Frankly, I'm surprised that a temporary de-sysopping is on the table in the first place. Given that the issue present is community confidence, I can't see how that remedy would solve anything. Either an administrator has community confidence, or he doesn't. A temporary desysopping would be a purely punitive measure. Mackensen (talk) 16:44, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Consider that we have lots of other good admins and lots more editors willing to be promoted who would do well. When a bad admin is identified, warned, and continues to unapologetically misuse those abilities, those abilities should be removed straight-away. A "re-affirmation" is just a waste of time. Obviously, he will not be re-affirmed - who are we fooling? ArbCom needs to show that they have the will to remove admin powers straight-away. Anything else makes this body unnecessary for dealing with problem admins - we could just develop a community process of re-evaluating admins. That idea fails, for whatever reasons, but largely because people want problem admins to come through ArbCom. Short version: remove his admin status directly and set a specific minimum time period during which he cannot re-apply based on the severity of his transgressions. Do this for every problem admin that reaches this stage. -- Netoholic @ 17:23, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
I believe that it's essential that admin misconduct is taken very seriously by the ArbCom because this is an issue that affects the entire community. It's nearly two months after the incident that lead to arbitration and Stevertigo begins his statement with "While I appreciate all the compliments, I dont think either of you knows much of anything about the specific case." This is almost identical to the sarcastic and dismissive response Stevertigo gave in his RfC. In this entire process, there has never been any acknowledgement of misconduct other than perhaps the unblocking was a "hasty reaction" or such. I have no reason to believe that such behavior wouldn't occur again.
In my opinion, the proper remedy would be to de-sysop Stevertigo and allow him to apply for adminship through RfA at any time. Thus, he'll regain adminship when/if the community decides that it's regained trust. Carbonite | Talk 03:03, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
The finding of fact was that Stevertigo was edit warring and got blocked for a 3RR violation. I don't think it matters whether there was an actual 3RR violation; even if there wasn't it was likely a close question (and for others to decide) Fred Bauder 17:09, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
(losing indent) Actually I'm not trying to enforce "Justice". I'm trying to make you see that your actions were wrong. I've always argued that admins are human and should be allowed to make mistakes. That is why I voted for a temp de-admining rather than throwing you to the wolves at RFA (which is what i think it would be). But the thing is - instead of making sarcastic comments, you'd really be much better off admitting that you did make a mistake, apologise for it, and look big. You do not have community support in this. The RFC has made that very clear don't you think. You need to rethink your approach. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 22:31, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Is this better? Fred Bauder 18:02, 3 October 2005 (UTC):
1) Stevertigo ( talk · contribs) while in the course of an edit war at Vietnam War ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) during which he violated the Wikipedia:Three revert rule ( Reverts are in history at August 5 and 6, see [1])
Its certianly short. - St| eve 19:28, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
I am quite disappointed to see that temporary desysopping with automatic reinstatement of powers is even being considered. This is the by far the worst case of abuse of administrative powers I've seen in my short time on Wikipedia. Under other circumstances I might favor leniency, but the chronic nature of this abuse (little things before; I remember being surpised by his protection of the mathematical constant "articles" and his lack of apology when this was pointed out) suggests that these problems are not an isolated incident. Far more worrisome, however, is the lack of contrition and the lack of understanding over why these issues are problematic. To date, I don't believe I've seen a true apology from Steve, such as that he realizes he was over the line and will not do it again. In his RfC, he suggests that the problems are with the policies and not with him ("It would seem that there are problems with certain policies and how they are enforced...") and in his statement he suggests that he only technically violated policies for more important purposes. The only process for removing adminship from someone is through an Arbitration Committee case. From time to time people propose processes for de-adminship, but in general people feel that the Arbitration Committee can handle any problematic administrators. People's standard for adminship already seems to be tightening; I know that I would be even more hesitant to support a candidate and more likely to oppose if I realize that even administrators who abuse their powers to this degree can remain administrators. It is hard to imagine a more clear-cut case: extensive abuse of administrative powers despite being warned many times by different editors, blocking out of spite (TBSDY, Mackensen), refusal to accept blame, and no indication that he will act any differently in the future. Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Stevertigo shows a very strong, united community consensus; rarely have I seen so many in agreement with no one disagreeing or suggesting that we are overreacting. The Arbitration Committee cannot have failed to notice the impressive number of editors supporting the RfC, including very many longtime and well-respected Wikipedians. If, in the face of such clear-cut evidence and such community support, the Arbitration Committee is not willing to desysop Stevertigo or at least let a community discussion decide, how can it be effective in dealing with problematic administrators? — Knowledge Seeker দ 06:13, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
When Stevertigo applies for confirmation as an administrator he can take that opportunity to apologize and explain. I probably will not vote one way or the other as I haven't followed his work closely. Those who do edit in the same areas or who have closely watched his behavior as a general matter (as opposed to one incident) can offer input regarding administrative status. We have demonstrated one incident, not a general pattern of abuse. POV editing is not a measure of general worth, in fact, I don't see much value in anyone who does not have strong points of view about vital issues. Fred Bauder 21:58, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
WP:RFAR/SV#FoF>3RR is incorrect when it states that 3RR was "correctly applied." The block of CJK by Michael Snow was 24 hours after Geni's block on me. - St| eve 19:06, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
"reaffirmed" is misused here; does not agree with the text. Wbfl 05:14, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
From the first new proposed remedy:
Why not simply 'at any time'? Or if the ArbCom wants things to "cool off", specify a particular interval. Intent isn't 100% clear here, and could be 'cast up about' in any subsequent RfA. ("This isn't 'later' enough", etc.) All moot if you don't pass it, of course. Alai 05:04, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
He can reapply the day the ac case closes as far as I am concerned. The "later" meant any time after that. I'll change the wording to your version. Thanks. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 14:30, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
There appear to be two ways of reading this. 1 the person is liekly to lose thier adminship if there is a serious problem. If that is the case all admins should automaticaly be on probabtion. 2 the person is more likely to be a problem and needs watching I don't want to be in a position where there is a formal reason for me not to trust my fellow admins. Geni 16:35, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Stevertigo is not where he is (a cliff) because of "the actions of one night"; he denied and continues to deny that what he did was an abomination. that is why he's where he is, and that's obvious when reading the history of this joke with the following question foremost in mind: is Stevertigo fit to wield admin power at wikipedia? of course not. read his pounds of reactions to this. this process has stalled because of the asinine premise that being an admin is a birthright. "no big deal" to elevate somebody to admin power? then it shouldn't be a big deal to zap 'em when they demonstrate the remarkable lack of respect/awareness Stevertigo did/does, even when he was passed wake-up clues under the table by his admin cronies. the evidence essentially guarantees that he will misfire in the same way again. this whole process is club members worrying about their precious futures in a world where admins are clobbered over the head for naturally acquired, intrinsic nasty behavior (e.g., threats, big talk, database button-pushing, atty-tude). clobber him and be done with it. may the rest of you follow. this joint needs admin term limits, not hand wringing and policy stabbing at the beheading of an obviously loutish admincentric. edit counts! wooohoooo! that's what you get. spectacle. Wbfl 10:37, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Is this case closed now? There are six votes to close (no oppose votes), with the first vote made over two days ago. Didn't know whether it's just lag time or if something was still being discussed privately. Carbonite | Talk 13:07, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Frankly, I'm surprised that a temporary de-sysopping is on the table in the first place. Given that the issue present is community confidence, I can't see how that remedy would solve anything. Either an administrator has community confidence, or he doesn't. A temporary desysopping would be a purely punitive measure. Mackensen (talk) 16:44, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Consider that we have lots of other good admins and lots more editors willing to be promoted who would do well. When a bad admin is identified, warned, and continues to unapologetically misuse those abilities, those abilities should be removed straight-away. A "re-affirmation" is just a waste of time. Obviously, he will not be re-affirmed - who are we fooling? ArbCom needs to show that they have the will to remove admin powers straight-away. Anything else makes this body unnecessary for dealing with problem admins - we could just develop a community process of re-evaluating admins. That idea fails, for whatever reasons, but largely because people want problem admins to come through ArbCom. Short version: remove his admin status directly and set a specific minimum time period during which he cannot re-apply based on the severity of his transgressions. Do this for every problem admin that reaches this stage. -- Netoholic @ 17:23, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
I believe that it's essential that admin misconduct is taken very seriously by the ArbCom because this is an issue that affects the entire community. It's nearly two months after the incident that lead to arbitration and Stevertigo begins his statement with "While I appreciate all the compliments, I dont think either of you knows much of anything about the specific case." This is almost identical to the sarcastic and dismissive response Stevertigo gave in his RfC. In this entire process, there has never been any acknowledgement of misconduct other than perhaps the unblocking was a "hasty reaction" or such. I have no reason to believe that such behavior wouldn't occur again.
In my opinion, the proper remedy would be to de-sysop Stevertigo and allow him to apply for adminship through RfA at any time. Thus, he'll regain adminship when/if the community decides that it's regained trust. Carbonite | Talk 03:03, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
The finding of fact was that Stevertigo was edit warring and got blocked for a 3RR violation. I don't think it matters whether there was an actual 3RR violation; even if there wasn't it was likely a close question (and for others to decide) Fred Bauder 17:09, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
(losing indent) Actually I'm not trying to enforce "Justice". I'm trying to make you see that your actions were wrong. I've always argued that admins are human and should be allowed to make mistakes. That is why I voted for a temp de-admining rather than throwing you to the wolves at RFA (which is what i think it would be). But the thing is - instead of making sarcastic comments, you'd really be much better off admitting that you did make a mistake, apologise for it, and look big. You do not have community support in this. The RFC has made that very clear don't you think. You need to rethink your approach. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 22:31, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Is this better? Fred Bauder 18:02, 3 October 2005 (UTC):
1) Stevertigo ( talk · contribs) while in the course of an edit war at Vietnam War ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) during which he violated the Wikipedia:Three revert rule ( Reverts are in history at August 5 and 6, see [1])
Its certianly short. - St| eve 19:28, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
I am quite disappointed to see that temporary desysopping with automatic reinstatement of powers is even being considered. This is the by far the worst case of abuse of administrative powers I've seen in my short time on Wikipedia. Under other circumstances I might favor leniency, but the chronic nature of this abuse (little things before; I remember being surpised by his protection of the mathematical constant "articles" and his lack of apology when this was pointed out) suggests that these problems are not an isolated incident. Far more worrisome, however, is the lack of contrition and the lack of understanding over why these issues are problematic. To date, I don't believe I've seen a true apology from Steve, such as that he realizes he was over the line and will not do it again. In his RfC, he suggests that the problems are with the policies and not with him ("It would seem that there are problems with certain policies and how they are enforced...") and in his statement he suggests that he only technically violated policies for more important purposes. The only process for removing adminship from someone is through an Arbitration Committee case. From time to time people propose processes for de-adminship, but in general people feel that the Arbitration Committee can handle any problematic administrators. People's standard for adminship already seems to be tightening; I know that I would be even more hesitant to support a candidate and more likely to oppose if I realize that even administrators who abuse their powers to this degree can remain administrators. It is hard to imagine a more clear-cut case: extensive abuse of administrative powers despite being warned many times by different editors, blocking out of spite (TBSDY, Mackensen), refusal to accept blame, and no indication that he will act any differently in the future. Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Stevertigo shows a very strong, united community consensus; rarely have I seen so many in agreement with no one disagreeing or suggesting that we are overreacting. The Arbitration Committee cannot have failed to notice the impressive number of editors supporting the RfC, including very many longtime and well-respected Wikipedians. If, in the face of such clear-cut evidence and such community support, the Arbitration Committee is not willing to desysop Stevertigo or at least let a community discussion decide, how can it be effective in dealing with problematic administrators? — Knowledge Seeker দ 06:13, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
When Stevertigo applies for confirmation as an administrator he can take that opportunity to apologize and explain. I probably will not vote one way or the other as I haven't followed his work closely. Those who do edit in the same areas or who have closely watched his behavior as a general matter (as opposed to one incident) can offer input regarding administrative status. We have demonstrated one incident, not a general pattern of abuse. POV editing is not a measure of general worth, in fact, I don't see much value in anyone who does not have strong points of view about vital issues. Fred Bauder 21:58, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
WP:RFAR/SV#FoF>3RR is incorrect when it states that 3RR was "correctly applied." The block of CJK by Michael Snow was 24 hours after Geni's block on me. - St| eve 19:06, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
"reaffirmed" is misused here; does not agree with the text. Wbfl 05:14, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
From the first new proposed remedy:
Why not simply 'at any time'? Or if the ArbCom wants things to "cool off", specify a particular interval. Intent isn't 100% clear here, and could be 'cast up about' in any subsequent RfA. ("This isn't 'later' enough", etc.) All moot if you don't pass it, of course. Alai 05:04, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
He can reapply the day the ac case closes as far as I am concerned. The "later" meant any time after that. I'll change the wording to your version. Thanks. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 14:30, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
There appear to be two ways of reading this. 1 the person is liekly to lose thier adminship if there is a serious problem. If that is the case all admins should automaticaly be on probabtion. 2 the person is more likely to be a problem and needs watching I don't want to be in a position where there is a formal reason for me not to trust my fellow admins. Geni 16:35, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Stevertigo is not where he is (a cliff) because of "the actions of one night"; he denied and continues to deny that what he did was an abomination. that is why he's where he is, and that's obvious when reading the history of this joke with the following question foremost in mind: is Stevertigo fit to wield admin power at wikipedia? of course not. read his pounds of reactions to this. this process has stalled because of the asinine premise that being an admin is a birthright. "no big deal" to elevate somebody to admin power? then it shouldn't be a big deal to zap 'em when they demonstrate the remarkable lack of respect/awareness Stevertigo did/does, even when he was passed wake-up clues under the table by his admin cronies. the evidence essentially guarantees that he will misfire in the same way again. this whole process is club members worrying about their precious futures in a world where admins are clobbered over the head for naturally acquired, intrinsic nasty behavior (e.g., threats, big talk, database button-pushing, atty-tude). clobber him and be done with it. may the rest of you follow. this joint needs admin term limits, not hand wringing and policy stabbing at the beheading of an obviously loutish admincentric. edit counts! wooohoooo! that's what you get. spectacle. Wbfl 10:37, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Is this case closed now? There are six votes to close (no oppose votes), with the first vote made over two days ago. Didn't know whether it's just lag time or if something was still being discussed privately. Carbonite | Talk 13:07, 17 November 2005 (UTC)