Thank you both for accepting me as the mediator. I'm Ryan, I live in the UK and I've been here since October 2006, I became an admin in March 2007, and hopefully I can help you both address your differences. There's a couple of issues that we need to address before we start. Where would you like the mediation to occur? We can do it here, on this very page - this would allow everything to be kept on-wiki. Another option is to do it on IRC, this is a more private venue and would allow issues to be discussed in real time. The final option is to do it on the mediation committee's own private wiki, this is an external wiki run by the mediation committee and would be a private venue for everyone to discuss there issues. It's entirely up to you guys as to where you feel most comfortable discussing the dispute. So if it's OK with everyone, let's decide this first, then we can move on to decide what you both wish to have mediated. Please comment below as to where you wish the mediation to take place. Thanks again, Ryan Postlethwaite 21:49, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you WikipeanProlific for mentioning timezone differences. My timezone is central european, an hour apart from UK. I accept WikipeanProlific's first choice of this page for dialog about the first issue (below). Below is text lifted from the Fuel Injection discussion page to which I append a comment.
Cuddlyable3 09:36, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
So everyone is clear what exactly is being mediated, please could both parties make a short statement (75-150 words) on the issues they would like to see discussed in this mediation. There's no need to go into details at this point, just simply put down the issues you wish to be mediated. I've created headings for you to do this under. Ryan Postlethwaite 17:04, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with: Should this [1] version of the mechanical diagram on the fuel injection page be used or should this [2] version be used? WikipedianProlific (Talk) 23:46, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Should this [3] version of the mechanical diagram on the fuel injection page be used or should this [4] version be used? Cuddlyable3 17:56, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Please make an opening statement of the dispute. Talk about your side of the story and your reasoning behind your idea. Also, please discuss any compromises you are willing to make. Ryan Postlethwaite 08:12, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
I replaced the diagram [5] with an animated one [6] that shows the solenoid winding and has removed unhelpful lines and legends. Done on 6 March 2007 but it was reverted by WikipedianProlific on 18 March 2007. Cuddlyable3 17:38, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Firstly I've added subtitles to this section for each of us, I hope no-one minds, it was just to keep this organised etc and easy to read. Onto buisness, as cuddlyable3 describes there were some initial problems with the static diagram, for example the 'fuel' label was originally called gas, which is an americanism and not ideal for a technical illustration like this. In that time cuddlyable3 redrew it and created the animated version based on the static. I also finally got round to redrawing the static version. I wouldn't say a reversion was made as there was the first diagram (with errors) then the animated diagram and then the revised static diagram without errors. In any case we're left with the decision of which diagram to use in order to close the debate. I like the animated version in principle, but my issue with it is in its quality and accuracy, this is becase of 3 main things;
I may have an early solution to the problem however; I was getting geared up to tactically debate this issue but the other day (hence the several day delay in stating my issues) it occured to me tha the reason we can't agree on a diagram is because they are both equally bad, my static one isn't trully orthographic but looks like it ought to be, and it carries less mechanical information than the animated one does, but then the animated version has the above issues. So i mulled it over for a while and came to the conclusion that I think what we need is something which is clearly better, then we will be able to agree obviously. So I have drawn a third diagram which is shown to the side, spending much more time on it to get the attention to detail. This time it is actually orthographic, doesnt have any of the previous animated quality issues and I hope is accurate. Infact the only issues I believe may exist are with technical accuracy, so my question to Cuddlyable3, the mediator and anyone else following this who knows is are you happy with this third diagram, do you believe it is technically accurate, is it high enough quality? are you happy for us to use this diagram?
There are a few small things to note about it;
I look forward to hearing both of your thoughts on this. thanks. WikipedianProlific (Talk) 22:15, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you both for your comments. I believe the main issue with the animated version of the image was the quality of the image, and not particularly an objection to the image being animated. This was a route which I was going to suggest, attempting to find someone to create a better quality animated version if that was quality was the major factor with image. I'm interested to hear both sides thoughts on the new image, is this version one that both would be happy with? Ryan Postlethwaite 22:20, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
WikipedianProlific states: ..in reality the plunger sucks back and then pushes forward forcing a fine spray of fuel out of the end. He is mistaken. No suction occurs in the fuel injector depicted. It is a valve not a pump.
WikipedianProlific states: In the animated version [ [7] there seems to be explusion[sic] of fuel as the plunger retracts..
The actual operating sequence is:
I agree that the 3-step animation looks ambiguous and that this is room for improvement.
WikipedianProlific himself summarised his edits on 17 March 2007 to Fuel_injection as "reverting to old image" and "reverted to old diagram", which he here contradicts by "I wouldn't say a reversion was made".
If WP has now explicitly lost interest in addressing the issue of version [8] or [9] on which he sought mediation and instead seeks aproval of an incomplete and flawed work in progress [10] then the mediator should declare the mediation failed. Cuddlyable3 09:47, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
In response I think first we probably need to ignore how we got into this situation in order to move forward else we'll probably end up descending back into the petty name calling again, so whether it was or wasn't a reversion isn't the issue I dont think. Instead I think it lies in the quality and accuracy of which diagram we use. Both old diagrams have some problems with accuracy and quality. This third diagram is in my opinion a composite/hybrid of the best of both the static and animated diagrams, in better quality, at a larger size and generally more aesthetic... or so I was hoping. I have replaced the preliminary version I had up with a more finalised version with labels on it. Perhaps this will make it easier to follow and less of an "incomplete and flawed work".
I think we should also consult an informed third party in this field to make sure we have the running order of events right, and to see if they agree on the mechanics of it. I would recommend we ask Scheinwerfermann if he would be willing to do this, as he is very active on the fuel injection article and appears to be knowledgable in the subject field. In the mean time I have ammended my diagram to show the running order of events as you suggest it is. Do you now agree that the sequence of events is correct? WikipedianProlific (Talk) 10:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
P.S. if your seeing the old version of the diagram with no labels your browser may have cahced it. In internet explorer press F5 on the image page and it will recache it.
I now see that the major problem with the original version that WikipedianProlific suggested is the order of events in the animation. For everyone to be happy here, it's best that we first decide on what is the correct sequences of events for the fuel intection process. We have a number of options here, we could seek an outside opinion on the issue from another user that is familiar with the process (obviously, we would need someone that you both agree on), or we could discuss the issue between ourselves here. Firstly, let's see if this can be resolved here. Quite simply, do you agree that the sequence of events is as follows?
Ryan Postlethwaite 17:14, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
The sequence i) to iv) is correct. I can add some information:
I shall answer to the mediator only on any question concerning the mediation issue. Cuddlyable3 19:00, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I beliece Cuddlyable3 is probably right about the sequence and its now the one that is shown in the current '3rd diagram option'. Although in practical terms the diagram has this simplified down to two combined steps:
and then these two just repeat.
This is done in two steps because there are only two 'phases/modes' this type of fuel injector can be in - solenoid on or solenoid off. I think the older animated version appears to be ambigous because it approached these 2 steps with 3 or more images which complicated the cycle. Its easier to approach it as either on, or off if you see what i mean. There is one additional change I plan to make to the current diagram with everyones support which is to replace the label "fuel" with "Pressurised Fuel", this is important because the fact the fuel is under pressure is what causes it squirt out of the other end of the injector when the valve opens, if it werent under pressure it would just dribble out.
I am happy with the 3rd diagram option with the exception of the minor labelling change noted above. I wait to see what Cuddlyable3 makes of it and if they are happy for us to use this diagram then we can move forward from there and implement these plans. WikipedianProlific (Talk) 18:11, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
It looks like we're in agreement that fuel injection works in the following way;
Now, the sticking point here seems to be the actual sequence of events that would be shown in the animation. Currently, there is a two phase animation. May I ask the parties thoughts here on creating an animation image which clearly shows all four phases in fuel injection as shown above? (I say four, but it would be three phases, reverting back to phase one). Ryan Postlethwaite 21:43, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
We could do, the problem is though it would be slightly deceptive. Heres an analogy, imagine an animation of a light bulb and switch in a simple circuit. Heres the sequence...
You see where the problem lies between the second and third image? In reality the moment the switch is pressed the bulb turns on, but yet the diagram has a delay. This is the same for the injector, i mean obviously theres a nanosecond delay for the electorns in the light switch circuit to reach the bulb, and likewise a nanosecond (if even that?) delay for fuel to be ejected from the spray tip of the injector, but the injector can fire many times per second, so any delay is literally unmeasurably small, so a 3-4 stage animation is deceptive in my opinion, it also seemed to have become the source of confussion in the first animated diagram. It seems better to me to have fuel expelled as soon as the solenoid is on. I am very open on the mater if thats a compromise we deicde, I can easily ammend it to a 3 stage diagram if need be. Personally though I feel that as the injector can only be doing one of two things...i.e be on, or be off, that therefore is what the diagram should show. WikipedianProlific (Talk) 22:52, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
In response to these requirements:
1) Shows fuel routing? --- I think its fairly obvious in this diagram it goes in one end and comes out the other squirty end ;)
2) Identifies separate valve and atomiser parts? --- Okay I can add a label to the atomiser parts.
3) Identifies solenoid winding realistically? --- If you mean drawing little circles on the solenoid then I can do that. I think its fairly obvious which way the solenoid winds though and I'd rather not complicate the diagram if possible.
4) Clarifies spring-loaded valve? --- Not sure what really needs clarifying, its a spring loaded valve...
5) Identifies moving and stationary parts of valve? --- Surely thats identified by the parts which move and the parts which don't... thats the point of an animated diagram.
6) Identifies pintle? --- I dont think its really nesessary, it will just complicate the diagram.
7) Shows position of injector in engine inlet path? --- Well now your talking about basically a cross sectional diagram of an entire engine . I am happy to draw a new and seperate diagram, something like [11] maybe but if we do that to this diagram it will just become information overload.
Overall I feel the new animated diagram would go on the article nicely, it is as far as we can see technically accuracte so it cant be faulted that way, and its worth remembering that neither the early static or animated diagrams covered 'requirements' 4, 6 and 7 as they were essentially similar to this new version. I think this new animated diagram would even have a shot at featured picture status. WikipedianProlific (Talk) 10:37, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I am encouraged to see that the 7-point checklist is useful. Below are my scores point-by-point for the two diagrams in this mediation, where score=1 means perfectly fulfilled. (This scheme allows fractional scoring, and anyone can extend the table by adding their own scores.)
[12] | [13] | |
---|---|---|
1. | 0.1 | 0.1 |
2. | 0 | 0.3 |
3. | 0 | 0.7 |
4. | 0.1 | 0.8 |
5. | 0 | 0.7 |
6. | 0 | 0 |
7. | 0 | 0 |
Sum | 0.2 | 2.6 |
Cuddlyable3 09:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Ryan Postlethwaite please remind us, on what issue did we accept you as mediator? Cuddlyable3 13:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry to see you withdraw from this process as I had thought this might be a genuinely good way for us to resolve the central part of a long standing dispute with each other. I would like to tempt you back into the mediating process but I am not going to try as I feel we both have extremely different ideas on what we want from this. I would however like to point out that at the end of the day it is you walking away from the mediation not myself or the mediator who has done a good job of controlling the debate and providing information and a structure to our discussions in my opinion. I certainly hope that this doesnt reflect badly on our mediator who in my opinion is well suited to the task and will do an excellent job in future cases, this is simply a matter than cannot be mediated. Ultimately you are leaving I think because you do not feel there is support on your side of the arguement. But if you entered this process expecting the mediation team to berate me for user conduct and reinforce your good behaviour then that was unrealistic as that is not what the mediators do, even if I was in the wrong and you were in the right. WikipedianProlific (Talk) 21:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Thank you both for accepting me as the mediator. I'm Ryan, I live in the UK and I've been here since October 2006, I became an admin in March 2007, and hopefully I can help you both address your differences. There's a couple of issues that we need to address before we start. Where would you like the mediation to occur? We can do it here, on this very page - this would allow everything to be kept on-wiki. Another option is to do it on IRC, this is a more private venue and would allow issues to be discussed in real time. The final option is to do it on the mediation committee's own private wiki, this is an external wiki run by the mediation committee and would be a private venue for everyone to discuss there issues. It's entirely up to you guys as to where you feel most comfortable discussing the dispute. So if it's OK with everyone, let's decide this first, then we can move on to decide what you both wish to have mediated. Please comment below as to where you wish the mediation to take place. Thanks again, Ryan Postlethwaite 21:49, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you WikipeanProlific for mentioning timezone differences. My timezone is central european, an hour apart from UK. I accept WikipeanProlific's first choice of this page for dialog about the first issue (below). Below is text lifted from the Fuel Injection discussion page to which I append a comment.
Cuddlyable3 09:36, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
So everyone is clear what exactly is being mediated, please could both parties make a short statement (75-150 words) on the issues they would like to see discussed in this mediation. There's no need to go into details at this point, just simply put down the issues you wish to be mediated. I've created headings for you to do this under. Ryan Postlethwaite 17:04, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with: Should this [1] version of the mechanical diagram on the fuel injection page be used or should this [2] version be used? WikipedianProlific (Talk) 23:46, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Should this [3] version of the mechanical diagram on the fuel injection page be used or should this [4] version be used? Cuddlyable3 17:56, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Please make an opening statement of the dispute. Talk about your side of the story and your reasoning behind your idea. Also, please discuss any compromises you are willing to make. Ryan Postlethwaite 08:12, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
I replaced the diagram [5] with an animated one [6] that shows the solenoid winding and has removed unhelpful lines and legends. Done on 6 March 2007 but it was reverted by WikipedianProlific on 18 March 2007. Cuddlyable3 17:38, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Firstly I've added subtitles to this section for each of us, I hope no-one minds, it was just to keep this organised etc and easy to read. Onto buisness, as cuddlyable3 describes there were some initial problems with the static diagram, for example the 'fuel' label was originally called gas, which is an americanism and not ideal for a technical illustration like this. In that time cuddlyable3 redrew it and created the animated version based on the static. I also finally got round to redrawing the static version. I wouldn't say a reversion was made as there was the first diagram (with errors) then the animated diagram and then the revised static diagram without errors. In any case we're left with the decision of which diagram to use in order to close the debate. I like the animated version in principle, but my issue with it is in its quality and accuracy, this is becase of 3 main things;
I may have an early solution to the problem however; I was getting geared up to tactically debate this issue but the other day (hence the several day delay in stating my issues) it occured to me tha the reason we can't agree on a diagram is because they are both equally bad, my static one isn't trully orthographic but looks like it ought to be, and it carries less mechanical information than the animated one does, but then the animated version has the above issues. So i mulled it over for a while and came to the conclusion that I think what we need is something which is clearly better, then we will be able to agree obviously. So I have drawn a third diagram which is shown to the side, spending much more time on it to get the attention to detail. This time it is actually orthographic, doesnt have any of the previous animated quality issues and I hope is accurate. Infact the only issues I believe may exist are with technical accuracy, so my question to Cuddlyable3, the mediator and anyone else following this who knows is are you happy with this third diagram, do you believe it is technically accurate, is it high enough quality? are you happy for us to use this diagram?
There are a few small things to note about it;
I look forward to hearing both of your thoughts on this. thanks. WikipedianProlific (Talk) 22:15, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you both for your comments. I believe the main issue with the animated version of the image was the quality of the image, and not particularly an objection to the image being animated. This was a route which I was going to suggest, attempting to find someone to create a better quality animated version if that was quality was the major factor with image. I'm interested to hear both sides thoughts on the new image, is this version one that both would be happy with? Ryan Postlethwaite 22:20, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
WikipedianProlific states: ..in reality the plunger sucks back and then pushes forward forcing a fine spray of fuel out of the end. He is mistaken. No suction occurs in the fuel injector depicted. It is a valve not a pump.
WikipedianProlific states: In the animated version [ [7] there seems to be explusion[sic] of fuel as the plunger retracts..
The actual operating sequence is:
I agree that the 3-step animation looks ambiguous and that this is room for improvement.
WikipedianProlific himself summarised his edits on 17 March 2007 to Fuel_injection as "reverting to old image" and "reverted to old diagram", which he here contradicts by "I wouldn't say a reversion was made".
If WP has now explicitly lost interest in addressing the issue of version [8] or [9] on which he sought mediation and instead seeks aproval of an incomplete and flawed work in progress [10] then the mediator should declare the mediation failed. Cuddlyable3 09:47, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
In response I think first we probably need to ignore how we got into this situation in order to move forward else we'll probably end up descending back into the petty name calling again, so whether it was or wasn't a reversion isn't the issue I dont think. Instead I think it lies in the quality and accuracy of which diagram we use. Both old diagrams have some problems with accuracy and quality. This third diagram is in my opinion a composite/hybrid of the best of both the static and animated diagrams, in better quality, at a larger size and generally more aesthetic... or so I was hoping. I have replaced the preliminary version I had up with a more finalised version with labels on it. Perhaps this will make it easier to follow and less of an "incomplete and flawed work".
I think we should also consult an informed third party in this field to make sure we have the running order of events right, and to see if they agree on the mechanics of it. I would recommend we ask Scheinwerfermann if he would be willing to do this, as he is very active on the fuel injection article and appears to be knowledgable in the subject field. In the mean time I have ammended my diagram to show the running order of events as you suggest it is. Do you now agree that the sequence of events is correct? WikipedianProlific (Talk) 10:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
P.S. if your seeing the old version of the diagram with no labels your browser may have cahced it. In internet explorer press F5 on the image page and it will recache it.
I now see that the major problem with the original version that WikipedianProlific suggested is the order of events in the animation. For everyone to be happy here, it's best that we first decide on what is the correct sequences of events for the fuel intection process. We have a number of options here, we could seek an outside opinion on the issue from another user that is familiar with the process (obviously, we would need someone that you both agree on), or we could discuss the issue between ourselves here. Firstly, let's see if this can be resolved here. Quite simply, do you agree that the sequence of events is as follows?
Ryan Postlethwaite 17:14, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
The sequence i) to iv) is correct. I can add some information:
I shall answer to the mediator only on any question concerning the mediation issue. Cuddlyable3 19:00, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I beliece Cuddlyable3 is probably right about the sequence and its now the one that is shown in the current '3rd diagram option'. Although in practical terms the diagram has this simplified down to two combined steps:
and then these two just repeat.
This is done in two steps because there are only two 'phases/modes' this type of fuel injector can be in - solenoid on or solenoid off. I think the older animated version appears to be ambigous because it approached these 2 steps with 3 or more images which complicated the cycle. Its easier to approach it as either on, or off if you see what i mean. There is one additional change I plan to make to the current diagram with everyones support which is to replace the label "fuel" with "Pressurised Fuel", this is important because the fact the fuel is under pressure is what causes it squirt out of the other end of the injector when the valve opens, if it werent under pressure it would just dribble out.
I am happy with the 3rd diagram option with the exception of the minor labelling change noted above. I wait to see what Cuddlyable3 makes of it and if they are happy for us to use this diagram then we can move forward from there and implement these plans. WikipedianProlific (Talk) 18:11, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
It looks like we're in agreement that fuel injection works in the following way;
Now, the sticking point here seems to be the actual sequence of events that would be shown in the animation. Currently, there is a two phase animation. May I ask the parties thoughts here on creating an animation image which clearly shows all four phases in fuel injection as shown above? (I say four, but it would be three phases, reverting back to phase one). Ryan Postlethwaite 21:43, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
We could do, the problem is though it would be slightly deceptive. Heres an analogy, imagine an animation of a light bulb and switch in a simple circuit. Heres the sequence...
You see where the problem lies between the second and third image? In reality the moment the switch is pressed the bulb turns on, but yet the diagram has a delay. This is the same for the injector, i mean obviously theres a nanosecond delay for the electorns in the light switch circuit to reach the bulb, and likewise a nanosecond (if even that?) delay for fuel to be ejected from the spray tip of the injector, but the injector can fire many times per second, so any delay is literally unmeasurably small, so a 3-4 stage animation is deceptive in my opinion, it also seemed to have become the source of confussion in the first animated diagram. It seems better to me to have fuel expelled as soon as the solenoid is on. I am very open on the mater if thats a compromise we deicde, I can easily ammend it to a 3 stage diagram if need be. Personally though I feel that as the injector can only be doing one of two things...i.e be on, or be off, that therefore is what the diagram should show. WikipedianProlific (Talk) 22:52, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
In response to these requirements:
1) Shows fuel routing? --- I think its fairly obvious in this diagram it goes in one end and comes out the other squirty end ;)
2) Identifies separate valve and atomiser parts? --- Okay I can add a label to the atomiser parts.
3) Identifies solenoid winding realistically? --- If you mean drawing little circles on the solenoid then I can do that. I think its fairly obvious which way the solenoid winds though and I'd rather not complicate the diagram if possible.
4) Clarifies spring-loaded valve? --- Not sure what really needs clarifying, its a spring loaded valve...
5) Identifies moving and stationary parts of valve? --- Surely thats identified by the parts which move and the parts which don't... thats the point of an animated diagram.
6) Identifies pintle? --- I dont think its really nesessary, it will just complicate the diagram.
7) Shows position of injector in engine inlet path? --- Well now your talking about basically a cross sectional diagram of an entire engine . I am happy to draw a new and seperate diagram, something like [11] maybe but if we do that to this diagram it will just become information overload.
Overall I feel the new animated diagram would go on the article nicely, it is as far as we can see technically accuracte so it cant be faulted that way, and its worth remembering that neither the early static or animated diagrams covered 'requirements' 4, 6 and 7 as they were essentially similar to this new version. I think this new animated diagram would even have a shot at featured picture status. WikipedianProlific (Talk) 10:37, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I am encouraged to see that the 7-point checklist is useful. Below are my scores point-by-point for the two diagrams in this mediation, where score=1 means perfectly fulfilled. (This scheme allows fractional scoring, and anyone can extend the table by adding their own scores.)
[12] | [13] | |
---|---|---|
1. | 0.1 | 0.1 |
2. | 0 | 0.3 |
3. | 0 | 0.7 |
4. | 0.1 | 0.8 |
5. | 0 | 0.7 |
6. | 0 | 0 |
7. | 0 | 0 |
Sum | 0.2 | 2.6 |
Cuddlyable3 09:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Ryan Postlethwaite please remind us, on what issue did we accept you as mediator? Cuddlyable3 13:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry to see you withdraw from this process as I had thought this might be a genuinely good way for us to resolve the central part of a long standing dispute with each other. I would like to tempt you back into the mediating process but I am not going to try as I feel we both have extremely different ideas on what we want from this. I would however like to point out that at the end of the day it is you walking away from the mediation not myself or the mediator who has done a good job of controlling the debate and providing information and a structure to our discussions in my opinion. I certainly hope that this doesnt reflect badly on our mediator who in my opinion is well suited to the task and will do an excellent job in future cases, this is simply a matter than cannot be mediated. Ultimately you are leaving I think because you do not feel there is support on your side of the arguement. But if you entered this process expecting the mediation team to berate me for user conduct and reinforce your good behaviour then that was unrealistic as that is not what the mediators do, even if I was in the wrong and you were in the right. WikipedianProlific (Talk) 21:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)