I'm sure the closing admin will know policy well enough and will read this comment, and the one above (that you posted earlier, and was also at the bottom of the page, complete with requests to post above it). There is no need for the extra emphasis complete with wiki commented <! -- warnings --> to post above it. What is stated here is no more or less important then what anyone else here has stated. (Please note I have not yet made a statement on this MFD) —— Eagle101 Need help? 01:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
MFD is completely inappropriate for this kind of discussion. Less than a year ago we went though a "no spoiler warning" discussion at Wikipedia:Spoiler warning/RfC. -- Ned Scott 02:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
If we count all deletes as historifys, that merely mitigates damage.
If you think you have ways to actually improve the situation, that would be cool. :-)
-- Kim Bruning 03:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
If you haven't noticed, the policy is currently full protected. Lots of edit warring :-( -- Iamunknown 03:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
are the two options. Kim I'd like to appologize for not figuring out your edit, I hit your 3rd edit in an edit conflict whilist modifiying my own comment, and I presummed someone reverted me wholesale, and just copy pasted. (I did not realize you wanted to talk on the talk page, in any case I'm sorry, and I know I fucked up. Cheers! —— Eagle101 Need help? 03:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
While I feel it's still too early to "call the fight", if the conclusion is to no longer use spoiler warnings, would This version be acceptable for the new spoiler guideline? -- Ned Scott 05:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Actually, you're not supposed to discuss policies and guidelines at MFD. One of the reasons MFD got split off from WP:AFD is so that we could easily catch situations where that happened.
Now since closing an MFD always causes a lot of wikidrama, I decided to try to just put a friendly footer on the page, that points out that all deletes go to historify, and that we're actually sort of Ignoring that "inconvenient" rule by keeping the discussion here.
Of course, if the footer gets removed all the time, well, you can't have your cake and eat it too, and we'll just have to close the MFD anyway.
(possibly I'm being too soft, and should just crack down and enforce policy)
-- Kim Bruning 09:24, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
(re MFD)
I've moved this here for discussion - it is obviously disputed and if you are unwilling to have it attributed as your view - then we need to discuss it before presenting it.-- Docg 11:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Point of policy
Note to closing admin: Wikipedia:Spoiler warning is a guideline page. We do not delete guidelines, we merely mark them as {{ historical}}, or {{ rejected}}. This is to (literally) prevent history from repeating itself. Therefore if consensus here is to delete, mark as historical instead. Under no circumstances must you actually delete. I've moved this to talk, it is quite obviously disputed in parts - and if you are unwilling to have it attributed as your view, then we need further discussion: Note on MFD: Note that it's actually not a good idea to vote on policy like MFD so conveniently seems to allow. Use the talk page instead. Discussion on the talk page of a guideline is likely to overturn any decision made on MFD. |
-- Docg 11:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I have better things to do with my time. This experiment of mine failed. I am closing this MfD as inappropriate venue as I should have done per policy in the first place -- Kim Bruning 11:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Relevant policy from WP:MFD: Nominating a Wikipedia policy or guideline page, or one of the deletion discussion areas (or their sub-pages), for deletion will probably be considered disruptive, and the ensuing discussions closed early. This is not a forum for modifying or revoking policy.
Note that I have been basically IARing all day, and now I've merely stopped doing so, since it is too difficult to coordinate or cooperate with people at this location at this moment in time :-/ -- Kim Bruning 12:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Can one non- pointedly nominate WP:MfD at WP:MfD? Carcharoth 13:43, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
OK. We can let this run - but the result is now obvious. If this was still an MfD, there may not be the 2/3 to delete. However, what is obvious is there is no consensus in favour of continuing with this policy. There isn't even a majority in favour. Thus the policy should be marked as rejected. And we can go forward from there:
Do I have support thus far? Or does anyone think the outcome maybe different?
Personally, I'm against these things altogether. I'd like to ban them. But I suspect that doesn't have consensus support, so I'd suggest we discuss round a new policy that could be framed in general terms like this:
How might that sound as a way forward? I realise everyone won't like it - but I'm trying to read consensus here - and I think we may have one.-- Docg 16:22, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Let's put it in another way. If there is no consensus as to whether the policy should be kept. Then should it be there at all? Of course, it's all about perspective. But so far, I believe concensus should be used to agree on what should be done more than what not should be done.-- Kylohk 16:38, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I could be wrong, but I get the feeling that the discussion is moving towards something useful. — The Storm Surfer 16:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely not. Making a massive encyclopedia-wide change is not to be done lightly, and it is NOT to be done after one or two day's discussion, with no kind of announcement and very little informing, on the basis of the people who happened to be here. That isn't consensus, that's steamrolling. -- Kizor 19:19, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Both the MfD and the TfD were/are apparently inappropriate venues for discussion, but why is the pro-deletion MfD included directly on the page, when the pro-keep TfD is hidden away on a sub-page? This unfairly slants the discussion in favour of the anti-spoiler camp.-- Nydas (Talk) 19:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
"The problem is" - in this context Wikipedia is being used by two different groups of people: newbies (who might appreciate the plot spoiler) and those familiar with the production, or who wish to have a quick overview of the storyline. The question is - are the former more annoyed by the spoiler's presence than the latter by its absence? Jackiespeel 15:57, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Am I understanding this correctly? Are some people proposing no censoring of information at all? Are people really promoting this hairbrained scheme? If this is correct and the lead is the lead is a summary of the article then The Usual Suspects should say that Kevin Spacey is Keyser Soze in the lead. Hell, it should be pretty prominent too probably in the second or third sentence. Marcus Taylor 12:20, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I just want to point out that until 5 minutes ago when I changed it, the spoiler for The Usual Suspects occurred in the second sentence.
Kuronue 20:24, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I can't find the response I wrote to Kusma on Poll 1 (the one where I asked whether Xenu was written as fiction or non-fiction and pointed out that Romeo and Juliet can still be spoiled even though people know what happens at the end), even when I check the history pages, and my earlier response to him (the one beginning "No, it really doesn't") keeps getting moved into the votes against section, when I've already voted in the votes for. Can people please stop moving my comments? RobbieG 22:11, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure the closing admin will know policy well enough and will read this comment, and the one above (that you posted earlier, and was also at the bottom of the page, complete with requests to post above it). There is no need for the extra emphasis complete with wiki commented <! -- warnings --> to post above it. What is stated here is no more or less important then what anyone else here has stated. (Please note I have not yet made a statement on this MFD) —— Eagle101 Need help? 01:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
MFD is completely inappropriate for this kind of discussion. Less than a year ago we went though a "no spoiler warning" discussion at Wikipedia:Spoiler warning/RfC. -- Ned Scott 02:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
If we count all deletes as historifys, that merely mitigates damage.
If you think you have ways to actually improve the situation, that would be cool. :-)
-- Kim Bruning 03:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
If you haven't noticed, the policy is currently full protected. Lots of edit warring :-( -- Iamunknown 03:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
are the two options. Kim I'd like to appologize for not figuring out your edit, I hit your 3rd edit in an edit conflict whilist modifiying my own comment, and I presummed someone reverted me wholesale, and just copy pasted. (I did not realize you wanted to talk on the talk page, in any case I'm sorry, and I know I fucked up. Cheers! —— Eagle101 Need help? 03:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
While I feel it's still too early to "call the fight", if the conclusion is to no longer use spoiler warnings, would This version be acceptable for the new spoiler guideline? -- Ned Scott 05:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Actually, you're not supposed to discuss policies and guidelines at MFD. One of the reasons MFD got split off from WP:AFD is so that we could easily catch situations where that happened.
Now since closing an MFD always causes a lot of wikidrama, I decided to try to just put a friendly footer on the page, that points out that all deletes go to historify, and that we're actually sort of Ignoring that "inconvenient" rule by keeping the discussion here.
Of course, if the footer gets removed all the time, well, you can't have your cake and eat it too, and we'll just have to close the MFD anyway.
(possibly I'm being too soft, and should just crack down and enforce policy)
-- Kim Bruning 09:24, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
(re MFD)
I've moved this here for discussion - it is obviously disputed and if you are unwilling to have it attributed as your view - then we need to discuss it before presenting it.-- Docg 11:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Point of policy
Note to closing admin: Wikipedia:Spoiler warning is a guideline page. We do not delete guidelines, we merely mark them as {{ historical}}, or {{ rejected}}. This is to (literally) prevent history from repeating itself. Therefore if consensus here is to delete, mark as historical instead. Under no circumstances must you actually delete. I've moved this to talk, it is quite obviously disputed in parts - and if you are unwilling to have it attributed as your view, then we need further discussion: Note on MFD: Note that it's actually not a good idea to vote on policy like MFD so conveniently seems to allow. Use the talk page instead. Discussion on the talk page of a guideline is likely to overturn any decision made on MFD. |
-- Docg 11:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I have better things to do with my time. This experiment of mine failed. I am closing this MfD as inappropriate venue as I should have done per policy in the first place -- Kim Bruning 11:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Relevant policy from WP:MFD: Nominating a Wikipedia policy or guideline page, or one of the deletion discussion areas (or their sub-pages), for deletion will probably be considered disruptive, and the ensuing discussions closed early. This is not a forum for modifying or revoking policy.
Note that I have been basically IARing all day, and now I've merely stopped doing so, since it is too difficult to coordinate or cooperate with people at this location at this moment in time :-/ -- Kim Bruning 12:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Can one non- pointedly nominate WP:MfD at WP:MfD? Carcharoth 13:43, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
OK. We can let this run - but the result is now obvious. If this was still an MfD, there may not be the 2/3 to delete. However, what is obvious is there is no consensus in favour of continuing with this policy. There isn't even a majority in favour. Thus the policy should be marked as rejected. And we can go forward from there:
Do I have support thus far? Or does anyone think the outcome maybe different?
Personally, I'm against these things altogether. I'd like to ban them. But I suspect that doesn't have consensus support, so I'd suggest we discuss round a new policy that could be framed in general terms like this:
How might that sound as a way forward? I realise everyone won't like it - but I'm trying to read consensus here - and I think we may have one.-- Docg 16:22, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Let's put it in another way. If there is no consensus as to whether the policy should be kept. Then should it be there at all? Of course, it's all about perspective. But so far, I believe concensus should be used to agree on what should be done more than what not should be done.-- Kylohk 16:38, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I could be wrong, but I get the feeling that the discussion is moving towards something useful. — The Storm Surfer 16:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely not. Making a massive encyclopedia-wide change is not to be done lightly, and it is NOT to be done after one or two day's discussion, with no kind of announcement and very little informing, on the basis of the people who happened to be here. That isn't consensus, that's steamrolling. -- Kizor 19:19, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Both the MfD and the TfD were/are apparently inappropriate venues for discussion, but why is the pro-deletion MfD included directly on the page, when the pro-keep TfD is hidden away on a sub-page? This unfairly slants the discussion in favour of the anti-spoiler camp.-- Nydas (Talk) 19:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
"The problem is" - in this context Wikipedia is being used by two different groups of people: newbies (who might appreciate the plot spoiler) and those familiar with the production, or who wish to have a quick overview of the storyline. The question is - are the former more annoyed by the spoiler's presence than the latter by its absence? Jackiespeel 15:57, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Am I understanding this correctly? Are some people proposing no censoring of information at all? Are people really promoting this hairbrained scheme? If this is correct and the lead is the lead is a summary of the article then The Usual Suspects should say that Kevin Spacey is Keyser Soze in the lead. Hell, it should be pretty prominent too probably in the second or third sentence. Marcus Taylor 12:20, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I just want to point out that until 5 minutes ago when I changed it, the spoiler for The Usual Suspects occurred in the second sentence.
Kuronue 20:24, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I can't find the response I wrote to Kusma on Poll 1 (the one where I asked whether Xenu was written as fiction or non-fiction and pointed out that Romeo and Juliet can still be spoiled even though people know what happens at the end), even when I check the history pages, and my earlier response to him (the one beginning "No, it really doesn't") keeps getting moved into the votes against section, when I've already voted in the votes for. Can people please stop moving my comments? RobbieG 22:11, 29 May 2007 (UTC)