It concerns me that a couple of people continue to characterise this as a dispute between Neutrality and Rex. There were six other people signing the request for a temporary order, and I'm quite offended by the characterisation that we would all "need to be banned". I've reverted Rex a grand total of four times, IIRC. I believe I've been pretty civil, as have numerous other people who have tried to reason with him. If there are issues with Neutrality's conduct here, then fine - but deal with that seperately, please.
That said, to be fair to Rex, his conduct outside of the John Kerry-related disputes hasn't, as far as I've seen, been overly problematic, so Fred's proposal makes enough sense. Ambi 05:04, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Rex071404 filed a cross-complaint against me, based solely on my having supported the Request for Arbitration. I answered that charge in my "Statement by affected party". Now, the first proposed finding of fact appears to contain one or two different charges against me, ones not previously called to my attention. I don't know the procedure well enough (this being my first arbitration) to know whether these are just passing observations, or points upon which some decision against me might be based, and whether I'm supposed to answer them, etc. I'd appreciate some guidance.
The proposed finding states that I, along with others, "have in the heat of the US Presidential election focused on the article John Kerry and carried the issues of the campaign into the encyclopedia article in detail. See [1] and [2]"
1. If "focused" means it's on my Watchlist, and that I've devoted a lot of energy to it, of course that's true. In fact, I joined in the RfAr precisely because, since Rex's arrival, I've had to devote way too much time to the John Kerry article just to keep it from turning into an anti-Kerry diatribe. On the other hand, if "focused" means that my sole objective at Wikipedia has been to advance a political agenda -- which is close to what Rex admitted about himself -- then it's not true. Despite the huge drains on my time and energy occasioned by Rex's conduct, I've also spent time during this same period on editing nonpolitical articles, on identifying VfD candidates and voting on others (along with a CfD), on cleaning up vandalism, and on a bit of newbie-helping here and there. Is there a serious charge against me of overconcentration on John Kerry, so that I should be citing these other edits on the Evidence page?
2. If carrying campaign issues "into the encyclopedia article in detail" means too much detail, then again I have to know if I should be responding. I agree that not every detail goes in. It's a judgment call. There was too much detail about the SBVT (an anti-Kerry organization), detail that I thought belonged in the SBVT article. Therefore, in this comment on Talk I proposed summary language for the John Kerry article. My draft was accepted (by everyone but Rex, of course), and the making of this change helped remove detail clutter and focus the main article. On the other hand, I'll confess that my suggestion expressly included leaving in Hibbard's attack on Kerry. Similarly, after the ArbCom had blocked Rex, I argued in this comment for the "anti-Kerry" position of leaving in Elliott's attack on him. I tried to put politics aside (yes, I'm for Kerry) and make my best judgments about whether each fact did or didn't merit inclusion in an encyclopedic summary of Kerry's career. I thought Hibbard and Elliott's anti-Kerry statements qualified, i.e., were not excessive detail. On a side issue, when Rex made this comment that the text on Kerry's family background was "too minutiae oriented", I was the one who took the time to draft a slimmed-down version and create a stub for Kerry's grandmother where the rest of the genealogical information could be dumped so as to remain available to any reader who wanted to pursue that aspect (see my proposal to remove much of the detail). Is it nevertheless being charged against me that I inserted too much pro-Kerry detail? If so, may I be informed of the particulars? JamesMLane 06:40, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I'd question whether the ArbCom has the power to order such a thing. Secondly, it's awfully vague - it basically amounts to a directive to "fix all its problems", and I can't remember the ArbCom ever ordering such a remedy before, nor can I understand how this is supposed to be workable. We know the problems with the article. That's why we're here. We all want them fixed too, but I'm pretty uncomfortable with this. Ambi 06:33, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
That said, what do you suggest? Fred Bauder 11:56, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)
It needs to be read together with:
1) Edits by any user which carry an unreasonable degree of detail into the article, John Kerry, subverting its nature as a general summary of John Kerry's biography and background may be reverted by any other user. Users who repeatedly restore such detailed material which in the opinion of any Wikipedia administrator represent the intrusion of the Presidential campaign of 2004 into the article may be banned from editing the article until after the election. Refusal to respect such a ban shall be grounds for banning the user from Wikipedia until after the election.
Fred Bauder 13:57, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)
JamesMLanes says: "the article should keep information about each incident, taken from the official medal citation". Ok, that's all well and good, but as the records show [3] in regards to the Silver Star, there are three different "official medal citation[s]". How would you propose to handle that? Rex071404 04:49, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This latest edit [4] illustrates the extreme POV that Rex has consistently been trying to insert into the John Kerry and related articles and it also typifies the sort of irrational argumentation (mascarading as logic) that he uses to justify his POV as some sort of irrefutable, self-evident truth. To base an argument upon a litany of statements such as "Kerry himself does not claim ... " or "Kerry himself does not deny ..." is precisely the sort of preposterous nonsense that numerous editors (not all of whom are Kerry supporters, by the way) have been dealing with. A basic tenet of logical argument--simply because a person does not refute or deny every allegation made against does not prove the allegation true. Wikipedia is not the place to string together circumstantial evidence in an attempt to "prove" a POV. An article can report such that such a POV exists, but to go further than that is simply indulging political mud-slingers, IMO. older≠ wiser 16:32, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Rex071404 posted this example of a disruptive edit by Neutrality: [5]. This edit is quite remarkable in that Neutrality deleted one fascinating story and replaced it with a second. Fred Bauder 11:02, Aug 27, 2004 (UTC)
This edit [6] which Fred refers to above, was done by Neutrality at 16:01, 24 Jul 2004. It was not until 07:12, 31 Jul 2004, which is a full week later, that the VVAW controversy sub page was created. [7]. And, it was several more days before any of the text which Neutrality deleted arrived in some form on the VVAW sub-page. Now if you plot this time line against the list of reverting edits which I listed as evidence against Neutrality, we see that between 24 Jul 2004 and 27 Jul 2004 is when Neutrality was reverting me heavily and significant number of these reverts by Neutrality repeatedly kept deleting the text of mine which Fred refers to above. Also, on 27 Jul 2004 the page was protected and it was still four more days after that, that the VVAW sub-page was even created. I venture to say, had I not kept re-inserting my material to the point that Sysops took notice of Neutrality's reverts against me and locked the page, Neutrality would have simply have had succeeded in trumping my edits and no VVAW sub-page would have ever been created. For example, if I had just quit the John Kerry page on say 25 Jul 2004, since I was the only one being reverted and deleted with repeat gusto by Neutrality, it would have only been my edits that would have gone missing. And, if the edits are back-tracked, it becomes plain to see that the VVAW sub-page (grotesquely pro-Kerry though it is) would never have even been created. This is because the entrenched Neutrality aligned editors had free reign for weeks prior to my arrival and the effort to include details about the bona-fide controversies which exist regarding Kerry's medals, was mostly being advanced by me. Interestingly enough, for example, now it's coming out in the news as inescapably true that the 1st Purple Heart wound was indeed self-inflicted and not during combat. Anyone who cares to look can go back and see how intensely the pro-Kerry editors fought me even over my modest efforts to accurately describe the minor nature of that wound. Well guess what? I was right. The wound was minor. It was self-inflicted and it was not under-enemy fire. This is a critical fact which makes clear that Kerry's 3-Purple Heart exit from Vietnam was not earned. It was partially based on fraud and the fact that a significant number of people, including an Admiral who was with Kerry that day [8], dispute Kerry's version of events is very germane to any BIO or Wiki article which goes into detail about Kerry's wounds. Neutrality and his cohorts invited this controversy by including too much wound detail in the 1st place. That said, it's absurd to think that simply because they got to the John Kerry page 1st, that they should be allowed to have final say. Of course, unfortunately, that is the case at this juncture. On the other hand, perhaps the Arbitrators have seen enough and now recognize that my edit rights to John Kerry should be restored and Neutrality's should be revoked. Rex071404 05:42, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
In reply to Fred; Unfortunately, there simply are times where reporters of fact are faced with conflicting sets of facts and are left with only (4) choices:
This is so for us too, because writing an Encyclopedic article requires a logical flow to the narrative or else it becomes incoherent.
Now in regards to Kerry's 1st "wound", the facts surrounding this are germane to any BIO or article about him because:
As for the John Kerry page itself, the last time I looked, it was still too editorially toned towards supposing that excess minutiae about Kerry matters - so much so that it reads like an obsessed sycophant wrote it (and it is poorly laid-out page-wise). Also, the other key pages such as VVAW and (especially) SBVT are so out of whack in favor of Kerry it's farcical. Please note that my ban does not extend to SBVT but I have nonetheless steered clear because the same pro-Kerry crowd who opposed me on Kerry are firmly encamped there too. Frankly, I feel that the stratagem of shunting the "criticism" of Kerry's medals/service to the SBVT page, but then aggressively attacking the SBVT themselves on that page is a disgusting display of the typical pro-Kerry editor's SOP, which is: Put twice (or more) the amount of material in which attacks Kerry detractors than supports them. But of course there's no POV there - HA! Rex071404 16:13, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Please see this also. Rex071404 17:45, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
And this Rex071404 17:48, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
You are welcome to take whatever you wish to be true. However, Wikipedia is not permitted to take allegations to be true simply because they have not been formally countered. For example, the UK royal family routinely refuse to comment on any and all allegations made against them, but Wikipedia could not take the position that all such allegations were true. Martin 23:21, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
But, JamesMLane, the question remains: Are we going to knowingly publish information which is on the face of it more likely false than not? The preponderance of the unreubutted evidence about John Kerry's 1st Purple Heart is that Kerry is lying. Why are you unwlling to discuss the preponderance of the evidence to a logical conclusion? After all, if Kerry is lying and did commit fraud to flee Vietnam, that is of extreme importance because this simple fact alone could swing the election one way or the other depending on how it's reported. Doesn't the import of this issue weigh heavily enough on you to make you want to invest the time to make a best efforts determination if Kerry lied or not about his 1st Purple Heart? Rex071404 02:43, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The error you make is your effort to suppose that the contentions of these three persons is the sum total of all the available evidence. There is more than that and what I have said is that the preponderance of the evidence leans more against Kerry than not. As for wanting to look into it, that's only important if you want to avoid wrongly assuming that Kerry did deserve the 1st Purple Heart. At this point it really doesn't matter anyway. The SBVT people have focused on Kerry's lies and fakery and have clamped on like a pit bull. These allegations are indeed the "tipping point" which has begun the end of Kerry's credibility. If he does not release his full military records and diary (which he has not done) he will be unable to restore credibility on this. The very fact that Kerry is content to let his supporters and detractors duke it out in a "pissing contest" of allegations and cross allegations even though it's clearly hurting him with vets in key states [10] let's me know for sure that the alternative - releasing all the full records and directly addressing the charges themselves, is far worse. I am simply amazed that you seem unwilling to apply the correct political calculus to this. The issue about the 1st Purple is simple: If Kerry lied about that, his Vietnam exit was fraudulent. Suffice it to say, the allegations about the 1st Purple Heart are an absolute dagger at the heart of his credibility with Vietnam veterans. The point of all this is that there are many, many former grunts who are well able to surmise that Kerry gamed the system for the "3 and out" medals - and they resent him for it. The two things vets resent Kerry for the most is the gaming of the system for the "3 and out" medals and his 1971 slander against vets alleging war crimes. These are his two Achilles heels with the vets and he can do nothing about it. Having said all that, perhaps you should read this for a nice summary of the other evidence (other than what Admiral Schachte is also saying). Against the many pieces of evidence undercutting him, Kerry offers only denials through his campaign staffers and the word of two former crewmates. This is what I mean about "preponderance" of the evidence - there is more against him on this point than for him. In fact Admiral Schachte's comments are simply the coup de grace. Now as to your silly "Bush=War Criminal" comments, please take note:
Here are some links:
And of course, if Bush is a "war Criminal" so too is Senator Edwards:
Some asked for a "vote" And they got one link (Kerry and Edwards BOTH voted yes)
Food for oil scandal: here, here and here
Also, my contentions being advanced against Kerry are based on bona-fide allegations from reputable sources which have not been debunked or rebutted.
Are you saying that there is even one legal scholar of good repute anywhere in the world still advancing the "Bush = war criminal" charge on a basis that has not already been rebutted? If this is what you are saying, you are wrong. Various US legal scholars have debunked all Iraq-related "Bush = war criminal" charges - both domestic and international. I challenge you to send me even one link which proves otherwise.
Suffice it to say, I offer real allegations against Kerry, you offer false musings about Bush. I am not persuaded by your line of reasoning.
Rex071404 06:35, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
May I suggest that this page is not a place to discuss the relative merits of evidence surrounding Kerrys medals nor a place to discuss if Bush is a war criminal nor even a place to discuss the contents of the wikipedia articles upon those subjects? Iain 13:30, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Firstly, thank you, Fred, for getting things going with this again. But I've got to say that it seems a bit unfair to be admonishing Bkonrad and Rex equally for violations of Wikiquette.
While Bkonrad may have been impolite at times, I honestly don't see how, at least in this area, he can even be considered to be in the same ballpark as Rex. It would appear that there may be a handful of posts in which he may have lost his cool. On the other side, however, you have repeated violations of Wikiquette, over several weeks, in the face of numerous warnings. It seems very unfair to tar the two with the same brush. Ambi 13:53, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Members of the Committee,
I believe that your honourable Committee may be about to exceed the reasonable limits of its power. In Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Rex071404/Proposed decision, it is suggested as follows: "Edits by any user which carry an unreasonable degree of detail into the article, John Kerry, subverting its nature as a general summary of John Kerry's biography and background may be reverted by any other user. Users who repeatedly restore such detailed material which in the opinion of any Wikipedia administrator represent the intrusion of the Presidential campaign of 2004 into the article may be banned from editing the article until after the election. Refusal to respect such a ban shall be grounds for banning the user from Wikipedia until after the election."
In his vote, Daniel Mayer writes, "We should not be limiting what people who are not part of this arbitration may do." I would find myself in agreement. Policy states, "The arbitrators will not hear disputes where they have not been requested to arbitrate." This clause appears to indicate, in my opinion, that the committee has no jurisdiction except where a specific request has been made. The complaints and counter-complaints filed by the parties only involve each other. They do not involve any third party. Consequently, I submit that the Committee has, at present, no jurisdiction over these third parties.
Moreover, the Committee is not empowered to make policy; it can only interpret present policy. By declaring a punishment for an offence which is yet to be committed by users who have no "criminal records," the Committee engages in a policy-making or legislative act which is beyond its proper boundaries. It also engages in policy-making by granting powers to Administrators.
The Committee also violates the principle of due process (which I feel applies because policy declares that "sensible 'real world' laws" should be taken into consideration). The proposal empowers Administrators to become judges, juries and executioners in their own right. Each Administrator could arbitrarily impose a punishment as grave as a two-month ban. There are absolutely no standards to govern the conduct of any Administrator; everything is left to the mere "opinion," and that too of "any Wikipedia administrator"—not a panel of Administrators where power can be checked, but a single Administrator.
Hence, I respectfully submit that the proposed measure encourages arbitrary exercise of power, and exceeds the Committee's jurisdiction. -- Emsworth 01:49, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
While relying on the opinion of a sole administrator may seem unreasonable, the penalty (not being able to edit the specific article for the next few months) is very mild for anyone who is interested in positively contributing to Wikipedia. Admittedly it is much harsher for anyone who might seek to edit Wikipedia to promote an external agenda, but such non-contributors do not concern me. Martin 01:15, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I take strong exception to the second #5 under the "Proposed findings of fact": "The compaining witnesses in this matter because of their numerical majority felt that Rex071404 did not represent a point of view which had a magnitude of importance equal to theirs despite its societal significance."
That is not even close to a correct statement of what I, as one of the complaining witnesses, felt (or feel). First, I don't enshrine the views of a "numerical majority", as is alleged here. (I have on occasion pointed out to Rex that he was the only person taking a particular position, against the judgment of everyone else, but I don't think I've implied that a majority vote was the be-all and end-all. On occasion, my comment has been in response to a claim by Rex that there was a "consensus" for a view that, in fact, only he supported.) Second, I've always tried to be fair to the anti-Kerry POV. Nowhere in the Evidence or in any of the other pages connectected with this arbitration do I see any support for the implication that I haven't been fair. It's frustrating to find this kind of criticism surfacing for the first time in the proposed findings. I feel like I'm fighting with shadows:
My comments don't apply to the first version of #5, which says only that Rex felt that everyone else was being unfair to him. I don't know to what extent his disruptive conduct is to be excused on the basis of his perceptions, but at least that version doesn't imply that his perceptions were accurate. I respectfully suggest that the other version would take the committee somewhat far afield from the matters that have been properly presented to it for resolution.
While that version remains up for consideration, though, I'll do what I can to provide some general evidence on the Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Rex071404/Evidence page. JamesMLane 22:22, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Addendum: I've provided some evidence at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Rex071404/Evidence#Evidence against one version of item 5 in "Proposed findings of fact". The table of contents of that Evidence page has become confused. When Rex inserted his response, under the heading "Rex responds", he used only one equal sign on each side, making his headline nice and big but throwing off the organization. My new section should be on its own, not as a subsection under "Rex responds" -- I certainly don't want to give the impression that what I've written is part of Rex's response. The problem could be fixed by changing "=Rex responds=" to "==Rex responds==", and changing his subheadings from == to ===. This simple and sensible change would be better coming from Rex or from a committee member, though. If I were to change anything Rex wrote, I would surely be subjected to one of his typically vehement denunciations. JamesMLane 02:11, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Under the proposal as of now, would Rex's temporary injunction still stand? [[User:Neutrality| Neutrality ( talk)]] 22:33, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I've just been alerted to this finding of fact - 6) The compaining witnesses in this matter, because of their numerical majority, felt that Rex071404 did not represent a point of view which had a magnitude of importance equal to theirs, despite its societal significance.
I'd question on what basis this is justified, and what evidence that has been submitted that supports this conclusion. At the very least, I believe the statement should be qualified, if there are indeed any people that did act this way.
The anti-Kerry perspective of course, has an equal magnitude of importance to any other. For those of us on both sides of the political divide who are here to see a neutral article, rather than to try and sway public opinion of someone either way, we accept this as a must. As I've stated numerous times, Rex is not the only one holding an anti-Kerry, pro-Bush view in this. Both Cecropia and VeryVerily hold the same view, and I don't believe I've had any problems with either of them. They hold different views, and where I've had to, I believe I, and others, have been able to work with them in order to create a better article, regardless of our differences in opinion. I'm being accused of silencing other viewpoints because I happen to be in the majority here, yet I have no issues with two of the three anti-Kerry users. Strange, that.
The Committee has already proposed findings of fact and remedies that have opposed the turning of John Kerry into a blow-by-blow description of mudslinging efforts. Yet this has, in a large part, been caused by the complaining witnesses being willing to work with Rex, and to try to accomodate his (often extremely biased) point of view. Take Lyellin for example. Lyellin stepped in and proposed numerous compromise versions, trying to work in Rex's specific concerns, and dealing with no small amount of abuse from him for doing so. Yet he, too, is included in this insulting description of "fact".
It's apparent from the evidence page, even as shown by Rex's last post this very morning, that Rex has trouble distinguishing between undisputed facts, and his own conclusions about someone's character from them. But despite this, many of us have taken the time to try and accomodate Rex's perspectives re: these "controversies", and have at least attempted to alleviate his concerns.
It does complicate things that Rex is greatly outnumbered, but that is no excuse for this behaviour, and in any case, there are at least two other users with the same point of view that have been able to discuss the issue reasonably and rationally, and have received the same from at least a significant portion of the complaining witnesses. I believe that at least several of the complaining witnesses have put in countless hours trying to reason with Rex, and do not, as this finding of "fact" puts it, "[feel] that Rex071404 did not represent a point of view which had a magnitude of importance equal to theirs, despite its societal significance".
In the end, I'm left rather offended by this, and I believe that several other users, such as Lyellin, have even more reason to be so. We've spent weeks attempting to deal with this particular mess, endured vast amounts of personal attacks, and now we're subjected to this unwarranted and undeserved attack on our characters and reputations. Ambi 09:47, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The problem is that a significant minority consisting of millions of people within the United States not only agree with Rex but would probably go even further. He is not that idiosyntric in the conclusions he draws despite characterization of "his (often extremely biased) point of view" while insisting that your own edits are not biased. Tangling the article up with the current election campaign takes it outside the area of reasoned observation and argument into the perceptions and conclusions people have. Fred Bauder 14:57, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
From where I stand, reaching consensus means that reasonably presented views, even if in the minority are to be given a best efforts attempt by all editors towards inclusion.
Consensus decision making is not supposed to entail simply "out-voting" the minority voice. Rather, than a single color or striped view, a blended view is a consensus view. Now admittedly, my anti-Kerry/pro-Bush views are well known (mostly because of my talk page comments - not my edits). However, my edits still ought to have been viewed in the light of how they would read in the article itself - by a typical person not how my co-editors feel about me and my views. NPOV is attained when the end result of the article is fair and balanced. It is not attained by putting a fine-tooth strainer to every aspect of every edit. Frankly, some edits will indeed be more pregnant with meaning than others. But, if on the whole, balance and perspective is achieved, then an article can rightly be deemed to be NPOV. Personally, I am persuaded that my opponents here so suspect me and my motives, that they cannot grasp that some of my edits, such as the one discuseed at length here
[11] were really no big deal and that the opposition to them is indeed making a mountain out of a molehill [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 16:16, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I am well, shocked by seeing this finding. Doublely so because it just seems to be a complete undermining of everything else taht went on, and all the work that so many editors have done not only on the cited pages, but new ones as well, to create NPOV. Please, read through the talk pages, read through the copious archives. Look at all the compromise versions, from me, from James, from so many others, and ask how in the world we can say that the majority was just bowling over the minority here. Lyellin 21:25, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
Rex has laudably retracted all counter-complaints. [12] How does that affect these proceedings, and the authority of arbcom to impose sanctions or restrictions on the complainants? Wolfman 15:22, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
This is what the decision looks like to me: because one person does injustice to many people, those many people get sanctioned, and the one person goes free.
Do you think they pose a threat because they have larger numbers? Is this an attempt to combat that threat? That's paranoia.
ya, sure, many people have stronger views than rex, but this isn't about pov. this is about NPOV. And just because some people think that people need to hear testimony from someone who wasn't there more than testimony from someone who was there, and one person tries to make it that way, doesn't mean that that's the way it should be. And it doesn't mean that those who object - those who think we should work towards npov - are "ganging up" on a person for a personal attack, and that they therefore, deserve sanction. no. that is an injustice if i ever heard it. i highly disagree with the proposed decision. it is in direct contradiction with the proposed finding of fact. Kevin Baas | talk 18:06, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)
So far, we've not seen any suggestion of any permanent relief from Rex's persistent edit warring. Since this arbitration started, he's been involved in edit wars on at least five more articles, and I can't say I've seen anything much else in the way of contributions from him. I point the commitee to this latest edit, in which Rex unilaterally makes a small, but clearly POV change, and then, when Neutrality reverts him, re-reverts with the edit summary "rv - neutrality there is a discussion underway at talk. please join it and wait for answers before you revert this again. Thank you". When we started here, his edits had been limited to John Kerry, but now we've seen a pattern of similar conduct on a wide range of articles.
So I'm inclined to ask - is any strong action going to be taken here? I'm wary of drawing comparisons, but it seems that RK is going to banned for four months for very similar behaviour. The only differences I can see between the two cases is that we haven't had to put up with Rex for as long, and that unlike RK, Rex hasn't made any major contributions outside of his edit wars.
With the way things have been going, I believe unless some action, be it in the form of a ban or some sort of parole, is taken to stop his edit warring, that many articles will continue to be protected over attempts to insert bias, until some action is taken, be it in this case, the second case which is about to be heard, or future ones that seem to be almost inevitable if something isn't done here. Ambi 14:14, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Thank you for pointing this out to us. I think with Rex not editing John Kerry but free to edit in other areas looking at the nature and tone of those edits gives us a good chance to evaluate how broad our relief needs to be. Fred Bauder 14:55, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)
I think it's also worth noting this edit and this edit on Talk:Ann Coulter. Indeed, I believe this was the sort of behaviour that Rex swore that he would refrain from around the time of the temporary order. This shows that, even today, he's still doing the same things as on the Kerry article itself. Ambi 01:30, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
What strikes me about the Lawrence v. Texas article is that instead of using the characterizations of the import of the decision which could have been obtained from the decision itself and especially from the dissenting opinion (or reports of the decision) Rex himself is engaging in analysis of the situation, characterizing the decision as "disruptive". Certainly some language could have been found in the dissenting opinion or opinions which would have said more or less the same thing but in an authoritative way which then could have been attributed. These reports of cases can, by the way, be found in any major public library. Probably there is enough in journalistic reports of the dissent. As to Ann Coulter, she is in essence a troll, as we understand trolling being intentional stirring up. That her Wikipedia article and attempt to edit it reflect her nature is to be expected. Fred Bauder 13:21, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)
I think progress was made. I guess in response to replacement of "important" by "disruptive" both characterizations are more or less self evident but come from us rather than from commentators. Fred Bauder 18:24, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)
My response would be that instead of seeing something wrong, so putting in another wrong (speculation both times), instead take out the first problem. Lyellin 18:47, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)
Well same thing is going on with Neutrality who in the last edit I looked at described the decision as one of the most important cases ever decided. I would beg to differ. Fred Bauder 01:35, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)
Everyone here seems to be missing the point I raised which was: I feel that my initial edit to "disruptive" did not require prior discussion because as I have explained, it is the view of 60%+ of Americans. Even so, let's say for the sake of argument that my usage of "disruptive" existed as being valid only in my own mind. Even with that as the case, my edit - when it was made - was made on a basis of being understood by me as being valid. In other words - in good faith. This being the case, when Neutrality came along and disputed my edit with a reversion (not a subsequent edit) he turned my efforts from being a mere edit to a controversy. And it is at that point - a reversion that Neutrality was by rights, obligated to dialog. To me it's obvious that reversions are by their nature more controversial than edits and as such, carry a higher burden to dialog each of them than edits do. This is especially true when a user (such as Neutrality did here) reverts another four times in a very short period of time. Also, for the record, it should be noted that (at least as best as I can remember) most (if not all) of the revert battles I have been in did not orginally start with me making the 1st revert to the text in dispute. Rather, it was an by me, followed by a reversion by someone else which was the sequence of events. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 05:15, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Kizzle, you are missing the point. This "revert" war occurred primarily because there is no communication between Neutrality and myself. Suffice it to say, of those comments you make about my edits here (above), several of them could easily have been made on this page by Neutrality at any time prior to his fourth revert - the one which prompted the temporary protection of this article. You are simply missing the point if you don't see that Neutrality has a long term pattern of reverting me repeatedly without dialog. Could this be because as he often states - he thinks I'm a "troll"? Perhaps. Likewise, you assert that I have expressed suspicions about you perhaps being a "sockpuppet". Indeed, I have suspected that and I still do. If you notice though, I do answer your inquires and dialog with you. This is more than can be said for Neutrality's dealings towards me. Also, the revert against you by me which you cite, does not in any way approach the pattern of reverts against me by Neutrality. Comparing the two is fallacious reasoning. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 15:21, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Kizzle, I never suggested who I thought you are - only what. And frankly, if you were not stalking me by following my user contributions list, you would not have found my citation of you as an example to Fred Bauder. It's one thing to raise a potential example - as I did to Fred. It's quite another to come out and directly accuse, which I have not done. You are making an error by butting in on a dialog which is none of your beeswax. Also, I do not agree with your assessments and I am now asking you to stop intruding on my ongoing dialogs with others. Thank you. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 16:20, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Kizzle, I asked you to please butt out. If you want to converse with me, please comment on my talk page, not here. You are not a party to this arbitration case. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 16:39, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
so, Rex? What say you now? --
kizzle 16:59, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It's evident from his comments that "Kizzle" has bone to pick with me. This is why I asked him to direct his comments which are specific to me, to my talk page. I think that is a reasonable request. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 01:55, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I believe I have. But if "Kizzle's" comment reflects his true thoughts, then it's clear that "Kizzle" is commenting here only to "prove" himself "right" not truly dialog. This has been apparent to me for some time and it's why I asked Kizzle to dialog with me on my talk page - not here. I'll note for the record, that Kizzle has not done that. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 14:12, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The sentence to which "Kizzle" refers, can be found on Fred Bauder's talk page
here. If anyone cares to see my dialog with Fred there, they are welcome to do so. As for "Kizzle's" complaints about
Texans for Truth, I urge anyone who is interested, to review the accompanying talk page there and decide for yourself if "Kizzle's" tenacious haranguing of me about that here, is warranted. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 20:09, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I don't understand you at all, Rex. You'll spend acres of text trying to explain why you won't answer something instead of just answering the simplest of questions. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 20:50, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
True consensus editing ala
Consensus decision making would entail the group of editors who outnumber me making a better effort to subsume my ideas and suggestions - as demonstrated by my edits - than they do. Frankly, what I have have experienced from time to time on various pages is not "collaborative editing", but mob rule - albeit nicely perfumed by the self-congratulatory agreement of the majority. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 00:44, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Gamaliel, since you obviously won't concede that the "question" which has been asked 14 times is loaded, I'll ask you one: "Have you stopped beating your wife"? Yes? Aha! You admit that you have beaten your wife! No? You are a wife beater! That's roughly equal to the silly "gotcha!" scam you guys are running against me at TfT. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 04:13, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Let me see if I can explain this again for the 15th million time: SBVT is harsher on the SBVT people than TfT is on the TfT people. I plan to bring these into parity. SBVT's attacks on Kerry are muted throughout the article by defenses and rebuttals which favor Kerry. Likewise, I plan to be make sure that the GWB position is advanced similarly on TfT. How I get there, will, in large measure depend on what the other editors oppose me on. Suffice it to say, if they oppose me as aggressively has they have so far and each side defends their turf as forcefully as we have, the going is gonna be slow. This is not my fault. It is the fault of those who insisted on larding up the SBVT article - and in doing so, set a difficult to attain parity target for TfT. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 04:26, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I did not agree to the SBVT spin off. In fact, SBVT page was not extant when I was banned from
John Kerry. You are confusing it with VVAW, the spinoff of which I opposed. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 06:15, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It's not that I equate them, it's that I have answered it 15 times already. For this reason, continuing to ask it amounts to a trick of some sort, so in that vein, they have the same effect. Perhaps my response to any further repetition of the same old TfT harangues which I have already answered should be "asked and answered". [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 06:15, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"Kizzle" demands answers. And if yours don't satisfy him, he will try to harm you (see above) - be warned. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 15:48, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"Kizzle" has been answered, many times. He just doesn't like the answers. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 17:42, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Gamaliel, the way you frame that question shows that you are utterly disregarding the answers I have already given. I have several times reiterated my macro answer and within that have pointed out at least one subset of concern with greater specificity. Suffice it to say, I feel that your endless repeating of already answered questions is tantamount to harrassment. Please stop it. Also, "Kizzle" and I are now in mediation about his complaints regarding TfT, etc. Since his complaints and yours are similar, you are welcome to follow that dialog. Bear in mind though, that mediation is between "Kizzle" and me. Therefore, please do not intrude with comments on the mediation page. Lastly, since "Kizzle" and me are now in mediation about TfT, I will not be dialoging elsewhere regarding that, until "Kizzle" and I conclude our mediated dialog. Please bear this in mind and limit your inquiries of me to non-TfT topics. Thank you. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 22:44, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"Kizzle" please understand; "mediation" on this Wiki as a dispute resolution process, is a facilitated dialog between an "invitor" (in this instance, you) and an "invitee" (in this instance, me) which is intended to resolve the resolvable issues between those two parties. If you insist on inviting additional parties in to comment and talk, I will be once again outnumbered and boxed in. That's not what I signed up for or agreed to. Please be advised, if you bring in anyone other than me, you and the mediator, I will opt out. I am interested in resolving my differences with you and only you via this particular mediation. If any others want to do the same, let them request their own mediation. Of course, they can still read along, but I expect them to butt out of the mediaiton itself. And in fact, I recently learned that mediators can delete comments from a mediation page if those comments are not from one of the actual parties to the mediation. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 23:31, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
True, but if "Kizzle" comes around to my point of view, it will no longer be 4 to 1 on TfT, but 3 to 2. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 03:36, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Extremely wary as I am after having viewed the fate of others who attempt this sort of thing, I am still determined to see the committee redress what I perceive to be a central problem.
The issue at hand is that this arbitration has been brought about by user conduct. It has increasingly become sidetracked to the issue of conflicting POV's, but that remains a distraction to the crux of the arbitration, which is how Rex relates with other users.
As I observe this dispute from the sidelines, what strikes me is the consistency of Rex's practices. He has an extreme preference for having the last word - thus seeing pages such as Talk:John Kerry and increasingly, this page, becoming bloated to ridiculous levels. For all Rex's supposed outnumbering, and for all the times he laments the conspiracy of harassment formed against him, one gets the distinct impression that the discussions and dealings with him are always dominated by him, both in terms of volume, and in terms of fierceness and intensity.
On that, the general level of vitriol in Rex's edits is (at least, from my experience) nothing short of astounding. He interprets every comment on his actions as an ad-hominem attack of the highest order and immediately responds in kind. It is important to note that the incendiary quality of his rhetoric has not gradually increased in response to a perception of being outnumbered or stymied, but rather has maintained itself at the same level since his first appearance. Personal attacks such as [23], even while Rex is in the throes of two arbitrations, have been characteristic of his editing style for as long as he has been here. By contrast, lapses of judgement by the editors ranged against him are occasional in their nature, and recognised as such. Observe Rex's regular practice of trawling the talk pages of other users, and immediately responding to any mention of him. Nothing similar is evinced by any other of the editors Rex is so fond of accusing.
In short, I think where Rex has been quite successful is in exploiting his situation. Accusations of cabalism are extremely easy to manufacture and require little in the way of support, especially if one is so unutterably self-righteous. Any accusation against Rex is immediately buried in a stack of hastily-assembled counter-claims that are in general quite successful at taking the focus off Rex's own conduct. The shrillness and intensity is apparently seen by the ArbCom as a response by Rex to his situation. But I believe, the narrow focus of Rex's edits, the amount of time and patience that he is willing to contribute in attacks against other users (considerably less than any of his opponents) and actions in general which seem to cry out for a volume control, indict him as a user who promotes disruptive tactics. The arbitration now seems to be an evaluation of how the users attacked by Rex should best respond, rather than the fact that Rex has been so combative in the first place. An injustice would be served if those users who were unfortunate enough to encounter Rex were to be further burdened and tarred for having the patience to endure him rather than buckle under the pressure. Lacrimosus 21:30, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The truth, JML is that you are intentionally stoking discord at TfT. That fact is inescapable and does not square with your protestations - which are Lady Macbeth like. 02:58, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It seems to me, perhaps, that the gulf between users here reflects a difference of approach to the problem. Rex seems to put primary significance on intentions: he views himself as having good intentions, and others to be malicious, and seeks evidence that supports this. He seems to view interactions in this light. Conversely, those on the other side of Rex, generally speaking, place importance on matters of phrasing, for example, or timing, or context - on various different conventions. They maintain that they uphold conventions while Rex violates them. What approach the arbcom itself takes is a matter of speculation. Lacrimosus 04:32, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Having still seen no further action as to permanent remedies, Rex has now launched strong and disgusting attacks on numerous users. On the evidence page for this very case, he has said JamesMLane is a "obsesed and weird stalker and I'm glad he doesn't know my real name. I feel that he is really sick and needs help". Straight under that, he's also made what I have trouble believing wasn't a gaybashing attempt, though he's since denied it. On Talk:Fulbright Hearing, he's said he was "amazed" at the "bottom feeding habits" of Gamaliel and JamesMLane. On the same page, he's referred to disagreeing editors as "jackals". And he's still attacking the integrity of his detractors, referring to their "single-minded pro-Kerry bias".
Around the time of the temporary order, Rex swore that he'd changed his ways and had stopped personally attacking people. These edits, all in the space of today, make a mockery of that. If nothing else, surely a personal attack parole is deserved here. One should not have to put up with regular personal abuse for being involved in talk page discussions. Ambi 05:03, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Ah, so then, what does this tell you about how little attention I am paying to gender or sexuality roles here? Also, the term "peeing contest" refers to a futile display of one-upsman-ship. Even so, while it would not be effective as literal analogy in a mixed-gender dialog, it is still effective if all persons know it's meaning and it's used figuratively. That said, if Ambi is a woman and/or is offended, I'd be happy to apologize. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 06:09, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I don't think it's appropriate for Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Rex071404/Proposed decision to turn into yet another interminable exchange of opinions, so I'm placing my response to Rex here.
One of his comments is:
This is a typical misstatement by Rex. My first edit to Stolen Honor was this one -- instead of Rex's version, that the POW's in the video "make it clear that they suffered" because of Kerry, I said they "alleged that they suffered". Rex's version improperly adopted their allegations as fact. My major substantive edit was this one, adding information about the video's producer's ties to Bush -- information that's in the current version that Rex lauds. My other substantive edit was this one, adding one sentence to explain an obscure comment in the article. It lasted all of four minutes before Rex reverted it. I then commented on the talk page, concluding: "My edit is a clear improvement on the current text but it's yet another minor point where you'll get your way by virtue of your demonstrated willingness to engage in endless reverts and denunciations." [27] My suggested addition had the support of Gamaliel, kizzle, and Wolfman. No one has agreed with Rex. Nevertheless, Rex is getting his way. The sentence isn't in the article now. Apparently everyone else feels as I do, that it's yet another point where we just don't want to deal with all the imprecations and revert wars that "somehow" crop up in articles Rex edits.
So, Rex, what action of mine in Stolen Honor was unreasonable? and why isn't your attack on me subject to the comment you yourself made about Ambi in the preceding section: "Also, please note that Ambi provides not actual links to my edits...."? JamesMLane 01:35, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
People might want to take a look at Rex's comment on Fred Bauder's page... don't know if he's serious or not:
-- kizzle 04:15, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)
On the project page, Neutrality has noted Rex's apparent departure. Other people have stormed off in a huff, only to return. In Rex's case, it was obviously his strong feelings about the U.S. presidential election that led him to the conduct many of us considered unacceptable. By now the election is only a few weeks away. I don't know what's normally done if a user departs while a proceeding is pending, but I suggest that any archiving of this proceeding be deferred until after the election. JamesMLane 17:58, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The motion to close should be voted down in light of recent events. Rex has returned and has announced a planned campaign against the "turdballs", the "the liberal Wiki-cabal", the "nyudnicks", the "sissified daisy-chain echo chamber", the "Kangaroo Court" and at least one "biased phoney". (Incidentally, this is the same Rex who assured the Arbitration Committee on August 9 as follows: "As my name shows, I have been here for lesss than a month and each week, my courtesy to others has grown. There is no rational basis to infer, suggest or anticipate that I will make rude comments about others." [28])
Another point that I should have thought of earlier: Rex cross-complained against several of us. Even if he had not returned, it would be a disservice to us for the committee to archive this proceeding without expressly ruling on the cross-complaints. I, for one, would like to have my name cleared, rather than having charges against me that are technically still open. JamesMLane 09:11, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
You can think what you want, but the truth is that this Wiki is biased against conservative editors. Frankly, after I write up a "how-to" manual, which will assist other conservatives from getting trapped in this endless cycle of mendacity and complaints (such as all this "Arbcom" crap), I am going to go to all my conservative blogs and recruit 100 new editors, who, armed with what I learned here, will be able to outwit you turdballs and overthrow the liberal Wiki-cabal that tries to rule the roost around here. Mark my words, this Wiki will either eventually have to go to a closed model, or you will have to stop siding with nyudnicks such as JamesMLane and Neutrality. To let Neutrality get away with what he did at
Dedham, Massachusetts shows that this Wiki leadership team which is hounding me is nothing more than a sissified daisy-chain echo chamber. Enough with your Kangaroo Court! And that goes for you too Ambi, you biased phoney! [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 04:17, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Well, he can be excused I think; but Rex, I am hearing exactly the same from User:Shorne and User:Ruy Lopez who claim Wikipedia is dominated by the right wing. Fred Bauder 15:34, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
The fact that Ambi refers to a goal of adding in new crew of conservative editors a "a threat to the very existence of Wikipedia" proves without a doubt the utter and total Liberal bias of her and those who think like her. Either that or Ambi is just plain stupid. This sentence: "overthrow the liberal Wiki-cabal that tries to rule the roost around here", does not in any way indicate a goal of harming or closing down this Wiki. Rather, it speaks of a goal of getting enough new conservative voices so that the Ambi/JamesMLane/Neutrality, etc cabal will no longer be able to "out-vote" conservatives on every talk page. Do you have any idea how many IP addresses I have access to? I have unfettered access to scores of dozens of disparate, non-related IPs. Had I wanted to do harm, I would have long ago created two dozen of my own sock-puppets and would have out-voted you dumbos on each dispute myself (and if Neutrality isn't "Feldspar", then most likely JamesMLane is). The fact is that it's more important to me to try to get the truth out in a truthful manner, than it is to do it by cheating. And that's why I've not cheated. The truth here is that this Wiki has a limited, core group of over-educated, but dumb people (see ref to cabal above) who have too much influence. For example, if Feldspar isn't dumb or biased, why did he give up on
Dedham, Massachusetts? And as for Kizzle's comment of "I don't see how in any way this behavior can be excused", it's simply idiotic. There is absolutely no mechanism in place at this Wiki which could in any way prevent me from having already re-joined several weeks ago under a new name and new IP address (perhaps via megaproxy.com or via VNC into my office network or rebooting my DSL modem) and if I had done that, what comes of all these "Arbcom" complaint idiocies? Oh boo-hoo. I reverted a few people and was rude to a few people, big deal! Did I unleash a "Michael"-bot (one which could insert false facts randonly into articles - perhaps via a date alteration script...) on you? No! In fact, other than piss-off a few pro-Kerry zealots, I basically have not done anything wrong. Good Lord! Where do people Like Feldspar, Neutrality and JamesMLane (even too Kizzle and Wolfman) find the time to endlessly fued with people over so much minutiae? Does anyone even remember how all this started? It started back at
John Kerry primarily over my efforts to insert the word "minor" in regards to Kerry's 1st wound. How any reasonable person would disupte that word as being accurate, boggles my mind. He was treated with Bacitracin and a bandaid. What kind of injury is that? A MINOR ONE !!!! There is no other way to describe it. On the other hand, this same Wiki is content to allow the
George W. Bush page to have age old crap inferring "insider-trading" on stock and shady deals on ballparks. Frankly, I decided on
Beating a dead horse as my last contributors edit to this Wiki as a tongue-in-cheek double entendre. It's indeed what I've experienced with this crew and frankly, I simply don't care any more. They say that a fair definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over again, yet each time expecting different results. I've determined that the results I get in dealing with this particular Wiki-cabal won't change. Therefore, the only question in my mind which remains is, do I rejoin at some point with new name and new IP? Perhaps, but if I do, no one invloved with me here will ever find out. So then, the next time you run someone like me out of Dodge City, like you have done to me, who will be repeating the same old thing? What did this Wiki learn or gain by chasing me away? Simply; nothing. Frankly, I think that the page
White cracker which I started perfectly underscores the blind spot in the group think around here. Why was such an obvious entry missing from this Wiki? Because those who edit here the most are unable to conceptualize that anyone other than a white person could possibly be racist or a bigot. In other words, it's the articles which don't get written which also shows the group-think around here. So will this Wiki ever post any facts about the true genesis of the motives for the "no establishment of religion" clause (see
Talk:Dedham, Massachusetts) and the original reasons for it? Probably not. And why not? Because the Liberals are intent on re-writing history to suit their own pro-Gay, anti-religious (more like anti-Christian) purposes. This is why on this Wiki, we can find tidbits about shock photos of a man stretching his anus, but we can't get a few simple facts about the true history of
Dedham, Massachusetts edited in. Good, go ahead and embrace educated buffoons like "Feldspar" (whoever he is), you deserve him. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 07:08, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
With the above statement of Rex's in mind, I formally request that provisions be made to extend any verdict in this case to any potential sockpuppets, as was done in the PolishPoliticians precedent, if my memory serves me correctly. Ambi 08:12, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
That happens automatically. If we can identify them. Fred Bauder 14:28, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
I think it is clear that Rex is not gone and is not inactive. Does anyone doubt that this is Rex? -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:02, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Will the ban apply only to articles which by their nature involve United States politics? Or will the ban apply equally to the insertion of political material into non-political articles? -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:18, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
To get to the point, it would not cover Dedham, Massachusetts. Really I don't see why you are deleting the edits he is making there. He cites, A New England Town: The First Hundred Years : Dedham, Massachusetts, 1636-1736 (Norton Essays in American History), a book which sells used for about $3.00. Why don't you both buy it and take a good look at it? Fred Bauder 18:18, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)
Is Feldspar saying that the fact that John Kerry's 1st "wound" was minor, was also "invented out of whole cloth"? [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 05:30, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Bla Bla Bla 216.153.214.94 07:35, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
My observations of Feldspar's repeatedly reverts against both Rex071404 (and this anon IP editor) at Dedham, Massachusetts make me wonder how he justifies getting so exorcized when his edits are reverted for seemingly irrational/illogical reasons. Perhaps what's good for the goose, is not good for the gander, in his view?... 216.153.214.94 08:10, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It's not good for either of you, remember it is the bulldog attitude that got you here, not mere POV. Fred Bauder 10:38, Oct 30, 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps being hounded by illogical, senseless reverts by people like Feldspar, is a prime reason Rex071404 left. Also, perhaps it was instances like JamesMLane, et al, who in refusing to allowing the true, non-POV word of "minor" to be used to describe John Kerry's 1st "wound" (way back in July/August) that set off an endless series of tit-for-tat, fighting and fueding. However, it seems that people like Feldspar don't think they are actually doing anything wrong. Perhaps such thinking is also in control of JamesMLane?... But of course, what do I know? I am simply a anon IP editor with no dog in that fight. 216.153.214.94 15:45, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Hmmm.... Wound classification cannot be a fact only a "conclusion"? Tell that to any triage center doctor at a battlefield army surgical center. Yes or No JamesMLane, is it true that John Kerry's 1st wound was "minor"? 216.153.214.94 04:35, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Rex, could you perhaps familiarize yourself with "tendentious"? There is no Wictionary entry for this but your above post regarding the minor wound is an excellent example. It is this tendentious attitude which is at issue, not your point of view or your political orientation. Fred Bauder 12:30, Oct 31, 2004 (UTC)
Hmmm... so then, Martha Stewart can't be called a "felon" nor the Red Sox to be said to have "defeated" the Yankees (and Cardinals and Angels) or perhaps if anyone asks what the word Israel means, we are not allowed to say that it means "one who has strength with G-d and man" after all we might be too "tendentious", if we did that. Har! You need to read Aesop's fable about the lion in the cave. The fox was too wise to get lured in to his death. There were plenty of footprints going into the cave, but none coming out. Likewise, it could also be said that you, Fred are being "tendentious" when you prohibit the use of a particular word. One can be "tendentious" in either what they do or what they don't do. This fact seems to escape you. It's not just what happens that matters, it's also what doesn't happeen. This is precisly why Napoleon said "What is history, but a fable agreed upon?" which roughly translates as "history is a set of lies agreed upon". Which I am sure, after having dealt with the likes of the liberal cabal at this Wiki, is in large measure why Rex071404 has that quote on his user page. 216.153.214.94 17:45, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm utterly amazed that (Fred, it seems) has toned down Rex's ban from a year to four months. He's utterly unrepentant - and indeed, his posts in recent weeks should show how bad he is, in that respect. The editors who have wasted time dealing with him (which, if you include Hadal and the others he's abused for reverting biased edits), would have reached at least fifteen in number by now, have been putting up with him for at least three months. For wasting all this time, and showing utterly no improvement - or desire to do so, he gets a four month ban. Shame, shame, shame. Ambi 05:34, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Well, don't panic. Once you become an arbitrator, which I think you will, you can propose and vote and all that. And you will see that it is not what you propose or what you vote for that holds things up but failure to either propose or vote. On the point, I may have overdone it and ought to suggest a more appropriate remedy. Fred Bauder 12:55, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)
Rex has now messaged all the parties involved in this case gloating about the presidential election... see my page ( User_talk:Kizzle#Rex.27s_comment) along with JamesMLane, Wolfman, and others probably..... why is he still allowed on Wikipedia at all? -- kizzle 22:27, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)
So Neutrality admits that he started a senseless (and ill-founded) revert war with Rex071404 at Lawrence v. Texas and that's why he wants to ban "Rex", so as to hide the truth about his own troublemaking? Or will he swear again and say that's "BS"? Hmmm..... come to think of it, wasn't Neutrality the prime-mover of all the pro-Kerry fluff back in July? Seem to recall seeing a list of edits somewhere which indicated that. 216.153.214.94 06:47, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hmmm... Didn't L. exchange prognostications about the EV count with "Rex"? Also, I see no "gloating" on L's page (nor any comment at all on Neutrality's). 216.153.214.94 06:47, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I see that JamesMLane is still stalking the edits of other users and still tells only 1/2 the story. 216.153.214.94 06:47, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hmmm... a bunch of sore losers, eh? 216.153.214.94 06:39, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Also, I don't even see why anyone here is complaining. My review of the edits in question indicate that "Rex" had his numbers wrong. The final EV count is 286 to 252, not 289 to 252. What is the big deal about someone exaggerating (or mis-typing) the total by 3 EV on a talk page? Seems like much ado about nothing. 216.153.214.94 07:20, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hmmm... If it were Eric Cartman you were talking to he's said something like "If Bush won, that means that someone lost. Come one Kizzle, who lost? Tell me who lost Kizzle. Kizzle who lost?" Of course, you are not talking to Eric Cartman, so no such conversation will occur. 216.153.214.94 15:27, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
So now you make perverse sexual insults? Please retract that statement. 216.153.214.94 03:25, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It has been almost 4 months I think since Rex graced us with his presence at Wikipedia. Through countless edit wars, page protections, constant reversions (20+ in one day, now commonplace through his sockpuppet ip address)... I have never seen a more clear-cut case of someone who is damaging to Wikipedia. There is simply no benefit to Rex's style of "concensus-building", and to him its as if we're contributing to a "Rexopedia" where his edits are justified without discussion and opposing edits must satisfy an imaginary line of proof (no proof has yet satisfied Rex in a disagreement). The level of personal attacks he has leveled against many, many members of Wikipedia over the months in addition to the reckless behavior on his 216. ip account which has gotten worse and worse. I have begun to respond to these attacks with my own personal attacks, because frankly I am sick and tired of dealing with this. It has been 4 months. Every page Rex has been a part of has greatly reduced in the ability to actually reach a concensus, and this does not mean the minority opinion has been ignored, rather Rex's edits reflect a clear POV even upon logical arguments or documented proof to the contrary. This is not to say that he is always wrong, but rather that his obstinant method of "concensus-building" does not allow room for compromise nor opposing viewpoints, thus even if he was right, instead of explaining he simply holds the page hostage and threatens to protect/NPOV tag/arbcom/mediation. G-d forbid this wiki should be ruled by people like Rex in the majority, it could not function.
This behavior is primarily due to a feeling of being "picked on" as violet puts it, as he is obviously scarred from the multiple encounters he has both been involved in. Due to his POV and Bush winning, along with the assumed invulnerability he is assuming by hiding behind a IP address, he is now engaging in all the worst behaviors he was accused of before, but now in vastly increased frequency.
I hereby request that action be taken above and beyond the simple ban of several articles, as this behavior is not politically related but rather extends to Rex's ability to work with others, which simply does not exist. A simple look at the history will see a long and exhausted attempt to dialog with Rex by nearly everyone involved, but this has got to stop. I am sick and tired of the defense that his viewpoint is simply in the minority and that we must account for minority opinions. I'm fine with that! If the committee does nothing further to curb this behavior, then this will set a precedent that a stream of personal attacks against other users is acceptable, which I have of late have begun to follow (which is not appropriate, and I will try to modify my own behavior, if I get kicked off wikipedia along with Rex I would gladly accept this punishment)...he should not be allowed to simply bully, denegrate, cajole, mock, and more importantly plead ignorance to opposing viewpoints.
Something must be done, and it must be done now. Vote on it, if its 0-9 then ok. Arbcom, please restore my faith in this wikipedia. If any others agree with me, please state below. If I am alone, so be it, as long as the possibility is entertained by the arbcom.-- kizzle 09:39, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)
Agree. What's up with the missing arbitrators? The case has been open for months. Wolfman 03:56, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
JamesMLane, I disagree with your assesments. Please provide additional proof. 216.153.214.94 20:53, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm trying my best to assume good faith here, but I simply cannot see why these proceedings have been so biased in favour of Rex. Rex has delivered barrages of insults. Rex has made accusations en masse. Rex has now moved into vandalism. Rex has shown a complete inability to cooperate with any other user in a way that has been almost unmatched by anyone. Yet somehow, after three months, we've seen almost no rulings on this - and yet somehow, a quip of "hi rex!" is suddenly a taunt that deserves mentioning?
I'm just disgusted. After all the time I've put into this project, some bloody reward. Ambi 12:15, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's not the "quip". It's the cavalier, no-dialog-on-talk-page revert which came with it. Ambi, you are indeed a trouble-maker. You just do a better job of hiding that fact. 216.153.214.94 20:51, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I totally agree that this idiot should be banned - show me one positive edit made in recent times that has not been disputed for factuality or POV. As a still-relatively-new wikipedian I find it shocking the way the whole banning process is conducted. Just kick this one idiot out and you'll make many good contributors much happier. It makes me laugh that I've spent so much time over the last few days dealing with a personal vendatta 216 has against me (along with numerous other users here) instead of contributing to the content of this pedia. violet/riga (t) 01:12, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Wouldn't "jerk" be a better term? After all, "jerk" would clearly be an opinion, though "idiot" infers a fact regarding intelligence. And from that standard, to my reading, Violet is more of an idiot than Rex. 216.153.214.94 05:39, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I can understand a reasoning why the proceedings would go easier on Rex and tougher on his opponents than the respective records of the parties would justify. It's a pattern that, I've gathered from my reading of Groklaw, is not infrequent within U.S. courts; a judge assigned to a case of very clear wrongdoing by a particularly intransigent party to the case cannot just say "Oh, come on, this is ridiculous, everyone can see that it's So-and-so who's causing all the trouble! Let's stop farting around; So-and-so, pack your bags, 'cause you're about to vacation at the Bars-On-The-Windows Hilton!" Ironically, when the judge reacts to a particularly obvious situation by treating it as particularly obvious, the wrongdoer can turn around and file an appeal to a higher court and claim that the judge must have been prejudiced against them -- just look at here and here and here in the record, your Honor! Judge Foofoo didn't even let me present my theory that the prosecution hired a Hollywood production company to film fake security camera footage of a robber who looks exactly like me stealing the money that I later accidentally spent when I found it under my mattress! How can you say I got a fair trial when the defense wasn't allowed to present its best theory?? -- so in order to make their judgements "appeal-proof", judges faced with an ironclad case will bend over backwards to give the party clearly in the wrong the benefit of every doubt, and make the other party truly prove their case. Then, in the case any room for an appeal is even left, the appeal court can see that Judge Foofoo didn't wrong the appealing party by holding them to an unfair standard; the appealing party was given every benefit of the doubt and even under standards biased in their favor, the result was still clear.
But I think there's problems with applying that strategy here. There is, unless I'm mistaken, no appeal court higher than the ArbCom, and thus no one to "appeal-proof" the judgements for. ArbCom is our court of appeal, our resource to say "Look, Rex reverts us without dialog; he accuses us loudly and publicly of being sockpuppets; he smears us as 'vandals' in his edit summaries on Vandalism in Progress; he throws wild accusations of bias and religious bigotry and hidden agendas; he stalks our edits; he makes threats; he blanks others' user pages; he makes direct threats to spam their user pages, reposting the same text daily until they are coerced to his desired action; he threatens RfArs against them; he violates the three-revert rule; he thumbs his nose at us by pretending his anon identity 216.153.214.94 A) has never heard of this "Rex" we keep talking about and B) has so much knowledge of who's in the right and who's in the wrong he's justified in picking up all Rex's battles and fighting them using just the methods Rex did -- please do something about him."
It's demoralizing to those good editors to reply to them with "We will respond to Rex's violation of community standards by allowing him to continue violating those standards, but holding you most stringently to those standards. You are forbidden to cite the open RfArs against him to show that he is not a reliable editor whose word can be taken at face value; however, he can misrepresent an administrator's words from that RfAr, justifying his third revert in two hours (followed by an illicit fourth just an hour later) with 'Feldspar has been warned by Fred Bauder to stop reverting'. At some point we may impose some sort of penalty on Rex for all his misdeeds, but you should know that we're already looking at how soon he'll be back and so you should treat him with the courtesy he has never shown to you." Good editors are already being driven away from Wikipedia because they know that even if they do something as unobjectionable as fixing a category tag, Rex may revert it just to prove that he can thumb his nose at them and get away with it. They are demoralized further when it's shown to them that, not only will the little things they do right be neither praised nor protected from the petty vengeance of a troublemaker, but the littlest things they do wrong -- something as small as the 'taunt' "Hi Rex!" -- will be held against them. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:54, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I actually think Rex has difficulty using references to extract information. And a propensisity to edit without adequate authority backing him up. I believe his edits to Dedham, Massachusetts demonstrate his failure. I don't think he needs a ban at all, but simply needs to not be allowed to revert and required to cite adequate references. The object is to put him to work editing rather than fooling around. Fred Bauder 20:14, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)
Please read this 216.153.214.94 18:16, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
you are more than a little frustrating to work with, Rex. Wolfman 03:48, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
mmmmm this is a juicy one -> [32] -- kizzle 03:41, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
On point 12, that one of the points on which I justified Rex's first edit at Dedham, Massachusetts was the fact that Rex was involved in this RfAr. This is true, I did in fact link to one of Rex's open RfArs. If I had to do it over again, I would have been more specific, and rather than link to this RfAr, I would have linked to these edits, ( [33], [34], [35], [36], and [37]), all of which occurred within the same hour as Rex's first edit to Dedham, MA and which taken together show a pattern of harassment, a pattern Rex continues even more blatantly in his guise as an anon.
On point 13, that it was Netoholic who broke the deadlock at the Dedham article by suggesting that Rex's information could be put into a separate article, to which the Dedham article could then point ( [38]), I must point out that in fact I made this exact suggestion previously, here. "Had the same information been inserted by an editor I trusted, I would still raise the same questions of relevance -- why not put this interesting information in an article of its own, and then link to that article? -- but I would not have had reason to doubt their correctness." It is true that I did not make this suggestion on the article talk page addressed directly to Rex; I raised it as an example of something that could have been done by an editor who was acting in good faith.
I frankly confess that it concerns me that some (not all) of the 'petty offenses' being referred to in the proposed findings essentially concern other parties not assuming good faith of Rex -- not at the beginning, when he had a clean record, and when good faith should have been assumed, but after Rex's propensity to say things for which he has no proof and even things that we know he knows to be false has been demonstrated and documented. It concerns me that some administrators are stating as fact that Rex's motives were genuine even though his research was flawed. It concerns me that I am being chastised for saying that Rex "has a problem with the truth" and his accusation on the same page that "it's clear that Feldspar has an agenda other than allowing edits which reflect the truth about America's Christian heritage" is passed over. Please, tell me -- how many times must a user demonstrate that they are not acting in good faith before the users they harass are allowed to stop assuming it? -- Antaeus Feldspar 20:46, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Feldspar points the finger of blame - at others, but not himself. 216.153.214.94 20:54, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
No matter what another user does you are responsible for following etiquette. Fred Bauder 20:56, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)
Even if he is banned for a year he will still be back and should be treated with respect. Fred Bauder 00:34, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)
What the hell is taking so long? Now Rex has gotten yet
ANOTHER page protected which needs to be unprotected in order to reflect the vast amount of information coming in about voter irregularities.
A decision needs to be reached now. -- kizzle 22:51, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
With Fred's latest edit, we have 3-0 in favor of banning Rex entirely for 6 months. What further needs to occur in order for this to actually be enforced? --
kizzle 00:30, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
In this edit, User:216.153.214.94 says, "I have quit the Wiki." Therefore, there could be no objection to an immediate block on that IP. The contributions history gives no reason to believe that the IP has been used by anyone other than Rex. JamesMLane 07:58, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Arbcom, thanks for restoring my faith in this wiki, either by ruling at all or taking into account 4 months of personal attacks, proected pages, insisting on unsourced additions, and just generally being a complete asshole, causing several users to leave this wiki altogether. Yeah, just prevent him from reverting, that'll stop him from personal attacks. Justice is served. -- kizzle 20:42, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
JamesF abstained on one of these points, citing "... and remove his ability to help fight vandalism? Maybe..."
Has Rex ever helped fight vandalism? Ambi 04:11, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It concerns me that a couple of people continue to characterise this as a dispute between Neutrality and Rex. There were six other people signing the request for a temporary order, and I'm quite offended by the characterisation that we would all "need to be banned". I've reverted Rex a grand total of four times, IIRC. I believe I've been pretty civil, as have numerous other people who have tried to reason with him. If there are issues with Neutrality's conduct here, then fine - but deal with that seperately, please.
That said, to be fair to Rex, his conduct outside of the John Kerry-related disputes hasn't, as far as I've seen, been overly problematic, so Fred's proposal makes enough sense. Ambi 05:04, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Rex071404 filed a cross-complaint against me, based solely on my having supported the Request for Arbitration. I answered that charge in my "Statement by affected party". Now, the first proposed finding of fact appears to contain one or two different charges against me, ones not previously called to my attention. I don't know the procedure well enough (this being my first arbitration) to know whether these are just passing observations, or points upon which some decision against me might be based, and whether I'm supposed to answer them, etc. I'd appreciate some guidance.
The proposed finding states that I, along with others, "have in the heat of the US Presidential election focused on the article John Kerry and carried the issues of the campaign into the encyclopedia article in detail. See [1] and [2]"
1. If "focused" means it's on my Watchlist, and that I've devoted a lot of energy to it, of course that's true. In fact, I joined in the RfAr precisely because, since Rex's arrival, I've had to devote way too much time to the John Kerry article just to keep it from turning into an anti-Kerry diatribe. On the other hand, if "focused" means that my sole objective at Wikipedia has been to advance a political agenda -- which is close to what Rex admitted about himself -- then it's not true. Despite the huge drains on my time and energy occasioned by Rex's conduct, I've also spent time during this same period on editing nonpolitical articles, on identifying VfD candidates and voting on others (along with a CfD), on cleaning up vandalism, and on a bit of newbie-helping here and there. Is there a serious charge against me of overconcentration on John Kerry, so that I should be citing these other edits on the Evidence page?
2. If carrying campaign issues "into the encyclopedia article in detail" means too much detail, then again I have to know if I should be responding. I agree that not every detail goes in. It's a judgment call. There was too much detail about the SBVT (an anti-Kerry organization), detail that I thought belonged in the SBVT article. Therefore, in this comment on Talk I proposed summary language for the John Kerry article. My draft was accepted (by everyone but Rex, of course), and the making of this change helped remove detail clutter and focus the main article. On the other hand, I'll confess that my suggestion expressly included leaving in Hibbard's attack on Kerry. Similarly, after the ArbCom had blocked Rex, I argued in this comment for the "anti-Kerry" position of leaving in Elliott's attack on him. I tried to put politics aside (yes, I'm for Kerry) and make my best judgments about whether each fact did or didn't merit inclusion in an encyclopedic summary of Kerry's career. I thought Hibbard and Elliott's anti-Kerry statements qualified, i.e., were not excessive detail. On a side issue, when Rex made this comment that the text on Kerry's family background was "too minutiae oriented", I was the one who took the time to draft a slimmed-down version and create a stub for Kerry's grandmother where the rest of the genealogical information could be dumped so as to remain available to any reader who wanted to pursue that aspect (see my proposal to remove much of the detail). Is it nevertheless being charged against me that I inserted too much pro-Kerry detail? If so, may I be informed of the particulars? JamesMLane 06:40, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I'd question whether the ArbCom has the power to order such a thing. Secondly, it's awfully vague - it basically amounts to a directive to "fix all its problems", and I can't remember the ArbCom ever ordering such a remedy before, nor can I understand how this is supposed to be workable. We know the problems with the article. That's why we're here. We all want them fixed too, but I'm pretty uncomfortable with this. Ambi 06:33, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
That said, what do you suggest? Fred Bauder 11:56, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)
It needs to be read together with:
1) Edits by any user which carry an unreasonable degree of detail into the article, John Kerry, subverting its nature as a general summary of John Kerry's biography and background may be reverted by any other user. Users who repeatedly restore such detailed material which in the opinion of any Wikipedia administrator represent the intrusion of the Presidential campaign of 2004 into the article may be banned from editing the article until after the election. Refusal to respect such a ban shall be grounds for banning the user from Wikipedia until after the election.
Fred Bauder 13:57, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)
JamesMLanes says: "the article should keep information about each incident, taken from the official medal citation". Ok, that's all well and good, but as the records show [3] in regards to the Silver Star, there are three different "official medal citation[s]". How would you propose to handle that? Rex071404 04:49, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This latest edit [4] illustrates the extreme POV that Rex has consistently been trying to insert into the John Kerry and related articles and it also typifies the sort of irrational argumentation (mascarading as logic) that he uses to justify his POV as some sort of irrefutable, self-evident truth. To base an argument upon a litany of statements such as "Kerry himself does not claim ... " or "Kerry himself does not deny ..." is precisely the sort of preposterous nonsense that numerous editors (not all of whom are Kerry supporters, by the way) have been dealing with. A basic tenet of logical argument--simply because a person does not refute or deny every allegation made against does not prove the allegation true. Wikipedia is not the place to string together circumstantial evidence in an attempt to "prove" a POV. An article can report such that such a POV exists, but to go further than that is simply indulging political mud-slingers, IMO. older≠ wiser 16:32, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Rex071404 posted this example of a disruptive edit by Neutrality: [5]. This edit is quite remarkable in that Neutrality deleted one fascinating story and replaced it with a second. Fred Bauder 11:02, Aug 27, 2004 (UTC)
This edit [6] which Fred refers to above, was done by Neutrality at 16:01, 24 Jul 2004. It was not until 07:12, 31 Jul 2004, which is a full week later, that the VVAW controversy sub page was created. [7]. And, it was several more days before any of the text which Neutrality deleted arrived in some form on the VVAW sub-page. Now if you plot this time line against the list of reverting edits which I listed as evidence against Neutrality, we see that between 24 Jul 2004 and 27 Jul 2004 is when Neutrality was reverting me heavily and significant number of these reverts by Neutrality repeatedly kept deleting the text of mine which Fred refers to above. Also, on 27 Jul 2004 the page was protected and it was still four more days after that, that the VVAW sub-page was even created. I venture to say, had I not kept re-inserting my material to the point that Sysops took notice of Neutrality's reverts against me and locked the page, Neutrality would have simply have had succeeded in trumping my edits and no VVAW sub-page would have ever been created. For example, if I had just quit the John Kerry page on say 25 Jul 2004, since I was the only one being reverted and deleted with repeat gusto by Neutrality, it would have only been my edits that would have gone missing. And, if the edits are back-tracked, it becomes plain to see that the VVAW sub-page (grotesquely pro-Kerry though it is) would never have even been created. This is because the entrenched Neutrality aligned editors had free reign for weeks prior to my arrival and the effort to include details about the bona-fide controversies which exist regarding Kerry's medals, was mostly being advanced by me. Interestingly enough, for example, now it's coming out in the news as inescapably true that the 1st Purple Heart wound was indeed self-inflicted and not during combat. Anyone who cares to look can go back and see how intensely the pro-Kerry editors fought me even over my modest efforts to accurately describe the minor nature of that wound. Well guess what? I was right. The wound was minor. It was self-inflicted and it was not under-enemy fire. This is a critical fact which makes clear that Kerry's 3-Purple Heart exit from Vietnam was not earned. It was partially based on fraud and the fact that a significant number of people, including an Admiral who was with Kerry that day [8], dispute Kerry's version of events is very germane to any BIO or Wiki article which goes into detail about Kerry's wounds. Neutrality and his cohorts invited this controversy by including too much wound detail in the 1st place. That said, it's absurd to think that simply because they got to the John Kerry page 1st, that they should be allowed to have final say. Of course, unfortunately, that is the case at this juncture. On the other hand, perhaps the Arbitrators have seen enough and now recognize that my edit rights to John Kerry should be restored and Neutrality's should be revoked. Rex071404 05:42, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
In reply to Fred; Unfortunately, there simply are times where reporters of fact are faced with conflicting sets of facts and are left with only (4) choices:
This is so for us too, because writing an Encyclopedic article requires a logical flow to the narrative or else it becomes incoherent.
Now in regards to Kerry's 1st "wound", the facts surrounding this are germane to any BIO or article about him because:
As for the John Kerry page itself, the last time I looked, it was still too editorially toned towards supposing that excess minutiae about Kerry matters - so much so that it reads like an obsessed sycophant wrote it (and it is poorly laid-out page-wise). Also, the other key pages such as VVAW and (especially) SBVT are so out of whack in favor of Kerry it's farcical. Please note that my ban does not extend to SBVT but I have nonetheless steered clear because the same pro-Kerry crowd who opposed me on Kerry are firmly encamped there too. Frankly, I feel that the stratagem of shunting the "criticism" of Kerry's medals/service to the SBVT page, but then aggressively attacking the SBVT themselves on that page is a disgusting display of the typical pro-Kerry editor's SOP, which is: Put twice (or more) the amount of material in which attacks Kerry detractors than supports them. But of course there's no POV there - HA! Rex071404 16:13, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Please see this also. Rex071404 17:45, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
And this Rex071404 17:48, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
You are welcome to take whatever you wish to be true. However, Wikipedia is not permitted to take allegations to be true simply because they have not been formally countered. For example, the UK royal family routinely refuse to comment on any and all allegations made against them, but Wikipedia could not take the position that all such allegations were true. Martin 23:21, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
But, JamesMLane, the question remains: Are we going to knowingly publish information which is on the face of it more likely false than not? The preponderance of the unreubutted evidence about John Kerry's 1st Purple Heart is that Kerry is lying. Why are you unwlling to discuss the preponderance of the evidence to a logical conclusion? After all, if Kerry is lying and did commit fraud to flee Vietnam, that is of extreme importance because this simple fact alone could swing the election one way or the other depending on how it's reported. Doesn't the import of this issue weigh heavily enough on you to make you want to invest the time to make a best efforts determination if Kerry lied or not about his 1st Purple Heart? Rex071404 02:43, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The error you make is your effort to suppose that the contentions of these three persons is the sum total of all the available evidence. There is more than that and what I have said is that the preponderance of the evidence leans more against Kerry than not. As for wanting to look into it, that's only important if you want to avoid wrongly assuming that Kerry did deserve the 1st Purple Heart. At this point it really doesn't matter anyway. The SBVT people have focused on Kerry's lies and fakery and have clamped on like a pit bull. These allegations are indeed the "tipping point" which has begun the end of Kerry's credibility. If he does not release his full military records and diary (which he has not done) he will be unable to restore credibility on this. The very fact that Kerry is content to let his supporters and detractors duke it out in a "pissing contest" of allegations and cross allegations even though it's clearly hurting him with vets in key states [10] let's me know for sure that the alternative - releasing all the full records and directly addressing the charges themselves, is far worse. I am simply amazed that you seem unwilling to apply the correct political calculus to this. The issue about the 1st Purple is simple: If Kerry lied about that, his Vietnam exit was fraudulent. Suffice it to say, the allegations about the 1st Purple Heart are an absolute dagger at the heart of his credibility with Vietnam veterans. The point of all this is that there are many, many former grunts who are well able to surmise that Kerry gamed the system for the "3 and out" medals - and they resent him for it. The two things vets resent Kerry for the most is the gaming of the system for the "3 and out" medals and his 1971 slander against vets alleging war crimes. These are his two Achilles heels with the vets and he can do nothing about it. Having said all that, perhaps you should read this for a nice summary of the other evidence (other than what Admiral Schachte is also saying). Against the many pieces of evidence undercutting him, Kerry offers only denials through his campaign staffers and the word of two former crewmates. This is what I mean about "preponderance" of the evidence - there is more against him on this point than for him. In fact Admiral Schachte's comments are simply the coup de grace. Now as to your silly "Bush=War Criminal" comments, please take note:
Here are some links:
And of course, if Bush is a "war Criminal" so too is Senator Edwards:
Some asked for a "vote" And they got one link (Kerry and Edwards BOTH voted yes)
Food for oil scandal: here, here and here
Also, my contentions being advanced against Kerry are based on bona-fide allegations from reputable sources which have not been debunked or rebutted.
Are you saying that there is even one legal scholar of good repute anywhere in the world still advancing the "Bush = war criminal" charge on a basis that has not already been rebutted? If this is what you are saying, you are wrong. Various US legal scholars have debunked all Iraq-related "Bush = war criminal" charges - both domestic and international. I challenge you to send me even one link which proves otherwise.
Suffice it to say, I offer real allegations against Kerry, you offer false musings about Bush. I am not persuaded by your line of reasoning.
Rex071404 06:35, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
May I suggest that this page is not a place to discuss the relative merits of evidence surrounding Kerrys medals nor a place to discuss if Bush is a war criminal nor even a place to discuss the contents of the wikipedia articles upon those subjects? Iain 13:30, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Firstly, thank you, Fred, for getting things going with this again. But I've got to say that it seems a bit unfair to be admonishing Bkonrad and Rex equally for violations of Wikiquette.
While Bkonrad may have been impolite at times, I honestly don't see how, at least in this area, he can even be considered to be in the same ballpark as Rex. It would appear that there may be a handful of posts in which he may have lost his cool. On the other side, however, you have repeated violations of Wikiquette, over several weeks, in the face of numerous warnings. It seems very unfair to tar the two with the same brush. Ambi 13:53, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Members of the Committee,
I believe that your honourable Committee may be about to exceed the reasonable limits of its power. In Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Rex071404/Proposed decision, it is suggested as follows: "Edits by any user which carry an unreasonable degree of detail into the article, John Kerry, subverting its nature as a general summary of John Kerry's biography and background may be reverted by any other user. Users who repeatedly restore such detailed material which in the opinion of any Wikipedia administrator represent the intrusion of the Presidential campaign of 2004 into the article may be banned from editing the article until after the election. Refusal to respect such a ban shall be grounds for banning the user from Wikipedia until after the election."
In his vote, Daniel Mayer writes, "We should not be limiting what people who are not part of this arbitration may do." I would find myself in agreement. Policy states, "The arbitrators will not hear disputes where they have not been requested to arbitrate." This clause appears to indicate, in my opinion, that the committee has no jurisdiction except where a specific request has been made. The complaints and counter-complaints filed by the parties only involve each other. They do not involve any third party. Consequently, I submit that the Committee has, at present, no jurisdiction over these third parties.
Moreover, the Committee is not empowered to make policy; it can only interpret present policy. By declaring a punishment for an offence which is yet to be committed by users who have no "criminal records," the Committee engages in a policy-making or legislative act which is beyond its proper boundaries. It also engages in policy-making by granting powers to Administrators.
The Committee also violates the principle of due process (which I feel applies because policy declares that "sensible 'real world' laws" should be taken into consideration). The proposal empowers Administrators to become judges, juries and executioners in their own right. Each Administrator could arbitrarily impose a punishment as grave as a two-month ban. There are absolutely no standards to govern the conduct of any Administrator; everything is left to the mere "opinion," and that too of "any Wikipedia administrator"—not a panel of Administrators where power can be checked, but a single Administrator.
Hence, I respectfully submit that the proposed measure encourages arbitrary exercise of power, and exceeds the Committee's jurisdiction. -- Emsworth 01:49, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
While relying on the opinion of a sole administrator may seem unreasonable, the penalty (not being able to edit the specific article for the next few months) is very mild for anyone who is interested in positively contributing to Wikipedia. Admittedly it is much harsher for anyone who might seek to edit Wikipedia to promote an external agenda, but such non-contributors do not concern me. Martin 01:15, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I take strong exception to the second #5 under the "Proposed findings of fact": "The compaining witnesses in this matter because of their numerical majority felt that Rex071404 did not represent a point of view which had a magnitude of importance equal to theirs despite its societal significance."
That is not even close to a correct statement of what I, as one of the complaining witnesses, felt (or feel). First, I don't enshrine the views of a "numerical majority", as is alleged here. (I have on occasion pointed out to Rex that he was the only person taking a particular position, against the judgment of everyone else, but I don't think I've implied that a majority vote was the be-all and end-all. On occasion, my comment has been in response to a claim by Rex that there was a "consensus" for a view that, in fact, only he supported.) Second, I've always tried to be fair to the anti-Kerry POV. Nowhere in the Evidence or in any of the other pages connectected with this arbitration do I see any support for the implication that I haven't been fair. It's frustrating to find this kind of criticism surfacing for the first time in the proposed findings. I feel like I'm fighting with shadows:
My comments don't apply to the first version of #5, which says only that Rex felt that everyone else was being unfair to him. I don't know to what extent his disruptive conduct is to be excused on the basis of his perceptions, but at least that version doesn't imply that his perceptions were accurate. I respectfully suggest that the other version would take the committee somewhat far afield from the matters that have been properly presented to it for resolution.
While that version remains up for consideration, though, I'll do what I can to provide some general evidence on the Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Rex071404/Evidence page. JamesMLane 22:22, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Addendum: I've provided some evidence at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Rex071404/Evidence#Evidence against one version of item 5 in "Proposed findings of fact". The table of contents of that Evidence page has become confused. When Rex inserted his response, under the heading "Rex responds", he used only one equal sign on each side, making his headline nice and big but throwing off the organization. My new section should be on its own, not as a subsection under "Rex responds" -- I certainly don't want to give the impression that what I've written is part of Rex's response. The problem could be fixed by changing "=Rex responds=" to "==Rex responds==", and changing his subheadings from == to ===. This simple and sensible change would be better coming from Rex or from a committee member, though. If I were to change anything Rex wrote, I would surely be subjected to one of his typically vehement denunciations. JamesMLane 02:11, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Under the proposal as of now, would Rex's temporary injunction still stand? [[User:Neutrality| Neutrality ( talk)]] 22:33, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I've just been alerted to this finding of fact - 6) The compaining witnesses in this matter, because of their numerical majority, felt that Rex071404 did not represent a point of view which had a magnitude of importance equal to theirs, despite its societal significance.
I'd question on what basis this is justified, and what evidence that has been submitted that supports this conclusion. At the very least, I believe the statement should be qualified, if there are indeed any people that did act this way.
The anti-Kerry perspective of course, has an equal magnitude of importance to any other. For those of us on both sides of the political divide who are here to see a neutral article, rather than to try and sway public opinion of someone either way, we accept this as a must. As I've stated numerous times, Rex is not the only one holding an anti-Kerry, pro-Bush view in this. Both Cecropia and VeryVerily hold the same view, and I don't believe I've had any problems with either of them. They hold different views, and where I've had to, I believe I, and others, have been able to work with them in order to create a better article, regardless of our differences in opinion. I'm being accused of silencing other viewpoints because I happen to be in the majority here, yet I have no issues with two of the three anti-Kerry users. Strange, that.
The Committee has already proposed findings of fact and remedies that have opposed the turning of John Kerry into a blow-by-blow description of mudslinging efforts. Yet this has, in a large part, been caused by the complaining witnesses being willing to work with Rex, and to try to accomodate his (often extremely biased) point of view. Take Lyellin for example. Lyellin stepped in and proposed numerous compromise versions, trying to work in Rex's specific concerns, and dealing with no small amount of abuse from him for doing so. Yet he, too, is included in this insulting description of "fact".
It's apparent from the evidence page, even as shown by Rex's last post this very morning, that Rex has trouble distinguishing between undisputed facts, and his own conclusions about someone's character from them. But despite this, many of us have taken the time to try and accomodate Rex's perspectives re: these "controversies", and have at least attempted to alleviate his concerns.
It does complicate things that Rex is greatly outnumbered, but that is no excuse for this behaviour, and in any case, there are at least two other users with the same point of view that have been able to discuss the issue reasonably and rationally, and have received the same from at least a significant portion of the complaining witnesses. I believe that at least several of the complaining witnesses have put in countless hours trying to reason with Rex, and do not, as this finding of "fact" puts it, "[feel] that Rex071404 did not represent a point of view which had a magnitude of importance equal to theirs, despite its societal significance".
In the end, I'm left rather offended by this, and I believe that several other users, such as Lyellin, have even more reason to be so. We've spent weeks attempting to deal with this particular mess, endured vast amounts of personal attacks, and now we're subjected to this unwarranted and undeserved attack on our characters and reputations. Ambi 09:47, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The problem is that a significant minority consisting of millions of people within the United States not only agree with Rex but would probably go even further. He is not that idiosyntric in the conclusions he draws despite characterization of "his (often extremely biased) point of view" while insisting that your own edits are not biased. Tangling the article up with the current election campaign takes it outside the area of reasoned observation and argument into the perceptions and conclusions people have. Fred Bauder 14:57, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
From where I stand, reaching consensus means that reasonably presented views, even if in the minority are to be given a best efforts attempt by all editors towards inclusion.
Consensus decision making is not supposed to entail simply "out-voting" the minority voice. Rather, than a single color or striped view, a blended view is a consensus view. Now admittedly, my anti-Kerry/pro-Bush views are well known (mostly because of my talk page comments - not my edits). However, my edits still ought to have been viewed in the light of how they would read in the article itself - by a typical person not how my co-editors feel about me and my views. NPOV is attained when the end result of the article is fair and balanced. It is not attained by putting a fine-tooth strainer to every aspect of every edit. Frankly, some edits will indeed be more pregnant with meaning than others. But, if on the whole, balance and perspective is achieved, then an article can rightly be deemed to be NPOV. Personally, I am persuaded that my opponents here so suspect me and my motives, that they cannot grasp that some of my edits, such as the one discuseed at length here
[11] were really no big deal and that the opposition to them is indeed making a mountain out of a molehill [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 16:16, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I am well, shocked by seeing this finding. Doublely so because it just seems to be a complete undermining of everything else taht went on, and all the work that so many editors have done not only on the cited pages, but new ones as well, to create NPOV. Please, read through the talk pages, read through the copious archives. Look at all the compromise versions, from me, from James, from so many others, and ask how in the world we can say that the majority was just bowling over the minority here. Lyellin 21:25, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
Rex has laudably retracted all counter-complaints. [12] How does that affect these proceedings, and the authority of arbcom to impose sanctions or restrictions on the complainants? Wolfman 15:22, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
This is what the decision looks like to me: because one person does injustice to many people, those many people get sanctioned, and the one person goes free.
Do you think they pose a threat because they have larger numbers? Is this an attempt to combat that threat? That's paranoia.
ya, sure, many people have stronger views than rex, but this isn't about pov. this is about NPOV. And just because some people think that people need to hear testimony from someone who wasn't there more than testimony from someone who was there, and one person tries to make it that way, doesn't mean that that's the way it should be. And it doesn't mean that those who object - those who think we should work towards npov - are "ganging up" on a person for a personal attack, and that they therefore, deserve sanction. no. that is an injustice if i ever heard it. i highly disagree with the proposed decision. it is in direct contradiction with the proposed finding of fact. Kevin Baas | talk 18:06, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)
So far, we've not seen any suggestion of any permanent relief from Rex's persistent edit warring. Since this arbitration started, he's been involved in edit wars on at least five more articles, and I can't say I've seen anything much else in the way of contributions from him. I point the commitee to this latest edit, in which Rex unilaterally makes a small, but clearly POV change, and then, when Neutrality reverts him, re-reverts with the edit summary "rv - neutrality there is a discussion underway at talk. please join it and wait for answers before you revert this again. Thank you". When we started here, his edits had been limited to John Kerry, but now we've seen a pattern of similar conduct on a wide range of articles.
So I'm inclined to ask - is any strong action going to be taken here? I'm wary of drawing comparisons, but it seems that RK is going to banned for four months for very similar behaviour. The only differences I can see between the two cases is that we haven't had to put up with Rex for as long, and that unlike RK, Rex hasn't made any major contributions outside of his edit wars.
With the way things have been going, I believe unless some action, be it in the form of a ban or some sort of parole, is taken to stop his edit warring, that many articles will continue to be protected over attempts to insert bias, until some action is taken, be it in this case, the second case which is about to be heard, or future ones that seem to be almost inevitable if something isn't done here. Ambi 14:14, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Thank you for pointing this out to us. I think with Rex not editing John Kerry but free to edit in other areas looking at the nature and tone of those edits gives us a good chance to evaluate how broad our relief needs to be. Fred Bauder 14:55, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)
I think it's also worth noting this edit and this edit on Talk:Ann Coulter. Indeed, I believe this was the sort of behaviour that Rex swore that he would refrain from around the time of the temporary order. This shows that, even today, he's still doing the same things as on the Kerry article itself. Ambi 01:30, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
What strikes me about the Lawrence v. Texas article is that instead of using the characterizations of the import of the decision which could have been obtained from the decision itself and especially from the dissenting opinion (or reports of the decision) Rex himself is engaging in analysis of the situation, characterizing the decision as "disruptive". Certainly some language could have been found in the dissenting opinion or opinions which would have said more or less the same thing but in an authoritative way which then could have been attributed. These reports of cases can, by the way, be found in any major public library. Probably there is enough in journalistic reports of the dissent. As to Ann Coulter, she is in essence a troll, as we understand trolling being intentional stirring up. That her Wikipedia article and attempt to edit it reflect her nature is to be expected. Fred Bauder 13:21, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)
I think progress was made. I guess in response to replacement of "important" by "disruptive" both characterizations are more or less self evident but come from us rather than from commentators. Fred Bauder 18:24, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)
My response would be that instead of seeing something wrong, so putting in another wrong (speculation both times), instead take out the first problem. Lyellin 18:47, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)
Well same thing is going on with Neutrality who in the last edit I looked at described the decision as one of the most important cases ever decided. I would beg to differ. Fred Bauder 01:35, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)
Everyone here seems to be missing the point I raised which was: I feel that my initial edit to "disruptive" did not require prior discussion because as I have explained, it is the view of 60%+ of Americans. Even so, let's say for the sake of argument that my usage of "disruptive" existed as being valid only in my own mind. Even with that as the case, my edit - when it was made - was made on a basis of being understood by me as being valid. In other words - in good faith. This being the case, when Neutrality came along and disputed my edit with a reversion (not a subsequent edit) he turned my efforts from being a mere edit to a controversy. And it is at that point - a reversion that Neutrality was by rights, obligated to dialog. To me it's obvious that reversions are by their nature more controversial than edits and as such, carry a higher burden to dialog each of them than edits do. This is especially true when a user (such as Neutrality did here) reverts another four times in a very short period of time. Also, for the record, it should be noted that (at least as best as I can remember) most (if not all) of the revert battles I have been in did not orginally start with me making the 1st revert to the text in dispute. Rather, it was an by me, followed by a reversion by someone else which was the sequence of events. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 05:15, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Kizzle, you are missing the point. This "revert" war occurred primarily because there is no communication between Neutrality and myself. Suffice it to say, of those comments you make about my edits here (above), several of them could easily have been made on this page by Neutrality at any time prior to his fourth revert - the one which prompted the temporary protection of this article. You are simply missing the point if you don't see that Neutrality has a long term pattern of reverting me repeatedly without dialog. Could this be because as he often states - he thinks I'm a "troll"? Perhaps. Likewise, you assert that I have expressed suspicions about you perhaps being a "sockpuppet". Indeed, I have suspected that and I still do. If you notice though, I do answer your inquires and dialog with you. This is more than can be said for Neutrality's dealings towards me. Also, the revert against you by me which you cite, does not in any way approach the pattern of reverts against me by Neutrality. Comparing the two is fallacious reasoning. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 15:21, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Kizzle, I never suggested who I thought you are - only what. And frankly, if you were not stalking me by following my user contributions list, you would not have found my citation of you as an example to Fred Bauder. It's one thing to raise a potential example - as I did to Fred. It's quite another to come out and directly accuse, which I have not done. You are making an error by butting in on a dialog which is none of your beeswax. Also, I do not agree with your assessments and I am now asking you to stop intruding on my ongoing dialogs with others. Thank you. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 16:20, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Kizzle, I asked you to please butt out. If you want to converse with me, please comment on my talk page, not here. You are not a party to this arbitration case. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 16:39, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
so, Rex? What say you now? --
kizzle 16:59, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It's evident from his comments that "Kizzle" has bone to pick with me. This is why I asked him to direct his comments which are specific to me, to my talk page. I think that is a reasonable request. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 01:55, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I believe I have. But if "Kizzle's" comment reflects his true thoughts, then it's clear that "Kizzle" is commenting here only to "prove" himself "right" not truly dialog. This has been apparent to me for some time and it's why I asked Kizzle to dialog with me on my talk page - not here. I'll note for the record, that Kizzle has not done that. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 14:12, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The sentence to which "Kizzle" refers, can be found on Fred Bauder's talk page
here. If anyone cares to see my dialog with Fred there, they are welcome to do so. As for "Kizzle's" complaints about
Texans for Truth, I urge anyone who is interested, to review the accompanying talk page there and decide for yourself if "Kizzle's" tenacious haranguing of me about that here, is warranted. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 20:09, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I don't understand you at all, Rex. You'll spend acres of text trying to explain why you won't answer something instead of just answering the simplest of questions. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 20:50, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
True consensus editing ala
Consensus decision making would entail the group of editors who outnumber me making a better effort to subsume my ideas and suggestions - as demonstrated by my edits - than they do. Frankly, what I have have experienced from time to time on various pages is not "collaborative editing", but mob rule - albeit nicely perfumed by the self-congratulatory agreement of the majority. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 00:44, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Gamaliel, since you obviously won't concede that the "question" which has been asked 14 times is loaded, I'll ask you one: "Have you stopped beating your wife"? Yes? Aha! You admit that you have beaten your wife! No? You are a wife beater! That's roughly equal to the silly "gotcha!" scam you guys are running against me at TfT. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 04:13, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Let me see if I can explain this again for the 15th million time: SBVT is harsher on the SBVT people than TfT is on the TfT people. I plan to bring these into parity. SBVT's attacks on Kerry are muted throughout the article by defenses and rebuttals which favor Kerry. Likewise, I plan to be make sure that the GWB position is advanced similarly on TfT. How I get there, will, in large measure depend on what the other editors oppose me on. Suffice it to say, if they oppose me as aggressively has they have so far and each side defends their turf as forcefully as we have, the going is gonna be slow. This is not my fault. It is the fault of those who insisted on larding up the SBVT article - and in doing so, set a difficult to attain parity target for TfT. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 04:26, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I did not agree to the SBVT spin off. In fact, SBVT page was not extant when I was banned from
John Kerry. You are confusing it with VVAW, the spinoff of which I opposed. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 06:15, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It's not that I equate them, it's that I have answered it 15 times already. For this reason, continuing to ask it amounts to a trick of some sort, so in that vein, they have the same effect. Perhaps my response to any further repetition of the same old TfT harangues which I have already answered should be "asked and answered". [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 06:15, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"Kizzle" demands answers. And if yours don't satisfy him, he will try to harm you (see above) - be warned. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 15:48, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"Kizzle" has been answered, many times. He just doesn't like the answers. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 17:42, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Gamaliel, the way you frame that question shows that you are utterly disregarding the answers I have already given. I have several times reiterated my macro answer and within that have pointed out at least one subset of concern with greater specificity. Suffice it to say, I feel that your endless repeating of already answered questions is tantamount to harrassment. Please stop it. Also, "Kizzle" and I are now in mediation about his complaints regarding TfT, etc. Since his complaints and yours are similar, you are welcome to follow that dialog. Bear in mind though, that mediation is between "Kizzle" and me. Therefore, please do not intrude with comments on the mediation page. Lastly, since "Kizzle" and me are now in mediation about TfT, I will not be dialoging elsewhere regarding that, until "Kizzle" and I conclude our mediated dialog. Please bear this in mind and limit your inquiries of me to non-TfT topics. Thank you. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 22:44, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"Kizzle" please understand; "mediation" on this Wiki as a dispute resolution process, is a facilitated dialog between an "invitor" (in this instance, you) and an "invitee" (in this instance, me) which is intended to resolve the resolvable issues between those two parties. If you insist on inviting additional parties in to comment and talk, I will be once again outnumbered and boxed in. That's not what I signed up for or agreed to. Please be advised, if you bring in anyone other than me, you and the mediator, I will opt out. I am interested in resolving my differences with you and only you via this particular mediation. If any others want to do the same, let them request their own mediation. Of course, they can still read along, but I expect them to butt out of the mediaiton itself. And in fact, I recently learned that mediators can delete comments from a mediation page if those comments are not from one of the actual parties to the mediation. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 23:31, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
True, but if "Kizzle" comes around to my point of view, it will no longer be 4 to 1 on TfT, but 3 to 2. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 03:36, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Extremely wary as I am after having viewed the fate of others who attempt this sort of thing, I am still determined to see the committee redress what I perceive to be a central problem.
The issue at hand is that this arbitration has been brought about by user conduct. It has increasingly become sidetracked to the issue of conflicting POV's, but that remains a distraction to the crux of the arbitration, which is how Rex relates with other users.
As I observe this dispute from the sidelines, what strikes me is the consistency of Rex's practices. He has an extreme preference for having the last word - thus seeing pages such as Talk:John Kerry and increasingly, this page, becoming bloated to ridiculous levels. For all Rex's supposed outnumbering, and for all the times he laments the conspiracy of harassment formed against him, one gets the distinct impression that the discussions and dealings with him are always dominated by him, both in terms of volume, and in terms of fierceness and intensity.
On that, the general level of vitriol in Rex's edits is (at least, from my experience) nothing short of astounding. He interprets every comment on his actions as an ad-hominem attack of the highest order and immediately responds in kind. It is important to note that the incendiary quality of his rhetoric has not gradually increased in response to a perception of being outnumbered or stymied, but rather has maintained itself at the same level since his first appearance. Personal attacks such as [23], even while Rex is in the throes of two arbitrations, have been characteristic of his editing style for as long as he has been here. By contrast, lapses of judgement by the editors ranged against him are occasional in their nature, and recognised as such. Observe Rex's regular practice of trawling the talk pages of other users, and immediately responding to any mention of him. Nothing similar is evinced by any other of the editors Rex is so fond of accusing.
In short, I think where Rex has been quite successful is in exploiting his situation. Accusations of cabalism are extremely easy to manufacture and require little in the way of support, especially if one is so unutterably self-righteous. Any accusation against Rex is immediately buried in a stack of hastily-assembled counter-claims that are in general quite successful at taking the focus off Rex's own conduct. The shrillness and intensity is apparently seen by the ArbCom as a response by Rex to his situation. But I believe, the narrow focus of Rex's edits, the amount of time and patience that he is willing to contribute in attacks against other users (considerably less than any of his opponents) and actions in general which seem to cry out for a volume control, indict him as a user who promotes disruptive tactics. The arbitration now seems to be an evaluation of how the users attacked by Rex should best respond, rather than the fact that Rex has been so combative in the first place. An injustice would be served if those users who were unfortunate enough to encounter Rex were to be further burdened and tarred for having the patience to endure him rather than buckle under the pressure. Lacrimosus 21:30, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The truth, JML is that you are intentionally stoking discord at TfT. That fact is inescapable and does not square with your protestations - which are Lady Macbeth like. 02:58, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It seems to me, perhaps, that the gulf between users here reflects a difference of approach to the problem. Rex seems to put primary significance on intentions: he views himself as having good intentions, and others to be malicious, and seeks evidence that supports this. He seems to view interactions in this light. Conversely, those on the other side of Rex, generally speaking, place importance on matters of phrasing, for example, or timing, or context - on various different conventions. They maintain that they uphold conventions while Rex violates them. What approach the arbcom itself takes is a matter of speculation. Lacrimosus 04:32, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Having still seen no further action as to permanent remedies, Rex has now launched strong and disgusting attacks on numerous users. On the evidence page for this very case, he has said JamesMLane is a "obsesed and weird stalker and I'm glad he doesn't know my real name. I feel that he is really sick and needs help". Straight under that, he's also made what I have trouble believing wasn't a gaybashing attempt, though he's since denied it. On Talk:Fulbright Hearing, he's said he was "amazed" at the "bottom feeding habits" of Gamaliel and JamesMLane. On the same page, he's referred to disagreeing editors as "jackals". And he's still attacking the integrity of his detractors, referring to their "single-minded pro-Kerry bias".
Around the time of the temporary order, Rex swore that he'd changed his ways and had stopped personally attacking people. These edits, all in the space of today, make a mockery of that. If nothing else, surely a personal attack parole is deserved here. One should not have to put up with regular personal abuse for being involved in talk page discussions. Ambi 05:03, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Ah, so then, what does this tell you about how little attention I am paying to gender or sexuality roles here? Also, the term "peeing contest" refers to a futile display of one-upsman-ship. Even so, while it would not be effective as literal analogy in a mixed-gender dialog, it is still effective if all persons know it's meaning and it's used figuratively. That said, if Ambi is a woman and/or is offended, I'd be happy to apologize. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 06:09, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I don't think it's appropriate for Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Rex071404/Proposed decision to turn into yet another interminable exchange of opinions, so I'm placing my response to Rex here.
One of his comments is:
This is a typical misstatement by Rex. My first edit to Stolen Honor was this one -- instead of Rex's version, that the POW's in the video "make it clear that they suffered" because of Kerry, I said they "alleged that they suffered". Rex's version improperly adopted their allegations as fact. My major substantive edit was this one, adding information about the video's producer's ties to Bush -- information that's in the current version that Rex lauds. My other substantive edit was this one, adding one sentence to explain an obscure comment in the article. It lasted all of four minutes before Rex reverted it. I then commented on the talk page, concluding: "My edit is a clear improvement on the current text but it's yet another minor point where you'll get your way by virtue of your demonstrated willingness to engage in endless reverts and denunciations." [27] My suggested addition had the support of Gamaliel, kizzle, and Wolfman. No one has agreed with Rex. Nevertheless, Rex is getting his way. The sentence isn't in the article now. Apparently everyone else feels as I do, that it's yet another point where we just don't want to deal with all the imprecations and revert wars that "somehow" crop up in articles Rex edits.
So, Rex, what action of mine in Stolen Honor was unreasonable? and why isn't your attack on me subject to the comment you yourself made about Ambi in the preceding section: "Also, please note that Ambi provides not actual links to my edits...."? JamesMLane 01:35, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
People might want to take a look at Rex's comment on Fred Bauder's page... don't know if he's serious or not:
-- kizzle 04:15, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)
On the project page, Neutrality has noted Rex's apparent departure. Other people have stormed off in a huff, only to return. In Rex's case, it was obviously his strong feelings about the U.S. presidential election that led him to the conduct many of us considered unacceptable. By now the election is only a few weeks away. I don't know what's normally done if a user departs while a proceeding is pending, but I suggest that any archiving of this proceeding be deferred until after the election. JamesMLane 17:58, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The motion to close should be voted down in light of recent events. Rex has returned and has announced a planned campaign against the "turdballs", the "the liberal Wiki-cabal", the "nyudnicks", the "sissified daisy-chain echo chamber", the "Kangaroo Court" and at least one "biased phoney". (Incidentally, this is the same Rex who assured the Arbitration Committee on August 9 as follows: "As my name shows, I have been here for lesss than a month and each week, my courtesy to others has grown. There is no rational basis to infer, suggest or anticipate that I will make rude comments about others." [28])
Another point that I should have thought of earlier: Rex cross-complained against several of us. Even if he had not returned, it would be a disservice to us for the committee to archive this proceeding without expressly ruling on the cross-complaints. I, for one, would like to have my name cleared, rather than having charges against me that are technically still open. JamesMLane 09:11, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
You can think what you want, but the truth is that this Wiki is biased against conservative editors. Frankly, after I write up a "how-to" manual, which will assist other conservatives from getting trapped in this endless cycle of mendacity and complaints (such as all this "Arbcom" crap), I am going to go to all my conservative blogs and recruit 100 new editors, who, armed with what I learned here, will be able to outwit you turdballs and overthrow the liberal Wiki-cabal that tries to rule the roost around here. Mark my words, this Wiki will either eventually have to go to a closed model, or you will have to stop siding with nyudnicks such as JamesMLane and Neutrality. To let Neutrality get away with what he did at
Dedham, Massachusetts shows that this Wiki leadership team which is hounding me is nothing more than a sissified daisy-chain echo chamber. Enough with your Kangaroo Court! And that goes for you too Ambi, you biased phoney! [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 04:17, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Well, he can be excused I think; but Rex, I am hearing exactly the same from User:Shorne and User:Ruy Lopez who claim Wikipedia is dominated by the right wing. Fred Bauder 15:34, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
The fact that Ambi refers to a goal of adding in new crew of conservative editors a "a threat to the very existence of Wikipedia" proves without a doubt the utter and total Liberal bias of her and those who think like her. Either that or Ambi is just plain stupid. This sentence: "overthrow the liberal Wiki-cabal that tries to rule the roost around here", does not in any way indicate a goal of harming or closing down this Wiki. Rather, it speaks of a goal of getting enough new conservative voices so that the Ambi/JamesMLane/Neutrality, etc cabal will no longer be able to "out-vote" conservatives on every talk page. Do you have any idea how many IP addresses I have access to? I have unfettered access to scores of dozens of disparate, non-related IPs. Had I wanted to do harm, I would have long ago created two dozen of my own sock-puppets and would have out-voted you dumbos on each dispute myself (and if Neutrality isn't "Feldspar", then most likely JamesMLane is). The fact is that it's more important to me to try to get the truth out in a truthful manner, than it is to do it by cheating. And that's why I've not cheated. The truth here is that this Wiki has a limited, core group of over-educated, but dumb people (see ref to cabal above) who have too much influence. For example, if Feldspar isn't dumb or biased, why did he give up on
Dedham, Massachusetts? And as for Kizzle's comment of "I don't see how in any way this behavior can be excused", it's simply idiotic. There is absolutely no mechanism in place at this Wiki which could in any way prevent me from having already re-joined several weeks ago under a new name and new IP address (perhaps via megaproxy.com or via VNC into my office network or rebooting my DSL modem) and if I had done that, what comes of all these "Arbcom" complaint idiocies? Oh boo-hoo. I reverted a few people and was rude to a few people, big deal! Did I unleash a "Michael"-bot (one which could insert false facts randonly into articles - perhaps via a date alteration script...) on you? No! In fact, other than piss-off a few pro-Kerry zealots, I basically have not done anything wrong. Good Lord! Where do people Like Feldspar, Neutrality and JamesMLane (even too Kizzle and Wolfman) find the time to endlessly fued with people over so much minutiae? Does anyone even remember how all this started? It started back at
John Kerry primarily over my efforts to insert the word "minor" in regards to Kerry's 1st wound. How any reasonable person would disupte that word as being accurate, boggles my mind. He was treated with Bacitracin and a bandaid. What kind of injury is that? A MINOR ONE !!!! There is no other way to describe it. On the other hand, this same Wiki is content to allow the
George W. Bush page to have age old crap inferring "insider-trading" on stock and shady deals on ballparks. Frankly, I decided on
Beating a dead horse as my last contributors edit to this Wiki as a tongue-in-cheek double entendre. It's indeed what I've experienced with this crew and frankly, I simply don't care any more. They say that a fair definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over again, yet each time expecting different results. I've determined that the results I get in dealing with this particular Wiki-cabal won't change. Therefore, the only question in my mind which remains is, do I rejoin at some point with new name and new IP? Perhaps, but if I do, no one invloved with me here will ever find out. So then, the next time you run someone like me out of Dodge City, like you have done to me, who will be repeating the same old thing? What did this Wiki learn or gain by chasing me away? Simply; nothing. Frankly, I think that the page
White cracker which I started perfectly underscores the blind spot in the group think around here. Why was such an obvious entry missing from this Wiki? Because those who edit here the most are unable to conceptualize that anyone other than a white person could possibly be racist or a bigot. In other words, it's the articles which don't get written which also shows the group-think around here. So will this Wiki ever post any facts about the true genesis of the motives for the "no establishment of religion" clause (see
Talk:Dedham, Massachusetts) and the original reasons for it? Probably not. And why not? Because the Liberals are intent on re-writing history to suit their own pro-Gay, anti-religious (more like anti-Christian) purposes. This is why on this Wiki, we can find tidbits about shock photos of a man stretching his anus, but we can't get a few simple facts about the true history of
Dedham, Massachusetts edited in. Good, go ahead and embrace educated buffoons like "Feldspar" (whoever he is), you deserve him. [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 07:08, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
With the above statement of Rex's in mind, I formally request that provisions be made to extend any verdict in this case to any potential sockpuppets, as was done in the PolishPoliticians precedent, if my memory serves me correctly. Ambi 08:12, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
That happens automatically. If we can identify them. Fred Bauder 14:28, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
I think it is clear that Rex is not gone and is not inactive. Does anyone doubt that this is Rex? -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:02, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Will the ban apply only to articles which by their nature involve United States politics? Or will the ban apply equally to the insertion of political material into non-political articles? -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:18, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
To get to the point, it would not cover Dedham, Massachusetts. Really I don't see why you are deleting the edits he is making there. He cites, A New England Town: The First Hundred Years : Dedham, Massachusetts, 1636-1736 (Norton Essays in American History), a book which sells used for about $3.00. Why don't you both buy it and take a good look at it? Fred Bauder 18:18, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)
Is Feldspar saying that the fact that John Kerry's 1st "wound" was minor, was also "invented out of whole cloth"? [[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]] 05:30, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Bla Bla Bla 216.153.214.94 07:35, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
My observations of Feldspar's repeatedly reverts against both Rex071404 (and this anon IP editor) at Dedham, Massachusetts make me wonder how he justifies getting so exorcized when his edits are reverted for seemingly irrational/illogical reasons. Perhaps what's good for the goose, is not good for the gander, in his view?... 216.153.214.94 08:10, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It's not good for either of you, remember it is the bulldog attitude that got you here, not mere POV. Fred Bauder 10:38, Oct 30, 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps being hounded by illogical, senseless reverts by people like Feldspar, is a prime reason Rex071404 left. Also, perhaps it was instances like JamesMLane, et al, who in refusing to allowing the true, non-POV word of "minor" to be used to describe John Kerry's 1st "wound" (way back in July/August) that set off an endless series of tit-for-tat, fighting and fueding. However, it seems that people like Feldspar don't think they are actually doing anything wrong. Perhaps such thinking is also in control of JamesMLane?... But of course, what do I know? I am simply a anon IP editor with no dog in that fight. 216.153.214.94 15:45, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Hmmm.... Wound classification cannot be a fact only a "conclusion"? Tell that to any triage center doctor at a battlefield army surgical center. Yes or No JamesMLane, is it true that John Kerry's 1st wound was "minor"? 216.153.214.94 04:35, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Rex, could you perhaps familiarize yourself with "tendentious"? There is no Wictionary entry for this but your above post regarding the minor wound is an excellent example. It is this tendentious attitude which is at issue, not your point of view or your political orientation. Fred Bauder 12:30, Oct 31, 2004 (UTC)
Hmmm... so then, Martha Stewart can't be called a "felon" nor the Red Sox to be said to have "defeated" the Yankees (and Cardinals and Angels) or perhaps if anyone asks what the word Israel means, we are not allowed to say that it means "one who has strength with G-d and man" after all we might be too "tendentious", if we did that. Har! You need to read Aesop's fable about the lion in the cave. The fox was too wise to get lured in to his death. There were plenty of footprints going into the cave, but none coming out. Likewise, it could also be said that you, Fred are being "tendentious" when you prohibit the use of a particular word. One can be "tendentious" in either what they do or what they don't do. This fact seems to escape you. It's not just what happens that matters, it's also what doesn't happeen. This is precisly why Napoleon said "What is history, but a fable agreed upon?" which roughly translates as "history is a set of lies agreed upon". Which I am sure, after having dealt with the likes of the liberal cabal at this Wiki, is in large measure why Rex071404 has that quote on his user page. 216.153.214.94 17:45, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm utterly amazed that (Fred, it seems) has toned down Rex's ban from a year to four months. He's utterly unrepentant - and indeed, his posts in recent weeks should show how bad he is, in that respect. The editors who have wasted time dealing with him (which, if you include Hadal and the others he's abused for reverting biased edits), would have reached at least fifteen in number by now, have been putting up with him for at least three months. For wasting all this time, and showing utterly no improvement - or desire to do so, he gets a four month ban. Shame, shame, shame. Ambi 05:34, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Well, don't panic. Once you become an arbitrator, which I think you will, you can propose and vote and all that. And you will see that it is not what you propose or what you vote for that holds things up but failure to either propose or vote. On the point, I may have overdone it and ought to suggest a more appropriate remedy. Fred Bauder 12:55, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)
Rex has now messaged all the parties involved in this case gloating about the presidential election... see my page ( User_talk:Kizzle#Rex.27s_comment) along with JamesMLane, Wolfman, and others probably..... why is he still allowed on Wikipedia at all? -- kizzle 22:27, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)
So Neutrality admits that he started a senseless (and ill-founded) revert war with Rex071404 at Lawrence v. Texas and that's why he wants to ban "Rex", so as to hide the truth about his own troublemaking? Or will he swear again and say that's "BS"? Hmmm..... come to think of it, wasn't Neutrality the prime-mover of all the pro-Kerry fluff back in July? Seem to recall seeing a list of edits somewhere which indicated that. 216.153.214.94 06:47, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hmmm... Didn't L. exchange prognostications about the EV count with "Rex"? Also, I see no "gloating" on L's page (nor any comment at all on Neutrality's). 216.153.214.94 06:47, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I see that JamesMLane is still stalking the edits of other users and still tells only 1/2 the story. 216.153.214.94 06:47, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hmmm... a bunch of sore losers, eh? 216.153.214.94 06:39, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Also, I don't even see why anyone here is complaining. My review of the edits in question indicate that "Rex" had his numbers wrong. The final EV count is 286 to 252, not 289 to 252. What is the big deal about someone exaggerating (or mis-typing) the total by 3 EV on a talk page? Seems like much ado about nothing. 216.153.214.94 07:20, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hmmm... If it were Eric Cartman you were talking to he's said something like "If Bush won, that means that someone lost. Come one Kizzle, who lost? Tell me who lost Kizzle. Kizzle who lost?" Of course, you are not talking to Eric Cartman, so no such conversation will occur. 216.153.214.94 15:27, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
So now you make perverse sexual insults? Please retract that statement. 216.153.214.94 03:25, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It has been almost 4 months I think since Rex graced us with his presence at Wikipedia. Through countless edit wars, page protections, constant reversions (20+ in one day, now commonplace through his sockpuppet ip address)... I have never seen a more clear-cut case of someone who is damaging to Wikipedia. There is simply no benefit to Rex's style of "concensus-building", and to him its as if we're contributing to a "Rexopedia" where his edits are justified without discussion and opposing edits must satisfy an imaginary line of proof (no proof has yet satisfied Rex in a disagreement). The level of personal attacks he has leveled against many, many members of Wikipedia over the months in addition to the reckless behavior on his 216. ip account which has gotten worse and worse. I have begun to respond to these attacks with my own personal attacks, because frankly I am sick and tired of dealing with this. It has been 4 months. Every page Rex has been a part of has greatly reduced in the ability to actually reach a concensus, and this does not mean the minority opinion has been ignored, rather Rex's edits reflect a clear POV even upon logical arguments or documented proof to the contrary. This is not to say that he is always wrong, but rather that his obstinant method of "concensus-building" does not allow room for compromise nor opposing viewpoints, thus even if he was right, instead of explaining he simply holds the page hostage and threatens to protect/NPOV tag/arbcom/mediation. G-d forbid this wiki should be ruled by people like Rex in the majority, it could not function.
This behavior is primarily due to a feeling of being "picked on" as violet puts it, as he is obviously scarred from the multiple encounters he has both been involved in. Due to his POV and Bush winning, along with the assumed invulnerability he is assuming by hiding behind a IP address, he is now engaging in all the worst behaviors he was accused of before, but now in vastly increased frequency.
I hereby request that action be taken above and beyond the simple ban of several articles, as this behavior is not politically related but rather extends to Rex's ability to work with others, which simply does not exist. A simple look at the history will see a long and exhausted attempt to dialog with Rex by nearly everyone involved, but this has got to stop. I am sick and tired of the defense that his viewpoint is simply in the minority and that we must account for minority opinions. I'm fine with that! If the committee does nothing further to curb this behavior, then this will set a precedent that a stream of personal attacks against other users is acceptable, which I have of late have begun to follow (which is not appropriate, and I will try to modify my own behavior, if I get kicked off wikipedia along with Rex I would gladly accept this punishment)...he should not be allowed to simply bully, denegrate, cajole, mock, and more importantly plead ignorance to opposing viewpoints.
Something must be done, and it must be done now. Vote on it, if its 0-9 then ok. Arbcom, please restore my faith in this wikipedia. If any others agree with me, please state below. If I am alone, so be it, as long as the possibility is entertained by the arbcom.-- kizzle 09:39, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)
Agree. What's up with the missing arbitrators? The case has been open for months. Wolfman 03:56, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
JamesMLane, I disagree with your assesments. Please provide additional proof. 216.153.214.94 20:53, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm trying my best to assume good faith here, but I simply cannot see why these proceedings have been so biased in favour of Rex. Rex has delivered barrages of insults. Rex has made accusations en masse. Rex has now moved into vandalism. Rex has shown a complete inability to cooperate with any other user in a way that has been almost unmatched by anyone. Yet somehow, after three months, we've seen almost no rulings on this - and yet somehow, a quip of "hi rex!" is suddenly a taunt that deserves mentioning?
I'm just disgusted. After all the time I've put into this project, some bloody reward. Ambi 12:15, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's not the "quip". It's the cavalier, no-dialog-on-talk-page revert which came with it. Ambi, you are indeed a trouble-maker. You just do a better job of hiding that fact. 216.153.214.94 20:51, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I totally agree that this idiot should be banned - show me one positive edit made in recent times that has not been disputed for factuality or POV. As a still-relatively-new wikipedian I find it shocking the way the whole banning process is conducted. Just kick this one idiot out and you'll make many good contributors much happier. It makes me laugh that I've spent so much time over the last few days dealing with a personal vendatta 216 has against me (along with numerous other users here) instead of contributing to the content of this pedia. violet/riga (t) 01:12, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Wouldn't "jerk" be a better term? After all, "jerk" would clearly be an opinion, though "idiot" infers a fact regarding intelligence. And from that standard, to my reading, Violet is more of an idiot than Rex. 216.153.214.94 05:39, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I can understand a reasoning why the proceedings would go easier on Rex and tougher on his opponents than the respective records of the parties would justify. It's a pattern that, I've gathered from my reading of Groklaw, is not infrequent within U.S. courts; a judge assigned to a case of very clear wrongdoing by a particularly intransigent party to the case cannot just say "Oh, come on, this is ridiculous, everyone can see that it's So-and-so who's causing all the trouble! Let's stop farting around; So-and-so, pack your bags, 'cause you're about to vacation at the Bars-On-The-Windows Hilton!" Ironically, when the judge reacts to a particularly obvious situation by treating it as particularly obvious, the wrongdoer can turn around and file an appeal to a higher court and claim that the judge must have been prejudiced against them -- just look at here and here and here in the record, your Honor! Judge Foofoo didn't even let me present my theory that the prosecution hired a Hollywood production company to film fake security camera footage of a robber who looks exactly like me stealing the money that I later accidentally spent when I found it under my mattress! How can you say I got a fair trial when the defense wasn't allowed to present its best theory?? -- so in order to make their judgements "appeal-proof", judges faced with an ironclad case will bend over backwards to give the party clearly in the wrong the benefit of every doubt, and make the other party truly prove their case. Then, in the case any room for an appeal is even left, the appeal court can see that Judge Foofoo didn't wrong the appealing party by holding them to an unfair standard; the appealing party was given every benefit of the doubt and even under standards biased in their favor, the result was still clear.
But I think there's problems with applying that strategy here. There is, unless I'm mistaken, no appeal court higher than the ArbCom, and thus no one to "appeal-proof" the judgements for. ArbCom is our court of appeal, our resource to say "Look, Rex reverts us without dialog; he accuses us loudly and publicly of being sockpuppets; he smears us as 'vandals' in his edit summaries on Vandalism in Progress; he throws wild accusations of bias and religious bigotry and hidden agendas; he stalks our edits; he makes threats; he blanks others' user pages; he makes direct threats to spam their user pages, reposting the same text daily until they are coerced to his desired action; he threatens RfArs against them; he violates the three-revert rule; he thumbs his nose at us by pretending his anon identity 216.153.214.94 A) has never heard of this "Rex" we keep talking about and B) has so much knowledge of who's in the right and who's in the wrong he's justified in picking up all Rex's battles and fighting them using just the methods Rex did -- please do something about him."
It's demoralizing to those good editors to reply to them with "We will respond to Rex's violation of community standards by allowing him to continue violating those standards, but holding you most stringently to those standards. You are forbidden to cite the open RfArs against him to show that he is not a reliable editor whose word can be taken at face value; however, he can misrepresent an administrator's words from that RfAr, justifying his third revert in two hours (followed by an illicit fourth just an hour later) with 'Feldspar has been warned by Fred Bauder to stop reverting'. At some point we may impose some sort of penalty on Rex for all his misdeeds, but you should know that we're already looking at how soon he'll be back and so you should treat him with the courtesy he has never shown to you." Good editors are already being driven away from Wikipedia because they know that even if they do something as unobjectionable as fixing a category tag, Rex may revert it just to prove that he can thumb his nose at them and get away with it. They are demoralized further when it's shown to them that, not only will the little things they do right be neither praised nor protected from the petty vengeance of a troublemaker, but the littlest things they do wrong -- something as small as the 'taunt' "Hi Rex!" -- will be held against them. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:54, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I actually think Rex has difficulty using references to extract information. And a propensisity to edit without adequate authority backing him up. I believe his edits to Dedham, Massachusetts demonstrate his failure. I don't think he needs a ban at all, but simply needs to not be allowed to revert and required to cite adequate references. The object is to put him to work editing rather than fooling around. Fred Bauder 20:14, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)
Please read this 216.153.214.94 18:16, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
you are more than a little frustrating to work with, Rex. Wolfman 03:48, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
mmmmm this is a juicy one -> [32] -- kizzle 03:41, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
On point 12, that one of the points on which I justified Rex's first edit at Dedham, Massachusetts was the fact that Rex was involved in this RfAr. This is true, I did in fact link to one of Rex's open RfArs. If I had to do it over again, I would have been more specific, and rather than link to this RfAr, I would have linked to these edits, ( [33], [34], [35], [36], and [37]), all of which occurred within the same hour as Rex's first edit to Dedham, MA and which taken together show a pattern of harassment, a pattern Rex continues even more blatantly in his guise as an anon.
On point 13, that it was Netoholic who broke the deadlock at the Dedham article by suggesting that Rex's information could be put into a separate article, to which the Dedham article could then point ( [38]), I must point out that in fact I made this exact suggestion previously, here. "Had the same information been inserted by an editor I trusted, I would still raise the same questions of relevance -- why not put this interesting information in an article of its own, and then link to that article? -- but I would not have had reason to doubt their correctness." It is true that I did not make this suggestion on the article talk page addressed directly to Rex; I raised it as an example of something that could have been done by an editor who was acting in good faith.
I frankly confess that it concerns me that some (not all) of the 'petty offenses' being referred to in the proposed findings essentially concern other parties not assuming good faith of Rex -- not at the beginning, when he had a clean record, and when good faith should have been assumed, but after Rex's propensity to say things for which he has no proof and even things that we know he knows to be false has been demonstrated and documented. It concerns me that some administrators are stating as fact that Rex's motives were genuine even though his research was flawed. It concerns me that I am being chastised for saying that Rex "has a problem with the truth" and his accusation on the same page that "it's clear that Feldspar has an agenda other than allowing edits which reflect the truth about America's Christian heritage" is passed over. Please, tell me -- how many times must a user demonstrate that they are not acting in good faith before the users they harass are allowed to stop assuming it? -- Antaeus Feldspar 20:46, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Feldspar points the finger of blame - at others, but not himself. 216.153.214.94 20:54, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
No matter what another user does you are responsible for following etiquette. Fred Bauder 20:56, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)
Even if he is banned for a year he will still be back and should be treated with respect. Fred Bauder 00:34, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)
What the hell is taking so long? Now Rex has gotten yet
ANOTHER page protected which needs to be unprotected in order to reflect the vast amount of information coming in about voter irregularities.
A decision needs to be reached now. -- kizzle 22:51, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
With Fred's latest edit, we have 3-0 in favor of banning Rex entirely for 6 months. What further needs to occur in order for this to actually be enforced? --
kizzle 00:30, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
In this edit, User:216.153.214.94 says, "I have quit the Wiki." Therefore, there could be no objection to an immediate block on that IP. The contributions history gives no reason to believe that the IP has been used by anyone other than Rex. JamesMLane 07:58, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Arbcom, thanks for restoring my faith in this wiki, either by ruling at all or taking into account 4 months of personal attacks, proected pages, insisting on unsourced additions, and just generally being a complete asshole, causing several users to leave this wiki altogether. Yeah, just prevent him from reverting, that'll stop him from personal attacks. Justice is served. -- kizzle 20:42, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
JamesF abstained on one of these points, citing "... and remove his ability to help fight vandalism? Maybe..."
Has Rex ever helped fight vandalism? Ambi 04:11, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)