SlimVirgin, you'll have to put your accusations into RfC format because you've piled so many into your narative description that I can't address them one at a time. Also, just to be clear, are you opening this RfC up to include all history back to the point where you started editing the Terri Schiavo article? FuelWagon 22:55, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Oh, and I really like the snowball effect going on here. You guys couldn't find squat for policy violations on the Terrorism article. You never tried to resolve the dispute on that page in any meaningful way. So you're slowly expanding the evidence until it includes enough unrelated issues to make a case. By all means, if we're going to go all the way back to Terri Schiavo, then lets get everything in the RfC. FuelWagon 22:59, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
If you keep your cool going forward, then I would consider this RFC sucessful. If you feel you are losing your cool, walk away. The above comment strikes me as one that needs not be made. Just walk away. The person who gets the last word, in this whole thing, is the loser. Unless it's me, because I am cool. Hipocrite - «Talk» 19:23, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
After I posted my "Outside view", FW inserted my name on a list labelled "What you have here is a number of editors supporting this RfC against me who have all been involved in a content dispute with me recently, and many have a history with me that goes all the way back to opposing my RfC against SlimVirgin." Emphasis by italics and bolding in original: all. This is... imprecise, and makes me wonder if other commenters are being dismissed in FW's responses on equally slight qualifications. I have no content dispute with FW, and I don't "go all the way back" to the RfC on SlimVirgin. I did oppose FW's RfC on SV. That's it, that's my "history" with him. (All the way back in July.) Is that supposed to disqualify me from posting on this one? Or tend to prove that I'm biased? Seriously, Fuel, how do you figure? I haven't had anything to do with you since July. Not taken any interest in the pages you edit, not encountered you, not spoken to you, not spoken of you. You'd do yourself a favor by removing me from the list with an apology. You'd look better.
Oh, wait! I did speak to you one time after the SV RfC, I'm remembering. Also in July, a couple of weeks later. I wrote
on your Talk page: "Hi, FuelWagon. Since you and I haven't had any interchange except your RfC on SlimVirgin, and I had nothing but criticism for you there, I want to also tell you I'm very impressed by your input on
Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Cberlet & Willmcw. I think you're doing really good work on getting Rangerdude's attention." No good? Too fawning? Anyway, that's the whole of it.
Bishonen |
talk
10:31, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I think a number of SlimVirgin's supporters who claim to be neutral are avoiding addressing the issue around the Bensaccount RfC and are avoiding looking at some of the dates SLimVirgin provides as "proof" of stalking.
03:34, 22 August 2005: I file RfC against Bensacount, all 30 diffs of evidence point to Creation science article. [3]
03:26, 31 August 2005: SlimVirgin posts on my talk shes "All out of good faith" [4]
22:47, 31 August 2005: SV says Bensaccount RfC "looks like another inappropriate RfC filed by you," [5]
23:26, 15 September 2005: I cite "However" in "Words to avoid" to SlimVirgin [6]
22:57, 17 September 2005: SlimVirgin deletes the "However" entry [7]
20:11, 16 September 2005: This is the diff that SlimVirgin provides saying she arrived there first. [8]
Anyone who would qualify as a Juror here would clearly see SlimVirgin stalked me to the Bensaccount RfC and that her "proof" that I stalked her to the "words to avoid" article actually shows that she stalked me. FuelWagon 14:53, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
I just saw the RfC accuses me of "After reverting warring on Terri Schiavo for several months,". Did someone mean to say "after reverting vandals for several months"? Nothing like laying it on extra thick, I suppose. FuelWagon 18:44, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Since it is referenced in the RfC I have archived the chunk of my talk page that has El_C's attempts at combat resolution to a directory under this RfC Wikipedia:Requests for comment/FuelWagon 2/FuelWagonTalkPageSnapshot. I generally delete old comments on my talk page, but was chastized for doing so last time. Since the stuff seems relevant to this RfC, I've archived it under this RfC. FuelWagon 23:57, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I promised on the article page, that I'd put something on the talk page tonight, in response to those who want an explanation of how anyone could see an attack in Neuroscientist's long post. As I've pointed out, there's no reason to give an example of Neuroscientist violating WP:NPA, because nobody has claimed that he did. FuelWagon has claimed repeatedly that Neuroscientist was "attacked" and "cautioned", and now he has come out with the incredible statement that it's clear that Ed was threatening to block Neuroscientist. [9] I'm a bit stunned at that statement. I read Ed's post to Neuroscientist at the time, and I didn't see it as even remotely threatening a block. And I have to point out yet again that Ed did not block FuelWagon a second time. Here is the block log.
So, Ed did not accuse Neuroscientist of attacking SlimVirgin. He did not attack Neuroscientist; he did not threaten him. He asked him politely to try to avoid personal remarks. [10] On what grounds?
Here are some extracts from Neuroscientist's post. I've put it all in italics, to distinguish it from my own post, but the underlining is his.
SlimVirgin . . . has an exceptionally poor understanding of elementary neuroanatomy. . . . this person has absolutely, totally, completely, no idea of what she’s talking about. This is an example of the worst in Wikipedia, when complete, arrant nonsense serves as the basis for editorial decisions. . . .SlimVirgin is also wrong when she writes . . . . This is nonsense, of course. . . . Seriously guys, don't you think this is clunky? . . . Most of her assumptions were wrong. . . . [Some of her edits were] woefully ill-informed, or weak. . . . Leaving aside the hubris it must take [for SlimVirgin] to say that . . . . I have already shown that her assumptions of fact in her version of the introduction are riddled with error. . . . My final impressions here are that this User demonstrated very, very, very poor judgment by doing what she did. [11]
There is no reason to ask anyone to justify Ed's caution against personal attacks when Ed didn't caution against personal attacks. There was nothing threatening or attacking in Ed's request. However, Ed had been mediating the article for some time, and had presumably read some of Neuroscientist's remarks to Gordon ("you're talking horseshit") and others. Regardless of that, I cannot believe that any unbiased person would look at the extracts I've given from his lengthy post about SlimVirgin's edits, and conclude that it was just a scientific analysis of her edit with absolutely nothing personal. Ann Heneghan (talk) 00:24, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
In response to Neuroscientist posted a long criticism of SlimVirgin's edits. His criticisms were in a style that is characteristic of scientific peer review of questionable research, which pulls no punches and can be harsh and abrasive. As a newcomer to Wikipedia, he apparently did not realize that this style of criticism is, in the Wikipedia community, construed as a personal attack. by McClenon I requested someone illuminate those of us that can't see the personal attacks you and others see in Neuroscientist's posted criticism of SlimVirgin's edits. WAS 4.250 02:04, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
In response to as far as I know, the only person ever to use the word "attack" with regard to Neuroscientist's post is FuelWagon by Ann Heneghan I posted Finally, I don't appreciate the personal comments you've lobbed at me. A feature of this page, and this pertains to all the archives too, is that editors have repeatedly attacked one another, instead of concentrating on content. I'm sorry you felt it necessary to continue that tradition. SlimVirgin (talk) 07:04, July 13, 2005 (UTC) from Talk:Terri Schiavo/archive30. WAS 4.250 02:04, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Whitewashing [refers] to a particular form of censorship via omission, which seeks to "clean up" the portrayal of particular issues and facts which are already known from Censorship. Nobody here is doing that on purpose, but the human subconcious does that for each and every one of us. Good thing we have each other. WAS 4.250 02:36, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:Editcountitis: The problem with using edit counts to measure relative level of experience is that it does not take into account that users might have an extensive edit history prior to registering an account (posting anonymously) and that major and minor edits are counted equally, regardless of whether the edit is a typo fix or the creation of a full article. Hence, it is not a reliable way of telling how experienced or worthy an user truly is, even though using the edit count tool is often useful for obtaining a general idea of how the editor interacts with the Wikipedia. WAS 4.250 10:06, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Also, Edit counting (at the Meta-Wiki) is informative and interesting. WAS 4.250 10:12, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I think I should have posted this to Talk in the first place. TShilo12 endorsed my outside view and commented among other things that "the fact that FW has endorsed this summary is, at least in my view, somewhat encouraging...". This was my response:
Don't know what to tell you, Bishonen. There are no hypotheticals here. I filed the Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Bensaccount 22 August. Every diff of evidence involved relates to the Creation science article. SlimVirgin hadn't edited the article during that dispute. A week later, I submitted evidence to arbcom that was critical of SlimVirgin. She posted on my talk page that she is "all out of good faith" [13]. That very day, SlimVirgin suddenly takes a keen interest in proving the Bensaccount RfC "This looks like another example of an inappropriate RfC filed by you" [14]. In response to me posting evidence to arbcom against her, she takes her dispute with me to the Bensaccount RfC and crusades to label it "another inappropriate" RfC. I told her that if there was any problem with the Bensaccount RfC that a neutral, uninvolved admin should look at it, not her. But she wouldn't hand it off to anyone. She made it her personal crusade. An RfC she hadn't been involved in for a week, on an article that she had never edited in her life, and the day I submit evidence against her to arbcom, she turns the Bensaccount RfC into a battlefield to prove how evil I am. The only hypothetical was that if I had done the exact same thing to her, I'm sure everyone supporting SlimVirgin now would agree that I was harrassing and stalking her. But that she did it to me means that all her supporters find it perfectly acceptable to show up on an RfC out of the blue the day after I submit evidece that she didn't like. FuelWagon 14:03, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Threaded comment to Ta bu shi da yu's endorsement of outside view by Bishonen moved here. (Compare instructions at the bottom of the RfC page. The page is messy enough as it is.)
I am in general opposed to threaded comments in Requests for Comments. They can easily get out of hand and become very confusing as to who is saying what. Since a user conduct RfC is itself evidence that other discussion has failed, it is important for outsiders to be able to tell who has said what. I am normally in favor of the idea of moving threaded comments from RfC article pages to RfC talk pages. However, having said that, why is FuelWagon leaving his own threaded comments on the article page while moving other comments to the talk page?
It is quite true that SlimVirgin's gender is both obvious and irrelevant. Can we please avoid having a war about it? Robert McClenon 20:24, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Please stop deleting people's comments from the project page. You've done this with every single RfC I've ever seen you involved in. It's the same control freakery that caused a problem at Schiavo. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:15, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Can someone please explain why there's a revert war on the main project page? -- Viriditas | Talk 04:16, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
This revert war is ridiculous. FuelWagon is correct as to the letter and spirit of the RfC instructions that threaded comments are out of line. SlimVirgin is correct that 3RR has been violated. Any allegations of vandalism are out of line. It is not that important where the threaded comments are to have a revert war.
I thought that progress had been made with FuelWagon agreeing to stop demanding an accounting for "truth" about the past on talk pages, and to proceed to ensuring truth (e.g., accuracy, NPOV) on article pages. Can we move on? Robert McClenon 15:06, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
FuelWagon was correct as to the letter and the spirit of the RfC instructions that threaded comments, including a remark by SlimVirgin about her talk page making her gender clear, were out of line. SlimVirgin ws correct that FuelWagon violated 3RR. It appears that he deleted that comment at least 6 times. It appears that he was then blocked for 24 hours, which turned into a block of approximately 29 hours because three different admins noticed the violation at different times.
The only exceptions to 3RR are restoration of vandalism, and a few other situations that are agreed to have the character of vandalism. Edits by a user who has been banned from specific pages are not vandalism, but, like vandalism, they can be reverted without regard to 3RR (as well as blocking the user). FuelWagon was not reverting simple vandalism by moving the threaded comments. He was being bold in editing, but being bold does not justify 3RR.
I have not yet researched whether Purple Platypus is correct that SlimVirgin made a cloaked revert, which would have violated 3RR. FuelWagon clearly violated 3RR.
It was not that important where the comment about SlimVirgin's gender was to have an edit war. Ca we move on to truth on article pages? Robert McClenon 16:28, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I thought that FuelWagon was right on the issues on the Terri Schiavo article. I still do. I still think that SlimVirgin edited it recklessly. This is not important. I have defended FuelWagon mostly, although not to the extent that he wants, since then.
FuelWagon made the following post to my user talk page today:
Well, Robert, I know you have quite a bit of faith in the dispute resolution process at wikipedia (a somewhat naive faith, in my opinion, but your results may vary). I have told you from the beginning that process ain't worth Jack if the people running the process are themselves part of the problem. And I know you've got an overwhelming amount of faith in the mediation process, so I thought I'd report to you that the Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Ed Poor and FuelWagon has failed. The mediator (Improv) has withdrawn due to a complete lack of participation from Ed Poor. 16 days ago, Improv emailed us (because Ed Poor wanted to do mediation by email) a number of questions to start mediation. I responded in full. Ed responded basically saying he "needed more time". 15 days later, no response from Ed, and Improv emails him a "prod", asking for his answers. no response. A day later, Improv withdraws from mediation because he only mediates one dispute at a time, and Ed has gone 2+ weeks without a response to mediation. Ed did, however, find the time to make about 650 edits to wikipedia in those two weeks. So, now what, Robert? The people who are part of the problem are also part of the dispute resolution process, and if they don't want to deal with something, they either get their mob friends to close ranks around them, or they simply don't respond at all. Anyway, your calls to use the dispute resolution process appear to be pointless. Arbcom ruled Ed did no wrong and "didn't have time" to deal with finding out what particular wrongs he may have done. A pardon. I asked the mediation chairman if they had any process for dealing with a mediator who failed to mediate. He asked me if I wanted to stamp Ed's forhead with something or fire him as mediator. I try mediation, and Ed simply doesn't show up. So, in the future, please spare me your talk about resolving things through channels. I've tried every step, and as long as the people causing the problems have friends who are running the process, then the process is a joke. And I think your efforts to change or rearrange the process are pointless as long as friends are allowed to pass judgement on friends and enemies are allowed to gang up on their enemies. You seem to think a jury system is overkill. Everything I've seen says its the only thing that will fix the problem. But by all means, focus on the process and ignore the problem and the problem users. All the best. FuelWagon 01:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
It was never clear to me what FuelWagon wanted to mediate with Ed Poor. Having read the entire record of the Terri Schiavo edit war, it appeared to me that Ed Poor had said that he thought the mediation had been a success. FuelWagon said that progress had been made, but that more progress needed to be made, and wished him a good Wikibreak and vacation. Then, afterward, FuelWagon claimed that the mediation had failed. I see no real dispute between FuelWagon and Ed Poor, only a retroactive decision that FuelWagon did not get what he wanted, which was to have a recognition that FuelWagon was right and SlimVirgin was wrong.
I do not know what the issues are that FuelWagon wants to mediate between him and Ed Poor. It appears to me that Ed Poor did his job as mediator honorably. He did not do perfectly, but that is asking too much. Anyway, FuelWagon's use of profanity in the Terri Schiavo edit war really had made civility difficult.
I think that FuelWagon could be an extremely productive and valuable editor if he could control his anger and stop dwelling on past wrongs. I have no reason to think that he can. If he cannot stop engaging in claims of wrongs (when there really were lapses of perfection that he will not forgive), then he is setting himself up to be hard-banned.
FuelWagon, like Silverback, seems to think that Wikipedia has a corrupt culture. If that is what he really thinks, then he should find an honest culture. It is Usenet. It is a destructive culture, but it is honest, with no respect shown.
FuelWagon: What are you saying? Do you want Wikipedia to have a perfect culture? If so, find perfect people. Do you want to change the culture? If so, be constructive.
You write: "But by all means, focus on the process and ignore the problem and the problem users." What are you saying is the problem? Who are the problem users? Are you a problem user? Please define the problem. I do want the process to be improved. I would be even more interested in solving a problem, if we can identify it, other than that FuelWagon is angry. Robert McClenon 02:40, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
While we're on the subject of "past wrongs", the reason this entire RfC was started in the first place was because I didn't go along with the mob attempting to roast Zephram. Immediately after I posted comments Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Zephram_Stark#Outside_view_by_FuelWagon here, Carbonite suggests that he will Rfc me. Immediately after I post evidence Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Zephram_Stark/Evidence#Evidence_presented_by_User:FuelWagon here, Carbonite creates this RfC. By all means, look at the outside comment and the evidence I submitted and tell me what terrible, dishonest, or (to use Robert's word) disrespectful thing I said there. There are none. This RfC started as simple retribution and expanded into SlimVirgin dumping everything I had ever done wrong on wikipedia (she mentions a 3RR violation from six months ago) and she makes up a bunch of stuff too. FuelWagon 20:52, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
FuelWagon, you are one of the smartest contributors ever to arrive at Wikipedia, but your incivility is maddening, and it's got to stop.
Nobody wants to ban you. Be logical about this. If we wanted to ban you, the ban would have taken effect weeks ago. I've got enough pull around here -- yes, even after stepping down from bureacrat after making a terrible mistake -- to get you banned, if that's what I wanted. But I did not try to do that, because that is not what this community is about.
What the community wants is for you to work congenially with your fellow editors. Please contribute your keen insights in a felicitous fashion. Preserve harmony. Do not be abrasive.
And one more thing: when someone throws you an olive branch, recognize it. Uncle Ed 15:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I would appreciate an explanation by Ed Poor as to what he means by "having enough pull". FuelWagon: If you are correct in inferring that Wikipedia is run by a cabal, and that Ed meant what he said literally, then what do you gain by staying here and being loud? Ed: What did you mean? Robert McClenon 00:37, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, you'll have to put your accusations into RfC format because you've piled so many into your narative description that I can't address them one at a time. Also, just to be clear, are you opening this RfC up to include all history back to the point where you started editing the Terri Schiavo article? FuelWagon 22:55, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Oh, and I really like the snowball effect going on here. You guys couldn't find squat for policy violations on the Terrorism article. You never tried to resolve the dispute on that page in any meaningful way. So you're slowly expanding the evidence until it includes enough unrelated issues to make a case. By all means, if we're going to go all the way back to Terri Schiavo, then lets get everything in the RfC. FuelWagon 22:59, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
If you keep your cool going forward, then I would consider this RFC sucessful. If you feel you are losing your cool, walk away. The above comment strikes me as one that needs not be made. Just walk away. The person who gets the last word, in this whole thing, is the loser. Unless it's me, because I am cool. Hipocrite - «Talk» 19:23, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
After I posted my "Outside view", FW inserted my name on a list labelled "What you have here is a number of editors supporting this RfC against me who have all been involved in a content dispute with me recently, and many have a history with me that goes all the way back to opposing my RfC against SlimVirgin." Emphasis by italics and bolding in original: all. This is... imprecise, and makes me wonder if other commenters are being dismissed in FW's responses on equally slight qualifications. I have no content dispute with FW, and I don't "go all the way back" to the RfC on SlimVirgin. I did oppose FW's RfC on SV. That's it, that's my "history" with him. (All the way back in July.) Is that supposed to disqualify me from posting on this one? Or tend to prove that I'm biased? Seriously, Fuel, how do you figure? I haven't had anything to do with you since July. Not taken any interest in the pages you edit, not encountered you, not spoken to you, not spoken of you. You'd do yourself a favor by removing me from the list with an apology. You'd look better.
Oh, wait! I did speak to you one time after the SV RfC, I'm remembering. Also in July, a couple of weeks later. I wrote
on your Talk page: "Hi, FuelWagon. Since you and I haven't had any interchange except your RfC on SlimVirgin, and I had nothing but criticism for you there, I want to also tell you I'm very impressed by your input on
Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Cberlet & Willmcw. I think you're doing really good work on getting Rangerdude's attention." No good? Too fawning? Anyway, that's the whole of it.
Bishonen |
talk
10:31, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I think a number of SlimVirgin's supporters who claim to be neutral are avoiding addressing the issue around the Bensaccount RfC and are avoiding looking at some of the dates SLimVirgin provides as "proof" of stalking.
03:34, 22 August 2005: I file RfC against Bensacount, all 30 diffs of evidence point to Creation science article. [3]
03:26, 31 August 2005: SlimVirgin posts on my talk shes "All out of good faith" [4]
22:47, 31 August 2005: SV says Bensaccount RfC "looks like another inappropriate RfC filed by you," [5]
23:26, 15 September 2005: I cite "However" in "Words to avoid" to SlimVirgin [6]
22:57, 17 September 2005: SlimVirgin deletes the "However" entry [7]
20:11, 16 September 2005: This is the diff that SlimVirgin provides saying she arrived there first. [8]
Anyone who would qualify as a Juror here would clearly see SlimVirgin stalked me to the Bensaccount RfC and that her "proof" that I stalked her to the "words to avoid" article actually shows that she stalked me. FuelWagon 14:53, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
I just saw the RfC accuses me of "After reverting warring on Terri Schiavo for several months,". Did someone mean to say "after reverting vandals for several months"? Nothing like laying it on extra thick, I suppose. FuelWagon 18:44, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Since it is referenced in the RfC I have archived the chunk of my talk page that has El_C's attempts at combat resolution to a directory under this RfC Wikipedia:Requests for comment/FuelWagon 2/FuelWagonTalkPageSnapshot. I generally delete old comments on my talk page, but was chastized for doing so last time. Since the stuff seems relevant to this RfC, I've archived it under this RfC. FuelWagon 23:57, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I promised on the article page, that I'd put something on the talk page tonight, in response to those who want an explanation of how anyone could see an attack in Neuroscientist's long post. As I've pointed out, there's no reason to give an example of Neuroscientist violating WP:NPA, because nobody has claimed that he did. FuelWagon has claimed repeatedly that Neuroscientist was "attacked" and "cautioned", and now he has come out with the incredible statement that it's clear that Ed was threatening to block Neuroscientist. [9] I'm a bit stunned at that statement. I read Ed's post to Neuroscientist at the time, and I didn't see it as even remotely threatening a block. And I have to point out yet again that Ed did not block FuelWagon a second time. Here is the block log.
So, Ed did not accuse Neuroscientist of attacking SlimVirgin. He did not attack Neuroscientist; he did not threaten him. He asked him politely to try to avoid personal remarks. [10] On what grounds?
Here are some extracts from Neuroscientist's post. I've put it all in italics, to distinguish it from my own post, but the underlining is his.
SlimVirgin . . . has an exceptionally poor understanding of elementary neuroanatomy. . . . this person has absolutely, totally, completely, no idea of what she’s talking about. This is an example of the worst in Wikipedia, when complete, arrant nonsense serves as the basis for editorial decisions. . . .SlimVirgin is also wrong when she writes . . . . This is nonsense, of course. . . . Seriously guys, don't you think this is clunky? . . . Most of her assumptions were wrong. . . . [Some of her edits were] woefully ill-informed, or weak. . . . Leaving aside the hubris it must take [for SlimVirgin] to say that . . . . I have already shown that her assumptions of fact in her version of the introduction are riddled with error. . . . My final impressions here are that this User demonstrated very, very, very poor judgment by doing what she did. [11]
There is no reason to ask anyone to justify Ed's caution against personal attacks when Ed didn't caution against personal attacks. There was nothing threatening or attacking in Ed's request. However, Ed had been mediating the article for some time, and had presumably read some of Neuroscientist's remarks to Gordon ("you're talking horseshit") and others. Regardless of that, I cannot believe that any unbiased person would look at the extracts I've given from his lengthy post about SlimVirgin's edits, and conclude that it was just a scientific analysis of her edit with absolutely nothing personal. Ann Heneghan (talk) 00:24, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
In response to Neuroscientist posted a long criticism of SlimVirgin's edits. His criticisms were in a style that is characteristic of scientific peer review of questionable research, which pulls no punches and can be harsh and abrasive. As a newcomer to Wikipedia, he apparently did not realize that this style of criticism is, in the Wikipedia community, construed as a personal attack. by McClenon I requested someone illuminate those of us that can't see the personal attacks you and others see in Neuroscientist's posted criticism of SlimVirgin's edits. WAS 4.250 02:04, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
In response to as far as I know, the only person ever to use the word "attack" with regard to Neuroscientist's post is FuelWagon by Ann Heneghan I posted Finally, I don't appreciate the personal comments you've lobbed at me. A feature of this page, and this pertains to all the archives too, is that editors have repeatedly attacked one another, instead of concentrating on content. I'm sorry you felt it necessary to continue that tradition. SlimVirgin (talk) 07:04, July 13, 2005 (UTC) from Talk:Terri Schiavo/archive30. WAS 4.250 02:04, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Whitewashing [refers] to a particular form of censorship via omission, which seeks to "clean up" the portrayal of particular issues and facts which are already known from Censorship. Nobody here is doing that on purpose, but the human subconcious does that for each and every one of us. Good thing we have each other. WAS 4.250 02:36, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:Editcountitis: The problem with using edit counts to measure relative level of experience is that it does not take into account that users might have an extensive edit history prior to registering an account (posting anonymously) and that major and minor edits are counted equally, regardless of whether the edit is a typo fix or the creation of a full article. Hence, it is not a reliable way of telling how experienced or worthy an user truly is, even though using the edit count tool is often useful for obtaining a general idea of how the editor interacts with the Wikipedia. WAS 4.250 10:06, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Also, Edit counting (at the Meta-Wiki) is informative and interesting. WAS 4.250 10:12, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I think I should have posted this to Talk in the first place. TShilo12 endorsed my outside view and commented among other things that "the fact that FW has endorsed this summary is, at least in my view, somewhat encouraging...". This was my response:
Don't know what to tell you, Bishonen. There are no hypotheticals here. I filed the Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Bensaccount 22 August. Every diff of evidence involved relates to the Creation science article. SlimVirgin hadn't edited the article during that dispute. A week later, I submitted evidence to arbcom that was critical of SlimVirgin. She posted on my talk page that she is "all out of good faith" [13]. That very day, SlimVirgin suddenly takes a keen interest in proving the Bensaccount RfC "This looks like another example of an inappropriate RfC filed by you" [14]. In response to me posting evidence to arbcom against her, she takes her dispute with me to the Bensaccount RfC and crusades to label it "another inappropriate" RfC. I told her that if there was any problem with the Bensaccount RfC that a neutral, uninvolved admin should look at it, not her. But she wouldn't hand it off to anyone. She made it her personal crusade. An RfC she hadn't been involved in for a week, on an article that she had never edited in her life, and the day I submit evidence against her to arbcom, she turns the Bensaccount RfC into a battlefield to prove how evil I am. The only hypothetical was that if I had done the exact same thing to her, I'm sure everyone supporting SlimVirgin now would agree that I was harrassing and stalking her. But that she did it to me means that all her supporters find it perfectly acceptable to show up on an RfC out of the blue the day after I submit evidece that she didn't like. FuelWagon 14:03, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Threaded comment to Ta bu shi da yu's endorsement of outside view by Bishonen moved here. (Compare instructions at the bottom of the RfC page. The page is messy enough as it is.)
I am in general opposed to threaded comments in Requests for Comments. They can easily get out of hand and become very confusing as to who is saying what. Since a user conduct RfC is itself evidence that other discussion has failed, it is important for outsiders to be able to tell who has said what. I am normally in favor of the idea of moving threaded comments from RfC article pages to RfC talk pages. However, having said that, why is FuelWagon leaving his own threaded comments on the article page while moving other comments to the talk page?
It is quite true that SlimVirgin's gender is both obvious and irrelevant. Can we please avoid having a war about it? Robert McClenon 20:24, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Please stop deleting people's comments from the project page. You've done this with every single RfC I've ever seen you involved in. It's the same control freakery that caused a problem at Schiavo. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:15, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Can someone please explain why there's a revert war on the main project page? -- Viriditas | Talk 04:16, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
This revert war is ridiculous. FuelWagon is correct as to the letter and spirit of the RfC instructions that threaded comments are out of line. SlimVirgin is correct that 3RR has been violated. Any allegations of vandalism are out of line. It is not that important where the threaded comments are to have a revert war.
I thought that progress had been made with FuelWagon agreeing to stop demanding an accounting for "truth" about the past on talk pages, and to proceed to ensuring truth (e.g., accuracy, NPOV) on article pages. Can we move on? Robert McClenon 15:06, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
FuelWagon was correct as to the letter and the spirit of the RfC instructions that threaded comments, including a remark by SlimVirgin about her talk page making her gender clear, were out of line. SlimVirgin ws correct that FuelWagon violated 3RR. It appears that he deleted that comment at least 6 times. It appears that he was then blocked for 24 hours, which turned into a block of approximately 29 hours because three different admins noticed the violation at different times.
The only exceptions to 3RR are restoration of vandalism, and a few other situations that are agreed to have the character of vandalism. Edits by a user who has been banned from specific pages are not vandalism, but, like vandalism, they can be reverted without regard to 3RR (as well as blocking the user). FuelWagon was not reverting simple vandalism by moving the threaded comments. He was being bold in editing, but being bold does not justify 3RR.
I have not yet researched whether Purple Platypus is correct that SlimVirgin made a cloaked revert, which would have violated 3RR. FuelWagon clearly violated 3RR.
It was not that important where the comment about SlimVirgin's gender was to have an edit war. Ca we move on to truth on article pages? Robert McClenon 16:28, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I thought that FuelWagon was right on the issues on the Terri Schiavo article. I still do. I still think that SlimVirgin edited it recklessly. This is not important. I have defended FuelWagon mostly, although not to the extent that he wants, since then.
FuelWagon made the following post to my user talk page today:
Well, Robert, I know you have quite a bit of faith in the dispute resolution process at wikipedia (a somewhat naive faith, in my opinion, but your results may vary). I have told you from the beginning that process ain't worth Jack if the people running the process are themselves part of the problem. And I know you've got an overwhelming amount of faith in the mediation process, so I thought I'd report to you that the Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Ed Poor and FuelWagon has failed. The mediator (Improv) has withdrawn due to a complete lack of participation from Ed Poor. 16 days ago, Improv emailed us (because Ed Poor wanted to do mediation by email) a number of questions to start mediation. I responded in full. Ed responded basically saying he "needed more time". 15 days later, no response from Ed, and Improv emails him a "prod", asking for his answers. no response. A day later, Improv withdraws from mediation because he only mediates one dispute at a time, and Ed has gone 2+ weeks without a response to mediation. Ed did, however, find the time to make about 650 edits to wikipedia in those two weeks. So, now what, Robert? The people who are part of the problem are also part of the dispute resolution process, and if they don't want to deal with something, they either get their mob friends to close ranks around them, or they simply don't respond at all. Anyway, your calls to use the dispute resolution process appear to be pointless. Arbcom ruled Ed did no wrong and "didn't have time" to deal with finding out what particular wrongs he may have done. A pardon. I asked the mediation chairman if they had any process for dealing with a mediator who failed to mediate. He asked me if I wanted to stamp Ed's forhead with something or fire him as mediator. I try mediation, and Ed simply doesn't show up. So, in the future, please spare me your talk about resolving things through channels. I've tried every step, and as long as the people causing the problems have friends who are running the process, then the process is a joke. And I think your efforts to change or rearrange the process are pointless as long as friends are allowed to pass judgement on friends and enemies are allowed to gang up on their enemies. You seem to think a jury system is overkill. Everything I've seen says its the only thing that will fix the problem. But by all means, focus on the process and ignore the problem and the problem users. All the best. FuelWagon 01:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
It was never clear to me what FuelWagon wanted to mediate with Ed Poor. Having read the entire record of the Terri Schiavo edit war, it appeared to me that Ed Poor had said that he thought the mediation had been a success. FuelWagon said that progress had been made, but that more progress needed to be made, and wished him a good Wikibreak and vacation. Then, afterward, FuelWagon claimed that the mediation had failed. I see no real dispute between FuelWagon and Ed Poor, only a retroactive decision that FuelWagon did not get what he wanted, which was to have a recognition that FuelWagon was right and SlimVirgin was wrong.
I do not know what the issues are that FuelWagon wants to mediate between him and Ed Poor. It appears to me that Ed Poor did his job as mediator honorably. He did not do perfectly, but that is asking too much. Anyway, FuelWagon's use of profanity in the Terri Schiavo edit war really had made civility difficult.
I think that FuelWagon could be an extremely productive and valuable editor if he could control his anger and stop dwelling on past wrongs. I have no reason to think that he can. If he cannot stop engaging in claims of wrongs (when there really were lapses of perfection that he will not forgive), then he is setting himself up to be hard-banned.
FuelWagon, like Silverback, seems to think that Wikipedia has a corrupt culture. If that is what he really thinks, then he should find an honest culture. It is Usenet. It is a destructive culture, but it is honest, with no respect shown.
FuelWagon: What are you saying? Do you want Wikipedia to have a perfect culture? If so, find perfect people. Do you want to change the culture? If so, be constructive.
You write: "But by all means, focus on the process and ignore the problem and the problem users." What are you saying is the problem? Who are the problem users? Are you a problem user? Please define the problem. I do want the process to be improved. I would be even more interested in solving a problem, if we can identify it, other than that FuelWagon is angry. Robert McClenon 02:40, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
While we're on the subject of "past wrongs", the reason this entire RfC was started in the first place was because I didn't go along with the mob attempting to roast Zephram. Immediately after I posted comments Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Zephram_Stark#Outside_view_by_FuelWagon here, Carbonite suggests that he will Rfc me. Immediately after I post evidence Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Zephram_Stark/Evidence#Evidence_presented_by_User:FuelWagon here, Carbonite creates this RfC. By all means, look at the outside comment and the evidence I submitted and tell me what terrible, dishonest, or (to use Robert's word) disrespectful thing I said there. There are none. This RfC started as simple retribution and expanded into SlimVirgin dumping everything I had ever done wrong on wikipedia (she mentions a 3RR violation from six months ago) and she makes up a bunch of stuff too. FuelWagon 20:52, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
FuelWagon, you are one of the smartest contributors ever to arrive at Wikipedia, but your incivility is maddening, and it's got to stop.
Nobody wants to ban you. Be logical about this. If we wanted to ban you, the ban would have taken effect weeks ago. I've got enough pull around here -- yes, even after stepping down from bureacrat after making a terrible mistake -- to get you banned, if that's what I wanted. But I did not try to do that, because that is not what this community is about.
What the community wants is for you to work congenially with your fellow editors. Please contribute your keen insights in a felicitous fashion. Preserve harmony. Do not be abrasive.
And one more thing: when someone throws you an olive branch, recognize it. Uncle Ed 15:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I would appreciate an explanation by Ed Poor as to what he means by "having enough pull". FuelWagon: If you are correct in inferring that Wikipedia is run by a cabal, and that Ed meant what he said literally, then what do you gain by staying here and being loud? Ed: What did you mean? Robert McClenon 00:37, 11 November 2005 (UTC)