"current treshold for "bot rate": two edits per minute" Where has 2 edits per minute come from? stub sorters using a tabbed browser can do double this, I have seen pywiki bots do over 10 edits a minute without causing any trouble. This threshold is way too low. On a different note, I dont think this page is needed at all, it is far too prescriptive, and the parts that are useful can just be added to Wikipedia:Bots. Martin 14:40, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
So, let's see if I got this right:
We're now neatly banning:
Do you have any idea just how useless "official policy" is in editorial terms? Most material governing actual article appearance is, at most, a formal guideline—and sometimes not even that! Kirill Lok s h in 15:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but this essay here is just an extended form of "botophobia" (err, sorry - semi-botophobia). "Whether the tasks are fully automated, or humanly-supervised for every edit makes no difference for the semi-bot definition, only a repetitive pattern of edits as defined above" this is not helpful. I can assure you that a lot of tasks are repetitive. Defining these tasks as semi-botting is not needed. We do not need this red tape here. "humanly-supervised for every edit" this makes a lot of a difference to me. If I carefully check each diff before saving, this is completely different compared to some bot without UI cycling through a list of articles. If I use an UI tool and carefully check each diff before saving, then it's definitely not a bot, not even a semi-bot. I reject this essay here. Unneeded and misleading. Have you ever used AWB actually? Did you notice that it has an edit window? Please be aware that I do use this edit window, so my AWB edits even contain a certain amount of manual edits. Maybe just someone crossed one of your walled gardens using AWB. Please be aware that nobody owns articles here. If you do not want your edits having edited by others, then don't contribute on this wiki. Current procedures as laid out are completely sufficient. If the community rejects some serial edits, the editor is quickly informed and will learn very fast if his edits are unwanted. Please assume good faith. There are people that care on a broader base about Wikipedia. It is not sufficient to concentrate on a handful featured articles only. It is also the average quality of articles that counts. If you have a problem with an edit done using AWB, talk with the editor, as for any other edit. But please be aware that some specialist edits are a bit harder to understand from the standpoint of a singular article. So please be kind and assume good faith on the part of AWB users. This is a wiki. You are not alone. -- Ligulem 18:14, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Considering the only semi-bot you mention in the draft is AWB, I'll focus in on that:
I understand that this policy isn't exclusively for AWB, but, if it was, why need this whole page? I agree with Martin - it's too formulaic. 1, 3, and 4 I've addressed, and 2 can be changed by programming AWB to interactively change edit summaries as it edits - or, more simply, just leaving the edit summaries alone. So, IMHO, the rules listed on WP:AWB alone should suffice. -- M @ th wiz 20 20 16:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think this is right at all. The current text is ambiguous, but I can't see how it would work under any interpretation. The text of the proposal currently states:
Some sort of policy/guideline for software-assisted human-monitored edits is needed, but we need to alter this proposal a bit. SeventyThree( Talk) 17:36, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
This is entirely uneeded as many of the guidelines here are layed out on the pages of the tools that fall under the category of semi-bots and much of this seems to be pure paranoia against semi-bot tools. Pegasus1138 Talk | Contribs | Email ---- 21:11, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Is there anybody else that wants / needs this essay here besides User:Francis Schonken? If not, I would say rejected per WP:SNOW. Francis, please move it to under your user space. -- Ligulem 22:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Francis, your logic is wrong. You state that because I am against this guideline, that any edit I do to this is per se in bad faith. This is assuming bad faith on your part! I wonder how you want to declare this to be consensus, as consensus is what is needed to make a guideline. You might have gathered that I'm not the only one opposing your essay. I see no consensus here. I see only you reverting edits from me and others. I have seen this pattern of behaviour already ("power guidelining"). Trying to establish guideline the way you do it. You simply disregard input from AWB users, as you deem them to be the evil ones. That's not consensus. By the way, on Wikipedia there isn't such a big difference between guideline and policy. Both are (1) actionable and (2) authorized by consensus. I'm an inclusionist on articlespace. But not on guidelines/policies. -- Ligulem 23:21, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the definition of semi bot works so well, saying that it's an account is misleading at best since most people use their accounts mostly for non semi-bot work so it should be entirely redefined as the action of doing one of these things or better yet a style of doing one of these things since they can (in theory) be done in a non semi bot way i.e. if they happen as part of a bigger edit or are just random improvements in one or two articles (thus not qualifying as repetitive. Pegasus1138 Talk | Contribs | Email ---- 17:03, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
This proposal is overly bureaucratic and unnecessary. The use of editorial assistance devices is necessary to keep up with the sheer volume of content in the encyclopedia; this proposal seeks to cripple editors from being able to do necessary tasks efficiently simply because one person objected to one type of easily-automated tasks for reasons having nothing to do with encyclopedic merit. Kelly Martin ( talk) 13:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm in agreement. As long as actions aren't fully-automated they really are no different than any other action. Each action is being verified by human eyes and that human is entirely responsible. A real-world equivalent would be if the only tools you were allowed were your hands and you had to get progressively tougher licenses to use screwdrivers and then electric screwdrivers. As long as the screwdriver doesn't turn in screws automatically when no one is around it's really just an extension of a person. I believe gun laws also back this up ... guns don't kill people, people kill people. -- Cyde Weys 20:36, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Despite the fact that some users are stubbornly refusing to let this die as nature intended this proposal is quite dead, there is a strong consensus against it (vs what's needed which is a consensus for it so that it can go into implementation) and there are many many many threads of comments of how this is an awful idea, this together shows that this is an unworkable proposal that has been rejected by the editors who have commented on it bar a small number who support it. As such I have marked it rejected. Pegasus1138 Talk | Contribs | Email ---- 20:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I just had a thought, although some tools like vandalfighter and AWB force a tracer note onto edit summaries stating that's what being used many javascript tools either don't or indeed can't by their very nature do that (do to the fact that anyone can mod their own version of the js because it's by nature open to all) so this policy while it may technically apply to tools like popups is in reality unenforceable for any js plug and/or many other tools. Pegasus1138 Talk | Contribs | Email ---- 13:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
v
The tool (semi-bot) that I have been working on, Citation Tool has reached a usable and useful state, I believe. The purpose of this tool is several fold, but the main (and implemented) goal is the detection and guided correction of errors in m:Cite.php markup.
As of this exact moment, the tool does the correct diagnosis of two types of errors. By later today, it should also be able to propose specific modified text that corrects the errors (sometimes requiring operator decisions). The web page for the tool also links back to the edit page for a given corrected article. Notice that any modification made based on the advice of Citation Tool is made under the user's own WP username. The two types of problems currently identified are:
These type of errors seem to occur quite frequently "in the wild".
The proposed changes made by Citation Tool do not change the referencing style or technology used on a page (currently: plans are underway to aid insertion of Harvard references as an adjunct to footnotes, where a mixed style is appropriate). So as far as I can see, the changes proposed by the tool should be non-controversial. The only possible issue I can see is that editors might disagree about whether a currently hidden footnote content is or is not better than the one that had been visible; but that's a pretty regular editorial/content issue, per article.
Well... the other issue is that the tool might be buggy, since it hasn't been banged on by anyone other than me yet. That's why I'd appreciate some other people using it, and paying attention to results. If the diagnosis or proposed solution seems to be wrong for certain pages, that matter needs to be identified and fixed. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 21:41, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Why do we even need this guideline? (I also have issues with the content, but even its existence seems pointless to me) People running automated programs on their account without appropriate safeguards already get blocked if the bot goes haywire, people who make disruptive edits using semi-auto software like AWB, popups or vandal fighter can already be blocked under the blocking policies that apply to editors. So how will having a specific guideline for the use of semi-auto edit programs be any more useful than, say, having a guideline for editing using a tabbed browser? Cynical 13:36, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
A basic problem with this proposal is that the nutshell (which talks about serialisation, regardless of means) is entirely at odds with the contents, which is largely concerned with the means. As the title also strongly implies said means, I think the nutshell has to be reworked accordingly. Alai 17:33, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I edited this as per the above, and was reverted. As the proposal is called "semi-bots", one might suppose it's saying something about software; one might also assume the same on the basis of the lengthy discussion of software in the proposal. This needs to be fixed one way or another (or via the third option of the "rejected" tag, if it's making no progress towards attracting any degree of consensus). Alai 04:57, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Operators of semi-bots (whether separate account or not) should be reachable and responsive on an en:wiki talk page. Removing remarks given about the semi-bot's behaviour before ascertaining that the poster of the remark considers the remark properly handled is considered the same as "not being responsive". Following on the posting of a remark on the appropriate user talk page, a response is expected within minutes of the next edit by the semi-bot. Not being responsive may lead to the blocking of the semi-bot account, for which the blocking admin should leave a note on the contact page for the semi-bot. Alternatively, and this is preferred where possible, the semi-bot software is temporarily disabled for that account, equally with an appropriate note to the semi-bot operator. For example, AWB has such functionality at Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage#Enabled users.
Unlike bots, semi-bot operators are not required nor even specifically encouraged to take a separate user account for semi-bot operations. Nor does the Wikipedia:Sock puppet guideline discourage the use of a second account for serialized operations.
So, the decision is up to the semi-bot operator. The reason for this section is to list pro's and con's for both approaches, in order to help a semi-bot operator to make his/her choice:
If a semi-bot operator decides to use a separate account it is recommended not to use "bot" in the semi-bot's account name (in order not to confuse with bots that have a listed and agreed upon job description). Instead it is recommended to use an account name in the vein of:
(derivative of) user's account name + "Task"
Where "Task" can be either just the word task, or a word that indicates a task. For example linkcheck could be a "Task" name for a semi-bot that checks whether external links are still live.
Development of auxiliary software is usually not as strongly supervised as the development of the features and implementation of the MediaWiki software itself. Some suggestions:
Semi-bot tools include (see also Wikipedia:Types of bots):
There was a lot of worthwhile description taken out in the recent edits. I don't think the guideline should be paired down nearly so much. It's one thing to say the concern isn't strictly software itself, fair enough. But readers should still have some sense that it is likely to be autmated tools that are often associated with repetitive edits; and the stuff about advice on the use of semi-bots is important. LotLE× talk 03:32, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Anyway, I revert to my last version (apart leaving out the "bot" definition of "non-humanly supervised software", which is wrong guideline/policy page). One half of me says, finally people start to feel at home in this guideline proposal, and start to collaborate, the other half of me says: let's now not get too rash either. The definition of what it is, is centered on repetitive stuff, but also includes typical semi-bot software; the recommendations of the guideline both regard things that have to do with serializing in general, and as well with practical recommendations regarding auxiliary software. It's supposed to be a practical guideline in the first place, and some of the practical stuff taken out by 73, was actively used by wikipedians when 73 decided to take it out. Really, the naming issue is a minor decision, after we get the content of this proposal as workable as we can get it. -- Francis Schonken 06:35, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with both your halves, Francis: that it's being edited to try and fix the more glaring problems is not evidence that it's anywhere near consensus; and your reversions of two different attempts to fix same, is just stalling the process further. If you really want guidelines on both things, please refactor it into two separate proposals. At this point I'm highly inclined to revert to either my last version, or to 73's last version; I'm not entirely sure (nor especially bothered) which, as either represent a significant improving clarification in the scope (admittedly in entirely different directions). Lulu, what was removed was hardly just giving "some sense" of the use of software tools (I'd suggest avoiding the term "automation", lest further confusion with actual bots creep in), it was scads of "essay" and "detailed legislation" written explicitly in terms of serialisation by software assistance. Alai 16:36, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I've merged some of my chages back in, and they seem to have been accepted - good! I think the next move is to remove some of the stuff not relating to the guideline itself. What should go depends on the scope of the guideline. I would like to see the last two sections ( Wikipedia:Semi-bots#Recommendations for semi-bot operators and Wikipedia:Semi-bots#Recommendations for auxiliary software developers) removed. They are interesting, and possibly good as an essay somewhere else, but they have nothing to do with serialised editing. The guideline is about serialised editing, which naturally overlaps with auxiliary software/semi-bots because they make it easier. What do people think? SeventyThree( Talk) 15:00, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
(heading back left) I really don't want a sub-page. I don't mind too much whether it ends up all-in-one or split into two different guidelines, but a subpage seems like a vague mess of both ideas.
Alai's edit to the nutshell (specificly mentioning software) was reverted, so I thought I'd try to remove most of the mentions and see where we ended up. I still think that the guideline could stand alone like that, with hardly a mention of tools. You're convincing me though - if the wording's right, it could work. SeventyThree( Talk) 21:00, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems that there hasn't been much discussion here recently. If nobody objects, I will orphan this page and add the {{ historical}} tag. ~ MDD 46 96 14:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
As I categorize more articles, I see more and more clearer how much careful work was casually wrecked by the alphabeticising bots. There are many examples where people added hidden text to encourage people to sort the categories (nearly always with occupational categories at the top) which have been made a nonsense of the bots. Then there are all the cases where hidden comments have been added to explain individual categories, but these have been sundered from the relevant category. This applies to hundreds of Oscar winners and a good number of other articles. Chicheley 12:42, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, indeed maybe we could use the semi-bot proposal as a support to ask the AWB people to remove the "category alphabetisation" feature from the software. -- Francis Schonken 00:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
If this proposal were seen to be going anywhere, then that would be fine and dandy; the trouble is that it's not under active revision, there's no process underway to establish consensus, and indeed both of these have been actively resisted. So I can't see that it can accurately be described as anything other than historical/rejected, at least unless those things change in relatively short order. I'm still of the belief that it should be rescoped, and possibly split, for the sakes of clarity and manageability: there's issues to do with "serialisation" that have little to do with software tools, and issues to do with software that have little to do with editing speedy, etc. Like eating the proverbial elephant, this is likely to be more feasible a small bit at a time. Alai 01:15, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
What's the problem with
For the practicability of this guideline, any user account using software which enhances the speed with which edits can be made (that is: faster than editing exclusively with a standard webbrowser installation), and that is not listed at Wikipedia:Bots, can be labeled a semi-bot.
in the definitions section?
I have no problem with this. -- Francis Schonken 09:44, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I only intended to remove the link to Radiokirk's copy of my script, as it doesn't seem helpful (there are numerous copies of my tools on wikipedia, some with minor variations and some verbatim copies). I seem to have edited an old revision by mistake, though, but I don't have any particular views on the skirmish currently taking place. Lupin| talk| popups 13:25, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
The Page moves section feels a bit like a personal attack to me. -- HiddenKnowledge ( talk) 00:09, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
"current treshold for "bot rate": two edits per minute" Where has 2 edits per minute come from? stub sorters using a tabbed browser can do double this, I have seen pywiki bots do over 10 edits a minute without causing any trouble. This threshold is way too low. On a different note, I dont think this page is needed at all, it is far too prescriptive, and the parts that are useful can just be added to Wikipedia:Bots. Martin 14:40, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
So, let's see if I got this right:
We're now neatly banning:
Do you have any idea just how useless "official policy" is in editorial terms? Most material governing actual article appearance is, at most, a formal guideline—and sometimes not even that! Kirill Lok s h in 15:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but this essay here is just an extended form of "botophobia" (err, sorry - semi-botophobia). "Whether the tasks are fully automated, or humanly-supervised for every edit makes no difference for the semi-bot definition, only a repetitive pattern of edits as defined above" this is not helpful. I can assure you that a lot of tasks are repetitive. Defining these tasks as semi-botting is not needed. We do not need this red tape here. "humanly-supervised for every edit" this makes a lot of a difference to me. If I carefully check each diff before saving, this is completely different compared to some bot without UI cycling through a list of articles. If I use an UI tool and carefully check each diff before saving, then it's definitely not a bot, not even a semi-bot. I reject this essay here. Unneeded and misleading. Have you ever used AWB actually? Did you notice that it has an edit window? Please be aware that I do use this edit window, so my AWB edits even contain a certain amount of manual edits. Maybe just someone crossed one of your walled gardens using AWB. Please be aware that nobody owns articles here. If you do not want your edits having edited by others, then don't contribute on this wiki. Current procedures as laid out are completely sufficient. If the community rejects some serial edits, the editor is quickly informed and will learn very fast if his edits are unwanted. Please assume good faith. There are people that care on a broader base about Wikipedia. It is not sufficient to concentrate on a handful featured articles only. It is also the average quality of articles that counts. If you have a problem with an edit done using AWB, talk with the editor, as for any other edit. But please be aware that some specialist edits are a bit harder to understand from the standpoint of a singular article. So please be kind and assume good faith on the part of AWB users. This is a wiki. You are not alone. -- Ligulem 18:14, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Considering the only semi-bot you mention in the draft is AWB, I'll focus in on that:
I understand that this policy isn't exclusively for AWB, but, if it was, why need this whole page? I agree with Martin - it's too formulaic. 1, 3, and 4 I've addressed, and 2 can be changed by programming AWB to interactively change edit summaries as it edits - or, more simply, just leaving the edit summaries alone. So, IMHO, the rules listed on WP:AWB alone should suffice. -- M @ th wiz 20 20 16:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think this is right at all. The current text is ambiguous, but I can't see how it would work under any interpretation. The text of the proposal currently states:
Some sort of policy/guideline for software-assisted human-monitored edits is needed, but we need to alter this proposal a bit. SeventyThree( Talk) 17:36, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
This is entirely uneeded as many of the guidelines here are layed out on the pages of the tools that fall under the category of semi-bots and much of this seems to be pure paranoia against semi-bot tools. Pegasus1138 Talk | Contribs | Email ---- 21:11, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Is there anybody else that wants / needs this essay here besides User:Francis Schonken? If not, I would say rejected per WP:SNOW. Francis, please move it to under your user space. -- Ligulem 22:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Francis, your logic is wrong. You state that because I am against this guideline, that any edit I do to this is per se in bad faith. This is assuming bad faith on your part! I wonder how you want to declare this to be consensus, as consensus is what is needed to make a guideline. You might have gathered that I'm not the only one opposing your essay. I see no consensus here. I see only you reverting edits from me and others. I have seen this pattern of behaviour already ("power guidelining"). Trying to establish guideline the way you do it. You simply disregard input from AWB users, as you deem them to be the evil ones. That's not consensus. By the way, on Wikipedia there isn't such a big difference between guideline and policy. Both are (1) actionable and (2) authorized by consensus. I'm an inclusionist on articlespace. But not on guidelines/policies. -- Ligulem 23:21, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the definition of semi bot works so well, saying that it's an account is misleading at best since most people use their accounts mostly for non semi-bot work so it should be entirely redefined as the action of doing one of these things or better yet a style of doing one of these things since they can (in theory) be done in a non semi bot way i.e. if they happen as part of a bigger edit or are just random improvements in one or two articles (thus not qualifying as repetitive. Pegasus1138 Talk | Contribs | Email ---- 17:03, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
This proposal is overly bureaucratic and unnecessary. The use of editorial assistance devices is necessary to keep up with the sheer volume of content in the encyclopedia; this proposal seeks to cripple editors from being able to do necessary tasks efficiently simply because one person objected to one type of easily-automated tasks for reasons having nothing to do with encyclopedic merit. Kelly Martin ( talk) 13:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm in agreement. As long as actions aren't fully-automated they really are no different than any other action. Each action is being verified by human eyes and that human is entirely responsible. A real-world equivalent would be if the only tools you were allowed were your hands and you had to get progressively tougher licenses to use screwdrivers and then electric screwdrivers. As long as the screwdriver doesn't turn in screws automatically when no one is around it's really just an extension of a person. I believe gun laws also back this up ... guns don't kill people, people kill people. -- Cyde Weys 20:36, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Despite the fact that some users are stubbornly refusing to let this die as nature intended this proposal is quite dead, there is a strong consensus against it (vs what's needed which is a consensus for it so that it can go into implementation) and there are many many many threads of comments of how this is an awful idea, this together shows that this is an unworkable proposal that has been rejected by the editors who have commented on it bar a small number who support it. As such I have marked it rejected. Pegasus1138 Talk | Contribs | Email ---- 20:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I just had a thought, although some tools like vandalfighter and AWB force a tracer note onto edit summaries stating that's what being used many javascript tools either don't or indeed can't by their very nature do that (do to the fact that anyone can mod their own version of the js because it's by nature open to all) so this policy while it may technically apply to tools like popups is in reality unenforceable for any js plug and/or many other tools. Pegasus1138 Talk | Contribs | Email ---- 13:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
v
The tool (semi-bot) that I have been working on, Citation Tool has reached a usable and useful state, I believe. The purpose of this tool is several fold, but the main (and implemented) goal is the detection and guided correction of errors in m:Cite.php markup.
As of this exact moment, the tool does the correct diagnosis of two types of errors. By later today, it should also be able to propose specific modified text that corrects the errors (sometimes requiring operator decisions). The web page for the tool also links back to the edit page for a given corrected article. Notice that any modification made based on the advice of Citation Tool is made under the user's own WP username. The two types of problems currently identified are:
These type of errors seem to occur quite frequently "in the wild".
The proposed changes made by Citation Tool do not change the referencing style or technology used on a page (currently: plans are underway to aid insertion of Harvard references as an adjunct to footnotes, where a mixed style is appropriate). So as far as I can see, the changes proposed by the tool should be non-controversial. The only possible issue I can see is that editors might disagree about whether a currently hidden footnote content is or is not better than the one that had been visible; but that's a pretty regular editorial/content issue, per article.
Well... the other issue is that the tool might be buggy, since it hasn't been banged on by anyone other than me yet. That's why I'd appreciate some other people using it, and paying attention to results. If the diagnosis or proposed solution seems to be wrong for certain pages, that matter needs to be identified and fixed. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 21:41, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Why do we even need this guideline? (I also have issues with the content, but even its existence seems pointless to me) People running automated programs on their account without appropriate safeguards already get blocked if the bot goes haywire, people who make disruptive edits using semi-auto software like AWB, popups or vandal fighter can already be blocked under the blocking policies that apply to editors. So how will having a specific guideline for the use of semi-auto edit programs be any more useful than, say, having a guideline for editing using a tabbed browser? Cynical 13:36, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
A basic problem with this proposal is that the nutshell (which talks about serialisation, regardless of means) is entirely at odds with the contents, which is largely concerned with the means. As the title also strongly implies said means, I think the nutshell has to be reworked accordingly. Alai 17:33, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I edited this as per the above, and was reverted. As the proposal is called "semi-bots", one might suppose it's saying something about software; one might also assume the same on the basis of the lengthy discussion of software in the proposal. This needs to be fixed one way or another (or via the third option of the "rejected" tag, if it's making no progress towards attracting any degree of consensus). Alai 04:57, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Operators of semi-bots (whether separate account or not) should be reachable and responsive on an en:wiki talk page. Removing remarks given about the semi-bot's behaviour before ascertaining that the poster of the remark considers the remark properly handled is considered the same as "not being responsive". Following on the posting of a remark on the appropriate user talk page, a response is expected within minutes of the next edit by the semi-bot. Not being responsive may lead to the blocking of the semi-bot account, for which the blocking admin should leave a note on the contact page for the semi-bot. Alternatively, and this is preferred where possible, the semi-bot software is temporarily disabled for that account, equally with an appropriate note to the semi-bot operator. For example, AWB has such functionality at Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage#Enabled users.
Unlike bots, semi-bot operators are not required nor even specifically encouraged to take a separate user account for semi-bot operations. Nor does the Wikipedia:Sock puppet guideline discourage the use of a second account for serialized operations.
So, the decision is up to the semi-bot operator. The reason for this section is to list pro's and con's for both approaches, in order to help a semi-bot operator to make his/her choice:
If a semi-bot operator decides to use a separate account it is recommended not to use "bot" in the semi-bot's account name (in order not to confuse with bots that have a listed and agreed upon job description). Instead it is recommended to use an account name in the vein of:
(derivative of) user's account name + "Task"
Where "Task" can be either just the word task, or a word that indicates a task. For example linkcheck could be a "Task" name for a semi-bot that checks whether external links are still live.
Development of auxiliary software is usually not as strongly supervised as the development of the features and implementation of the MediaWiki software itself. Some suggestions:
Semi-bot tools include (see also Wikipedia:Types of bots):
There was a lot of worthwhile description taken out in the recent edits. I don't think the guideline should be paired down nearly so much. It's one thing to say the concern isn't strictly software itself, fair enough. But readers should still have some sense that it is likely to be autmated tools that are often associated with repetitive edits; and the stuff about advice on the use of semi-bots is important. LotLE× talk 03:32, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Anyway, I revert to my last version (apart leaving out the "bot" definition of "non-humanly supervised software", which is wrong guideline/policy page). One half of me says, finally people start to feel at home in this guideline proposal, and start to collaborate, the other half of me says: let's now not get too rash either. The definition of what it is, is centered on repetitive stuff, but also includes typical semi-bot software; the recommendations of the guideline both regard things that have to do with serializing in general, and as well with practical recommendations regarding auxiliary software. It's supposed to be a practical guideline in the first place, and some of the practical stuff taken out by 73, was actively used by wikipedians when 73 decided to take it out. Really, the naming issue is a minor decision, after we get the content of this proposal as workable as we can get it. -- Francis Schonken 06:35, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with both your halves, Francis: that it's being edited to try and fix the more glaring problems is not evidence that it's anywhere near consensus; and your reversions of two different attempts to fix same, is just stalling the process further. If you really want guidelines on both things, please refactor it into two separate proposals. At this point I'm highly inclined to revert to either my last version, or to 73's last version; I'm not entirely sure (nor especially bothered) which, as either represent a significant improving clarification in the scope (admittedly in entirely different directions). Lulu, what was removed was hardly just giving "some sense" of the use of software tools (I'd suggest avoiding the term "automation", lest further confusion with actual bots creep in), it was scads of "essay" and "detailed legislation" written explicitly in terms of serialisation by software assistance. Alai 16:36, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I've merged some of my chages back in, and they seem to have been accepted - good! I think the next move is to remove some of the stuff not relating to the guideline itself. What should go depends on the scope of the guideline. I would like to see the last two sections ( Wikipedia:Semi-bots#Recommendations for semi-bot operators and Wikipedia:Semi-bots#Recommendations for auxiliary software developers) removed. They are interesting, and possibly good as an essay somewhere else, but they have nothing to do with serialised editing. The guideline is about serialised editing, which naturally overlaps with auxiliary software/semi-bots because they make it easier. What do people think? SeventyThree( Talk) 15:00, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
(heading back left) I really don't want a sub-page. I don't mind too much whether it ends up all-in-one or split into two different guidelines, but a subpage seems like a vague mess of both ideas.
Alai's edit to the nutshell (specificly mentioning software) was reverted, so I thought I'd try to remove most of the mentions and see where we ended up. I still think that the guideline could stand alone like that, with hardly a mention of tools. You're convincing me though - if the wording's right, it could work. SeventyThree( Talk) 21:00, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems that there hasn't been much discussion here recently. If nobody objects, I will orphan this page and add the {{ historical}} tag. ~ MDD 46 96 14:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
As I categorize more articles, I see more and more clearer how much careful work was casually wrecked by the alphabeticising bots. There are many examples where people added hidden text to encourage people to sort the categories (nearly always with occupational categories at the top) which have been made a nonsense of the bots. Then there are all the cases where hidden comments have been added to explain individual categories, but these have been sundered from the relevant category. This applies to hundreds of Oscar winners and a good number of other articles. Chicheley 12:42, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, indeed maybe we could use the semi-bot proposal as a support to ask the AWB people to remove the "category alphabetisation" feature from the software. -- Francis Schonken 00:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
If this proposal were seen to be going anywhere, then that would be fine and dandy; the trouble is that it's not under active revision, there's no process underway to establish consensus, and indeed both of these have been actively resisted. So I can't see that it can accurately be described as anything other than historical/rejected, at least unless those things change in relatively short order. I'm still of the belief that it should be rescoped, and possibly split, for the sakes of clarity and manageability: there's issues to do with "serialisation" that have little to do with software tools, and issues to do with software that have little to do with editing speedy, etc. Like eating the proverbial elephant, this is likely to be more feasible a small bit at a time. Alai 01:15, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
What's the problem with
For the practicability of this guideline, any user account using software which enhances the speed with which edits can be made (that is: faster than editing exclusively with a standard webbrowser installation), and that is not listed at Wikipedia:Bots, can be labeled a semi-bot.
in the definitions section?
I have no problem with this. -- Francis Schonken 09:44, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I only intended to remove the link to Radiokirk's copy of my script, as it doesn't seem helpful (there are numerous copies of my tools on wikipedia, some with minor variations and some verbatim copies). I seem to have edited an old revision by mistake, though, but I don't have any particular views on the skirmish currently taking place. Lupin| talk| popups 13:25, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
The Page moves section feels a bit like a personal attack to me. -- HiddenKnowledge ( talk) 00:09, 23 November 2014 (UTC)