I have to ask: Why are Shorne and VeryVerily being restricted from German and Polish articles? As far as I know, Gzornenplatz is the only editor whose activity in that area has been troublesome. —No-One Jones (m) 02:05, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Is Raul going to substantiate his claims?
I'm afraid that I must partly agree with the sentiment that the rulings and proposals are being a little sloppy with the evidence. For example:
I hope the arbitrators will take these points into consideration. -- Michael Snow 21:23, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Is the "finding of fact" that I "made no attempt at dialogue" based on the same quality of research that held that I had any role at all in the German/Polish naming edit wars? Very Verily 21:35, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
(post edit conflict with Raul above)
Finally, some specifics to refute point by point! Of course, this all needs to be looked at against the background that by the time many of those disputes started, Shorne was already well-established as a troublemaker and Ruy Lopez as a sockpuppet of an old enemy of Wikipedia:
Hopefully this will put these accusations to rest. Very Verily 09:32, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC) (updates Very Verily 09:38, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC))
Please also collect the following as findings of fact (no attempt at a dialogue):
This is biased. It fails to mention several salient points:
I ask that this proposed finding of fact be revised to include this important information. Shorne 04:46, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
VeryVerily has removed my comments from this page twice. I know that he can't control his penchant for destructive behaviour, but please do not allow him to do this. Shorne 09:38, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Findings of fact says:
"During many of those disputes...Ruy Lopez, and VeryVerily made no attempt at a dialogue."
My comments on this are firstly that, barring discussion of VeryVerily for a moment, I always attempt dialogue with other users when I have a dispute. The only user I could theoretically be accused of not attempting dialogue with is VeryVerily. So I would like it noted that I have only a possible failure at discussion with one user, a user who it seems has failures with many more people. I think VeryVerily's disregard of dialogue is much more widespread to me, and linked to many more users, so I don't think I should be put at the same level as he is with this.
My introduction to VeryVerily was he went through my edit history and reverted all of my recent changes. No talk page comments, no discussion page comments, not even edit page summaries, just "rv", "rv", "rv", "rv" in article after article. I see many users have complained about this. I don't know if there are any rules about this but only VeryVerily seems to do this on a wide scale and it is very annoying. I attempted to engage in discussions in article pages but VeryVerily always ignored them (within the past week or two as this arbitration moved along he has engaged in discussion a bit more, mostly with others).
One thing to consider is a time consideration. If I spent 10 minutes editting an article, and edit 6 articles, it takes me an hour to do all of that editting. It takes VeryVerily less than 30 seconds to revert all of that. What am I being asked to do, when someone goes through my edit history and reverts everything with a simple "rv", go to the discussion in all of those articles and say "You went through my edit history and reverted everything with rv, I just wanted to mention that in this articles discussion". When someone is engaged in that kind of behavior, it seems less about the article, and more about you. It is not an article dispute as discussion would be necessary, it is a personal vendetta. In light of this, tacking on my hour of work to his 30 seconds needed to wreck all that work, another however many minutes of fruitless posts to discussions seems pointless. I guess I will do this if Arb. says it's necessary but in light of what I said it seems silly.
What seems to make more sense when someone does this is to post to their talk page instead of the article discussion page, yes? My last post to his talk page [4] was removed with the comment "get off my talk page". Discussing his edit history reversion of me (which he does to others) on the discussion pages of those articles seems a waste of time (mine, not his, he is already hours ahead of me in wasting my time with his quick reverts). He doesn't seem to want me to post to his discussion page either, he says to get off of his talk page. So I really don't know what to do about this.
If you look over recent history, with the point I mentioned about where to discuss this - it seems when he goes through my edit history and reverts everything, the place to discuss this is his user page. But he says I should "get off of [his] talk page".
So blaming me for not wanting to discuss things with the sole user I have had a problem with on this, who tells me I am not welcome to discuss his reversions of me on multiple pages on his talk page - I just don't know what to do. I'm not sure what I should have done. I haven't posted to his discussion page since he said that - should I have ignored what he asked and attempted to have a discussion on his talk page after he threw me off of it? That would seem like I am trying to get into a fight with him it seems. I consider that noted edit by VeryVerily his attempt to close off any discussion with me, and I think if I had repeatedly written to his talk page against his wishes it would have made things worse. Should I have ignored his request, am I in error in getting off of his talk page as requested? I don't know, but I think I have only had discussion problems with this one user and he shut the discussion down. Other users who work on the same pages I often do like Fred Bauder do engage in discussion, and with others involved as well I have come to a consensus on various pages when he uses NPOV language and sources information. This is unlike VeryVerily where some of our arguments about a sentence goes back for months. I feel Fred Bauder does not always write from NPOV language, at least from my perspective, but at least he discusses things, follows the rules and sometimes, like water dripping on a stone, accepts a change. And most importantly adds references to things, which I have been very happy with. But that's just shown as a contrast - I probably go back and forth with VeryVerily and Fred Bauder the most, but Fred Bauder engages in discussion and follows Wikipedia rules while VeryVerily rejects my desire for discussion and breaks the rules. And I feel I attempted to engage in dialogue until VeryVerily threw me off his discussion page. Ruy Lopez 10:40, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
A huge amount of Hanpuk, I mean, Ruy Lopez's recent joke of a case hinges on this erased Talk comment. But it wasn't addressed to me; it was an attack on me meant for other users on my talk page, and I'm clearly referred to in the third person. It cannot be claimed to be an attempt to communicate with me, not that his idea of "talk" has been impressive over the last year anyway. Very Verily 12:44, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
VeryVerily, who despite an injunction against editting Cold War articles by the arbitrators, editted the History of South Korea article about the Gwangju massacre, which was very much a Cold War issue. At Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Gzornenplatz, Kevin Baas, Shorne, VeryVerily/Evidence he said:
I have a feeling he is going to be intepreting the injunction as being a very limited one. A Google search of Gwangju and "Cold War" yields 459 results. Gwangju was very much a Cold War incident - most of the government justifications for it, government justification for its own dictatorship and US support for the dictatorship were all in a Cold War context. But more broadly than this specifically, I think VeryVerily is interpreting this injunction as he desires to do so. He seems to be rationalizing how his edits are not Cold War related. Ruy Lopez 12:18, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It is up to the admin reviewing the edit to determine if it falls under the injunction. Speaking purely as a user, and not as an ArbCom member, I would say that any edit made to any article that deals with a divided Korea most certainly pertains to Communism (which is covered by the injunction). The relationship to the Cold War is much less clear. -- mav 17:43, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
These proposals are absolute insanity. I have been reverting trolling, vandalism, and flagrant POV pushing. I have responded to all the specific charges made against me. (And Ruy Lopez will simply create a new account.) Very Verily 08:51, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
And Michael Snow, who started this, did not ask for more than revert parole. Are you going to lay specific charges against me and give me the opportunity to defend myself or not? I responded to Raul's accusations. Very Verily
Also this has a bit of an ex post facto ring to it. The 3RR was never treated as a rule before, not under quickpolls (where not even the 24-hour ban was enforced against any opponent of mine), and not since. If you wish to declare it is an actual rule, as Jimbo is trying to do, then do that. Very Verily 08:57, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
How do you reconcile proposed principle #7 with (e.g.) remedy #5? Does vandalism not exist? Do edit summaries not often suffice? Are you seriously thinking through these rulings? (And I'm not even referring to the lack of cases of alleged wrongdoing by me I haven't already rebutted.) Very Verily 12:50, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Those proposals are raving lunacy. I have responded to Raul's allegations (above on this page), all of which are clearly false, and obviously he can not defend them (nor any of the other arbitrators). Also I have to again point out the whole Orwellianism of the Arbitration Committee's behaviour: when I months ago brought a case complaining about VV's reverting a page ten times within in an hour without making any comment on the talk page - i.e. the very things I am accused of now (violating the 3RR and not attempting dialogue) - my case was refused as "frivolous"! And now, although I never refused dialogue and only violated the 3RR in response to the lack of enforcement of the rule against others, I am now to be banned for two months! Gzornenplatz 17:22, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
Somehow If I am blocked, you will be sued. and If you block me without first talking to me on my talk page--more than once--It constitutes discrimination and I WILL sue not only the user who blocks me but also the Wikimedia Foundation. You have been warned! got onto my watchlist. I had nothing to do with these. I assume that someone is attempting either to impersonate or to harass me. Shorne 20:54, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
From the "proposed decision": "If Gzornenplatz, VeryVerily, or Shorne can demonstrate good behavior (abiding by wikipedia policies and generally sociable editing habits), in 6 months, they may request that the arbcom reduce or lift the revert parole against him."
This, like the rest of the "proposed decision", utterly fails to take into account the differences in behaviour between Shorne and VeryVerily (I'm leaving out Gzornenplatz because I haven't seen enough of his behaviour to pass judgement) that have already been demonstrated here. Unfairly, the blame is put equally on the shoulders of the two parties when it is Shorne who has made substantially all of the attempts at holding a discussion and VeryVerily who has rejected them; when it is Shorne who has been upholding the three-revert rule scrupulously for weeks (and only ever violated it when VeryVerily did) and VeryVerily who to this day refuses to recognise it as a rule or consider himself bound by it. Shorne 21:15, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Am I the only one to notice that the arbitrators sat around for more than a month without doing anything at all on this case, then suddenly put up a very suppressive "proposed decision" just hours after Gzornenplatz, VeryVerily, and I spoke out against the candidacies of some of them for reëlection? Shorne 23:25, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I, and very likely several other editors, would much appreciate it if Gzornenplatz was also blocked from all India-related articles, at least temporarily. A more detailed complaint can be found on the Evidence page, here. -- Simonides 00:43, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I want to say that I find what I'm reading to be much too harsh. These are all people who have devoted their time and energy to the project; even if they fight, surely they do more good than harm and don't deserve to be treated like this. A two month ban? Who would endure something like that, anyway? A person would most likely either start a new account or just leave forever. Everyking 01:43, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Two things. First of all, I want to clarify (not just related to this case, but in a general sense) who can enforce the ArbCom's decisions. Just as it is "inappropriate" for an Admin involved in a revert war to protect a page, I consider it inappropriate for an Admin who is a party in an Arbitration matter to enforce the ArbCom's ruling with respect to said matter. Now the question arises of who is "a party"... I mediated between several of the participants in this matter. Does that make me a party? Does this mean that I should avoid personally enforcing the ArbCom decision? I would like this cleared up.
Secondly, I want to voice my displeasure in the two month bans that have the stated explanation "For repeated violation of the three revert rule". While it is unquestioned that the parties have violated the 3RR countless times and in flagrant disregard for the "rule", the rule has NEVER been consistently enforced, and certainly not with this degree of force. I believe that the primary reason that the parties were engaging in the violation of the 3RR was because it was tacitly accepted. Therefore, to ban them for 2 months as a remedy seems extreme. Banning them for even a week would serve the purpose of alerting people that violating the 3RR will now result in a ban. If, as you seem to indicate, there is a larger reason for the length of the ban (being terribly disruptive and contrary) than the explanation for the ban should say so. As a Mediator and specifically one who mediated with these parties on these issues, I am officially opposed to a ban of such severe length with the sole justification of their violations of the 3RR. -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 19:01, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)
Dante, your argument appears to be that it is ok to behave inappropriately on Wikipedia, provided that you think you can get away with it, or other people are getting away with it. I would take the opposite viewpoint. Good contributors behave appropriately, regardless of what the consequences would be if they did not. Good contributors behave appropriately, regardless of how others are behaving. Martin 21:45, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I obviously consider the 1RR parole obscenely excessive, although I'm glad Jwr agrees on the excessiveness of the bans, which are uncalled for at any length. But ruling #5 is particularly bizarre. I revert a considerable amount of vandalism and "subvandalism". It's surely ridiculous to clutter up Talk pages with "justifications" of why "Bush is gay" should be reverted. I worry now that not even Jwrosenzweig has sufficiently thought through these votes. Very Verily 01:30, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Since the Arbitration Committee seems to have stalled again on this case, perhaps it's not too late for my input to catch the train before it leaves the station. Along with Dante Alighieri and Jwrosenzweig, I find two-month bans excessive here, even in response to the excessive reversion that was going on. While I realized that bans were a possibity in bringing this case, I avoided asking for any and did not anticipate that such lengthy bans would be contemplated, especially considering that the longest bans previously authorized for three revert rule violations were 24 hours. I still think based on the statements of the parties that revert paroles would have sufficed, and that given the new policy for enforcing the three revert rule, the effort to "send a message" by punishing past violators is unnecessary. Personally, I would rather have the Arbitration Committee declare an amnesty for past revert wars, while simultaneously asserting that future violations will be dealt with more severely. This would take advantage of the opportunity the new enforcement policy provides to make a clean break from the past - for everyone, arbitrators, admins, and editors all around. -- Michael Snow 06:11, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Several users - including one I didn't even know (Everyking) - have, both here and elsewhere, surfaced of their own initiative to state the obvious, that these "remedies" are wholly out of hand - including a penalty sixty times greater than any ever previously announced or enacted for my supposed crime. Perhaps you should heed the thoughtful words of these experienced users over whatever groupthink haunts the arbcom IRC channel.
A curious irony is that the arbs themselves have gotten a taste of what I have experienced from Shorne: the relentless personal attacks, the constant disruption, and the what can only be called trolling. And this is how he acts to people with authority over him. How do you think he treats common editors he disagrees with? How fruitful do you think "dialogue" with him has been? (I ask because I now strongly suspect the arbs have not examined the history of this conflict.)
Similarly, an arbitrator judging me now (Mav) has experience with "Ruy Lopez", and even once asked for my help [5] to stop one of his numerous efforts to ruin his "favorite" article ( Khmer Rouge). Of course, we wasted endless hours arguing these points, quoting citations, filling talk pages - only to have him disappear each time and then resurface weeks or months later with a new account to try it all again. To scorn me for not "discussing" over and over again his unending stream of garbage is lunacy.
To repeat the equal lunacy of the "finding of fact" that I should be in dialogue with Turrican, a vandal who proudly announced his intent to revert all my edits, would be redundant. Yet there sits that finding, damning me for not cheerfully taking abuse no self-respecting editor would take.
Indeed I have refuted point by point these thoughtless "findings of fact". As someone once said on de about Gz, it's been as fruitful as talking to my cat - as these accusations stand defiantly unaltered, with never so much as a peep from the arbs.
I should note that the focus hitherto has been on the outrageous and extended bans, but they serve as a lightning rod only as being the most offensive of the "remedies". All the restrictions on me are offensive and wrong, for largely the same reasons. So are the humiliating and pointless "temporary" injunctions I have been compelled to labor under, but in spite of which I have continued to do good and useful work to improve Wikipedia, as I have from the beginning.
Treating a top-notch contributor like a common criminal is perhaps most offensive of all. I hope the election changes these attitudes. In any case, it would be a dereliction of your duty and a betrayal of our trust to impose these rulings. Very Verily 08:27, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It is probably too late now, since there is already a motion to close this case, but I would like the Arbitration Committee members review the edit history of Economy of the United States. I find Ruy Lopez's edits to be just pure POV-pushing that also disturbs normal page maintenance. See how he blindly reverted corrections to (defunct) external links and changes to category names that was discussed weeks before in cfd-page. Of course, "discussion" with him in talk page does not lead to anything. Note also that he broke the three revert rule on Dec 15th. I urge the arbitrators to consider his actions in Wikipedia more closely before closing this case; otherwise we will see more of his disturbive edits in future, I'm afraid. jni 11:58, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
If I may observe:
Remedy 5: 5) Gzornenplatz, Shorne, and VeryVerily, and Ruy Lopez are required to discuss all reverts on the relavant talk page, with the goal of finding mutually acceptable compromises.
Enforcement 2: 2) If Gzornenplatz, Shorne, or VeryVerily should revert a page without discussing it on the relevant talk page, an administrator may ban him for up to 24 hours.
Ruy Lopez is required to discuss his reverts (as the rest), but he may not be banned for violating the remedy. Maybe it's a casual omission, which occurred because Ruy Lopez was included in the case later? At least I can't see any explanation for the difference between Ruy Lopez and the rest in this particular point. Boraczek 13:53, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I noticed that there have been 4 close votes, the threshold, and that on WP:RFAr the case is listed as closed. However, the main arb page still says "case open" at the top, and I have not been notified on my user talk page that the case is closed and the temp. inj "whilst arb. is ongoing" is thus expired. Kevin Baas | talk 21:54, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)
I have to ask: Why are Shorne and VeryVerily being restricted from German and Polish articles? As far as I know, Gzornenplatz is the only editor whose activity in that area has been troublesome. —No-One Jones (m) 02:05, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Is Raul going to substantiate his claims?
I'm afraid that I must partly agree with the sentiment that the rulings and proposals are being a little sloppy with the evidence. For example:
I hope the arbitrators will take these points into consideration. -- Michael Snow 21:23, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Is the "finding of fact" that I "made no attempt at dialogue" based on the same quality of research that held that I had any role at all in the German/Polish naming edit wars? Very Verily 21:35, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
(post edit conflict with Raul above)
Finally, some specifics to refute point by point! Of course, this all needs to be looked at against the background that by the time many of those disputes started, Shorne was already well-established as a troublemaker and Ruy Lopez as a sockpuppet of an old enemy of Wikipedia:
Hopefully this will put these accusations to rest. Very Verily 09:32, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC) (updates Very Verily 09:38, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC))
Please also collect the following as findings of fact (no attempt at a dialogue):
This is biased. It fails to mention several salient points:
I ask that this proposed finding of fact be revised to include this important information. Shorne 04:46, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
VeryVerily has removed my comments from this page twice. I know that he can't control his penchant for destructive behaviour, but please do not allow him to do this. Shorne 09:38, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Findings of fact says:
"During many of those disputes...Ruy Lopez, and VeryVerily made no attempt at a dialogue."
My comments on this are firstly that, barring discussion of VeryVerily for a moment, I always attempt dialogue with other users when I have a dispute. The only user I could theoretically be accused of not attempting dialogue with is VeryVerily. So I would like it noted that I have only a possible failure at discussion with one user, a user who it seems has failures with many more people. I think VeryVerily's disregard of dialogue is much more widespread to me, and linked to many more users, so I don't think I should be put at the same level as he is with this.
My introduction to VeryVerily was he went through my edit history and reverted all of my recent changes. No talk page comments, no discussion page comments, not even edit page summaries, just "rv", "rv", "rv", "rv" in article after article. I see many users have complained about this. I don't know if there are any rules about this but only VeryVerily seems to do this on a wide scale and it is very annoying. I attempted to engage in discussions in article pages but VeryVerily always ignored them (within the past week or two as this arbitration moved along he has engaged in discussion a bit more, mostly with others).
One thing to consider is a time consideration. If I spent 10 minutes editting an article, and edit 6 articles, it takes me an hour to do all of that editting. It takes VeryVerily less than 30 seconds to revert all of that. What am I being asked to do, when someone goes through my edit history and reverts everything with a simple "rv", go to the discussion in all of those articles and say "You went through my edit history and reverted everything with rv, I just wanted to mention that in this articles discussion". When someone is engaged in that kind of behavior, it seems less about the article, and more about you. It is not an article dispute as discussion would be necessary, it is a personal vendetta. In light of this, tacking on my hour of work to his 30 seconds needed to wreck all that work, another however many minutes of fruitless posts to discussions seems pointless. I guess I will do this if Arb. says it's necessary but in light of what I said it seems silly.
What seems to make more sense when someone does this is to post to their talk page instead of the article discussion page, yes? My last post to his talk page [4] was removed with the comment "get off my talk page". Discussing his edit history reversion of me (which he does to others) on the discussion pages of those articles seems a waste of time (mine, not his, he is already hours ahead of me in wasting my time with his quick reverts). He doesn't seem to want me to post to his discussion page either, he says to get off of his talk page. So I really don't know what to do about this.
If you look over recent history, with the point I mentioned about where to discuss this - it seems when he goes through my edit history and reverts everything, the place to discuss this is his user page. But he says I should "get off of [his] talk page".
So blaming me for not wanting to discuss things with the sole user I have had a problem with on this, who tells me I am not welcome to discuss his reversions of me on multiple pages on his talk page - I just don't know what to do. I'm not sure what I should have done. I haven't posted to his discussion page since he said that - should I have ignored what he asked and attempted to have a discussion on his talk page after he threw me off of it? That would seem like I am trying to get into a fight with him it seems. I consider that noted edit by VeryVerily his attempt to close off any discussion with me, and I think if I had repeatedly written to his talk page against his wishes it would have made things worse. Should I have ignored his request, am I in error in getting off of his talk page as requested? I don't know, but I think I have only had discussion problems with this one user and he shut the discussion down. Other users who work on the same pages I often do like Fred Bauder do engage in discussion, and with others involved as well I have come to a consensus on various pages when he uses NPOV language and sources information. This is unlike VeryVerily where some of our arguments about a sentence goes back for months. I feel Fred Bauder does not always write from NPOV language, at least from my perspective, but at least he discusses things, follows the rules and sometimes, like water dripping on a stone, accepts a change. And most importantly adds references to things, which I have been very happy with. But that's just shown as a contrast - I probably go back and forth with VeryVerily and Fred Bauder the most, but Fred Bauder engages in discussion and follows Wikipedia rules while VeryVerily rejects my desire for discussion and breaks the rules. And I feel I attempted to engage in dialogue until VeryVerily threw me off his discussion page. Ruy Lopez 10:40, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
A huge amount of Hanpuk, I mean, Ruy Lopez's recent joke of a case hinges on this erased Talk comment. But it wasn't addressed to me; it was an attack on me meant for other users on my talk page, and I'm clearly referred to in the third person. It cannot be claimed to be an attempt to communicate with me, not that his idea of "talk" has been impressive over the last year anyway. Very Verily 12:44, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
VeryVerily, who despite an injunction against editting Cold War articles by the arbitrators, editted the History of South Korea article about the Gwangju massacre, which was very much a Cold War issue. At Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Gzornenplatz, Kevin Baas, Shorne, VeryVerily/Evidence he said:
I have a feeling he is going to be intepreting the injunction as being a very limited one. A Google search of Gwangju and "Cold War" yields 459 results. Gwangju was very much a Cold War incident - most of the government justifications for it, government justification for its own dictatorship and US support for the dictatorship were all in a Cold War context. But more broadly than this specifically, I think VeryVerily is interpreting this injunction as he desires to do so. He seems to be rationalizing how his edits are not Cold War related. Ruy Lopez 12:18, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It is up to the admin reviewing the edit to determine if it falls under the injunction. Speaking purely as a user, and not as an ArbCom member, I would say that any edit made to any article that deals with a divided Korea most certainly pertains to Communism (which is covered by the injunction). The relationship to the Cold War is much less clear. -- mav 17:43, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
These proposals are absolute insanity. I have been reverting trolling, vandalism, and flagrant POV pushing. I have responded to all the specific charges made against me. (And Ruy Lopez will simply create a new account.) Very Verily 08:51, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
And Michael Snow, who started this, did not ask for more than revert parole. Are you going to lay specific charges against me and give me the opportunity to defend myself or not? I responded to Raul's accusations. Very Verily
Also this has a bit of an ex post facto ring to it. The 3RR was never treated as a rule before, not under quickpolls (where not even the 24-hour ban was enforced against any opponent of mine), and not since. If you wish to declare it is an actual rule, as Jimbo is trying to do, then do that. Very Verily 08:57, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
How do you reconcile proposed principle #7 with (e.g.) remedy #5? Does vandalism not exist? Do edit summaries not often suffice? Are you seriously thinking through these rulings? (And I'm not even referring to the lack of cases of alleged wrongdoing by me I haven't already rebutted.) Very Verily 12:50, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Those proposals are raving lunacy. I have responded to Raul's allegations (above on this page), all of which are clearly false, and obviously he can not defend them (nor any of the other arbitrators). Also I have to again point out the whole Orwellianism of the Arbitration Committee's behaviour: when I months ago brought a case complaining about VV's reverting a page ten times within in an hour without making any comment on the talk page - i.e. the very things I am accused of now (violating the 3RR and not attempting dialogue) - my case was refused as "frivolous"! And now, although I never refused dialogue and only violated the 3RR in response to the lack of enforcement of the rule against others, I am now to be banned for two months! Gzornenplatz 17:22, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
Somehow If I am blocked, you will be sued. and If you block me without first talking to me on my talk page--more than once--It constitutes discrimination and I WILL sue not only the user who blocks me but also the Wikimedia Foundation. You have been warned! got onto my watchlist. I had nothing to do with these. I assume that someone is attempting either to impersonate or to harass me. Shorne 20:54, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
From the "proposed decision": "If Gzornenplatz, VeryVerily, or Shorne can demonstrate good behavior (abiding by wikipedia policies and generally sociable editing habits), in 6 months, they may request that the arbcom reduce or lift the revert parole against him."
This, like the rest of the "proposed decision", utterly fails to take into account the differences in behaviour between Shorne and VeryVerily (I'm leaving out Gzornenplatz because I haven't seen enough of his behaviour to pass judgement) that have already been demonstrated here. Unfairly, the blame is put equally on the shoulders of the two parties when it is Shorne who has made substantially all of the attempts at holding a discussion and VeryVerily who has rejected them; when it is Shorne who has been upholding the three-revert rule scrupulously for weeks (and only ever violated it when VeryVerily did) and VeryVerily who to this day refuses to recognise it as a rule or consider himself bound by it. Shorne 21:15, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Am I the only one to notice that the arbitrators sat around for more than a month without doing anything at all on this case, then suddenly put up a very suppressive "proposed decision" just hours after Gzornenplatz, VeryVerily, and I spoke out against the candidacies of some of them for reëlection? Shorne 23:25, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I, and very likely several other editors, would much appreciate it if Gzornenplatz was also blocked from all India-related articles, at least temporarily. A more detailed complaint can be found on the Evidence page, here. -- Simonides 00:43, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I want to say that I find what I'm reading to be much too harsh. These are all people who have devoted their time and energy to the project; even if they fight, surely they do more good than harm and don't deserve to be treated like this. A two month ban? Who would endure something like that, anyway? A person would most likely either start a new account or just leave forever. Everyking 01:43, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Two things. First of all, I want to clarify (not just related to this case, but in a general sense) who can enforce the ArbCom's decisions. Just as it is "inappropriate" for an Admin involved in a revert war to protect a page, I consider it inappropriate for an Admin who is a party in an Arbitration matter to enforce the ArbCom's ruling with respect to said matter. Now the question arises of who is "a party"... I mediated between several of the participants in this matter. Does that make me a party? Does this mean that I should avoid personally enforcing the ArbCom decision? I would like this cleared up.
Secondly, I want to voice my displeasure in the two month bans that have the stated explanation "For repeated violation of the three revert rule". While it is unquestioned that the parties have violated the 3RR countless times and in flagrant disregard for the "rule", the rule has NEVER been consistently enforced, and certainly not with this degree of force. I believe that the primary reason that the parties were engaging in the violation of the 3RR was because it was tacitly accepted. Therefore, to ban them for 2 months as a remedy seems extreme. Banning them for even a week would serve the purpose of alerting people that violating the 3RR will now result in a ban. If, as you seem to indicate, there is a larger reason for the length of the ban (being terribly disruptive and contrary) than the explanation for the ban should say so. As a Mediator and specifically one who mediated with these parties on these issues, I am officially opposed to a ban of such severe length with the sole justification of their violations of the 3RR. -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 19:01, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)
Dante, your argument appears to be that it is ok to behave inappropriately on Wikipedia, provided that you think you can get away with it, or other people are getting away with it. I would take the opposite viewpoint. Good contributors behave appropriately, regardless of what the consequences would be if they did not. Good contributors behave appropriately, regardless of how others are behaving. Martin 21:45, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I obviously consider the 1RR parole obscenely excessive, although I'm glad Jwr agrees on the excessiveness of the bans, which are uncalled for at any length. But ruling #5 is particularly bizarre. I revert a considerable amount of vandalism and "subvandalism". It's surely ridiculous to clutter up Talk pages with "justifications" of why "Bush is gay" should be reverted. I worry now that not even Jwrosenzweig has sufficiently thought through these votes. Very Verily 01:30, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Since the Arbitration Committee seems to have stalled again on this case, perhaps it's not too late for my input to catch the train before it leaves the station. Along with Dante Alighieri and Jwrosenzweig, I find two-month bans excessive here, even in response to the excessive reversion that was going on. While I realized that bans were a possibity in bringing this case, I avoided asking for any and did not anticipate that such lengthy bans would be contemplated, especially considering that the longest bans previously authorized for three revert rule violations were 24 hours. I still think based on the statements of the parties that revert paroles would have sufficed, and that given the new policy for enforcing the three revert rule, the effort to "send a message" by punishing past violators is unnecessary. Personally, I would rather have the Arbitration Committee declare an amnesty for past revert wars, while simultaneously asserting that future violations will be dealt with more severely. This would take advantage of the opportunity the new enforcement policy provides to make a clean break from the past - for everyone, arbitrators, admins, and editors all around. -- Michael Snow 06:11, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Several users - including one I didn't even know (Everyking) - have, both here and elsewhere, surfaced of their own initiative to state the obvious, that these "remedies" are wholly out of hand - including a penalty sixty times greater than any ever previously announced or enacted for my supposed crime. Perhaps you should heed the thoughtful words of these experienced users over whatever groupthink haunts the arbcom IRC channel.
A curious irony is that the arbs themselves have gotten a taste of what I have experienced from Shorne: the relentless personal attacks, the constant disruption, and the what can only be called trolling. And this is how he acts to people with authority over him. How do you think he treats common editors he disagrees with? How fruitful do you think "dialogue" with him has been? (I ask because I now strongly suspect the arbs have not examined the history of this conflict.)
Similarly, an arbitrator judging me now (Mav) has experience with "Ruy Lopez", and even once asked for my help [5] to stop one of his numerous efforts to ruin his "favorite" article ( Khmer Rouge). Of course, we wasted endless hours arguing these points, quoting citations, filling talk pages - only to have him disappear each time and then resurface weeks or months later with a new account to try it all again. To scorn me for not "discussing" over and over again his unending stream of garbage is lunacy.
To repeat the equal lunacy of the "finding of fact" that I should be in dialogue with Turrican, a vandal who proudly announced his intent to revert all my edits, would be redundant. Yet there sits that finding, damning me for not cheerfully taking abuse no self-respecting editor would take.
Indeed I have refuted point by point these thoughtless "findings of fact". As someone once said on de about Gz, it's been as fruitful as talking to my cat - as these accusations stand defiantly unaltered, with never so much as a peep from the arbs.
I should note that the focus hitherto has been on the outrageous and extended bans, but they serve as a lightning rod only as being the most offensive of the "remedies". All the restrictions on me are offensive and wrong, for largely the same reasons. So are the humiliating and pointless "temporary" injunctions I have been compelled to labor under, but in spite of which I have continued to do good and useful work to improve Wikipedia, as I have from the beginning.
Treating a top-notch contributor like a common criminal is perhaps most offensive of all. I hope the election changes these attitudes. In any case, it would be a dereliction of your duty and a betrayal of our trust to impose these rulings. Very Verily 08:27, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It is probably too late now, since there is already a motion to close this case, but I would like the Arbitration Committee members review the edit history of Economy of the United States. I find Ruy Lopez's edits to be just pure POV-pushing that also disturbs normal page maintenance. See how he blindly reverted corrections to (defunct) external links and changes to category names that was discussed weeks before in cfd-page. Of course, "discussion" with him in talk page does not lead to anything. Note also that he broke the three revert rule on Dec 15th. I urge the arbitrators to consider his actions in Wikipedia more closely before closing this case; otherwise we will see more of his disturbive edits in future, I'm afraid. jni 11:58, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
If I may observe:
Remedy 5: 5) Gzornenplatz, Shorne, and VeryVerily, and Ruy Lopez are required to discuss all reverts on the relavant talk page, with the goal of finding mutually acceptable compromises.
Enforcement 2: 2) If Gzornenplatz, Shorne, or VeryVerily should revert a page without discussing it on the relevant talk page, an administrator may ban him for up to 24 hours.
Ruy Lopez is required to discuss his reverts (as the rest), but he may not be banned for violating the remedy. Maybe it's a casual omission, which occurred because Ruy Lopez was included in the case later? At least I can't see any explanation for the difference between Ruy Lopez and the rest in this particular point. Boraczek 13:53, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I noticed that there have been 4 close votes, the threshold, and that on WP:RFAr the case is listed as closed. However, the main arb page still says "case open" at the top, and I have not been notified on my user talk page that the case is closed and the temp. inj "whilst arb. is ongoing" is thus expired. Kevin Baas | talk 21:54, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)