In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with Rktect 11:37, 10 July 2007 (UTC). If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 14:17, 9 July 2007 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 11:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC).
Following up on a discussion on the ANE 2 discussion list, Yitzhak Sapir at Hebrew Bible and ANE History Lists Commentary blog notes the way the place name [ Jerusalem] is written in the Akkadian of Amarna tablet EA 287.
- He even has a picture from The Encyclopedia of El Amarna Research Tool website. He correctly notes that the place name is written with the "City" determinative URU before urusalem. At least this is true in five of the seven instantiations of the place name in the Amarna tablets.
- EA 287:25: URUú-ru-sa-lim (I believe this is the example illustrated in Yitzhak's post)
- EA 287:46: URUú-ru-sa-limKI
- EA 287:61: ú-ru-sa-limKI
- EA 287:63: URUú-ru-sa-limKI
- EA 289:14: URUú-ru-sa-limKI
- EA 289:29: URUú-ru-sa-limKI
- EA 290:15: ú-ru-sa-limKI
The above quote suggests that the place determinative is for uru-sa-lim. More likely its a reduplication URU URU ___ KI meaning "peace" det. the place of places.
That suggests that it was at one time the northern border of the dijadi which was moved north in the Time of Thutmosis I to the city of Kadesh in the mountains. (This was originally a Phoenician city (Gades - Cadiz, Carthage, Kodesh) which was a city of refuge on the border of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Israel before any of those existed as countries.
Like Kadesh Jerusalem may have had the same function as a refuge city and also as a place where people would feel safe to meet for purposes of trade. In the 18th Dynasty the border between retnu (the watershed of the Orantes) and the dijadi (the watershed of the Jordan) was at the common headwaters of the Orantes, Litani and Jordan whose mountain watersheds people still fight over today.
The Akkadian name should go first since thats the name of the place in its earliest history, even after it becomes part of an Egyptian province in the 18th and 19th Dynasty as referenced in the Amarna letters. Rktect 10:44, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
The primary source is not the blog post, its ANE 2 discussion list, a monitored academic list server. If you aren't familiar with the server, the names, or the issue there is little left to say. Rktect 01:32, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
The archaeologists seem to think that Jerusalem was settled centuries earlier than 2000BCE. Anyways, I'm no expert, so if you provide text that cites a reliable secondary source ( WP:RS) about the origins of the name, then we can insert it into the article. You can discuss this further if you wish on talk:Jerusalem. nadav ( talk) 05:40, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Please don't consider this answer to your question WP:SYN. I recognize its a little complicated. Its important to recognise the determinative is placed so as to surround the name so you want to strip the determinative to get the name. After the basics from John Halloran (Sumerian) and John Heise (Akkadian) the focus shifts to when Jerusalem is written in this form. The answer to that would be in the Amarna letters, from c 1450- c 1350 BC
- uru(2)(ki), iri, rí; iri11: city, town, village, district [URU archaic frequency: 101;
- concatenation of 5 sign variants; UNUG archaic frequency: 206; concatenates 3 sign variants].
signs used
The following either discuss or demonstrate the proper usage for writing the name of a place in Akkadian which itself borrows from the even earlier Sumerian.
Origins of the name Jerusalem See the photo of the cuneiform name of Jersualem in the Amarna letters and read URU Uru šalim KI
KI Cuneiform KI (Borger 2003 nr. 737; U+121A0 𒆠) is the sign for "earth", but also "place location". It is also read as GI5, GUNNI (=KI.NE) "hearth", KARAŠ (=KI.KAL.BAD) "encampment, army", KISLAḪ (=KI.UD) "threshing place" and SUR7 (=KI.GAG). In Akkadian orthography, it functions as a determiner for toponyms and has the syllabic values gi, ge, qi and qe.
[ Akkad]
Akkad (Sumerian Agade), (Biblical Accad), was a city and its surrounding region (Sumerian URI.KI or KIURI) [ Names of Jerusalem] Urušalim
Salem Biblical Hebrew שלם š-l-m "whole", "complete" in the idiomatic sense of "at peace" Akkadian Urušalim Assyrian Uršalimmu (Uru and Ur are really cognates of the Hebrew Ir ("city of") and should not be confused with the syllables Jeru- in the name Jerusalem.)
URU__KI is Akkadian for place, the second Uru (Jeru) means city Urušalim URUUrušalim KI literally gives determinative URU = place - Uru= a city - šalim = peace - Ki of the earth (it refers to the Akkadian goddess Ninhursag
removed references
Your recent edits to Aram-Naharaim ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs), Aram (Biblical region) ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs), Baal-zephon ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) and Jerusalem ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) show clear original research with certain bias behind them. Further edits of this kind will lead to your account being blocked once again. If you wish to raise issues with individual articles, please do so on that article's talk page, and please do so in a manner that leads to discussion with other editors rather than by making sweeping statements. — Gareth Hughes 14:57, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Aram-Naharaim or "Aram of Two Rivers," is a region that is mentioned five times in the Hebrew Bible. It is commonly identified with Nahrima mentioned in three tablets of the Amarna correspondence as a geographical description of the kingdom of Mitanni. It was the land in which the city of Haran lay. According to one rabbinical Jewish tradition, Ur Kasdim, said to be the birthplace of Abraham, was also situated in Aram-Naharaim. [1]
The actual rivers referred to are not explicitly named in the Bible, although it is generally agreed that the first was the Upper Euphrates (called N-h-r-n by the Egyptians). The name Nahrima in the Amarna letters denoted the region of the Upper Euphrates and its tributaries citation needed - the Balikh and Khabur.
Both Josephus and the Septuagint translate the name as Mesopotamia. Ancient writers elsewhere used the name "Mesopotamia" for the land between the Tigris and Euphrates. According to the Book of Jubilees, when the entire Earth was divided among the sixteen grandsons of Noah, Aram, the son of Shem received as an inheritance for his offspring, lands bordered by the Euphrates and the Tigris (Jubilees 9:5); it also associates the city of Ur Kesed not with the descendants of Aram, but rather with those of Arphaxad, his brother, who was Abram's ancestor.
However the usage of the Hebrew name "Aram-Naharaim" does not match the general usage of "Mesopotamia", the former being used exclusively for a northern region. Moreover the translation of the name as "Mesopotamia" was not consistent - the Septuagint also uses a more precise translation "Mesopotamia of Syria" as well as "Rivers of Syria". Josephus refers to the subjects of Chushan, king of Aram Naharaim, [2] as "Assyrians". [3]
Hebrew has a distinct name Ashur for the region of Assyria containing the Tigris. Aram Naharaim lay west of Ashur as it contained Haran. Haran itself lies on the west bank of the Balikh, east of the Upper Euphrates. The traditional Jewish location of Ur Kasdim (at Edessa) and the Balikh itself lie west of the Khabur implying that the second river was understood to be the latter by those maintaining this tradition.
...I added this to the article...
A Myth exists to the effect that Aram-Naharaim, land of the two rivers, is synonomous with Mesopotamia therefore the two rivers are the Tigris and Euphrates. Despite this we can observe that most references to Aram are to places located south of Damascus. This can be done using Bible Pages and references in them to Aram outside Mesopotamia which are consistently south of Damascus.
Most of the references below can be found on this map. Aram This illustrates the territory of Asher, Dan, Nephtali and Zebulon on the headwaters of the Jordan river connecting to the southern end of the territory of the Nahrin at Kadesh on the Orontes. The people the Egyptians called the Nah-araim or Nahrin are also known as the Mittani.
Tracking this down the two rivers are a watershed in the mountains, at a place still called the Golan Heights, serving Aram. Carchemish is north of Hamath, Hamath, is north of Damascus, Damascus is north of Aram, Aram, is east of Sideon, Tyre, and Hazor
The Bible passages refering to Aram show that the only way you could stretch Aram north toward the Euphrates would be to go through Damascus, Hamath, and Carchemish.
The headwaters of the Orontes river bordering Aram on the West does stretch that far north through the territory of the Nahrin. Their cities were originally Alalah on the Orontes east of Ugarit, east to Haran and Hama, Quatna and Kadesh moving south or upstream to the headwaters of the Orontes east of the Amurru whose city is Hazor. While this is not near the Tigris is does touch on the Euphrates. Biblical accounts are much more consistent in placing Aram south west of Damascus.
The location southwest of Damascus is referenced both in Biblical and Egyptian campaign accounts.
While the lands and kings of the Nahrin do occupy lands to the north; as given in "The Cambridge Atlas of Mesopotamia" (CAM) and their cities include Alalah on the Orontes east of Ugarit, and Hama, Quatna, and Kadesh moving upstream to the headwaters east of the Amurru, the best definition for this territory probably isn't Mesopotamia.
Their lands are bounded to the west by the Amurru and Mukish, to the North by Kizzuwatna with Tarsus and Charchemish, and to the east by Nuhase which touches on the Euphrates but borders the Mitanni with the cities of Ebla and Allepo. To the south they eventually extended their territory down the Jordan as far as Meggido during the Egyptian 18th Dynasty which may have caused them to snap up Aram and its territory. The above referenced lands southwest of Damascus are mentioned in the Amarna letters and in the Biblical Conquest as shown in CAM p135 as Aram.
This is the name of a small district lying north of Arabia, north-east of Palestine, east of Phoenicia, south of the Taurus range, and west of the Tigris. It is generally supposed that the name points to the district as the 'Highlands,' though it may be from Aram the son of Shem, as above. The word occurs once untranslated in Num. 23: 7, as 'Aram' simply, from whence Balaam was brought, 'out of the mountains of the east;' but it is mostly translated Syria or Syrian. Thus we have -
- 1. ARAM-DAMMESEK, 2 Sam. 8: 5, translated 'Syrians of Damascus,' embracing the highlands of Damascus including the city. (Mount Hermon)
- 2. ARAM-MAACHAH, 1 Chr. 19: 6, translated 'Syria-maachah,' a district on the east of Argob and Bashan.
- Maacah (Codex Alexandrinus: Maacha, KJV: Maachah) is a biblical name with many references:
- Small Aramean kingdom east of the Sea of Galilee (I Chronicles 19:6). Its territory was in the region assigned to the half-tribe of Manasseh east of the Jordan. Maacah, its king, became a mercenary of the Ammonites in their war against David (II Samuel 10:6). It is probable that the city Abel of Beth-maachah in Naphtali (ib. xx. 15) derived its name from its relation to this kingdom and people.
- Bashan (Hebrew הבשן ha-Bashan, meaning "the light soil") is a biblical place first mentioned in Genesis 14:5, where it is said that Chedorlaomer and his confederates "smote the Rephaim in Ashteroth," where Og the king of Bashan had his residence. At the time of Israel's entrance into the Promised Land, Og came out against them, but was utterly routed
- (Numbers 21:33-35; Deuteronomy 3:1-7). This country extended from Gilead in the south to Hermon in the north, and from the Jordan river on the west to Salcah on the east. Along with the half of Gilead it was given to the half-tribe of Manasseh (Joshua 13:29-31). Golan, one of its cities, became a city of refuge (Joshua 21:27).
- Bashan just northeast of Chinnereth, the Golan heights.
- Argob, in Bashan, was one of Solomon's commissariat districts (1 Kings 4:13). The cities of Bashan were taken by Hazael (2 Kings 10:33), but were soon after reconquered by Jehoash (2 Kings 13:25), who overcame the Syrians in three battles, according to the prediction of Elisha (19). From this time Bashan almost disappears from history, although we read of the wild cattle of its rich pastures (Ezekiel 39:18; Psalms 22:12), the oaks of its forests (Isaiah 2:13; Ezekiel 27:6; Zechariah 11:2), and the beauty of its extensive plains (Amos 4:1; Jeremiah 50:19). Soon after the conquest, the name "Gilead" was given to the whole country beyond Jordan. After the Exile, Bashan was divided into four districts
- 3. ARAM-BETH-REHOB, 2 Sam. 10: 6, translated 'Syrians of Beth-rehob: cf. Judges 18: 28, a district in the north, near Dan.
- 4. ARAM-ZOBAH, 2 Sam. 10: 6, 8, translated 'Syrians of Zoba,' a district between and Damascus, but not definitely recognised.
- 5. ARAM-NAHARAIM signifying ' Aram of two rivers,' Gen. 24: 10; Deut. 23: 4; Judges 3: 8; 1 Chr. 19: 6, translated by some Greeks as ' Mesopotamia.' The two rivers are assumed to be the Euphrates and the Tigris but going to the geographic defitions the territory would be the highlands from whence the Orantes and Jordan rivers issue to the plain, and the region between the two rivers without extending to the far south.
Num. 32:41 And Jair the son of Manasseh went and took the small towns thereof, and called them Havoth-jair. Deut. 3:14 Jair the son of Manasseh took all the country of Argob unto the coasts of Geshuri and Maachathi; and called cthem after his own name, Bashan-havoth-jair, unto this day. Josh. 13:30 And their coast was from Mahanaim, all Bashan, all the kingdom of Og king of Bashan, and all the towns of Jair, which are in Bashan, threescore cities: 1 Kgs. 4:13 The son of Geber, in Ramoth-gilead; to him pertained the towns of Jair the son of Manasseh, which are in Gilead; to him also pertained the region of Argob, which is in Bashan, threescore great cities with walls and brasen bars:
Amos 6:2 Pass ye unto Calneh, and see; and from thence go ye to Hamath the great: then go down to Gath of the Philistines: be they better than these kingdoms? or their border greater than your border?
Zech. 9:2 And Hamath also shall border thereby; Tyrus, and Zidon, though it be very wise.
17:07, July 1, 2007 (hist) (diff) User talk:Rktect (→Warning) 17:06, July 1, 2007 (hist) (diff) User talk:Rktect (Warning)
You currently appear to be engaged in an
edit war. Note that the
three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the
three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be
blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content which gains a
consensus among editors.
Beit
Or
21:06, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
I haven't reverted anything, let alone 3 times. Actually I have just been editing and adding material. if you don't mind telling me, why don't you use the discussion page where I have been explaining what I'm doing and adding cites to discuss this. Rktect 21:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
I trust you do agree there is a difference between an edit which adds material and a revert which deletes it. User Jayjg has been stalking and reverting edits of everything I have added in the last week. I have not reverted in reciprocation but rather asked why on the discussion portion of the pages and on his user page. So far he has not been very responsive. I note from other comments that he does this to others rather often. In the case of the page on Deborah I think the comparison of historical references to the biblical account adds some depth to the page. If you disagree why not explain rather than repeatedly attempt revert me in the middle of an edit? Rktect 21:30, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
As frustrating as it sometimes can be, the policy on no original research specifically prohibits such inferable information. The point is highlighted especially in controversial subject matter like biblical studies, where there are many opinions involved. OR is one of the most important policies, and unfortunately it is also among the hardest to understand. I suggest you review it carefully, and if you have any questions, feel free to approach myself or the helpdesk. Tewfik Talk 17:27, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
You reverted this which is simply Exodus 2:2 and 1:10
Also according to the book of Exodus, Moses was born in a time of dynastic change in Egypt when the Sons of Israel had become numerous enough to raise concerns lest in a time of war they might take arms against Egypt
and this which is Exodus 2:15
According to the book of Exodus after this incident Moses made his way to Midian which lies directly across the Red Sea from Thebes which was Egypts capital at the time.
and this which is just a summary of Exodus 4-7
According to the book of Exodus, as a shepherd, Moses spends most of his life tending his Jethro's flocks while his brother Aaron is educated as a scribe and becomes a priest in Egypt with standing to speak in the royal court at Thebes.
All of this was just added reference from the Bible story which isn't in the story as it stands Rktect 19:18, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I have blocked you for 48 hours to give everyone a rest from your behaviour. Original research, argumentation, spurious complaints about those who oppose you, and frankly we don't need any of it. Guy ( Help!) 19:57, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
You have to stop inventing theories loosely based on a whole bunch of different sources; instead, you must cite someone who exactly states that theory. In your case, I recommend quoting what people say directly. Jayjg (talk) 18:08, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I've pointed him to that before. Jayjg (talk) 18:19, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I added a reference from Gardiner Egyptian Grammar, to the Ten Commandments page re: the meaning of the name Moses in Egyptian. I then went down to the bottom of the page to place the ISBN's went back up to the top and found the reference gone. For what its worth there was no Hebrew language in existence when the events of Exodus took place so what sense does it make to cite a Jewish Encyclopedia as to the meaning of the name in Hebrew? Lets exercise a little common sense and it will be a better encyclopedia. The following are kind of throwaway references just to show its common knowledge. The source I cited was Gardiners Egyptian Gramar.
Mesori also known as Mesra is the twelfth month of the Coptic calendar. It lies between August 7 and September 5 of the Gregorian calendar. The month of Mesori is also the fourth month of the Season of 'Shemu' (Harvest) in Ancient Egypt, where the Egyptians harvest their crops throughout the land of Egypt. The name of the month of Mesori comes from Mes-o-ri, an Ancient Egyptian word that mean Birth of Sun.
I expect you realize that archaeology, history and linguistics are useful tools to understanding the events of the past so why the insistence on pretending they don't exist? Rktect 19:16, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes.
2 [10] When the child grew: probably when he was weaned or a little later. Moses: in Hebrew, Mosheh; the Hebrew word for "draw out" is mashah. This explanation of the name is not intended as a scientific etymology but as a play on words. The name is probably derived from an Egyptian word for "has been born," referring the birth to a god thought to be its sponsor.
In Egyptian, "Moses" means "Son of," as in the pharaohs Rameses, "Son of the god Ra," and Thutmose, "Son of the god Thoth." Thus Moses is simply "Son of - -- and a blank." "Son of - who knows?"
Appropriate enough for this boy who is reborn from the Nile, who has two or three mothers and perhaps three fathers (his biological father Amram, his protector Pharaoh, and his father-in-law Yitro, the only one who really guides and fathers him), who lives between two worlds, and whose Egyptian rescuer is said to tweak his name in mistaken Hebrew: She who drew him forth from the water says "Moses" means "the one who is drawn forth," but it actually means "the one who will draw forth" -- as he does draw forth the people from slavery.
Most Afroasiatic and Semitic words are written as roots without vowels. English readers tend to add them and this has become convention, but in the original form Moses (Mss) is mes ses (mss) written as msi because three consonants taken together is the plural form. see Gardiner p 570
The name Moses (mes ses) is particularly common in the 18th Dynasty founded by Ahmosis or iah mes. Its present in Thutmoses, which anglicized is Thomas.
The essential point that all the sources touch on is the midwiferey of drawing something forth. In this case we have an alegory between the birth of a man in difficult times and the birth of a new religion. In a way Moses is the midwife, the person responsible for guarding its birth. Exodus isn't about the Sons of Israel escaping slavery, its about their new religion being drawn forth or born anew out of Egypt Rktect 21:30, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi. You are welcome. It is easy for me to correct the spelling errors when using the Firefox browser.
From looking at your edits, the discussions, and the article... I suggest you ask for help and other opinions at
It usually helps to get some additional WP:NPOV eyes looking at a situation. -- Timeshifter 19:43, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I used word to spell check my last edit Dating of the Exodus Thanks again Rktect 19:55, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
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help)In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with Rktect 11:37, 10 July 2007 (UTC). If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 14:17, 9 July 2007 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 11:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC).
Following up on a discussion on the ANE 2 discussion list, Yitzhak Sapir at Hebrew Bible and ANE History Lists Commentary blog notes the way the place name [ Jerusalem] is written in the Akkadian of Amarna tablet EA 287.
- He even has a picture from The Encyclopedia of El Amarna Research Tool website. He correctly notes that the place name is written with the "City" determinative URU before urusalem. At least this is true in five of the seven instantiations of the place name in the Amarna tablets.
- EA 287:25: URUú-ru-sa-lim (I believe this is the example illustrated in Yitzhak's post)
- EA 287:46: URUú-ru-sa-limKI
- EA 287:61: ú-ru-sa-limKI
- EA 287:63: URUú-ru-sa-limKI
- EA 289:14: URUú-ru-sa-limKI
- EA 289:29: URUú-ru-sa-limKI
- EA 290:15: ú-ru-sa-limKI
The above quote suggests that the place determinative is for uru-sa-lim. More likely its a reduplication URU URU ___ KI meaning "peace" det. the place of places.
That suggests that it was at one time the northern border of the dijadi which was moved north in the Time of Thutmosis I to the city of Kadesh in the mountains. (This was originally a Phoenician city (Gades - Cadiz, Carthage, Kodesh) which was a city of refuge on the border of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Israel before any of those existed as countries.
Like Kadesh Jerusalem may have had the same function as a refuge city and also as a place where people would feel safe to meet for purposes of trade. In the 18th Dynasty the border between retnu (the watershed of the Orantes) and the dijadi (the watershed of the Jordan) was at the common headwaters of the Orantes, Litani and Jordan whose mountain watersheds people still fight over today.
The Akkadian name should go first since thats the name of the place in its earliest history, even after it becomes part of an Egyptian province in the 18th and 19th Dynasty as referenced in the Amarna letters. Rktect 10:44, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
The primary source is not the blog post, its ANE 2 discussion list, a monitored academic list server. If you aren't familiar with the server, the names, or the issue there is little left to say. Rktect 01:32, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
The archaeologists seem to think that Jerusalem was settled centuries earlier than 2000BCE. Anyways, I'm no expert, so if you provide text that cites a reliable secondary source ( WP:RS) about the origins of the name, then we can insert it into the article. You can discuss this further if you wish on talk:Jerusalem. nadav ( talk) 05:40, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Please don't consider this answer to your question WP:SYN. I recognize its a little complicated. Its important to recognise the determinative is placed so as to surround the name so you want to strip the determinative to get the name. After the basics from John Halloran (Sumerian) and John Heise (Akkadian) the focus shifts to when Jerusalem is written in this form. The answer to that would be in the Amarna letters, from c 1450- c 1350 BC
- uru(2)(ki), iri, rí; iri11: city, town, village, district [URU archaic frequency: 101;
- concatenation of 5 sign variants; UNUG archaic frequency: 206; concatenates 3 sign variants].
signs used
The following either discuss or demonstrate the proper usage for writing the name of a place in Akkadian which itself borrows from the even earlier Sumerian.
Origins of the name Jerusalem See the photo of the cuneiform name of Jersualem in the Amarna letters and read URU Uru šalim KI
KI Cuneiform KI (Borger 2003 nr. 737; U+121A0 𒆠) is the sign for "earth", but also "place location". It is also read as GI5, GUNNI (=KI.NE) "hearth", KARAŠ (=KI.KAL.BAD) "encampment, army", KISLAḪ (=KI.UD) "threshing place" and SUR7 (=KI.GAG). In Akkadian orthography, it functions as a determiner for toponyms and has the syllabic values gi, ge, qi and qe.
[ Akkad]
Akkad (Sumerian Agade), (Biblical Accad), was a city and its surrounding region (Sumerian URI.KI or KIURI) [ Names of Jerusalem] Urušalim
Salem Biblical Hebrew שלם š-l-m "whole", "complete" in the idiomatic sense of "at peace" Akkadian Urušalim Assyrian Uršalimmu (Uru and Ur are really cognates of the Hebrew Ir ("city of") and should not be confused with the syllables Jeru- in the name Jerusalem.)
URU__KI is Akkadian for place, the second Uru (Jeru) means city Urušalim URUUrušalim KI literally gives determinative URU = place - Uru= a city - šalim = peace - Ki of the earth (it refers to the Akkadian goddess Ninhursag
removed references
Your recent edits to Aram-Naharaim ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs), Aram (Biblical region) ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs), Baal-zephon ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) and Jerusalem ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) show clear original research with certain bias behind them. Further edits of this kind will lead to your account being blocked once again. If you wish to raise issues with individual articles, please do so on that article's talk page, and please do so in a manner that leads to discussion with other editors rather than by making sweeping statements. — Gareth Hughes 14:57, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Aram-Naharaim or "Aram of Two Rivers," is a region that is mentioned five times in the Hebrew Bible. It is commonly identified with Nahrima mentioned in three tablets of the Amarna correspondence as a geographical description of the kingdom of Mitanni. It was the land in which the city of Haran lay. According to one rabbinical Jewish tradition, Ur Kasdim, said to be the birthplace of Abraham, was also situated in Aram-Naharaim. [1]
The actual rivers referred to are not explicitly named in the Bible, although it is generally agreed that the first was the Upper Euphrates (called N-h-r-n by the Egyptians). The name Nahrima in the Amarna letters denoted the region of the Upper Euphrates and its tributaries citation needed - the Balikh and Khabur.
Both Josephus and the Septuagint translate the name as Mesopotamia. Ancient writers elsewhere used the name "Mesopotamia" for the land between the Tigris and Euphrates. According to the Book of Jubilees, when the entire Earth was divided among the sixteen grandsons of Noah, Aram, the son of Shem received as an inheritance for his offspring, lands bordered by the Euphrates and the Tigris (Jubilees 9:5); it also associates the city of Ur Kesed not with the descendants of Aram, but rather with those of Arphaxad, his brother, who was Abram's ancestor.
However the usage of the Hebrew name "Aram-Naharaim" does not match the general usage of "Mesopotamia", the former being used exclusively for a northern region. Moreover the translation of the name as "Mesopotamia" was not consistent - the Septuagint also uses a more precise translation "Mesopotamia of Syria" as well as "Rivers of Syria". Josephus refers to the subjects of Chushan, king of Aram Naharaim, [2] as "Assyrians". [3]
Hebrew has a distinct name Ashur for the region of Assyria containing the Tigris. Aram Naharaim lay west of Ashur as it contained Haran. Haran itself lies on the west bank of the Balikh, east of the Upper Euphrates. The traditional Jewish location of Ur Kasdim (at Edessa) and the Balikh itself lie west of the Khabur implying that the second river was understood to be the latter by those maintaining this tradition.
...I added this to the article...
A Myth exists to the effect that Aram-Naharaim, land of the two rivers, is synonomous with Mesopotamia therefore the two rivers are the Tigris and Euphrates. Despite this we can observe that most references to Aram are to places located south of Damascus. This can be done using Bible Pages and references in them to Aram outside Mesopotamia which are consistently south of Damascus.
Most of the references below can be found on this map. Aram This illustrates the territory of Asher, Dan, Nephtali and Zebulon on the headwaters of the Jordan river connecting to the southern end of the territory of the Nahrin at Kadesh on the Orontes. The people the Egyptians called the Nah-araim or Nahrin are also known as the Mittani.
Tracking this down the two rivers are a watershed in the mountains, at a place still called the Golan Heights, serving Aram. Carchemish is north of Hamath, Hamath, is north of Damascus, Damascus is north of Aram, Aram, is east of Sideon, Tyre, and Hazor
The Bible passages refering to Aram show that the only way you could stretch Aram north toward the Euphrates would be to go through Damascus, Hamath, and Carchemish.
The headwaters of the Orontes river bordering Aram on the West does stretch that far north through the territory of the Nahrin. Their cities were originally Alalah on the Orontes east of Ugarit, east to Haran and Hama, Quatna and Kadesh moving south or upstream to the headwaters of the Orontes east of the Amurru whose city is Hazor. While this is not near the Tigris is does touch on the Euphrates. Biblical accounts are much more consistent in placing Aram south west of Damascus.
The location southwest of Damascus is referenced both in Biblical and Egyptian campaign accounts.
While the lands and kings of the Nahrin do occupy lands to the north; as given in "The Cambridge Atlas of Mesopotamia" (CAM) and their cities include Alalah on the Orontes east of Ugarit, and Hama, Quatna, and Kadesh moving upstream to the headwaters east of the Amurru, the best definition for this territory probably isn't Mesopotamia.
Their lands are bounded to the west by the Amurru and Mukish, to the North by Kizzuwatna with Tarsus and Charchemish, and to the east by Nuhase which touches on the Euphrates but borders the Mitanni with the cities of Ebla and Allepo. To the south they eventually extended their territory down the Jordan as far as Meggido during the Egyptian 18th Dynasty which may have caused them to snap up Aram and its territory. The above referenced lands southwest of Damascus are mentioned in the Amarna letters and in the Biblical Conquest as shown in CAM p135 as Aram.
This is the name of a small district lying north of Arabia, north-east of Palestine, east of Phoenicia, south of the Taurus range, and west of the Tigris. It is generally supposed that the name points to the district as the 'Highlands,' though it may be from Aram the son of Shem, as above. The word occurs once untranslated in Num. 23: 7, as 'Aram' simply, from whence Balaam was brought, 'out of the mountains of the east;' but it is mostly translated Syria or Syrian. Thus we have -
- 1. ARAM-DAMMESEK, 2 Sam. 8: 5, translated 'Syrians of Damascus,' embracing the highlands of Damascus including the city. (Mount Hermon)
- 2. ARAM-MAACHAH, 1 Chr. 19: 6, translated 'Syria-maachah,' a district on the east of Argob and Bashan.
- Maacah (Codex Alexandrinus: Maacha, KJV: Maachah) is a biblical name with many references:
- Small Aramean kingdom east of the Sea of Galilee (I Chronicles 19:6). Its territory was in the region assigned to the half-tribe of Manasseh east of the Jordan. Maacah, its king, became a mercenary of the Ammonites in their war against David (II Samuel 10:6). It is probable that the city Abel of Beth-maachah in Naphtali (ib. xx. 15) derived its name from its relation to this kingdom and people.
- Bashan (Hebrew הבשן ha-Bashan, meaning "the light soil") is a biblical place first mentioned in Genesis 14:5, where it is said that Chedorlaomer and his confederates "smote the Rephaim in Ashteroth," where Og the king of Bashan had his residence. At the time of Israel's entrance into the Promised Land, Og came out against them, but was utterly routed
- (Numbers 21:33-35; Deuteronomy 3:1-7). This country extended from Gilead in the south to Hermon in the north, and from the Jordan river on the west to Salcah on the east. Along with the half of Gilead it was given to the half-tribe of Manasseh (Joshua 13:29-31). Golan, one of its cities, became a city of refuge (Joshua 21:27).
- Bashan just northeast of Chinnereth, the Golan heights.
- Argob, in Bashan, was one of Solomon's commissariat districts (1 Kings 4:13). The cities of Bashan were taken by Hazael (2 Kings 10:33), but were soon after reconquered by Jehoash (2 Kings 13:25), who overcame the Syrians in three battles, according to the prediction of Elisha (19). From this time Bashan almost disappears from history, although we read of the wild cattle of its rich pastures (Ezekiel 39:18; Psalms 22:12), the oaks of its forests (Isaiah 2:13; Ezekiel 27:6; Zechariah 11:2), and the beauty of its extensive plains (Amos 4:1; Jeremiah 50:19). Soon after the conquest, the name "Gilead" was given to the whole country beyond Jordan. After the Exile, Bashan was divided into four districts
- 3. ARAM-BETH-REHOB, 2 Sam. 10: 6, translated 'Syrians of Beth-rehob: cf. Judges 18: 28, a district in the north, near Dan.
- 4. ARAM-ZOBAH, 2 Sam. 10: 6, 8, translated 'Syrians of Zoba,' a district between and Damascus, but not definitely recognised.
- 5. ARAM-NAHARAIM signifying ' Aram of two rivers,' Gen. 24: 10; Deut. 23: 4; Judges 3: 8; 1 Chr. 19: 6, translated by some Greeks as ' Mesopotamia.' The two rivers are assumed to be the Euphrates and the Tigris but going to the geographic defitions the territory would be the highlands from whence the Orantes and Jordan rivers issue to the plain, and the region between the two rivers without extending to the far south.
Num. 32:41 And Jair the son of Manasseh went and took the small towns thereof, and called them Havoth-jair. Deut. 3:14 Jair the son of Manasseh took all the country of Argob unto the coasts of Geshuri and Maachathi; and called cthem after his own name, Bashan-havoth-jair, unto this day. Josh. 13:30 And their coast was from Mahanaim, all Bashan, all the kingdom of Og king of Bashan, and all the towns of Jair, which are in Bashan, threescore cities: 1 Kgs. 4:13 The son of Geber, in Ramoth-gilead; to him pertained the towns of Jair the son of Manasseh, which are in Gilead; to him also pertained the region of Argob, which is in Bashan, threescore great cities with walls and brasen bars:
Amos 6:2 Pass ye unto Calneh, and see; and from thence go ye to Hamath the great: then go down to Gath of the Philistines: be they better than these kingdoms? or their border greater than your border?
Zech. 9:2 And Hamath also shall border thereby; Tyrus, and Zidon, though it be very wise.
17:07, July 1, 2007 (hist) (diff) User talk:Rktect (→Warning) 17:06, July 1, 2007 (hist) (diff) User talk:Rktect (Warning)
You currently appear to be engaged in an
edit war. Note that the
three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the
three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be
blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content which gains a
consensus among editors.
Beit
Or
21:06, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
I haven't reverted anything, let alone 3 times. Actually I have just been editing and adding material. if you don't mind telling me, why don't you use the discussion page where I have been explaining what I'm doing and adding cites to discuss this. Rktect 21:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
I trust you do agree there is a difference between an edit which adds material and a revert which deletes it. User Jayjg has been stalking and reverting edits of everything I have added in the last week. I have not reverted in reciprocation but rather asked why on the discussion portion of the pages and on his user page. So far he has not been very responsive. I note from other comments that he does this to others rather often. In the case of the page on Deborah I think the comparison of historical references to the biblical account adds some depth to the page. If you disagree why not explain rather than repeatedly attempt revert me in the middle of an edit? Rktect 21:30, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
As frustrating as it sometimes can be, the policy on no original research specifically prohibits such inferable information. The point is highlighted especially in controversial subject matter like biblical studies, where there are many opinions involved. OR is one of the most important policies, and unfortunately it is also among the hardest to understand. I suggest you review it carefully, and if you have any questions, feel free to approach myself or the helpdesk. Tewfik Talk 17:27, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
You reverted this which is simply Exodus 2:2 and 1:10
Also according to the book of Exodus, Moses was born in a time of dynastic change in Egypt when the Sons of Israel had become numerous enough to raise concerns lest in a time of war they might take arms against Egypt
and this which is Exodus 2:15
According to the book of Exodus after this incident Moses made his way to Midian which lies directly across the Red Sea from Thebes which was Egypts capital at the time.
and this which is just a summary of Exodus 4-7
According to the book of Exodus, as a shepherd, Moses spends most of his life tending his Jethro's flocks while his brother Aaron is educated as a scribe and becomes a priest in Egypt with standing to speak in the royal court at Thebes.
All of this was just added reference from the Bible story which isn't in the story as it stands Rktect 19:18, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I have blocked you for 48 hours to give everyone a rest from your behaviour. Original research, argumentation, spurious complaints about those who oppose you, and frankly we don't need any of it. Guy ( Help!) 19:57, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
You have to stop inventing theories loosely based on a whole bunch of different sources; instead, you must cite someone who exactly states that theory. In your case, I recommend quoting what people say directly. Jayjg (talk) 18:08, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I've pointed him to that before. Jayjg (talk) 18:19, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I added a reference from Gardiner Egyptian Grammar, to the Ten Commandments page re: the meaning of the name Moses in Egyptian. I then went down to the bottom of the page to place the ISBN's went back up to the top and found the reference gone. For what its worth there was no Hebrew language in existence when the events of Exodus took place so what sense does it make to cite a Jewish Encyclopedia as to the meaning of the name in Hebrew? Lets exercise a little common sense and it will be a better encyclopedia. The following are kind of throwaway references just to show its common knowledge. The source I cited was Gardiners Egyptian Gramar.
Mesori also known as Mesra is the twelfth month of the Coptic calendar. It lies between August 7 and September 5 of the Gregorian calendar. The month of Mesori is also the fourth month of the Season of 'Shemu' (Harvest) in Ancient Egypt, where the Egyptians harvest their crops throughout the land of Egypt. The name of the month of Mesori comes from Mes-o-ri, an Ancient Egyptian word that mean Birth of Sun.
I expect you realize that archaeology, history and linguistics are useful tools to understanding the events of the past so why the insistence on pretending they don't exist? Rktect 19:16, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes.
2 [10] When the child grew: probably when he was weaned or a little later. Moses: in Hebrew, Mosheh; the Hebrew word for "draw out" is mashah. This explanation of the name is not intended as a scientific etymology but as a play on words. The name is probably derived from an Egyptian word for "has been born," referring the birth to a god thought to be its sponsor.
In Egyptian, "Moses" means "Son of," as in the pharaohs Rameses, "Son of the god Ra," and Thutmose, "Son of the god Thoth." Thus Moses is simply "Son of - -- and a blank." "Son of - who knows?"
Appropriate enough for this boy who is reborn from the Nile, who has two or three mothers and perhaps three fathers (his biological father Amram, his protector Pharaoh, and his father-in-law Yitro, the only one who really guides and fathers him), who lives between two worlds, and whose Egyptian rescuer is said to tweak his name in mistaken Hebrew: She who drew him forth from the water says "Moses" means "the one who is drawn forth," but it actually means "the one who will draw forth" -- as he does draw forth the people from slavery.
Most Afroasiatic and Semitic words are written as roots without vowels. English readers tend to add them and this has become convention, but in the original form Moses (Mss) is mes ses (mss) written as msi because three consonants taken together is the plural form. see Gardiner p 570
The name Moses (mes ses) is particularly common in the 18th Dynasty founded by Ahmosis or iah mes. Its present in Thutmoses, which anglicized is Thomas.
The essential point that all the sources touch on is the midwiferey of drawing something forth. In this case we have an alegory between the birth of a man in difficult times and the birth of a new religion. In a way Moses is the midwife, the person responsible for guarding its birth. Exodus isn't about the Sons of Israel escaping slavery, its about their new religion being drawn forth or born anew out of Egypt Rktect 21:30, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi. You are welcome. It is easy for me to correct the spelling errors when using the Firefox browser.
From looking at your edits, the discussions, and the article... I suggest you ask for help and other opinions at
It usually helps to get some additional WP:NPOV eyes looking at a situation. -- Timeshifter 19:43, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I used word to spell check my last edit Dating of the Exodus Thanks again Rktect 19:55, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
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