Could someone from the arbitration committee clarify when the temporary injunction against Yuber begins? SlimVirgin (talk) 00:37, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
In light of [1] and [2] shouldn't [3] be changed? or am I missing something? Tomer TALK 05:46, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
I'm a little concerned; the findings so far seem directed mostly to examing content for POV editing; however, the evidence provided relate far more to other policy concerns, particularly persistent edit-warring as a preferred method of interacting, and also WP:POINT, bad faith edits, civility, etc. Jayjg (talk) 4 July 2005 18:23 (UTC)
Is Yuber's use of open proxies to continue his edit wars of any relevance to the evidence or the decision? Jayjg (talk) 18:42, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Yes. Where would you like me to send it? Jayjg (talk) 17:41, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Here is a recent example: 63.70.62.84 ( talk · contribs) Note his regular updates to User:Tranlen. The history of User:Tranlen will also show you a number of other open proxies he has used, including some which have been involved in turning articles into re-directs etc. Jayjg (talk) 16:53, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Shouldn't these specify that the administrator should be one who is not involved in editing the article? Otherwise it seems very much open to abuse. — Charles P. (Mirv) 16:19, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
I have a couple of concerns about the proposed decision.
1) First, the main problem with Yuber was constant reverting. The content issues were secondary to that, because sometimes his edits seemed okay and sometimes they weren't. The big issue was the frequency with which he reverted to his preferred version. He'd sometimes go on for weeks reverting to the same version, against several other editors' wishes, and often with little or no discussion on talk. The remedy that says: " ... Yuber may be banned from editing any article which relates to Islam or to the Israeli-Paletinian conflict ... This remedy is crafted to permit Yuber continuing to edit articles in these areas which are not sources of controversy," will not solve the problem of Yuber's reverting in those other areas.
2) Evidence against Guy Montag and Jayjg was not presented, so far as I know, and I'm not aware that they were told what the allegations were, or given the chance to mount a defense. It therefore seems unfair that there's a remedy against Guy and a caution against Jayjg. It seems particularly unfair to Jayjg, as he wasn't a party to the dispute, either as a complainant or a defendant. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:42, July 24, 2005 (UTC)
1 - Yuber engaged in serial reverting and disgusting conduct the same as the hated user "Enviroknot", but is getting off with a much lighter sentence. Why? Could it be that he's the incestuous pet of certain not-to-be-named-because-then-they-would-call-it-a-personal-attack ArbCom members, or a sockpuppet of one of their buddies?
2 - I agree with SlimVirgin: the fact that other editors, up to and including Enviroknot, were reverting Yuber cannot be used against them. Yuber was a serial revert warrior, and he pushed the term "content dispute" to the limit in introducing obvious falsehoods on almost every occasion as well as violating multiple WP policies.
3 - It is PATENTLY obvious that the user " EnviroFuck" and Anonymous IP 67.78.186.19 is really Yuber evading their temporary injunction and yet the ArbCom has ignored this.
Yuber is back and evading his ban once more: IP Address 63.70.62.84.
Fred, regarding the point I made above that the main problem with Yuber was reverting, and not content, I've added some more evidence to the evidence page showing his reverting pattern on just one page, regarding just one paragraph. I've also included some diffs showing attempts to reason with him, and I've referred to e-mails he and I exchanged, which I can't reproduce without his permission, but I've quoted one sentence from one of them to give you the flavor of what I was saying to him. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:10, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
Yuber is evading his ban again. User:Siegerz
Unless I missed something, Guy Montag does not have a finding of fact against him, but is being placed under sanction?-- Tznkai 17:26, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
What the hell is this? I have absolutely nothing to do with this arbitration. No one initiated a RFA on me, no evidence has been compiled against me, no one has even judged that my non existant case is worthy to go before arbitration. What right do you have to place phantom injunctions on me without notifying me that there
This was a clear cut case of an incredibly disruptive editor, with literaly dozens of pages of evidence presented against him, and many other editors acting as witnesses, including 2 administrators, and you choose the road of moral equivalance, as though I caused the same amount of damage as that internet troll an injunction was placed on unanimously? Absolutely scandalous. Guy Montag 08:40, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
But he did not complain about me. He did not even submit any evidence. The bulk of the work and the case revolved around Yuber's aggressive non cooperative editing, which I documented in literally 40 articles. You choose 3 cases against Yuber out more than 3 dozen to equivicate that I was just as noncooperative with other users, as distruptive, and as aggressive as he was? That is pure baloney. You took things out of context, when Yuber became increasingly intrasingent toward any user who disagreed with him, he would revert the page to his version. He started simultaneous edit wars in 3 pages at the same time. Pages had to be constantly locked because of him. I was but one of the half dozen editors that presented evidence and narration against him in the RFA, and my edits came out because he was regarded as a troll, who needed to be constantly monitored. Giving us both equivalent rulings is tantamount to sentencing me for self defense. Guy Montag 18:24, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
You mentioned that "conquered" is a fighting word? On what basis, because I have never heard of it being described as so by any editor. Are you guys even going to discuss this or should I just silently sit through this show trial? Guy Montag
Not only has this been a consensus word for more than 2 years, but the only problems that arrive are from anon trolls who insert pov, and disregard wiki policy. I have had almost no problems with long time editors, Palestinian, Arabist, or Arab, who are aware of wiki policy. He had a problem with it because he was a disruptive non cooperative editor. Guy Montag 18:24, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
I can improve what? You haven't proved a damned thing yet. You mentioned that conquered is a "fighting word". On what basis? And on what basis are you equating the overwhelming vandalism committed by Yuber with my nearly clean record? Guy Montag 02:31, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
That is your pov and you are certainly entitled to hold it, but my job is to neutralize wording that would sound as taking a side, which is against npov policies. I have done this in nearly every article I edited, from Greek military junta of 1967-1974 to Qana, I have done nothing more then neutralize pov wording. It is not up to wikipedia to state disputed claims as facts. Not only are you wrong that the rest of the world including all experts in international law consider Israel an occupying power, but you have absolutely no way of proving such an assertion. In fact, there are competing international legal theories and international law does not have a clear cut definition. If it did, there wouldn't be so many international disputes over land claims, from Kashmir to the Falkland Islands. Whether Israel is an "occupying power" is up to the reader to decide, not for us to shove it down their throats with pov wording. Guy Montag 03:15, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
In no article did I erase viewpoint in disputed information. You show one case, out of context, where Yuber delibereately tried to insert inflammatory information in in places where they do not belong. It is my policy to instead of having duplicated sentences about the international law dispute in several articles to instead link them to International law and the Arab-Israeli conflict. Guy Montag 03:49, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
I have very little to do with enviroknot. I know very little of his case, and the only information to me that mattered was that he could be used to stop Yuber's constant vandalism. After enviro became more belligerent, and even Islamophobic, I ceased all contact with him. As for being aggressive, it is my right, as it is ever wikipedian's right, to push valid information from my pov as long as it follows wiki policy. Guy Montag 05:52, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
The remedy is probation which requires that an administrator find that his editing in a particular article is disruptive. If he disrupts less articles then Yuber the administrators will ban him from fewer articles. If he disrupts no articles, he will be banned from no articles. Fred Bauder 03:41, September 13, 2005 (UTC)
For evidence, see Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Yuber/Proposed_decision#The_Six_Day_War_example and supporting evidence Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Yuber/Evidence/Six Day War. Also Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Yuber/Proposed_decision#Cave_of_the_Patriarchs_example and supporting evidence Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Yuber/Evidence/Cave of the Patriarchs. Fred Bauder 01:04, July 31, 2005 (UTC)
Here is but a short list of a recent edit war over Bethlehem, Guy Montag not a serial reverter, what a ridiculous statement!
Finally, someone is listening. Guy Montag 05:06, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Guy Montag ( talk · contribs) on his user page presents himself as an advocate for "the nationalist right wing in Israel." He has functioned in that role as an editor, see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Yuber/Evidence/Six Day War and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Yuber/Evidence/Cave of the Patriarchs. In the first example he insists on use of "conquered" to describe the status of the West Bank; in the second he insists on use of "Judea" as describing the location of the Cave of the Patriarchs. He does not merely insist that the Right Wing Nationalist viewpoint be included but that the Palestinian viewpoint be replaced by Nationalist language and reverts to that end, often without comment. When he does comment he puts up a smokescreen of removing POV while simultaneously editing in a POV manner. He does pay attention to Jayjg and other editors and, when reined in, accepts compromise, but that is after engaging aggressively in struggles to impose the Nationalist viewpoint. It is this aggressive behavior which forms the basis for my recommendation that he be placed on Wikipedia:Probation. If he is reasonably responsible in his editing I would not expect him to be banned from any articles. If he continues a pattern of aggressive POV editing, probation might bite. Fred Bauder 12:21, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Although I am not happy with these proceedings, I will do my best to show that my views were miscontrued.
I did not delete any evidence. The proper place to link evidence is the Evidence page against me. This page does not exist. Guy Montag 23:49, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I deleted an anonymous's comments, but you cannot consider it evidence, as including me in this arbitration is dubiously legitimate. I requested arbitration against Yuber, not myself. I think I will email you about my objections to this hearing. Guy Montag 00:12, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
As to writing up evidence on a subpage, in each instance which concerns a specific article in the proposed findings of fact there is the link to the subpage is the very first words in the finding, "detailed analysis". I created those subpages as the other arbitrators were complaining that I was putting too much detail in the finding of fact. However creating a subpage for detailed analysis does create a question of whether everyone could find it. That is why I then moved to the /workshop page for that sort of detailed analysis. I have added new sections to the proposed decision page and clarified the links. I hope that will be sufficient to put Guy Montag on notice. He has plenty to time to make whatever response he chooses to these findings of fact and proposed remedies, including undertaking to edit in a less disruptive point of view way. Fred Bauder 13:38, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I want to understand the rationale for the proceedings against me. In my view the commitee has:
1.) violated Arbitration Committee policy because:
"'The Arbitrators will not hear disputes where they have not been requested to arbitrate. The Committee sees itself as a judicial body in the style of English Common Law, rather than a proactive team of independent prosecutors." [40]
After all of these breaches and initiation of a proceeding that I and others see as illegitmate, the commitee has added another additition to the arbitration proceedings against me for allegedly erasing evidence. The immediate question that comes to mind, is what evidence? I am not a defendent.
The comment submitted by the anon user was not evidence submitted in a findings of fact before the arbitration members, who were supposed to decide if there is a case against me before it goes to a vote. In fact, it is a case against Yuber, a case which I initiated and submitted droves of evidence to support my position. The evidence was so overwhelming against Yuber that 7 arbitration members unanimously decided to enact an injuction against him editing, and removed a 24 hour wait period, something reserved for exceptional cases.
The "evidence" did not go before a finding of fact, nor was it erased in the article listed as Evidence against me, but in a talk page, where an anonymous user tried to submit false information in the middle of discussion, which I consider to be a personal attack against me.
Guy Montag 17:41, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I want to understand the rationale for the proceedings against me. In my view the commitee has:
1.) violated Arbitration Committee policy because:
He made a counterstatement, but he did not submit an RFA, nor did he submit any evidence. In fact, you stated that he refused to submit evidence. You should have thrown out his complaint then and there. It was a statement by him in a case opened against him, nothing more. If he wanted to make a complaint, he could have initiated an RFA, but he did not. Instead, the committee took it upon themselves to, as I see it, go beyond the scope of this case, and initiate a case against me while violating procedural policy. Guy Montag 19:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
These were not submitted in the initial RFA against me, but against Yuber, while the last two are a result of the Committee going beyond their scope of duties and submitting evidence which has nothing to do with Yuber (Palestinian evidence) or would not have been submitted in the first place (deletion of "evidence") if the committee arbitrated in the case of Yuber, instead of arbitrarily including me in the decision. Guy Montag 19:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Nontheless, the evidence page overwhelmingly included evidence to be submitted against Yuber, nowhere did it include evidence against me, hence I had no reason to believe that I was a defending party. Guy Montag 19:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I think Guy's interpretation is resonable. Guy is trying to improve and enhance wikipedia, not play wiki-lawyer games with the ArbCom. Klonimus 02:07, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Yet, I had no idea that I was a defendent in a case I made. Guy Montag 19:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
"'The Arbitrators will not hear disputes where they have not been requested to arbitrate. The Committee sees itself as a judicial body in the style of English Common Law, rather than a proactive team of independent prosecutors." [41]
Then why was I not notified that I was to be included in the arbitration. I was under the impression that only Yuber was to be a part of this case, as he submitted no evidence, and his statements were backed up by no facts, nor were they in a seperate RFA.
Interestingly enough, Ambi, examined the evidence, and found that only Yuber is worthy of arbitration. You and Grunt examined the evidence on June 5th, but did not return later to change your opinion after droves of other evidence was submitted against Yuber. Please explain. Guy Montag 19:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Why would I initiate a case, knowing that even though I submit incredible amounts of evidence against an abusive editor, I would get the same punishment as him for minor alleged infractions? Especially since they have no bearing on why I submitted to arbitrate in the first place?
I wish to remind the committee that I submitted this case because Yuber was making dozens of articles related to the Arab-Israeli conflict unbearable to edit. It became so unbearable that I took it upon myself, at the request and with the cooperation of several other editors, to compile evidence to get him banned from wikipedia, as he was ruining the spirit of cooperation we had before his arrival. I was motivated not because of his pov, but because of his non cooperative behavior, with the fact that he would revert at the slightest rewording of his pov sentences, that he couldn't cooperate with people in talk, and would arrive weeks later to revert an article improved on, to one that fit his world views. He was responsible for vandalism in Qana, where he would revert my entire article because he didn't like the title, to Queantra, where he would copy pov excepts from UN reports and virtually replace the page with them.
My editorial behavior doesn't even fall near the same catagory as Yuber, because if it did, I would have had an injunction on me too. Yet, I am defending myself because the committee has found that it is just to equate a punishment between the antithesis of a wikipedia editor, Yuber, and me, who is a specialist in his field, which happens to be Jewish Nationalism. Guy Montag 19:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Yuber did not make an official complaint, he simply made a counter statement. I always thought that the committee needed evidence to be submitted in an RFA by those who initiate a claim before they accept a case in which the defendent counter accusses (like you had any doubt that he wouldn't) those who initiated the proceedings. Yuber neither submitted any evidence, nor initiated a seperate RFA, as is the norm when two different people accuse each other. Arbitrator Ambi noted that Yuber submitted no evidence against me. Was this overlooked by the committee? Guy Montag 19:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
After all of these breaches and initiation of a proceeding that I and others see as illegitmate, the commitee has added another additition to the arbitration proceedings against me for allegedly erasing evidence. The immediate question that comes to mind, is what evidence? I am not a defendent.
I believed that the anon user was Yuber, who has an injunction against editing, and that his statements were personal attacks against me, as they are summarized outside context. Guy Montag 19:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
The comment submitted by the anon user was not evidence submitted in a findings of fact before the arbitration members, who were supposed to decide if there is a case against me before it goes to a vote. In fact, it is a case against Yuber, a case which I initiated and submitted droves of evidence to support my position. The evidence was so overwhelming against Yuber that 7 arbitration members unanimously decided to enact an injuction against him editing, and removed a 24 hour wait period, something reserved for exceptional cases.
What was his case? Where is the evidence he submitted? Why does an exceptional case that I compiled against Yuber equal in consequence against me, when I have shown that Yuber is overwhelmingly more responsible. You are giving Yuber, who was found disruptive enough to have an injuction placed on him immediately, the same punishment as you are giving me, which I find incredibly unjust. It is to this which I most object. Guy Montag 19:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
The "evidence" did not go before a finding of fact, nor was it erased in the article listed as Evidence against me, but in a talk page, where an anonymous user tried to submit false information in the middle of discussion, which I consider to be a personal attack against me.
Guy Montag 17:41, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Than allow me to put it in context. I found a page that needed factual and npov improvement. Among the actions taken was a general rewrite of the article, as I had in different articles I found lacking.
I reorganized the article and changed it to a standard used in all city articles. Among changes I made, was changing Palestinian city, to large Palestinian population, because it was my view that this would prejudge ownership before the conflict between Palestinians and Israelis was over.
But I also added, geography, demographics, and expanded the history. User Heraclius, who I suspected before and still do that he is a sockpuppet of Yuber, initiated an edit war over my rewrite, as he had in several other places for example Imam al-hams, where I rewrote the pov article. He has already mentioned many times that he does not wish to cooperate with me. After I found that Heraclius would not discuss, the page was locked by Slimvirgin. During the lockdown, I engaged in active discussion with other members to reach a consensus. And a consensus has been reached, and I uphold this consensus. In Bethlehem, I merely expanded the same rationale we used to reach consensus in Nablus and applied it to Bethlehem. Guy Montag 19:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I think that Fred Bauder's personal animus for Guy, prevents him from ajudicating this case in an impartial manner. It's clear to me that Fred disagree's with Guy's politics, and I beleive that this clouds his judgement to a material degree. Fred Bauder should therefore recuse himself.
This is evidenced by his proposals to punish and block Guy, while admiting that the case against Guy is weak and proposing Sanctions against Guy without notifiying him. Fred's interpreting Guy's use of the term "Conqured terrortories" (standard term used by the israeli goverment) as POV insertion worthy of sanction and then his later backtracking, are to me signs of insupressable bias and ignorance that prevent impartial adjudication by Fred Bauder. Fred Bauder should therefore recuse himself.
Guy has a long history of making useful and positive contributions to wikipedia. Yuber has a long history of distructive edit/revert wars on wikipedia. Whereas no one defends Yuber's egregious actions, several people (Myself and Slim Virgin) have defended Guy and made strong arguments on his behalf. While edit warring is lame, Yuber's use of anon proxies to bypass his blocks so as to continue edit warring are much worse. To draw a false moral equivalence is shameful. Fred Bauder should therefore recuse himself. Klonimus 06:09, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't think so. Guy Montag has made an open declaration of his intent to edit in a POV way. He has carried out that intent. The findings of fact show that. He has shown absolutely no intent to edit in any other way. While I have never supported the Zionist project I have never opposed it either. Other than the prejudice I harbor toward any disruptive POV editor I don't have any strong feelings about Guy Montag or his point of view. Fred Bauder 13:44, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
I made no such intent. I merely mentioned on my user page that I am here to represent Jewish nationalist thought where it is missing, misapplied or slandered, which in no way constitutes an intent to break wikipedia policy. I made my intentions public as a sign of good will toward other users. I have no reason to edit in any other way, I am professional in my field, that is Jewish nationalism, and it is my right to insert relevent information from my pov into articles as long as they conform to wikipedia policy, and they almost always do.
I am still waiting for an answer as to why Ambi, who after more evidence was presented, accepted arbitration against Yuber only, while you made a preliminary decision on June 5th and did not change it after more evidence was presented. Guy Montag 23:17, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
This is all getting very repetitive. Recently people have been adding loads of IP addresses and usernames onto the evidence page that they think are me. I guess it's somehow up to me to prove that I'm not any of those addresses. I have no idea how to do this, and even if I did, it would probably take an amount of time that I simply don't have. Slimvirgin has just suggested I should admit to being all of the people I am accused of being in order to expedite this case. I am willing to do this, since it seems the other participant in this case is just stalling for time. Can one of the arbcom members please give me an idea of what needs to happen in order to close this seemingly never-ending case and get the probation started? Yuber (talk) 01:04, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes I did make those edits. Yes I have violated injunction, been very evil, and so on. No I will not do it anymore. Is anything else needed? Yuber (talk) 01:36, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes I did make those edits. Yes I have violated injunction, been very evil, and so on. No I will not do it anymore. Is anything else needed? Yuber (talk) 01:53, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Please quit jerking us around Fred Bauder 02:18, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I assure you that no jerking of any kind is taking place here. Is the list of random IP's and users too large? If you want, you can select a few that you want me to admit to and I'd be happy to do it. Yuber (talk) 02:35, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
His attittude didn't change, but his behavior and actions progessively worsened, until it became unbearable to work with him and an arbitration hearing had to be filed. Guy Montag 18:51, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I protest bieng placed under the same restrictions as Yuber. Whatever case was for one reason or another compiled against me (under shady reasons) does not weigh heavily enough to warrant the same restrictions as they do on Yuber, who I don't believe should ever edit on wikipedia again. May I mention that it is not because of his pov, but because he is simply not a nice person and impossible to work with.
Guy Montag 03:05, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
In the section called "Use of sockpuppets by Yuber," members are voting either to oppose or to abstain from voting about the issue, but there is no support section. I'm assuming this is a mistake? SlimVirgin (talk) 06:13, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
With all due respect, but is this committee out of its gourd? I have done nothing to justify this draconian ban. Guy Montag 02:21, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
They make a fuss because there is something wrong with the committee's decision making process, and your unwillingness to answer simple questions. Why did Ambi believe that this case pertained only to Yuber when more evidence was presented, but you made a preliminary decision, and did not change it after more evidence was presented? Why am I being subjected to the same punishment as Yuber? You are only weakening the legitimacy of the committee by going through such unjust actions. Guy Montag 21:10, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Yuber is deliberately and admittedly making false statements in order to expediate his case. Above he admits to being guilty of sockpuppetry by specifically admitting to being certain user and IP accounts, while in the same admission he has contradicted these statements by suggesting that the users are actually other people. He is making a mockery of the arbitration process. In the past, he has admitted to having no concern for any rule of law on Wikipedia due to his ability to use open proxies. In a real arbitration court, lying to the court is a crime called perjury. Without punishing perjury, no tribunal, court, or arbitration process can succeed. Yuber is too dishonest for an arbitation hearing and should recieve the maximum sentence. -- Zeno of Elea 06:47, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Fred, could you say what you mean, please, by "Probation seems unworkable in this case due to solidarity with him by other editors in this area," and "How could any administrator employ [probation] when you (and your supporters) make such a fuss"? It would be helpful if you could say who the supporters are, and what kind of fuss you foresee that might make probation unworkable. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:19, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
I´m not sure where to report this (or if indeed it should be reported) but FYI: user Guy Montag is active as of today (11 Oct) on article Zionist terrorism. Regards, Huldra 12:03, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
Is there a place to appeal this decision? This the most blatant example of an unjust decision I have yet seen, and I am not saying this because I am the target of this decision, but because I ended up having a stiffer punishment placed upon me than the original target of the committee.
Guy Montag 00:02, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Could someone from the arbitration committee clarify when the temporary injunction against Yuber begins? SlimVirgin (talk) 00:37, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
In light of [1] and [2] shouldn't [3] be changed? or am I missing something? Tomer TALK 05:46, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
I'm a little concerned; the findings so far seem directed mostly to examing content for POV editing; however, the evidence provided relate far more to other policy concerns, particularly persistent edit-warring as a preferred method of interacting, and also WP:POINT, bad faith edits, civility, etc. Jayjg (talk) 4 July 2005 18:23 (UTC)
Is Yuber's use of open proxies to continue his edit wars of any relevance to the evidence or the decision? Jayjg (talk) 18:42, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Yes. Where would you like me to send it? Jayjg (talk) 17:41, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Here is a recent example: 63.70.62.84 ( talk · contribs) Note his regular updates to User:Tranlen. The history of User:Tranlen will also show you a number of other open proxies he has used, including some which have been involved in turning articles into re-directs etc. Jayjg (talk) 16:53, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Shouldn't these specify that the administrator should be one who is not involved in editing the article? Otherwise it seems very much open to abuse. — Charles P. (Mirv) 16:19, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
I have a couple of concerns about the proposed decision.
1) First, the main problem with Yuber was constant reverting. The content issues were secondary to that, because sometimes his edits seemed okay and sometimes they weren't. The big issue was the frequency with which he reverted to his preferred version. He'd sometimes go on for weeks reverting to the same version, against several other editors' wishes, and often with little or no discussion on talk. The remedy that says: " ... Yuber may be banned from editing any article which relates to Islam or to the Israeli-Paletinian conflict ... This remedy is crafted to permit Yuber continuing to edit articles in these areas which are not sources of controversy," will not solve the problem of Yuber's reverting in those other areas.
2) Evidence against Guy Montag and Jayjg was not presented, so far as I know, and I'm not aware that they were told what the allegations were, or given the chance to mount a defense. It therefore seems unfair that there's a remedy against Guy and a caution against Jayjg. It seems particularly unfair to Jayjg, as he wasn't a party to the dispute, either as a complainant or a defendant. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:42, July 24, 2005 (UTC)
1 - Yuber engaged in serial reverting and disgusting conduct the same as the hated user "Enviroknot", but is getting off with a much lighter sentence. Why? Could it be that he's the incestuous pet of certain not-to-be-named-because-then-they-would-call-it-a-personal-attack ArbCom members, or a sockpuppet of one of their buddies?
2 - I agree with SlimVirgin: the fact that other editors, up to and including Enviroknot, were reverting Yuber cannot be used against them. Yuber was a serial revert warrior, and he pushed the term "content dispute" to the limit in introducing obvious falsehoods on almost every occasion as well as violating multiple WP policies.
3 - It is PATENTLY obvious that the user " EnviroFuck" and Anonymous IP 67.78.186.19 is really Yuber evading their temporary injunction and yet the ArbCom has ignored this.
Yuber is back and evading his ban once more: IP Address 63.70.62.84.
Fred, regarding the point I made above that the main problem with Yuber was reverting, and not content, I've added some more evidence to the evidence page showing his reverting pattern on just one page, regarding just one paragraph. I've also included some diffs showing attempts to reason with him, and I've referred to e-mails he and I exchanged, which I can't reproduce without his permission, but I've quoted one sentence from one of them to give you the flavor of what I was saying to him. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:10, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
Yuber is evading his ban again. User:Siegerz
Unless I missed something, Guy Montag does not have a finding of fact against him, but is being placed under sanction?-- Tznkai 17:26, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
What the hell is this? I have absolutely nothing to do with this arbitration. No one initiated a RFA on me, no evidence has been compiled against me, no one has even judged that my non existant case is worthy to go before arbitration. What right do you have to place phantom injunctions on me without notifying me that there
This was a clear cut case of an incredibly disruptive editor, with literaly dozens of pages of evidence presented against him, and many other editors acting as witnesses, including 2 administrators, and you choose the road of moral equivalance, as though I caused the same amount of damage as that internet troll an injunction was placed on unanimously? Absolutely scandalous. Guy Montag 08:40, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
But he did not complain about me. He did not even submit any evidence. The bulk of the work and the case revolved around Yuber's aggressive non cooperative editing, which I documented in literally 40 articles. You choose 3 cases against Yuber out more than 3 dozen to equivicate that I was just as noncooperative with other users, as distruptive, and as aggressive as he was? That is pure baloney. You took things out of context, when Yuber became increasingly intrasingent toward any user who disagreed with him, he would revert the page to his version. He started simultaneous edit wars in 3 pages at the same time. Pages had to be constantly locked because of him. I was but one of the half dozen editors that presented evidence and narration against him in the RFA, and my edits came out because he was regarded as a troll, who needed to be constantly monitored. Giving us both equivalent rulings is tantamount to sentencing me for self defense. Guy Montag 18:24, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
You mentioned that "conquered" is a fighting word? On what basis, because I have never heard of it being described as so by any editor. Are you guys even going to discuss this or should I just silently sit through this show trial? Guy Montag
Not only has this been a consensus word for more than 2 years, but the only problems that arrive are from anon trolls who insert pov, and disregard wiki policy. I have had almost no problems with long time editors, Palestinian, Arabist, or Arab, who are aware of wiki policy. He had a problem with it because he was a disruptive non cooperative editor. Guy Montag 18:24, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
I can improve what? You haven't proved a damned thing yet. You mentioned that conquered is a "fighting word". On what basis? And on what basis are you equating the overwhelming vandalism committed by Yuber with my nearly clean record? Guy Montag 02:31, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
That is your pov and you are certainly entitled to hold it, but my job is to neutralize wording that would sound as taking a side, which is against npov policies. I have done this in nearly every article I edited, from Greek military junta of 1967-1974 to Qana, I have done nothing more then neutralize pov wording. It is not up to wikipedia to state disputed claims as facts. Not only are you wrong that the rest of the world including all experts in international law consider Israel an occupying power, but you have absolutely no way of proving such an assertion. In fact, there are competing international legal theories and international law does not have a clear cut definition. If it did, there wouldn't be so many international disputes over land claims, from Kashmir to the Falkland Islands. Whether Israel is an "occupying power" is up to the reader to decide, not for us to shove it down their throats with pov wording. Guy Montag 03:15, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
In no article did I erase viewpoint in disputed information. You show one case, out of context, where Yuber delibereately tried to insert inflammatory information in in places where they do not belong. It is my policy to instead of having duplicated sentences about the international law dispute in several articles to instead link them to International law and the Arab-Israeli conflict. Guy Montag 03:49, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
I have very little to do with enviroknot. I know very little of his case, and the only information to me that mattered was that he could be used to stop Yuber's constant vandalism. After enviro became more belligerent, and even Islamophobic, I ceased all contact with him. As for being aggressive, it is my right, as it is ever wikipedian's right, to push valid information from my pov as long as it follows wiki policy. Guy Montag 05:52, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
The remedy is probation which requires that an administrator find that his editing in a particular article is disruptive. If he disrupts less articles then Yuber the administrators will ban him from fewer articles. If he disrupts no articles, he will be banned from no articles. Fred Bauder 03:41, September 13, 2005 (UTC)
For evidence, see Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Yuber/Proposed_decision#The_Six_Day_War_example and supporting evidence Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Yuber/Evidence/Six Day War. Also Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Yuber/Proposed_decision#Cave_of_the_Patriarchs_example and supporting evidence Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Yuber/Evidence/Cave of the Patriarchs. Fred Bauder 01:04, July 31, 2005 (UTC)
Here is but a short list of a recent edit war over Bethlehem, Guy Montag not a serial reverter, what a ridiculous statement!
Finally, someone is listening. Guy Montag 05:06, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Guy Montag ( talk · contribs) on his user page presents himself as an advocate for "the nationalist right wing in Israel." He has functioned in that role as an editor, see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Yuber/Evidence/Six Day War and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Yuber/Evidence/Cave of the Patriarchs. In the first example he insists on use of "conquered" to describe the status of the West Bank; in the second he insists on use of "Judea" as describing the location of the Cave of the Patriarchs. He does not merely insist that the Right Wing Nationalist viewpoint be included but that the Palestinian viewpoint be replaced by Nationalist language and reverts to that end, often without comment. When he does comment he puts up a smokescreen of removing POV while simultaneously editing in a POV manner. He does pay attention to Jayjg and other editors and, when reined in, accepts compromise, but that is after engaging aggressively in struggles to impose the Nationalist viewpoint. It is this aggressive behavior which forms the basis for my recommendation that he be placed on Wikipedia:Probation. If he is reasonably responsible in his editing I would not expect him to be banned from any articles. If he continues a pattern of aggressive POV editing, probation might bite. Fred Bauder 12:21, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Although I am not happy with these proceedings, I will do my best to show that my views were miscontrued.
I did not delete any evidence. The proper place to link evidence is the Evidence page against me. This page does not exist. Guy Montag 23:49, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I deleted an anonymous's comments, but you cannot consider it evidence, as including me in this arbitration is dubiously legitimate. I requested arbitration against Yuber, not myself. I think I will email you about my objections to this hearing. Guy Montag 00:12, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
As to writing up evidence on a subpage, in each instance which concerns a specific article in the proposed findings of fact there is the link to the subpage is the very first words in the finding, "detailed analysis". I created those subpages as the other arbitrators were complaining that I was putting too much detail in the finding of fact. However creating a subpage for detailed analysis does create a question of whether everyone could find it. That is why I then moved to the /workshop page for that sort of detailed analysis. I have added new sections to the proposed decision page and clarified the links. I hope that will be sufficient to put Guy Montag on notice. He has plenty to time to make whatever response he chooses to these findings of fact and proposed remedies, including undertaking to edit in a less disruptive point of view way. Fred Bauder 13:38, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I want to understand the rationale for the proceedings against me. In my view the commitee has:
1.) violated Arbitration Committee policy because:
"'The Arbitrators will not hear disputes where they have not been requested to arbitrate. The Committee sees itself as a judicial body in the style of English Common Law, rather than a proactive team of independent prosecutors." [40]
After all of these breaches and initiation of a proceeding that I and others see as illegitmate, the commitee has added another additition to the arbitration proceedings against me for allegedly erasing evidence. The immediate question that comes to mind, is what evidence? I am not a defendent.
The comment submitted by the anon user was not evidence submitted in a findings of fact before the arbitration members, who were supposed to decide if there is a case against me before it goes to a vote. In fact, it is a case against Yuber, a case which I initiated and submitted droves of evidence to support my position. The evidence was so overwhelming against Yuber that 7 arbitration members unanimously decided to enact an injuction against him editing, and removed a 24 hour wait period, something reserved for exceptional cases.
The "evidence" did not go before a finding of fact, nor was it erased in the article listed as Evidence against me, but in a talk page, where an anonymous user tried to submit false information in the middle of discussion, which I consider to be a personal attack against me.
Guy Montag 17:41, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I want to understand the rationale for the proceedings against me. In my view the commitee has:
1.) violated Arbitration Committee policy because:
He made a counterstatement, but he did not submit an RFA, nor did he submit any evidence. In fact, you stated that he refused to submit evidence. You should have thrown out his complaint then and there. It was a statement by him in a case opened against him, nothing more. If he wanted to make a complaint, he could have initiated an RFA, but he did not. Instead, the committee took it upon themselves to, as I see it, go beyond the scope of this case, and initiate a case against me while violating procedural policy. Guy Montag 19:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
These were not submitted in the initial RFA against me, but against Yuber, while the last two are a result of the Committee going beyond their scope of duties and submitting evidence which has nothing to do with Yuber (Palestinian evidence) or would not have been submitted in the first place (deletion of "evidence") if the committee arbitrated in the case of Yuber, instead of arbitrarily including me in the decision. Guy Montag 19:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Nontheless, the evidence page overwhelmingly included evidence to be submitted against Yuber, nowhere did it include evidence against me, hence I had no reason to believe that I was a defending party. Guy Montag 19:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I think Guy's interpretation is resonable. Guy is trying to improve and enhance wikipedia, not play wiki-lawyer games with the ArbCom. Klonimus 02:07, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Yet, I had no idea that I was a defendent in a case I made. Guy Montag 19:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
"'The Arbitrators will not hear disputes where they have not been requested to arbitrate. The Committee sees itself as a judicial body in the style of English Common Law, rather than a proactive team of independent prosecutors." [41]
Then why was I not notified that I was to be included in the arbitration. I was under the impression that only Yuber was to be a part of this case, as he submitted no evidence, and his statements were backed up by no facts, nor were they in a seperate RFA.
Interestingly enough, Ambi, examined the evidence, and found that only Yuber is worthy of arbitration. You and Grunt examined the evidence on June 5th, but did not return later to change your opinion after droves of other evidence was submitted against Yuber. Please explain. Guy Montag 19:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Why would I initiate a case, knowing that even though I submit incredible amounts of evidence against an abusive editor, I would get the same punishment as him for minor alleged infractions? Especially since they have no bearing on why I submitted to arbitrate in the first place?
I wish to remind the committee that I submitted this case because Yuber was making dozens of articles related to the Arab-Israeli conflict unbearable to edit. It became so unbearable that I took it upon myself, at the request and with the cooperation of several other editors, to compile evidence to get him banned from wikipedia, as he was ruining the spirit of cooperation we had before his arrival. I was motivated not because of his pov, but because of his non cooperative behavior, with the fact that he would revert at the slightest rewording of his pov sentences, that he couldn't cooperate with people in talk, and would arrive weeks later to revert an article improved on, to one that fit his world views. He was responsible for vandalism in Qana, where he would revert my entire article because he didn't like the title, to Queantra, where he would copy pov excepts from UN reports and virtually replace the page with them.
My editorial behavior doesn't even fall near the same catagory as Yuber, because if it did, I would have had an injunction on me too. Yet, I am defending myself because the committee has found that it is just to equate a punishment between the antithesis of a wikipedia editor, Yuber, and me, who is a specialist in his field, which happens to be Jewish Nationalism. Guy Montag 19:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Yuber did not make an official complaint, he simply made a counter statement. I always thought that the committee needed evidence to be submitted in an RFA by those who initiate a claim before they accept a case in which the defendent counter accusses (like you had any doubt that he wouldn't) those who initiated the proceedings. Yuber neither submitted any evidence, nor initiated a seperate RFA, as is the norm when two different people accuse each other. Arbitrator Ambi noted that Yuber submitted no evidence against me. Was this overlooked by the committee? Guy Montag 19:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
After all of these breaches and initiation of a proceeding that I and others see as illegitmate, the commitee has added another additition to the arbitration proceedings against me for allegedly erasing evidence. The immediate question that comes to mind, is what evidence? I am not a defendent.
I believed that the anon user was Yuber, who has an injunction against editing, and that his statements were personal attacks against me, as they are summarized outside context. Guy Montag 19:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
The comment submitted by the anon user was not evidence submitted in a findings of fact before the arbitration members, who were supposed to decide if there is a case against me before it goes to a vote. In fact, it is a case against Yuber, a case which I initiated and submitted droves of evidence to support my position. The evidence was so overwhelming against Yuber that 7 arbitration members unanimously decided to enact an injuction against him editing, and removed a 24 hour wait period, something reserved for exceptional cases.
What was his case? Where is the evidence he submitted? Why does an exceptional case that I compiled against Yuber equal in consequence against me, when I have shown that Yuber is overwhelmingly more responsible. You are giving Yuber, who was found disruptive enough to have an injuction placed on him immediately, the same punishment as you are giving me, which I find incredibly unjust. It is to this which I most object. Guy Montag 19:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
The "evidence" did not go before a finding of fact, nor was it erased in the article listed as Evidence against me, but in a talk page, where an anonymous user tried to submit false information in the middle of discussion, which I consider to be a personal attack against me.
Guy Montag 17:41, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Than allow me to put it in context. I found a page that needed factual and npov improvement. Among the actions taken was a general rewrite of the article, as I had in different articles I found lacking.
I reorganized the article and changed it to a standard used in all city articles. Among changes I made, was changing Palestinian city, to large Palestinian population, because it was my view that this would prejudge ownership before the conflict between Palestinians and Israelis was over.
But I also added, geography, demographics, and expanded the history. User Heraclius, who I suspected before and still do that he is a sockpuppet of Yuber, initiated an edit war over my rewrite, as he had in several other places for example Imam al-hams, where I rewrote the pov article. He has already mentioned many times that he does not wish to cooperate with me. After I found that Heraclius would not discuss, the page was locked by Slimvirgin. During the lockdown, I engaged in active discussion with other members to reach a consensus. And a consensus has been reached, and I uphold this consensus. In Bethlehem, I merely expanded the same rationale we used to reach consensus in Nablus and applied it to Bethlehem. Guy Montag 19:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I think that Fred Bauder's personal animus for Guy, prevents him from ajudicating this case in an impartial manner. It's clear to me that Fred disagree's with Guy's politics, and I beleive that this clouds his judgement to a material degree. Fred Bauder should therefore recuse himself.
This is evidenced by his proposals to punish and block Guy, while admiting that the case against Guy is weak and proposing Sanctions against Guy without notifiying him. Fred's interpreting Guy's use of the term "Conqured terrortories" (standard term used by the israeli goverment) as POV insertion worthy of sanction and then his later backtracking, are to me signs of insupressable bias and ignorance that prevent impartial adjudication by Fred Bauder. Fred Bauder should therefore recuse himself.
Guy has a long history of making useful and positive contributions to wikipedia. Yuber has a long history of distructive edit/revert wars on wikipedia. Whereas no one defends Yuber's egregious actions, several people (Myself and Slim Virgin) have defended Guy and made strong arguments on his behalf. While edit warring is lame, Yuber's use of anon proxies to bypass his blocks so as to continue edit warring are much worse. To draw a false moral equivalence is shameful. Fred Bauder should therefore recuse himself. Klonimus 06:09, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't think so. Guy Montag has made an open declaration of his intent to edit in a POV way. He has carried out that intent. The findings of fact show that. He has shown absolutely no intent to edit in any other way. While I have never supported the Zionist project I have never opposed it either. Other than the prejudice I harbor toward any disruptive POV editor I don't have any strong feelings about Guy Montag or his point of view. Fred Bauder 13:44, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
I made no such intent. I merely mentioned on my user page that I am here to represent Jewish nationalist thought where it is missing, misapplied or slandered, which in no way constitutes an intent to break wikipedia policy. I made my intentions public as a sign of good will toward other users. I have no reason to edit in any other way, I am professional in my field, that is Jewish nationalism, and it is my right to insert relevent information from my pov into articles as long as they conform to wikipedia policy, and they almost always do.
I am still waiting for an answer as to why Ambi, who after more evidence was presented, accepted arbitration against Yuber only, while you made a preliminary decision on June 5th and did not change it after more evidence was presented. Guy Montag 23:17, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
This is all getting very repetitive. Recently people have been adding loads of IP addresses and usernames onto the evidence page that they think are me. I guess it's somehow up to me to prove that I'm not any of those addresses. I have no idea how to do this, and even if I did, it would probably take an amount of time that I simply don't have. Slimvirgin has just suggested I should admit to being all of the people I am accused of being in order to expedite this case. I am willing to do this, since it seems the other participant in this case is just stalling for time. Can one of the arbcom members please give me an idea of what needs to happen in order to close this seemingly never-ending case and get the probation started? Yuber (talk) 01:04, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes I did make those edits. Yes I have violated injunction, been very evil, and so on. No I will not do it anymore. Is anything else needed? Yuber (talk) 01:36, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes I did make those edits. Yes I have violated injunction, been very evil, and so on. No I will not do it anymore. Is anything else needed? Yuber (talk) 01:53, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Please quit jerking us around Fred Bauder 02:18, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I assure you that no jerking of any kind is taking place here. Is the list of random IP's and users too large? If you want, you can select a few that you want me to admit to and I'd be happy to do it. Yuber (talk) 02:35, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
His attittude didn't change, but his behavior and actions progessively worsened, until it became unbearable to work with him and an arbitration hearing had to be filed. Guy Montag 18:51, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I protest bieng placed under the same restrictions as Yuber. Whatever case was for one reason or another compiled against me (under shady reasons) does not weigh heavily enough to warrant the same restrictions as they do on Yuber, who I don't believe should ever edit on wikipedia again. May I mention that it is not because of his pov, but because he is simply not a nice person and impossible to work with.
Guy Montag 03:05, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
In the section called "Use of sockpuppets by Yuber," members are voting either to oppose or to abstain from voting about the issue, but there is no support section. I'm assuming this is a mistake? SlimVirgin (talk) 06:13, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
With all due respect, but is this committee out of its gourd? I have done nothing to justify this draconian ban. Guy Montag 02:21, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
They make a fuss because there is something wrong with the committee's decision making process, and your unwillingness to answer simple questions. Why did Ambi believe that this case pertained only to Yuber when more evidence was presented, but you made a preliminary decision, and did not change it after more evidence was presented? Why am I being subjected to the same punishment as Yuber? You are only weakening the legitimacy of the committee by going through such unjust actions. Guy Montag 21:10, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Yuber is deliberately and admittedly making false statements in order to expediate his case. Above he admits to being guilty of sockpuppetry by specifically admitting to being certain user and IP accounts, while in the same admission he has contradicted these statements by suggesting that the users are actually other people. He is making a mockery of the arbitration process. In the past, he has admitted to having no concern for any rule of law on Wikipedia due to his ability to use open proxies. In a real arbitration court, lying to the court is a crime called perjury. Without punishing perjury, no tribunal, court, or arbitration process can succeed. Yuber is too dishonest for an arbitation hearing and should recieve the maximum sentence. -- Zeno of Elea 06:47, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Fred, could you say what you mean, please, by "Probation seems unworkable in this case due to solidarity with him by other editors in this area," and "How could any administrator employ [probation] when you (and your supporters) make such a fuss"? It would be helpful if you could say who the supporters are, and what kind of fuss you foresee that might make probation unworkable. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:19, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
I´m not sure where to report this (or if indeed it should be reported) but FYI: user Guy Montag is active as of today (11 Oct) on article Zionist terrorism. Regards, Huldra 12:03, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
Is there a place to appeal this decision? This the most blatant example of an unjust decision I have yet seen, and I am not saying this because I am the target of this decision, but because I ended up having a stiffer punishment placed upon me than the original target of the committee.
Guy Montag 00:02, 12 October 2005 (UTC)