This ArbCom turned out to the most damaging act ever done by a WP group. Damaging for the Wikipedia project, because lies were first allowed, then pushed and forwarded, and finally cemented in a bogus "decision" to ban a whole group of people based solely on their religious beliefs. So, who's next? Shutterbug ( talk) 04:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
I witnessed this blossoming dispute, and feel that arbitration is inevitable. Better to hear the matter now before disruption becomes more widespread. The threads at WP:AE look like miniature arbitration cases. That board is ill-suited to dealing with such complexity. Jehochman Talk 18:45, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
I was reading this on WP:AE yesterday and felt the best outcome was to close it as "interesting, but sparse on anything actionable." The outstanding SSP and CU requests need to be completed, and the content problems need to go back to their respective talk pages.
The content dispute has been blown way out of proportion. For context, the majority of the concerns on WP:AE are regarding " Scientology and sex", a sub-article that focuses on one aspect of Scientology, and that article recently sent to AFD by user:Justallofthem; it was closed as "keep" on November 30 (basicly a WP:SNOW). In this light, adding reported issues about sex is to be expected, and it should be expected that it will go into controversies that have arisen over time. Those who prefer that we didnt have an article about this topic are going to need to accept the community disagrees strongly. Obviously the article needs to comply with all our policies, and some of Cirts additions are questionable, but the new material was removed, and has not been restored. It is a content dispute, and a minor one at that. If the two sides are unable to find compromise, they should request a WP:3O on specific issues, file a RFC or seek mediation (When I read the AE board last night, I thought Durova had offered mediation??).
fwiw, after reading the AE thread, I started to get involved to help restore stability. [1] [2]
If there are wider issues to do with the actions of user:Cirt, a credible description of the problem needs to be compiled and taken to WP:RFC/U because there is nothing provided here now, nor was there any provided at WP:AE. John Vandenberg ( chat) 00:10, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
I will openly admit that Scientology may have originally drawn me to Wikipedia as a motivation to edit; in parsing the main article I found many things that I took issue with from an editorial standpoint. That being said, I am moving into some other areas of interest as well. So I ask anyone that believes that my account to be single-purposed to consider my contributions outside of Scientology-related pages.
As being discussed by the editors working on the page at the time I first arrived, one significant problem with the Scientology page was its prominent use of primary sources. So being a fairly compulsive editor, I systematically rearranged the page in an intuitive attempt to improve it, removing secondary sources along the way. The quality of Scientology-related pages for the most part seems to have been compromised with the use of primary sources, which was an issue that I was working on (and still do, on a more limited basis). It must be noted, however, that promoting the use of secondary sources in the place of primary ones does not constitute a violation of WP:NPOV or WP:RS; quite to the contrary.
Now judging by the amount of effort that all of the involved editors put into WP:SCN, it sometimes becomes aggravating and counter-productive to deal with the unreasonable opposition we encounter. What we are dealing with here is not a persecution of editors due to their faith, but a situation where all available evidence suggests that individual editors closely connected with the Church of Scientology are attempting to cast it in a positive light. This is no different than employees of Microsoft editing the Windows Vista article.
As for the arbitration and eventual resolution of this matter, I ask that Arbitrators consider any prior evidence in addition to the actions taken by the parties in question which proceeded the original Arbitration ruling. Two particular edits are of interest: one from Dec 9, 2008 by 205.227.165.151 ( talk) and the other occurring on May 9, 2007 by 205.227.165.244 ( talk) (resolves to ws.churchofscientology.org). Both IPs are within the same class C range, which is owned by the Church of Scientology International. Historically, four more known Scientology-owned IPs performed edits almost entirely limited to Scientology-related pages, see 205.227.165.14 ( talk • whois), 205.227.165.11 ( talk • whois), 63.199.209.133 ( talk • whois), and 63.199.209.131 ( talk • whois). During January 2008, Misou (a confirmed sockpuppet on Wikipedia) was found by a checkuser on Wikinews to be using open proxies as well as IPs controlled by the Church of Scientology (Misou was subsequently banned). As recently as Oct 21, 2008, Shutterbug was banned from Wikinews for "disruptive behavior" and "Block evasion via proxies".
To conclude, I'd like to quote here a few points which were first illustrated by myself in the WP:AE thread: "Let the records show that it was found that there was indeed overlapping ip address usage belonging to a specific group of editors appearing to have a conflict of interest, who acted towards pushing a particular pov. Since those findings were announced, the pov-pushing ( 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10), assumption of bad faith, ( 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18), and removal of reliable sources ( 19, 20, 21) has continued."
To echo what GoodDamon ( talk · contribs) said, SPA accounts are never truly an issue unless a COI is apparent. I make every effort possible to present my changes in a neutral way. If you believe that I am not doing so, please show me diffs which you believe to be indicative of a bias. Also, the claim that I reverted any of your edits on Dianetics is false. Furthermore, you falsely claimed that the source you removed was previously added by me, which I refuted on the talk page. ← Spidern → 06:53, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps I'm jumping the gun a little with presenting the evidence, it was intended to illustrate that arbitration action is clearly needed here. But I would also argue that the Misou case on Wikinews is every bit as relevant here, considering that we're dealing with the behavior of a user named as a party in this RFAR. ← Spidern → 18:06, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
What I have seen here are reports of sock puppetry, of role accounts, of biased editing, and of people yelling at each other because "the other guy" is wrong. Which is to be expected, as the subject at hand makes a perfect drama sandwich. I like my sandwiches to have fresh mozzarella.
This is a matter of editors being able to control themselves in the name of academia. I am not blaming anyone for being non-neutral, nor for being uncivil. Both things are perfectly human, but that does not make incivility and biased editing appropriate behavior for Wikipedia. That is what makes Wikipedia editing so hard. Those who have been accused/convicted of biased editing should admit to their faults and work extra hard to write in the "they're an organization that has done stuff" style; even those who think they are perfectly neutral should work extra-hard anyway, only because this is such a heated subject. I know I probably couldn't write neutrally on the matter of Scientology if I tried.
Which is what makes civil, cooperative behavior so important. Those who have seen me on IRC know that I put my feet in my mouth on a frequent occasion. That makes me an anti-example on how editors should behave while disputing encyclopedia content. (To be fair, I try to be on my best behavior when making a case for something on Wikipedia). I am calling on involved editors to take it seriously, but not personally, when accused of non-neutral editing. If you have reacted poorly in the past, try in the present now to keep your anger from Wikipedia. Punch the wall if you have to. All editors must work cooperatively for the wellness of the article, even if they disagree. This is something I take very seriously, and the ArbCom should move towards restoring an editing environment conducive to scholarly collaboration.
Inevitably, people are not going to try, and they will continue down a path of arrogance and non-cooperation. Those people should be removed from editing, whether from Scientology topics or Wikipedia as a whole. It will be painful, but Wikipedia benefits not from people who sour the environment of academia.
May I also note that the resolutions from the COFS case are pretty weak. "Anynobody prohibited from harassing Justanother"? No kidding!
-- harej 03:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
I urge the ArbCom to take this case. It appears to be a residue from the COFS case last year. It shows the problem with using article probation as a remedy. The ArbCom gets complex cases with extensive evidence and spends weeks to months considering the factors. Then, instead of bringing the matter to a final resolution, it tosses them back to the community. Rather than a decision by a small, cohesive committee, a probation remedy turns the unresolved disputes over to the relatively chaotic WP:AE. There, admins have a few days or a week to look at relatively little evidence and make the difficult decisions that the ArbCom didn't make when it had the chance. A recent, messy case involving civility parole is another example of what happens when problems aren't solved and are allowed to smolder along.
In this case, the unresolved issue is how to deal with single purpose, POV pushing accounts, some of which may be acting in concert. The community has made efforts to deal with the issue with proposals like Wikipedia:Tag team and Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing. Now is a good time to find how these solutions can be brought to bear on the actual problems this project faces. Please, take the case and resolve it so it doesn't keep popping up again and again. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:20, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
OK, I've just been added (after three weeks) as an "added party of interest". What does that actually mean, precisely? Do I need to monitor these pages for changes mentioning me? Is there a handy guide to where in the thousands of kilobytes of subpages the bits about me will actually be?
Suggestion: you give added "parties of interest" more of a pointer on their talk page as to what the "interest" actually is - David Gerard ( talk) 23:00, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Much as I like Captain Louis Renault, it's hardly appropriate here. It came to my attention only very recently that many of the people listed as "Internet activists" on {{ Scientology and the Internet}} are actively editing Scientology articles. More generally, I have been unable to find any correspondence from ArbCom in the archives promising people with unresolvable conflicts of interest amnesty or immunity. Roger Davies talk 01:25, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
(od) Whatever the original tactic was, it hasn't worked. Despite four arbitrations in four years, the topic is a battlefield and is likely to remain forever one unless drastic steps (with or without headbumping) are taken. Clearly, we need to deal effectively with Scientologists who come here to push their POV but we need equally to rein in the critics/sceptics who are actively promoting an opposing stance. The two factions feed off each other, prolong the agony, and foster further factionalism. The overall objective here is not to create a broadly hostile landscape, were sources or synthesis or original research is either accepted or rejected depending on the POV it supports, but one where this controversial subject can be treated neutrally and dispassionately. That is what Wikipedia policy is all about. Roger Davies talk 10:28, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
I posted the following statement on the main page before noticing this discussion here. I'm not sure where it's more appropriate. After reading David's comments above, I have to agree it looks kind of weird to add a whole bunch of people this late in the case. (Not that I know very much about arbitration, just that it sounds like
scope creep.)
Looking over the sub-pages, the only mention of me I can find is one from *2005* where I pointed out some apparent sock-puppeting at the time between IP address editors. Just what am I supposed to be looking at? -- FOo ( talk) 08:39, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Looks like a large number of contributors were added to this never-ending case just last week, including me. I'm not entirely sure if that's necessary. I don't consider myself a major contributor to the Scientology-related articles, though it's a topic I visit from time to time. I've stayed far away from edit-warring with the Church's sock puppets, but I guess I'm supposed to say something here anyhow.
I don't have a lot to contribute here, though: having looked over the various materials brought up in this case, it seems to me that the conduct of the sock crew is so blatant, and its continuity with Scientology's history of trying to shut down honest reporting about itself is so evident, that anyone who seriously considers the situation will come to a reasonable conclusion. -- FOo ( talk) 03:51, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
There is no indication on the main page whether this particular RFA first passed through any mediation process (with links if so) or due to the reoccurring nature of the problem, passed straight to arbitration. It should be there so that interested parties can examine the process leading up to this. AndroidCat ( talk) 02:58, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
link Grundle2600 ( talk) 00:44, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
I spent a lot of time in the scientology article, I made attempts to include information from primary sources although unknowingly, yet I am not faceing a ban. I want to talk about why this is. When somebody tells you that what you are doing is wrong or in some way un befitting of the place in which you are doing it, its probably a good idea to listen to them. There was a lot of Scientology controlled or operated accounts used to alter, remove, distort or otherwise censore information about itself particularly information that is controversial. The removal of secondary sources in an effort to get an entire range of information invalidated is wrong. The abuse or intentional manipulation of the rules and regulations in order to further a personal or be it organization enforced goal is also wrong is unethical. I am confounded by the amount of people found guilty in this arbitration who have made comments to the effect of “what did I do wrong” or “this is discrimination/Religious hate/Intolerance/etc”. I am not sure if I fully agree with what Wikipedia has done but I can say I support it because I am unable to find any failure of logic or weakness of application of said logic anywhere in the arbitrations decision. I find flaws in everything, being autistic I use that to my advantage but I can not see anything wrong with banning scientology from the topic or even related topics. It would be no different if [Insert Group Name Here] started vandalizing its own and related thread all from the same set of ips belonging to it. The irony here is that scientology prides itself on being comprised of the most ethical people on the planet. What is ethical about defacing articles? The spokespersons of scientology are making the claim that this was done due to there being horribly inaccurate information on the page. Still today anybody that puts up a video on youtube or posts on a forum mentioning lord xenu, hubbard’s more outlandish lectures or anything about the slave camps they get a S&D letter from moxon or some other legal person on behalf of the “church”. Is there not a stark similarity Scientology attempting to censor or deface content about itself posted outside the boundries of a verified and sourced document and the actions of the church inside such boundries? I do not think that by function of how scientology thinks that they will ever be capable of following the rules here. I also urge that websites and organization in a ilk situation of this at Wikipedia should consider putting restrictions on scientology and its access to said site. Aaron Bongart ( talk) 14:20, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Could it be possible that it has something to do with the filter software all parishioners have to use? It could work as a proxy, sending information to the servers, allowing them to check whether material accessed is appropriate or inappropriate. It seems more likely than astroturfing to me. 92.0.138.3 ( talk) 15:11, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
I was topic banned in the recent second Scientology arbitration case, for stuff I did months before the first Scientology arbitration case which occurred in summer 2008.
There is something fundamentally wrong with banning me from this topic since not only was this "evidence" ignored in the first case but I also haven't violated the terms given from that case.
Accordingly, I'm uncertain what, exactly, this request is asking for. Put simply I'd like to continue editing any article I please. Banning someone from editing a topic should be a last resort, and since the arbcom didn't say I was pushing a POV in the first case I'd argue that we haven't quite reached the last resort. (If the arbcom ruled I was pushing a POV, and I continued to do the same thing, a ban would make sense. That isn't the case here.)
I totally understand that at first glance it might seem I had been ...been consistently pushing a specific point of view... Honestly though, the only POV I'm "pushing" is what's in the sources - every edit I made was as a result of what our best sources say. (Secondary sources like Time magazine and the LA Times, as well as primary sources like the US Navy.) The fact is these sources are unpopular with Scientologists and it took a great deal of time and effort to maintain them in most Scientology articles. You aren't saying I should just let editors with a positive view of Scientology remove info this easily sourced?
As regards mentioning my "harassment" of Justanother the point I am trying to make is that I disagree with the arbcom's first ruling which was affirmed in this case. Since he was banned by this arbcom for the same behavior I was trying to call attention to it is especially irritating that the same committee would affirm my attempts to solve this problem SOONER was harassment. Anynobody( ?) 01:34, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Gentlemen I've ALWAYS used ALL information from what we consider reliable sources. Articles about Scientology feature in depth coverage of its negative aspects. Are you saying we should ignore the bulk of what the sources say about a topic because some people don't like what it has to say? (For example a Time article called The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power obviously is going to say things Scientologists don't like, and might just make anyone citing it look anti-Scientology.)
If not, would you please explain how someone could use info like Time's, the LA Times, Wall Street Journal, or any of the other dozen or so reliable and non-biased sources without appearing to support the points in them? Anynobody( ?) 02:00, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that some of the editors banned, on both sides, haven't edited for quite some time. For example CSI LA last edited in 2007 and the same goes for Orsini Why are these two being topic banned after having escaped scrutiny (or even participation) in the first arbcom case AND not made an edit since 2007?
None of the graphics I made are meant to disparage anyone or anything and directly reflect the available sources. The image of DC-8s arriving on Earth for Xenu was meant to replace an already made illustration created by modifying a photo of NASA's DC-8 in space with the word Xenu on its tail.
Lastly, this arbitration reaffirmed that I previously harassed Justanother. I submit that the whole allegation if harassing Justanother (aka Justallofthem) stems from my attempt to get a WP:RFC/U going regarding his behavior. After the last arbitration I've not had any real contact with him, and he's been banned for the same type of behavior I was trying to call attention to in the first place. WP:HA#What harassment is not says A user warning for disruption or incivility is not harassment if the claims are presented civilly, made in good faith and attempt to resolve a dispute instead of escalating one. I've never called for him to be banned or demanded punishment, all I asked for was a RFC when it appeared he was having similar problems with several editors through giving the community an opportunity to comment. Anynobody( ?) 02:25, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Anynobody, this a cumulative decision based on all your "bad deeds". I am curious to see how the article develops without us. Let the clueless rule! Shutterbug ( talk) 01:22, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Either there's more to the case against Anynobody or there isn't. From only what's posted within the case pages, which isn't much, I don't know.
I looked at each "POV" diff (two) and each "disparaging" graphic (five). The diffs are fairly ordinary-looking edits, and would seem to be POV only if not reliably sourceable. The graphics are documentation of a type permitted as original research or describable primary sources. Two of the graphics would seem to be disparaging (by the editor) only if they weren't based on reliable sources. I don't know if they were or weren't based on reliable sources in the details, but in the current article, the LA Times seems to back the core issue that Anynobody was editing.
If these edits were based on reliable sources, then Anynobody must have done something notable within the article talk pages that merited the "POV" and "disparaging" charges. Did he? I don't know.
The fact-finding mentioned that prior arbitration determined that Anynobody harassed Justanother. I looked at that case, and it determined that Anynobody "complained to and of Justanother with great frequency and persistence". Well, now that Justa* has been banned from the entire project, one might reasonably conclude that Justa* was a frequent and persistent problem under the radar. In any case, with Justa* gone, a remedy against Anynobody inclusive of that reason lacks a preventive purpose, so I suggest tagging it with a note of 'No longer relevant to a preventative remedy since Justa(names) has been site banned by another remedy of this case'.
My tentative conclusion is that there is either no substantive case against Anynobody, or it's a case that's been presented with insufficient specificity. If there is no substantive case, the topic ban and restriction should be rescinded. If there is a substantive case, please present it so Anynobody can either defend his actions, or avoid doing again whatever he supposedly did that was so bad it deserved a topic ban. Milo 01:43, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
I haven't logged into my Wikipedia account in quite a while, so I was not aware that I had been dragged into Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Scientology until a friend told me today that I'd been topic banned. I wish to protest this ban as unjustified.
A look at my edit history shows that I have not edited any Scientology-related article since 2007. (Been busy doing other things.) I contributed a few typo/grammar fixes in 2008, but none of those articles were about Scientology. It is unreasonable to topic ban me in 2009 when I've never received any kind of reprimand or caution about any edits I've made, and have done nothing wrong, even when I was editing Scientology articles back in 2007.
Second, the ruling criticizes me for editing the article on Applied Scholastics and for including a link to my StudyTech.org web site. The StudyTech.org web site is the primary reference for anyone who wants a critical look at the subject. That is why the current Applied Scholastics article, which I have not touched since 2007, continues to link to StudyTech.org; any article that did not link to this resource would be incomplete. I don't think it's Wikpedia policy that only non-experts can edit an article. And I contest the claim that my edits are self-interested. People write about what they know. Being a Scientology critic shouldn't prohibit me from editing Scientology-related articles any more than being a Scientologist would.
Being topic banned is humiliating and, in my case, unjustified. I'd like to request that this ban be rescinded.
Comment: Reading the appeal of Touretzky I find that he did not get it. His personal websites are not an authoritative source for anything but his own state of mind and him pushing them into Wikipedia articles is exactly what he was topic-banned for. Shutterbug ( talk) 01:24, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Response to DT: Dave, read up on Wikipedia policy, will you? Quiz: Copies of secondary sources hosted on private attack websites. Allowed per WP:RS or not? Shutterbug ( talk) 06:38, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps this motion should be expanded to include other editors who had not edited the topic for a very long time before the case began. Intending this equally toward both 'sides': it's about principle, not ideology. Wikipedia remedies are supposed to be preventative rather than punitive. It is unlikely that any sanctions proposal against an editor who hadn't touched a topic since 2007 would have passed--or even been taken seriously--if similar proposals had gone up at AN or ANI. That applies generally, not simply to long term disputes.
When you go for the nuclear option, you may get Chernobyl. Indiscriminate and/or punitive sanctions could make the topic radioactive. Looking ahead, I worry about the long term impact upon this topic if the uninvolved Wikipedians whose assistance the Committee seeks to encourage become fearful to make the attempt. Durova Charge! 02:42, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Moved comments from other sections to new single section. KnightLago ( talk) 02:33, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Comment: I've read the arbitration decision and User:Touretzky's appeal. Given the evidence that Touretzky presents, it seems reasonable to reconsider the topic ban on this editor. If there were activity in the past year in support of this ban, or examples of egregiously disruptive behavior, I would think otherwise, but I fail to see such evidence. -- Zippy ( talk) 19:27, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
This is also what I am thinking. Let's say we're dealing with a user who makes edits in good faith, whether they get the ethos of the Wikipedia or not. This is pretty common, and the normal action is to guide the user, warn them if the behavior continues, and block as a last resort, but even then, block only for a short amount of time (a day, a week).
In this case, we have a user, Touretzky, who made edits that the arbitration committee has decided are not in keeping with the rules and guidelines of Wikipedia. The edits were over a year ago, and Touretzky says he received no warning at the time, yet did not create any more events deemed worthy of arbitration attention or warning or sanction.
Whether the user gets it or not is missing the point. I believe that bringing down the ban-hammer on a user as step one, or even step n, is premature if they a) have not received guidance from the community at the time the edit occurred, and b) have not continued to make edits that go against the rules and guidelines of Wikipedia.
In this case, Touretzky is engaged in a dialog with the greater Wikipedia community, something that can be achieved with less than a topic ban. I would rather that we assume good faith and allow this user to be free of the mark of sanction so long as his present behavior is within the norms of so many other editors who have yet to fully grok Wikipedia. By topic banning, I believe we are more likely to lose an editor than we are to bring them up to speed. -- Zippy ( talk) 03:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
No doubt this topic is a particularly polarizing one, I think everyone would agree with that. My question is more about the right way to bring users into the fold. For a user's first experience with official guidance to be not a warning, but a topic ban, seems heavy-handed considering the actions by the user occurred in 2007. As the user has not in recent memory been engaged in any behavior worth objection, and has made constructive edits on other topics in the meantime, why not talk to the user rather than sanction them?
While I accept that your intent with a topic ban is to rehabilitate the user, I suspect that in many cases, if a user were faced with a topic ban as the first action against them, we would be unlikely to see that user return. And so I would like us to assume good faith here, not in a wikilawyerly way, but as a reasonable path, considering the user has not done anything that anyone has objected to for over a year. -- Zippy ( talk) 21:02, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
With all respect to the difficulty the arbitration committee faces with the edits on the topic of Scientology, Touretzky engaged in no objectionable edits for one and a half years prior to the arbitration committee's decision. Why ask for more evidence of good behavior when you have at least 18 months of it? -- Zippy ( talk) 21:27, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
User:Shutterbug is a named party in the arbitration committee's decision. -- Zippy ( talk) 18:32, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
The object of the decision is to require single-purpose editors on Scientology topics, or on Scientology aspects of other topics (such as [6] to demonstrate a commitment to Wikipedia's model of cooperative editing by editing other topics for a while; the ban may be appealed after 6 months. Regarding studytech.org, it is not a reliable source as such. Where it contains newspaper articles and other reliable content, the appropriate practice is to cite the original source, even if it is not online and can not be made an active link. There are several reasons for this, primarily a) a site hosting a copy of someone else's copyrighted news article may be infringing on the original copyright and Wikipedia frowns on contributory infringement, and b) there is a risk that partisan archives may not be completely accurate. For more information see the "Convenience links" section of Wikipedia:Citing_sources. Thatcher 12:19, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
"... Lest there be any doubt, there are the editors who, over the years, have got the topic into the toxic mess it is today. There is no evidence whatsoever that the passage of time has changed the deeply held beliefs of the topic-banned editors nor influenced their ability to behave correctly. If any have moved on from Scientology, a Scientology topic ban will not hurt them. If they have not moved on, six months pottering around Wikipedia learning how policy works in other less-contentious areas will do them no harm. There is no element of punishment in any of the topic-bans; they are preventative and rehabilitive." Roger Davies, at [7]
I am afraid that these assertions from Roger Davies cause me to wonder anew just how well Roger, and the other members of the Arbitration Committee, actually understand the effects of the decision they have handed down. The statement that the topic-bans are "preventative and rehabilitive," and that "there is no element of punishment in any of the topic-bans," is so startling that I can only think that Roger has in mind only what the intent behind the topic-bans was, and has perhaps not realized that the effect of the ArbCom's punishment is substantially different from what it might have envisioned or intended.
The ArbCom may choose to believe that it is not bound by the precedents of previous cases, but it cannot ignore those precedents. With that in mind, let's look at a case from the past, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Terryeo. It does not take much examination of the evidence to get a sense of Terryeo; I actually suspect that a reader can get a fairly strong sense from just one section of the evidence, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Terryeo/Evidence#Evidence presented by Antaeus Feldspar, showing just one point on which Terryeo argued endlessly and tendentiously, accusing other editors of inserting opinion and original research, accusing other editors of lying, removing citations with false claims about the contents of the cited sources, and inserting his own opinion and original research (yes, after loudly demonizing others for allegedly doing so.) So what is my point in bringing up the case of Terryeo? Simply this: That arbitration case was called to deal with just one problem user, and after all the evidence (about 120 diffs by my count) presented to show that user's problem behavior on Scientology and Dianetics related pages, the ArbCom chose the following remedy: "Terryeo is banned indefinitely from articles which relate to Dianetics or Scientology. He may make appropriate comments on talk pages." (emphasis added.)
By sentencing current editors to a complete topic ban, specifically stated to exclude talk pages, the current Arbitration Committee is making the clear statement, whether it is intentional or not: all these editors are greater offenders than Terryeo. They must be, or else it would not be necessary to sentence them more harshly than Terryeo, based on less evidence.
Perhaps in a world where "what happens on Wikipedia, stays on Wikipedia," it might be true that painting these editors as offenders so severe that the ArbCom must use topic-banning as a first resort rather than last has "no element of punishment". Perhaps in a world where reputation has no effect whatsoever, or a world without Google, this drastic depiction "will not hurt them." Not in this world, however. It was not that long ago that I was on a lunch date with a lovely young lady that I had been recently introduced to, and she started the conversation, to my shock, with her observations on my past difficulties at the hands of Zordrac ( talk · contribs). I was fortunate that she was able to recognize Zordrac (a.k.a. Internodeuser) as possessed of neither honesty or good judgment -- but could I have expected her to recognize that the Arbitration Committee, when it chose the drastic remedy of topic-banning, was simply trying to find a "rehabilitive" remedy? Could I have expected her, frankly, to believe such a claim, when I myself find it hard to credit? Could I expect a prospective employer, Googling me, to believe that the Arbitration Committee thought its topic-ban on me was purely "preventative"? I do not think anyone looking at my contributions, noting the complete absence of any article edits from the end of June 2007 right up to the current day, would believe that the ArbCom applied a "preventative" remedy, because quite obviously there was no reason to think there was anything to prevent.
"There is no evidence whatsoever that the passage of time has changed the deeply held beliefs of the topic-banned editors nor influenced their ability to behave correctly" -- I think that it might be said, quite gently, that it is not the place of the Arbitration Committee to change the deeply held beliefs of any editor, whether those beliefs be Scientology or science. Nor is it rational for any member of the ArbCom to expect editors to change their deeply held beliefs to suit the pleasures of the Arbitration Committee. Editor behavior is the jurisdiction of the Arbitration Committee. If the Arbitration Committee wishes to influence editor behavior in a positive direction, however, I cannot think that relying purely on "the passage of time" to "influence their ability to behave correctly" is an advisable course of action. Neither is employing as a first resort, for editors made aware for the first time that their behavior is of concern to the ArbCom, remedies more severe than those used as a last resort against editors with long and blatant histories. -- Antaeus Feldspar ( talk) 01:09, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
"I'm puzzled by the claim that these topic bans are punitive." Generally speaking, sanctions have one of three rationales: punitive, preventative, or rehabilitative.
With reference to any one of the multiple editors who had been completely inactive on the topic of Scientology -- or completely inactive, period -- for over a year prior to the start of the case, it really is very hard to see what sort of imminent disruption the ArbCom might have believed that they were "preventing". Did they really believe that Touretzky's complete inactivity from 27 September 2008 onward was just the prelude to some sort of disruptive return, which had to be prevented with the immediately brute-force remedy of a topic-ban?
It is even harder for any reasonable person to believe that the topic bans would have a "rehabilitative" effect. No one who has a choice chooses to "rehabilitate" unless they are given some reason to believe that there is a better place which can be theirs at the end of the process. The Arbitration Committee gave no such reason. On the contrary, by interpreting editors' records in the worst possible light (for instance, jumping to the conclusion that a large number of Scientology edits is automatically a history of POV warring, and that the only deleted contributions worth considering in an editor's record must have been to BLPs [8]), by labelling them as an imminent threat that could only be dealt with by a brute-force remedy that skipped all the "other avenues" that it is expected will be tried first, the Arbitration Committee gave all those editors reason to believe that if they stayed (or, in many cases, returned) they would be devalued and treated as criminals. What exactly the Arbitration Committee think that they provided as incentive for anyone to "rehabilitate"?
Sanctions have one of three rationales: punitive, preventative, or rehabilitative. People are referring to these topic-bans as punitive measures because of those three, only a punitive intent makes sense of what the ArbCom did. -- Antaeus Feldspar ( talk) 16:15, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
The simple truth here is that any editor trying to add info to Scientology topics has three basic types of sources to use:
Clearly info from Scientology and its critics has a place in our articles, but since both sides are biased more space must be reserved for mainstream sources without a bias one way or another. When drawing upon mainstream sources one can't help but notice the overall negative tone of coverage. Since neutrality, as defined in Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, means including all relevant non-biased sources. If we do that with regards to Scientology articles, the negative tone in our sources will also be reflected in our articles.
If one wants to give an overall neutral tone to Scientology articles, the only way to do so would be ignoring articles with titles like; "The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power". I can't make a topic sound any better or worse than the sources available make it sound, in this case they make Scientology sound pretty bad. It's not Dr. Touretzky's, Antaeus Feldspar's, or my fault that our sources paint a negative picture of Scientology. Anynobody( ?) 04:17, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
With all due respect to Roger Davies, his claim that "There is no element of punishment in any of the topic-bans" is completely and blatantly incorrect. While the bans may not have been enacted with a punitive intent, they do in fact serve to punish the editors against whom they were imposed. In a variety of ways, users subject to active sanctions by the Arbitration Committee are relegated to second-class citizenship on Wikipedia - for instance, they are persona non grata at RFA; Davies' assertion that "If any have moved on from Scientology, a Scientology topic ban will not hurt them" is obviously false. For this reason, while the committee may view past conduct as the background against which current behavior is considered, it should not sanction editors except when necessary to control present disruption. If the Arbitration Committee will not reverse its decision to topic-ban users over editing that occurred in 2007 and earlier, then Jimbo Wales should. Erik9 ( talk) 03:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I notice that most of the topic-banned critics haven't edited for a long time - so they have already done what the ban is meant to do ("editing other topics for a while"). Although this sounds like a conspiracy theory, it looks to me as if the idea was to block a few inactive critics to avoid a lawsuit by scientology, so to make it appear that the ban is "balanced", so that heads from "both sides" are put on pikes.
Yeah, the ban can be "appealed" after six months. Considering the way that my topic-ban was constructed in the first place (falsely labelling me a single purpose account, later corrected to a "Scientology-focused" account, then using edits on one single deleted-contrary-to-AFD article from three years ago as "evidence", but hiding the evidence-edits from the accused), I'd expect this "appeals" process to be like these parole hearings in movies, where the innocent guy is denied parole only after he admits guilt and feels "sincerly" sorry in several hearings :-) -- Tilman ( talk) 14:28, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
This is a request for a minor clarification or amendment of remedy #2 (IP addresses belonging to the Church of Scientology), to avoid a point of contention that is sure to arise some time soon.
The ruling states, "All IP addresses owned or operated by the Church of Scientology and its associates, broadly interpreted, are to be blocked as if they were open proxies. Individual editors may request IP block exemption if they wish to contribute from the blocked IP addresses."
Could the Committee clarify that this covers IP addresses reasonably believed to be owned or operated by the CoS, or that appear to be substantively used for that purpose or on their behalf, not just those where "ownership" is formally proven through an IP registrar or "operated by" is claimed (and disputed).
This guidance would be worth obtaining before any blocks start hitting the administrators' incident or arbitration enforcement noticeboards, and because it is an obvious block evasion/ wikilawyering tactic (obtaining new IP addresses not visibly "owned or operated" by CoS, even "broadly interpreted", would be trivially easy).
FT2 ( Talk | email) 12:13, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
I have edited almost no articles on scientology for over a year (I all but stopped after August 2007), but have still been topic-banned. This is like a scarlet letter which is while I'd like to have the ban lifted, even if I am not currently editing on this. My only "crime" was that I edited on Barbara Schwarz while at the same time being in a dispute with her on the usenet, in 2006, so this is three years old. I have never been blocked because of this.
I can't access my actual edits on Barbara Schwarz, so I can't defend myself there (especially the accusation that I was told of a CoI and kept editing), but I know that I take great care to use a "neutral" language when on wikipedia. Although a scientology critic, I have always been careful to respect WP:NPOV when editing, i.e. to avoid using inflammatory language. This is why I have been blocked only once in 2006 for two hours because of a 3RR mistake.
Amusingly, because the topic ban also applies to the discussion pages of scientology related articles, I am also prohibited on talking about Tilman Hausherr or Xenu's Link Sleuth, despite being an obvious expert on these. (I am aware that editing on the articles is of course always a no-no)
According to this article [9] citing one "Dan Rosenthal", there is only one of the banned critics who hasn't been reinstated, so this is me... -- Tilman ( talk) 20:16, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Despite what Dan Rosenthal said in the LA Times article Tilman cites, I've seen no evidence that any banned users have been reinstated. Both Antaeus Feldspar and I have appealed our bans, as Tilman is doing now. No progress to report yet. -- Touretzky ( talk) 01:07, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
The statement in question was made by the LA Times, not me. I did not state to them anything of the sort. ⇒ SWATJester Son of the Defender 04:21, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
"Topic-banning is not the same thing as a site-ban." They only differ in scope. Both of them send the blatant message: "This user is so wholly destructive and intractable that only brute force will curb their disruption." This claim becomes hard to support if we look at, for instance, Special:Contributions/Touretzky: it is hard to see how an editor who had not made any edits at all for over thirteen months prior to the start of the case represented such a threat of disruption that it justified such a drastic and stigmatizing response. This was not an isolated fluke; Touretzky is not the only such editor whose record shows over a year of inactivity, whether on the topic of Scientology or on all topics, before being abruptly labeled an imminent threat to Wikipedia whose purported disruption could only be neutralized with brute-force action. -- Antaeus Feldspar ( talk) 14:48, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Tilman, I notice you haven't done much editing in the past year. A word of advice. Take some articles in a topic other than Scientology to Good Article or better, Featured Article status during the next six months or so. That will show that you're intentions here are to build an encyclopedia. Then, nicely and politely, request that the topic ban be lifted. Cla68 ( talk) 07:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Remedy 8 ("Editors instructed") requires users "(B) To edit only through a conventional ISP and not through any form of proxy configuration". However, some Internet service providers run all users' Internet connections through a proxy. This includes or included AOL and the only ISP in Qatar (see WP:SIP). Other Internet service providers, such as all ISPs in the People's Republic of China (see WP:TOR), use other forms of connection filtering, and users of those ISPs cannot view or edit Wikipedia except through proxies. On behalf of people affected by an ISP's proxy, I request an explanation of why these people should remain topic-banned.
The method currently described by the pages on WP:WOCP has not worked since CentralAuth was enabled, as such mine has never been online, nor had any users. Q T C 16:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Initiated by Anynobody( ?) at 22:01, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm really not into edit warring and already practice a version of 1RR: If I add something sans a source which gets removed, I won't try restoring it until a good source can be found (since I don't edit as much as I used to this usually means a day or so.) I'm also not a fan of reverting edits without discussion. If I had a good source to begin with and my edit is removed without a logical reason I first add a section to the talk page explaining why my edit was valid regarding relevant policies/guidelines and then revert the article (usually trying different verbiage) noting to check talk page in the edit summary. Most people will then proceed to a discussion on the talk page where either I am convinced to remove the edit or the other editor is persuaded my original edit was ok.
Actually the docs I uploaded, were for the most part* discussed in this secondary source about Hubbard's service and his claims regarding it called Ron the War Hero. For example most of the documents I uploaded come from this page on the site about Hubbard's claimed sub kills. *An exception would be the ASW-1 form I uploaded, which was not found on the site. That was uploaded in case anyone reading Admiral Fletcher's report wondered what he meant by saying PC-815's report was not in accordance with ASW-1.
I'm not saying I was perfect, I certainly wouldn't add a reference like Admiral Weneker's report about Japanese subs not commerce raiding off the US coast as a response to Scientology claims that the Japanese were in the area often.
Fellow Wikipedians I started editing here in January 2007 and during the few months made some mistakes based on misunderstanding our rules. (Let's call them the early 2007 errors) By the time I was involved in the first Scientology case in July 2007 I thought I had done a good job of editing within policy and put the early 2007 errors behind me. The arbcom didn't seem concerned I was still making the same editing errors: Issue addressed was unrelated to editing articles. (It's also relevant to mention I completely refrained from contacting the other editor as mandated by the arbcom in that case.) By mid 2008 I had certainly come to understand how WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:OR, and WP:CITE work: Diff I think that's rational, bearing in mind that some use of CoS sources is necessary only to report their major assertions about him discussed in secondary sources. However CoS information which has not been in a relevant secondary source is probably unacceptable. (I should mention that I know the same standard applies to any source.)
In May 2009, citing my early 2007 errors, the arbcom topic banned me from editing Scientology topics. If the concern is that I'll go back to making the same early 2007 errors, creating WP:SYNTH, and getting involved with edit disputes I promise that is definitely not the case because I wasn't doing those things in 2009 when I was banned. (This is why I may come off as arrogant or unrepentant here, being punished for mistakes made two years earlier that have not been repeated since, is incredibly frustrating!) Anynobody( ?) 00:58, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}
Can the numbering or contents be fixed so that section 15.3.7 isn't remedy 8? I don't care which, but it would be nice if it were consistent. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle ( talk) 21:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
moved by me logged out at the Library put here by me logged in
The log of Remedies are merely that logs, Will's comment is noted and it is assumed Scott is abiding by it his suggestion. The Resident Anthropologist ( talk) 23:18, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
It is hard to assume good faith here. I have absolutely no partisan interest in Scientology, having contributed no content in that subject, and not having any intention to. Neither do I enforce arbcom restictions - I once did in a Scientology area in response to an unequivocal violation - it was entirely uncontroversial, and no one complained. So asking me to "stop" or "withdraw" from something I'm not doing seems strange. Will, who IS an involved editor, and with whom I've had a number of disagreements over his BLP editing, arrived on my talk page offering "advice" that I shouldn't do enforcement and demanding I admit to being "involved". I declined to do so. If anyone has issues with my editing I'll address them, but I'm not going to give pledges to partisans with apparent concerns over entirely unlikely hypotheticals. If any uninvolved admin believes that there is a real (and not hypothetical) danger I'm about to cross a line somewhere, I'll be happy to follow that advice. Otherwise this whole discussion seems like tendentious wikilawyering.-- Scott Mac 19:35, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Initiated by J N 466 10:21, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Since there is currently a fashion for this, I think I ought to apply myself. In the WP:ARBSCI case in 2009, almost exactly three years ago, I was placed under a topic ban "from articles about Rick Ross, broadly defined". This was largely the result of concerns over my fall 2008 edit-warring at the Ross BLP with a Wikipedia admin (since desysopped, topic-banned and community-banned), and the BLP subject's personal objection to my editing his biography.
Remedy 3B of ARBSCI provides that:
The current situation is that:
@Roger: I have no intention of returning to the topic area ("articles about Rick Ross, broadly defined"). Given that we submitted arbitration evidence about each other, I would not want him editing my biography, if I had one, and he is surely entitled to the same peace of mind. Regards. -- J N 466 08:30, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
@Jclemens, FWIW, I understand I was an idiot then, and I am sorry. In fact, I owe Ross an apology. Re-reading some of the article versions I defended in 2008 is a cringeworthy experience. J N 466 07:49, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
What I wrote about Prioryman also applies to Jayen466; he is one the best editors we have on Wikipedia. There may have been grounds to impose some restrictions in the past, but to keep them in force given his record is not justified. Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, so when we impose a topic ban, we are actually making the judgement that the editor in question is so much worse than a randomly selected person from the World's population, that you need to restrict that editor.
Even if we only focus on the past problems involving Jayen466 and Prioryman in the Scientology topic area, one can also argue that because they have been exposed to these problems in the past, they have become better editors as a result of that today. Count Iblis ( talk) 16:14, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
I would recommend against removing restrictions from JN, who was a principal in a veritable holy war against User:Cirt. The latter wound up being desysopped and we lost one of the best closers at AfD, while JN walked away with a "tsk tsk." Cirt's activity on this topic strikes me as being an underlying cause of this battle — a mini-POV war, if you will. Carrite ( talk) 01:46, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
User:Jayen should get a Wikipedia retainer for getting rid (helping to catalog and draw attention to the policy violations of) User:Cirt a violator of the project of the highest order (the worst I have seen in three years) that after WP:BLP restrictions here has simply moved to create BLP violating content on wikinews. As for Cirt's AFD prowess - he used to close ten a minute with one word closes, nothing special there. - this reply is in response to Carrite's comment, although what this request has to do with User:Cirt is really beyond me. Youreally can 11:56, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
I regret that, to my own shame, I had in the past "stood up" for Cirt on some issues of disagreement between him and JN. We all know the ultimate outcome there. I also acknowledge that the subject himself, Rick Ross, has been a bit of a controversial one. But JN is one of the best writers and editors I think we have, and this is a subject of interest to him, as it is, to a perhaps lesser degree, to me and others. I believe we would all be better off with as many very good editors like him (not so much me) involved in all articles as possible. Also, I am very heartened by some of JN's own comments above, which indicate that he would now act very differently in controversial matters. I think/hope that I have become a bit more neutral over the years, and I believe from my interactions with him JN certainly has. I can see no reason not to have the ban lifted. Worst comes to worst, the page could be placed under discretionary sanctions, which probably isn't that bad of an idea for most controversial subjects around here. John Carter ( talk) 20:24, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
I come from a similar place as John Carter, above, though I don't believe I was ever really involved with the case. My rather infrequent interactions with JN have benefited greatly from my gradual withdrawal from those entrenchments, and I have a much better opinion of this editor than I did before, and a more correct one, I believe. I think restrictions should be lifted. Drmies ( talk) 02:58, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
1) The restriction imposed on Jayen466 ( talk · contribs) by Remedy 21.1 of the Scientology case (" Jayen466 topic-banned from Rick Ross articles") is hereby lifted.
To replace the customised Scientology discretionary topic bans with standard discretionary sanctions:
This remedy is superseded with immediate effect by Remedy 4.1. All discretionary topic bans placed under Remedy 4 remain in full force and are subject to the provisions of Remedy 4.1.
Standard discretionary sanctions are authorised with immediate effect for the Scientology topic broadly construed. All warnings and sanctions shall be logged in the appropriate section of the main case page.
Just noting here that there is a long boilerplate on most articles in this topic area (see Talk:Bare-faced Messiah for an example). Does this need to be updated? Prioryman ( talk) 07:45, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Initiated by Prioryman ( talk) at 00:38, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Note to arbitrators: I have separated this out as a separate request for your consideration in addition to the ARBCC appeal above. The discussion there has got unduly lengthy and has confused the two cases; the two matters really need to be considered on their own merits. Please address my ARBCC appeal above, and this ARBSCI appeal below, as independent appeals.
In the WP:ARBSCI case in 2009 I agreed to a set of binding voluntary restrictions. These were that within the topic area (i) I limit my edits to directly improving articles to meet GA and FA criteria, using reliable sources; (ii) I make no edits of whatever nature to biographies of living people; and (iii) I refrain from sysop action of whatever nature. The findings against me concerned conduct as a sysop, which is no longer relevant as I no longer exercise that function, and errors in the sourcing of articles. I acknowledged error at the time and voluntarily proposed the restrictions under which I currently operate.
The case came about due to concerns about COI editing and role accounts [12]. I was not involved in those issues and was only added to the case at a very late stage. There was no suggestion at the time that I was involved in any ongoing issues; all of the findings against me related to a small number of historical edits, the most recent of which had been made a year before the case and the oldest of which went back all the way to August 2005, over four years before the case.
Remedy 3B of the case provides that:
The current situation is that:
The sanctions are no longer necessary for the following reasons:
I would also like the Committee to note that the restrictions were voluntarily proposed by myself, and I request that I be given credit for this. I therefore ask for the restrictions to be lifted.
I'd like to remind editors topic-banned under ARBSCI or banned from interacting with me that they aren't allowed to comment on this request here or on any other page on Wikipedia. Prioryman ( talk) 00:38, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
I would advise against lifting the ARBSCI BLP restriction at this time. I would like to see a substantial history of even-handed, neutral editing in generic articles first. No objection to lifting the remainder of the restriction. -- J N 466 20:14, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Similar to what I wrote about Jayen466's request, the restrictions should be lifted for Prioryman also in this case. The entire BLP topic area has come under much stricter oversight than just a few years ago, and this system also works quite smoothly. And I don't think Prioryman will behave as a troublemaker in this area, given his record in the BLP area outside this particular topic area. Count Iblis ( talk) 20:03, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
− I oppose lifting of this users Scientology arbitration restrictions - The user is one of the twenty notable people attacking Scientology - I strongly oppose his reintegration to the BLP sector in this topic - non WP:BLP I would not object to - I would prefer him to be honest and connect himself to the Helatrobus account. - Youreally can 04:49, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Another editor writing above hopes to see "a substantial history of even-handed, neutral editing in generic articles first". I think that's exactly what we *do* see at this point, and I would support lifting the restrictions -- this is clearly a productive and intelligent editor, an asset to the project. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 06:29, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
1) The restriction imposed on Prioryman ( talk · contribs) by Remedy 17 of the Scientology case (" ChrisO restricted") is hereby lifted.
Initiated by Lyncs ( talk) at 17:10, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Suspension of site ban: User:Justanother / User:Justallofthem
Your indefinite site ban is suspended subject to your unconditional acceptance of and compliance with the following restrictions:
Single account limitation
You may edit from one account only - currently Lyncs (talk · contribs) - with no exceptions for whatever reason. You may rename that account provided (i) you immediately notify the committee of the rename; (ii) the redirects from the prior account name remain in place; and (iii) you display a link to the previous account name on your user page.
Interaction ban Cirt
i) You may neither communicate with nor comment upon or make reference to either directly or indirectly to User:Cirt or their contributions on any page in the English Wikipedia. You may not edit Cirt's talk or user pages though you may, within reason, comment within other pages providing your comments do not relate directly or indirectly to Cirt or their edits. The sole exception to the interaction ban is that you may respond civilly on matters explicitly pertaining to you raised by Cirt or any other editor in any dispute resolution or enforcement context.
ii) Should you violate the letter or spirit of the restrictions above, you may be blocked without prior warning via the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard: on the first occasion for up to one week; on the second occasion for up to one month; and on the third occasion for up to three months. Appeal of any blocks is to the Arbitration Committee.
Topic banned from Scientology
You are indefinitely topic-banned from Scientology on the standard terms outlined here.
For the Arbitration Committee, Roger talk 13:20, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
I was conditionally reinstated well over one year ago with the comment at the time that I could ask to have the restrictions lifted following some period of good behavior. I believe that statement was in an email from an arbitrator and can try to find it if needed.
It is now well over one year and I think that I have evidenced my good behavior and good intentions. I do not edit all that much but might edit more in the future. I would prefer to 1) have access to a subject, Scientology, that I am extremely conversant with and 2) not have any live mines that I might inadvertently step onto vis-a-vis interaction bans or the like.
It is not my intention to interact with Cirt and it is currently not my intention to edit Scientology articles but I do not think there is any need to bar me from either at this point. If I do edit in Scientology (which could happen) or interact with Cirt (which is unlikely), I would still be bound by the rules and norms of Wikipedia with the added factor that I will be subject to certain scrutiny so I think it is not inappropiate to grant this request. Thank you.
1. Response to Newyorkbrad: Lifting the one account restriction is the least of my concerns and if that is a deciding factor or a factor of concern then I have no problem continuing editing solely from this account. -- Lyncs ( talk) 12:00, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
2. Response to AGK: I could make argument on the merits of the original sanctions and possible injustices but I am not interesting in rehashing that nor, I imagine, is the committee. The fact that I have been back for well over one year and have not had any problems is indicative of the fact that I am not into causing problems. That is an important point. Troublemakers cause trouble. They do not stop because they are now excluded from one area or another. They make trouble where they are. That is not what I am about.
On second thought, I will say one thing of a general nature related to my sanctions. When I started editing here, I edited the Scientology articles as that was something I had been involved with for many years. If you are familiar with that territory prior to the arbitration, the Scientology articles were a battleground of anti-Scientology zealots warring with Scientology zealots with the antis well in control of the situation. But it was noisy nonetheless. I arrived as a non-zealot Scientologist just trying to add some balance and the benefit of my knowledge. While there were and are plenty of non-zealot folks that do not think highly of Scientology, few seemed to accept that there could be a Scientologist that was a not a zealot. To most, especially the antis, all Scientologists were programmed, brainwashed, and agents of the evil OSA. But that is how zealots see things. I made many thousands of edits. My edits were never much of an issue. What was the issue was that I screamed pretty loudly when getting stuck with pins. I think that the project is wiser now on the subject of Scientology. I hope it is wiser on the subject of wiki-bullying in general.
I could discretely canvass my wiki-friends and ask them to speak for me but I am not going to do that. They are, of course, welcome to speak on my behalf if they care to; I am just not going around asking anyone to do so.
I think the fact that no-one feels strongly enough about my request to come over here and object says something also. I think the fact that it is so quiet here speaks for my request, not against it.
In other words, I present the case that my request is almost a non-issue and I am simply looking for the sanctions to be lifted as "time served" with a warning to watch my step in the future or as appropriate. -- Lyncs ( talk) 00:55, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
3. Response to Roger Davies: All due respect, but I am not sure what more persuasive argument I can make regarding the two and third issues.
I think the fact that three years have elapsed since the end of the Scientology case and I have had next to zero interaction with Cirt and exhibited zero inclination to harass him in any manner should, IMO, be all the argument I need make. What more can I say? I have already stated that "it is not my intention to interact with Cirt". It is not my intention to interact with Cirt and certainly not my intention to cause him grief. I just do not feel that, based on my evidenced lack of intention to harass him, I need have concern about violating a sanction were our paths to cross in some innocuous fashion. Let me put it a bit more strongly; it is my intention to avoid crossing paths with Cirt where possible and to keep things civil if circumstance puts us on the same page.
Regarding the one account restriction, as I state above, that one I can live with but, again based on good behavior, I also would be fine with having it lifted and simply being reinstated in full. -- Lyncs ( talk) 16:10, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
4. Response to "Statement by Cirt": I think it is appropriate to respond to Cirt's points seeing as he posted them as arguments against my request. If the committee feels this is not appropriate then this edit can be undone. I do not think that his arguments against my request are compelling as outlined below:
Thank you. -- Lyncs ( talk) 23:47, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I took a quick look at Lyncs' 100 most recent article space edits. The edits seem to be fine, but they go back quite far (Aug 2011) and aren't incredibly substantial so there isn't a lot of history to examine. NW ( Talk) 03:51, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
I've been informed by Arbitration Clerk AlexandrDmitri that I may respond to this request, diff.
I have to strongly oppose this request by Lyncs ( talk · contribs), for several reasons.
Thank you for your time, — Cirt ( talk) 14:55, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I count as a friend of Lyncs' (Justanother), which should be kept in mind when reading the following. But I guess not many people remember this stuff, so after some hesitation I decided to weigh in all the same.
Lyncs doesn't edit much, no. It's chilling to be under restrictions that express so much distrust in one's good will. His continued interest in Wikipedia is evidenced by his remaining a gnomish editor throughout this long period. To me it seems reasonable to believe him when he states that he doesn't harbour any intentions to interact with Cirt or — at present — to edit Scientology articles. I'd be really, really surprised if he even wanted to have anything to do with Cirt. This is not the place to criticise Cirt, but since the 2011 ArbCom desysopped him, the long-time campaign of his protector (who has left Wikipedia, so there's no reason to name her here) to discredit Justanother as an evil machiavellian harasser of the paragon Cirt has perhaps lost some credibility. This ANI thread from 2008, an attempt to get Justanother community banned, is a particularly egregious example. I'm happy to note that the community ban process has been cleaned up some since then. (My criticism of how it worked on this occasion is here, right at the end, in case you can't face reading the whole. It's a very colourful thread, though, especially the.. uh.. different culture evinced in the input from the two Wikinews editors.)
If Lyncs should return to Scientology on a large scale, and/or in a questionable manner, it would surely be easy to reinstate the restrictions. I suggest all the restrictions be removed (unless everybody including Lyncs is happy with the restriction to one account), perhaps with phrasing that provides for quick and simple reinstatement of them, if required. Bishonen | talk 15:03, 2 June 2012 (UTC).
With respect to Bishonen above, the topical and interpersonal disputes are in a separate league to the issue of inappropriate use of multiple accounts - the Community has always (to this day) expressed strong views on this issue, given how serious a breach of trust it is. A relevant question, I think, is what caused or tempted the user to the inappropriate use of multiple accounts - did it start off during a dispute in the topic (or with Cirt), did it start off as a matter of generality, or was it well-intentioned conduct that was inadvertantly disruptive (which has now been clarified and remedied)? Unless it is the latter, or this is a case where a single account restriction was completely unwarranted, I would not be comfortable with lending support to the removal of a single account restriction (even with a discretionary sanctions regime). If it did start off during a dispute in a topic or with an user, and that user has subsequently demonstrated there are no issues with his editing in that topic or with that user, then I would agree about the chilling effect - but we are not even at that point yet. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 16:06, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm not at all sure why anyone thinks there's a need to remove the interaction ban. That seems to be doing its job quite well, and we have no evidence here that the user's behavior has improved in any substantial way. Even more strongly, I see no reason to remove the ban on scientology edits. We're dealing with someone who made a single purpose account to POV push and launch a "campaign"(ArbCom's word) against Cirt. [15] (I strongly suggest that people review that finding of fact and the evidence in the case). That was the finding of fact. So far, we've seen no reason to think that the user even is willing to say that maybe his actions were wrong or against policy. We have no reason to think he isn't going to go back to his usual disruption of Scientology articles. By all means let him edit, and let him do so far away from Cirt and far away from Scientology. JoshuaZ ( talk) 16:13, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
For reference, the current restrictions on Lyncs ( talk · contribs) (who previously edited as Justanother ( talk · contribs) and Justallofthem ( talk · contribs)) are:
Your indefinite site ban is suspended subject to your unconditional acceptance of and compliance with the following restrictions:
Single account limitation
You may edit from one account only - currently Lyncs ( talk · contribs) - with no exceptions for whatever reason. You may rename that account provided (i) you immediately notify the committee of the rename; (ii) the redirects from the prior account name remain in place; and (iii) you display a link to the previous account name on your user page.
i) You may neither communicate with nor comment upon or make reference to either directly or indirectly to User:Cirt or their contributions on any page in the English Wikipedia. You may not edit Cirt's talk or user pages though you may, within reason, comment within other pages providing your comments do not relate directly or indirectly to Cirt or their edits. The sole exception to the interaction ban is that you may respond civilly on matters explicitly pertaining to you raised by Cirt or any other editor in any dispute resolution or enforcement context.
ii) Should you violate the letter or spirit of the restrictions above, you may be blocked without prior warning via the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard: on the first occasion for up to one week; on the second occasion for up to one month; and on the third occasion for up to three months. Appeal of any blocks is to the Arbitration Committee.
You are indefinitely topic-banned from Scientology on the standard terms outlined here.
Proposed:
Proposed:
Proposed:
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Prioryman ( talk) at 07:52, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
I'd be grateful if the Committee could clarify a couple of points regarding Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Scientology.
@Salvio: Thanks for the advice, but I'm simply trying to clarify the situation with the scope of the sanctions and the project banner. Thanks for doing so. Prioryman ( talk) 18:02, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Based on previous statements and clarifications by the ArbCom (not related to Scientology) I would suggest that the discretionary sanctions apply to all Scientology content on Wikipedia, including templates and sections of larger articles.
Regarding the template, the key aspect of discretionary sanctions is that editors must be aware of them before they can be sanctioned under them. A notice on the talk page is a convenient way to alert people that the sanctions exist and that that article is within the scope of them. It is not the only way though, for example if you edit warred about adding significant Scientology-related content to Riverside County, California you could not successfully argue that you were not aware of the existence of DS for the topic area even if there wasn't a template on the article talk page. Thryduulf ( talk) 09:54, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
I have already (grudgingly) conceded the point that that single passage in the article is under Arbcom's Scientology-related purview. We are discussing ways to move forward on the talk page now, regarding how to make it clear to present and future editors that that is the case, and that the list in its entirety is not under discretionary sanctions. JClemens' comment yesterday regarding granularity and mixed-element articles was insightful. Tarc ( talk) 12:59, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
That said, I also agree with IRWolfie- that, in the case which prompted your question, the use of discretionary sanctions would have been inappropriate: they are a tool to protect Wikipedia, not a club to beat your opponents over the head with.
Finally, speaking as an editor and not as an Arbitrator, after an AfD, a DRV, an AE thread and a clarification request, will you please remove List of Wikipedia controversies from your watchlist and forget about it for at least a month? If there are serious problems, someone else will certainly notice; no need for you to stay there to hold the fort. Salvio Let's talk about it! 09:41, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Sandstein at 22:11, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Recent actions I undertook to enforce the decision in the case WP:ARBSCI (the Scientology case) have given rise to an extended discussion at the ANI thread indicated above. I identify three key questions related to the case that are controversial in good faith among at least some participants to that thread:
For my views on what I understand the answers to be based on my interpretation of current policies, please refer to my ANI statement. In short: 1. yes, 2. yes, 3. no.
A response by the Committee would help to mitigate the drama and (in my view) ongoing privacy breaches generated by that thread, and would also help me and others bring their conduct more in line with the Committee's expectations, to the extent necessary. As an administrator regularly working at WP:AE, I at least would appreciate being able to review and modify any current or future sanctions by me depending on this feedback.
And while you're at it, could you please indicate when (if ever) the in-progress revision of WP:AC/DS, particularly the clarification of the appeals procedure, will be forthcoming? Thanks, Sandstein 22:11, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
I'd like to thank the five arbitrators who have commented, and all those who have offered constructive criticism here and at ANI. Attempting to summarize the arbitrators' views with respect to what I consider the salient issues:
I broadly agree with this assessment: I have now been pointed to a 2009 edit by Prioryman where they acknowledge their real name by providing a diff in which, they say, they edited a citation to their own works, and where the diff leads to a reference with the name at issue. This excludes outing in the narrow sense defined at WP:OUTING, because that policy excepts situations where "that person voluntarily had posted his or her own information, or links to such information, on Wikipedia". But, as arbitrators have emphasized, posting the name against the editor's will except where clearly justified (in COI discussions: WP:OUTING, par. 2, third sentence), is sanctionable harassment under most circumstances in my view.
But, in the light of the foregoing, Prioryman's expressed desire for administratively enforced protection from privacy-breaching harassment in the Scientology context still appears worthy of protection. Therefore I intend to impose a discretionary sanction prohibiting onwiki publication of alleged real names of Prioryman, except by or with permission of arbitrators, or (for the purpose of COI discussions) by or with permission of uninvolved administrators. All users who contributed to this or the ANI thread would be informed about this sanction, which would of course be appealable as usual. If there are any objections by arbitrators to this way of moving forward with this issue, I'd of course appreciate hearing them. Sandstein 23:00, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
@ Salvio giuliano:: In my view, a reason to treat this particular editor differently vis-à-vis all the others who have disclosed their identity onwiki is that, unlike all these other editors, this editor has been, as far as I can tell, the subject of continued efforts at on- and offwiki harassment because of longtime feuds involving Scientology and Gibraltar, another DS topic. (He may well share part or all of the blame for these disputes – I don't know anything about them – but that does not change that he, like any other editor, is entitled to edit Wikipedia without being harassed.) However, if you and other arbitrators believe this proposed sanction is not proportionate, then a way to implement the case-by-case approach you envision would be to issue further discretionary sanctions warnings to the individuals whose recent conduct leads me to believe may be among those who might engage in harassing conduct in the future; this would allow targeted ex post facto discretionary sanctions.
Jayen466 (who, the Committee has found, has previously engaged in edit-warring to advance a Scientology-related agenda, and has been subject to a Committee topic ban) is mistaken to consider, below, that the information that the editor at issue may years ago have indirectly identified himself invalidates the block of Drg55, or my other admin actions. Outing is only a specialized form of harassment. The block of Drg55 and my warning and sanction remain valid for (actual or possible) harassment, whether or not it was or would also be outing in the technical sense. Additionally, any alleged conflict of interest situation does not excuse the conduct of Drg55, because Drg55 engaged in harassment in the context of an appeal of his own topic ban for his own misconduct. This is not a situation in which any conflict of interest of another editor with respect to some other article requires any discussion at all. Furthermore, what triggered this clarification request is my sanction against The Devil's Advocate, which is not a result of Drg55's actions, but of those by The Devil's Advocate. Sandstein 15:53, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
The underlying problem is that my offense was not that I at any point disclosed Prioryman's real name. Oversighters are free to look for themselves to confirm that my comments to Sandstein only noted Prioryman's previous account, which is identified plainly on a WP:ARBSCI section I linked to in my comment, and that Prioryman had used the previous account to restore self-published information, which is backed with public diffs on the WP:ARBSCI finding I linked to in my comment. Furthermore I linked to a community noticeboard discussion from October where it was decided that mentioning Prioryman's first and last name did not constitute outing due to numerous public disclosures on-wiki. He warned me for that initial post and apparently sanctioned me just for noting Prioryman's previous account in my response to said warning. If I had noted Prioryman's last name on either occasion then I might understand his actions, even though they would still be in error, but I find it hard to accept that I can be sanctioned just for repeating what is noted at the public arbitration page being used to support the sanction.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 22:54, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
My statements at ANI speak for themselves and I suggest reading that entire thread. My concern isn't Prioryman, but the threat of Arb sanctions on unsuspecting editors. It seems to me that threatening a user with Arb sanctions should be the exception, used only when it is the best or only option, not a regular or "ordinary" course of action simply out of convenience. Since discretionary sanctions are a "fast track" exception to standard community policies, as defined by the Arbitration Committee, and not a community determined policy, they must be treated as such. There exists a high potential for abuse due to the limited avenues of review, which is why it seems they were designed to be used sparingly when there is a clear need, and with a higher standard of accountability. Because they are an exception to actual policies, they should be narrow in scope and used cautiously.
When an editor is threated to be blocked via an Arb sanction, and knows that no admin can review or overturn that block, and only the admin making the threat or the Arbitration Committee can review it, this is a big deal. There is nothing "ordinary" about it. Of course, that is the purpose, to deal with the worse problems where policy falls short. When this is done in a situation and it is clearly unneeded and overkill, it is brutal to editor retention and morale. It flatly comes across as admin bullying, even if that is not the intent. Arb sanction blocks do not have the same checks and balances that a regular block has, and most people know little of Arb, except that it is something to be avoided. Without comment on this particular case, I maintain that using the threat of an Arb sanctioned block when it is clearly not needed would be a textbook case of abuse of admin tools, as only admin can issue these warnings.
Sandstein has clearly indicated that he believes that these sanctions can and should be used any time that their use isn't a direct policy violation. I believe this is turning the system upside down. Community policy comes first, and Arb sanctions are for when regular policy is insufficient. The standard should be (or is) that Arb sanctions are somewhat narrow in scope and should only be used when less aggressive methods are not likely to be effective, or have been tried and failed. Not necessarily the last resort, but certainly not the first resort. These aren't emergency situations, and if they were, the block button is the right tool. His interpretation is a recipe for abuse, as it would allow some admin to use them liberally to simply prevent review of his blocks, thus dominate an area, while greatly limiting the scrutiny in each block. The threat of an Arb sanction is simply too powerful a tool to be used so casually. Clarity is requested. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:51, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
Drawing to your attention my comment at [16] as it deals with your privacy jurisdiction. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 00:00, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
My position is similar to TDA's above.
I made two posts to Sandstein's talk page querying his actions. These are visible in the last section of this version of his talk page. In those posts I linked to User:ChrisO, (which is and was a redirect to User:Prioryman,) but did not explicitly state any of the user's more recent account names. I also linked to the archived ANI discussion Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive773#Repeated_violation_of_RfC_restrictions_-_site_ban_proposed_for_Youreallycan and referred to User:Qwyrxian's closing summary. I pointed out that Sandstein had gone against the community's consensus or near consensus that naming Prioryman is not outing. In accordance with the spirit of the conclusion I did not give Prioryman's real name even though I think that it has become a secret as open as that of the identity of the author of Waverley at the time that Bertrand Russell wrote " On_Denoting". I then said I would take Sandstein to AN for going against the community consensus or near consensus previously expressed at ANI id the issue of Prioryman's name was the substance of his actions against TDA and Drg55. Sandstein's response was to issue me with an Arbitration warning under the Scientology case. To the best of my recollection I have never edited any articles related to Scientology and have not concerned myself with that dispute.
I therefore ask the committee:
1) When a previously uninvolved editor questions an admin and asks them to account for the use of their admin powers, is it legitimate for the admin to immediately use their admin powers against the editor who has just challenged them? If so, what are the circumstances under which this is legitimate? My view is that Sandstein has violated at least the spirit of WP:Involved by taking the actions he did against TDA and myself. He has also gone against policy and guidelines regarding admin accountability through using his powers to intimidate those who have questioned him
2) When an admin is using his powers to enforce opinions which have been demonstrated at ANI or similar locations not to have the consensus of the community, has he got the right to persist in going against that consensus and to use his admin powers against those who have pointed it out? My view is that only Arbcom, Jimbo or WMF employees taking staff actions should be allowed to be anything like as cavalier about over-ruling the community's judgment as Sandstein has been.
3) When an editor has a long history of being uninvolved in a topic area and does not say anything related to that subject, is it legitimate to use sanctions related only to that content area? My opinion is no. I have had previous disagreements with Prioryman but these have been related to the Fae case and to Gibraltarpedia and, more generally, differences of opinion over Wikipediocracy and the running of WMUK. If my conduct was problematic, and I consider that it was not, then it should only be sanctions applicable in those areas that should have been used.
I ask Arbcom to undo the actions that Sandstein has taken against me. Also, on the evidence I can see, I think that the actions against TDA should also be reversed. I have not looked at Drg55's history but I ask Arbcom to do so and consider whether at the least the grounds for various admin actions need tweaking. I also ask Arbcom to consider recent criticism in assorted places on Wikipedia of Sandstein's conduct and consider whether some guidance and advice would be of value.-- Peter cohen ( talk) 00:07, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Given that consideration is being given to protecting Prioryman's name from association with the Arbcom case. I ask that consideration be given to disassociating mine? Even though I cannot be unnotified, Sandstein's poor judgment has resulted in my name being recorded on the same page as Prioryman's website is linked and being associated with Scientology.-- Peter cohen ( talk) 10:29, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
I should like to draw attention to various aspects of policy and Arbcom rules and procedures that Sandstein has ignored
It is clear that Sandstein has only come to the committee because he has lost control of the situation and the community has become involved despite his best efforts to prevent in being allowed to express its views on this matter. His actions against me and TDA show that he lacks the ability to consider the possibility that he might be wrong. Wikipedia is littered with posts such as [
"I'm deeply, deeply tempted to jump on the desysop bandwagon as well. "ArbCom repeatedly refuses to do anything about blatantly-unsuitable admins"
— check. And cowboys such as Sandstein and ... place blocks that they obviously know are highly controversial, without advising with anybody, without warning the user, and throw primadonna fits if somebody ventures to unblock without first collecting a consensus on ANI." I wonder if the poster of that message would consider Sandstein's actions against TDA and myself to be throwing primadonna fits.--
Peter cohen (
talk)
16:42, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Would you still maintain this opinion if a) an admin party to an Arbcom case who thought that they were about to be de-sysopped went and issued assorted warnings against the Arbcoms members they blamed for their impending de-sysopping; or b) an admin who had become disillusioned with WP issued warnings against various people listed at Wikipedia:Famous_Wikipedians, picking and choosing subjects that would be particularly likely to be sensitive to the targets?-- Peter cohen ( talk) 17:34, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Here is a section of the [ thread] to which TDA and I drew Sandstein#s attention
Thanks, Prioryman, so the issue is not the old username. Is it just the surname that is the issue?--Bbb23 (talk) 23:58, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Yes, that's correct. Prioryman (talk) 23:59, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
These quotes are not from far down the thread in question.
The reference to any potential rudeness in referring to User:ChrisO is therefore a red herring. Prioryman has stated that it is not a problem within the last none months. Perhaps he has changed his mind since October, but for someone to have the mens rea to be harassing him by referring to the ChrisO identity, that person needs to be aware that Prioryman has changed his mind. As far as I know he has not, which also means that I doubt that TDA would be aware of any such hypothetical change. Therefore Sandstein's claiming that TDA was outing Prioryman by mentioning the "ChrisO account is spurious and therefore the sanction is unjustified. Further Sandstein's failure to read even as much as the first couple of screens of the ANI discussion to which two users have drawn his attention in order to find that the reference to "ChrisO" has been declared not to be problematic by the man himself shows that Sandstein has the mens rea for culpable neglect or willful negligence in his exercise of his Admin powers. He either could not be bothered to perform his duties (culpable neglect) or was so arrogant in his conviction that he is always right and that mere ordinary users did not have the right to challenge him that he did not look (willful negligence).
In either case the discussion of whether it is harassment to mention the previous userid of Prioryman is a red herring except as evidence that the people who have been mentioning it up to now haven't yet done their homework.-- Peter cohen ( talk) 22:22, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
@Alanscottwalker You have failed to notice that Sandstein made it about the person from the moment he chose not to assume good faith and not to abide by rules of admin accountability by using his against the individuals who questioned his previous use of them. By issuing warnings and by using discretionary sanctions he made this matter an issue of user conduct and not one of discussing the applicability of certain powers to a situation. Once he chose to make user conduct part of the issue, then his own conduct could not be excluded from this affair. He only sought advice from Arbcom on this matter after a substantial number of users condemned his actions at ANI.
You also ignore basic human psychology. When someone has a legitimate complaint and they are rebuffed, then the normal reaction to such behavior is to shout louder. Just look through some recent newspapers and I am sure you will find people saying about hospitals or police or other public institutions that it was not financial compensation that they wanted, rather all they wanted to do is have their complaint listened to fairly. It is the action of the authorities trying to silence the complaint that then creates all the drama that ends in the court cases and newspaper reports and hearings in parliament. It is the behavior of people like Sandstein and of people like you who back him as a reflex action that is the root cause of Wikidrama, not that of people who have been the victims of admin abuse. The Wikipedian way you praise is what has resulted in umpteen content creators walking out, in Wikipediocracy thriving and gaining press coverage of malfeasance on this site because it ignores how anger and hurt are the feelings generated in ordinary human beings who are maltreated by officialdom and that it is perfectly normal to express those feelings of anger and hurt by complaining about the abusive officials. Telling people that they have no right to express the anger and hurt just creates more anger and hurt and increases the expression of it. Dennis Brown, however, has modeled behavior that reduces drama through asking questions to clarify his understanding of what has been going on and by waiting to hear from Sandstein before reaching his conclusions about the matter. If more people at ANI followed his lead, then there would be an awful lot less drama.-- Peter cohen ( talk) 11:10, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
I don't see how this is needed. As indicated above Prioryman has not too long ago replied to an explicit question that his old id being mentioned is not an issue. No one has produced evidence that TDA and Prioryman have an intense ongoing dispute. In fact, in a recent AN thread concerning Gibraltarpedia, TDA supported Prioryman's assertion about some Gibraltarian being notable. All TDA has done to trigger Sandstein's ire is to point to evidence contrary to Sandstein's interpretation of the fact. Sandstein chose to ignore policy on admin accountability and started slapping around warnings and enforcement restrictions. If he felt that the discussion should not be on Wikipedia, Sandstein had the option of emailing TDA and carrying on the conversation offline. Sandstein rejected the civil options and decided to go all Terminator instead. There is no need for any ongoing restriction.-- Peter cohen ( talk) 12:29, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
I asked the following in my original statement and don't see much response from the Arbs. I ask them again in the hope that they might be noticed this time.
1) When a previously uninvolved editor questions an admin and asks them to account for the use of their admin powers, is it legitimate for the admin to immediately use their admin powers against the editor who has just challenged them? If so, what are the circumstances under which this is legitimate? My view is that Sandstein has violated at least the spirit of WP:Involved by taking the actions he did against TDA and myself. He has also gone against policy and guidelines regarding admin accountability through using his powers to intimidate those who have questioned him
2) When an admin is using his powers to enforce opinions which have been demonstrated at ANI or similar locations not to have the consensus of the community, has he got the right to persist in going against that consensus and to use his admin powers against those who have pointed it out? My view is that only Arbcom, Jimbo or WMF employees taking staff actions should be allowed to be anything like as cavalier about over-ruling the community's judgment as Sandstein has been.
3) When an editor has a long history of being uninvolved in a topic area and does not say anything related to that subject, is it legitimate to use sanctions related only to that content area? My opinion is no. I have had previous disagreements with Prioryman but these have been related to the Fae case and to Gibraltarpedia and, more generally, differences of opinion over Wikipediocracy and the running of WMUK. If my conduct was problematic, and I consider that it was not, then it should only be sanctions applicable in those areas that should have been used.
-- Peter cohen ( talk) 20:28, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
Leaving other issues behind, I just want to say please, please, please listen to Sandstein's last sentence, for the love of Pete. People are asking for warnings to be rescinded. I still don't believe warnings can be rescinded, as I view them as mere notifications, but since the committee has never clarified this, I cannot prove this, nor can those who believe warnings are a first step to sanctions. We asked for clarification on this months ago (I can't even remember how many). It's not right that we've had to wait this long. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 05:01, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Warnings are logged here for future reference by other admins (who may directly apply sanctions as a next step). If the warnings were inappropriate, of course you can rescind them. You just delete them from the log, or strike them. What's so difficult? Andreas JN 466 12:42, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
@ Salvio giuliano: In practice, a logged warning means that any other admin can block or ban the user without further notice. It's a target painted on the user's back. This is not theory: it's what happened to The Devil's Advocate here. If the warning was inappropriate (and it was, in both cases), it should be rescinded, simple as that, to "reset" these editors' status to the same status everyone else enjoys.
We now have two (possibly three, given that there was a COI issue in that article) arbitrators saying that even Drg55's original mention of the editor's surname was not outing, which is the official reason given for the block given in Drg55's block log. So half the arbitrators commenting here are saying that Sandstein's block rationale was invalid. This is all The Devil's Advocate and Peter cohen said. As things stand, Roger and Salvio are permitted to say it wasn't outing, without finding their names logged on the ARBSCI page by Sandstein, while The Devil's Advocate and Peter cohen stand warned and sanctioned for saying the same thing. This is not right. Please remove their warnings from the log, and rescind The Devil's Advocate's sanction. -- Andreas JN 466 23:46, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
@ Mathsci: I think we are all in agreement that Drg55 should remain topic-banned. But your trying to demonstrate that Drg55 is a wicked scoundrel is beside the point. For, to quote a man I am fond of, "it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all" ( Mencken). Censoring arbcom pages years after the fact to make something that happened in plain sight of the community unhappen is Stalinist rubbish.
The right thing to do is to sanction Drg55 for what s/he did. The wrong thing to do is to change the truth for them and everyone else just so that you can use a bigger ban hammer on them. Andreas JN 466 08:39, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
@ Mathsci: I agree that Drg55's editing was disruptive, and said as much at AE. Drg55 would need to learn a bit more about sourcing policies and come to a better understanding of what sources are and are not considered okay to cite; as it was, s/he did not respond well to entirely germane criticism of his/her sources. In light of that, declining the appeal against the topic ban seemed perfectly reasonable. Andreas JN 466 10:53, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
Sandstein has now posted the following at AN/I:
This is not encouraging. Sandstein's view that this was outing has not been supported here: Sandstein would have to warn and sanction several arbitrators for telling him the precise thing that Peter cohen and The Devil's Advocate told him. (Both said it was not outing, without repeating the name, which is precisely what several arbitrators did below.) In addition, Sandstein elides the fact that there was a very significant conflict-of-interest issue in the article at question, which is at best ignorant, and at worst disingenuous, given that the very question of whether the mere mention of the name itself is even harassment hinges on whether there is a conflict of interest or not. Furthermore, Sandstein promises that he will take unspecified further action on his own, bypassing the committee. This is nothing but a power grab by someone who dearly wanted to be an arbitrator, but has never managed to garner enough of the community's trust to actually become one, and for good reasons. Andreas JN 466 14:10, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
I object to Sandstein's reference to an "alleged" name of the editor in question. The editor in question, the former ChrisO, identified himself by name in his edits, voluntarily, and linked his old account to his new one, voluntarily. Bells can not be unrung, nor virginity restored. Once an editor identifies by name on WP, that editor is identified by name on WP. For example, I can't tomorrow start to squawk about "outing" and ask that all references to my real life name, Tim Davenport, be stricken from WP and any future reference to it result in sanctions. That's just the way it is. Sandstein is expressing an extreme view of this situation, one with plenty of precedent on Wiki to discount his position. Carrite ( talk) 16:06, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
To contrast with what Dennis is saying; warning about "Arb sanctions on unsuspecting editors" is precisely what one should do where sanctions are in force. Articles are under discretionary sanctions precisely because a "fast track" exception to standard community policies is what is needed in those topics areas covered by them, and editors in that topic area should know. These warnings should not be treated as something handed out with great deliberation and controversy, or else they lose the entire point of their existence; trying to deal with particularly problematic areas.
There is a process for getting an AE decision overturned; that a single admin can't just simply overturn it is irrelevant. Discretionary sanctions are here because they are a necessary mechanism in those topics areas. From experience, one also gets a damn sight more due process at AE than at ANI. The contrast with AE is a lynchmob. What's the alternative? Look at the ANI thread about Sandstein, where those with an axe to grind come out of the wood work and don't declare their involvement.
Sanctions, meanwhile are almost universally defined as being broad in scope across a topic area, they are not narrowly defined (I don't know of any such case of narrowly defined DS scope), and its uninvolved admins that look at the case. The checks and balances are stronger for AE than ANI, and there is a clearly defined process.
.. and it's not just admins that can warn about DS, the guidelines were ambiguous last time I checked and non-admins have given warnings, IRWolfie- ( talk) 17:47, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Already we have a situation where there are very few admins who are willing to patrol AE and discretionary-sanctioned subject areas, and the Committee should be extremely careful in their comments and actions in this case, since the result could be that even fewer admins will be willing to police it, which will leave a gaping hole in the enforcement of ArbCom decisions. Unless the Committee is prepared to take personal responsibility for the enforcement of all its decisions, it needs admins such as Sandstein, whose work ought to be praised and not denigrated. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 00:03, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
There seems to be a lot differing opinions about whether notifying/warning an editor about discretionary sanctions is really a warning or just a simple notification. Some editors believe that it's simply a notification. Other editors believe that it is a warning after some alleged misconduct. IIRC, I've been told by at least one admin that a warning/notification (whichever it is) is best given by an uninvolved admin who patrols the topic space. I don't know what the correct answers to these questions to these questions are, but I do know that different editors/admins answer them in different ways. It would be nice, and probably best done separately from the current dispute here, for us to reach consensus on these questions. Thanks. A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 02:32, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
According to WP:AC/DS,
“ | Warnings should be clear and unambiguous, link to the decision authorising the sanctions, identify misconduct and advise how the editor may mend their ways | ” |
Can the Committee please confirm (or reject):
Also, can the committee clarify who should make such warnings/notifications? Can only admins do this? Or can regular editors do this? Does it matter whether the admin or the editor is involved or uninvolved in the dispute?
There seems to be many differing opinions on each of these questions. Can the Committee please provide clarification? If the Committee would prefer that such clarifications be separate from the current request, I can file a separate Request for Clarification. Thanks. A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 02:12, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
The original enforcement request concerning Drg55 was lodged by Prioryman. One of the recent diffs presented there [19] questioned whether, like MartinPoulter, Prioryman was, "an unreconstructed neo fascist participant from alt.religion.scientology". Drg55 further stated, "our critics are generally insane" and "I personally exposed quite a few attackers of Scientology with weapon of truth, and truth does defeat lies." It was on the basis of edits like that that Drg55 was indefinitely topic banned from all edits relating to Scientology or religion in general. Drg55's appeal was rejected, because of the non-neutral nature of his edits, as EdJohnston commented. During that appeal Drg55 again made comments discussing Prioryman's activities off-wikipedia. He did so repeatedly even after receiving warnings, the first of which was from Future Perfect at Sunrise. [20] That resulted in Sandstein's indefinite block. The objections to the block did not address in any way the problems with Drg55's editing. Instead there were wikilawyering edits suggesting that the identification could be deduced from "join-the-dots" sleuthing on wiki. However, Drg55's comments about both MartinPoulter and Prioryman were unambiguously attacks on and harassment of both editors. The wikilawyering about outing on public noticeboards has had the unfortunate and probably unintentional effect of continuing possible harassment. The two logged notifications of WP:ARBSCI seem fairly standard in the circumstances. Effectively that advice was ignored and the disruption initiated by Drg55 has continued. The extensive catalogue of criticisms of Sandstein by Peter cohen on this page seems completely disproportionate to the logged notification or warning. Mathsci ( talk) 05:04, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
It seems that most arbitrators commenting below have missed the fact that whereas Peter Cohen was "only" warned, in the The Devil's Advocate case, the warning was followed by an actual sanction imposed. I think that there is only an academic distinction between an admin officially AE-warning an editor not to do something and officially AE-sanctioning him with a ban prohibiting said editor from doing said something. Sandstein's warnings were not mere notifications of the existence of some Arbitration case. Both editors warned were already aware of that, and Sandstein was aware that they were aware. The two editors were in fact sanctioned for being too aware of some content of that Arbitration. Downplaying the obvious stifling intent with which Sandstein placed the two warnings and the one topic ban he subsequently issued to TDA as a mere notification shows the vast chasm between how this is perceived by the editor-peons and the lofty admins/arbs on this page and at ANI. And people wonder why most editors see admins as an unaccountable Old Boys' club... By the way, Arbcom has yet to address Sandstein's subsequent "Request for preventative measures" made on this very page, in which he asks that the Scientology Arbitration case be redacted so that certain editors may be no longer be "outed" by linking to it. Someone not using his real name ( talk) 07:38, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
I would like to second A Quest for Knowledge's request for clarification for when and how DS notices/warnings are to be given, and express hope that will be in the policy that Salvio refers to below. As presently stated, step number 4 of the DS process states, "4. Warnings should be clear and unambiguous, link to the decision authorising the sanctions, identify misconduct and advise how the editor may mend their ways". That formulation is unclear as to whether actual misconduct is needed before the warning can be given or whether it is possible to give it (a) merely because an editor is either merely editing in the area to which DS apply or (b) because the editor is engaging in conduct which is questionable, but which is not clearly misconduct (e.g. a very slow motion edit war consisting of clearly revert–y edits stretched over days or weeks or conduct which is viciously curt and abrupt but short of being clear incivility). I fall on the side that they ought to be able to be given merely as notices. If these areas are important enough to establish DS's for, then these warnings ought to be no more than statements that, in effect, "We're not saying that you're doing anything wrong for sure, but your behavior has caught our eye and we want you to know what you have at stake." The alternative would be to establish that a notice must be given first, perhaps by templating the article talk page (as far as I know, the talk page templates currently have no actionable effect), then make the current individual-editor templates last-chance type warnings per se once that notice has been in place for a period of time. Regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 16:38, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
Though this is not directly relevant to the Scientology case, I concur with TransporterMan above that we need some sort of clarity on the process of notifying an editor about discretionary sanctions in a topic area. In particular, arbs need to clarify:
My personal inclination is to treat these notifications as purely informational in nature and editors who edit in a sanctioned area should be notified of the existence of these sanctions by any editor. That way, it is clear to an uninvolved admin that an editor knows about the sanctions and we won't need to get into extended discussions of the sort we're seeing here - i.e., when someone's behavior is wrong enough for sanctions to be issued. Clear and unequivocal guidance from arbitrators is, I think, essential. -- regentspark ( comment) 15:52, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
In terms of making people aware of discretionary sanctions, I think there needs to be a distinction made between "notice", "general (or friendly) warning" and "specific (or formal) warning".
Sanctions must be preceded by one or more of the above or other evidence of awareness of the existence of discretionary sanctions (e.g. active participation in the arbcom case or community discussion that authorised them, leaving a warning for another user, etc), except in the case of gross or wilful disruption.
What level of notice/warning has been left before, how long ago it was and the nature of the disruption should be taken into consideration when deciding whether to sanction or futher warn. If a user has only received one notice, it was a long time ago and they haven;t been active in the topic area recently another notice would probably be appropriate for minor issues. However for gross disruption very shortly after receiving a notice sanctions without further warning are probably justified. Users should not get more than one specific warning about the same actions/specific area unless they are separated by at least several months with no sanctions and little to no editing in the topic area between - the warning hasn't worked and sanctions are needed. Similarly a user shouldn't normally be getting more than two or three at absolute most general warnings before sanctions.
Thryduulf (
talk)
15:06, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
I almost never comment on these matters. But it seems the trend of some views expressed here are so contrary to what I regard as a community-based way of doing things that I must say something.
I think I am in all this essentially agreeing with Dennis, though I may be stating it even more strongly than he would endorse. DGG ( talk ) 00:43, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
I am largely in agreement with DGG's analysis of the situation, but I wish to add one note. Well, two notes actually.
Admins are not supposed to be exalted users beyond the judgement of more mortal editors, but that's the crux of what happened here: two ordinary editors were threatened for questioning Sandstein's judgement in an issue. It's one thing to refuse to reconsider, though I think that to do so as a matter of course demonstrates an unbecoming and disruptive arrogance. But be that as it may, neither response outed anyone, whether or not one thinks that Prioryman's identity is public knowledge. It's abundantly clear that there is a considerable difference of opinion as to that last issue, so it's hard for me to take seriously the need for discipline in raising it as an issue. But it is quite clear to me that the function of ARBSCI in this is abusive, perhaps inadvertently so, but nonetheless disruptive. It seems that Prioryman has become a protected person because it is alleged somewhere that he has some connection to public critique/defense of Scientology, and therefore any discussion of him can be slapped down with AE even if Scientology itself doesn't figure in the dispute at hand; and furthermore, if anyone complains about how some admin has handled such a dispute, the complainants can be summarily disciplined by that admin. Heck, if I wanted to cultivate the same protection, I could publish some anti-Scientology tracts off-wiki, let slip that I authored them (without even really revealing my true name), and then cultivate some admin to defend me.
And in the end I feel that I shouldn't have to go through this elaborate an analysis. Allowing admins to discipline people simply for disagreeing with them has such an obvious potential for abuse that it should be forbidden absolutely. ARBSCI has nothing to do with that. Mangoe ( talk) 14:24, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
Furthermore, Sandstein, in my opinion, your approach to discretionary sanctions is way too legalistic. Our decisions are not legal documents and cannot be interpreted using the same construction rules a lawyer would use to interpret an act of Parliament: as far as I'm concerned, I expect people to interpret and enforce our decisions using commonsense, never forgetting that IAR is one of the five pillars. Not to mention that discretionary sanctions are always "authorised" and never made compulsory, which means that an administrator should use his discretion to determine whether the imposition of restrictions is the best way to stop the disruption an editor is causing; if not, then nobody is obliged or expected to impose a discretionary sanction.
Also, I believe that the sanction you imposed on The Devil's Advocate was not warranted and, what's more, I'm not sure it was validly imposed (I'm not sure questioning a sanction you've imposed can be considered making edits about a topic, not even using a very broad construction of the clause).
Finally, and I know I disagree with my colleagues here, since the link between Prioryman and ChrisO has been disclosed many times on wiki, including by ArbCom, to say that the two accounts are the same person is not outing. Moreover, *in my opinion*, not even saying what the "O" stands for is outing because it was indirectly acknowledged by the subject and was the basis of an ArbCom's finding of fact. Again only in my opinion, WP:OUTING only protects those who try to protect their identity: no policy on Wikipedia demands that editors play dumb... Referring to Prioryman's name may be harassment, when done maliciously, with the sole intent of causing him distress, but that's the exception, not the other way around. Salvio Let's talk about it! 09:27, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
@ Newyorkbrad: which may not be the Committee's, is that a warning may be brought up for review but only where it was clearly undeserved and inappropriate., almost every warned editor thinks the warning was clearly undeserved; your limit would be pretty much useless and would require us to waste our time all the same, even if only to make sure that the warning in question was appropriate and deserved. I don't think that's a productive use of our limited resources. Salvio Let's talk about it! 21:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
@ A Quest For Knowledge: & @ TransporterMan: yes, those aspects (and others) will be clarified hoperfully soon. Salvio Let's talk about it! 09:35, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
1. Back in the day, the editor's real life identity was common knowledge within the Scientology topic. He regularly linked to sites mentioning it and acquiesced when it was used on-wiki. At that time though, the applicable policies were not as they are today and current policies acknowledge an individual's wish for a degree of personal privacy. It follows, therefore, that while referring to him by his real name is not outing, such references may well be intended to have a chilling effect or to cause discomfort.
2. In my view, it's overreach to use discretionary sanctions for matters which are only coincidentally related to the topic and which can be dealt with satisfactorily underr existing policy. I haven't looked at this situation closely enough to see whether that is the case here.
3. Discretionary sanctions are intended to provide fast track remedies to contain disruption arising from dysfunctional conduct in relation to the topic. They do this by sidestepping the usual community dispute resolution processes. Because they give administrators greater powers, and limit appeal options, they should be applied conservatively.
Otherwise, I agree entirely with Salvio's point. Someone can no more be unnotified than they can take back a sneeze. Roger Davies talk 17:31, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Francis Schonken at 20:16, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
First proposal: retracted, obsolete -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 08:25, 29 May 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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Subject was referred to Talk:Rick Ross (consultant) by OTRS. In order to proceed it should be best that the situation resulting from the 2009 Scientology case is cleared. See Talk:Rick Ross (consultant)#Discussion. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 20:16, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
Note that my only stake in this is dealing with WP:BLP issues under WP:COI conditions (not my COI, the COI of Ross/173.72.57.223), without my current actions risking to be ultimately invalidated for a technical reason related to a past arbcom case. I think ArbCom can do something to avoid such risk. Some creativity may be needed, my creative proposal to amend the Scientology case is only one among several possibilities to iron this out. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 11:23, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
Follow-up on Remedy 26: User:Rick A. Ross has come forward to the Arbitration Committee, which makes "... User:Rick A. Ross, indefinitely blocked and redirected ..." unactionable as an enforcement action of the Scientology case as long as the editor edits with a single account.
I was instructed by Matthew at the Wikipedia Support Team to go to my bio page and use the Talk Page to discuss problems there. My name is Rick Alan Ross and some years ago I may have entered the name Rick A. Ross on Wikipedia. I have never gone by the name Rick Allen Ross. I have no general interest in Wikipedia other than the bio about me at Wikipedia (Rick Ross consultant). My concern is that my bio has been used as a convenient propaganda platform for those who don't like my work to attack me. My bio is not NPOV and has a great deal of biased POV editing. That editing is often misleading, intentionally omits certain relevant historical facts and information and generally reflects the slanted POV of certain anonymous editors at Wikipedia. I have repeatedly complained about this matter to the Wikipedia Support Team. Again, Matthew recommended that I specifically explain this at my bio Talk Page. I have followed his directions and posted my points of concern with supporting references and sources at the Talk Page per Mathew's instuctions. Now I am somehow here. Excuse me, but I don't understand all the Wikipedia protocols and rules. Please explain what need to be done to resolve this and address my concerns.
Rick Alan Ross 173.72.57.223 ( talk) 16:32, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
As the user involved with the OTRS ticket, let me clarify something here. As the original user has effectively outed themselves, from what I have seen, this appears to be genuine. They do not have access to either of the accounts, or the email addresses used to create them, and their passwords no longer work. I fail to see how this is an unreasonable amendment - they could always make a new account if needed. As they are unfamiliar with Wikipedia, we should, IMO, be a tad more cautious, and the seeming bad knowledge may well be genuine. Mdann52 ( talk) 20:47, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
A BLP subject wants to provide input into the content of the article about himself, which he thinks has issues of balance and weighting. (I agree that the article has issues, although this isn't the place to go into them; I am also less than certain that this article should exist at all.) He seeks to adhere to our guidance about COI editing, which urges article subjects to disclose their identity and confine themselves to the talkpage, but is being tripped up because he is not an experienced Wikipedian and does not understand the fine points of our decision in this case from six years ago. My impression is that Mdann52 is correct and that the editor does not have access to his vintage-2008 accounts, perhaps because he does not recall the passwords, perhaps for some other reason. My suggestion is that an arbitrator reach out to Rick Ross directly, confirm his identity (if not already done), and explain exactly what is required of him. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 20:55, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm very familiar with the standard OTRS advice to BLP subjects - if memory serves, I assembled the boilerplate myself - and this request is precisely in line with it. I don't think we need to amend anything, we can just WP:IAR since it is obvious who is behind the IP and there is no attempt at deception (quite the opposite). Guy ( Help!) 09:29, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
It would seem trivial for OTRS to create a new account with a suitable name, in the normal way, and pass the details onto Mr Ross. Job Done? All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough, 20:11, 31 May 2015 (UTC).
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Elvey at 01:45, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
No user accounts to notify. IPs are ephemeral.
The ruling states in relevant part (bolding mine):
8) Any current or future editor who, after this decision is announced, makes substantial edits to any Scientology-related articles or discussions on any page is directed:
Despite this, edits to an article under discretionary sanctions as part of this case (and its talk page) are being made largely from a half dozen or so IPs, and the IPs are all on the same UK mobile ISP (except for one from a UK fixed line ISP) per an admin.
Clarification requested on this point : I read the ruling as saying editing needs to be from a single user account, not multiple anonymous IPs. Is it thus proper at this point to file for AE? (Why or why not?)
I think it is but am being cautious. It seems to me the appropriate enforcement action is simply to apply semi protection to the two pages. No need to deal with individual IPs. Support would be diffs from the page histories, though the page histories themselves are very readable for this purpose. There's a DS notice at the top of the talk page.
I'm refraining from characterizing the nature or motivation of edits or person(s); you are strongly urged do the same, so this can remain succinct and be dispatched quickly.
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Original discussion Initiated by Sfarney at 20:19, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
On June 1, 2016, I was Topic Banned from Scientology for one year on the authority of ARBSCI, Clause 5.1 (WP:SPA). [23] [24] The Wordsmith imposed the ban. Though the ban cited ArbCom authority, Wordsmith agrees the foundation for that authority is incorrect. Additionally, Wordsmith concealed a personal conflict of interest on the topic and should not have administered the AE.
I respectfully ask this Committee to cancel or modify the topic ban.
1. Wordsmith agreed my account is not an SPA and struck that language from the ban. [28] [29] When that justification was removed, ArbCom authority was removed, but Wordsmith maintains the topic ban. [30]
2. Sanction was based on evidence that later proved false -- the ban was significantly based on nonpublic information.
A significant portion of the ban rationale rests on nonpublic evidence that I have privately communicated to the Arbitration Committee, and consulted an Arb confidentially with the evidence before doing anything. In fact I had forgotten about Remedy 5.1; the Arbitrator I asked for advice suggested doing that ... [31]
Later, Wordsmith admitted the nonpublic evidence was not true. [32]
3. Wordsmith's ban was a do-over sanction. In the May 26 AE against Prioryman, Wordsmith wrote, "This request seems ripe for a Boomerang … at a minimum an admonishment to the filing editor." [33] Dennis Brown refused to admonish me and filed only an advisement. That action drew an effective line -- the conduct at issue was addressed by admin sanction. [34]
A week later (June 1), Wordsmith reached into the same timespan for evidence and imposed the topic ban, modifying the sanction imposed by Brown. Brown protested that his advisement was already in place.
Some of this is a little bit old. If this had happened after I gave my warning the other day, I would topic ban or block on the spot, but I did give a fairly detailed warning less than a week ago, so behavior since then is my primary focus. Not sure that to do here, would like to hear what other admins think. [35]
Thus, Wordsmith's sanction contradicts Modification by Administrators, [36] but Brown agreed to the modification because: "I trust The Wordsmith when they say they have private information that amply justified the action." [37]
When Wordsmith later admitted the "information" was false, the modification policy implicitly required Wordsmith to notify Brown of the error, and either drop the topic ban or seek permission again to modify Brown's sanction. But Wordsmith did not, and the anomaly was transformed from error to deceit.
4. Wordsmith had personal interest (not Wikipedia interest) in the ban. Editor Prioryman brought the complaint to AE and canvassed Wordsmith to preside. [38] Prioryman is the name-changed admin ChrisO, [39], involved and sanctioned in the ARBSCI. [40] [41] An arbitrator selected by one party in a dispute is not appropriate or neutral, and selection of Wordsmith was not random. Wordsmith is personally and deeply involved with Scientology as a leader/organizer of the anti-Scientology group, Project Chanology.
Wordsmith provides the evidence on Wikipedia pages:
POSSIBLE COI DISCLOSURE: I own the Boston Anonymous forums and am a sysop, crat, checkuser and oversight on their wiki. Take anything I have to say with a grain of salt, and always verify for yourselves. Firestorm Talk 16:18, 21 May 2009 (UTC) [45]
The word " crat" commonly means "bureaucrat", i.e., a manager, ruler. [46] [47] The statement is signed by Firestorm, who was later renamed Wordsmith. [48] See also the header: [49]
The virulent partisanship of Anonymous/Chanology is told in the group's 2008 founding manifesto video, which promised to destroy and "systematically dismantle" the Church of Scientology. [50] See transcript. [51]
An owner/leader/organizer of a group sworn to promote or destroy the subject cannot neutrally administer the article(s) or involved editors. It is a clear COI. When I suggested Wordsmith had a COI, Wordsmith evasively denied he has a COI because he is "not a Scientologist":
Firstly personal experience is not relevant to WP:INVOLVED, but I will state for the record that I am not a Scientologist, have never been a Scientologist, and none of my family or close friends are Scientologists. I merely take an active interest in their history, policies and doctrine to consider myself a subject-matter expert, which is why I made that comment on the first AE. [52]
The statement changes from evasion to deceit with these words: "I merely take an active interest ..." In addition to owner/leader/manager/crat of the Chanology forum, Wordsmith was apparently theorist and ideologue of Chanology:
It is safe to say that I'm probably the most well-versed Wikipedian on the topic of Scientology, moreso than most actual Scientologists. [53]
5. Supplementary info: Another editor has submitted a letter to ArbCom with supplementary evidence on this and related matters. I have forwarded that letter to ArbCom as well to ensure it is linked to this case.
I respectfully ask for the Arb who recommended the ban
[54] to recuse from this appeal.
As shown above, the ban was imposed without reason, authority, or justification. It was based on a false issue and false evidence, and administered by an admin who had a significant hidden COI on the topic. I ask for the ban to be cancelled.
Because of multiple secondary sources don't cover it, it probably is misunderstood by the editor or simply not true. Feoffer added an image that he took from some German blog with unknown authenticity. I had it removed with an ANI request under the WP:COPYVIO rule because I could not persuade the TEAM that the authenticity could not be verified and was a real problem.Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources.[12] Red flags that should prompt extra caution include:
(x) surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources;
(x) challenged claims that are supported purely by primary or self-published sources or those with an apparent conflict of interest;
(x) reports of a statement by someone that seems out of character, or against an interest they had previously defended;
(x) claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community, or that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions, especially in science, medicine, history, politics, and biographies of living people. This is especially true when proponents say there is a conspiracy to silence them.
Final Address to the Arbitration Committee: It looks now as though you will ban me to keep me silent on these issues. I remind you of Caesar's advice to judges:
When you judge fairly and according to the law, you bring honor to yourselves, you strengthen the law, and you bring peace to the land. But when you judge unfairly, when you favor yourselves and your friends, you bring contempt on yourselves and you erode the law; and ultimately, you destroy the society you were hired to govern.
In this proceeding, you were shown a number of outrages against Wikipedia:
If the Arbitration Committee members decide they will do nothing about any of this except punish me for "significant disruption" of this operation, if they so publicly practice selective enforcement of Wikipedia policies, they will bring contempt on Arbcom from the editors in Wikipedia-ville, damage the reputation of Wikipedia with the public, and chart (or are they continuing along?) a course of corruption from which Wikipedia might never recover.
It is a choice you should consider carefully. Grammar's Li'l Helper Talk 07:34, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
Please note that the unacceptable sourcing is "going on a lot here." That is the same objection I have been voicing since April -- and notably, one of the same editing violations for which Prioryman (aka ChrisO) was sanctioned in 2009. And note also, the reviewer's criticism is followed by yet another WP:IDHT from DamOTclese, asserting that "dozens" of editors (some of whom he personally canvassed [80]) liked the article. Perhaps the Committee will take a new look at this situation wherein my real, factual, Wiki-policy objections are being sanctioned with a topic-ban and characterized as a "significant disruption", while the same WP:TEAM of editors cannot understand the problem. Who should be editing Wikipedia? Grammar's Li'l Helper Talk 22:29, 16 August 2016 (UTC)More seriously, a lot of the sourcing here isn't in keeping with what Wikipedia requires. Whereas an academic study of a subject can use and cite primary sources (original lectures, a promotional video etc), Wikipedia can't. Wikipedia has to rely largely on secondary and tertiary sources. So, if we have an academic publication saying "In a 1961 lecture, he said" then we can cite that academic, secondary source. What we can't really do is cite an (unpublished) original source, but that's what is going on a lot here. Midnightblueowl ( talk) 16:19, 9 August 2016 (UTC) [79]
There are a number of factual errors and misrepresentations above. However, I will acknowledge that I was involved with a local group affiliated with Project Chanology, in a minor capacity running their internal wiki (as I was the only one familiar with MediaWiki software) for a few months from 2008 to 2009. I must commend Sfarney, as he keeps better track of my own past than I do. The site (and indeed, the entire movement) had been defunct for years. I hadn't mentioned it because it was so long ago and my role so minor that I had forgotten about it. Does minor participation in an activist group 7-8 years ago open up issues of WP:INVOLVED? I'll leave that to the Arbitrators to decide, and will respect that decision.
However, I do still believe that my topic ban was based on sound judgment and not bias. Consensus at AE and again at the noticeboard agreed with it. Sfarney's hostility and poor behavior in both instances further reinforced that belief. I stand by my sanction, and I do believe that the community has already heard this appeal and upheld it on the merits. I don't see what another bite at the apple is gong to achieve, but I welcome input. The Wordsmith Talk to me 01:05, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
Sfarney is doing an excellent imitation of a squid, blowing out clouds of black ink to hide the real issue at hand here: did the evidence of misconduct in the original AE request merit a topic ban? He doesn't address his own conduct above in any way other than to deny that anyone has ever found fault with it ("No one can say that I have broken any of the canons of Wikipedia"), which is obviously ludicrous in the light of the multiple critical threads he has attracted on his talk page regarding a variety of topics and his previous topic ban from Rick Alan Ross. If the topic ban was justified - and it clearly was - then everything else is moot and mere tendentious wikilawyering of the kind which those who have interacted with him have sadly become accustomed to. Prioryman ( talk) 11:58, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
I don't expect to comment further unless this account is pinged by an arb. I doubt it will be needed.
This is all moot. The community upheld the ban, any cause of action has to be about that WP:AN confirmation, where the community essentially took possession of the ban. Unless you can show fault in that discussion, there is nothing to talk about. Speaking as someone who tried DESPERATELY to not topic ban you, who choose an admonition the first time you were brought to AE, and has watched you implode since then, I suggest simply waiting the ban out. The community upheld the ban. That the process was sloppy doesn't really matter, we aren't a bureaucracy. Farmer Brown ( talk) (aka:Dennis Brown) 21:41, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
I have to bring up Robert McClenon's statement given here that "continuing to appeal is vexatious litigation." Yes, editors should be allowed to appeal bans but the community is also allowed to affirm those bans and should not have to continually answer "yes, one year is still one year" every few weeks in a different spot each time. Standard discretionary sanctions have been allowed since 2012, the ban was converted to that, and uninvolved community consensus affirms that ban. To try to appeal on a technicality that has already been ironed over is nothing but Wiki-lawyering. Honestly, at this point, the only room I'm seeing between modifying the ban (which I can't see happening) and blocking Sfarney is Sfarney withdrawing this ASAP. Ian.thomson ( talk) 21:03, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
I'm not sure why I keep getting dragged in to comment on this difficult editor, this should be a no-brainer. When Wikipedia has problem Scientology editors, one either (1) Topic bans the editor/sock or (2) blocks their IP addresses. When there is extensive WP:IDHT and WP:NH and the same issues which have repeatedly been resolved keep getting dredged-up over and over again, we have procedures for a final resolution to the problem editors which do that, and in editor Sfarney's case, a topic ban is the obvious solution, and any appeal should be dismissed.
At the same time we must not discourage volunteer editors from donating their time and effort to Wikipedia to improve articles, so editors and admins need to work hard to convince problem editors that they must stop being problems while also asking them to "move on" and find more productive use of their volunteer time. Editor time has value, we don't want to lose editors that contribute beneficially!
Also editors and admins who look at problem editors' behavior also need to understand Scientology's history and contentious behavior to some degree inasmuch as if they want to expend some time understanding the motivations of Scientology-based problem editors, looking up "Dev-T" (Develop Traffic) and Scientology's written procedures on "Outproducing" sources of factual, informative, testable, falsifiable information on Scientology -- which Wikipedia certainly is -- helps understand some of the WP:IDHT and WP:NH behavior.
We need Sfarney to stay working on Wikipedia while at the same time we need him or her to stop wasting other editor's valuable time. We need to be polite and professional when imposing topic bans (after being polite and professional addressing editor's proposed text updates and issues) and if that does not work, we need account bans and/or IP bans, that's how we resolve things. If Sfarney does not understand why he was topic banned, that is a failing with other editors and admins not being able to convey why. That he's appealing his topic ban seems to indicate that we have failed to impart such understanding.
Don't remove the topic ban yet please, don't ban Sfarney. We need all the editors we can get here. Damotclese ( talk) 16:54, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Salvio, where precisely would be the bar? Because I am willing to lay money down that if an (otherwise perfectly respectable) admin was found to have been a scientologist and sanctioned someone in the scientology topic area, this would have been considered 'involved' and overturned within 5 minutes. I will paraphrase (slightly) my comment from the ANI: "I have a few books on cars. That wouldnt disqualify me from closing contentious discussions on cars. If I owned a series of extremely hard to get and in-depth documents (primary and secondary) on morris minors, declared I was the most knowledgeable wikipedian about morris minors AND had previously declared another editor was correct in their morris minor edits - I should not be closing any dispute (in my capacity as an administrator) related to said morris minors." If Sfarney is correct in his evidence of Wordsmith's previous associations with anti-scientology groups, I am not actually sure what would actually satisfy you regarding 'involved' in an off-wiki sense. Can you honestly say if the POV's were reversed, we would be here? Only in death does duty end ( talk) 17:16, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Sfarney's hostility and poor behavior are dominating his defense. Having worked with him in other area's where he has been extremely difficult and uncooperative I suggest, keep the full year or block him from editing as Slade Farney is not showing any sign of stopping tendentious editing in general. Earl King Jr. ( talk) 04:16, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
The question then becomes whether The Wordsmith was involved. Again, historically, when involvement has been argued on the basis of off-wiki conduct, the bar has ben set rather high, for various reasons, including a desire to prevent both opposition research and a chilling effect on admins. In this case, in my opinion, that high bar is far from reached.
For all these reasons, as far as I'm concerned, this appeal should be rejected. Salvio Let's talk about it! 16:55, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
I respectfully ask for the Arb who recommended the ban [81] to recuse from this appeal.I clarified earlier with The Wordsmith that he was referring to me in the linked comment, and I think also that there is some miscommunication surrounding that conversation. Wordsmith contacted me in May with concerns about Sfarney, and sent a few links. The conversation continued as follows (posted with Wordsmith's permission):
IRC log |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
31/05/16 10:58<[Wordsmith]> I'm not sure if that's conclusive enough for an indef, or if a regular admin should even be doing that rather than an Arbblock 31/05/16 10:59<[Wordsmith]> The editor's contribs show extensive pro-Scientology POV pushing 31/05/16 11:01<GorillaWarfare> The easiest option is probably to TBAN per r an indef, or if a regular admin should even be doing that rather than an Arbblock │10:59 <[Wordsmith]> The editor's contribs show extensive pro-Sc 31/05/16 11:01<GorillaWarfare> whoa 31/05/16 11:01<GorillaWarfare> bad paste 31/05/16 11:01<GorillaWarfare> TBAN per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Scientology#Single_purpose_accounts_with_agendas 31/05/16 11:01<GorillaWarfare> Assuming he fits those criteria 31/05/16 11:02<GorillaWarfare> But you could also send your evidence to ArbCom and we could look into a block/ban 31/05/16 11:02<[Wordsmith]> He's made some contributions to chemistry, but the bulk are Scientology-related 31/05/16 11:04<[Wordsmith]> I'm more than willing to ban under that SPA remedy and DS, I just won't mention the connection. I'll send the evidence to Arbcom, and if he appeals I'll put it on hold pending examinatin of private evidence 31/05/16 11:06<GorillaWarfare> Sounds good 31/05/16 11:06<[Wordsmith]> Thanks for the advice 31/05/16 11:07<GorillaWarfare> No problem :) |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by GeneralNotability at 22:07, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
I ask that ArbCom clarify whether remedy 2 of the Scientology case, " Church of Scientology IP addresses blocked", is still in effect. As far as I can tell, it is de facto not enforced - this quarry (credit to AntiCompositeNumber for the query) shows that there haven't been rangeblocks mentioning Scientology since 2010, with one individual IP block in 2011 (most were applied in 2009 following the case), and most of the blocks should have expired in 2014 since they were set for five-year durations. Further, the IP ranges assigned to the Church of Scientology have changed since the case; the church owns ASNs 7914 and 25823 (credit to wizzito for identifying the relevant ASNs) and none of the ranges owned by those ASNs are currently blocked. Blocking these IPs to enforce the remedy is trivial, but I believe ArbCom should consider whether this remedy is still necessary to prevent disruption. Given that the bans expired years ago but we have not seen significant disruption, I'm inclined to say that it is not (and that our normal community processes, like COIN, should be enough to contain disruption if it should resume in the future), but I've got no problem with applying the blocks if the Committee believes they are necessary. I just don't like being in this in-between state of "remedy is on the books but is not being enforced".
Actually, looking at the query linked, the last 2 IPs blocked for Scientology reasons were 216.60.18.40 (registered to the Bank of Oklahoma in Tulsa, Oklahoma; blocked 1 month in November 2018) and 138.130.234.8 (registered to Telstra Internet in Sydney, Australia; blocked 24 hours June 2018). 92.37.9.164 (registered to A1 in Ljubljana, Slovenia) was the last block mentioning this ArbCom decision. Neither of these are registered to Scientology. wizzito | say hello! 22:23, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
There are a bit more than this, but overall, my point is that this rule is outdated and these IPs barely edit or don't at all (at least anonymously, I'd 100 percent support a checkuser for some of these ranges) wizzito | say hello! 22:45, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
I've been an active watcher (and sometimes reverter) at the top level Scientology article. I think that there is still some more wiki-saavy efforts by them there but the old IP protection is probably not needed or relevant. Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 23:02, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Remedy 2 of the Scientology arbitration case, "Church of Scientology IP addresses blocked", is hereby rescinded. Any remaining blocks currently in force may be lifted or appealed according to the unblocking policy.
Enacted - firefly ( t · c ) 11:30, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Remedy 4.1 of the Scientology case ("Discretionary sanctions authorised") is rescinded. Any actions previously taken in accordance with the discretionary sanctions authorization remain in force and are governed by the discretionary sanctions procedure.
For this motion there are 14 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 8 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Enacted - GeneralNotability ( talk) 00:04, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
This ArbCom turned out to the most damaging act ever done by a WP group. Damaging for the Wikipedia project, because lies were first allowed, then pushed and forwarded, and finally cemented in a bogus "decision" to ban a whole group of people based solely on their religious beliefs. So, who's next? Shutterbug ( talk) 04:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
I witnessed this blossoming dispute, and feel that arbitration is inevitable. Better to hear the matter now before disruption becomes more widespread. The threads at WP:AE look like miniature arbitration cases. That board is ill-suited to dealing with such complexity. Jehochman Talk 18:45, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
I was reading this on WP:AE yesterday and felt the best outcome was to close it as "interesting, but sparse on anything actionable." The outstanding SSP and CU requests need to be completed, and the content problems need to go back to their respective talk pages.
The content dispute has been blown way out of proportion. For context, the majority of the concerns on WP:AE are regarding " Scientology and sex", a sub-article that focuses on one aspect of Scientology, and that article recently sent to AFD by user:Justallofthem; it was closed as "keep" on November 30 (basicly a WP:SNOW). In this light, adding reported issues about sex is to be expected, and it should be expected that it will go into controversies that have arisen over time. Those who prefer that we didnt have an article about this topic are going to need to accept the community disagrees strongly. Obviously the article needs to comply with all our policies, and some of Cirts additions are questionable, but the new material was removed, and has not been restored. It is a content dispute, and a minor one at that. If the two sides are unable to find compromise, they should request a WP:3O on specific issues, file a RFC or seek mediation (When I read the AE board last night, I thought Durova had offered mediation??).
fwiw, after reading the AE thread, I started to get involved to help restore stability. [1] [2]
If there are wider issues to do with the actions of user:Cirt, a credible description of the problem needs to be compiled and taken to WP:RFC/U because there is nothing provided here now, nor was there any provided at WP:AE. John Vandenberg ( chat) 00:10, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
I will openly admit that Scientology may have originally drawn me to Wikipedia as a motivation to edit; in parsing the main article I found many things that I took issue with from an editorial standpoint. That being said, I am moving into some other areas of interest as well. So I ask anyone that believes that my account to be single-purposed to consider my contributions outside of Scientology-related pages.
As being discussed by the editors working on the page at the time I first arrived, one significant problem with the Scientology page was its prominent use of primary sources. So being a fairly compulsive editor, I systematically rearranged the page in an intuitive attempt to improve it, removing secondary sources along the way. The quality of Scientology-related pages for the most part seems to have been compromised with the use of primary sources, which was an issue that I was working on (and still do, on a more limited basis). It must be noted, however, that promoting the use of secondary sources in the place of primary ones does not constitute a violation of WP:NPOV or WP:RS; quite to the contrary.
Now judging by the amount of effort that all of the involved editors put into WP:SCN, it sometimes becomes aggravating and counter-productive to deal with the unreasonable opposition we encounter. What we are dealing with here is not a persecution of editors due to their faith, but a situation where all available evidence suggests that individual editors closely connected with the Church of Scientology are attempting to cast it in a positive light. This is no different than employees of Microsoft editing the Windows Vista article.
As for the arbitration and eventual resolution of this matter, I ask that Arbitrators consider any prior evidence in addition to the actions taken by the parties in question which proceeded the original Arbitration ruling. Two particular edits are of interest: one from Dec 9, 2008 by 205.227.165.151 ( talk) and the other occurring on May 9, 2007 by 205.227.165.244 ( talk) (resolves to ws.churchofscientology.org). Both IPs are within the same class C range, which is owned by the Church of Scientology International. Historically, four more known Scientology-owned IPs performed edits almost entirely limited to Scientology-related pages, see 205.227.165.14 ( talk • whois), 205.227.165.11 ( talk • whois), 63.199.209.133 ( talk • whois), and 63.199.209.131 ( talk • whois). During January 2008, Misou (a confirmed sockpuppet on Wikipedia) was found by a checkuser on Wikinews to be using open proxies as well as IPs controlled by the Church of Scientology (Misou was subsequently banned). As recently as Oct 21, 2008, Shutterbug was banned from Wikinews for "disruptive behavior" and "Block evasion via proxies".
To conclude, I'd like to quote here a few points which were first illustrated by myself in the WP:AE thread: "Let the records show that it was found that there was indeed overlapping ip address usage belonging to a specific group of editors appearing to have a conflict of interest, who acted towards pushing a particular pov. Since those findings were announced, the pov-pushing ( 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10), assumption of bad faith, ( 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18), and removal of reliable sources ( 19, 20, 21) has continued."
To echo what GoodDamon ( talk · contribs) said, SPA accounts are never truly an issue unless a COI is apparent. I make every effort possible to present my changes in a neutral way. If you believe that I am not doing so, please show me diffs which you believe to be indicative of a bias. Also, the claim that I reverted any of your edits on Dianetics is false. Furthermore, you falsely claimed that the source you removed was previously added by me, which I refuted on the talk page. ← Spidern → 06:53, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps I'm jumping the gun a little with presenting the evidence, it was intended to illustrate that arbitration action is clearly needed here. But I would also argue that the Misou case on Wikinews is every bit as relevant here, considering that we're dealing with the behavior of a user named as a party in this RFAR. ← Spidern → 18:06, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
What I have seen here are reports of sock puppetry, of role accounts, of biased editing, and of people yelling at each other because "the other guy" is wrong. Which is to be expected, as the subject at hand makes a perfect drama sandwich. I like my sandwiches to have fresh mozzarella.
This is a matter of editors being able to control themselves in the name of academia. I am not blaming anyone for being non-neutral, nor for being uncivil. Both things are perfectly human, but that does not make incivility and biased editing appropriate behavior for Wikipedia. That is what makes Wikipedia editing so hard. Those who have been accused/convicted of biased editing should admit to their faults and work extra hard to write in the "they're an organization that has done stuff" style; even those who think they are perfectly neutral should work extra-hard anyway, only because this is such a heated subject. I know I probably couldn't write neutrally on the matter of Scientology if I tried.
Which is what makes civil, cooperative behavior so important. Those who have seen me on IRC know that I put my feet in my mouth on a frequent occasion. That makes me an anti-example on how editors should behave while disputing encyclopedia content. (To be fair, I try to be on my best behavior when making a case for something on Wikipedia). I am calling on involved editors to take it seriously, but not personally, when accused of non-neutral editing. If you have reacted poorly in the past, try in the present now to keep your anger from Wikipedia. Punch the wall if you have to. All editors must work cooperatively for the wellness of the article, even if they disagree. This is something I take very seriously, and the ArbCom should move towards restoring an editing environment conducive to scholarly collaboration.
Inevitably, people are not going to try, and they will continue down a path of arrogance and non-cooperation. Those people should be removed from editing, whether from Scientology topics or Wikipedia as a whole. It will be painful, but Wikipedia benefits not from people who sour the environment of academia.
May I also note that the resolutions from the COFS case are pretty weak. "Anynobody prohibited from harassing Justanother"? No kidding!
-- harej 03:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
I urge the ArbCom to take this case. It appears to be a residue from the COFS case last year. It shows the problem with using article probation as a remedy. The ArbCom gets complex cases with extensive evidence and spends weeks to months considering the factors. Then, instead of bringing the matter to a final resolution, it tosses them back to the community. Rather than a decision by a small, cohesive committee, a probation remedy turns the unresolved disputes over to the relatively chaotic WP:AE. There, admins have a few days or a week to look at relatively little evidence and make the difficult decisions that the ArbCom didn't make when it had the chance. A recent, messy case involving civility parole is another example of what happens when problems aren't solved and are allowed to smolder along.
In this case, the unresolved issue is how to deal with single purpose, POV pushing accounts, some of which may be acting in concert. The community has made efforts to deal with the issue with proposals like Wikipedia:Tag team and Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing. Now is a good time to find how these solutions can be brought to bear on the actual problems this project faces. Please, take the case and resolve it so it doesn't keep popping up again and again. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:20, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
OK, I've just been added (after three weeks) as an "added party of interest". What does that actually mean, precisely? Do I need to monitor these pages for changes mentioning me? Is there a handy guide to where in the thousands of kilobytes of subpages the bits about me will actually be?
Suggestion: you give added "parties of interest" more of a pointer on their talk page as to what the "interest" actually is - David Gerard ( talk) 23:00, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Much as I like Captain Louis Renault, it's hardly appropriate here. It came to my attention only very recently that many of the people listed as "Internet activists" on {{ Scientology and the Internet}} are actively editing Scientology articles. More generally, I have been unable to find any correspondence from ArbCom in the archives promising people with unresolvable conflicts of interest amnesty or immunity. Roger Davies talk 01:25, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
(od) Whatever the original tactic was, it hasn't worked. Despite four arbitrations in four years, the topic is a battlefield and is likely to remain forever one unless drastic steps (with or without headbumping) are taken. Clearly, we need to deal effectively with Scientologists who come here to push their POV but we need equally to rein in the critics/sceptics who are actively promoting an opposing stance. The two factions feed off each other, prolong the agony, and foster further factionalism. The overall objective here is not to create a broadly hostile landscape, were sources or synthesis or original research is either accepted or rejected depending on the POV it supports, but one where this controversial subject can be treated neutrally and dispassionately. That is what Wikipedia policy is all about. Roger Davies talk 10:28, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
I posted the following statement on the main page before noticing this discussion here. I'm not sure where it's more appropriate. After reading David's comments above, I have to agree it looks kind of weird to add a whole bunch of people this late in the case. (Not that I know very much about arbitration, just that it sounds like
scope creep.)
Looking over the sub-pages, the only mention of me I can find is one from *2005* where I pointed out some apparent sock-puppeting at the time between IP address editors. Just what am I supposed to be looking at? -- FOo ( talk) 08:39, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Looks like a large number of contributors were added to this never-ending case just last week, including me. I'm not entirely sure if that's necessary. I don't consider myself a major contributor to the Scientology-related articles, though it's a topic I visit from time to time. I've stayed far away from edit-warring with the Church's sock puppets, but I guess I'm supposed to say something here anyhow.
I don't have a lot to contribute here, though: having looked over the various materials brought up in this case, it seems to me that the conduct of the sock crew is so blatant, and its continuity with Scientology's history of trying to shut down honest reporting about itself is so evident, that anyone who seriously considers the situation will come to a reasonable conclusion. -- FOo ( talk) 03:51, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
There is no indication on the main page whether this particular RFA first passed through any mediation process (with links if so) or due to the reoccurring nature of the problem, passed straight to arbitration. It should be there so that interested parties can examine the process leading up to this. AndroidCat ( talk) 02:58, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
link Grundle2600 ( talk) 00:44, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
I spent a lot of time in the scientology article, I made attempts to include information from primary sources although unknowingly, yet I am not faceing a ban. I want to talk about why this is. When somebody tells you that what you are doing is wrong or in some way un befitting of the place in which you are doing it, its probably a good idea to listen to them. There was a lot of Scientology controlled or operated accounts used to alter, remove, distort or otherwise censore information about itself particularly information that is controversial. The removal of secondary sources in an effort to get an entire range of information invalidated is wrong. The abuse or intentional manipulation of the rules and regulations in order to further a personal or be it organization enforced goal is also wrong is unethical. I am confounded by the amount of people found guilty in this arbitration who have made comments to the effect of “what did I do wrong” or “this is discrimination/Religious hate/Intolerance/etc”. I am not sure if I fully agree with what Wikipedia has done but I can say I support it because I am unable to find any failure of logic or weakness of application of said logic anywhere in the arbitrations decision. I find flaws in everything, being autistic I use that to my advantage but I can not see anything wrong with banning scientology from the topic or even related topics. It would be no different if [Insert Group Name Here] started vandalizing its own and related thread all from the same set of ips belonging to it. The irony here is that scientology prides itself on being comprised of the most ethical people on the planet. What is ethical about defacing articles? The spokespersons of scientology are making the claim that this was done due to there being horribly inaccurate information on the page. Still today anybody that puts up a video on youtube or posts on a forum mentioning lord xenu, hubbard’s more outlandish lectures or anything about the slave camps they get a S&D letter from moxon or some other legal person on behalf of the “church”. Is there not a stark similarity Scientology attempting to censor or deface content about itself posted outside the boundries of a verified and sourced document and the actions of the church inside such boundries? I do not think that by function of how scientology thinks that they will ever be capable of following the rules here. I also urge that websites and organization in a ilk situation of this at Wikipedia should consider putting restrictions on scientology and its access to said site. Aaron Bongart ( talk) 14:20, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Could it be possible that it has something to do with the filter software all parishioners have to use? It could work as a proxy, sending information to the servers, allowing them to check whether material accessed is appropriate or inappropriate. It seems more likely than astroturfing to me. 92.0.138.3 ( talk) 15:11, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
I was topic banned in the recent second Scientology arbitration case, for stuff I did months before the first Scientology arbitration case which occurred in summer 2008.
There is something fundamentally wrong with banning me from this topic since not only was this "evidence" ignored in the first case but I also haven't violated the terms given from that case.
Accordingly, I'm uncertain what, exactly, this request is asking for. Put simply I'd like to continue editing any article I please. Banning someone from editing a topic should be a last resort, and since the arbcom didn't say I was pushing a POV in the first case I'd argue that we haven't quite reached the last resort. (If the arbcom ruled I was pushing a POV, and I continued to do the same thing, a ban would make sense. That isn't the case here.)
I totally understand that at first glance it might seem I had been ...been consistently pushing a specific point of view... Honestly though, the only POV I'm "pushing" is what's in the sources - every edit I made was as a result of what our best sources say. (Secondary sources like Time magazine and the LA Times, as well as primary sources like the US Navy.) The fact is these sources are unpopular with Scientologists and it took a great deal of time and effort to maintain them in most Scientology articles. You aren't saying I should just let editors with a positive view of Scientology remove info this easily sourced?
As regards mentioning my "harassment" of Justanother the point I am trying to make is that I disagree with the arbcom's first ruling which was affirmed in this case. Since he was banned by this arbcom for the same behavior I was trying to call attention to it is especially irritating that the same committee would affirm my attempts to solve this problem SOONER was harassment. Anynobody( ?) 01:34, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Gentlemen I've ALWAYS used ALL information from what we consider reliable sources. Articles about Scientology feature in depth coverage of its negative aspects. Are you saying we should ignore the bulk of what the sources say about a topic because some people don't like what it has to say? (For example a Time article called The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power obviously is going to say things Scientologists don't like, and might just make anyone citing it look anti-Scientology.)
If not, would you please explain how someone could use info like Time's, the LA Times, Wall Street Journal, or any of the other dozen or so reliable and non-biased sources without appearing to support the points in them? Anynobody( ?) 02:00, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that some of the editors banned, on both sides, haven't edited for quite some time. For example CSI LA last edited in 2007 and the same goes for Orsini Why are these two being topic banned after having escaped scrutiny (or even participation) in the first arbcom case AND not made an edit since 2007?
None of the graphics I made are meant to disparage anyone or anything and directly reflect the available sources. The image of DC-8s arriving on Earth for Xenu was meant to replace an already made illustration created by modifying a photo of NASA's DC-8 in space with the word Xenu on its tail.
Lastly, this arbitration reaffirmed that I previously harassed Justanother. I submit that the whole allegation if harassing Justanother (aka Justallofthem) stems from my attempt to get a WP:RFC/U going regarding his behavior. After the last arbitration I've not had any real contact with him, and he's been banned for the same type of behavior I was trying to call attention to in the first place. WP:HA#What harassment is not says A user warning for disruption or incivility is not harassment if the claims are presented civilly, made in good faith and attempt to resolve a dispute instead of escalating one. I've never called for him to be banned or demanded punishment, all I asked for was a RFC when it appeared he was having similar problems with several editors through giving the community an opportunity to comment. Anynobody( ?) 02:25, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Anynobody, this a cumulative decision based on all your "bad deeds". I am curious to see how the article develops without us. Let the clueless rule! Shutterbug ( talk) 01:22, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Either there's more to the case against Anynobody or there isn't. From only what's posted within the case pages, which isn't much, I don't know.
I looked at each "POV" diff (two) and each "disparaging" graphic (five). The diffs are fairly ordinary-looking edits, and would seem to be POV only if not reliably sourceable. The graphics are documentation of a type permitted as original research or describable primary sources. Two of the graphics would seem to be disparaging (by the editor) only if they weren't based on reliable sources. I don't know if they were or weren't based on reliable sources in the details, but in the current article, the LA Times seems to back the core issue that Anynobody was editing.
If these edits were based on reliable sources, then Anynobody must have done something notable within the article talk pages that merited the "POV" and "disparaging" charges. Did he? I don't know.
The fact-finding mentioned that prior arbitration determined that Anynobody harassed Justanother. I looked at that case, and it determined that Anynobody "complained to and of Justanother with great frequency and persistence". Well, now that Justa* has been banned from the entire project, one might reasonably conclude that Justa* was a frequent and persistent problem under the radar. In any case, with Justa* gone, a remedy against Anynobody inclusive of that reason lacks a preventive purpose, so I suggest tagging it with a note of 'No longer relevant to a preventative remedy since Justa(names) has been site banned by another remedy of this case'.
My tentative conclusion is that there is either no substantive case against Anynobody, or it's a case that's been presented with insufficient specificity. If there is no substantive case, the topic ban and restriction should be rescinded. If there is a substantive case, please present it so Anynobody can either defend his actions, or avoid doing again whatever he supposedly did that was so bad it deserved a topic ban. Milo 01:43, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
I haven't logged into my Wikipedia account in quite a while, so I was not aware that I had been dragged into Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Scientology until a friend told me today that I'd been topic banned. I wish to protest this ban as unjustified.
A look at my edit history shows that I have not edited any Scientology-related article since 2007. (Been busy doing other things.) I contributed a few typo/grammar fixes in 2008, but none of those articles were about Scientology. It is unreasonable to topic ban me in 2009 when I've never received any kind of reprimand or caution about any edits I've made, and have done nothing wrong, even when I was editing Scientology articles back in 2007.
Second, the ruling criticizes me for editing the article on Applied Scholastics and for including a link to my StudyTech.org web site. The StudyTech.org web site is the primary reference for anyone who wants a critical look at the subject. That is why the current Applied Scholastics article, which I have not touched since 2007, continues to link to StudyTech.org; any article that did not link to this resource would be incomplete. I don't think it's Wikpedia policy that only non-experts can edit an article. And I contest the claim that my edits are self-interested. People write about what they know. Being a Scientology critic shouldn't prohibit me from editing Scientology-related articles any more than being a Scientologist would.
Being topic banned is humiliating and, in my case, unjustified. I'd like to request that this ban be rescinded.
Comment: Reading the appeal of Touretzky I find that he did not get it. His personal websites are not an authoritative source for anything but his own state of mind and him pushing them into Wikipedia articles is exactly what he was topic-banned for. Shutterbug ( talk) 01:24, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Response to DT: Dave, read up on Wikipedia policy, will you? Quiz: Copies of secondary sources hosted on private attack websites. Allowed per WP:RS or not? Shutterbug ( talk) 06:38, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps this motion should be expanded to include other editors who had not edited the topic for a very long time before the case began. Intending this equally toward both 'sides': it's about principle, not ideology. Wikipedia remedies are supposed to be preventative rather than punitive. It is unlikely that any sanctions proposal against an editor who hadn't touched a topic since 2007 would have passed--or even been taken seriously--if similar proposals had gone up at AN or ANI. That applies generally, not simply to long term disputes.
When you go for the nuclear option, you may get Chernobyl. Indiscriminate and/or punitive sanctions could make the topic radioactive. Looking ahead, I worry about the long term impact upon this topic if the uninvolved Wikipedians whose assistance the Committee seeks to encourage become fearful to make the attempt. Durova Charge! 02:42, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Moved comments from other sections to new single section. KnightLago ( talk) 02:33, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Comment: I've read the arbitration decision and User:Touretzky's appeal. Given the evidence that Touretzky presents, it seems reasonable to reconsider the topic ban on this editor. If there were activity in the past year in support of this ban, or examples of egregiously disruptive behavior, I would think otherwise, but I fail to see such evidence. -- Zippy ( talk) 19:27, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
This is also what I am thinking. Let's say we're dealing with a user who makes edits in good faith, whether they get the ethos of the Wikipedia or not. This is pretty common, and the normal action is to guide the user, warn them if the behavior continues, and block as a last resort, but even then, block only for a short amount of time (a day, a week).
In this case, we have a user, Touretzky, who made edits that the arbitration committee has decided are not in keeping with the rules and guidelines of Wikipedia. The edits were over a year ago, and Touretzky says he received no warning at the time, yet did not create any more events deemed worthy of arbitration attention or warning or sanction.
Whether the user gets it or not is missing the point. I believe that bringing down the ban-hammer on a user as step one, or even step n, is premature if they a) have not received guidance from the community at the time the edit occurred, and b) have not continued to make edits that go against the rules and guidelines of Wikipedia.
In this case, Touretzky is engaged in a dialog with the greater Wikipedia community, something that can be achieved with less than a topic ban. I would rather that we assume good faith and allow this user to be free of the mark of sanction so long as his present behavior is within the norms of so many other editors who have yet to fully grok Wikipedia. By topic banning, I believe we are more likely to lose an editor than we are to bring them up to speed. -- Zippy ( talk) 03:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
No doubt this topic is a particularly polarizing one, I think everyone would agree with that. My question is more about the right way to bring users into the fold. For a user's first experience with official guidance to be not a warning, but a topic ban, seems heavy-handed considering the actions by the user occurred in 2007. As the user has not in recent memory been engaged in any behavior worth objection, and has made constructive edits on other topics in the meantime, why not talk to the user rather than sanction them?
While I accept that your intent with a topic ban is to rehabilitate the user, I suspect that in many cases, if a user were faced with a topic ban as the first action against them, we would be unlikely to see that user return. And so I would like us to assume good faith here, not in a wikilawyerly way, but as a reasonable path, considering the user has not done anything that anyone has objected to for over a year. -- Zippy ( talk) 21:02, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
With all respect to the difficulty the arbitration committee faces with the edits on the topic of Scientology, Touretzky engaged in no objectionable edits for one and a half years prior to the arbitration committee's decision. Why ask for more evidence of good behavior when you have at least 18 months of it? -- Zippy ( talk) 21:27, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
User:Shutterbug is a named party in the arbitration committee's decision. -- Zippy ( talk) 18:32, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
The object of the decision is to require single-purpose editors on Scientology topics, or on Scientology aspects of other topics (such as [6] to demonstrate a commitment to Wikipedia's model of cooperative editing by editing other topics for a while; the ban may be appealed after 6 months. Regarding studytech.org, it is not a reliable source as such. Where it contains newspaper articles and other reliable content, the appropriate practice is to cite the original source, even if it is not online and can not be made an active link. There are several reasons for this, primarily a) a site hosting a copy of someone else's copyrighted news article may be infringing on the original copyright and Wikipedia frowns on contributory infringement, and b) there is a risk that partisan archives may not be completely accurate. For more information see the "Convenience links" section of Wikipedia:Citing_sources. Thatcher 12:19, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
"... Lest there be any doubt, there are the editors who, over the years, have got the topic into the toxic mess it is today. There is no evidence whatsoever that the passage of time has changed the deeply held beliefs of the topic-banned editors nor influenced their ability to behave correctly. If any have moved on from Scientology, a Scientology topic ban will not hurt them. If they have not moved on, six months pottering around Wikipedia learning how policy works in other less-contentious areas will do them no harm. There is no element of punishment in any of the topic-bans; they are preventative and rehabilitive." Roger Davies, at [7]
I am afraid that these assertions from Roger Davies cause me to wonder anew just how well Roger, and the other members of the Arbitration Committee, actually understand the effects of the decision they have handed down. The statement that the topic-bans are "preventative and rehabilitive," and that "there is no element of punishment in any of the topic-bans," is so startling that I can only think that Roger has in mind only what the intent behind the topic-bans was, and has perhaps not realized that the effect of the ArbCom's punishment is substantially different from what it might have envisioned or intended.
The ArbCom may choose to believe that it is not bound by the precedents of previous cases, but it cannot ignore those precedents. With that in mind, let's look at a case from the past, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Terryeo. It does not take much examination of the evidence to get a sense of Terryeo; I actually suspect that a reader can get a fairly strong sense from just one section of the evidence, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Terryeo/Evidence#Evidence presented by Antaeus Feldspar, showing just one point on which Terryeo argued endlessly and tendentiously, accusing other editors of inserting opinion and original research, accusing other editors of lying, removing citations with false claims about the contents of the cited sources, and inserting his own opinion and original research (yes, after loudly demonizing others for allegedly doing so.) So what is my point in bringing up the case of Terryeo? Simply this: That arbitration case was called to deal with just one problem user, and after all the evidence (about 120 diffs by my count) presented to show that user's problem behavior on Scientology and Dianetics related pages, the ArbCom chose the following remedy: "Terryeo is banned indefinitely from articles which relate to Dianetics or Scientology. He may make appropriate comments on talk pages." (emphasis added.)
By sentencing current editors to a complete topic ban, specifically stated to exclude talk pages, the current Arbitration Committee is making the clear statement, whether it is intentional or not: all these editors are greater offenders than Terryeo. They must be, or else it would not be necessary to sentence them more harshly than Terryeo, based on less evidence.
Perhaps in a world where "what happens on Wikipedia, stays on Wikipedia," it might be true that painting these editors as offenders so severe that the ArbCom must use topic-banning as a first resort rather than last has "no element of punishment". Perhaps in a world where reputation has no effect whatsoever, or a world without Google, this drastic depiction "will not hurt them." Not in this world, however. It was not that long ago that I was on a lunch date with a lovely young lady that I had been recently introduced to, and she started the conversation, to my shock, with her observations on my past difficulties at the hands of Zordrac ( talk · contribs). I was fortunate that she was able to recognize Zordrac (a.k.a. Internodeuser) as possessed of neither honesty or good judgment -- but could I have expected her to recognize that the Arbitration Committee, when it chose the drastic remedy of topic-banning, was simply trying to find a "rehabilitive" remedy? Could I have expected her, frankly, to believe such a claim, when I myself find it hard to credit? Could I expect a prospective employer, Googling me, to believe that the Arbitration Committee thought its topic-ban on me was purely "preventative"? I do not think anyone looking at my contributions, noting the complete absence of any article edits from the end of June 2007 right up to the current day, would believe that the ArbCom applied a "preventative" remedy, because quite obviously there was no reason to think there was anything to prevent.
"There is no evidence whatsoever that the passage of time has changed the deeply held beliefs of the topic-banned editors nor influenced their ability to behave correctly" -- I think that it might be said, quite gently, that it is not the place of the Arbitration Committee to change the deeply held beliefs of any editor, whether those beliefs be Scientology or science. Nor is it rational for any member of the ArbCom to expect editors to change their deeply held beliefs to suit the pleasures of the Arbitration Committee. Editor behavior is the jurisdiction of the Arbitration Committee. If the Arbitration Committee wishes to influence editor behavior in a positive direction, however, I cannot think that relying purely on "the passage of time" to "influence their ability to behave correctly" is an advisable course of action. Neither is employing as a first resort, for editors made aware for the first time that their behavior is of concern to the ArbCom, remedies more severe than those used as a last resort against editors with long and blatant histories. -- Antaeus Feldspar ( talk) 01:09, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
"I'm puzzled by the claim that these topic bans are punitive." Generally speaking, sanctions have one of three rationales: punitive, preventative, or rehabilitative.
With reference to any one of the multiple editors who had been completely inactive on the topic of Scientology -- or completely inactive, period -- for over a year prior to the start of the case, it really is very hard to see what sort of imminent disruption the ArbCom might have believed that they were "preventing". Did they really believe that Touretzky's complete inactivity from 27 September 2008 onward was just the prelude to some sort of disruptive return, which had to be prevented with the immediately brute-force remedy of a topic-ban?
It is even harder for any reasonable person to believe that the topic bans would have a "rehabilitative" effect. No one who has a choice chooses to "rehabilitate" unless they are given some reason to believe that there is a better place which can be theirs at the end of the process. The Arbitration Committee gave no such reason. On the contrary, by interpreting editors' records in the worst possible light (for instance, jumping to the conclusion that a large number of Scientology edits is automatically a history of POV warring, and that the only deleted contributions worth considering in an editor's record must have been to BLPs [8]), by labelling them as an imminent threat that could only be dealt with by a brute-force remedy that skipped all the "other avenues" that it is expected will be tried first, the Arbitration Committee gave all those editors reason to believe that if they stayed (or, in many cases, returned) they would be devalued and treated as criminals. What exactly the Arbitration Committee think that they provided as incentive for anyone to "rehabilitate"?
Sanctions have one of three rationales: punitive, preventative, or rehabilitative. People are referring to these topic-bans as punitive measures because of those three, only a punitive intent makes sense of what the ArbCom did. -- Antaeus Feldspar ( talk) 16:15, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
The simple truth here is that any editor trying to add info to Scientology topics has three basic types of sources to use:
Clearly info from Scientology and its critics has a place in our articles, but since both sides are biased more space must be reserved for mainstream sources without a bias one way or another. When drawing upon mainstream sources one can't help but notice the overall negative tone of coverage. Since neutrality, as defined in Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, means including all relevant non-biased sources. If we do that with regards to Scientology articles, the negative tone in our sources will also be reflected in our articles.
If one wants to give an overall neutral tone to Scientology articles, the only way to do so would be ignoring articles with titles like; "The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power". I can't make a topic sound any better or worse than the sources available make it sound, in this case they make Scientology sound pretty bad. It's not Dr. Touretzky's, Antaeus Feldspar's, or my fault that our sources paint a negative picture of Scientology. Anynobody( ?) 04:17, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
With all due respect to Roger Davies, his claim that "There is no element of punishment in any of the topic-bans" is completely and blatantly incorrect. While the bans may not have been enacted with a punitive intent, they do in fact serve to punish the editors against whom they were imposed. In a variety of ways, users subject to active sanctions by the Arbitration Committee are relegated to second-class citizenship on Wikipedia - for instance, they are persona non grata at RFA; Davies' assertion that "If any have moved on from Scientology, a Scientology topic ban will not hurt them" is obviously false. For this reason, while the committee may view past conduct as the background against which current behavior is considered, it should not sanction editors except when necessary to control present disruption. If the Arbitration Committee will not reverse its decision to topic-ban users over editing that occurred in 2007 and earlier, then Jimbo Wales should. Erik9 ( talk) 03:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I notice that most of the topic-banned critics haven't edited for a long time - so they have already done what the ban is meant to do ("editing other topics for a while"). Although this sounds like a conspiracy theory, it looks to me as if the idea was to block a few inactive critics to avoid a lawsuit by scientology, so to make it appear that the ban is "balanced", so that heads from "both sides" are put on pikes.
Yeah, the ban can be "appealed" after six months. Considering the way that my topic-ban was constructed in the first place (falsely labelling me a single purpose account, later corrected to a "Scientology-focused" account, then using edits on one single deleted-contrary-to-AFD article from three years ago as "evidence", but hiding the evidence-edits from the accused), I'd expect this "appeals" process to be like these parole hearings in movies, where the innocent guy is denied parole only after he admits guilt and feels "sincerly" sorry in several hearings :-) -- Tilman ( talk) 14:28, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
This is a request for a minor clarification or amendment of remedy #2 (IP addresses belonging to the Church of Scientology), to avoid a point of contention that is sure to arise some time soon.
The ruling states, "All IP addresses owned or operated by the Church of Scientology and its associates, broadly interpreted, are to be blocked as if they were open proxies. Individual editors may request IP block exemption if they wish to contribute from the blocked IP addresses."
Could the Committee clarify that this covers IP addresses reasonably believed to be owned or operated by the CoS, or that appear to be substantively used for that purpose or on their behalf, not just those where "ownership" is formally proven through an IP registrar or "operated by" is claimed (and disputed).
This guidance would be worth obtaining before any blocks start hitting the administrators' incident or arbitration enforcement noticeboards, and because it is an obvious block evasion/ wikilawyering tactic (obtaining new IP addresses not visibly "owned or operated" by CoS, even "broadly interpreted", would be trivially easy).
FT2 ( Talk | email) 12:13, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
I have edited almost no articles on scientology for over a year (I all but stopped after August 2007), but have still been topic-banned. This is like a scarlet letter which is while I'd like to have the ban lifted, even if I am not currently editing on this. My only "crime" was that I edited on Barbara Schwarz while at the same time being in a dispute with her on the usenet, in 2006, so this is three years old. I have never been blocked because of this.
I can't access my actual edits on Barbara Schwarz, so I can't defend myself there (especially the accusation that I was told of a CoI and kept editing), but I know that I take great care to use a "neutral" language when on wikipedia. Although a scientology critic, I have always been careful to respect WP:NPOV when editing, i.e. to avoid using inflammatory language. This is why I have been blocked only once in 2006 for two hours because of a 3RR mistake.
Amusingly, because the topic ban also applies to the discussion pages of scientology related articles, I am also prohibited on talking about Tilman Hausherr or Xenu's Link Sleuth, despite being an obvious expert on these. (I am aware that editing on the articles is of course always a no-no)
According to this article [9] citing one "Dan Rosenthal", there is only one of the banned critics who hasn't been reinstated, so this is me... -- Tilman ( talk) 20:16, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Despite what Dan Rosenthal said in the LA Times article Tilman cites, I've seen no evidence that any banned users have been reinstated. Both Antaeus Feldspar and I have appealed our bans, as Tilman is doing now. No progress to report yet. -- Touretzky ( talk) 01:07, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
The statement in question was made by the LA Times, not me. I did not state to them anything of the sort. ⇒ SWATJester Son of the Defender 04:21, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
"Topic-banning is not the same thing as a site-ban." They only differ in scope. Both of them send the blatant message: "This user is so wholly destructive and intractable that only brute force will curb their disruption." This claim becomes hard to support if we look at, for instance, Special:Contributions/Touretzky: it is hard to see how an editor who had not made any edits at all for over thirteen months prior to the start of the case represented such a threat of disruption that it justified such a drastic and stigmatizing response. This was not an isolated fluke; Touretzky is not the only such editor whose record shows over a year of inactivity, whether on the topic of Scientology or on all topics, before being abruptly labeled an imminent threat to Wikipedia whose purported disruption could only be neutralized with brute-force action. -- Antaeus Feldspar ( talk) 14:48, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Tilman, I notice you haven't done much editing in the past year. A word of advice. Take some articles in a topic other than Scientology to Good Article or better, Featured Article status during the next six months or so. That will show that you're intentions here are to build an encyclopedia. Then, nicely and politely, request that the topic ban be lifted. Cla68 ( talk) 07:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Remedy 8 ("Editors instructed") requires users "(B) To edit only through a conventional ISP and not through any form of proxy configuration". However, some Internet service providers run all users' Internet connections through a proxy. This includes or included AOL and the only ISP in Qatar (see WP:SIP). Other Internet service providers, such as all ISPs in the People's Republic of China (see WP:TOR), use other forms of connection filtering, and users of those ISPs cannot view or edit Wikipedia except through proxies. On behalf of people affected by an ISP's proxy, I request an explanation of why these people should remain topic-banned.
The method currently described by the pages on WP:WOCP has not worked since CentralAuth was enabled, as such mine has never been online, nor had any users. Q T C 16:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Initiated by Anynobody( ?) at 22:01, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm really not into edit warring and already practice a version of 1RR: If I add something sans a source which gets removed, I won't try restoring it until a good source can be found (since I don't edit as much as I used to this usually means a day or so.) I'm also not a fan of reverting edits without discussion. If I had a good source to begin with and my edit is removed without a logical reason I first add a section to the talk page explaining why my edit was valid regarding relevant policies/guidelines and then revert the article (usually trying different verbiage) noting to check talk page in the edit summary. Most people will then proceed to a discussion on the talk page where either I am convinced to remove the edit or the other editor is persuaded my original edit was ok.
Actually the docs I uploaded, were for the most part* discussed in this secondary source about Hubbard's service and his claims regarding it called Ron the War Hero. For example most of the documents I uploaded come from this page on the site about Hubbard's claimed sub kills. *An exception would be the ASW-1 form I uploaded, which was not found on the site. That was uploaded in case anyone reading Admiral Fletcher's report wondered what he meant by saying PC-815's report was not in accordance with ASW-1.
I'm not saying I was perfect, I certainly wouldn't add a reference like Admiral Weneker's report about Japanese subs not commerce raiding off the US coast as a response to Scientology claims that the Japanese were in the area often.
Fellow Wikipedians I started editing here in January 2007 and during the few months made some mistakes based on misunderstanding our rules. (Let's call them the early 2007 errors) By the time I was involved in the first Scientology case in July 2007 I thought I had done a good job of editing within policy and put the early 2007 errors behind me. The arbcom didn't seem concerned I was still making the same editing errors: Issue addressed was unrelated to editing articles. (It's also relevant to mention I completely refrained from contacting the other editor as mandated by the arbcom in that case.) By mid 2008 I had certainly come to understand how WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:OR, and WP:CITE work: Diff I think that's rational, bearing in mind that some use of CoS sources is necessary only to report their major assertions about him discussed in secondary sources. However CoS information which has not been in a relevant secondary source is probably unacceptable. (I should mention that I know the same standard applies to any source.)
In May 2009, citing my early 2007 errors, the arbcom topic banned me from editing Scientology topics. If the concern is that I'll go back to making the same early 2007 errors, creating WP:SYNTH, and getting involved with edit disputes I promise that is definitely not the case because I wasn't doing those things in 2009 when I was banned. (This is why I may come off as arrogant or unrepentant here, being punished for mistakes made two years earlier that have not been repeated since, is incredibly frustrating!) Anynobody( ?) 00:58, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}
Can the numbering or contents be fixed so that section 15.3.7 isn't remedy 8? I don't care which, but it would be nice if it were consistent. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle ( talk) 21:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
moved by me logged out at the Library put here by me logged in
The log of Remedies are merely that logs, Will's comment is noted and it is assumed Scott is abiding by it his suggestion. The Resident Anthropologist ( talk) 23:18, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
It is hard to assume good faith here. I have absolutely no partisan interest in Scientology, having contributed no content in that subject, and not having any intention to. Neither do I enforce arbcom restictions - I once did in a Scientology area in response to an unequivocal violation - it was entirely uncontroversial, and no one complained. So asking me to "stop" or "withdraw" from something I'm not doing seems strange. Will, who IS an involved editor, and with whom I've had a number of disagreements over his BLP editing, arrived on my talk page offering "advice" that I shouldn't do enforcement and demanding I admit to being "involved". I declined to do so. If anyone has issues with my editing I'll address them, but I'm not going to give pledges to partisans with apparent concerns over entirely unlikely hypotheticals. If any uninvolved admin believes that there is a real (and not hypothetical) danger I'm about to cross a line somewhere, I'll be happy to follow that advice. Otherwise this whole discussion seems like tendentious wikilawyering.-- Scott Mac 19:35, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Initiated by J N 466 10:21, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Since there is currently a fashion for this, I think I ought to apply myself. In the WP:ARBSCI case in 2009, almost exactly three years ago, I was placed under a topic ban "from articles about Rick Ross, broadly defined". This was largely the result of concerns over my fall 2008 edit-warring at the Ross BLP with a Wikipedia admin (since desysopped, topic-banned and community-banned), and the BLP subject's personal objection to my editing his biography.
Remedy 3B of ARBSCI provides that:
The current situation is that:
@Roger: I have no intention of returning to the topic area ("articles about Rick Ross, broadly defined"). Given that we submitted arbitration evidence about each other, I would not want him editing my biography, if I had one, and he is surely entitled to the same peace of mind. Regards. -- J N 466 08:30, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
@Jclemens, FWIW, I understand I was an idiot then, and I am sorry. In fact, I owe Ross an apology. Re-reading some of the article versions I defended in 2008 is a cringeworthy experience. J N 466 07:49, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
What I wrote about Prioryman also applies to Jayen466; he is one the best editors we have on Wikipedia. There may have been grounds to impose some restrictions in the past, but to keep them in force given his record is not justified. Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, so when we impose a topic ban, we are actually making the judgement that the editor in question is so much worse than a randomly selected person from the World's population, that you need to restrict that editor.
Even if we only focus on the past problems involving Jayen466 and Prioryman in the Scientology topic area, one can also argue that because they have been exposed to these problems in the past, they have become better editors as a result of that today. Count Iblis ( talk) 16:14, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
I would recommend against removing restrictions from JN, who was a principal in a veritable holy war against User:Cirt. The latter wound up being desysopped and we lost one of the best closers at AfD, while JN walked away with a "tsk tsk." Cirt's activity on this topic strikes me as being an underlying cause of this battle — a mini-POV war, if you will. Carrite ( talk) 01:46, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
User:Jayen should get a Wikipedia retainer for getting rid (helping to catalog and draw attention to the policy violations of) User:Cirt a violator of the project of the highest order (the worst I have seen in three years) that after WP:BLP restrictions here has simply moved to create BLP violating content on wikinews. As for Cirt's AFD prowess - he used to close ten a minute with one word closes, nothing special there. - this reply is in response to Carrite's comment, although what this request has to do with User:Cirt is really beyond me. Youreally can 11:56, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
I regret that, to my own shame, I had in the past "stood up" for Cirt on some issues of disagreement between him and JN. We all know the ultimate outcome there. I also acknowledge that the subject himself, Rick Ross, has been a bit of a controversial one. But JN is one of the best writers and editors I think we have, and this is a subject of interest to him, as it is, to a perhaps lesser degree, to me and others. I believe we would all be better off with as many very good editors like him (not so much me) involved in all articles as possible. Also, I am very heartened by some of JN's own comments above, which indicate that he would now act very differently in controversial matters. I think/hope that I have become a bit more neutral over the years, and I believe from my interactions with him JN certainly has. I can see no reason not to have the ban lifted. Worst comes to worst, the page could be placed under discretionary sanctions, which probably isn't that bad of an idea for most controversial subjects around here. John Carter ( talk) 20:24, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
I come from a similar place as John Carter, above, though I don't believe I was ever really involved with the case. My rather infrequent interactions with JN have benefited greatly from my gradual withdrawal from those entrenchments, and I have a much better opinion of this editor than I did before, and a more correct one, I believe. I think restrictions should be lifted. Drmies ( talk) 02:58, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
1) The restriction imposed on Jayen466 ( talk · contribs) by Remedy 21.1 of the Scientology case (" Jayen466 topic-banned from Rick Ross articles") is hereby lifted.
To replace the customised Scientology discretionary topic bans with standard discretionary sanctions:
This remedy is superseded with immediate effect by Remedy 4.1. All discretionary topic bans placed under Remedy 4 remain in full force and are subject to the provisions of Remedy 4.1.
Standard discretionary sanctions are authorised with immediate effect for the Scientology topic broadly construed. All warnings and sanctions shall be logged in the appropriate section of the main case page.
Just noting here that there is a long boilerplate on most articles in this topic area (see Talk:Bare-faced Messiah for an example). Does this need to be updated? Prioryman ( talk) 07:45, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Initiated by Prioryman ( talk) at 00:38, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Note to arbitrators: I have separated this out as a separate request for your consideration in addition to the ARBCC appeal above. The discussion there has got unduly lengthy and has confused the two cases; the two matters really need to be considered on their own merits. Please address my ARBCC appeal above, and this ARBSCI appeal below, as independent appeals.
In the WP:ARBSCI case in 2009 I agreed to a set of binding voluntary restrictions. These were that within the topic area (i) I limit my edits to directly improving articles to meet GA and FA criteria, using reliable sources; (ii) I make no edits of whatever nature to biographies of living people; and (iii) I refrain from sysop action of whatever nature. The findings against me concerned conduct as a sysop, which is no longer relevant as I no longer exercise that function, and errors in the sourcing of articles. I acknowledged error at the time and voluntarily proposed the restrictions under which I currently operate.
The case came about due to concerns about COI editing and role accounts [12]. I was not involved in those issues and was only added to the case at a very late stage. There was no suggestion at the time that I was involved in any ongoing issues; all of the findings against me related to a small number of historical edits, the most recent of which had been made a year before the case and the oldest of which went back all the way to August 2005, over four years before the case.
Remedy 3B of the case provides that:
The current situation is that:
The sanctions are no longer necessary for the following reasons:
I would also like the Committee to note that the restrictions were voluntarily proposed by myself, and I request that I be given credit for this. I therefore ask for the restrictions to be lifted.
I'd like to remind editors topic-banned under ARBSCI or banned from interacting with me that they aren't allowed to comment on this request here or on any other page on Wikipedia. Prioryman ( talk) 00:38, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
I would advise against lifting the ARBSCI BLP restriction at this time. I would like to see a substantial history of even-handed, neutral editing in generic articles first. No objection to lifting the remainder of the restriction. -- J N 466 20:14, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Similar to what I wrote about Jayen466's request, the restrictions should be lifted for Prioryman also in this case. The entire BLP topic area has come under much stricter oversight than just a few years ago, and this system also works quite smoothly. And I don't think Prioryman will behave as a troublemaker in this area, given his record in the BLP area outside this particular topic area. Count Iblis ( talk) 20:03, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
− I oppose lifting of this users Scientology arbitration restrictions - The user is one of the twenty notable people attacking Scientology - I strongly oppose his reintegration to the BLP sector in this topic - non WP:BLP I would not object to - I would prefer him to be honest and connect himself to the Helatrobus account. - Youreally can 04:49, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Another editor writing above hopes to see "a substantial history of even-handed, neutral editing in generic articles first". I think that's exactly what we *do* see at this point, and I would support lifting the restrictions -- this is clearly a productive and intelligent editor, an asset to the project. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 06:29, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
1) The restriction imposed on Prioryman ( talk · contribs) by Remedy 17 of the Scientology case (" ChrisO restricted") is hereby lifted.
Initiated by Lyncs ( talk) at 17:10, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Suspension of site ban: User:Justanother / User:Justallofthem
Your indefinite site ban is suspended subject to your unconditional acceptance of and compliance with the following restrictions:
Single account limitation
You may edit from one account only - currently Lyncs (talk · contribs) - with no exceptions for whatever reason. You may rename that account provided (i) you immediately notify the committee of the rename; (ii) the redirects from the prior account name remain in place; and (iii) you display a link to the previous account name on your user page.
Interaction ban Cirt
i) You may neither communicate with nor comment upon or make reference to either directly or indirectly to User:Cirt or their contributions on any page in the English Wikipedia. You may not edit Cirt's talk or user pages though you may, within reason, comment within other pages providing your comments do not relate directly or indirectly to Cirt or their edits. The sole exception to the interaction ban is that you may respond civilly on matters explicitly pertaining to you raised by Cirt or any other editor in any dispute resolution or enforcement context.
ii) Should you violate the letter or spirit of the restrictions above, you may be blocked without prior warning via the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard: on the first occasion for up to one week; on the second occasion for up to one month; and on the third occasion for up to three months. Appeal of any blocks is to the Arbitration Committee.
Topic banned from Scientology
You are indefinitely topic-banned from Scientology on the standard terms outlined here.
For the Arbitration Committee, Roger talk 13:20, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
I was conditionally reinstated well over one year ago with the comment at the time that I could ask to have the restrictions lifted following some period of good behavior. I believe that statement was in an email from an arbitrator and can try to find it if needed.
It is now well over one year and I think that I have evidenced my good behavior and good intentions. I do not edit all that much but might edit more in the future. I would prefer to 1) have access to a subject, Scientology, that I am extremely conversant with and 2) not have any live mines that I might inadvertently step onto vis-a-vis interaction bans or the like.
It is not my intention to interact with Cirt and it is currently not my intention to edit Scientology articles but I do not think there is any need to bar me from either at this point. If I do edit in Scientology (which could happen) or interact with Cirt (which is unlikely), I would still be bound by the rules and norms of Wikipedia with the added factor that I will be subject to certain scrutiny so I think it is not inappropiate to grant this request. Thank you.
1. Response to Newyorkbrad: Lifting the one account restriction is the least of my concerns and if that is a deciding factor or a factor of concern then I have no problem continuing editing solely from this account. -- Lyncs ( talk) 12:00, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
2. Response to AGK: I could make argument on the merits of the original sanctions and possible injustices but I am not interesting in rehashing that nor, I imagine, is the committee. The fact that I have been back for well over one year and have not had any problems is indicative of the fact that I am not into causing problems. That is an important point. Troublemakers cause trouble. They do not stop because they are now excluded from one area or another. They make trouble where they are. That is not what I am about.
On second thought, I will say one thing of a general nature related to my sanctions. When I started editing here, I edited the Scientology articles as that was something I had been involved with for many years. If you are familiar with that territory prior to the arbitration, the Scientology articles were a battleground of anti-Scientology zealots warring with Scientology zealots with the antis well in control of the situation. But it was noisy nonetheless. I arrived as a non-zealot Scientologist just trying to add some balance and the benefit of my knowledge. While there were and are plenty of non-zealot folks that do not think highly of Scientology, few seemed to accept that there could be a Scientologist that was a not a zealot. To most, especially the antis, all Scientologists were programmed, brainwashed, and agents of the evil OSA. But that is how zealots see things. I made many thousands of edits. My edits were never much of an issue. What was the issue was that I screamed pretty loudly when getting stuck with pins. I think that the project is wiser now on the subject of Scientology. I hope it is wiser on the subject of wiki-bullying in general.
I could discretely canvass my wiki-friends and ask them to speak for me but I am not going to do that. They are, of course, welcome to speak on my behalf if they care to; I am just not going around asking anyone to do so.
I think the fact that no-one feels strongly enough about my request to come over here and object says something also. I think the fact that it is so quiet here speaks for my request, not against it.
In other words, I present the case that my request is almost a non-issue and I am simply looking for the sanctions to be lifted as "time served" with a warning to watch my step in the future or as appropriate. -- Lyncs ( talk) 00:55, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
3. Response to Roger Davies: All due respect, but I am not sure what more persuasive argument I can make regarding the two and third issues.
I think the fact that three years have elapsed since the end of the Scientology case and I have had next to zero interaction with Cirt and exhibited zero inclination to harass him in any manner should, IMO, be all the argument I need make. What more can I say? I have already stated that "it is not my intention to interact with Cirt". It is not my intention to interact with Cirt and certainly not my intention to cause him grief. I just do not feel that, based on my evidenced lack of intention to harass him, I need have concern about violating a sanction were our paths to cross in some innocuous fashion. Let me put it a bit more strongly; it is my intention to avoid crossing paths with Cirt where possible and to keep things civil if circumstance puts us on the same page.
Regarding the one account restriction, as I state above, that one I can live with but, again based on good behavior, I also would be fine with having it lifted and simply being reinstated in full. -- Lyncs ( talk) 16:10, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
4. Response to "Statement by Cirt": I think it is appropriate to respond to Cirt's points seeing as he posted them as arguments against my request. If the committee feels this is not appropriate then this edit can be undone. I do not think that his arguments against my request are compelling as outlined below:
Thank you. -- Lyncs ( talk) 23:47, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I took a quick look at Lyncs' 100 most recent article space edits. The edits seem to be fine, but they go back quite far (Aug 2011) and aren't incredibly substantial so there isn't a lot of history to examine. NW ( Talk) 03:51, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
I've been informed by Arbitration Clerk AlexandrDmitri that I may respond to this request, diff.
I have to strongly oppose this request by Lyncs ( talk · contribs), for several reasons.
Thank you for your time, — Cirt ( talk) 14:55, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I count as a friend of Lyncs' (Justanother), which should be kept in mind when reading the following. But I guess not many people remember this stuff, so after some hesitation I decided to weigh in all the same.
Lyncs doesn't edit much, no. It's chilling to be under restrictions that express so much distrust in one's good will. His continued interest in Wikipedia is evidenced by his remaining a gnomish editor throughout this long period. To me it seems reasonable to believe him when he states that he doesn't harbour any intentions to interact with Cirt or — at present — to edit Scientology articles. I'd be really, really surprised if he even wanted to have anything to do with Cirt. This is not the place to criticise Cirt, but since the 2011 ArbCom desysopped him, the long-time campaign of his protector (who has left Wikipedia, so there's no reason to name her here) to discredit Justanother as an evil machiavellian harasser of the paragon Cirt has perhaps lost some credibility. This ANI thread from 2008, an attempt to get Justanother community banned, is a particularly egregious example. I'm happy to note that the community ban process has been cleaned up some since then. (My criticism of how it worked on this occasion is here, right at the end, in case you can't face reading the whole. It's a very colourful thread, though, especially the.. uh.. different culture evinced in the input from the two Wikinews editors.)
If Lyncs should return to Scientology on a large scale, and/or in a questionable manner, it would surely be easy to reinstate the restrictions. I suggest all the restrictions be removed (unless everybody including Lyncs is happy with the restriction to one account), perhaps with phrasing that provides for quick and simple reinstatement of them, if required. Bishonen | talk 15:03, 2 June 2012 (UTC).
With respect to Bishonen above, the topical and interpersonal disputes are in a separate league to the issue of inappropriate use of multiple accounts - the Community has always (to this day) expressed strong views on this issue, given how serious a breach of trust it is. A relevant question, I think, is what caused or tempted the user to the inappropriate use of multiple accounts - did it start off during a dispute in the topic (or with Cirt), did it start off as a matter of generality, or was it well-intentioned conduct that was inadvertantly disruptive (which has now been clarified and remedied)? Unless it is the latter, or this is a case where a single account restriction was completely unwarranted, I would not be comfortable with lending support to the removal of a single account restriction (even with a discretionary sanctions regime). If it did start off during a dispute in a topic or with an user, and that user has subsequently demonstrated there are no issues with his editing in that topic or with that user, then I would agree about the chilling effect - but we are not even at that point yet. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 16:06, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm not at all sure why anyone thinks there's a need to remove the interaction ban. That seems to be doing its job quite well, and we have no evidence here that the user's behavior has improved in any substantial way. Even more strongly, I see no reason to remove the ban on scientology edits. We're dealing with someone who made a single purpose account to POV push and launch a "campaign"(ArbCom's word) against Cirt. [15] (I strongly suggest that people review that finding of fact and the evidence in the case). That was the finding of fact. So far, we've seen no reason to think that the user even is willing to say that maybe his actions were wrong or against policy. We have no reason to think he isn't going to go back to his usual disruption of Scientology articles. By all means let him edit, and let him do so far away from Cirt and far away from Scientology. JoshuaZ ( talk) 16:13, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
For reference, the current restrictions on Lyncs ( talk · contribs) (who previously edited as Justanother ( talk · contribs) and Justallofthem ( talk · contribs)) are:
Your indefinite site ban is suspended subject to your unconditional acceptance of and compliance with the following restrictions:
Single account limitation
You may edit from one account only - currently Lyncs ( talk · contribs) - with no exceptions for whatever reason. You may rename that account provided (i) you immediately notify the committee of the rename; (ii) the redirects from the prior account name remain in place; and (iii) you display a link to the previous account name on your user page.
i) You may neither communicate with nor comment upon or make reference to either directly or indirectly to User:Cirt or their contributions on any page in the English Wikipedia. You may not edit Cirt's talk or user pages though you may, within reason, comment within other pages providing your comments do not relate directly or indirectly to Cirt or their edits. The sole exception to the interaction ban is that you may respond civilly on matters explicitly pertaining to you raised by Cirt or any other editor in any dispute resolution or enforcement context.
ii) Should you violate the letter or spirit of the restrictions above, you may be blocked without prior warning via the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard: on the first occasion for up to one week; on the second occasion for up to one month; and on the third occasion for up to three months. Appeal of any blocks is to the Arbitration Committee.
You are indefinitely topic-banned from Scientology on the standard terms outlined here.
Proposed:
Proposed:
Proposed:
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Prioryman ( talk) at 07:52, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
I'd be grateful if the Committee could clarify a couple of points regarding Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Scientology.
@Salvio: Thanks for the advice, but I'm simply trying to clarify the situation with the scope of the sanctions and the project banner. Thanks for doing so. Prioryman ( talk) 18:02, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Based on previous statements and clarifications by the ArbCom (not related to Scientology) I would suggest that the discretionary sanctions apply to all Scientology content on Wikipedia, including templates and sections of larger articles.
Regarding the template, the key aspect of discretionary sanctions is that editors must be aware of them before they can be sanctioned under them. A notice on the talk page is a convenient way to alert people that the sanctions exist and that that article is within the scope of them. It is not the only way though, for example if you edit warred about adding significant Scientology-related content to Riverside County, California you could not successfully argue that you were not aware of the existence of DS for the topic area even if there wasn't a template on the article talk page. Thryduulf ( talk) 09:54, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
I have already (grudgingly) conceded the point that that single passage in the article is under Arbcom's Scientology-related purview. We are discussing ways to move forward on the talk page now, regarding how to make it clear to present and future editors that that is the case, and that the list in its entirety is not under discretionary sanctions. JClemens' comment yesterday regarding granularity and mixed-element articles was insightful. Tarc ( talk) 12:59, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
That said, I also agree with IRWolfie- that, in the case which prompted your question, the use of discretionary sanctions would have been inappropriate: they are a tool to protect Wikipedia, not a club to beat your opponents over the head with.
Finally, speaking as an editor and not as an Arbitrator, after an AfD, a DRV, an AE thread and a clarification request, will you please remove List of Wikipedia controversies from your watchlist and forget about it for at least a month? If there are serious problems, someone else will certainly notice; no need for you to stay there to hold the fort. Salvio Let's talk about it! 09:41, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Sandstein at 22:11, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Recent actions I undertook to enforce the decision in the case WP:ARBSCI (the Scientology case) have given rise to an extended discussion at the ANI thread indicated above. I identify three key questions related to the case that are controversial in good faith among at least some participants to that thread:
For my views on what I understand the answers to be based on my interpretation of current policies, please refer to my ANI statement. In short: 1. yes, 2. yes, 3. no.
A response by the Committee would help to mitigate the drama and (in my view) ongoing privacy breaches generated by that thread, and would also help me and others bring their conduct more in line with the Committee's expectations, to the extent necessary. As an administrator regularly working at WP:AE, I at least would appreciate being able to review and modify any current or future sanctions by me depending on this feedback.
And while you're at it, could you please indicate when (if ever) the in-progress revision of WP:AC/DS, particularly the clarification of the appeals procedure, will be forthcoming? Thanks, Sandstein 22:11, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
I'd like to thank the five arbitrators who have commented, and all those who have offered constructive criticism here and at ANI. Attempting to summarize the arbitrators' views with respect to what I consider the salient issues:
I broadly agree with this assessment: I have now been pointed to a 2009 edit by Prioryman where they acknowledge their real name by providing a diff in which, they say, they edited a citation to their own works, and where the diff leads to a reference with the name at issue. This excludes outing in the narrow sense defined at WP:OUTING, because that policy excepts situations where "that person voluntarily had posted his or her own information, or links to such information, on Wikipedia". But, as arbitrators have emphasized, posting the name against the editor's will except where clearly justified (in COI discussions: WP:OUTING, par. 2, third sentence), is sanctionable harassment under most circumstances in my view.
But, in the light of the foregoing, Prioryman's expressed desire for administratively enforced protection from privacy-breaching harassment in the Scientology context still appears worthy of protection. Therefore I intend to impose a discretionary sanction prohibiting onwiki publication of alleged real names of Prioryman, except by or with permission of arbitrators, or (for the purpose of COI discussions) by or with permission of uninvolved administrators. All users who contributed to this or the ANI thread would be informed about this sanction, which would of course be appealable as usual. If there are any objections by arbitrators to this way of moving forward with this issue, I'd of course appreciate hearing them. Sandstein 23:00, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
@ Salvio giuliano:: In my view, a reason to treat this particular editor differently vis-à-vis all the others who have disclosed their identity onwiki is that, unlike all these other editors, this editor has been, as far as I can tell, the subject of continued efforts at on- and offwiki harassment because of longtime feuds involving Scientology and Gibraltar, another DS topic. (He may well share part or all of the blame for these disputes – I don't know anything about them – but that does not change that he, like any other editor, is entitled to edit Wikipedia without being harassed.) However, if you and other arbitrators believe this proposed sanction is not proportionate, then a way to implement the case-by-case approach you envision would be to issue further discretionary sanctions warnings to the individuals whose recent conduct leads me to believe may be among those who might engage in harassing conduct in the future; this would allow targeted ex post facto discretionary sanctions.
Jayen466 (who, the Committee has found, has previously engaged in edit-warring to advance a Scientology-related agenda, and has been subject to a Committee topic ban) is mistaken to consider, below, that the information that the editor at issue may years ago have indirectly identified himself invalidates the block of Drg55, or my other admin actions. Outing is only a specialized form of harassment. The block of Drg55 and my warning and sanction remain valid for (actual or possible) harassment, whether or not it was or would also be outing in the technical sense. Additionally, any alleged conflict of interest situation does not excuse the conduct of Drg55, because Drg55 engaged in harassment in the context of an appeal of his own topic ban for his own misconduct. This is not a situation in which any conflict of interest of another editor with respect to some other article requires any discussion at all. Furthermore, what triggered this clarification request is my sanction against The Devil's Advocate, which is not a result of Drg55's actions, but of those by The Devil's Advocate. Sandstein 15:53, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
The underlying problem is that my offense was not that I at any point disclosed Prioryman's real name. Oversighters are free to look for themselves to confirm that my comments to Sandstein only noted Prioryman's previous account, which is identified plainly on a WP:ARBSCI section I linked to in my comment, and that Prioryman had used the previous account to restore self-published information, which is backed with public diffs on the WP:ARBSCI finding I linked to in my comment. Furthermore I linked to a community noticeboard discussion from October where it was decided that mentioning Prioryman's first and last name did not constitute outing due to numerous public disclosures on-wiki. He warned me for that initial post and apparently sanctioned me just for noting Prioryman's previous account in my response to said warning. If I had noted Prioryman's last name on either occasion then I might understand his actions, even though they would still be in error, but I find it hard to accept that I can be sanctioned just for repeating what is noted at the public arbitration page being used to support the sanction.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 22:54, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
My statements at ANI speak for themselves and I suggest reading that entire thread. My concern isn't Prioryman, but the threat of Arb sanctions on unsuspecting editors. It seems to me that threatening a user with Arb sanctions should be the exception, used only when it is the best or only option, not a regular or "ordinary" course of action simply out of convenience. Since discretionary sanctions are a "fast track" exception to standard community policies, as defined by the Arbitration Committee, and not a community determined policy, they must be treated as such. There exists a high potential for abuse due to the limited avenues of review, which is why it seems they were designed to be used sparingly when there is a clear need, and with a higher standard of accountability. Because they are an exception to actual policies, they should be narrow in scope and used cautiously.
When an editor is threated to be blocked via an Arb sanction, and knows that no admin can review or overturn that block, and only the admin making the threat or the Arbitration Committee can review it, this is a big deal. There is nothing "ordinary" about it. Of course, that is the purpose, to deal with the worse problems where policy falls short. When this is done in a situation and it is clearly unneeded and overkill, it is brutal to editor retention and morale. It flatly comes across as admin bullying, even if that is not the intent. Arb sanction blocks do not have the same checks and balances that a regular block has, and most people know little of Arb, except that it is something to be avoided. Without comment on this particular case, I maintain that using the threat of an Arb sanctioned block when it is clearly not needed would be a textbook case of abuse of admin tools, as only admin can issue these warnings.
Sandstein has clearly indicated that he believes that these sanctions can and should be used any time that their use isn't a direct policy violation. I believe this is turning the system upside down. Community policy comes first, and Arb sanctions are for when regular policy is insufficient. The standard should be (or is) that Arb sanctions are somewhat narrow in scope and should only be used when less aggressive methods are not likely to be effective, or have been tried and failed. Not necessarily the last resort, but certainly not the first resort. These aren't emergency situations, and if they were, the block button is the right tool. His interpretation is a recipe for abuse, as it would allow some admin to use them liberally to simply prevent review of his blocks, thus dominate an area, while greatly limiting the scrutiny in each block. The threat of an Arb sanction is simply too powerful a tool to be used so casually. Clarity is requested. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:51, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
Drawing to your attention my comment at [16] as it deals with your privacy jurisdiction. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 00:00, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
My position is similar to TDA's above.
I made two posts to Sandstein's talk page querying his actions. These are visible in the last section of this version of his talk page. In those posts I linked to User:ChrisO, (which is and was a redirect to User:Prioryman,) but did not explicitly state any of the user's more recent account names. I also linked to the archived ANI discussion Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive773#Repeated_violation_of_RfC_restrictions_-_site_ban_proposed_for_Youreallycan and referred to User:Qwyrxian's closing summary. I pointed out that Sandstein had gone against the community's consensus or near consensus that naming Prioryman is not outing. In accordance with the spirit of the conclusion I did not give Prioryman's real name even though I think that it has become a secret as open as that of the identity of the author of Waverley at the time that Bertrand Russell wrote " On_Denoting". I then said I would take Sandstein to AN for going against the community consensus or near consensus previously expressed at ANI id the issue of Prioryman's name was the substance of his actions against TDA and Drg55. Sandstein's response was to issue me with an Arbitration warning under the Scientology case. To the best of my recollection I have never edited any articles related to Scientology and have not concerned myself with that dispute.
I therefore ask the committee:
1) When a previously uninvolved editor questions an admin and asks them to account for the use of their admin powers, is it legitimate for the admin to immediately use their admin powers against the editor who has just challenged them? If so, what are the circumstances under which this is legitimate? My view is that Sandstein has violated at least the spirit of WP:Involved by taking the actions he did against TDA and myself. He has also gone against policy and guidelines regarding admin accountability through using his powers to intimidate those who have questioned him
2) When an admin is using his powers to enforce opinions which have been demonstrated at ANI or similar locations not to have the consensus of the community, has he got the right to persist in going against that consensus and to use his admin powers against those who have pointed it out? My view is that only Arbcom, Jimbo or WMF employees taking staff actions should be allowed to be anything like as cavalier about over-ruling the community's judgment as Sandstein has been.
3) When an editor has a long history of being uninvolved in a topic area and does not say anything related to that subject, is it legitimate to use sanctions related only to that content area? My opinion is no. I have had previous disagreements with Prioryman but these have been related to the Fae case and to Gibraltarpedia and, more generally, differences of opinion over Wikipediocracy and the running of WMUK. If my conduct was problematic, and I consider that it was not, then it should only be sanctions applicable in those areas that should have been used.
I ask Arbcom to undo the actions that Sandstein has taken against me. Also, on the evidence I can see, I think that the actions against TDA should also be reversed. I have not looked at Drg55's history but I ask Arbcom to do so and consider whether at the least the grounds for various admin actions need tweaking. I also ask Arbcom to consider recent criticism in assorted places on Wikipedia of Sandstein's conduct and consider whether some guidance and advice would be of value.-- Peter cohen ( talk) 00:07, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Given that consideration is being given to protecting Prioryman's name from association with the Arbcom case. I ask that consideration be given to disassociating mine? Even though I cannot be unnotified, Sandstein's poor judgment has resulted in my name being recorded on the same page as Prioryman's website is linked and being associated with Scientology.-- Peter cohen ( talk) 10:29, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
I should like to draw attention to various aspects of policy and Arbcom rules and procedures that Sandstein has ignored
It is clear that Sandstein has only come to the committee because he has lost control of the situation and the community has become involved despite his best efforts to prevent in being allowed to express its views on this matter. His actions against me and TDA show that he lacks the ability to consider the possibility that he might be wrong. Wikipedia is littered with posts such as [
"I'm deeply, deeply tempted to jump on the desysop bandwagon as well. "ArbCom repeatedly refuses to do anything about blatantly-unsuitable admins"
— check. And cowboys such as Sandstein and ... place blocks that they obviously know are highly controversial, without advising with anybody, without warning the user, and throw primadonna fits if somebody ventures to unblock without first collecting a consensus on ANI." I wonder if the poster of that message would consider Sandstein's actions against TDA and myself to be throwing primadonna fits.--
Peter cohen (
talk)
16:42, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Would you still maintain this opinion if a) an admin party to an Arbcom case who thought that they were about to be de-sysopped went and issued assorted warnings against the Arbcoms members they blamed for their impending de-sysopping; or b) an admin who had become disillusioned with WP issued warnings against various people listed at Wikipedia:Famous_Wikipedians, picking and choosing subjects that would be particularly likely to be sensitive to the targets?-- Peter cohen ( talk) 17:34, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Here is a section of the [ thread] to which TDA and I drew Sandstein#s attention
Thanks, Prioryman, so the issue is not the old username. Is it just the surname that is the issue?--Bbb23 (talk) 23:58, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Yes, that's correct. Prioryman (talk) 23:59, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
These quotes are not from far down the thread in question.
The reference to any potential rudeness in referring to User:ChrisO is therefore a red herring. Prioryman has stated that it is not a problem within the last none months. Perhaps he has changed his mind since October, but for someone to have the mens rea to be harassing him by referring to the ChrisO identity, that person needs to be aware that Prioryman has changed his mind. As far as I know he has not, which also means that I doubt that TDA would be aware of any such hypothetical change. Therefore Sandstein's claiming that TDA was outing Prioryman by mentioning the "ChrisO account is spurious and therefore the sanction is unjustified. Further Sandstein's failure to read even as much as the first couple of screens of the ANI discussion to which two users have drawn his attention in order to find that the reference to "ChrisO" has been declared not to be problematic by the man himself shows that Sandstein has the mens rea for culpable neglect or willful negligence in his exercise of his Admin powers. He either could not be bothered to perform his duties (culpable neglect) or was so arrogant in his conviction that he is always right and that mere ordinary users did not have the right to challenge him that he did not look (willful negligence).
In either case the discussion of whether it is harassment to mention the previous userid of Prioryman is a red herring except as evidence that the people who have been mentioning it up to now haven't yet done their homework.-- Peter cohen ( talk) 22:22, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
@Alanscottwalker You have failed to notice that Sandstein made it about the person from the moment he chose not to assume good faith and not to abide by rules of admin accountability by using his against the individuals who questioned his previous use of them. By issuing warnings and by using discretionary sanctions he made this matter an issue of user conduct and not one of discussing the applicability of certain powers to a situation. Once he chose to make user conduct part of the issue, then his own conduct could not be excluded from this affair. He only sought advice from Arbcom on this matter after a substantial number of users condemned his actions at ANI.
You also ignore basic human psychology. When someone has a legitimate complaint and they are rebuffed, then the normal reaction to such behavior is to shout louder. Just look through some recent newspapers and I am sure you will find people saying about hospitals or police or other public institutions that it was not financial compensation that they wanted, rather all they wanted to do is have their complaint listened to fairly. It is the action of the authorities trying to silence the complaint that then creates all the drama that ends in the court cases and newspaper reports and hearings in parliament. It is the behavior of people like Sandstein and of people like you who back him as a reflex action that is the root cause of Wikidrama, not that of people who have been the victims of admin abuse. The Wikipedian way you praise is what has resulted in umpteen content creators walking out, in Wikipediocracy thriving and gaining press coverage of malfeasance on this site because it ignores how anger and hurt are the feelings generated in ordinary human beings who are maltreated by officialdom and that it is perfectly normal to express those feelings of anger and hurt by complaining about the abusive officials. Telling people that they have no right to express the anger and hurt just creates more anger and hurt and increases the expression of it. Dennis Brown, however, has modeled behavior that reduces drama through asking questions to clarify his understanding of what has been going on and by waiting to hear from Sandstein before reaching his conclusions about the matter. If more people at ANI followed his lead, then there would be an awful lot less drama.-- Peter cohen ( talk) 11:10, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
I don't see how this is needed. As indicated above Prioryman has not too long ago replied to an explicit question that his old id being mentioned is not an issue. No one has produced evidence that TDA and Prioryman have an intense ongoing dispute. In fact, in a recent AN thread concerning Gibraltarpedia, TDA supported Prioryman's assertion about some Gibraltarian being notable. All TDA has done to trigger Sandstein's ire is to point to evidence contrary to Sandstein's interpretation of the fact. Sandstein chose to ignore policy on admin accountability and started slapping around warnings and enforcement restrictions. If he felt that the discussion should not be on Wikipedia, Sandstein had the option of emailing TDA and carrying on the conversation offline. Sandstein rejected the civil options and decided to go all Terminator instead. There is no need for any ongoing restriction.-- Peter cohen ( talk) 12:29, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
I asked the following in my original statement and don't see much response from the Arbs. I ask them again in the hope that they might be noticed this time.
1) When a previously uninvolved editor questions an admin and asks them to account for the use of their admin powers, is it legitimate for the admin to immediately use their admin powers against the editor who has just challenged them? If so, what are the circumstances under which this is legitimate? My view is that Sandstein has violated at least the spirit of WP:Involved by taking the actions he did against TDA and myself. He has also gone against policy and guidelines regarding admin accountability through using his powers to intimidate those who have questioned him
2) When an admin is using his powers to enforce opinions which have been demonstrated at ANI or similar locations not to have the consensus of the community, has he got the right to persist in going against that consensus and to use his admin powers against those who have pointed it out? My view is that only Arbcom, Jimbo or WMF employees taking staff actions should be allowed to be anything like as cavalier about over-ruling the community's judgment as Sandstein has been.
3) When an editor has a long history of being uninvolved in a topic area and does not say anything related to that subject, is it legitimate to use sanctions related only to that content area? My opinion is no. I have had previous disagreements with Prioryman but these have been related to the Fae case and to Gibraltarpedia and, more generally, differences of opinion over Wikipediocracy and the running of WMUK. If my conduct was problematic, and I consider that it was not, then it should only be sanctions applicable in those areas that should have been used.
-- Peter cohen ( talk) 20:28, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
Leaving other issues behind, I just want to say please, please, please listen to Sandstein's last sentence, for the love of Pete. People are asking for warnings to be rescinded. I still don't believe warnings can be rescinded, as I view them as mere notifications, but since the committee has never clarified this, I cannot prove this, nor can those who believe warnings are a first step to sanctions. We asked for clarification on this months ago (I can't even remember how many). It's not right that we've had to wait this long. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 05:01, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Warnings are logged here for future reference by other admins (who may directly apply sanctions as a next step). If the warnings were inappropriate, of course you can rescind them. You just delete them from the log, or strike them. What's so difficult? Andreas JN 466 12:42, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
@ Salvio giuliano: In practice, a logged warning means that any other admin can block or ban the user without further notice. It's a target painted on the user's back. This is not theory: it's what happened to The Devil's Advocate here. If the warning was inappropriate (and it was, in both cases), it should be rescinded, simple as that, to "reset" these editors' status to the same status everyone else enjoys.
We now have two (possibly three, given that there was a COI issue in that article) arbitrators saying that even Drg55's original mention of the editor's surname was not outing, which is the official reason given for the block given in Drg55's block log. So half the arbitrators commenting here are saying that Sandstein's block rationale was invalid. This is all The Devil's Advocate and Peter cohen said. As things stand, Roger and Salvio are permitted to say it wasn't outing, without finding their names logged on the ARBSCI page by Sandstein, while The Devil's Advocate and Peter cohen stand warned and sanctioned for saying the same thing. This is not right. Please remove their warnings from the log, and rescind The Devil's Advocate's sanction. -- Andreas JN 466 23:46, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
@ Mathsci: I think we are all in agreement that Drg55 should remain topic-banned. But your trying to demonstrate that Drg55 is a wicked scoundrel is beside the point. For, to quote a man I am fond of, "it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all" ( Mencken). Censoring arbcom pages years after the fact to make something that happened in plain sight of the community unhappen is Stalinist rubbish.
The right thing to do is to sanction Drg55 for what s/he did. The wrong thing to do is to change the truth for them and everyone else just so that you can use a bigger ban hammer on them. Andreas JN 466 08:39, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
@ Mathsci: I agree that Drg55's editing was disruptive, and said as much at AE. Drg55 would need to learn a bit more about sourcing policies and come to a better understanding of what sources are and are not considered okay to cite; as it was, s/he did not respond well to entirely germane criticism of his/her sources. In light of that, declining the appeal against the topic ban seemed perfectly reasonable. Andreas JN 466 10:53, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
Sandstein has now posted the following at AN/I:
This is not encouraging. Sandstein's view that this was outing has not been supported here: Sandstein would have to warn and sanction several arbitrators for telling him the precise thing that Peter cohen and The Devil's Advocate told him. (Both said it was not outing, without repeating the name, which is precisely what several arbitrators did below.) In addition, Sandstein elides the fact that there was a very significant conflict-of-interest issue in the article at question, which is at best ignorant, and at worst disingenuous, given that the very question of whether the mere mention of the name itself is even harassment hinges on whether there is a conflict of interest or not. Furthermore, Sandstein promises that he will take unspecified further action on his own, bypassing the committee. This is nothing but a power grab by someone who dearly wanted to be an arbitrator, but has never managed to garner enough of the community's trust to actually become one, and for good reasons. Andreas JN 466 14:10, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
I object to Sandstein's reference to an "alleged" name of the editor in question. The editor in question, the former ChrisO, identified himself by name in his edits, voluntarily, and linked his old account to his new one, voluntarily. Bells can not be unrung, nor virginity restored. Once an editor identifies by name on WP, that editor is identified by name on WP. For example, I can't tomorrow start to squawk about "outing" and ask that all references to my real life name, Tim Davenport, be stricken from WP and any future reference to it result in sanctions. That's just the way it is. Sandstein is expressing an extreme view of this situation, one with plenty of precedent on Wiki to discount his position. Carrite ( talk) 16:06, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
To contrast with what Dennis is saying; warning about "Arb sanctions on unsuspecting editors" is precisely what one should do where sanctions are in force. Articles are under discretionary sanctions precisely because a "fast track" exception to standard community policies is what is needed in those topics areas covered by them, and editors in that topic area should know. These warnings should not be treated as something handed out with great deliberation and controversy, or else they lose the entire point of their existence; trying to deal with particularly problematic areas.
There is a process for getting an AE decision overturned; that a single admin can't just simply overturn it is irrelevant. Discretionary sanctions are here because they are a necessary mechanism in those topics areas. From experience, one also gets a damn sight more due process at AE than at ANI. The contrast with AE is a lynchmob. What's the alternative? Look at the ANI thread about Sandstein, where those with an axe to grind come out of the wood work and don't declare their involvement.
Sanctions, meanwhile are almost universally defined as being broad in scope across a topic area, they are not narrowly defined (I don't know of any such case of narrowly defined DS scope), and its uninvolved admins that look at the case. The checks and balances are stronger for AE than ANI, and there is a clearly defined process.
.. and it's not just admins that can warn about DS, the guidelines were ambiguous last time I checked and non-admins have given warnings, IRWolfie- ( talk) 17:47, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Already we have a situation where there are very few admins who are willing to patrol AE and discretionary-sanctioned subject areas, and the Committee should be extremely careful in their comments and actions in this case, since the result could be that even fewer admins will be willing to police it, which will leave a gaping hole in the enforcement of ArbCom decisions. Unless the Committee is prepared to take personal responsibility for the enforcement of all its decisions, it needs admins such as Sandstein, whose work ought to be praised and not denigrated. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 00:03, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
There seems to be a lot differing opinions about whether notifying/warning an editor about discretionary sanctions is really a warning or just a simple notification. Some editors believe that it's simply a notification. Other editors believe that it is a warning after some alleged misconduct. IIRC, I've been told by at least one admin that a warning/notification (whichever it is) is best given by an uninvolved admin who patrols the topic space. I don't know what the correct answers to these questions to these questions are, but I do know that different editors/admins answer them in different ways. It would be nice, and probably best done separately from the current dispute here, for us to reach consensus on these questions. Thanks. A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 02:32, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
According to WP:AC/DS,
“ | Warnings should be clear and unambiguous, link to the decision authorising the sanctions, identify misconduct and advise how the editor may mend their ways | ” |
Can the Committee please confirm (or reject):
Also, can the committee clarify who should make such warnings/notifications? Can only admins do this? Or can regular editors do this? Does it matter whether the admin or the editor is involved or uninvolved in the dispute?
There seems to be many differing opinions on each of these questions. Can the Committee please provide clarification? If the Committee would prefer that such clarifications be separate from the current request, I can file a separate Request for Clarification. Thanks. A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 02:12, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
The original enforcement request concerning Drg55 was lodged by Prioryman. One of the recent diffs presented there [19] questioned whether, like MartinPoulter, Prioryman was, "an unreconstructed neo fascist participant from alt.religion.scientology". Drg55 further stated, "our critics are generally insane" and "I personally exposed quite a few attackers of Scientology with weapon of truth, and truth does defeat lies." It was on the basis of edits like that that Drg55 was indefinitely topic banned from all edits relating to Scientology or religion in general. Drg55's appeal was rejected, because of the non-neutral nature of his edits, as EdJohnston commented. During that appeal Drg55 again made comments discussing Prioryman's activities off-wikipedia. He did so repeatedly even after receiving warnings, the first of which was from Future Perfect at Sunrise. [20] That resulted in Sandstein's indefinite block. The objections to the block did not address in any way the problems with Drg55's editing. Instead there were wikilawyering edits suggesting that the identification could be deduced from "join-the-dots" sleuthing on wiki. However, Drg55's comments about both MartinPoulter and Prioryman were unambiguously attacks on and harassment of both editors. The wikilawyering about outing on public noticeboards has had the unfortunate and probably unintentional effect of continuing possible harassment. The two logged notifications of WP:ARBSCI seem fairly standard in the circumstances. Effectively that advice was ignored and the disruption initiated by Drg55 has continued. The extensive catalogue of criticisms of Sandstein by Peter cohen on this page seems completely disproportionate to the logged notification or warning. Mathsci ( talk) 05:04, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
It seems that most arbitrators commenting below have missed the fact that whereas Peter Cohen was "only" warned, in the The Devil's Advocate case, the warning was followed by an actual sanction imposed. I think that there is only an academic distinction between an admin officially AE-warning an editor not to do something and officially AE-sanctioning him with a ban prohibiting said editor from doing said something. Sandstein's warnings were not mere notifications of the existence of some Arbitration case. Both editors warned were already aware of that, and Sandstein was aware that they were aware. The two editors were in fact sanctioned for being too aware of some content of that Arbitration. Downplaying the obvious stifling intent with which Sandstein placed the two warnings and the one topic ban he subsequently issued to TDA as a mere notification shows the vast chasm between how this is perceived by the editor-peons and the lofty admins/arbs on this page and at ANI. And people wonder why most editors see admins as an unaccountable Old Boys' club... By the way, Arbcom has yet to address Sandstein's subsequent "Request for preventative measures" made on this very page, in which he asks that the Scientology Arbitration case be redacted so that certain editors may be no longer be "outed" by linking to it. Someone not using his real name ( talk) 07:38, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
I would like to second A Quest for Knowledge's request for clarification for when and how DS notices/warnings are to be given, and express hope that will be in the policy that Salvio refers to below. As presently stated, step number 4 of the DS process states, "4. Warnings should be clear and unambiguous, link to the decision authorising the sanctions, identify misconduct and advise how the editor may mend their ways". That formulation is unclear as to whether actual misconduct is needed before the warning can be given or whether it is possible to give it (a) merely because an editor is either merely editing in the area to which DS apply or (b) because the editor is engaging in conduct which is questionable, but which is not clearly misconduct (e.g. a very slow motion edit war consisting of clearly revert–y edits stretched over days or weeks or conduct which is viciously curt and abrupt but short of being clear incivility). I fall on the side that they ought to be able to be given merely as notices. If these areas are important enough to establish DS's for, then these warnings ought to be no more than statements that, in effect, "We're not saying that you're doing anything wrong for sure, but your behavior has caught our eye and we want you to know what you have at stake." The alternative would be to establish that a notice must be given first, perhaps by templating the article talk page (as far as I know, the talk page templates currently have no actionable effect), then make the current individual-editor templates last-chance type warnings per se once that notice has been in place for a period of time. Regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 16:38, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
Though this is not directly relevant to the Scientology case, I concur with TransporterMan above that we need some sort of clarity on the process of notifying an editor about discretionary sanctions in a topic area. In particular, arbs need to clarify:
My personal inclination is to treat these notifications as purely informational in nature and editors who edit in a sanctioned area should be notified of the existence of these sanctions by any editor. That way, it is clear to an uninvolved admin that an editor knows about the sanctions and we won't need to get into extended discussions of the sort we're seeing here - i.e., when someone's behavior is wrong enough for sanctions to be issued. Clear and unequivocal guidance from arbitrators is, I think, essential. -- regentspark ( comment) 15:52, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
In terms of making people aware of discretionary sanctions, I think there needs to be a distinction made between "notice", "general (or friendly) warning" and "specific (or formal) warning".
Sanctions must be preceded by one or more of the above or other evidence of awareness of the existence of discretionary sanctions (e.g. active participation in the arbcom case or community discussion that authorised them, leaving a warning for another user, etc), except in the case of gross or wilful disruption.
What level of notice/warning has been left before, how long ago it was and the nature of the disruption should be taken into consideration when deciding whether to sanction or futher warn. If a user has only received one notice, it was a long time ago and they haven;t been active in the topic area recently another notice would probably be appropriate for minor issues. However for gross disruption very shortly after receiving a notice sanctions without further warning are probably justified. Users should not get more than one specific warning about the same actions/specific area unless they are separated by at least several months with no sanctions and little to no editing in the topic area between - the warning hasn't worked and sanctions are needed. Similarly a user shouldn't normally be getting more than two or three at absolute most general warnings before sanctions.
Thryduulf (
talk)
15:06, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
I almost never comment on these matters. But it seems the trend of some views expressed here are so contrary to what I regard as a community-based way of doing things that I must say something.
I think I am in all this essentially agreeing with Dennis, though I may be stating it even more strongly than he would endorse. DGG ( talk ) 00:43, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
I am largely in agreement with DGG's analysis of the situation, but I wish to add one note. Well, two notes actually.
Admins are not supposed to be exalted users beyond the judgement of more mortal editors, but that's the crux of what happened here: two ordinary editors were threatened for questioning Sandstein's judgement in an issue. It's one thing to refuse to reconsider, though I think that to do so as a matter of course demonstrates an unbecoming and disruptive arrogance. But be that as it may, neither response outed anyone, whether or not one thinks that Prioryman's identity is public knowledge. It's abundantly clear that there is a considerable difference of opinion as to that last issue, so it's hard for me to take seriously the need for discipline in raising it as an issue. But it is quite clear to me that the function of ARBSCI in this is abusive, perhaps inadvertently so, but nonetheless disruptive. It seems that Prioryman has become a protected person because it is alleged somewhere that he has some connection to public critique/defense of Scientology, and therefore any discussion of him can be slapped down with AE even if Scientology itself doesn't figure in the dispute at hand; and furthermore, if anyone complains about how some admin has handled such a dispute, the complainants can be summarily disciplined by that admin. Heck, if I wanted to cultivate the same protection, I could publish some anti-Scientology tracts off-wiki, let slip that I authored them (without even really revealing my true name), and then cultivate some admin to defend me.
And in the end I feel that I shouldn't have to go through this elaborate an analysis. Allowing admins to discipline people simply for disagreeing with them has such an obvious potential for abuse that it should be forbidden absolutely. ARBSCI has nothing to do with that. Mangoe ( talk) 14:24, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
Furthermore, Sandstein, in my opinion, your approach to discretionary sanctions is way too legalistic. Our decisions are not legal documents and cannot be interpreted using the same construction rules a lawyer would use to interpret an act of Parliament: as far as I'm concerned, I expect people to interpret and enforce our decisions using commonsense, never forgetting that IAR is one of the five pillars. Not to mention that discretionary sanctions are always "authorised" and never made compulsory, which means that an administrator should use his discretion to determine whether the imposition of restrictions is the best way to stop the disruption an editor is causing; if not, then nobody is obliged or expected to impose a discretionary sanction.
Also, I believe that the sanction you imposed on The Devil's Advocate was not warranted and, what's more, I'm not sure it was validly imposed (I'm not sure questioning a sanction you've imposed can be considered making edits about a topic, not even using a very broad construction of the clause).
Finally, and I know I disagree with my colleagues here, since the link between Prioryman and ChrisO has been disclosed many times on wiki, including by ArbCom, to say that the two accounts are the same person is not outing. Moreover, *in my opinion*, not even saying what the "O" stands for is outing because it was indirectly acknowledged by the subject and was the basis of an ArbCom's finding of fact. Again only in my opinion, WP:OUTING only protects those who try to protect their identity: no policy on Wikipedia demands that editors play dumb... Referring to Prioryman's name may be harassment, when done maliciously, with the sole intent of causing him distress, but that's the exception, not the other way around. Salvio Let's talk about it! 09:27, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
@ Newyorkbrad: which may not be the Committee's, is that a warning may be brought up for review but only where it was clearly undeserved and inappropriate., almost every warned editor thinks the warning was clearly undeserved; your limit would be pretty much useless and would require us to waste our time all the same, even if only to make sure that the warning in question was appropriate and deserved. I don't think that's a productive use of our limited resources. Salvio Let's talk about it! 21:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
@ A Quest For Knowledge: & @ TransporterMan: yes, those aspects (and others) will be clarified hoperfully soon. Salvio Let's talk about it! 09:35, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
1. Back in the day, the editor's real life identity was common knowledge within the Scientology topic. He regularly linked to sites mentioning it and acquiesced when it was used on-wiki. At that time though, the applicable policies were not as they are today and current policies acknowledge an individual's wish for a degree of personal privacy. It follows, therefore, that while referring to him by his real name is not outing, such references may well be intended to have a chilling effect or to cause discomfort.
2. In my view, it's overreach to use discretionary sanctions for matters which are only coincidentally related to the topic and which can be dealt with satisfactorily underr existing policy. I haven't looked at this situation closely enough to see whether that is the case here.
3. Discretionary sanctions are intended to provide fast track remedies to contain disruption arising from dysfunctional conduct in relation to the topic. They do this by sidestepping the usual community dispute resolution processes. Because they give administrators greater powers, and limit appeal options, they should be applied conservatively.
Otherwise, I agree entirely with Salvio's point. Someone can no more be unnotified than they can take back a sneeze. Roger Davies talk 17:31, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Francis Schonken at 20:16, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
First proposal: retracted, obsolete -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 08:25, 29 May 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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Subject was referred to Talk:Rick Ross (consultant) by OTRS. In order to proceed it should be best that the situation resulting from the 2009 Scientology case is cleared. See Talk:Rick Ross (consultant)#Discussion. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 20:16, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
Note that my only stake in this is dealing with WP:BLP issues under WP:COI conditions (not my COI, the COI of Ross/173.72.57.223), without my current actions risking to be ultimately invalidated for a technical reason related to a past arbcom case. I think ArbCom can do something to avoid such risk. Some creativity may be needed, my creative proposal to amend the Scientology case is only one among several possibilities to iron this out. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 11:23, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
Follow-up on Remedy 26: User:Rick A. Ross has come forward to the Arbitration Committee, which makes "... User:Rick A. Ross, indefinitely blocked and redirected ..." unactionable as an enforcement action of the Scientology case as long as the editor edits with a single account.
I was instructed by Matthew at the Wikipedia Support Team to go to my bio page and use the Talk Page to discuss problems there. My name is Rick Alan Ross and some years ago I may have entered the name Rick A. Ross on Wikipedia. I have never gone by the name Rick Allen Ross. I have no general interest in Wikipedia other than the bio about me at Wikipedia (Rick Ross consultant). My concern is that my bio has been used as a convenient propaganda platform for those who don't like my work to attack me. My bio is not NPOV and has a great deal of biased POV editing. That editing is often misleading, intentionally omits certain relevant historical facts and information and generally reflects the slanted POV of certain anonymous editors at Wikipedia. I have repeatedly complained about this matter to the Wikipedia Support Team. Again, Matthew recommended that I specifically explain this at my bio Talk Page. I have followed his directions and posted my points of concern with supporting references and sources at the Talk Page per Mathew's instuctions. Now I am somehow here. Excuse me, but I don't understand all the Wikipedia protocols and rules. Please explain what need to be done to resolve this and address my concerns.
Rick Alan Ross 173.72.57.223 ( talk) 16:32, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
As the user involved with the OTRS ticket, let me clarify something here. As the original user has effectively outed themselves, from what I have seen, this appears to be genuine. They do not have access to either of the accounts, or the email addresses used to create them, and their passwords no longer work. I fail to see how this is an unreasonable amendment - they could always make a new account if needed. As they are unfamiliar with Wikipedia, we should, IMO, be a tad more cautious, and the seeming bad knowledge may well be genuine. Mdann52 ( talk) 20:47, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
A BLP subject wants to provide input into the content of the article about himself, which he thinks has issues of balance and weighting. (I agree that the article has issues, although this isn't the place to go into them; I am also less than certain that this article should exist at all.) He seeks to adhere to our guidance about COI editing, which urges article subjects to disclose their identity and confine themselves to the talkpage, but is being tripped up because he is not an experienced Wikipedian and does not understand the fine points of our decision in this case from six years ago. My impression is that Mdann52 is correct and that the editor does not have access to his vintage-2008 accounts, perhaps because he does not recall the passwords, perhaps for some other reason. My suggestion is that an arbitrator reach out to Rick Ross directly, confirm his identity (if not already done), and explain exactly what is required of him. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 20:55, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm very familiar with the standard OTRS advice to BLP subjects - if memory serves, I assembled the boilerplate myself - and this request is precisely in line with it. I don't think we need to amend anything, we can just WP:IAR since it is obvious who is behind the IP and there is no attempt at deception (quite the opposite). Guy ( Help!) 09:29, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
It would seem trivial for OTRS to create a new account with a suitable name, in the normal way, and pass the details onto Mr Ross. Job Done? All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough, 20:11, 31 May 2015 (UTC).
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Elvey at 01:45, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
No user accounts to notify. IPs are ephemeral.
The ruling states in relevant part (bolding mine):
8) Any current or future editor who, after this decision is announced, makes substantial edits to any Scientology-related articles or discussions on any page is directed:
Despite this, edits to an article under discretionary sanctions as part of this case (and its talk page) are being made largely from a half dozen or so IPs, and the IPs are all on the same UK mobile ISP (except for one from a UK fixed line ISP) per an admin.
Clarification requested on this point : I read the ruling as saying editing needs to be from a single user account, not multiple anonymous IPs. Is it thus proper at this point to file for AE? (Why or why not?)
I think it is but am being cautious. It seems to me the appropriate enforcement action is simply to apply semi protection to the two pages. No need to deal with individual IPs. Support would be diffs from the page histories, though the page histories themselves are very readable for this purpose. There's a DS notice at the top of the talk page.
I'm refraining from characterizing the nature or motivation of edits or person(s); you are strongly urged do the same, so this can remain succinct and be dispatched quickly.
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Original discussion Initiated by Sfarney at 20:19, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
On June 1, 2016, I was Topic Banned from Scientology for one year on the authority of ARBSCI, Clause 5.1 (WP:SPA). [23] [24] The Wordsmith imposed the ban. Though the ban cited ArbCom authority, Wordsmith agrees the foundation for that authority is incorrect. Additionally, Wordsmith concealed a personal conflict of interest on the topic and should not have administered the AE.
I respectfully ask this Committee to cancel or modify the topic ban.
1. Wordsmith agreed my account is not an SPA and struck that language from the ban. [28] [29] When that justification was removed, ArbCom authority was removed, but Wordsmith maintains the topic ban. [30]
2. Sanction was based on evidence that later proved false -- the ban was significantly based on nonpublic information.
A significant portion of the ban rationale rests on nonpublic evidence that I have privately communicated to the Arbitration Committee, and consulted an Arb confidentially with the evidence before doing anything. In fact I had forgotten about Remedy 5.1; the Arbitrator I asked for advice suggested doing that ... [31]
Later, Wordsmith admitted the nonpublic evidence was not true. [32]
3. Wordsmith's ban was a do-over sanction. In the May 26 AE against Prioryman, Wordsmith wrote, "This request seems ripe for a Boomerang … at a minimum an admonishment to the filing editor." [33] Dennis Brown refused to admonish me and filed only an advisement. That action drew an effective line -- the conduct at issue was addressed by admin sanction. [34]
A week later (June 1), Wordsmith reached into the same timespan for evidence and imposed the topic ban, modifying the sanction imposed by Brown. Brown protested that his advisement was already in place.
Some of this is a little bit old. If this had happened after I gave my warning the other day, I would topic ban or block on the spot, but I did give a fairly detailed warning less than a week ago, so behavior since then is my primary focus. Not sure that to do here, would like to hear what other admins think. [35]
Thus, Wordsmith's sanction contradicts Modification by Administrators, [36] but Brown agreed to the modification because: "I trust The Wordsmith when they say they have private information that amply justified the action." [37]
When Wordsmith later admitted the "information" was false, the modification policy implicitly required Wordsmith to notify Brown of the error, and either drop the topic ban or seek permission again to modify Brown's sanction. But Wordsmith did not, and the anomaly was transformed from error to deceit.
4. Wordsmith had personal interest (not Wikipedia interest) in the ban. Editor Prioryman brought the complaint to AE and canvassed Wordsmith to preside. [38] Prioryman is the name-changed admin ChrisO, [39], involved and sanctioned in the ARBSCI. [40] [41] An arbitrator selected by one party in a dispute is not appropriate or neutral, and selection of Wordsmith was not random. Wordsmith is personally and deeply involved with Scientology as a leader/organizer of the anti-Scientology group, Project Chanology.
Wordsmith provides the evidence on Wikipedia pages:
POSSIBLE COI DISCLOSURE: I own the Boston Anonymous forums and am a sysop, crat, checkuser and oversight on their wiki. Take anything I have to say with a grain of salt, and always verify for yourselves. Firestorm Talk 16:18, 21 May 2009 (UTC) [45]
The word " crat" commonly means "bureaucrat", i.e., a manager, ruler. [46] [47] The statement is signed by Firestorm, who was later renamed Wordsmith. [48] See also the header: [49]
The virulent partisanship of Anonymous/Chanology is told in the group's 2008 founding manifesto video, which promised to destroy and "systematically dismantle" the Church of Scientology. [50] See transcript. [51]
An owner/leader/organizer of a group sworn to promote or destroy the subject cannot neutrally administer the article(s) or involved editors. It is a clear COI. When I suggested Wordsmith had a COI, Wordsmith evasively denied he has a COI because he is "not a Scientologist":
Firstly personal experience is not relevant to WP:INVOLVED, but I will state for the record that I am not a Scientologist, have never been a Scientologist, and none of my family or close friends are Scientologists. I merely take an active interest in their history, policies and doctrine to consider myself a subject-matter expert, which is why I made that comment on the first AE. [52]
The statement changes from evasion to deceit with these words: "I merely take an active interest ..." In addition to owner/leader/manager/crat of the Chanology forum, Wordsmith was apparently theorist and ideologue of Chanology:
It is safe to say that I'm probably the most well-versed Wikipedian on the topic of Scientology, moreso than most actual Scientologists. [53]
5. Supplementary info: Another editor has submitted a letter to ArbCom with supplementary evidence on this and related matters. I have forwarded that letter to ArbCom as well to ensure it is linked to this case.
I respectfully ask for the Arb who recommended the ban
[54] to recuse from this appeal.
As shown above, the ban was imposed without reason, authority, or justification. It was based on a false issue and false evidence, and administered by an admin who had a significant hidden COI on the topic. I ask for the ban to be cancelled.
Because of multiple secondary sources don't cover it, it probably is misunderstood by the editor or simply not true. Feoffer added an image that he took from some German blog with unknown authenticity. I had it removed with an ANI request under the WP:COPYVIO rule because I could not persuade the TEAM that the authenticity could not be verified and was a real problem.Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources.[12] Red flags that should prompt extra caution include:
(x) surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources;
(x) challenged claims that are supported purely by primary or self-published sources or those with an apparent conflict of interest;
(x) reports of a statement by someone that seems out of character, or against an interest they had previously defended;
(x) claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community, or that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions, especially in science, medicine, history, politics, and biographies of living people. This is especially true when proponents say there is a conspiracy to silence them.
Final Address to the Arbitration Committee: It looks now as though you will ban me to keep me silent on these issues. I remind you of Caesar's advice to judges:
When you judge fairly and according to the law, you bring honor to yourselves, you strengthen the law, and you bring peace to the land. But when you judge unfairly, when you favor yourselves and your friends, you bring contempt on yourselves and you erode the law; and ultimately, you destroy the society you were hired to govern.
In this proceeding, you were shown a number of outrages against Wikipedia:
If the Arbitration Committee members decide they will do nothing about any of this except punish me for "significant disruption" of this operation, if they so publicly practice selective enforcement of Wikipedia policies, they will bring contempt on Arbcom from the editors in Wikipedia-ville, damage the reputation of Wikipedia with the public, and chart (or are they continuing along?) a course of corruption from which Wikipedia might never recover.
It is a choice you should consider carefully. Grammar's Li'l Helper Talk 07:34, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
Please note that the unacceptable sourcing is "going on a lot here." That is the same objection I have been voicing since April -- and notably, one of the same editing violations for which Prioryman (aka ChrisO) was sanctioned in 2009. And note also, the reviewer's criticism is followed by yet another WP:IDHT from DamOTclese, asserting that "dozens" of editors (some of whom he personally canvassed [80]) liked the article. Perhaps the Committee will take a new look at this situation wherein my real, factual, Wiki-policy objections are being sanctioned with a topic-ban and characterized as a "significant disruption", while the same WP:TEAM of editors cannot understand the problem. Who should be editing Wikipedia? Grammar's Li'l Helper Talk 22:29, 16 August 2016 (UTC)More seriously, a lot of the sourcing here isn't in keeping with what Wikipedia requires. Whereas an academic study of a subject can use and cite primary sources (original lectures, a promotional video etc), Wikipedia can't. Wikipedia has to rely largely on secondary and tertiary sources. So, if we have an academic publication saying "In a 1961 lecture, he said" then we can cite that academic, secondary source. What we can't really do is cite an (unpublished) original source, but that's what is going on a lot here. Midnightblueowl ( talk) 16:19, 9 August 2016 (UTC) [79]
There are a number of factual errors and misrepresentations above. However, I will acknowledge that I was involved with a local group affiliated with Project Chanology, in a minor capacity running their internal wiki (as I was the only one familiar with MediaWiki software) for a few months from 2008 to 2009. I must commend Sfarney, as he keeps better track of my own past than I do. The site (and indeed, the entire movement) had been defunct for years. I hadn't mentioned it because it was so long ago and my role so minor that I had forgotten about it. Does minor participation in an activist group 7-8 years ago open up issues of WP:INVOLVED? I'll leave that to the Arbitrators to decide, and will respect that decision.
However, I do still believe that my topic ban was based on sound judgment and not bias. Consensus at AE and again at the noticeboard agreed with it. Sfarney's hostility and poor behavior in both instances further reinforced that belief. I stand by my sanction, and I do believe that the community has already heard this appeal and upheld it on the merits. I don't see what another bite at the apple is gong to achieve, but I welcome input. The Wordsmith Talk to me 01:05, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
Sfarney is doing an excellent imitation of a squid, blowing out clouds of black ink to hide the real issue at hand here: did the evidence of misconduct in the original AE request merit a topic ban? He doesn't address his own conduct above in any way other than to deny that anyone has ever found fault with it ("No one can say that I have broken any of the canons of Wikipedia"), which is obviously ludicrous in the light of the multiple critical threads he has attracted on his talk page regarding a variety of topics and his previous topic ban from Rick Alan Ross. If the topic ban was justified - and it clearly was - then everything else is moot and mere tendentious wikilawyering of the kind which those who have interacted with him have sadly become accustomed to. Prioryman ( talk) 11:58, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
I don't expect to comment further unless this account is pinged by an arb. I doubt it will be needed.
This is all moot. The community upheld the ban, any cause of action has to be about that WP:AN confirmation, where the community essentially took possession of the ban. Unless you can show fault in that discussion, there is nothing to talk about. Speaking as someone who tried DESPERATELY to not topic ban you, who choose an admonition the first time you were brought to AE, and has watched you implode since then, I suggest simply waiting the ban out. The community upheld the ban. That the process was sloppy doesn't really matter, we aren't a bureaucracy. Farmer Brown ( talk) (aka:Dennis Brown) 21:41, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
I have to bring up Robert McClenon's statement given here that "continuing to appeal is vexatious litigation." Yes, editors should be allowed to appeal bans but the community is also allowed to affirm those bans and should not have to continually answer "yes, one year is still one year" every few weeks in a different spot each time. Standard discretionary sanctions have been allowed since 2012, the ban was converted to that, and uninvolved community consensus affirms that ban. To try to appeal on a technicality that has already been ironed over is nothing but Wiki-lawyering. Honestly, at this point, the only room I'm seeing between modifying the ban (which I can't see happening) and blocking Sfarney is Sfarney withdrawing this ASAP. Ian.thomson ( talk) 21:03, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
I'm not sure why I keep getting dragged in to comment on this difficult editor, this should be a no-brainer. When Wikipedia has problem Scientology editors, one either (1) Topic bans the editor/sock or (2) blocks their IP addresses. When there is extensive WP:IDHT and WP:NH and the same issues which have repeatedly been resolved keep getting dredged-up over and over again, we have procedures for a final resolution to the problem editors which do that, and in editor Sfarney's case, a topic ban is the obvious solution, and any appeal should be dismissed.
At the same time we must not discourage volunteer editors from donating their time and effort to Wikipedia to improve articles, so editors and admins need to work hard to convince problem editors that they must stop being problems while also asking them to "move on" and find more productive use of their volunteer time. Editor time has value, we don't want to lose editors that contribute beneficially!
Also editors and admins who look at problem editors' behavior also need to understand Scientology's history and contentious behavior to some degree inasmuch as if they want to expend some time understanding the motivations of Scientology-based problem editors, looking up "Dev-T" (Develop Traffic) and Scientology's written procedures on "Outproducing" sources of factual, informative, testable, falsifiable information on Scientology -- which Wikipedia certainly is -- helps understand some of the WP:IDHT and WP:NH behavior.
We need Sfarney to stay working on Wikipedia while at the same time we need him or her to stop wasting other editor's valuable time. We need to be polite and professional when imposing topic bans (after being polite and professional addressing editor's proposed text updates and issues) and if that does not work, we need account bans and/or IP bans, that's how we resolve things. If Sfarney does not understand why he was topic banned, that is a failing with other editors and admins not being able to convey why. That he's appealing his topic ban seems to indicate that we have failed to impart such understanding.
Don't remove the topic ban yet please, don't ban Sfarney. We need all the editors we can get here. Damotclese ( talk) 16:54, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Salvio, where precisely would be the bar? Because I am willing to lay money down that if an (otherwise perfectly respectable) admin was found to have been a scientologist and sanctioned someone in the scientology topic area, this would have been considered 'involved' and overturned within 5 minutes. I will paraphrase (slightly) my comment from the ANI: "I have a few books on cars. That wouldnt disqualify me from closing contentious discussions on cars. If I owned a series of extremely hard to get and in-depth documents (primary and secondary) on morris minors, declared I was the most knowledgeable wikipedian about morris minors AND had previously declared another editor was correct in their morris minor edits - I should not be closing any dispute (in my capacity as an administrator) related to said morris minors." If Sfarney is correct in his evidence of Wordsmith's previous associations with anti-scientology groups, I am not actually sure what would actually satisfy you regarding 'involved' in an off-wiki sense. Can you honestly say if the POV's were reversed, we would be here? Only in death does duty end ( talk) 17:16, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Sfarney's hostility and poor behavior are dominating his defense. Having worked with him in other area's where he has been extremely difficult and uncooperative I suggest, keep the full year or block him from editing as Slade Farney is not showing any sign of stopping tendentious editing in general. Earl King Jr. ( talk) 04:16, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
The question then becomes whether The Wordsmith was involved. Again, historically, when involvement has been argued on the basis of off-wiki conduct, the bar has ben set rather high, for various reasons, including a desire to prevent both opposition research and a chilling effect on admins. In this case, in my opinion, that high bar is far from reached.
For all these reasons, as far as I'm concerned, this appeal should be rejected. Salvio Let's talk about it! 16:55, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
I respectfully ask for the Arb who recommended the ban [81] to recuse from this appeal.I clarified earlier with The Wordsmith that he was referring to me in the linked comment, and I think also that there is some miscommunication surrounding that conversation. Wordsmith contacted me in May with concerns about Sfarney, and sent a few links. The conversation continued as follows (posted with Wordsmith's permission):
IRC log |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
31/05/16 10:58<[Wordsmith]> I'm not sure if that's conclusive enough for an indef, or if a regular admin should even be doing that rather than an Arbblock 31/05/16 10:59<[Wordsmith]> The editor's contribs show extensive pro-Scientology POV pushing 31/05/16 11:01<GorillaWarfare> The easiest option is probably to TBAN per r an indef, or if a regular admin should even be doing that rather than an Arbblock │10:59 <[Wordsmith]> The editor's contribs show extensive pro-Sc 31/05/16 11:01<GorillaWarfare> whoa 31/05/16 11:01<GorillaWarfare> bad paste 31/05/16 11:01<GorillaWarfare> TBAN per /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Scientology#Single_purpose_accounts_with_agendas 31/05/16 11:01<GorillaWarfare> Assuming he fits those criteria 31/05/16 11:02<GorillaWarfare> But you could also send your evidence to ArbCom and we could look into a block/ban 31/05/16 11:02<[Wordsmith]> He's made some contributions to chemistry, but the bulk are Scientology-related 31/05/16 11:04<[Wordsmith]> I'm more than willing to ban under that SPA remedy and DS, I just won't mention the connection. I'll send the evidence to Arbcom, and if he appeals I'll put it on hold pending examinatin of private evidence 31/05/16 11:06<GorillaWarfare> Sounds good 31/05/16 11:06<[Wordsmith]> Thanks for the advice 31/05/16 11:07<GorillaWarfare> No problem :) |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by GeneralNotability at 22:07, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
I ask that ArbCom clarify whether remedy 2 of the Scientology case, " Church of Scientology IP addresses blocked", is still in effect. As far as I can tell, it is de facto not enforced - this quarry (credit to AntiCompositeNumber for the query) shows that there haven't been rangeblocks mentioning Scientology since 2010, with one individual IP block in 2011 (most were applied in 2009 following the case), and most of the blocks should have expired in 2014 since they were set for five-year durations. Further, the IP ranges assigned to the Church of Scientology have changed since the case; the church owns ASNs 7914 and 25823 (credit to wizzito for identifying the relevant ASNs) and none of the ranges owned by those ASNs are currently blocked. Blocking these IPs to enforce the remedy is trivial, but I believe ArbCom should consider whether this remedy is still necessary to prevent disruption. Given that the bans expired years ago but we have not seen significant disruption, I'm inclined to say that it is not (and that our normal community processes, like COIN, should be enough to contain disruption if it should resume in the future), but I've got no problem with applying the blocks if the Committee believes they are necessary. I just don't like being in this in-between state of "remedy is on the books but is not being enforced".
Actually, looking at the query linked, the last 2 IPs blocked for Scientology reasons were 216.60.18.40 (registered to the Bank of Oklahoma in Tulsa, Oklahoma; blocked 1 month in November 2018) and 138.130.234.8 (registered to Telstra Internet in Sydney, Australia; blocked 24 hours June 2018). 92.37.9.164 (registered to A1 in Ljubljana, Slovenia) was the last block mentioning this ArbCom decision. Neither of these are registered to Scientology. wizzito | say hello! 22:23, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
There are a bit more than this, but overall, my point is that this rule is outdated and these IPs barely edit or don't at all (at least anonymously, I'd 100 percent support a checkuser for some of these ranges) wizzito | say hello! 22:45, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
I've been an active watcher (and sometimes reverter) at the top level Scientology article. I think that there is still some more wiki-saavy efforts by them there but the old IP protection is probably not needed or relevant. Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 23:02, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Remedy 2 of the Scientology arbitration case, "Church of Scientology IP addresses blocked", is hereby rescinded. Any remaining blocks currently in force may be lifted or appealed according to the unblocking policy.
Enacted - firefly ( t · c ) 11:30, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Remedy 4.1 of the Scientology case ("Discretionary sanctions authorised") is rescinded. Any actions previously taken in accordance with the discretionary sanctions authorization remain in force and are governed by the discretionary sanctions procedure.
For this motion there are 14 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 8 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Enacted - GeneralNotability ( talk) 00:04, 2 February 2022 (UTC)