts and isn't secret) and there are the events that took place in the fictional work involving them. Only the last one involves spoilers. I think it can make sense in certain articles to include spoiler warnings before bits of information fitting into the 3rd category. Quite often those bits of information will fall into a "Plot Summary" type section, so wouldn't need a warning, but that's already mentioned in a different bullet point.
-- Tango 16:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Can we have a coherent definition of this bias-magnet? Despite all the thundering denunciations of the 'everyforum.com' mentality, most of the examples (Star Wars, Harry Potter, etc) suggested as 'known to everyone' are really only known to members of everyforum. Are the works of Barbara Taylor Bradford or Jacqueline Wilson (both massive authors) 'common knowledge'?-- Nydas (Talk) 17:02, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
The project page currently states:
"Spoiler" isn't a neologism. The American Heritage dictionary (4th ed, 2006) defines it thus:
spoil·er n. [...] 5. A published piece of information that divulges a surprise, such as a plot twist in a movie. [13]
Compact Oxford has the definition "a news story published with the intention of reducing the impact of a related item published in a rival paper" [14] which is clearly a very closely related definition.
May I suggest removing this sentence and finding a different reason why people don't want to include them to elevate up to the top section? JulesH 19:00, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
"In six years, there are zero documented reader (as opposed to editor) complaints about a lack of spoilers in Wikipedia, when readers famously complain at length about every other aspect of Wikipedia's content."
Well I'ld like to destroy this argument right now. Try reading Talk:Shadow_of_the_Colossus. You'll find at least two. On top of that, the argument is fundamentally flawed seeing as there ARE spoiler tags. What do you expect? Why would people complain when there are already plenty of spoiler tags on most pages where spoilers occur? Ziiv 20:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
To simplify how many templates we have, I've proposed this change to {{ spoiler}}. -- Ned Scott 21:14, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
The use of spoiler warnings is controversial amongst Wikipedians. Key arguments against are:
Key arguments for are:
Here's a couple more.
Ken Arromdee 15:07, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
This page is well-written and gives reasonable restrictions to limit the proliferation of spoiler tags. >Radiant< 10:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
"Spoiler warnings are inappropriate in articles discussing classical works of literature, poetry, film, theatre, and other fields. In grey areas, editors placing spoiler templates should attempt to justify this on the individual article's talk page and be ready to defend them in discussion."
What exactly constitues a "classic work"? Sabre Knight 12:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
How does a spoiler warning on a classic work (British,Irish,American etc that's the problem defining a classic work ) stop you learning about any classic .You either decide to go off and read it or decide it doesn't matter if you are spoiled and read the article .Either way you learn about the classic . Garda40 19:27, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
And you just illustrated the problem of one person's classic that another doesn't know anything. Cliff notes aren't called by that name here so asking people for them would get a blank stare in most bookshops . Garda40 21:10, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
"Spoiler warnings may be used in articles whose primary subject is fictional where the editors proposing them can provide a compelling and justifiable reason to insert one. Such reasons should show that knowledge of the spoiler would likely substantially diminish many readers' enjoyment of the work."
This statement is extremely silly! How can we give reasons why people would enjoy a work less, if, say, they knew in advance who dies at the end of the sixth Harry Potter? Wouldn't such a thing break WP:OR? To me this seems like an underhanded way to prevent spoiler tags from being used legitimately. Either we use {{ spoiler}} or we don't. No sitting on the fence. -- Temporarily Insane ( talk) 21:25, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Actually, that appears to be the matter of some debate. Who is actually suggesting the removal of all spoilers, following the stated example of the German-L wiki? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 07:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
At the moment, the order makes little sense. It would be better, in my opinion, to say when to use spoiler templates before saying when not to use them. Can I swap the positions of those two sections? -- h2g2bob ( talk) 00:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
"Spoiler tags are redundant when used in ==Plot== or other sections that are clearly going to discuss the plot" - not if there are a "plot introduction" section (intended to be spoiler free) and a "Plot summary" which is for a fuller plot treatment 'likely' to contain spoilers. How else are we to indicate to the reader that the first is ok to read when wanting to avoid spoilers.
Also this rolling juggernaut of editing that is happen ahead of agreement on guidlines is huge concerning. Removing tag is "so" easy with tools like AWB. There are hugely difficult to put back, they represent months on work and effort. Another way to hacking off hardworking and responsible editors who are trying to do their best. Oh what the heck shall I just go and hang my head in my hands. 07:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with the idea that "Plot" sections should not contain spoiler warnings (as the current text of the proposed guideline stipulates). Plot information does not always act as a spoiler, inasmuch as it does not disclose the ending or other details. Often a part of the section is a spoiler and another is not. When reading about a work that you haven't read/watched etc., you will normally want to: 1. have some general info about its plot so as to know whether you want to read/watch it; 2. avoid spoilers so as not to have your reading/watching spoiled. So it is helpful to indicate where the spoilers begin - otherwise the reader has to guess for himself which part of it to read and the articles become much less useful.
An example is the article Ghost World (film) about which I'm engaged in an edit conflict right now. The first sentence in the "Plot" section is "The story focuses on the relationship of two teenage friends, Enid (Thora Birch) and Rebecca (Scarlett Johansson), who are outside of the normal high school social order in an unnamed suburb, often assumed to be in or around Los Angeles, where much of the movie was shot." This is rather general and is not a spoiler; indeed it is very likely that a future viewer would like to know it. That's why the tag was placed after it and before everything else. -- 91.148.159.4 13:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
This section is also unacceptable. Consider Valen, for instance, where the character's identity is a major spoiler, and is only revealed after some time, but it's possible to say things about him without revealing the spoiler. Or consider a murder mystery where a character is the killer. It seems reasonable to have a spoiler warning before the part saying that the person is the killer. Ken Arromdee 15:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Instead of outright remove spoilers, why don't we just add an option to turn them on or off globally? CDClock 17:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
As a "suck it and see" test, I've applied the "guideline" tag to this page. There will be changes, even major ones, but I think we've got the basic shape of it now. Please revert and raise objections (to the current content,not my bold, reversible act) if you think it's unsound and unsustainable (rather than just flawed) in its current form. -- Tony Sidaway 23:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I suspect we should add a mention to the effect of "no spoiler warnings in leads," simply because spoiler warning tags, in their current appearance, break the visual flow of a lead, giving the false impression that a lead ends earlier than it does. The Crying Game in its current form is a good example of this - in terms of visual look the box cutting through the lead effectively creates a mini-lead that is incomplete. This is worsened by the fact that the box most resembles the contents box in its visual identity, which is the cue that the lead has ended. (Obviously nobody is going to be stupid enough to mistake a spoiler warning for a ToC, but the visual cue of "bracketed box" remains strong in this case, and suggests an end to the lead. The result, in any case, is to de-emphasize the later part of the lead.) Perhaps this could be solved with a new, smaller spoiler template that doesn't have the box look, or by moving the spoiler template to the beginning of the article so it doesn't bisect the lead. In either case, though, the current implementation is a problem. Phil Sandifer 03:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
There is a very famous case like this in Jára Cimrman. He is a fictional person, but also a sort of national hero (every Czech knows that meme). There was a big discussion on Czech Wikipedia if to ever mention that he was fictional (because the basic point is the mystification that he is real). Of course, the introduction must mention that he is fictional, but it takes the magic of mystification away. I am not sure if it is possible write about him at all without spoiler warning in the beginning (if you don't oppose spoiler warnings in principle). PS - please do not remove the tag in that article, unless you really know well this Czech meme, you will sure break a long established consensus by doing that. Samohyl Jan 19:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
The further discussion has been moved to Talk:Jára Cimrman.
In episodic works, is it appropriate to include information that gives away critical plot or character information from future episodes? I can see the reasoning behind much of WP:SW, but seems to allow for the inclusion of such information, which, I would argue, a reasonable reader should expect not to be present. Someone reading an article about the first episode of a 6 year TV series shouldn't have to worry that he might encounter information about the last episode, should he? — Aldaron • T/ C 15:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Why not? Because many (most?) readers of such articles are "reading along" with their viewing. We can, of course, "train" such people to expect such information; but their only response can then be not to read it at all. I can't see what the value of "containing a lot of information" is going to be if people aren't going to read it. — Aldaron • T/ C 15:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Here is an example of the sort of thing that seems inappropriate to me. Clearly, as both Tony Sidaway and Kusma point out w.r.t. Lord of the Rings, significant background or contextual information from a "later" work is appropriate to include. But I think there are two differences between this example and the case that concerns me: first, the revealed information does not really contribute to an appreciation of the work that is the subject of the article; and second, the nature of the work -- a series in which suspense about events that will occur in future episodes is a central part of viewers' enjoyment (as in the Harry Potter example Kusma also cites) -- is different. If that makes sense, I wonder if WP:SW should discourage mention of specific "future" events in cases where it is not clearly motivated by a meaningful thematic discussion of the the relationship of the subject work to future works or to the collection of works as a whole. — Aldaron • T/ C 18:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I like Tony Sidaway's wording: "Putting gratuitous irrelevant spoilers into works of fiction can be a form of trolling". Perhaps this is something worth adding to the WP:SW guidelines. As they now read, there is a clear bias towards inclusion of information and a stance that, as Phil Sandifer puts it, readers should "expect" to come across information that might give things away, which I think needs to be balanced by pointing out that inclusion of specific "future" events, without good encyclopedic motivation, is rarely warranted (and can be considered trolling). — Aldaron • T/ C 21:34, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I learned about this recent "spoiler warning controversy" from Wikipedia Signpost. I wish that those people doing quick polls about such large-scale changes to current consensus would at least wait until it will be mentioned on Signpost, but I digress. As far as I can see, there was never poll about if people reading and editing Wikipedia are actually *using* the spoiler warnings (and that's the point, I would say). I personally use them sometimes, like, when I know I will go to some movie in cinema, I don't read them. I actually would prefer to have them even in the classical works, for example, when I read 1984 10 years ago, I didn't know how it will end, and that was part of fun (and I remember I got an offer from schoolmate to give away the ending, but I refused, and I was glad). So you never should assume who will know what, it may be obvious for your culture, but people from other part of world can also read Wikipedia. Anyway, shouldn't there be such a poll then? Samohyl Jan 20:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
In When and how to use spoiler warnings, there is a bullet point that says:
This was edited by Deckiller to remove the word "compelling".
I've restored that because I don't think the meaning is the same without it.
Several examples have been given, in the ongoing discussion, of why we shouldn't use spoiler tags: in particular, articles about subjects like The Crying Game, Julius Caesar and Romeo and Juliet that omit crucial information from the lead section. You cannot have a lead section about Julius Caesar, the Shakespeare play, that omits the conspiracy and assassination. Shakespeare himself explains the entire plot of Romeo and Juliet, feud, star cross'd lovers, suicide, and reconciliation of the families in the prolog of his play, the first speech that every theatergoer hears on curtain up. and one guaranteed to bring the auditorium to an immediate hush:
Mr Shakespeare and I are terribly sorry if that has ruined the play for you, but the continuing popularity of Romeo and Juliet is compelling evidence that knowing the plot of a fictional work does not hurt your enjoyment of the work.
And if any English speaking person says they don't understand the above speech because it's in archaic language, I have only this to say: Please take a remedial course in your native tongue, for the import of those words has not changed in the intervening four hundred years. While some Shakespeare speeches may have been made relatively inaccessible by time, the same cannot be said of this one.
No, we need compelling, justifiable reasons to include spoiler tags in Wikipedia articles, because the alternative is to continue to hide essential information about fictional works, for fear of giving out snippets of information. The master himself shows in those few lines above how stupid we have become in mollycoddling the reader. We may not be able to match the language of Shakespeare in beauty, but we should at least set our standards at the same level. The play's the thing. Shakespeare did not treat his audience like frightened children, and nor should we. There must be a compelling reason to conceal crucial details behind spoiler tags. It must be shown that the article is worse without them. -- Tony Sidaway 22:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
(remove indent) I'd like to stress something. When I suggested that spoiler warnings might be avoided on classics (which I defined as works not read for pleasure by a good chunk of the readers), that was a *compromise*. It was a willingness to give in to getting rid of spoilers on some things in the hope that the opponents of spoiler warnings would in turn give in to allowing spoilers on everything else.
Since that doesn't seem to be happening, I'd like to point out that I don't actually consider "no spoilers on classics" to be a good idea. There are too many fuzzy areas, and in the case of something like Shakespeare or Sherlock Holmes, it's too easy to read any guideline to not care about spoiling people when in fact not everyone who reads those is a literary critic and some people *are* reading them for the first time and *do* care about the ending. And it gets even worse if you define "classic" more broadly. Star Wars is classic in one sense, and who Luke's father is is widely known. But there are some people--like kids, or older people who aren't science fiction fans--who have never heard of it. If you asked my mother who Luke's father is, she honestly wouldn't know. If she wanted to watch the Star Wars movies tomorrow, mentioning the revelation without a warning could genuinely spoil her. Ken Arromdee 18:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I would like to see the guideline encourage the use of "Plot synopsis" over just "Plot". For starters, it is less ambiguous that the section contains spoilers. It also further reduce the need for the use of {spoiler} and is less intrusive of a warning.
I also think that this could be used as a base for an "Alternatives to spoiler templates" section. -- Farix ( Talk) 01:36, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I've rewritten this section as follows:
I've reworded the first piece to remove the requirement that a spoiler tag should improve quality, and replace it by a requirement that it doesn't diminish quality. I've also trimmed some detail.
-- Tony Sidaway 10:28, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I just want to say I disagree utterly with removing spoiler tags from sections headed "plot".
IMO the systematic presence of spoiler tags for all detailed plot discussions was a good thing. Quite apart from the courtesy to readers, it also represented a valuable on-page encouragement to editors to give a full and comprehensive plot summary (as per say Sight and Sound magazine), and not to hold back on key plot twists.
I don't see that the spoiler tags were causing any harm at all, but I do see significant harm in removing them. I'm also concerned that this is a change of policy has been made by a small clique of activist editors in a cupboard, without most WP editors having any idea that the change was being pushed.
I suspect when they do notice, I won't be the only one coming here to say: this proposed change is a mistake. Thank you. Jheald 17:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm worried about "compelling reason". I changed it to "good reason", but that got reverted ( diff) with the edit summary "good is not strong enough. Otherwise, not spoiling the surprise to other readers would be 'good enough'". Not spoiling the surprise is the ONLY reason for using the template. If that reason is not valid, then the template should never be used.
If that is indeed the opinion of this guideline, then be a man about it and say so in the guideline, then re-list {{ spoiler}} at MFD. Thanks -- h2g2bob ( talk) 04:22, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
To along with the spoilers guideline, we need a dedicated guideline for specifying that except in exceptional circumstances, plot summaries should not be longer than two or three paragraphs. Pengo put it really well here: "Do we need "spoiler" tags to warn the reader that there's a terribly written "synopsis" following? No, we need better written plot summaries." -- ragesoss 06:39, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
A discussion has emerged on the talk page for the Lost episode Talk:Tricia_Tanaka_Is_Dead, regarding the use of what I'll call 'forward spoilers'. What I mean by this, is giving away important plot points for some episode in an article for a preceding episode. If I'm following a television series, I'm assuming that the spoiler waring only pertains to the plot of the article's episode, so that I can read the article without fear of fining out important things about episodes I haven't seen yet. I would like this policy to include something about only using backward spoilers, or marking forward spoilers especially.
This is not about removing information, just about structuring it so that an episode listing can be used by people who haven't seen the entire show yet. I think this is a significant part of the audience for Wikipedia episode listings, and implementing this small guideline would not hurt the encyclopedic value of wikipedia, but rather add to it. risk 12:35, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
This is an important issue not adequately addressed in existing guidelines. — Aldaron • T/ C 18:52, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I looked at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction) (WP:WAF) today and decided to have a go at writing a compliant out-of-universe plot summary of An Unearthly Child. Of course the most significant thing about the plot of that Doctor Who story is that it introduces the four characters who formed the basis of the program for over a year. So I said that. And of course that's a "forward spoiler" because if you know that you know one member of the four characters didn't last more than a year. Wel that's too bad, because it's a good summary. -- Tony Sidaway 20:44, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
This whole paragraph is terrible:
According to Spoiler (media), "The term spoiler is associated with specialist Internet sites and in newsgroup postings." - Citing an unsourced article is not the best idea, especially when it uses weak phrases such as "is associated with"
Spoilers on the Internet are often precluded by a spoiler warning. - Okay, maybe so. Often? Prove it.
However, this is not done in scholarly reference works; - Okay, maybe so. But absolutely not done? Once again, disputable. And this line really doesn't help the guideline.
thus, spoiler warnings are generally avoided on Wikipedia. - This doesn't really directly follow from the previous statement. Something like "Wikipedia aims to be a scholarly encyclopedia" might help the logic here. --- RockMFR 23:11, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
We seem to keep changing the nutshell every few minutes. Perhaps that is a good indication that the guideline hasn't matured to the point to be summarized in just a couple of lines. But here is another possible suggestion
Farix ( Talk) 00:11, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
This seems too short of a guideline to need a nutshell box. -- Ned Scott 02:05, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I've restored the nutshell (how did that get deleted)? I encountered the wording:
Previously this had read:
The latter made more sense in context, so I've restored it. -- Tony Sidaway 05:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
This guideline implies that there is a preferred way of reading - without knowing the ending ahead of time. Not everyone reads that way. Many people, for example, flip to the end of mysteries in order to figure out the end before they read the rest of the book. Wikipedia should not privilege one kind of reading practice over another in its guidelines. Awadewit Talk 14:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Although it doesn't seem to have been raised here as a problem, someone has removed the following statement:
As it's the core of this guideline, obviously removing it without discussion was an error, so I've restored it. -- Tony Sidaway 15:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I've changed this to make it simpler. I fail to see how the presence of spoiler warnings or otherwise could affect NPOV anyway. -- DrumCarton 21:37, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Dolly_zoom appears to run into problems with the guideline as it is a non fiction article with mention of spoilers for various films yet to remove that many spoilers would probably disimprove the article .
Any Comments . Garda40 16:14, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, let's deal with the basics first. Should that section be there? Yeah. The article would not be comprehensive without a number of examples. The only one that might be spoiler-ish is the Goodfellas one. The explanation of the plot here definitely seems reasonable. A spoiler tag here would be incredibly useless, so I think the guideline holds up here. --- RockMFR 17:25, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Why is this in the guideline? This completely goes against Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages. Yes, a good editor will provide reasons for every edit; however, it is not required. If someone disagrees with your edit, THEN you should provide compelling reasons. --- RockMFR 17:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
People keep saying that spoiler tags are non-scholarly, or non-encyclopaedic. Can I suggest that as an example of a source which does aim to be scholarly and encyclopaedic, we might consider the film journal Sight and Sound, backed by the British Film Institute? I can't help but notice, looking at the articles of record they've put online, eg for The Lives of Others or Zodiac, that each one starts with a plot summary, headed Synopsis, and the first thing it does is to give the warning: Our synopses give away the plot in full, including surprise twists.
The other thing that is perhaps notable is that those plot summaries give a straight, "in-universe" summary of what is seen on screen, with analysis and discussion held over to the review which follows. It seems to me this model may be helpful for WP also - in particular wrt neutral point of view and verifiability concerns, by separating out material which can be verified from the work itself, from comment and analysis which may need to be supported by other sources.
Of course, quite correctly per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction) (WP:WAF), it is important that the article as a whole present a detached and analytical "out-of-universe" perspective. But as the S&S articles demonstrate, a straight unvarnished summary of what is seen is entirely compatible with retaining this critical distance, particularly when it is clearly sectioned off and headlined "Synopsis" – or, in our case, "Plot Summary". Jheald 01:23, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I would like to comment on the following sentence:
“ | Spoiler warnings are usually inappropriate in articles discussing classical works of literature, poetry, film, theatre, and other fields. | ” |
Some people in this world might not have read classical works. For example, I am a freshman, and I have not read Romeo and Juliet until this year. We wouldn't want to spoil the development of the plot to the 8th graders, would we? While classical works are most famous for their plots, students might be google searching the web to learn about their writing style or publication and audience reaction.-- Ed ¿Cómo estás? 18:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
When I use a search engine rather than getting to this site first, I come across many commercial sites which have lifted their text direct from this and decorate it with advertisements. I think that the problem of spoilers is so significant that one of those sites will surely come up with the idea of putting spoiler warnings into all the places where it is being removed from this one. So is this decision mere precursory for the arrival of a competing site? Despite all the touting, Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia – the amusements of popular culture are traditionally beneath the purview of such works, and spoiling them therefore is likewise not going to be done.
[My own experience with spoilers is that I read Alva Rogers's Requiem for Astounding (on the shelves in the high school library) and it ruined all the plot lines of the golden-age science fiction stories for me (the Lensman, Foundation, Baldy, and Gallegher series, as well as the works of A. E. van Vogt) because the stories were out of print. But worse than this was the magazine "Protoculture Addicts", an anime fan magazine put out by people who had access to an entire series years before it became legally available in the West. It had pictures of anime characters, which attracted one to read the text, where there were spoilers.] Sobolewski 19:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Just to get everyone's attention, please update this to guideline providing a permanent link to the demonstration of consensus for future reference. In six years, when we all are gone, people will ask "Where is the consensus for this?" And yes, this is happening right now with new users not understanding, in example, the naming policy (and despite my sarcasm and irony, I like having links to demonstrate consensus handy). -- ReyBrujo 05:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
As I understand it, Wikipedia aims to provide an encyclopediac reference for users looking for information. There are three types of information-searchers Wikipedia needs to cater for: -Those who are looking for a simple "what is it?" about something (and with fictional media NOT necessarily learn the major plot points) -Those who are looking for a particular detail or fact about something -Those who wish to do detailed research on a topic, and gain all the info Wikipedia has about it. Removing spoiler tags and bringing all the important essentially prohibits the first group from using Wikipedia in relation to works of fiction or media. First category users who have not used wikipedia before will come and quickly get burned, and learn not to Wikipedia any more for that sort of search. However, if we DO have spoiler tags, we cater for Category 1 users, whilst still serving the interests of Category 2 and 3 users. Kargath64 07:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Removing the spoilers is bad in many cases. Some of us like to find out a little about something, without necessarily getting the plot and ending ruined for us. -- MacRusgail 16:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
"If knowing the plot of a fictional work ruins it for you, please avoid reading encyclopedia articles about works you haven't viewed or read." - what happens if I want to know if I'd like something, without knowing what the ending is? That's why they have blurb on the back of books, and music/film recordings.--
MacRusgail
16:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
To those in favour of removal of the spoiler template, do not go on deleting sprees until consensus is reached here and at the RfC.
Remember
Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point !
Kargath64
03:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for purging so many of those unnecessary spoiler tags. Very rarely is there a reason to include a spoiler tag. They almost always appear in sections already identified in some ways as revealing plot, therefore the tag is redundant far more often than not. The tag invokes POV by saying that one part of plot information is more spoilable than another. Any criteria attempting to make use objective will only violate restrictions against arbitrary inclusion criteria. Thank you, thank you! Doczilla 05:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm consistently flabbergasted when I see that someone has added a detailed plot summary days, if not weeks in advance of a movie being released. I think this is a very valid time to use the spoiler warning tag even in the plot section, because who in their right mind would expect someone to have access to any REAL spoilers before the movie is even available for public consumption? This happened most recently with Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End, which had a lengthy synopsis in place over a week before the movie hit theaters. I think we should allow this exception to continue to be a place where warnings are kept in effect. -- Bishop2 13:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
As one who is in the obvious "minority" opposed to the wholesale removal of spoiler tags, my feeling on the subject is if they're going to be banned in one instance they may as well be banned utterly -- as in the template being deleted and everything. You can't have half-measures. And then, when people start complaining about either a) unwarned spoilers appearing in articles or b) articles being damaged by having to be written around spoilers, maybe the issue will be revisited. And for the record I resent the whole "this has consensus" thing -- no one asked me and I didn't even know about the issue until my Watchlist started to be filled by the deletions being made by a single editor. 23skidoo 14:24, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
If it is to be left up to consensus on each article, then the thousands of spoiler warning deletions should be reverted (by the person who did them, who has access to the scripts he used to delete them.) These deletions were made without consulting consensus on the individual articles--they were made wholesale.
And making massive deletions and saying "I won't accept consensus for the original situation unless you change the article back" is a form of opt-out. We really have no business forcing 5000 or 10000 or whatever articles to run through an opt-out gauntlet where we say "interested parties must take positive action just for us to leave this article alone". Ken Arromdee 06:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Warning: Your probability of death may be increased by taking this drug for pain.
Warning: Your enjoyment of this packaged entertainment may be reduced by learning the following designed details.
Just a question - on a number of pages, this one for example, we have solution tags (and sometime spolier tags when they should be solution tags). Anyone know if there's a debate on the removal of them on the same premise? Pedro | Chat 15:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Down to 4 - perhaps it is time to rewrite the remaining articles and get rid of the template. Kusma ( talk) 11:44, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I've nominated a slew of duplicate spoiler templates and one disclaimer for deletion tonight. You can find most of them at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 June 1 with an earlier nomination at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 May 30#Template:Sgspoiler. This also doesn't count the half-dozen or so duplicate spoiler templates that Ned Scott redirected instead of put up for deletion. -- Farix ( Talk) 02:31, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I've removed this pending worthwhile arguments for its inclusion. The two arguments advanced so far have been very weak. The first, that we don't set hard rules or 'white lines' in guidelines, is a principle not followed elsewhere in the article, specifically the section which says that classics should not (usually) have spoilers. Most Wikipedia guidelines do set hard rules. Imagine if WP:WEB had 'compelling reasons' instead of actual criteria.
The second, that these things should be hammered out on talk pages, sounds superficially reasonable, except that it was a principle totally ignored by the anti-spoiler brigade in their mass removal campaign.-- Nydas (Talk) 08:01, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
What to do with this template. I really don't really see a need for it and it falls under WP:NDT. It's not a "spoiler warning" in the way that spoiler has been traditionally defined. I also see a lot of redundancy with how this template is used.
The justification behind the template has more to do with protecting the content from magicians who want to keep their trade secrets...well...secret, then to warn the reader. It also gives editors of magic articles an excuse to violate WP:NOT#HOWTO. Both of these makes it a bit harder to go out and delete the templates outright like we are doing with various spoiler and solutions templates.
Bottom line, the template is more a disclaimer then a "spoiler warning". But spoiler warnings are also a form of disclaimer, so I guess that point is moot. The question is, does the infrequent exception for spoiler warnings also apply to magic secrets? -- Farix ( Talk) 19:40, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
...but these two just takes the cake:
Yes folks, we have spoilers on amusement park rides. It would be somewhat amusing if it wasn't down right ridicules. -- Farix ( Talk) 02:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
It does make sense to me, some rides can have stories or surprising endings. When a new ride is opened, I don't want to see a video of it, I want to experience it myself, I don't want to be told of what happens. -- blm07 03:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I guess its hard for some people to understand that theme park rides and films can actually have a story. -- blm07 20:56, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure there are a lot of these complaints here now concerning the removal of spoiler warnings from plots. But give me a minute to express my views anyway:
AAAARGGGHHH!!!! The stupidity of it hurts! You're seriously going to drive people away from Wikipedia just because you want to act professional? NO!
Look. I know that encyclopedias don't have spoiler warnings. But since when do you look up a book in Britannica and get a whole plot summary? Wikipedia is beyond the point where it should try to emulate other encyclopedias. What is the point of imitating them, anyway? I'll tell you: it's to establish ethos. You can't gain the public's respect for an encyclopedia if it's written informally. But Wikipedia has long since gained much of the public's respect. And if you're trying to attract the doubters by sneaking ending details onto them when they don't want them, it's a bad idea. Let me repeat: IT'S A BAD IDEA!!!!! I am obsessed with Wikipedia. I don't contribute much, but I use it for every question I have. And now, I promise you, I will never, ever look up anything that has a plot in it if I haven't read/watched it. Often, there's something I hear allusions to all the time. Star Wars, for instance. Believe it or not, I've never seen anything but Episode IV. It's clearly a huge part of pop culture. I tried to learn a little about it, without spoiling anything (I plan on watching it some day), and I hit a spoiler in the first paragraph! What am I supposed to do? What about things other than movies, which are easy enough to watch? What if someone wants to know the whole big deal about Harry Potter, then finds out that Dumbledore dies before they even start reading? It would ruin so much for them. The entire purpose of Dumbledore is that he is infinitely powerful and wise. How would it be to read the series knowing, all along, that he really isn't so infinitely powerful, and that he's going to end up dying? This is driving me away from Wikipedia, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Clearly, you can tell that I'm angry. I'm reminded irresistibly of a friend of mine who always tries to act professional. He does ridiculous things, just because he's seen the pros do it. For example, when he pitches (in baseball), he nods and shakes his head at the catcher, as if he's getting signals on what to pitch. It's ridiculous! And now I see Wikipedia--Wikipedia!--following in his footsteps.
Tell me, please, what the purpose is of explaining a plot to someone who doesn’t want to know it. The answer: nothing. Now, tell me, please, what the purpose is of explaining a plot to someone who already knows it. The answer? Nothing! You’re driving away the people who could benefit from some details, but not all, and you’re giving unnecessary information to people who already know the plot! Wikipedia is becoming Cliffs Notes! No use to people who have read the book, dangerous to those who haven’t and care about it. The only people left are those who don’t care about the book. That makes enough sense to fill a buckyball. And no more.
Let me copy and paste from the FAQ page, with emphasis added: What is Wikipedia? Wikipedia is an online free-content encyclopedia that anyone can edit. Wikipedia co-founder Jimmy Wales has described Wikipedia as "an effort to create and distribute a multilingual free encyclopedia of the highest quality to every single person on the planet in their own language." Wikipedia exists to bring knowledge to everyone who seeks it.
Again: Wikipedia does not exist to imitate Britannica. It is not an attempt to make an encyclopedia that’s almost as good as Britannica, but free. It’s something completely new to this world. It is, as Jimbo has said at other times, an attempt to bring all of human knowledge together in one place. This is done in encyclopedic form, but this does not mean we’re trying to copy other encyclopedias. Britannica, World Book, and so many others exist to give a brief overview of a topic. Wikipedia goes the next step and gives in-depth information. So why, why, are we saying that “it is unusual for scholarly reference works (of the sort that Wikipedia aspires to be) to warn for spoilers when discussing fictional works”? An encyclopedia doesn’t have the kind of spoilers Wikipedia has, because it doesn’t have the depth. Literary journals don’t have spoiler warnings, because it’s assumed that the readers of literary journals are going to be well-read, and they aren’t going to be going to a journal to learn about the cultural impact of a book; they’ll only be going to read analyses of a plot they’ve already read. So why are we trying to pretend to be one of these “scholarly reference works” when aren’t one of them? We’re different, and we shouldn’t pretend that we aren’t. Remember this: Be bold! Twilight Realm 00:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Additionally, if someone could point me in the right direction of where to debate this further, I'd be quite thankful. Twilight Realm 00:41, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Good grief. We're *still* saying things like "If you are that naive to not understand that a section called "Plot" will contain spoilers, then you deserve to be spoiled," when that has been addressed over and over again?
First of all, it isn't true that every "Plot" section will contain spoilers. Not every plot element is a spoiler. A plot section that contains only non-spoiler plot elements would need no warning.
Second, a spoiler warning doesn't have to go at the top of a section. Even if every plot section did contain spoilers, putting a spoiler warning in them would be useful--since if the plot section has the spoiler at the end, we could put the warning near the end of the section and people who don't want to read spoilers will know they can read the first part.
Third, even if every plot section contained spoilers, consistency of user interface design may require redundancy. It makes a lot of sense to put spoiler warnings on everything that contains spoilers, even if the user could already figure that out for some of them, because using the same format (spoiler warnings) for the information everywhere, rather than a different format (spoiler warnings outside plot sections, section titles in plot sections) simplifies the user experience. We don't remove the word "Tuesday" from the calendar on the grounds that everyone who reads a calendar can already figure out that the day after Monday is Tuesday. Ken Arromdee 04:48, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Unless I'm mistaken, I consistently see the word "should" used by the spoiler-tag removal cabal. That's a big clue. The aforementioned example of a new (to Wikipedia) user finding a movie page on Google, reading the plot, then suddenly finding out " Darth is Luke's father!," " Holland is dead!," " the girlfriend is really a guy!," may be caught unawares of the detail, before enjoying the film. A classic example is the dreaded review New Yorker by Pauline Kael of Planet of the Apes, in which she divulged the surprise ending (Taylor finds the Statue of Liberty, indicating that he's not on a distant planet, but back on Earth, and the "ancient, destructive civilization" was his own). Many scorn Kael for having leaked this surprise, thereby (ahem) spoiling the surprise for anyone who hadn't seen, but wanted to see, the film. The same standard, IMHO, applies here. Describe the work in a real-world perspective, but if we divulge surprises in the interests of complete coverage, do the reader a courtesy of alerting that "reading further will spoil surprises." Stop applying made up rules about what WP "should be," or "ought to be." Those are personal agendae, and have no place in a "anyone can edit" community. Off the soapbox,.... David Spalding ( ☎ ✉ ✍) 14:34, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
What about reasoning why those "Unacceptable alternatives" are unacceptable??? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.165.250.10 ( talk) 19:18, 5 May 2007 (UTC).
To save this page from MFD, I suggest the German spoiler policy (this is a translation by me and babelfish, with adaptations by me):
- David Gerard 22:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
The German wording seems okay to me. -- Tony Sidaway 03:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Now the point is that we now have a proposed new version to discuss:
Whoever is edit warring please calm down and stop it. Whatever we end up deciding on will be the result of consensus. -- Tony Sidaway 03:29, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I believe that the appropriate measure is to tag this page as historical. Even though it was prematurely closed, the MFD attracted substantial comment, and the evidence is strong that a consensus of users either wanted to delete the page entirely, or else deprecate it as historical. I think there is obviously no consensus for keeping the page the way that it is, as the MFD discussion indicates. A strong majority of users are dissatisfied with current spoiler policy. Crotalus horridus 03:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, we should continue the discussion here. -- Tony Sidaway 03:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I find it ridiculous that the MfD was closed. Hate to say it, but the MfD was an infinitely better method of handling the situation. First, it's more clearly advertised then a conversation on a talkpage. Second, it gains the appeal of a wider range of editors by displaying it in multiple ways. Third, it gauges consensus easily. Just because it violated protocol doesn't mean common sense should be used. IAR really needs to be renamed to "Use Common Sense". I'm confident those numerous "delete" !votes will not be drowned out so easily. — Deckill er 03:32, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
That not everyone is on the same talk page... -- Ned Scott 03:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}}
Please could someone remove the MFD tag because that discussion has been closed as inappropriate for discussion of a guideline, and moved to Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Policies/Wikipedia:Spoiler warning. Perhaps the tag should be replaced by a note that discussion of the guideline is continuing on that moved page. -- Tony Sidaway 13:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
How will we notify the people reading the pages with spoiler templates? 168.229.22.213 14:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
The major problem, not just with this guideline, but with {{ spoiler}} tag itself, and the reason why it keeps getting supporters even though it's flatly unencyclopedic and goes against most of our other policies on content warnings, comes, I think down to the first edit, which inadvertently says why spoiler warnings are bad policy that keeps surviving. From the very first edit:
This is, in a nutshell, the problem with spoiler warnings and the reason people keep insisting on adding them. Spoiler warnings have no place in an encyclopedia; but people are simply used to seeing them on message boards, in internet discussion forums, on Usenet... There are many compelling reasons for including spoiler warnings on message boards, but none of these have anything to do with making an accurate, professional encyclopedia. Worrying about how an article will affect someone's enjoyment of a book or movie is, basically, unencyclopedic; the logical extension of spoiler warnings would be to say that we can't report critical opinions of books and movies, even when widespread or noteworthy, because it might make it harder for people to enjoy them. Likewise, netiquette does not apply to Wikipedia content, and, indeed, a concerted effort should be made to avoid having netiquette and other internet-biased views influence article space. I think that this policy should be simple, straight, and to the point: "Spoiler warnings are always unapproprate for an encyclopedia, and should not be used in articles." -- Aquillion 18:32, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Several editors are systemically removing spoiler warnings -- from everywhere as far as I can tell. At least one explicitly declared that he does not care about that the use of the spoiler tag is disputed. (See Talk:A Wizard of Earthsea#Spoiler warning.)
This sort of end-run around the policy does not bode well for the end results of the dispute, if they are not reined in. Goldfritha 00:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Whoever the editors are who are simply deleting spoiler warning because 'they can' - I would ask them to stop and discuss these edits on the pages themselves. Deciding something quickly (between only a few editors) on this page and then surfing thru WP and making changes to pages these editors harldy care about is rather rude and a bit presumptious. I am another voice asking these editors to stop. I am certainly not part of their hastily assembled "concensus" Smatprt 03:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Please point out the consensus leading to the addition of the section "Where spoilers may be inappropriate". -- 87.189.124.195
I think spoiler warnings are great! They help you avoid information which might end up "spoiling" your enojyment of a piece of work, such as a movie, viedeo game, etc. (mainly involving the plot) Cause in the end, the way you find that piece of information might be the an exciting part of the work. I hope any wikipedia editors don't end up removing spoiler warnings cause they really do work! Plus, who gets affected if they just there, right? So just forget about the whole thing and leave them spoilers alone. Da_PipinFonz
Please remove WP:SW from shortcuts as it redirects the the Star Wars WikiProject. - Patricknoddy TALK (reply here)| HISTORY 20:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
"They are also generally inappropriate in respect of factual works, classic works of fiction (including films), or subjects where plot twists have been the subject of considerable external debate."
What makes a work of fiction a "classic work of fiction"? As a first approximation, does it refer to any work of fiction whose copyright has expired? -- Damian Yerrick ( talk | stalk) 20:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I've marked this as rejected. Whilst its merits as a guideline are obviously disputed - some people think it ought to be a guideline - it is obvious that it does not have a consensus in support in its current form - so it is quite clear that it is rejected (for now anyway). Does anyone seriously wish to argue that there IS a consensus in support of this.-- Docg 08:51, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Taken from Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Policies/Wikipedia:Spoiler warning#Time to close this - results are obvious, Tony Sidaway's adaptation of the German policy, several of the comments from the RFC, and a few of my own ideas. -- Ned Scott 01:29, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
My problem is with "Spoiler warnings should never be used on ancient texts, literary classics, classic films, or works whose plot is 'common knowledge'." Can you confirm that the plot os all of Shakespeare's plays are "common knowledge"? For example, without looking it up, how many editors of this page can assure me that they know the plot twist at the end of "Timon of Athens" ? Smatprt 03:56, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Seems like a good start. Some commentary on a few lines:
Why shouldn't it be used if the spoiler is integral to understanding the work? I think I see what you're getting at here- if the only thing something is famous for is inherently tied up in "spoilerness," then go ahead and put that in the lead, which should not have spoiler tags. But if a spoiler is integral to understanding the work and in most of the article? Well, tag the first section of the article with the spoiler warning, then. That won't compromise the article structure, but it will offer fair warning. I'd tentatively suggest just chopping out the first half of that sentence, although perhaps there's a better phrasing.
I would not support this line. While I'm not in favor of spoiler warnings for Shakespeare and other classics, I'd stretch the definition of "contemporary" considerably farther. Not sure what a good phrasing is, but roughly "one lifetime" seems about right. King Kong is fair game; something from the 80's, however, is quite likely to still be experienced afresh. The 60's are a grey area, although I'd lean away from spoiler warnings. (Also, Snape kills Dumbledore is absolutely worthy of a spoiler warning — if it's mentioned outside the "plot" section for some reason. The same is true of all your other examples - I don't think they're nearly as widely known as something which has entered the language itself, like, say, Jekyll & Hyde.)
"Reasonable" is fuzzy and kind of circularly defines itself. I'd suggest something like "Spoilers are only rarely appropriate for the lead, but may be reasonable in cases where the topic is inextricably tied to such information."
Also, there should probably be a line in there about not twisting the article structure for the sake of spoilers. I'd propose something like:
SnowFire 05:02, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Should we add a sentence with an analogy comparing such tags to fair use images, i.e. use them only when absolutely required, because in most cases, and especially classical works (compare with fair use images and living people), they aren't necessary? Johnleemk | Talk 06:09, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I strongly object to "Such tags should only be used once in an article." Consider articels such as Aubrey-Maturin series where a whole series of works is discussed in a number of mini-articles. Spoilers can exist in multiple sub-sections of such articles. DES (talk) 09:53, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
This draft exemplifies the problem on the RfC discussion. The following text has appeared only recently in the existing spoiler warning (I realise it's not new to this draft), clearly placed there by the "anti" element:
This is a false description of what such articles should do (per the MoS: WP:WAF). It foregrounds in-universe plot summaries (bad) and relegates the primary purpose of the article (giving the work's place in the overall field) to secondary status. It is clear from WP:WAF that a good article about a work of fiction need not include a "full" description of the plot, whatever that means. If the work is of minor notability it need not include any details of the plot.
We also have the standard kow-tow to traditional encyclopedias:
Right now, Wikipedia is THE encyclopedia (I speak as an academic). It is as accurate as any general-purpose encyclopedia, far more detailed, and far more accessible. Moreover, it is the only useful and serious encyclopedia designed for on-line reading, where spoiler warnings are particularly useful. PaddyLeahy 10:46, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Ned's proposal, mixed with Phil's, looks not insane so far.
I'm still taking lots of inappropriate spoilers out to be shot, and I'm seeing that ... most are sticking that way. And those reverting them are tending to get themselves blocked for 3RR, i.e. are hotheads anyway. This suggests to me that the actual wiki-wide consensus either agrees with me or doesn't disagree. As such, I'd suggest leaving finalising this for a few days to see if complaints flood in from actual aggrieved readers (the people this is supposedly for) about spoilers.
(I don't hate spoilers. I've even added them myself. It's just almost all of them at present are redundant or ridiculous.) - David Gerard 15:16, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Somehow, I don't think the section on "Problems with spoiler warnings" is complete without first explain how the use of spoiler warnings have been abused in the past. So here is my attempt at an introduction to:
Perhaps someone can reword it a bit or take the basic idea and come up with their own introduction. -- Farix ( Talk) 17:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Adding 'what is a spoiler' - David Gerard 17:16, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I've removed mention of this entirely. It is impossible to do even the weakest article on a magic trick without revealing its workings. Sawing a woman in half is a prime example of an article that is just dreadful because it's unwilling to reveal the method of the trick until the very end of the article, leaving it with an entire history section that leaves out key parts of the history like how the trick was completed at various times in its history. The same, it seems to me, can safely be said of any magic trick of sufficient notability to have an article - the history of the trick is its methods, and thus there is no article without revealing the secret constantly. Puzzles seem to me essentially similar - no meaningful analysis of them can take place without the solution being revealed. Phil Sandifer 17:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I've added "about a fictional work" or words to that effect to various sections that say removing a spoiler is wrong. There are several cases where plot spoilers have been added to unrelated works and then marked with a spoiler warning, and in some cases the addition of the spoiler was really not relevant to the subject at all. For instance the Roger Bacon article has something about a Bacon character in a video game. This says:
This gives the game away to some readers, but obviously it's of at best very tangential relevance to Bacon so the whole thing, or at least the spoiler itself, could be removed from the article and the article would most likely be all the better for that. A spoiler tag formerly on that article, on account of that plot spoiler, has recently been removed.
So I have added this:
Perhaps this is over-egging the pudding, though. Please edit mercilessly. -- Tony Sidaway 17:44, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Currently, I have noticed that in the Grim Tuesday Article, lines from the spoiler formatting are impeding on pictures. This could just be my computer, but if something can be done...? 86.132.249.228 18:04, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
As much as we could argue about this 'till kingdom come, it appears that (finally) we're getting somewhere with the prop'd guideline. Can we just do a show of hands to see if the proposal has support/needs tweaking? David Fuchs ( talk / frog blast the vent core!) 18:28, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
PaddyLeahy 19:46, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Since the guideline is, in its current form, coming down against spoilers, it seems beside the point to rehash the pro-spoiler warning arguments. The purpose of that section, as I see it, is to offer an explanation for the logic of the guideline, which is important so that people, when directed to the guideline, do not see it as arbitrary. To rehash the debate implicitly promotes further fighting over spoiler warnings. If any of the counter-arguments listed sincerely have a consensus behind them, the guideline should be adjusted to fit them. Otherwise, they probably don't belong. Phil Sandifer 19:54, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
In mid to late 2006, a spoiler template before the fact that Snape Kills Dumbledore in Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince would be warranted. Due to the wide dissemination of this information, however, a spoiler tag would not currently be appropriate. The same reasoning can be used for major spoilers in Ender's Game, The Usual Suspects, and The Sixth Sense.
This is a distraction to the actual argument. See the reasoning as to why people might not feel too keen about complaining, especially when they might be derided as whiners for doing so.
Arcayne
(cast a spell)
00:07, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
As well, might I ask you to cite both the basis of your claim of 45,000 spoiler-tagged articles as well as your reference for zero "documented reader complaints"?
Arcayne
(cast a spell)
00:19, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
It occurs to me that it would be easier to better calibrate where this guideline supports and discourages spoiler warnings if we could actually turn to the readers. Would the pro-warning people be so kind as to provide, briefly, any accounts they are aware of where people have complained because their enjoyment of a work was actually diminished by a spoiler revealed in Wikipedia? Not a case where you think someone's enjoyment might be, or where you personally learned a detail about a movie that you were maybe kinda going to see one day. I'm talking about cases where somebody looked up Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince while they were still reading it, learned that Snape killed Dumbledore, and were upset to learn this information. If we can have a sense of who is actually upset and hurt by spoilers, it's a lot easier to write an appropriate guideline. Phil Sandifer 22:10, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Here is a vote for keeping spoiler tags. I had "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince" spoiled for me wile reading it.. but that spoiler came on a message board about another film (someone making a snotty comment about spoilers in general dropped that bomb). I think this "all you people who have been spoiled by Wikipedia spoilers step up so we can gage it" is a specious argument. So lets see... we need to find people who read Wikipedia, know what a spoiler is, read a spoiler, are annoyed by a spoiler, read Discussion pages, and have the free time and inclination to post on a Discussion page that they were spoiled. That sample is so self-selecting as to be non-existent. Spoilers are annoying no matter where you read them. Courtesy dictates that you warn about them at least. I have seen no guidelines one Wikipedia banning courtesy. Halfblue 00:36, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I think the misapplication of the spoiler tag is part of the problem as well. There should be tags for films (both relatively current and those which rely upon the element of surprise for effectiveness) as well as literature utilizing similar methods of surprise. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 23:44, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
This would be better as a talk page note, where people can still understand the background of this debate without having to read archives, but doesn't clutter the actual guideline. -- Ned Scott 22:43, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
The talk page notice would work for the list of arguments bit, but at least the paragraoh about policies on WikiProjects and other Wikipedias should probably stay on the main page. -- tjstrf talk 23:02, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
People write essays about everything on Wikipedia, and sometimes links to these essays are appended at the end of guideline or policy pages. I think that could be appropriate here, too. Shanes 23:18, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I reiterate that having a lengthy section of "reasons people dislike this guideline" is silly. If any of these viewpoints actually have consensus, they are reasons to alter the guideline. If (as I suspect) they do not actually have consensus so much as a few dogged adherents, they belong at Wikipedia:Why spoiler warnings are good, which should be tagged as essay. To put them in the guideline page they oppose falsely elevates them, and excessively encourages ignoring the guideline. Furthermore, many of the reasons in there currently are just... bad. People might not speak up about movies being spoiled? We should include spoiler warnings when we don't include any other disclaimers? Calling these arguments a reach is generous. Phil Sandifer 02:37, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
This is getting ridicules to the point that I've removed the entire section. The guideline should not be rehashing the debate where one side tries to "out point" the other. If you wish to make a point for or against spoiler warnings, it should be done here on the talk page or at the RfC. -- Farix ( Talk) 05:56, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
This is severely disappointing: The "No disclaimer templates" policy page had a specific exception for allowing spoiler tags. It was removed because of the pressure to change spoiler policy here. The lack of the exception is now being used in the arguments here for pressure to change spoiler policy. Am I the only one who sees a problem with this? -- Kizor 04:36, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
If the "anti" element are seriously trying to write a guideline which allows use of spoilers in a way which minimizes distortion of article structure, they should welcome the use of {{Endspoiler}}. Without this tag, editors are driven to place spoiler material at the end of the article, after all the information they would like to be seen by readers who don't want to see the spoiler (e.g. those contemplating reading/viewing the work in question). By the same token, the advice (on the template page) not to use {{Endspoiler}} at the end of sections should be removed. PaddyLeahy 10:33, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Uh, I'll just echo what Paddy has said. I'm not in favor of spoiler warnings causing an article's structure to warp, and endspoiler will help that task if anything. SnowFire 22:03, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
David Gerard has removed my deletion of the stipulation that "Plot" sections should not be marked with spoiler tags, labelling it "silly". But this is the heart of the argument. This line, which of course is the principle new item added in this draft, justifies David's (and a few other editors) precipitate action in deleting many hundreds of spoiler warnings. I have given two reasons for resisting this proscription, which have not been satisfactorially answered by the anti element:
For instance, up until I would guess about 1700 most works of fiction were based on stock plots which the writer expected the audience to know. Therefore knowledge of the plot can hardly be described as a spoiler (so the line on the tag "Plot and/or ending details follow" misses the point... the current project page gives a much better definition of spoiler). Even today, many fictions do not rely on a surprise ending or plot twists but get their impact from the depth of characterisation etc. And many plot summaries on wikipedia do not reveal crucial plot twists. Is any of this disputed?
F y dn't blv m why nt rmv ll vwls frm wkpd—t's wll knwn tht nglsh txt cn b rd wtht thm. Or why not remove the lead section since it is supposedly a redundant summary of the rest of the article? Re-inforcing the message that Plot sections etc do indeed give away crucial elements (in specific cases) is one of the main points of spoiler warnings. PaddyLeahy 10:55, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
OK, we have apparently zero complaints from readers about spoilers from before Phil and I started asking for such complaints.
So I went looking for general public opinions on spoilers in Wikipedia. Since the Internet public in general complain chronically about any and every aspect of our content.
Quickly hitting blogsearch.google.com with "Wikipedia spoiler", I didn't get a lot. Or indeed any. I did find an expectation of full detail in Wikipedia, e.g. [1], [2], [3], [4] (where he spoils 300 for himself by reading Leonidas), [5], [6] (expects spoilers, doesn't sound entirely pleased by this), [7] (uses Wikipedia as source for a spoiler), [8] ("Spoiler warnings are the scourge of modern civilisation"), [9], [10], [11] ... - David Gerard 11:07, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
There's the fact that we HAD our spoilers clearly marked. Please check the German-speaking part. -- Kizor 16:56, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I like this write up. I think it accurately represents the consensus that has developed. The only part I'm not sure about is:
Articles about fictional characters, objects or places can be expected to be substantially made up of elements of the story in question and should not need spoiler warnings.
I'm not sure I agree. There are three types of information on fictional characters, etc. There is real-world information (who played them, who created them, etc), there is background information (who the character is, basically stuff that happens before the story starts and isn't secret) and there are the events that took place in the fictional work involving them. Only the last one involves spoilers. I think it can make sense in certain articles to include spoiler warnings before bits of information fitting into the 3rd category. Quite often those bits of information will fall into a "Plot Summary" type section, so wouldn't need a warning, but that's already mentioned in a different bullet point.
-- Tango 16:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Can we have a coherent definition of this bias-magnet? Despite all the thundering denunciations of the 'everyforum.com' mentality, most of the examples (Star Wars, Harry Potter, etc) suggested as 'known to everyone' are really only known to members of everyforum. Are the works of Barbara Taylor Bradford or Jacqueline Wilson (both massive authors) 'common knowledge'?-- Nydas (Talk) 17:02, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
The project page currently states:
"Spoiler" isn't a neologism. The American Heritage dictionary (4th ed, 2006) defines it thus:
spoil·er n. [...] 5. A published piece of information that divulges a surprise, such as a plot twist in a movie. [13]
Compact Oxford has the definition "a news story published with the intention of reducing the impact of a related item published in a rival paper" [14] which is clearly a very closely related definition.
May I suggest removing this sentence and finding a different reason why people don't want to include them to elevate up to the top section? JulesH 19:00, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
"In six years, there are zero documented reader (as opposed to editor) complaints about a lack of spoilers in Wikipedia, when readers famously complain at length about every other aspect of Wikipedia's content."
Well I'ld like to destroy this argument right now. Try reading Talk:Shadow_of_the_Colossus. You'll find at least two. On top of that, the argument is fundamentally flawed seeing as there ARE spoiler tags. What do you expect? Why would people complain when there are already plenty of spoiler tags on most pages where spoilers occur? Ziiv 20:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
To simplify how many templates we have, I've proposed this change to {{ spoiler}}. -- Ned Scott 21:14, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
The use of spoiler warnings is controversial amongst Wikipedians. Key arguments against are:
Key arguments for are:
Here's a couple more.
Ken Arromdee 15:07, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
This page is well-written and gives reasonable restrictions to limit the proliferation of spoiler tags. >Radiant< 10:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
"Spoiler warnings are inappropriate in articles discussing classical works of literature, poetry, film, theatre, and other fields. In grey areas, editors placing spoiler templates should attempt to justify this on the individual article's talk page and be ready to defend them in discussion."
What exactly constitues a "classic work"? Sabre Knight 12:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
How does a spoiler warning on a classic work (British,Irish,American etc that's the problem defining a classic work ) stop you learning about any classic .You either decide to go off and read it or decide it doesn't matter if you are spoiled and read the article .Either way you learn about the classic . Garda40 19:27, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
And you just illustrated the problem of one person's classic that another doesn't know anything. Cliff notes aren't called by that name here so asking people for them would get a blank stare in most bookshops . Garda40 21:10, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
"Spoiler warnings may be used in articles whose primary subject is fictional where the editors proposing them can provide a compelling and justifiable reason to insert one. Such reasons should show that knowledge of the spoiler would likely substantially diminish many readers' enjoyment of the work."
This statement is extremely silly! How can we give reasons why people would enjoy a work less, if, say, they knew in advance who dies at the end of the sixth Harry Potter? Wouldn't such a thing break WP:OR? To me this seems like an underhanded way to prevent spoiler tags from being used legitimately. Either we use {{ spoiler}} or we don't. No sitting on the fence. -- Temporarily Insane ( talk) 21:25, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Actually, that appears to be the matter of some debate. Who is actually suggesting the removal of all spoilers, following the stated example of the German-L wiki? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 07:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
At the moment, the order makes little sense. It would be better, in my opinion, to say when to use spoiler templates before saying when not to use them. Can I swap the positions of those two sections? -- h2g2bob ( talk) 00:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
"Spoiler tags are redundant when used in ==Plot== or other sections that are clearly going to discuss the plot" - not if there are a "plot introduction" section (intended to be spoiler free) and a "Plot summary" which is for a fuller plot treatment 'likely' to contain spoilers. How else are we to indicate to the reader that the first is ok to read when wanting to avoid spoilers.
Also this rolling juggernaut of editing that is happen ahead of agreement on guidlines is huge concerning. Removing tag is "so" easy with tools like AWB. There are hugely difficult to put back, they represent months on work and effort. Another way to hacking off hardworking and responsible editors who are trying to do their best. Oh what the heck shall I just go and hang my head in my hands. 07:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with the idea that "Plot" sections should not contain spoiler warnings (as the current text of the proposed guideline stipulates). Plot information does not always act as a spoiler, inasmuch as it does not disclose the ending or other details. Often a part of the section is a spoiler and another is not. When reading about a work that you haven't read/watched etc., you will normally want to: 1. have some general info about its plot so as to know whether you want to read/watch it; 2. avoid spoilers so as not to have your reading/watching spoiled. So it is helpful to indicate where the spoilers begin - otherwise the reader has to guess for himself which part of it to read and the articles become much less useful.
An example is the article Ghost World (film) about which I'm engaged in an edit conflict right now. The first sentence in the "Plot" section is "The story focuses on the relationship of two teenage friends, Enid (Thora Birch) and Rebecca (Scarlett Johansson), who are outside of the normal high school social order in an unnamed suburb, often assumed to be in or around Los Angeles, where much of the movie was shot." This is rather general and is not a spoiler; indeed it is very likely that a future viewer would like to know it. That's why the tag was placed after it and before everything else. -- 91.148.159.4 13:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
This section is also unacceptable. Consider Valen, for instance, where the character's identity is a major spoiler, and is only revealed after some time, but it's possible to say things about him without revealing the spoiler. Or consider a murder mystery where a character is the killer. It seems reasonable to have a spoiler warning before the part saying that the person is the killer. Ken Arromdee 15:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Instead of outright remove spoilers, why don't we just add an option to turn them on or off globally? CDClock 17:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
As a "suck it and see" test, I've applied the "guideline" tag to this page. There will be changes, even major ones, but I think we've got the basic shape of it now. Please revert and raise objections (to the current content,not my bold, reversible act) if you think it's unsound and unsustainable (rather than just flawed) in its current form. -- Tony Sidaway 23:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I suspect we should add a mention to the effect of "no spoiler warnings in leads," simply because spoiler warning tags, in their current appearance, break the visual flow of a lead, giving the false impression that a lead ends earlier than it does. The Crying Game in its current form is a good example of this - in terms of visual look the box cutting through the lead effectively creates a mini-lead that is incomplete. This is worsened by the fact that the box most resembles the contents box in its visual identity, which is the cue that the lead has ended. (Obviously nobody is going to be stupid enough to mistake a spoiler warning for a ToC, but the visual cue of "bracketed box" remains strong in this case, and suggests an end to the lead. The result, in any case, is to de-emphasize the later part of the lead.) Perhaps this could be solved with a new, smaller spoiler template that doesn't have the box look, or by moving the spoiler template to the beginning of the article so it doesn't bisect the lead. In either case, though, the current implementation is a problem. Phil Sandifer 03:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
There is a very famous case like this in Jára Cimrman. He is a fictional person, but also a sort of national hero (every Czech knows that meme). There was a big discussion on Czech Wikipedia if to ever mention that he was fictional (because the basic point is the mystification that he is real). Of course, the introduction must mention that he is fictional, but it takes the magic of mystification away. I am not sure if it is possible write about him at all without spoiler warning in the beginning (if you don't oppose spoiler warnings in principle). PS - please do not remove the tag in that article, unless you really know well this Czech meme, you will sure break a long established consensus by doing that. Samohyl Jan 19:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
The further discussion has been moved to Talk:Jára Cimrman.
In episodic works, is it appropriate to include information that gives away critical plot or character information from future episodes? I can see the reasoning behind much of WP:SW, but seems to allow for the inclusion of such information, which, I would argue, a reasonable reader should expect not to be present. Someone reading an article about the first episode of a 6 year TV series shouldn't have to worry that he might encounter information about the last episode, should he? — Aldaron • T/ C 15:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Why not? Because many (most?) readers of such articles are "reading along" with their viewing. We can, of course, "train" such people to expect such information; but their only response can then be not to read it at all. I can't see what the value of "containing a lot of information" is going to be if people aren't going to read it. — Aldaron • T/ C 15:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Here is an example of the sort of thing that seems inappropriate to me. Clearly, as both Tony Sidaway and Kusma point out w.r.t. Lord of the Rings, significant background or contextual information from a "later" work is appropriate to include. But I think there are two differences between this example and the case that concerns me: first, the revealed information does not really contribute to an appreciation of the work that is the subject of the article; and second, the nature of the work -- a series in which suspense about events that will occur in future episodes is a central part of viewers' enjoyment (as in the Harry Potter example Kusma also cites) -- is different. If that makes sense, I wonder if WP:SW should discourage mention of specific "future" events in cases where it is not clearly motivated by a meaningful thematic discussion of the the relationship of the subject work to future works or to the collection of works as a whole. — Aldaron • T/ C 18:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I like Tony Sidaway's wording: "Putting gratuitous irrelevant spoilers into works of fiction can be a form of trolling". Perhaps this is something worth adding to the WP:SW guidelines. As they now read, there is a clear bias towards inclusion of information and a stance that, as Phil Sandifer puts it, readers should "expect" to come across information that might give things away, which I think needs to be balanced by pointing out that inclusion of specific "future" events, without good encyclopedic motivation, is rarely warranted (and can be considered trolling). — Aldaron • T/ C 21:34, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I learned about this recent "spoiler warning controversy" from Wikipedia Signpost. I wish that those people doing quick polls about such large-scale changes to current consensus would at least wait until it will be mentioned on Signpost, but I digress. As far as I can see, there was never poll about if people reading and editing Wikipedia are actually *using* the spoiler warnings (and that's the point, I would say). I personally use them sometimes, like, when I know I will go to some movie in cinema, I don't read them. I actually would prefer to have them even in the classical works, for example, when I read 1984 10 years ago, I didn't know how it will end, and that was part of fun (and I remember I got an offer from schoolmate to give away the ending, but I refused, and I was glad). So you never should assume who will know what, it may be obvious for your culture, but people from other part of world can also read Wikipedia. Anyway, shouldn't there be such a poll then? Samohyl Jan 20:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
In When and how to use spoiler warnings, there is a bullet point that says:
This was edited by Deckiller to remove the word "compelling".
I've restored that because I don't think the meaning is the same without it.
Several examples have been given, in the ongoing discussion, of why we shouldn't use spoiler tags: in particular, articles about subjects like The Crying Game, Julius Caesar and Romeo and Juliet that omit crucial information from the lead section. You cannot have a lead section about Julius Caesar, the Shakespeare play, that omits the conspiracy and assassination. Shakespeare himself explains the entire plot of Romeo and Juliet, feud, star cross'd lovers, suicide, and reconciliation of the families in the prolog of his play, the first speech that every theatergoer hears on curtain up. and one guaranteed to bring the auditorium to an immediate hush:
Mr Shakespeare and I are terribly sorry if that has ruined the play for you, but the continuing popularity of Romeo and Juliet is compelling evidence that knowing the plot of a fictional work does not hurt your enjoyment of the work.
And if any English speaking person says they don't understand the above speech because it's in archaic language, I have only this to say: Please take a remedial course in your native tongue, for the import of those words has not changed in the intervening four hundred years. While some Shakespeare speeches may have been made relatively inaccessible by time, the same cannot be said of this one.
No, we need compelling, justifiable reasons to include spoiler tags in Wikipedia articles, because the alternative is to continue to hide essential information about fictional works, for fear of giving out snippets of information. The master himself shows in those few lines above how stupid we have become in mollycoddling the reader. We may not be able to match the language of Shakespeare in beauty, but we should at least set our standards at the same level. The play's the thing. Shakespeare did not treat his audience like frightened children, and nor should we. There must be a compelling reason to conceal crucial details behind spoiler tags. It must be shown that the article is worse without them. -- Tony Sidaway 22:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
(remove indent) I'd like to stress something. When I suggested that spoiler warnings might be avoided on classics (which I defined as works not read for pleasure by a good chunk of the readers), that was a *compromise*. It was a willingness to give in to getting rid of spoilers on some things in the hope that the opponents of spoiler warnings would in turn give in to allowing spoilers on everything else.
Since that doesn't seem to be happening, I'd like to point out that I don't actually consider "no spoilers on classics" to be a good idea. There are too many fuzzy areas, and in the case of something like Shakespeare or Sherlock Holmes, it's too easy to read any guideline to not care about spoiling people when in fact not everyone who reads those is a literary critic and some people *are* reading them for the first time and *do* care about the ending. And it gets even worse if you define "classic" more broadly. Star Wars is classic in one sense, and who Luke's father is is widely known. But there are some people--like kids, or older people who aren't science fiction fans--who have never heard of it. If you asked my mother who Luke's father is, she honestly wouldn't know. If she wanted to watch the Star Wars movies tomorrow, mentioning the revelation without a warning could genuinely spoil her. Ken Arromdee 18:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I would like to see the guideline encourage the use of "Plot synopsis" over just "Plot". For starters, it is less ambiguous that the section contains spoilers. It also further reduce the need for the use of {spoiler} and is less intrusive of a warning.
I also think that this could be used as a base for an "Alternatives to spoiler templates" section. -- Farix ( Talk) 01:36, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I've rewritten this section as follows:
I've reworded the first piece to remove the requirement that a spoiler tag should improve quality, and replace it by a requirement that it doesn't diminish quality. I've also trimmed some detail.
-- Tony Sidaway 10:28, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I just want to say I disagree utterly with removing spoiler tags from sections headed "plot".
IMO the systematic presence of spoiler tags for all detailed plot discussions was a good thing. Quite apart from the courtesy to readers, it also represented a valuable on-page encouragement to editors to give a full and comprehensive plot summary (as per say Sight and Sound magazine), and not to hold back on key plot twists.
I don't see that the spoiler tags were causing any harm at all, but I do see significant harm in removing them. I'm also concerned that this is a change of policy has been made by a small clique of activist editors in a cupboard, without most WP editors having any idea that the change was being pushed.
I suspect when they do notice, I won't be the only one coming here to say: this proposed change is a mistake. Thank you. Jheald 17:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm worried about "compelling reason". I changed it to "good reason", but that got reverted ( diff) with the edit summary "good is not strong enough. Otherwise, not spoiling the surprise to other readers would be 'good enough'". Not spoiling the surprise is the ONLY reason for using the template. If that reason is not valid, then the template should never be used.
If that is indeed the opinion of this guideline, then be a man about it and say so in the guideline, then re-list {{ spoiler}} at MFD. Thanks -- h2g2bob ( talk) 04:22, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
To along with the spoilers guideline, we need a dedicated guideline for specifying that except in exceptional circumstances, plot summaries should not be longer than two or three paragraphs. Pengo put it really well here: "Do we need "spoiler" tags to warn the reader that there's a terribly written "synopsis" following? No, we need better written plot summaries." -- ragesoss 06:39, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
A discussion has emerged on the talk page for the Lost episode Talk:Tricia_Tanaka_Is_Dead, regarding the use of what I'll call 'forward spoilers'. What I mean by this, is giving away important plot points for some episode in an article for a preceding episode. If I'm following a television series, I'm assuming that the spoiler waring only pertains to the plot of the article's episode, so that I can read the article without fear of fining out important things about episodes I haven't seen yet. I would like this policy to include something about only using backward spoilers, or marking forward spoilers especially.
This is not about removing information, just about structuring it so that an episode listing can be used by people who haven't seen the entire show yet. I think this is a significant part of the audience for Wikipedia episode listings, and implementing this small guideline would not hurt the encyclopedic value of wikipedia, but rather add to it. risk 12:35, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
This is an important issue not adequately addressed in existing guidelines. — Aldaron • T/ C 18:52, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I looked at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction) (WP:WAF) today and decided to have a go at writing a compliant out-of-universe plot summary of An Unearthly Child. Of course the most significant thing about the plot of that Doctor Who story is that it introduces the four characters who formed the basis of the program for over a year. So I said that. And of course that's a "forward spoiler" because if you know that you know one member of the four characters didn't last more than a year. Wel that's too bad, because it's a good summary. -- Tony Sidaway 20:44, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
This whole paragraph is terrible:
According to Spoiler (media), "The term spoiler is associated with specialist Internet sites and in newsgroup postings." - Citing an unsourced article is not the best idea, especially when it uses weak phrases such as "is associated with"
Spoilers on the Internet are often precluded by a spoiler warning. - Okay, maybe so. Often? Prove it.
However, this is not done in scholarly reference works; - Okay, maybe so. But absolutely not done? Once again, disputable. And this line really doesn't help the guideline.
thus, spoiler warnings are generally avoided on Wikipedia. - This doesn't really directly follow from the previous statement. Something like "Wikipedia aims to be a scholarly encyclopedia" might help the logic here. --- RockMFR 23:11, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
We seem to keep changing the nutshell every few minutes. Perhaps that is a good indication that the guideline hasn't matured to the point to be summarized in just a couple of lines. But here is another possible suggestion
Farix ( Talk) 00:11, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
This seems too short of a guideline to need a nutshell box. -- Ned Scott 02:05, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I've restored the nutshell (how did that get deleted)? I encountered the wording:
Previously this had read:
The latter made more sense in context, so I've restored it. -- Tony Sidaway 05:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
This guideline implies that there is a preferred way of reading - without knowing the ending ahead of time. Not everyone reads that way. Many people, for example, flip to the end of mysteries in order to figure out the end before they read the rest of the book. Wikipedia should not privilege one kind of reading practice over another in its guidelines. Awadewit Talk 14:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Although it doesn't seem to have been raised here as a problem, someone has removed the following statement:
As it's the core of this guideline, obviously removing it without discussion was an error, so I've restored it. -- Tony Sidaway 15:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I've changed this to make it simpler. I fail to see how the presence of spoiler warnings or otherwise could affect NPOV anyway. -- DrumCarton 21:37, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Dolly_zoom appears to run into problems with the guideline as it is a non fiction article with mention of spoilers for various films yet to remove that many spoilers would probably disimprove the article .
Any Comments . Garda40 16:14, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, let's deal with the basics first. Should that section be there? Yeah. The article would not be comprehensive without a number of examples. The only one that might be spoiler-ish is the Goodfellas one. The explanation of the plot here definitely seems reasonable. A spoiler tag here would be incredibly useless, so I think the guideline holds up here. --- RockMFR 17:25, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Why is this in the guideline? This completely goes against Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages. Yes, a good editor will provide reasons for every edit; however, it is not required. If someone disagrees with your edit, THEN you should provide compelling reasons. --- RockMFR 17:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
People keep saying that spoiler tags are non-scholarly, or non-encyclopaedic. Can I suggest that as an example of a source which does aim to be scholarly and encyclopaedic, we might consider the film journal Sight and Sound, backed by the British Film Institute? I can't help but notice, looking at the articles of record they've put online, eg for The Lives of Others or Zodiac, that each one starts with a plot summary, headed Synopsis, and the first thing it does is to give the warning: Our synopses give away the plot in full, including surprise twists.
The other thing that is perhaps notable is that those plot summaries give a straight, "in-universe" summary of what is seen on screen, with analysis and discussion held over to the review which follows. It seems to me this model may be helpful for WP also - in particular wrt neutral point of view and verifiability concerns, by separating out material which can be verified from the work itself, from comment and analysis which may need to be supported by other sources.
Of course, quite correctly per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction) (WP:WAF), it is important that the article as a whole present a detached and analytical "out-of-universe" perspective. But as the S&S articles demonstrate, a straight unvarnished summary of what is seen is entirely compatible with retaining this critical distance, particularly when it is clearly sectioned off and headlined "Synopsis" – or, in our case, "Plot Summary". Jheald 01:23, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I would like to comment on the following sentence:
“ | Spoiler warnings are usually inappropriate in articles discussing classical works of literature, poetry, film, theatre, and other fields. | ” |
Some people in this world might not have read classical works. For example, I am a freshman, and I have not read Romeo and Juliet until this year. We wouldn't want to spoil the development of the plot to the 8th graders, would we? While classical works are most famous for their plots, students might be google searching the web to learn about their writing style or publication and audience reaction.-- Ed ¿Cómo estás? 18:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
When I use a search engine rather than getting to this site first, I come across many commercial sites which have lifted their text direct from this and decorate it with advertisements. I think that the problem of spoilers is so significant that one of those sites will surely come up with the idea of putting spoiler warnings into all the places where it is being removed from this one. So is this decision mere precursory for the arrival of a competing site? Despite all the touting, Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia – the amusements of popular culture are traditionally beneath the purview of such works, and spoiling them therefore is likewise not going to be done.
[My own experience with spoilers is that I read Alva Rogers's Requiem for Astounding (on the shelves in the high school library) and it ruined all the plot lines of the golden-age science fiction stories for me (the Lensman, Foundation, Baldy, and Gallegher series, as well as the works of A. E. van Vogt) because the stories were out of print. But worse than this was the magazine "Protoculture Addicts", an anime fan magazine put out by people who had access to an entire series years before it became legally available in the West. It had pictures of anime characters, which attracted one to read the text, where there were spoilers.] Sobolewski 19:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Just to get everyone's attention, please update this to guideline providing a permanent link to the demonstration of consensus for future reference. In six years, when we all are gone, people will ask "Where is the consensus for this?" And yes, this is happening right now with new users not understanding, in example, the naming policy (and despite my sarcasm and irony, I like having links to demonstrate consensus handy). -- ReyBrujo 05:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
As I understand it, Wikipedia aims to provide an encyclopediac reference for users looking for information. There are three types of information-searchers Wikipedia needs to cater for: -Those who are looking for a simple "what is it?" about something (and with fictional media NOT necessarily learn the major plot points) -Those who are looking for a particular detail or fact about something -Those who wish to do detailed research on a topic, and gain all the info Wikipedia has about it. Removing spoiler tags and bringing all the important essentially prohibits the first group from using Wikipedia in relation to works of fiction or media. First category users who have not used wikipedia before will come and quickly get burned, and learn not to Wikipedia any more for that sort of search. However, if we DO have spoiler tags, we cater for Category 1 users, whilst still serving the interests of Category 2 and 3 users. Kargath64 07:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Removing the spoilers is bad in many cases. Some of us like to find out a little about something, without necessarily getting the plot and ending ruined for us. -- MacRusgail 16:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
"If knowing the plot of a fictional work ruins it for you, please avoid reading encyclopedia articles about works you haven't viewed or read." - what happens if I want to know if I'd like something, without knowing what the ending is? That's why they have blurb on the back of books, and music/film recordings.--
MacRusgail
16:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
To those in favour of removal of the spoiler template, do not go on deleting sprees until consensus is reached here and at the RfC.
Remember
Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point !
Kargath64
03:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for purging so many of those unnecessary spoiler tags. Very rarely is there a reason to include a spoiler tag. They almost always appear in sections already identified in some ways as revealing plot, therefore the tag is redundant far more often than not. The tag invokes POV by saying that one part of plot information is more spoilable than another. Any criteria attempting to make use objective will only violate restrictions against arbitrary inclusion criteria. Thank you, thank you! Doczilla 05:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm consistently flabbergasted when I see that someone has added a detailed plot summary days, if not weeks in advance of a movie being released. I think this is a very valid time to use the spoiler warning tag even in the plot section, because who in their right mind would expect someone to have access to any REAL spoilers before the movie is even available for public consumption? This happened most recently with Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End, which had a lengthy synopsis in place over a week before the movie hit theaters. I think we should allow this exception to continue to be a place where warnings are kept in effect. -- Bishop2 13:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
As one who is in the obvious "minority" opposed to the wholesale removal of spoiler tags, my feeling on the subject is if they're going to be banned in one instance they may as well be banned utterly -- as in the template being deleted and everything. You can't have half-measures. And then, when people start complaining about either a) unwarned spoilers appearing in articles or b) articles being damaged by having to be written around spoilers, maybe the issue will be revisited. And for the record I resent the whole "this has consensus" thing -- no one asked me and I didn't even know about the issue until my Watchlist started to be filled by the deletions being made by a single editor. 23skidoo 14:24, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
If it is to be left up to consensus on each article, then the thousands of spoiler warning deletions should be reverted (by the person who did them, who has access to the scripts he used to delete them.) These deletions were made without consulting consensus on the individual articles--they were made wholesale.
And making massive deletions and saying "I won't accept consensus for the original situation unless you change the article back" is a form of opt-out. We really have no business forcing 5000 or 10000 or whatever articles to run through an opt-out gauntlet where we say "interested parties must take positive action just for us to leave this article alone". Ken Arromdee 06:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Warning: Your probability of death may be increased by taking this drug for pain.
Warning: Your enjoyment of this packaged entertainment may be reduced by learning the following designed details.
Just a question - on a number of pages, this one for example, we have solution tags (and sometime spolier tags when they should be solution tags). Anyone know if there's a debate on the removal of them on the same premise? Pedro | Chat 15:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Down to 4 - perhaps it is time to rewrite the remaining articles and get rid of the template. Kusma ( talk) 11:44, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I've nominated a slew of duplicate spoiler templates and one disclaimer for deletion tonight. You can find most of them at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 June 1 with an earlier nomination at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 May 30#Template:Sgspoiler. This also doesn't count the half-dozen or so duplicate spoiler templates that Ned Scott redirected instead of put up for deletion. -- Farix ( Talk) 02:31, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I've removed this pending worthwhile arguments for its inclusion. The two arguments advanced so far have been very weak. The first, that we don't set hard rules or 'white lines' in guidelines, is a principle not followed elsewhere in the article, specifically the section which says that classics should not (usually) have spoilers. Most Wikipedia guidelines do set hard rules. Imagine if WP:WEB had 'compelling reasons' instead of actual criteria.
The second, that these things should be hammered out on talk pages, sounds superficially reasonable, except that it was a principle totally ignored by the anti-spoiler brigade in their mass removal campaign.-- Nydas (Talk) 08:01, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
What to do with this template. I really don't really see a need for it and it falls under WP:NDT. It's not a "spoiler warning" in the way that spoiler has been traditionally defined. I also see a lot of redundancy with how this template is used.
The justification behind the template has more to do with protecting the content from magicians who want to keep their trade secrets...well...secret, then to warn the reader. It also gives editors of magic articles an excuse to violate WP:NOT#HOWTO. Both of these makes it a bit harder to go out and delete the templates outright like we are doing with various spoiler and solutions templates.
Bottom line, the template is more a disclaimer then a "spoiler warning". But spoiler warnings are also a form of disclaimer, so I guess that point is moot. The question is, does the infrequent exception for spoiler warnings also apply to magic secrets? -- Farix ( Talk) 19:40, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
...but these two just takes the cake:
Yes folks, we have spoilers on amusement park rides. It would be somewhat amusing if it wasn't down right ridicules. -- Farix ( Talk) 02:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
It does make sense to me, some rides can have stories or surprising endings. When a new ride is opened, I don't want to see a video of it, I want to experience it myself, I don't want to be told of what happens. -- blm07 03:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I guess its hard for some people to understand that theme park rides and films can actually have a story. -- blm07 20:56, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure there are a lot of these complaints here now concerning the removal of spoiler warnings from plots. But give me a minute to express my views anyway:
AAAARGGGHHH!!!! The stupidity of it hurts! You're seriously going to drive people away from Wikipedia just because you want to act professional? NO!
Look. I know that encyclopedias don't have spoiler warnings. But since when do you look up a book in Britannica and get a whole plot summary? Wikipedia is beyond the point where it should try to emulate other encyclopedias. What is the point of imitating them, anyway? I'll tell you: it's to establish ethos. You can't gain the public's respect for an encyclopedia if it's written informally. But Wikipedia has long since gained much of the public's respect. And if you're trying to attract the doubters by sneaking ending details onto them when they don't want them, it's a bad idea. Let me repeat: IT'S A BAD IDEA!!!!! I am obsessed with Wikipedia. I don't contribute much, but I use it for every question I have. And now, I promise you, I will never, ever look up anything that has a plot in it if I haven't read/watched it. Often, there's something I hear allusions to all the time. Star Wars, for instance. Believe it or not, I've never seen anything but Episode IV. It's clearly a huge part of pop culture. I tried to learn a little about it, without spoiling anything (I plan on watching it some day), and I hit a spoiler in the first paragraph! What am I supposed to do? What about things other than movies, which are easy enough to watch? What if someone wants to know the whole big deal about Harry Potter, then finds out that Dumbledore dies before they even start reading? It would ruin so much for them. The entire purpose of Dumbledore is that he is infinitely powerful and wise. How would it be to read the series knowing, all along, that he really isn't so infinitely powerful, and that he's going to end up dying? This is driving me away from Wikipedia, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Clearly, you can tell that I'm angry. I'm reminded irresistibly of a friend of mine who always tries to act professional. He does ridiculous things, just because he's seen the pros do it. For example, when he pitches (in baseball), he nods and shakes his head at the catcher, as if he's getting signals on what to pitch. It's ridiculous! And now I see Wikipedia--Wikipedia!--following in his footsteps.
Tell me, please, what the purpose is of explaining a plot to someone who doesn’t want to know it. The answer: nothing. Now, tell me, please, what the purpose is of explaining a plot to someone who already knows it. The answer? Nothing! You’re driving away the people who could benefit from some details, but not all, and you’re giving unnecessary information to people who already know the plot! Wikipedia is becoming Cliffs Notes! No use to people who have read the book, dangerous to those who haven’t and care about it. The only people left are those who don’t care about the book. That makes enough sense to fill a buckyball. And no more.
Let me copy and paste from the FAQ page, with emphasis added: What is Wikipedia? Wikipedia is an online free-content encyclopedia that anyone can edit. Wikipedia co-founder Jimmy Wales has described Wikipedia as "an effort to create and distribute a multilingual free encyclopedia of the highest quality to every single person on the planet in their own language." Wikipedia exists to bring knowledge to everyone who seeks it.
Again: Wikipedia does not exist to imitate Britannica. It is not an attempt to make an encyclopedia that’s almost as good as Britannica, but free. It’s something completely new to this world. It is, as Jimbo has said at other times, an attempt to bring all of human knowledge together in one place. This is done in encyclopedic form, but this does not mean we’re trying to copy other encyclopedias. Britannica, World Book, and so many others exist to give a brief overview of a topic. Wikipedia goes the next step and gives in-depth information. So why, why, are we saying that “it is unusual for scholarly reference works (of the sort that Wikipedia aspires to be) to warn for spoilers when discussing fictional works”? An encyclopedia doesn’t have the kind of spoilers Wikipedia has, because it doesn’t have the depth. Literary journals don’t have spoiler warnings, because it’s assumed that the readers of literary journals are going to be well-read, and they aren’t going to be going to a journal to learn about the cultural impact of a book; they’ll only be going to read analyses of a plot they’ve already read. So why are we trying to pretend to be one of these “scholarly reference works” when aren’t one of them? We’re different, and we shouldn’t pretend that we aren’t. Remember this: Be bold! Twilight Realm 00:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Additionally, if someone could point me in the right direction of where to debate this further, I'd be quite thankful. Twilight Realm 00:41, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Good grief. We're *still* saying things like "If you are that naive to not understand that a section called "Plot" will contain spoilers, then you deserve to be spoiled," when that has been addressed over and over again?
First of all, it isn't true that every "Plot" section will contain spoilers. Not every plot element is a spoiler. A plot section that contains only non-spoiler plot elements would need no warning.
Second, a spoiler warning doesn't have to go at the top of a section. Even if every plot section did contain spoilers, putting a spoiler warning in them would be useful--since if the plot section has the spoiler at the end, we could put the warning near the end of the section and people who don't want to read spoilers will know they can read the first part.
Third, even if every plot section contained spoilers, consistency of user interface design may require redundancy. It makes a lot of sense to put spoiler warnings on everything that contains spoilers, even if the user could already figure that out for some of them, because using the same format (spoiler warnings) for the information everywhere, rather than a different format (spoiler warnings outside plot sections, section titles in plot sections) simplifies the user experience. We don't remove the word "Tuesday" from the calendar on the grounds that everyone who reads a calendar can already figure out that the day after Monday is Tuesday. Ken Arromdee 04:48, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Unless I'm mistaken, I consistently see the word "should" used by the spoiler-tag removal cabal. That's a big clue. The aforementioned example of a new (to Wikipedia) user finding a movie page on Google, reading the plot, then suddenly finding out " Darth is Luke's father!," " Holland is dead!," " the girlfriend is really a guy!," may be caught unawares of the detail, before enjoying the film. A classic example is the dreaded review New Yorker by Pauline Kael of Planet of the Apes, in which she divulged the surprise ending (Taylor finds the Statue of Liberty, indicating that he's not on a distant planet, but back on Earth, and the "ancient, destructive civilization" was his own). Many scorn Kael for having leaked this surprise, thereby (ahem) spoiling the surprise for anyone who hadn't seen, but wanted to see, the film. The same standard, IMHO, applies here. Describe the work in a real-world perspective, but if we divulge surprises in the interests of complete coverage, do the reader a courtesy of alerting that "reading further will spoil surprises." Stop applying made up rules about what WP "should be," or "ought to be." Those are personal agendae, and have no place in a "anyone can edit" community. Off the soapbox,.... David Spalding ( ☎ ✉ ✍) 14:34, 6 June 2007 (UTC)